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Arcontos
19-01-2011, 04:17
So here is the situation: at the start of my friend's turn I activated the Storm Banner in my unit of Stormvermin, then during his magic phase he cast Vaul's Unmaking on the Stormvermin unit.

Our question is whether or not the Storm Banner can be destroyed by the spell and have its already activated ability negated?

Trains_Get_Robbed
19-01-2011, 05:02
Yes, its destroyed. The banner is what is causing the winds and the hectic shenangains that are about, no?

smithers
19-01-2011, 08:37
This is certainly a reasonable interpretation but I can't tell if it is anything more than that.

The same issue arises if the banner were captured/fled. Do "activated" effects depend on the item once activated? It's a general question that should be dealt with by the rule set.

Masque
19-01-2011, 09:04
If the Storm Banner effect simply worked all the time (no activating and wearing out) then Vaul's Unmaking/capturing/destroying would obviously end the effect. I see no reason that a built in impermanancy should somehow make it more resilient to these effects.

Arcontos
19-01-2011, 16:33
Thanks everyone!

smithers
19-01-2011, 18:16
If the Storm Banner effect simply worked all the time (no activating and wearing out) then Vaul's Unmaking/capturing/destroying would obviously end the effect. I see no reason that a built in impermanancy should somehow make it more resilient to these effects.

The argument would be that like the folding fortress, activating this item creates an effect that is not maintained by the item in any way.

Granted the storm is not a model so this is not covered by the new HE faq entry but I think that entry lends some support to the idea that activated items are irrelevant one used. Should be Faqd' IMO

Keller
19-01-2011, 19:32
The argument would be that like the folding fortress, activating this item creates an effect that is not maintained by the item in any way.

Granted the storm is not a model so this is not covered by the new HE faq entry but I think that entry lends some support to the idea that activated items are irrelevant one used. Should be Faqd' IMO

I would concur with this. The banner "summons" the storm causing the effect, in the same way that the Folding Fortress spawns the watch tower to be placed. As per the FAQ, once the item in question has been activated, destroying it would have no bearing in it's effect. This seems to fit the case of the Storm Banner, to me.

RogueCanadian
21-01-2011, 13:50
I understand the folding fortress being immune to this effect, as the item comes down to adding another piece of permanent terrain to the board. On the other hand the Stormbanner, at some intrinsic level, maintains its effect.

senoja
21-01-2011, 17:25
I understand the folding fortress being immune to this effect, as the item comes down to adding another piece of permanent terrain to the board. On the other hand the Stormbanner, at some intrinsic level, maintains its effect.

well its the same thing rele the fortress is still a magic item its just for the corse of the battle, the storm banner summons the storm the storm isnt perminant by any means and last the remander of the battle if the banner had a choice to end the effect then i coulds see it vanishing when the item was destroyed otherwise the storm carrries on until its run its corse and the banner regains its magic over the next few days

tmarichards
21-01-2011, 18:31
The Storm Banner is very particular about how the effect ends, there's nothing in the rules to suggest the storm ends if the unit is killed or the banner is destroyed once it has been activated.

luntan
21-01-2011, 18:40
The Storm Banner is very particular about how the effect ends, there's nothing in the rules to suggest the storm ends if the unit is killed or the banner is destroyed once it has been activated.

And there´s nothing in the rules that says it continues when destroyed either. ;)

senoja
21-01-2011, 21:14
And there´s nothing in the rules that says it continues when destroyed either. ;)

but it does state that it last s the entire game so therefore in order for the banners destruction to cause the ending of the effect the rule governing the fact it last the entire game would require a written exception

tmarichards
21-01-2011, 21:26
There's nothing in the rules to say it continues when the unit performs a swift reform.

havoc626
21-01-2011, 23:00
I could see this going either way with the rules, although I lean more towards that, if the Stormbanner was already activated, then the only way that it will end is how it is said in the rules, as the ability isn't being maintained by the banner, only activated.

Granted that it doesn't say that the ability only ends under the conditions mentioned, it doesn't say otherwise, it is silent on the issue of it.

I'd say talk to the usual group you play with and work out a house ruling until GW give an answer (if they ever do).

senoja
22-01-2011, 02:27
There's nothing in the rules to say it continues when the unit performs a swift reform.

Sarcasm??????

luntan
22-01-2011, 07:09
If it should continue after destroyed it would be in the rules for the banner. Something like the effect continues even after unit/banner is destroyed. Else the effect ends with the banner destroyed.

bert n ernie
22-01-2011, 11:38
The way I have played it in the past is that it auto-fails the next test it must take for remaining in play.
This isn't right, but it's a happy medium between two possible rights.

tmarichards
22-01-2011, 13:01
Sarcasm??????

Yup, in response to being told there's nothing in the rules to say it continues after being destroyed. My point was that if you start trying to go down that route, there's no telling what silliness can ensue.

Damocles8
22-01-2011, 13:55
Yup, in response to being told there's nothing in the rules to say it continues after being destroyed. My point was that if you start trying to go down that route, there's no telling what silliness can ensue.

You could say that for almost all magic banners then, unit has Banner of Flaming, they have fire attacks, after the banner is removed it doesn't say the effect stops.

However common sense dictates that it does. Admittedly the Storm Banner is different, but I think we all can agree it could use a FAQ

tmarichards
22-01-2011, 15:57
Flaming banner and Razor Standard are actually written well enough to not require people to use common sense (in my opinion, if a rule requires people to have to interpret it it's not been written well enough)- read the entry, it's very clear that the effect is only passed on as long as the banner is in the unit, most of the common banners refer to 'models in a unit with X banner gain Y'- no banner would therefore mean no benefit.

My argument is basically that if something is very clear and specific (rationality doesn't really come into it) about how the effect ends, then wihtout an FAQ explicitly saying otherwise those are the only scenarios in which it ends- similar to how a Remains in play spell ends if the mage dies, but an augment or hex spell does not.

senoja
22-01-2011, 22:48
^^^^this plus one^^^^

Foxbat
23-01-2011, 00:48
The Storm Banner is a magic item that causes a magical effect that once activated is maintained by the banner until the banner stops maintaining it as defined in the rules for magic item. In fact, we can tell that the banner maintains the effect as in the rule for the banner itself it is stated “...- the effect of the banner will end on a D6 roll ...” (Skaven Army Book, pg 111).

Given that the banner is no longer a magic item when “unmade” by Vaul’s Unmaking Spell as it has been “nullified” and has lost “all of its magical properties” (refer to HE Army Book, pg 47), the banner would no longer be able to maintain the effect, so the effect would stop immediately.

senoja
23-01-2011, 03:15
The Storm Banner is a magic item that causes a magical effect that once activated is maintained by the banner until the banner stops maintaining it as defined in the rules for magic item. In fact, we can tell that the banner maintains the effect as in the rule for the banner itself it is stated “...- the effect of the banner will end on a D6 roll ...” (Skaven Army Book, pg 111).

Given that the banner is no longer a magic item when “unmade” by Vaul’s Unmaking Spell as it has been “nullified” and has lost “all of its magical properties” (refer to HE Army Book, pg 47), the banner would no longer be able to maintain the effect, so the effect would stop immediately.

however there is no (or if the bearer is slain) notation within the storm banner rules it very specificly stastes how and when the effect may or may not end and those are the only rules pertaining to such, almost every other banner has an effect along the lines of "models in a unit with" requirement and therefore if the banner is no longer in the unit they no longer gain any benefit from it, there is no need for a statment of the effect ending because there is a requirment for it to begin with...storm banner has no such requirment other than it have being activated (past tense) and the effect of its end specified only by a dice roll, therefore even once removed from the game the banners effect still passes the requirment for it to have been activated and is the only requirment for the effect to be in effect

Damocles8
23-01-2011, 14:49
however there is no (or if the bearer is slain) notation within the storm banner rules it very specificly stastes how and when the effect may or may not end and those are the only rules pertaining to such, almost every other banner has an effect along the lines of "models in a unit with" requirement and therefore if the banner is no longer in the unit they no longer gain any benefit from it, there is no need for a statment of the effect ending because there is a requirment for it to begin with...storm banner has no such requirment other than it have being activated (past tense) and the effect of its end specified only by a dice roll, therefore even once removed from the game the banners effect still passes the requirment for it to have been activated and is the only requirment for the effect to be in effect

Ok circle arguments aren't going to be helpful, it needs a FAQ, anything else is a waste of time.

Foxbat
23-01-2011, 17:24
however there is no (or if the bearer is slain) notation within the storm banner rules it very specificly stastes how and when the effect may or may not end and those are the only rules pertaining to such, almost every other banner has an effect along the lines of "models in a unit with" requirement and therefore if the banner is no longer in the unit they no longer gain any benefit from it, there is no need for a statment of the effect ending because there is a requirment for it to begin with...storm banner has no such requirment other than it have being activated (past tense) and the effect of its end specified only by a dice roll, therefore even once removed from the game the banners effect still passes the requirment for it to have been activated and is the only requirment for the effect to be in effectSo, it appears that you have conceded the point relative to the OP's question, Vaul's Unmaking cast upon an activated Storm Banner causes the effect to end.

As for the rest of your comment, magic items stop working once there is no model permitted to carry the item once the current model carrying it is eliminated from play. This means that effect of the banner would stop once the BSB is eliminated as no other model is permitted to pick it up.

Now, if you attempted to put forward your unorthodox argument, I would simply ask that we roll off and if you won I would then advise you that my Banner of Sorcery would also fall under the same rule so even if you eliminate the unit with this banner I will continue to still enjoy the benefit of this banner's effect as the rules for this banner do not include the “models in the unit” clause. Works for me...

tmarichards
23-01-2011, 17:53
Except that the banner of sorcery clearly only works as long as it is 'alive' (so to speak), whereas the Storm Banner is completely different.

Would you also argue that it ends if the unit pursues off the table then returns in a subsequent turn? There's nothing in the rules to support this, but it's exactly the same as arguing the effect ends if the unit is destroyed.

Foxbat
23-01-2011, 20:30
At this time it seems we have come to an answer on many of the questions relative to the Storm banner:
1) The effect stops when the carrying model is eliminated from play and no other model can pick it up;
2) Casting Vaul’s Unmaking on an active Storm Banner causes the banner’s effect to immediately stop; &
3) Upon a unit containing an active Storm Banner fleeing off the board, the banner’s effect stops.

The only real question we have now is how to handle a pursuing unit that contains an active Storm Banner on the player’s turn that it is not on the board. There is no clear answer here. Until we get an FAQ to this question, I would suggest that players could roll off with the outcome being:
- The banner’s effect is still present and you would test to see if the banner’s effects ends as usual; or
- The banner’s effect is not present and no test is made to see of the banner’s effect ends, but the effect returns when the unit with the banner returns to the table along with subsequent tests to see when the effect ends.

senoja
23-01-2011, 20:45
having been able to get hold of the skaven rule book i see the wording of the storm banner is not what i though and yes its destruction/loss would end the effect (i was under the impression it was a 1 use only item)

with regards to it leaving the table and returning i would likly b on the side of the effect persisting if only for simplicitys sake

tmarichards
23-01-2011, 21:11
It has been FAQd to be a one use only item.

senoja
23-01-2011, 22:40
ok lol well if its a one use item then the effect stands as it is and only ends how its rules state it does as with any one use item the fact it is a standard makes no difference

for example the plethora of one use items that for example make a unit immune to psychology for one turn or cause fear for one turn they last until the end of that turn regardless of the items death or destruction do they not,

the storm banners effect can only end as specified within its rules it simply does not require an faq

an effect that last for x amount of turns does so regardless of weather the item is destroyed before then. items with the requirment of the item or banner simply being there end when the banner/item is no longer there

i dont see where any connfusion has come from (except my own spanning from it being errated to one use only )

Masque
23-01-2011, 23:28
ok lol well if its a one use item then the effect stands as it is and only ends how its rules state it does as with any one use item the fact it is a standard makes no difference

for example the plethora of one use items that for example make a unit immune to psychology for one turn or cause fear for one turn they last until the end of that turn regardless of the items death or destruction do they not,

the storm banners effect can only end as specified within its rules it simply does not require an faq

an effect that last for x amount of turns does so regardless of weather the item is destroyed before then. items with the requirment of the item or banner simply being there end when the banner/item is no longer there

i dont see where any connfusion has come from (except my own spanning from it being errated to one use only )

While your argument seems very reasonable the confusion stems from the fact the rules don't actually say this or anything else on the subject.

senoja
23-01-2011, 23:41
While your argument seems very reasonable the confusion stems from the fact the rules don't actually say this or anything else on the subject.

care to elaborate more on your piont ???

all magic item state a requirment for there effects to be active if this requirment is not met then the effect is removed UNLESS there is the case that an item explicitly states how its effects end

the only thing you need to remember is AB>BRB

Masque
24-01-2011, 00:45
care to elaborate more on your piont ???

all magic item state a requirment for there effects to be active if this requirment is not met then the effect is removed UNLESS there is the case that an item explicitly states how its effects end

the only thing you need to remember is AB>BRB

While I'm tempted to believe in your interpretation the rules do not actually tell us that the destruction of a one use item doesn't end it's effect. It'd be nice if they did say that, or the opposite, because then there wouldn't be this confusion. See where I'm coming from now?

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-01-2011, 01:50
Wow, really? This is pathetic, Foxbat has summed it up perfectly.

The effect isn't extrinsic, it comes from the BsB, the item is destroyed it the storm should be gone, assuming it is a storm. I picture a giant hole open up on the banner itself when it is working, and when hit with Vaul's boom its gone.

By the opposing sides arguement the logic would have the effect stay in play the rest of the game even if for example, the BsB was run down the very turn he activated -unless rolling the needed +4.

I mean if you want to play it this way, sure thats fine, but I'm getting +d3 P.D every turn then from BoS, whther the BsB or S.B is alive or not. ;)

tmarichards
24-01-2011, 02:21
Wow, really? This is pathetic,

So is going on a forum and acting superior. Simply because you do not agree with someone's viewpoint does not make it pathetic.

There have been valid points made on both sides of the argument, with a general consensus that it needs an FAQ. Grow up and stop being obnoxious, unless you have anything new to add to the thread which is already going round in circles.

senoja
24-01-2011, 08:15
Wow, really? This is pathetic, Foxbat has summed it up perfectly.

The effect isn't extrinsic, it comes from the BsB, the item is destroyed it the storm should be gone, assuming it is a storm. I picture a giant hole open up on the banner itself when it is working, and when hit with Vaul's boom its gone.

By the opposing sides arguement the logic would have the effect stay in play the rest of the game even if for example, the BsB was run down the very turn he activated -unless rolling the needed +4.

I mean if you want to play it this way, sure thats fine, but I'm getting +d3 P.D every turn then from BoS, whther the BsB or S.B is alive or not. ;)

for a start the storm banner has precedence to last after the banner destruction as its A a one use item and B it specificly states how long the effect lasts and how it ends.

ive already explained why using banner of sorcery as an opposing arguement is flawed as its clear within the wirding of its special rule.

items and spells for that matter that have a specified time lenth last that long regardless of the character death it may not state that, but as these items state there own terms for the effect to end then that is the only way it does so over righting the basic rules.

would a one use item that causes a unit to become immune to psychology for "one turn" lose this ability half way through a round of combat,,,no! because it states it lasts for "one turn"

does melkothes mystifing miasma lose all its effect if the wizard is killed ,,,no! because it states it lasts for "one turn"

if an item states its own rules for its effects to end then those rules are considered an exception to the basic rules especialy when printed in an army book

as i stated before army book trumps ruebook

'@ masque : yes i see where your comin from i like to think its gw puttin to much faith in there players :P but its just bad wrighting

antihelten
24-01-2011, 08:58
for a start the storm banner has precedence to last after the banner destruction as its A a one use item and B it specificly states how long the effect lasts and how it ends.

ive already explained why using banner of sorcery as an opposing arguement is flawed as its clear within the wirding of its special rule.

items and spells for that matter that have a specified time lenth last that long regardless of the character death it may not state that, but as these items state there own terms for the effect to end then that is the only way it does so over righting the basic rules...

But if you go by B as a general rule, ie an item which has rules for how long it's effect can last will only follow those rules and not external things like vaul's unmaking.

Then that would mean that using vaul's unmaking on for instance Stone of the Crystal Mere would have no effect, and imho that makes no sense.

senoja
24-01-2011, 11:17
But if you go by B as a general rule, ie an item which has rules for how long it's effect can last will only follow those rules and not external things like vaul's unmaking.

Then that would mean that using vaul's unmaking on for instance Stone of the Crystal Mere would have no effect, and imho that makes no sense.

it would help if you quoted the rules to stone of crystal mere and gave a reason why it would make no sense

EDIT having found the item your talkin about im unsure as to why you even think its relevant the item is not one use only, has no activation, and states no duration, the statement declaring it is lost if it is ever failed is merely an additional rule govenering how the item destroys itself through failing the save which is not the same as an items activated effect ending its duration the crystal is a "bearer gains" item therfore the effect is lost if for whatever reason the bearer is no longer carrying the item, its the simple use of common sense

would you argue that a wuizard using svergers hex scroll a one use item turning a wizard into a frog (which has its own rules for its duration) and is subsequently killed end the enemy wizard transformation , i think not

antihelten
24-01-2011, 18:07
it would help if you quoted the rules to stone of crystal mere and gave a reason why it would make no sense

EDIT having found the item your talkin about im unsure as to why you even think its relevant the item is not one use only, has no activation, and states no duration, the statement declaring it is lost if it is ever failed is merely an additional rule govenering how the item destroys itself through failing the save which is not the same as an items activated effect ending its duration the crystal is a "bearer gains" item therfore the effect is lost if for whatever reason the bearer is no longer carrying the item, its the simple use of common sense

would you argue that a wuizard using svergers hex scroll a one use item turning a wizard into a frog (which has its own rules for its duration) and is subsequently killed end the enemy wizard transformation , i think not

I don't really see why an item being one use or not has any bearing on it's duration of effect. One use only means just that, that you can only use it once, nothing else.

The reason why I brought up the stone is that the rules mechanism for when the effect ends is quite similar to the storm banner, both items lose their effects if a certain event occurs, which in both cases are based on chance and not fixed like an item that lasts until the end of X phase.

And no I wouldn't argue that the your mage being killed ends the effect of the hex scroll on the enemy wizard, as nothing in the rules of the hex scroll suggests that the effect is tied to the scroll after it has been used. Unlike the storm banner where the effect is quite clearly tied to the banner even after activation.

jaxom
24-01-2011, 19:03
The effect isn't extrinsic, it comes from the BsB, the item is destroyed it the storm should be gone, assuming it is a storm. I picture a giant hole open up on the banner itself when it is working, and when hit with Vaul's boom its gone.

Quick hint. It's not intrinsic either or the penalty exists the entire time the banner in on the field whether I have activated it or not; whether it's effects have ended or not.

Given the distinct lack of clarity, the only purely logical answer would be that banners are inherently assumed to be intrinsic properties unless there are specific conditions which make them clearly *not* intrinsic in which case they should be assumed to be extrinsic.

More specifically, given a single set of statements about what ends the effects of the banner, it's a kinda strange assumption to then go on and pick another condition which ends the banner and was not listed.