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View Full Version : The day they killed the Land Raider...



Jind_Singh
20-01-2011, 07:15
In the post apocalyptic years to come I will be able to tell people....

I was there....

I was there the day the Land Raider died.


It all began back in the times that we now know as 'The days of plenty'. Games Workshop had just released a new plastic kit, a Storm Raven, and I decided to walk into the store to check out the rules.

And ended up nearly clawing out my eyes in disbelief!!!

Was it due to the crazy weapons systems it held?

NO!

Was it the million upgrades?

NO!

Was it the ability to carry troops AND a dreadnought?

NO!

It was.....


Machine Spirit


HOW DARE THEY! HOW DARE THEY!!!

Machine Spirit - something inherent in all Imperium vehicles but soft, muted. But inside the Land Raider it is a raging tempest, it gives fire and life to the Imperium's oldest, most celebrated, and most worthy Tank (with a capital 'T' please!).

Here's some quotes written about the Land Raider:

1) The Land Raider's heritage predates even the Imperium
2) A Land Raider is a blessed artifact to the Techmarines
3) A substantial portion of the Omnissiah's essence resides within the Land Raiders impenetrable adamantium hull.


SO HOW DOES THE STORM RAVEN GET THIS MOST SACRED OF ALL RULES?

It defines the Land Raider, it makes the Land Raider a unique vehicle - did they really have to give this away?

I'd have even accepted the same rule with a different name for the Storm Raven - independent targeting systems, whatever they wanted - blood-tracking auto-systems for e.g., but to so callously steal the Machine Spirit from the Land Raider was to make the Land Raider less.

Just my view - but curious to see what others think!

Scaryscarymushroom
20-01-2011, 07:22
They gave it Machine Spirit...?
Hmmm.

I'm not a fan of the model itself. I'd rather just field Land Raiders.

They're so much cooler.

Chrysis
20-01-2011, 07:26
You're getting upset about the Stormraven having PotMS when any Black Templar vehicle can take it as an option?

Jind_Singh
20-01-2011, 07:30
:shifty::wtf::eek:

I got to read me some Black Templar codex - but for some reason it doesn't hurt as much as it's still with the land tanks - Rhinos, Preds been around as long as the Land Raider - plus the Templars are a noble chapter derived from the most awesome of all 1st founding chapters - The Imperial Fists

But seriously I have to read that book to see how the heck I never heard that before - maybe because all the BT players I know just can't be bothered putting the upgrade in!

Mondo80
20-01-2011, 07:31
I don't see a problem with it as currently, only the Blood Angels can use it.

Hendarion
20-01-2011, 07:33
Well, what exactly did you expect of the most heroic and iconic army of them all?
I mean, c'mon, the days that non-imperial-army players felt like being loved by GW are OVER for so much of a period. Well, yea, they tried to brighten it up a bit with the DE release... but even DE are not that creepy as uber-iconic Marines. In no way. Marines have everything that other armies have too - but without the drawbacks. Marines have fast skimmers, but with assault-ramps. Some marines have 3+ or 2+ armour AND fleet. Marines can move vehicles fast AND shoot like crazy. Marines even got Lance-weapons and Greater Demons. Hell, they even got the best psykers.
Seriously, although they should never have given MachineSpirit to the Raven, I did not expect anything else to happen. And wait a bit, only because right now only Bloodies and GreyKnights can have it, it doesn't mean others can't. It will come up in summer and it will be included in 6th edition Marine Vanilla Codex, I bet on it.

Zweischneid
20-01-2011, 08:09
I don't think the Landraider died... yet.

It might happen however in 6th Edition when GW is likely to add some "true" flyer rules that are perhaps a bit "too good" as to sell more of those type of Kits (Valkyrie, Stormraven, DE-Fighter/Bomber, etc..) and "nerf" non-flying tanks and transports because they're by and large "too good" currently.


And Maschine Spirit never was Landraider-unique. It used to be an upgrade to many vehicles. As pointed out above, just get a Templar Codex.

Lothlanathorian
20-01-2011, 08:20
Yes, it was Land Raider unique, actually. Then it was an option for everything in the BT codex. It was never an upgrade until that codex as, until then, Land Raiders automatically had it.

AndrewGPaul
20-01-2011, 09:00
It defines the Land Raider, it makes the Land Raider a unique vehicle

No it doesn't. Not alone, anyway. What defines the Land Raider is the sum of the parts - Power of the Machine Spirit and twin heavy weapon sponsons and a transport capacity and all-round heavy armour.



I'd have even accepted the same rule with a different name for the Storm Raven

No, that's a stupid idea. It's stupid when they did it in the High Elves army book, too.

Lothlanathorian
20-01-2011, 09:23
No, that's a stupid idea. It's stupid when they did it in the High Elves army book, too.

Well, it's a good thing this isn't the 40K Forums so we all totally know what you're on about there, man.:shifty:

Lord Damocles
20-01-2011, 09:30
Meh.


The Crusader killed the Land Raider.

Now one of the rarest vehicles in the Imperium has a bajillion variants, most of which are [percieved as] better in game terms than the standard Phobos.

N3p3nth3
20-01-2011, 09:53
S'yeah, don't think it had potms back in the second edition, when I got mine. So can't really summon up the indignation. Well, maybe I could if I hadn't jumped over to the spiky space elves.... :)

AndrewGPaul
20-01-2011, 10:02
The first poll option "NOOOOOO! Never! Feel pain traitor fluff wreckers!" reminds me - the Land Raider should still be allowed as a transport option for a Harlequin squad. :)

Lord Damocles
20-01-2011, 10:04
The first poll option "NOOOOOO! Never! Feel pain traitor fluff wreckers!" reminds me - the Land Raider should still be allowed as a transport option for a Harlequin squad. :)
And looted robots!

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
20-01-2011, 10:05
PotMS is a rule that should be kept to only things that deserve it. The Land Raider is one of them, I don't really mind the Storm Raven having it but as long as there is a reason in the fluff. My biggest problem with PotMS is that for some reason Titans don't have it when IMO they are prob the only things that deserve it more than the LR.

Gu

Lord Damocles
20-01-2011, 10:06
Possibly because you can't stun an entire titan at once, and they can already fire all their weapons at different targets..?

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
20-01-2011, 10:09
Possibly because you can't stun an entire titan at once, and they can already fire all their weapons at different targets..?

That is true, but IMO, the rule should be there anyway. Kinda like BS6, its no better rules wise than BS5 but it just shows that the person is better.

Gu

Shab
20-01-2011, 10:27
I have to echo Hendarion's sentiments on this. Don't worry, just wait until 6th, when Land raiders will retaliate by nicking stormraven's ceramite rule. Hopefully by then marines will also get jet pack terminators and scouts with markerlights.

eldargal
20-01-2011, 10:30
Yes, you Marine players have it so tough, with your LR variants equal in number to most codices entire HS selection.:p
Just teasing, it does seem rather stupid that the LR exclusive rule is now not so exclusive. But then again the Stormraven is pretty much a Land Raider with a big thruster and some adorable stubby wings strapped on.

Scythe
20-01-2011, 10:34
Meh.


The Crusader killed the Land Raider.

Now one of the rarest vehicles in the Imperium has a bajillion variants, most of which are [percieved as] better in game terms than the standard Phobos.

Quoted for the truth. The day the crusader arrived heralded the downfall of the godhammer pattern, the only true land raider. After that, it only got wose, with BA tossing the things out of dropships :p

Lothlanathorian
20-01-2011, 10:35
That is true, but IMO, the rule should be there anyway. Kinda like BS6, its no better rules wise than BS5 but it just shows that the person is better.

Gu

Actually, BS6 is better than BS5. With BS6 you hit on a 2+/6+, iirc.

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
20-01-2011, 10:37
AFAIK that only happens when you get to BS7. Damn being at work and not having my BRB to hand :(

Gu

Lothlanathorian
20-01-2011, 10:39
I know how you feel. I lost mine. I thought that BS6 was as I stated and BS7 was 2+/5+.

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
20-01-2011, 10:45
Yup just checked online ur right. Hmmm no idea where i got that idea from. My bad :)

Though OT i still think Titans should have PotMS for sake of completion.

:P

Gu

Bestaltan
20-01-2011, 11:25
Were you not around for last edition? Even predators could have a machine spirit.

Sparowl
20-01-2011, 11:44
The day the crusader arrived heralded the downfall of the godhammer pattern, the only true land raider. After that, it only got wose, with BA tossing the things out of dropships :p

Actually, that's why Godhammers are so rare nowadays. Its hard to find them, since most are in holes in the ground from where they hit when they were tossed out of aircraft by the BA.

Zweischneid
20-01-2011, 12:13
Now one of the rarest vehicles in the Imperium has a bajillion variants, most of which are [percieved as] better in game terms than the standard Phobos.

Which is why it worked. Proclaiming something is rare and special makes people want to buy it. Applies to Space Marines as a whole too. Or Terminators within Space Marines. Or Dreads. Or "unique/rare" Chapters like Grey Knights or Space Wolves over (the in the end much rarer) "common" Chapters. Or whatever.

Noone wants to play the "common stuff"; everyone buys things that are billed as "rare", "elite", "one-in-a-million", "special", "unique", "long thought lost", etc.., .

Stuff like that is just random advertising blurbs.

Bunnahabhain
20-01-2011, 12:32
The day they released 5th ed.

The prevalence of 4+ cover saves, especially if trying to shoot across any distance, pushes short range, effective AT weaponry- Meltas- very hard. These make a mockery of that AV14 all round. That kills land raiders.

Now they're little more than an almost disposable assault launch platform, and those already existed- drop pods.

The rules system isn't flexible enough to cope with them- they're banging up against the cover rules, assault rules, vehicle firing rules, and generally suffer for trying to jam an almost war machine sized vehicle into the standard size mould.

IJW
20-01-2011, 12:53
Given that PotMS is based on the old Rogue Trader era auto-systems that could be taken by everyone including Orks, this entire thread is a storm in a teacup. ;)

Griffindale
20-01-2011, 13:06
Yes, we Blood Angel players have so many land raiders we drop them from orbit.

Wicksy
20-01-2011, 13:06
....that and you've only just realised 9 months after the BA codex came out?

Zweischneid
20-01-2011, 13:10
Yes, we Blood Angel players have so many land raiders we drop them from orbit.

That's why my Tau need a solid-pewter Manta to drop on the table after the Landraiders. Victory by Deep Strike: he who deploys last wins :D

Hicks
20-01-2011, 17:26
I don't own the BA codex, so I don't know much about the stats of the Storm Raven, but to me what really makes the Landraider unique is the 14AV all around and the assault ramp that allows it's cargo to charge after disembarking.

If the Storm Raven has those... then yes I'm really thinking that the LR has been made obsolete.

Jind_Singh
20-01-2011, 17:38
....that and you've only just realised 9 months after the BA codex came out?

Can be explained:

1) I only really started enjoying playing 40k just a few months ago - though I dabbled with it in the past (had an Eldar army, Orks, Gaurd) but just couldn't get in to it.

2) Though I didn't play I am mad for reading the fluff sections of the books, Horus Heresy books, etc, and since the early days of my introduction to all things 40K I've always had an acute disklike for Blood Angels and Dark Angels - perhaps the only two loyalist chapters of the First Founding I never gave a fig about - so when the book came out I briefly looked at the fluff section (one of the worst ever written, very sloppy), and put the book down again!

Actually that's it really - and then I heard the model was about to be released so I thought I'd just have a quick look-see at the rules, which made me see the PoTMS rule, which led to the thread, which led to your post, which led to my reply! :D

Full circle!

Lord Inquisitor
20-01-2011, 17:44
You're not seriously telling me you'd feel better about it if they called it "Power of the Blood Spirit" are you?

(Somewhere, Matt Ward is coincidentally thinking '"Power of the Blood Spirit"? Why didn't I think of that in time for print!') :p

My actual feeling is that there's no real reason it shouldn't have a machine spirit. I'm not the biggest fan of the Storm Raven, it's a stunted deformed thunderhawk and lugging a dreadnought around on the back seems absurd. But all large vehicles, thunderhawks, titans and up have one or more machine spirits so I don't see a big fluff heresy there. What bugs me is the proliferation of pointless special rules but meh. Was "fast vehicle" not good enough? They have to be better able to fire on the move than Eldar? Bah. The Land Raider needed the PotMS because of a fundamental deficiency in the core rules that meant vehicles couldn't operate as gunplatforms and transports simultaneously. Two editions later, they STILL haven't fixed the core problem in the rules and the special rule is proliferating like a bacterium.

razormasticator
20-01-2011, 17:46
I see Dead People...

DJ3
20-01-2011, 17:58
On behalf of all Daemon, Tyranid, and Ork players:

Yes. Land Raiders are awful now. Please fly around in your AV12 boxes that ignore Melta instead.

loveless
20-01-2011, 18:03
Were you not around for last edition? Even predators could have a machine spirit.

No freaking kidding.

Frankly, I miss my PotMS Vindicators :p

You know what makes a Land Raider a Land Raider for me? AV 14 all around with a decent transport capacity and an assault ramp. PotMS is not a defining feature for me - primarily because it used to be available to every vehicle.

Chem-Dog
20-01-2011, 18:08
No, that's a stupid idea. It's stupid when they did it in the High Elves army book, too.

High Elves have PotMS?



Now one of the rarest vehicles in the Imperium has a bajillion variants, most of which are [percieved as] better in game terms than the standard Phobos.

The original Land Raider was concieved in RT ere and it's armament reflects that, later variants are more of a response to a specific required battleground role.


Yes, we Blood Angel players have so many land raiders we drop them from orbit.

Yet they don't have thermal sheilding, like the stormraven.....:shifty:


The Land Raider needed the PotMS because of a fundamental deficiency in the core rules that meant vehicles couldn't operate as gunplatforms and transports simultaneously. Two editions later, they STILL haven't fixed the core problem in the rules and the special rule is proliferating like a bacterium.

Agreed.

Kalishnikov-47
20-01-2011, 18:23
No, no, you know who was right all along? The Mongolians, they knew that you just can't wall yourself off from the outside world. Putting walls up never solves anything, tearing them down brings us together.

On Topic

To me it does not matter, GW is free to retcon their fluff as needed. Just because we tend to gravitate toward older editions of fluff does not make them superior. Granted with bad writing it does not seem great and can be very over the top.

Jind_Singh
20-01-2011, 18:29
he he - on a side note I always found it strange that the stories are full of epic land raider assaults

5 Land Raiders punch their way through wall after wall to emerge on the enemy and destroys them

A land raider emerges from the waters and comes at the enemy from behind

So on, so forth - yet in the game mine will sooner or later roll a 1 and get stuck on a tiny rock! The most powerful assualt vehicle of the Imperium, predates the Imperiium, and yet they didn't figure out how to keep the tracks clear of jams! (But their Chaos cousins figured out a simple dozer blade that works on their other tanks was just the thing!)

Easy E
20-01-2011, 19:23
The StormRaven commits the worst sin of any miniature in my eyes.

It is UGLY!

Badger[Fr]
20-01-2011, 19:30
The Land Raider is more alive than it has ever been. Do you remember 3rd / 4th Edition, when transports were deathtraps and glancing hits made a mockery of Av14?

Jackmojo
20-01-2011, 19:58
I actually wish they'd go back to having Power of the Machine Spirit on all Space Marine Vehicles (heck and make it an option for IG too), its a nice rule that is relatively underutilized.

Jack

genestealer_baldric
20-01-2011, 20:46
look the ammount of high tech gear the blood angles allready have makes no sense they have been practically wiped out so many time they should be ruuning around now wearing cardbord armour tied together with string and sharpend pointy sticks. so if they get first dipps on whatever the mechanicam can glue toghetr why not add in another stupid rule.

DJ3
20-01-2011, 21:08
I actually wish they'd go back to having Power of the Machine Spirit on all Space Marine Vehicles (heck and make it an option for IG too), its a nice rule that is relatively underutilized.

Jack

Or just play Spearhead.

Power of the Machine Spirit for everyone! Tyranids and Daemons need not apply!

MajorWesJanson
20-01-2011, 22:03
Or just play Spearhead.

Power of the Machine Spirit for everyone! Tyranids and Daemons need not apply!

Except for Soulgrinders...



I used to run PotMS Predators and Vindicators in 4th ed SM. It wasn't just BT that could take it as an upgrade. 30 points, and your rhino could have it too.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-01-2011, 22:16
The Crusader killed the Land Raider.


I actually like all the land raider variants. The crusader fills a slightly different battle role than a standard land raider does, which is why I like it. Lascannons and hurricane bolters look for very different targets.

I don't know that much about the Helios/Prometheus/Achilles patterns, but I would be more than happy to see them on the table. Especially if my opponent went to great lengths to create the tanks with parts from other kits. I like them because they create variety in modelling projects.

DarkstarSabre
20-01-2011, 23:26
Yes, we Blood Angel players have so many land raiders we drop them from orbit.

I'm wondering if this tactic was developed after a war against the Tyranids.

'Sir, they keep popping up from the ground!'

'Right! It's like a giant whack-a-mole!'

*Land Raiders are fired to whack Trygons. Everyone wins!*

DeeKay
21-01-2011, 01:35
I was led to believe that this was a seance... dead people need attention too!

Honestly though, GW as a business need to revitalise their product just as much as any other company. After all, you hardly have people trying to sell the old mobile phones, do we?

As far as rules go, I couldn't care less. GW seem to be trying to cram in models that really don't belong in a game of this scale (fliers and super-heavies) so a rules point isn't that strong an arguement anymore. I think (from what I've seen of the Stormraven) the model looks rubbish and the only people who would buy it would be those people who cannot convert a better one themselves. Cheesy lists don't even come into the equation for me, being a competitive gamer and all.

With regards,
Dan.

Garven Dreis
21-01-2011, 02:50
Man, I like how there is such a big upset about another Imperial vehicle getting it, but what about Chaos Land Raiders aye?

Jind_Singh
21-01-2011, 03:04
But Chaos Land Raider has been infected - the Machine Spirit has been replaced with Chaos - and there is an option to become possessed which fits it's nature much better.

IF the Land Raider kept machine spirit then you could also say Chaos Marines could keep combat tactics, they shall know no fear, etc, but those are very much Imperial traits.

riotknight
21-01-2011, 03:16
What if the Storm Raven fluff is tied to the Grey Knights more than we know? Perhaps it too is as old as the Imperium, or at least the Heresy (As the Grey Knights were founded during the heresy, afaik)

SamaNagol
21-01-2011, 03:25
It would be amusing if they did try and make it out to be some ancient relic and lost technology, given that the description of Thunderhawks in comparison to Stormbirds is the THawk is a cheap mass produced knock off made fast and quickly for the Great Crusade

Garven Dreis
21-01-2011, 03:30
IF the Land Raider kept machine spirit then you could also say Chaos Marines could keep combat tactics, they shall know no fear, etc, but those are very much Imperial traits.

I liked Infernal Device better to be fair. It was suitably daemonic and also kept it as a moving fire platform (like it was intended).

Voss
21-01-2011, 03:33
snips wall o' text

Welcome to... eight months ago.

Grand Master Raziel
21-01-2011, 13:52
For the Land Raider to be "killed", it's have to be alive in the first place, and that thing hasn't been alive since 3rd edition. GW warmed the corpse some with the new Machine Spirit rules, but it still suffers from being an oversized, over-vulnerable points-sink. Why buy a Land Raider (any variant) to transport a squad when for the same price you can get a Rhino and two dakka Preds? Using it as an assault boat is an excellent way of losing it in this, the meltaspam edition. Not to mention anyone with lances (a slowly escalating number of armies) gets to arbitrarily drop the AV rating on your expensive LR to that of a Dreadnought costing less than half the price. So no, I don't think the Stormraven has killed the Land Raider, because the Land Raider's been dead since 3rd edition.

eyescrossed
21-01-2011, 13:59
It's just flogged the dead Land Raider ;)

Crazy Ivan
21-01-2011, 14:09
I'm wondering if this tactic was developed after a war against the Tyranids.

'Sir, they keep popping up from the ground!'

'Right! It's like a giant whack-a-mole!'

*Land Raiders are fired to whack Trygons. Everyone wins!*
Every time you drop a Land Raider from orbit, an acolyte of the Omnissiah dies. True story.


On topic: meh. It's just a badly-named rule. And although I think the Stormraven looks horrible, it's not a tank, it's a flyer. It has an entirely different role, fluffwise. I'm sure I remember Titans have overt machine spirits, and I wouldn't be surprised if Starships had 'em too.

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2011, 17:36
Every time you drop a Land Raider from orbit, an acolyte of the Omnissiah dies. True story.


On topic: meh. It's just a badly-named rule. And although I think the Stormraven looks horrible, it's not a tank, it's a flyer. It has an entirely different role, fluffwise. I'm sure I remember Titans have overt machine spirits, and I wouldn't be surprised if Starships had 'em too.

wait till the next guard codex even the humble lasgun will have POMS

ColShaw
21-01-2011, 17:43
Long long time ago... I still remember how those Angels used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had the chance, I could cast a great Blood Lance,
And maybe we'd stop Chaos for a while...
But those Stormravens made me shiver,
With every Dreadnought they delivered
Assault troops on the table.
I did what I was able...

I can't remember, if I tried,
How to beat a Termicide,
But something touched me deep inside
The day... the Raider... died.

So bye bye, to the warp-riddled Eye,
Drove my Raven to the haven, so the craven would fry.
Them Sanguinary Priests just shrugged and they sighed,
Saying, This is how the Land Raiders die.
This is how the Land Raiders die.

*to the tune of Don McLean's "American Pie"*

eyescrossed
21-01-2011, 17:54
You win +9000 internetz.

I want to sig that but it's too big.

Jind_Singh
21-01-2011, 18:02
That alone makes up for the Storm Raven having PoTMS - that is indeed a most excellent take on the song and it's genius!

Well played!

Korraz
21-01-2011, 18:27
Isn't this whole thing somewhat ridiculous? The rule was called "Power of the Machine Spirit", not "Power of the Land Raider." Models from similar production ages/of similar tech having similar special rules is just called "consistency." Anyway BackInMyDay, ever vehicle could buy one. And MyDay isn't far back.

Vaktathi
21-01-2011, 19:18
Well, the whole unit feels rather forced and arbitrary personally, and the model looks like a "my first lil' gunship by MattelŪ":p

That said, the issue with PotMS is that, like Land Raiders, it's got multiple guns that are effective against different units pointing in different arcs, and the current vehicle shooting rules essentially necessitate a PotMS type rule if one wants it to function as a shooting platform. There's a reason almost every tank in the game that has more than one main gun is either Fast, can fire as though it were Fast, has PotMS, Lumbering Behemoth, Aerial Assault, etc with basically the sole exception of non-Blood Angels Predators and Battlewagons.