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View Full Version : Shooting at the Bell/Furnace and Stegadons



H33D
20-01-2011, 21:53
The rules in the respective army books for the units listed in the title simply state something along the lines of:

'shooting hits are randomized. Randomize them this way...'

So does that overwrite the rule for templates affecting every part of a model?
Or, do you only randomize when necessary i.e normal shooting or with the higher strength part of a stone thrower?

senoja
20-01-2011, 22:06
you only randomize hits that only hit one part if something states that it hits every part of the model in a certain way then there is no reason to randomise

even if you did randomize if u think about it you would randomize where the center of the template is placed on the model still doesnt exempt the rest of the model from being hit by the template too

RogueCanadian
21-01-2011, 14:46
In the new edition, randomization like this really only applies to weapons that use a ballistic skill to hit.

Lex
21-01-2011, 16:16
The rules in the respective army books for the units listed in the title simply state something along the lines of:

'shooting hits are randomized. Randomize them this way...'

So does that overwrite the rule for templates affecting every part of a model?
Or, do you only randomize when necessary i.e normal shooting or with the higher strength part of a stone thrower?

I highly doubt it's supposed to overwrite it. But, there are those who want to make their expensive toys better. Unfortunately, GW has left them a "rules loophole" leg to stand on.

senoja
21-01-2011, 18:18
i dont rele think thet have tbh a template hits every part of a multipart model simple in the case of the army book saying any hits are randomised makes no mention of template weapons.

the BRB makes a flat definate statement that IF a templates HITS a multipart model EVERY part of the model takes a hit. screaming bell really needs to be errataed to give it an actual unit types instead of just unique as there rele is no need for a unique unit type in the game anyway

raqndomising hits makes no diference to hits that caused automaticly

isanti13
22-01-2011, 03:48
As it stands now, the bell and furnace are pretty much the only thing that both the rider and mount are NOT both hit when a cannon or something hits them. The rules in the bell specifically state that when you hit it, you randomize.

Masque
22-01-2011, 08:13
If someone could describe why they think the Bell's special rules for randomizing hits override the template rules of hitting every part of a model but the monster rules for randomizing hits do not, that'd be great.

antihelten
22-01-2011, 08:56
Technically couldn't the two rules coexist, i.e. all parts are hit and then you randomize. For instance in the case of the bell, the grey seer and the bell are both hit for a total of 2 hits which are then both randomized.

Also the actual rules says that hits against the screaming bell are randomized (not screaming bell "model" which would arguably include the greyseer), so you could also argue that the hit from the template against the greyseer isn't randomized.

TheDarkDaff
22-01-2011, 10:14
Also the actual rules says that hits against the screaming bell are randomized (not screaming bell "model" which would arguably include the greyseer), so you could also argue that the hit from the template against the greyseer isn't randomized.

This is actually the most technically correct way of doing it (at least for the screaming bell).

1. every part of the multipart model is hit
2. randomise the hit on the screaming bell (not the hit on the grey seer)
3. resolve the hits (which can actually put 2 cannon hits on a grey seer from a single shot)

Of course you don't always have to be a slave to RAW.

Masque also makes a good point about the monster rules for randomising hits.

Dark Aly
22-01-2011, 10:17
surely if all parts are hit then it counts as a pre-determined randomisation? ;)

isanti13
22-01-2011, 14:55
*Sigh*

Here is how it works, it has already been discussed thoroughly on the Under Empire forums and everywhere else.

It states that army book rules override ANY rules from the BRB where they are stated.

The bell is a unique unit and specifically states that you use the rules in the skaven book for everything about it

The skaven book SPECIFICALLY states that you randomize when the bell gets hit, it doesn't hit both.

Until they errata this and change it, this IS how it works.

antihelten
22-01-2011, 15:15
It states that army book rules override ANY rules from the BRB where they are stated.

Actually what the BRB says is that army book rules override rules from the BRB when theres a conflict, and since there arguably isn't a conflict in this case, nothing is overridden. And so things would work like TheDarkDaff outlined.

Tregar
22-01-2011, 17:19
The skaven book SPECIFICALLY states that you randomize when the bell gets hit, it doesn't hit both.

There's the rub- if you really want to play it by RAW down to the letter, you only randomise when the BELL is hit. And only the Bell! General template rules have already specifically told you that both parts have been hit, so if you want to then apply the SB rules,. you would then randomise the hit on the Bell (but not the hit on the Grey Seer).

The most sensible thing to do is to take the randomisation rules as being in the context of what happens when the SB is shot at by shooting attacks that actually randomise. But of course, that doesn't give the Bell an additional advantage...

Haravikk
22-01-2011, 18:13
I agree with Tregar here; the template rules specify two hits, one against the bell, and one against the rider, so to me it seems to be a more specific rule.

You could certainly apply the bell rule as well and randomise the hit on the bell and potentially end up with two hits against your grey seer...

The closest type for comparison is a ridden monster, which doesn't randomise hits from a template, but instead receives one hit for the monster, and one for the rider. It makes sense that this is the behaviour for the bell as well, since it's a form of ridden monster, or you can compare to a chariot with basically the same result.

isanti13
22-01-2011, 23:10
When I said the bell gets hit, I meant the bell/grey seer model. It is one single model and when that model gets hit, you randomize.

Again, because it is a unique unit, it overrides any rules that are talked about in its description. And in the bells unit entry, it states that when anything hits it, it is randomized. You can play it however you want, but as far as RAW is concerned, when a cannon hits it, the ball does not hit both parts, it will hit the bell on a 1-5 and the grey seer on a 6. Also, the closest type argument really doesn't work since ridden monster =/= unique unit. Until its clarified in an errata, which I imagine it will be eventually, the way I stated is the way it is in RAW.

isanti13
22-01-2011, 23:11
Actually what the BRB says is that army book rules override rules from the BRB when theres a conflict, and since there arguably isn't a conflict in this case, nothing is overridden. And so things would work like TheDarkDaff outlined.

Really? There is a definite conflict since the bells section on shooting says hits are randomized.

scruffyryan
23-01-2011, 09:07
I'm also finding it difficult to believe that people seem willing to argue that the cannon ball ricochets around like the magic bullet that killed kennedy is a more likely/reasonable interpretation of the rules for this model than simply randomizing a hit like it says in the description.

Tregar
23-01-2011, 13:47
It happens with any other mount, and it's just as retarded there too. It is more of a fault with 8th edition's poor template rules than with the Skaven.


When I said the bell gets hit, I meant the bell/grey seer model.

We know what you meant- whether we agree the rules meant it too is another matter ;) It is written somewhat ridiculously though, saying if you hit the Screaming Bell, then randomise and on a 1-5 you hit the Screaming Bell, on a 6 you hit the Grey Seer. If we wanted to get REALLY retarded with RAW, then every time you roll a 1-5 and hit the Screaming Bell, the randomisation rules kick in again and you must keep rolling to randomise, until you finally don't get the 1-5 result :D

DeathlessDraich
23-01-2011, 14:19
The rules in the respective army books for the units listed in the title simply state something along the lines of:

'shooting hits are randomized. Randomize them this way...'

So does that overwrite the rule for templates affecting every part of a model?
Or, do you only randomize when necessary i.e normal shooting or with the higher strength part of a stone thrower?



If someone could describe why they think the Bell's special rules for randomizing hits override the template rules of hitting every part of a model but the monster rules for randomizing hits do not, that'd be great.

The Screaming Bell's rules do override the BRB rules in general but there is nothing to override in this case


*Sigh*

Here is how it works, it has already been discussed thoroughly on the Under Empire forums and everywhere else.

It states that army book rules override ANY rules from the BRB where they are stated.

The bell is a unique unit and specifically states that you use the rules in the skaven book for everything about it

The skaven book SPECIFICALLY states that you randomize when the bell gets hit, it doesn't hit both.

Until they errata this and change it, this IS how it works.

This has been discussed before:

1) The Troop Type of the Screaming Bell is Unique - "have distinct rules which do not appear anywhere else - pg 87

2) The Skaven book randomises hits i.e. known hits
Whether the cannon ball hits every element or 1 element/model is unknown and certainly, is not stated in the Skaven book.

3) pg 9 - Templates: "Some models ... have different locations that can normally be hit separately"
normally be hit - 'Normal' in WHFB rules = common or usual circumstances where the model/unit is hit [by shooting).


2 questions arise from this
From (3) :
Does this Unique model have "different locations that can normally be hit"

Yes it does - because either the Bell or Seer or both will be hit by shooting.

From (1):
Does this Unique model have special rules for shooting "have entirely distinct rules which do not appear anywhere else? - No it doesn't - the randomisation of hits is identical to other shooting rules.
"When this happens, the Army book will contain all the rules for this" etc

i.e. since the Skaven book does not state whether there are 1 or 2 hits (see 2 above), the Unique rules state that it must use the rules of other troop types - pg 87 "use some of the rules of other troop types"

Therefore the Bell must follow the rules on pg 9 to decide whether there are 1 or more hits on the Bell model from the template.

Once this is done, Skaven randomisation then kicks in to decide how to randomise these known no. of hits

Lex
24-01-2011, 17:27
I'm also finding it difficult to believe that people seem willing to argue that the cannon ball ricochets around like the magic bullet that killed kennedy is a more likely/reasonable interpretation of the rules for this model than simply randomizing a hit like it says in the description.

Except, Garrison was grossly mistaken as the position of Kennedy allowed for a single bullet to produce all of the wounds in question. More often than not, single projectiles will produce multiple wounds across multiple locations. In any event both sides have valid arguments and errata is needed.

H33D
24-01-2011, 19:36
so a bell/furnace takes 2 S10 hits from a cannon and you randomize both of them? Or does it hit each element separately with no randomization?

antihelten
24-01-2011, 22:04
Neither of the two, what happens RAW (at least the way I see it), is that the bell/furnace model is hit twice (once for the grey seer and once for the bell/furnace itself) and you then randomize one of these hits (the one that hit the bell/furnace).

Of course this means that the grey seer can actually be hit twice by on cannon ball which is admittedly quite weird, so a more sane way of playing might simply be to only apply the randomization rule when the model gets hit by normal BS shooting, and just ignore the rule when it's template shooting, even though that would be a house rule.

Chipacabra
25-01-2011, 03:18
Except, Garrison was grossly mistaken as the position of Kennedy allowed for a single bullet to produce all of the wounds in question. More often than not, single projectiles will produce multiple wounds across multiple locations. In any event both sides have valid arguments and errata is needed.

I don't think that letting GW write errata for the Warren Commission would improve anything.

Lex
25-01-2011, 13:34
I don't think that letting GW write errata for the Warren Commission would improve anything.

Wow, now there's a terrifying thought.

senoja
25-01-2011, 13:55
bullets ricochet off bone and cause multiple wounds yes cannon balls donot whilst i agree with templates causeing a hit on every part of the model i do not agree with cannon balls being template weapons personaly

on topic however i belive the rules for the screaming bells randomise hits on the screaming bell model correct??? it could be said that from a Literal stand piont the rules state the template hits all "locations on the model " therefore not hitting the model itself but hitting all its locations, its a very lawyerish way of reading it but the wording can stand on its own,

also the skaven books rules for randomising hits only overright the BRBs rules for Randomising hits that is the only case of AB over BRB.

the Template rules state "That can normaly be hit seperatly" meaning that the template over right any requirment to randomise the hits therefore the rules for randomising wether BRB or AB are side stepped (not over written)

the skaven army book only specifies its own rules for randomising hits which ignore the BRBs rules to randomise hits nothing more

DeathlessDraich
26-01-2011, 10:23
so a bell/furnace takes 2 S10 hits from a cannon and you randomize both of them? Or does it hit each element separately with no randomization?

That's an incisive question which smashes the final part of my last post like a cannon ball! :)

If pg 9 is used,
The Seer and Bell each take 1 hit but the way hits are randomised/allocated must be determined by Skaven rules - from Unique rules.
But
pg 9 is allocating hits ( 1each on Bell on Seer), therefore it is over ruled by Skaven rules - again as reqd. by Unique rules.
So, going back to Skaven rules,
Skaven rules only allocate/distribute a known number of hits on the model. It does not state how many hits are caused by a cannon ball.

So
We are back to square 1.

Are there 2 hits or 1 on the Bell model, due to a cannon ball?

Answer: Unknown:)

This definitely needs an FAQ