PDA

View Full Version : Killing Blow Question.



Holesto
21-01-2011, 13:07
Hi again guys!

Had a question about Killing Blow. If I have a Warlord on a Bonebreaker mount, which is a monstrous beast, does this make the Warlord immune to killing blow? Since this makes him monstrous cavalry, I wasn't sure. Any help would be appreciated!

RogueCanadian
21-01-2011, 13:25
No, In this case the Warlord still counts as an infantry model for the purpose of killing blow. The Bonebreaker itself is immune to killing blow. The Warlord can be killing blowed and the Bonebreaker needs to take a monster reaction test, in the same way as an Elf, Vampire, Human on a Dragon.

Holesto
21-01-2011, 13:28
But you can't target the bonebreaker separately, as his wounds become the warlord's. You can kill a dragon out from under a rider as it is a monster, but it makes it sound like you can't do this with monstrous cavalry. Just like you can't kill a juggernaut out from under a bloodcrusher. Not tryin to argue, just want to clarify.

T10
21-01-2011, 13:45
From the FAQ:

"Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted."

Of course this results in a sort of double standard for monstrous cavalry models. Personally I think it would have been a wiser decision for the FAQ to accept that a character on a pegasus is a monstrous troop type and thus immune to killing blow rather than try to retrofit the infantry aspect of the character.

-T10

Holesto
21-01-2011, 13:54
Wow that's pretty lame, so essentially no one is immune to killing blow, as all riders could be infantry. So does the rat ogre stay if the warlord is killed then?

Lex
21-01-2011, 15:08
Wow that's pretty lame, so essentially no one is immune to killing blow, as all riders could be infantry. So does the rat ogre stay if the warlord is killed then?

No, the whole model is removed in the case of monstrous cavalry. What was stated eariler about the reaction test is incorrect in this case.

Edit: That's why there are many who hate the FAQ answer and try to get around it.

Lord Inquisitor
21-01-2011, 15:23
Wow that's pretty lame, so essentially no one is immune to killing blow, as all riders could be infantry. So does the rat ogre stay if the warlord is killed then?

Well, it isn't that lame, it's the way the Killing Blow rule has always worked. If you are a man-sized model, I can chop your head off. If you are a man-sized model and you're on a horse, I can chop your head off. If you are a man-sized model and you're on a dragon, guess what, I can still chop your head off.

However, there is a basic oddity and inclarity with regard to monstrous cavalry. It seems reasonable that they should be affected by killing blow just like regular cavalry as the riders would be vulnerable. I can accept for game balance reasons, they would be immune. But characters need to be treated in the same way as troops.

AMWOOD co
21-01-2011, 16:59
Also, strictly speaking, some special character are not defined as infantry anywhere despite having an obvious infantry component (eg Archaon, Skarsnik) and several characters are not infantry at all (eg Greater Daemons, Treeman Ancient, Ogres). All of these are, by the letter, immune to killing blow by virtue of their unit type, though several people probably houserule special characters as if they were other normal characters.

DaemonReign
22-01-2011, 03:38
I've said this before in other threads but I interpret and play the FAQ focusing on the answer here paraphrased "if the model is infantry riding something it can be kb'd". I think the wording in the FAQ is unfortunate because it seems to me they wrote "character" but really talk about "models".

So as far as I am concerned, everything from Bloodcrushers to Archaon can be KB'd. I know the solution isn't perfect - the opposite is an even worse alternative.

Haravikk
22-01-2011, 10:44
Hmm, games I've played have been the opposite; mounting a character on Monstrous Beast makes them Monstrous Cavalry and thereby immune to killing blow. However, mounting them on a Monster or Chariot (whereby they can be struck separately) does not protect them from ordinary Killing Blow.

The way I figure it is that being mounted on a chariot or monster is already giving a degree of protection to both the mount and the character since they have to be struck separately, while monstrous cavalry is two things represented by a single profile.

I mean rules-wise as I understand it the model ceases to be Infantry when it becomes Monstrous Cavalry, as the mount can not be killed in order to turn the rider back into infantry. However, a chariot or monster can be killed, in which case the rider becomes a standard infantry model.

AMWOOD co
22-01-2011, 17:18
I've said this before in other threads but I interpret and play the FAQ focusing on the answer here paraphrased "if the model is infantry riding something it can be kb'd". I think the wording in the FAQ is unfortunate because it seems to me they wrote "character" but really talk about "models".

So as far as I am concerned, everything from Bloodcrushers to Archaon can be KB'd. I know the solution isn't perfect - the opposite is an even worse alternative.

I did say 'strictly speaking', meaning 'in the strictest and most literal reading of the rules'. Not sure how I'll play it when confronted with the situation... actually, I'll probably want those characters to have whatever advantage I can give them when facing off against Ogres... blasted Gorgers. My only complaint about your method is it means that all Monstrous Cavalry is vulnerable as there are no such units without an infantry-like rider in the books.


Hmm, games I've played have been the opposite; mounting a character on Monstrous Beast makes them Monstrous Cavalry and thereby immune to killing blow. However, mounting them on a Monster or Chariot (whereby they can be struck separately) does not protect them from ordinary Killing Blow.

The way I figure it is that being mounted on a chariot or monster is already giving a degree of protection to both the mount and the character since they have to be struck separately, while monstrous cavalry is two things represented by a single profile.

I mean rules-wise as I understand it the model ceases to be Infantry when it becomes Monstrous Cavalry, as the mount can not be killed in order to turn the rider back into infantry. However, a chariot or monster can be killed, in which case the rider becomes a standard infantry model.

There's no doubt that Killing Blow will affect Monster or Chariot riders by the FAQ (that was unanimous in the long, long threads about this). Monstrous Cavalry are the tough spot since the FAQ allows all characters who start as infantry to suffer Killing Blow even if they become Monstrous Cavalry.

Best thing to do is be familiar of the strictest reading (what I said above) and come to an agreement with your local group about how you will deal with it in your games. When you play outside your group, be prepared to fall back on the strictest reading for the sake of smooth play.

Lord Inquisitor
22-01-2011, 18:00
I did say 'strictly speaking', meaning 'in the strictest and most literal reading of the rules'. Not sure how I'll play it when confronted with the situation... actually, I'll probably want those characters to have whatever advantage I can give them when facing off against Ogres... blasted Gorgers. My only complaint about your method is it means that all Monstrous Cavalry is vulnerable as there are no such units without an infantry-like rider in the books.
Right... In which case the KB rules should state that it works on infantry, cavalry and monstrous cavalry.

There's only one exception that I can think of, rhinox riders, although they're not a "codex" option, the word is they'll be a true rare choice in the next edition of the ogre book. Presumably these would be true monstrous cavalry (monstrous infantry riding monstrous beasts).

NecronBob
22-01-2011, 18:03
So, is the most common reading that a Pegasus Knight is monstrous cavalry and thus immune to killing blow while a hero on a pegasus is a hero on a mount and can therefore be killing blowed even though he cannot be separated from the mount? What happens to the pegasus mount in this case?

That seems a bit odd, but I want to be ready for it if it comes up in a tournament.

Synnister
22-01-2011, 19:17
So, is the most common reading that a Pegasus Knight is monstrous cavalry and thus immune to killing blow while a hero on a pegasus is a hero on a mount and can therefore be killing blowed even though he cannot be separated from the mount? What happens to the pegasus mount in this case?

That seems a bit odd, but I want to be ready for it if it comes up in a tournament.

This is what the FAQ says. I would check with the TO prior to game to see how they are interpreting it.

In the case of the Pegasus mount for the hero it would be removed with the hero.

As has been stated earlier this ruling is very counter-intuitive and should be discussed prior to game starting.