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Darwin_green
21-01-2011, 18:35
I was looking though the stats, and generally they look like they're both filling in the same role, with subtle differences.

3 dragon-ogres with (great/extra)weapons and a champ cost as much as unit of chaos knights with command.

so when's the best task to assign either unit? I'm thinking dragon ogres would do best against lightly armed infantry and skirmishers due to their high number of attacks.

while knights are more than a match for high hitting, but fragile greatweapon units with their high strength and high armorsave by taking advantage of their high Initiative. they're still making 4+ saves against greatswords and swordmasters and 5+ against str6 great weapons.

though dragon ogres seem like a must against lizardmen and skaven, due to their high likelyhood of having lightning based attacks.

Chiungalla
21-01-2011, 18:47
Dragon ogres with great weapons are good against heavy armored cavalry and characters.
Chaos knights are good against infantry.

Dragon ogres have much bigger problems with the usual war machines.


I'm thinking dragon ogres would do best against lightly armed infantry and skirmishers due to their high number of attacks.

Chaos knights have as many attacks (fewer per model, but more models) and better armor, so are better suited for this task.



while knights are more than a match for high hitting, but fragile greatweapon units with their high strength and high armorsave by taking advantage of their high Initiative. they're still making 4+ saves against greatswords and swordmasters and 5+ against str6 great weapons.

You get the saves all wrong. Against strength 5 you will have a 3+ save. Against strength 6 a 4+.
In the end against strength 5 the additional wounds of the dragon ogres are nearly as good as the armor save of the knights. Against strength 6 the dragon ogres are even better.


though dragon ogres seem like a must against lizardmen and skaven, due to their high likelyhood of having lightning based attacks.

They will simply not target the dragon ogres. And both skaven and lizardmen have enough good choices against dragon ogres. Dragon ogres don't like poisoned blowing pipe darts for example.

Evil Hypnotist
21-01-2011, 19:26
Knights also have option of being given a banner (I recommend Banner of Rage), and a mark of Chaos, which makes them more versatile.

Oberon
21-01-2011, 19:30
Dragon ogres take leadership tests=knights are superior. DO are good only against monsters like stegadons, but those cause LD tests... :(

BigbyWolf
21-01-2011, 19:40
I'd vote for knights all the time, mainly because I love the models...but I've also found them more versatile and effective on the table.

Warmachines are the bane of elite units lile Drogers and Knights, and I just can't resist MoT with Blasted Standard for a 4+ ward versus shooting.

Darwin_green
21-01-2011, 20:25
were chariots weakness to str7 attacks that much of a game-breaker to make great-weapon equipped dragon ogres almost a necessity in 7th edition?

Oberon
21-01-2011, 20:34
Were they a necessity?? Around here the common opinion was that Dogres were an sub-par replacement for third unit of knights because composition rules said no triple-choices. Main reason: they take LD tests and seem to fail them all the time. That, and lack of armour, worse WS and striking last.

Chiungalla
21-01-2011, 20:41
were chariots weakness to str7 attacks that much of a game-breaker to make great-weapon equipped dragon ogres almost a necessity in 7th edition?

In the last edition cavalry was far more common and game breaking and great weapon dragon ogres are great against cavalry.

In 8th edition cavalry is less common and less important, and so there is less need for dragon ogres any more.

Havock
22-01-2011, 00:16
The only advantage DO's have is full supporting attacks + stomp.
This means you can make them fairly compact (2x2) which is easy to sneak in, still, they are cannonbait.

Darwin_green
22-01-2011, 01:15
well, my local meta is Dark elves, Dark elves, WoC, Lizardmen, Orcs&Goblins, and high elves.

So I don't see cannon's in my future.

oh, I noticed that monstrous beasts don't test for difficult terrain while charging. While it's not that big of an observation, I've lost a few knights while charging though/in forests and it's nice to know there are a few situations dragon ogres are handy.

decker_cky
22-01-2011, 04:23
they are cannonbait.

Surprisingly little cannonbait with 4 wounds per model. Even on a successful hit and wound, it's still only a 50% chance of killing the dragon ogre (and then you need a successful wound on the second dragon ogre).

Havock
22-01-2011, 04:28
Hmm, yes, 4 wounds is actually quite annoying for the opposition. They could use some defensive buff though (regeneration comes to mind)

Chiungalla
22-01-2011, 04:40
Hmm, yes, 4 wounds is actually quite annoying for the opposition. They could use some defensive buff though (regeneration comes to mind)

This would be to good. By far. Unless you have regeneration 6+ in mind.

Haravikk
22-01-2011, 11:15
I know it's not really the original question, but I'd avoid taking them purely because the models are hideous. That said I do fail to really see what they add to the Warriors of Chaos list, they seem like a silly option that doesn't really fit that well at all.

I really like the Shaggoth model, but it seems more like a Beasts of Chaos option than a Warriors of Chaos one, and would probably fit beasts better than a giant actually.

BigbyWolf
22-01-2011, 12:04
I know it's not really the original question, but I'd avoid taking them purely because the models are hideous. That said I do fail to really see what they add to the Warriors of Chaos list, they seem like a silly option that doesn't really fit that well at all.

I really like the Shaggoth model, but it seems more like a Beasts of Chaos option than a Warriors of Chaos one, and would probably fit beasts better than a giant actually.

I think the reasoning behind it is that Dragon Ogres, along with Chaos Trolls live to the north, while Beastmen are supposed to be found in the forests of the Empire/ Bretonnia.

Haravikk
22-01-2011, 12:09
I think the reasoning behind it is that Dragon Ogres, along with Chaos Trolls live to the north, while Beastmen are supposed to be found in the forests of the Empire/ Bretonnia.
I know, but GW have tweaked fluff in the past, my point being that I've never really felt that they fit in with Warriors, who already have their much cooler Knights, and Ogres and Chaos Spawn if you want some (potentially) hard hitting multi-wound stuff.

I mean in the long term I'd like to see Dragon Ogres and possibly Chaos Ogres and Giants as well dropped entirely from Warriors of Chaos with the Shaggoth moved over to Beastmen in place of the giant. Then the Daemons of Chaos list can be re-integrated with warriors to fill the gaps and provide better scope for single mark chaos lists, or be redone as more of a supplemental list that can optionally be fielded as an army in its own right. But that's a bit of an aside :)

BigbyWolf
22-01-2011, 12:22
S'all right, I still want to field all three forces in one army...ahh, the good old days!

theunwantedbeing
22-01-2011, 12:40
Knights are almost always better.
In5, st5, 1+ armour save, ws5, standard, musician.

Dragon ogres can be st7 and do get a better set of supporting attacks so can have a frontage of only 80mm and fight at full effectiveness, but ASL hurts them as does the lower weaponskill.
4x4 is a good formation for dragon ogres, whereas knights have to be much wider. (5-7 x1)

Knights > Dragon ogres

Dragon ogres really need something like 5 or 6 wounds each to be competitive against knights.
That way they are much more useful, will still take wounds but be that much harder to bring down. (25-50% harder per model)

Havock
22-01-2011, 16:20
This would be to good. By far. Unless you have regeneration 6+ in mind.

I was more thinking about babysitting them with a nurgle mage ;)

Darwin_green
22-01-2011, 19:18
I still like old the models, but I don't like the price of the models. So I found that some people converted them using black orcs and coldones. Also, i managed to score the bits for pretty cheap.

Though I do like the idea of using them 2X2, and with them being monstrous beasts I can hid them in woods to slaughter skirmishers and flank.

So basically they're more of a casual unit that look cool. But, when I want to take the kid-gloves off, use knights.

theorox
22-01-2011, 19:34
I was more thinking about babysitting them with a nurgle mage ;)

Clever! I'd do that...i can use the FW plaugetoads as Drogres. :D

Theo

Paint it Red
26-01-2012, 09:41
Only monstrous infantry can make monstrous support attacks. So a dragon ogre in the second rank can only have 1 attack! If I was to take them I would only ever take them in a unit of 3. Both the knights and dragon ogres are very expensive units. However, the chaos knights can be useful for their magical attacks.

The Binman
26-01-2012, 10:01
Only monstrous infantry can make monstrous support attacks. So a dragon ogre in the second rank can only have 1 attack! If I was to take them I would only ever take them in a unit of 3. Both the knights and dragon ogres are very expensive units. However, the chaos knights can be useful for their magical attacks.

This has been Errata'd, Monstrous Cavalry and Monstrous beasts also get monstrous support attacks.

Havock
26-01-2012, 11:21
Begone, foul necromancer!

Makaber
26-01-2012, 23:24
Dragon Ogres were golden money back in the days where you strick first on the charge and cavalry otherwise ruled the day. Right now, they're not so good. I full expect them to become monstrous cavalry come the next Warriors of Chaos book. But at the moment, sadly, there are very few reasons not to take Knights instead.

Kayosiv
27-01-2012, 01:20
Dragon ogres are great against things that ignore armor and deal 1 wound. Stuff like the Engine of the gods burning alignment or lore of metal is going to shred knights while only scathing the dragon ogres. The models are about as killy as each other for the point cost. Knights will take less wounds but dragon ogres have double the wounds for the points that a knight does.

Chain
27-01-2012, 02:30
Well don't dragon Ogres get the advantage the bigger the unit?
Or does the marks make up for it for the knights?

After all 3 attacks from each model in past ranks is more appealing than 1, though the unit would get much unwanted attension.

popisdead
27-01-2012, 21:35
They are different units with a different purpose.

I use 4 DOs in 2x2 w/ GWs to take down monsters. Lots of wounds, fair WS, S7, multi attacks, can be frenzied on their own (and buffed well with a Warshrine).

I would use Knights to hit infantry with. 1+ save, high WS, S, magical attacks. They are all around great.

GrandmasterWang
30-01-2012, 05:17
Dragon Ogres do get stomps vs Infantry though which can help make the difference.

One match up although very specific that has come up is vs the Tomb Kings and their Sphinx's. Dragon Ogres with their strength 7 work great against both varieties and can't be killing blowed by the warsphinx crew which is a big help. 4 wounds is MASSIVE! I think the models have a certain charm (have 3) however I have another 4 (my main squad) which use IronGut torso's and have ice themed bases. these guys look really menacing and the Irongut torso's are a lot bigger than the original Dragon Ogre torso's.