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Warrior of Chaos
24-01-2011, 07:58
Greets All,

One quick question for you. When dealing with a unit that is Stubborn, Frenzied, Unbreakable, whatever.... The majority of the unit must be effected by it for it to apply to all. Correct? Or is it on a situational basis dependant on the special rule?

1. Hero is stubborn - joins unit of 20 RNF that aren't. The whole unit is NOT stubborn.

2. Hero is not frenzied - joins unit of 20 RNF that IS. Becomes frenzied ("treated as" - without the extra attack).

The only exceptions are for specific items/spells etc...that specifically state that it conveys the effect?

Just a bit confused here on this. I know it's rather a broad scope.

Masque
24-01-2011, 08:45
It is on a case by case basis so you should definately just look these up but...

1. If anything in the unit is stubborn the whole unit is stubborn.
2. If anything in the unit has frenzy the unit must charge (unless leadership test is passed) and must pursue but only the frenzied models get the extra attack and immune to psychology.

Warrior of Chaos
24-01-2011, 08:58
Thanks Masque. I just had noticed there seemed to be no real consistency on how some of these special rules are governed. Guess i'll be making myself a quick ref. chart so i'm not buried in the rulebook trying to sort it all out.

Haravikk
24-01-2011, 10:27
For Unbreakable as well it's worth noting that an Unbreakable character cannot join a unit that isn't Unbreakable and vice-versa, so you shouldn't be able to end up with a mixed unit with only some Unbreakable models.
There are some items that bypass this so it's worth being careful, for example, a magic banner that makes a unit Unbreakable. Technically speaking a non-Unbreakable character couldn't join that unit, but most players will allow it since by attempting to join the unit the character would become Unbreakable as well.

Masque
24-01-2011, 19:44
For Unbreakable as well it's worth noting that an Unbreakable character cannot join a unit that isn't Unbreakable and vice-versa, so you shouldn't be able to end up with a mixed unit with only some Unbreakable models.
There are some items that bypass this so it's worth being careful, for example, a magic banner that makes a unit Unbreakable. Technically speaking a non-Unbreakable character couldn't join that unit, but most players will allow it since by attempting to join the unit the character would become Unbreakable as well.

While it is true that a non-unbreakable character may not join an unbreakable unit the opposite is not true. If a unit is not entirely unbreakable then no models in the unit will gain any benefit from the rule.

shelfunit.
24-01-2011, 20:08
While it is true that a non-unbreakable character may not join an unbreakable unit the opposite is not true. If a unit is not entirely unbreakable then no models in the unit will gain any benefit from the rule.

How is this possible in game? (Serious question)

Masque
24-01-2011, 20:34
How is this possible in game? (Serious question)

The only way I know of is for an Vampire Counts character to join a unit from another Forces of Destruction army in an allied game.

Tregar
24-01-2011, 20:47
Fear confuses me a bit, especially with mixed units. E.g. should the Packmasters/Skinks accompanied by Rat Ogres/Kroxigor take a fear check?

Masque
24-01-2011, 21:00
Packmasters definately test and are affected by fear. Skinks with Kroxigors are handled the same. Where things become vague is with monsters and handlers.

Warrior of Chaos
25-01-2011, 00:03
Packmasters definately test and are affected by fear. Skinks with Kroxigors are handled the same. Where things become vague is with monsters and handlers.

Since handlers are more or less ignored for the most part, would the whole unit be treated as causing Fear or not causing Fear dependent on the monster?

AMWOOD co
26-01-2011, 04:08
Since handlers are more or less ignored for the most part, would the whole unit be treated as causing Fear or not causing Fear dependent on the monster?

That is how I would do things. Treat the handlers as if they weren't there for Fear/Terror.

As for combined/mixed units, you must test if any models would have to take a Fear test, but only those who it would affect will be affected.

So, in the earlier example of the Packmasters with Rat Ogres, if faced with a unit of Skeletons (Fear), the unit will test, but only the Packmasters would have WS1 if they failed. If testing from a Zombie Dragon (Terror), however, the unit will test and the whole unit would have WS1 if failed.

Note: The terror section on p78 states that a unit must be composed entirely of Fear/Terror causing models to be immune to the panic test from terror.

Tregar
26-01-2011, 20:52
Not the greatest example as Rat Ogres are frenzied, but it works with unfrenzied rat ogres or skrox units, thanks!

T10
26-01-2011, 21:59
Since handlers are more or less ignored for the most part, would the whole unit be treated as causing Fear or not causing Fear dependent on the monster?

Please notice that it is models that cause Fear/Terror, it is units that test for Fear, and it is models that are affected by the failed test.

For example, a Fear-causing character in a unit of Chaos Marauders is fighting a unit of Fear-causing Phoenix guard that includes a Mage. Both units contain models that cause Fear and models that are subject to Fear, thus both units need to test for Fear. Assuming that both units fail, those models subject to Fear suffer the consequences: The Chaos Marauders and the Mage.

As for Monsters and Handlers, it seems you are not supposed to affect the handlers separately from the monster. I figure this means the handlers are not subject to Fear unless the monster is too.

-T10

Masque
27-01-2011, 06:26
Not the greatest example as Rat Ogres are frenzied, but it works with unfrenzied rat ogres or skrox units, thanks!

I assume you are trying to imply that because the Rat Ogres are frenzied, and thus immune to psych, the Packmasters are not affected by fear? This is only sometimes true. Immune to psych only protects the unit if the majority of the unit has it. So for example, if you have 3 Rat Ogres and 3 Packmasters and the unit is fighting a terror causing model even the frenzied Rat Ogres will be affected by failing a fear test.

T10
27-01-2011, 07:59
Too bad I don't have the big book available right now, because that raises an issue I've not considered. Could you check to see if all the models in the unit are immune to Fear if the majority of the unit is immune to psychology?

As I mentioned earlier, a failed Fear test will typically have consequences for those models subject to Fear even though the majority is immune to Fear.

I suspect the majority rule makes the unit immune to Panic tests and forces the unit to Hold as a charge reaction.

-T10

Masque
27-01-2011, 08:25
If the majority of the unit is immune to psych then you don't take fear, terror, or panic tests. In a unit where the majority is not immune to psych you technically always take fear tests, even when all models are immune to fear, it's just that only models not immune to fear suffer the consequences.

Jolly Puggles
27-01-2011, 08:47
Fear confuses me a bit, especially with mixed units. E.g. should the Packmasters/Skinks accompanied by Rat Ogres/Kroxigor take a fear check?

Packmaster are, IIRC, immune to Fear when they're in a unit of Rat Ogres. Special Rule. On the flipside, they don't get rank bonuses. Win some, lose some.

Might be similar for Skinks/Krox, but I don't have the Lizardmen army book.

Tregar
27-01-2011, 12:46
I assume you are trying to imply that because the Rat Ogres are frenzied, and thus immune to psych, the Packmasters are not affected by fear? This is only sometimes true. Immune to psych only protects the unit if the majority of the unit has it. So for example, if you have 3 Rat Ogres and 3 Packmasters and the unit is fighting a terror causing model even the frenzied Rat Ogres will be affected by failing a fear test.

That's interesting. I wonder if the GW definition of "majority" means 50%+, or would need an actual majority... I'll go with the dictionary definition for now, good to know thanks!

Greyfire
27-01-2011, 14:35
Packmasters definately test and are affected by fear. Skinks with Kroxigors are handled the same. Where things become vague is with monsters and handlers.


Might be similar for Skinks/Krox, but I don't have the Lizardmen army book.

A skink/kroxie unit is immune to fear. Check the latest FAQ for the lizardmen (version 1.3).



Q. Does a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors cause Fear? Are
they immune to Fear? (p53)
A. Yes to both questions.


It's a big reason to include at least one Kroxie in a big skink unit. Boost to leadership and immunity to fear are helpful.

T10
27-01-2011, 14:51
I'm afraid (heh!) that particular FAQ entry does not conform with rules for Fear.

-T10

Haravikk
27-01-2011, 15:08
Hmm, looking over it the coverage of immunity to Fear is actually pretty poor, as Immune to Fear and Immune to Terror are no longer listed as rules.

It used to be that if a single model in a unit was immune to fear then so was the rest of the unit (bolstered by that one model or whatever). Whereas now that's not the case, only the model immune to fear is immune to fear, the whole unit tests for fear as normal, but models that are immune ignore the effect if the test is failed. It's likely whoever wrote the FAQ confused the old behaviour as it does seem to contradict the way the rule now works.

I'd say that causing Fear on the other hand is a valid ruling for the FAQ since the Kroxigor are treated for many purposes as if they were in the front rank, so it makes sense for their Fear to have an effect, as a Skink doesn't exactly block the view of the Kroxigor!

Tregar
27-01-2011, 15:11
Just makes me wonder why GW bother with writing such precise rules (yet still being vague), and then any situation where you might actually be in a position to consider the situation (E.g. a unit with some fear-causers and some not) they get the rules wrong when asked how it's worked? Why not just delete the entire section telling us that the majority of a unit must cause fear or whatever and have us just guess, rather than clearly telling us one thing then ruling it the other way...

Edit: You're missing the point rather majorly Haravikk. Of course it's sensible that a unit of Skinks with Kroxigor should cause fear, but it's not sensible that the Skinks should be immune to fear, if they're going to write rules telling us that they can be affected by it...

Greyfire
27-01-2011, 16:14
I'm afraid (heh!) that particular FAQ entry does not conform with rules for Fear.
I'm afraid I'm confused then. As a part of the above discussion someone asked if a Kroxie/Skink unit caused fear, and it does. Immune to fear, too. That's the only part I was trying to contribute with since some people seem to think they must test. What am I missing? :confused:

I don't believe that there's an accidental conflict between the base rule and the FAQ. I don't think that question is a hold-over from 7th. Kroxie/Skink units have always been immune to fear, so I thought the FAQ was just making that clear. I wish that GW would just put one line of errata in the Kroxie rules to make the immunity/cause totally clear but they haven't yet.

But that's just one small part of the above discussion, and it's an exception, not the rule.

Haravikk
27-01-2011, 17:03
Edit: You're missing the point rather majorly Haravikk. Of course it's sensible that a unit of Skinks with Kroxigor should cause fear, but it's not sensible that the Skinks should be immune to fear, if they're going to write rules telling us that they can be affected by it...
I didn't say it made sense for them to be immune to fear, only for the enemy to suffer it as if they were in contact with the Kroxigor, which really is how it should have been ruled (if in base contact with a Skink with Kroxigor behind then test for Fear as if you were in base contact with the Kroxigor itself), then they should have just left the immunity part it is (based on majority).

As a minor aside; what do you consider the majority of the unit? If you have 3 Kroxigor in a unit of 11 Skinks, are the Skinks the majority, or the Kroxigor? The reason I ask is that Kroxigor occupy the space of four models (so could be considered 12 in total), and most mentions of base sizes indicate that you treat a single large-base as displacing smaller compatible bases.

Tregar
27-01-2011, 18:09
Well, models is models. I recently played against Lizardmen and took great pleasure in telling my opponent that since his 28-model Skrox unit had been reduced to 4 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor, they could no longer rally- even though it looked like the unit was still half strength :D

Masque
27-01-2011, 18:29
I'm afraid (heh!) that particular FAQ entry does not conform with rules for Fear.

I have a feeling it's left over from 7th. If they wanted to make the skinks immune to fear they needed to errata it not answer a FAQ incorrectly.

Greyfire
27-01-2011, 20:06
Well, models is models. I recently played against Lizardmen and took great pleasure in telling my opponent that since his 28-model Skrox unit had been reduced to 4 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor, they could no longer rally- even though it looked like the unit was still half strength :D
You mean 3 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor, right? With 4 + 3 left that's 7 out of 28. The Skrox unit is at 25% so they can rally. Need to kill one more skink to fall below 25% and become unralliable.

Warrior of Chaos
28-01-2011, 00:02
Well, models is models. I recently played against Lizardmen and took great pleasure in telling my opponent that since his 28-model Skrox unit had been reduced to 4 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor, they could no longer rally- even though it looked like the unit was still half strength :D

Be aware that when reduced below 25% you can still rally. You just have to roll double 1's.

Tregar
28-01-2011, 00:52
You mean 3 Skinks and 3 Kroxigor, right? With 4 + 3 left that's 7 out of 28. The Skrox unit is at 25% so they can rally. Need to kill one more skink to fall below 25% and become unralliable.

Nah, you didn't actually read the rules for rallying before you replied, did you? Just saying, cos I did. 25% or under.

And yeah except on 1-1 (which is actually a fair bit more likely for Lizardmen) :)

Greyfire
28-01-2011, 15:49
Nah, you didn't actually read the rules for rallying before you replied, did you? Just saying, cos I did. 25% or under.

And yeah except on 1-1 (which is actually a fair bit more likely for Lizardmen) :)
Well, in that case I'll just have to stand corrected. :) I double-checked the errata and it seems I've missed the "fix" they made to the first paragraph some time ago.

And I have read it several times. It's been "below 25%" for at least two editions, it's got it in the first paragraph in big, bold letters, and there's no logical reason I can think of to change it, so I thought the second reference in the fifth paragraph was incorrect. I've no idea why that was changed and I probably missed the discussion of it when this edition came out. But like I said, I missed that fix in the errata so I appreciate you helping me out by making me look it up.

Tregar
28-01-2011, 20:59
True, it was only changed to it in the errata. Makes you wonder why they bothered, seeing as it's only likely to confuse people??

Warrior of Chaos
28-01-2011, 23:35
True, it was only changed to it in the errata. Makes you wonder why they bothered, seeing as it's only likely to confuse people??

Agreed. You know, I wish companies that publish these different games would update their "for print" submissions to the firm which is printing the actual books; bi-yearly perhaps. That way the changes and errata could actually be implemented in the production line; maybe give those who own the older books the option to purchase the new books w/ accurate rules and at reduced price.....geez we pay enough for the models as is. Wizards of the Coast and Games Workshop..... (pointing accusing finger):eyebrows:...i'm talking about you!

Dante blackfur
07-02-2011, 04:00
I have a question along this line, it involves the screaming bell, the bell (Which is a mount for my GS) makes the unit unbreakable, but could I put assassins in that unit even though they aren't unbreakable. but according to they're rules they can be deployed with any unit of Clanrats or Storm vermin. so my question is, since I can deploy my assassins in a unit if I put them with the bell do they become unbreakable also?

a18no
07-02-2011, 13:35
I have a question along this line, it involves the screaming bell, the bell (Which is a mount for my GS) makes the unit unbreakable, but could I put assassins in that unit even though they aren't unbreakable. but according to they're rules they can be deployed with any unit of Clanrats or Storm vermin. so my question is, since I can deploy my assassins in a unit if I put them with the bell do they become unbreakable also?

It's really good question that we get no answer to.

Since the unbreakable is given by a special way, we can assume that everything in the unit will get it even character that join the unit. It's the same as the magic banner Dark elf have, a banner that give unbreakable to a unit, the argument is not done yet.

But on the other side, someone can argue that you must follow the RAW, and by doing so, you can't join any unit that is unbreakable...

Pick your choice, and make it clear with your opponent.

Dante blackfur
07-02-2011, 20:44
It's really good question that we get no answer to.

Since the unbreakable is given by a special way, we can assume that everything in the unit will get it even character that join the unit. It's the same as the magic banner Dark elf have, a banner that give unbreakable to a unit, the argument is not done yet.

But on the other side, someone can argue that you must follow the RAW, and by doing so, you can't join any unit that is unbreakable...

Pick your choice, and make it clear with your opponent.

The Way I'm gonna read it is 1st the rules say the army book supersede the brb. So for my assassins I'm not joining the unit, I'm being deployed within the unit same as the screaming bell so I would stand to say that its.one unit for the purpose of the bell making the whole unit unbreakable.

P.s. I guess I answered my.own question. :P but if helps another skaven player then good.:)

Masque
08-02-2011, 02:57
From the Skaven FAQ:

Q. Can I join characters to the units with the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace? (p43 & p48)
A. At deployment, characters can be deployed in the pushing unit and will become Unbreakable, but cannot leave the unit as long as the Bell/Furnace is still there. Once the game is started, no characters can join the unit. In addition, with the Plague Furnace only characters that belong to Clan Pestilens may join the unit.

This seems to be a reasonable ruling except I don't know why the other characters can't leave the unit.

Tregar
08-02-2011, 12:24
Well, do you think that ruling is saying Assassins can start in those units, while hidden?

Masque
08-02-2011, 12:42
I don't see why not.

a18no
08-02-2011, 13:54
The first time I haven't thought about looking for the FAQ... stupid me for that one thanks Masque.

The assassin is a character, so will follow that rule.. why couldn't he?? But he won't be able to leave it.