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Hrw-Amen
24-01-2011, 23:12
Do you think when thinking of the RT days that it is somehow W40K history?

I mean, I know it is history in that it is the original game, but is it thought of as being historical in the sence that it refers to Imperial Army (As opposed to Guard.) in several articles and shows jolly bright looking Orks and SMs with pints of beer and the like.

OK, I realise the whole 'the game is a setting' thing and that the timeline has not moved on arguement; however when I look back at those old publications I cannot help but think of them as being 'ancient' as in like it was in the olden days. The RT book along with things published at that time (Now.) reminds me of musty history books I read at school.

I also wonder if the artwork and images from that book and similar are the kind of thing Imperial children would be given in history lessons. A kind of nostalgic view of what the Imperium was like in the olden days.

What do people think, am I making sence or just rambling? I know what I mean, but it is hard to put down in words.

bound for glory
24-01-2011, 23:29
i would think the imperial children would be tought about aliens only in the worst possible light.
if a student in the 40k universe would sit in a class room and say something like "that tau creature does'nt look like a bad sort", he'd most likly get the beating of his life.

The Harlequin
25-01-2011, 01:43
I've heard of them use such anecdotes historically; the Imperial Army used to have anti-grav tanks, and now those are said to be tools the Imperial Army used during the great crusade.

With regards to the art, I think i'm not the only one who agrees that Warhammer's current art direction is much more in line with the setting than older works. It probably had more to do with the general direction that entertainment went in the 1990's towards more expressionistic works that more accurately reflect the mood of the topic. As much as I have fond memories of 2nd edition, there really isn't a comparison; When I was a kid I always wondered why 'eavy metal painted a commissar wearing bright red gloves. I may have seen an actual bright red glove and realized how silly it looked.

Regarding Imperial propaganda, I always gathered that it looks more like this
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/614/WWII_Nazi_Propaganda_-_Waffen-SS.jpg

I can't see them using pictures of smiling happy go lucky orks with horned viking helmets and brightly painted clothing.

MajorWesJanson
25-01-2011, 04:17
if a student in the 40k universe would sit in a class room and say something like "that tau creature does'nt look like a bad sort", he'd most likly get the beating of his life.

A smart teacher would go "Exactly! That is why they are so dangerous. They look harmless, but if you let your guard down, they will slowly corrupt your cities, then your homes, then your faith in the Emperor, and then your soul itself. That is the true danger of these xenos!"

bound for glory
25-01-2011, 04:34
yeah. might be right about that.

abasio
25-01-2011, 08:44
Plus I am sure that children are all taught that the imperium as it is today is the best time in humanity's existence. It is the epitomy of good governance.
Anything else you require a bolt to the head.

[lexus]
25-01-2011, 11:45
Do you think when thinking of the RT days that it is somehow W40K history?

I mean, I know it is history in that it is the original game, but is it thought of as being historical in the sence that it refers to Imperial Army (As opposed to Guard.) in several articles and shows jolly bright looking Orks and SMs with pints of beer and the like.

OK, I realise the whole 'the game is a setting' thing and that the timeline has not moved on arguement; however when I look back at those old publications I cannot help but think of them as being 'ancient' as in like it was in the olden days. The RT book along with things published at that time (Now.) reminds me of musty history books I read at school.

I also wonder if the artwork and images from that book and similar are the kind of thing Imperial children would be given in history lessons. A kind of nostalgic view of what the Imperium was like in the olden days.

What do people think, am I making sence or just rambling? I know what I mean, but it is hard to put down in words.

I somehow cant imagine Space Marines (exception might be the Space Wolves, as they are Space Vikings) ever drinking beer, let alone with any xenos.

And the whole RT background was supposed to be a lot less serious and grimdark. So I assume that at some point they updated the game, got rid of a lot of RT background and replaced it with grimdark stuff. So no, I wouldnt say that in the past, the Imperium was drinking buddies with the Orks.

jlmb_123
25-01-2011, 11:55
I know what you mean, but you'll find it with a lot of older products. It's more a sense of difference, coupled with your appreciation of the game as a hobby and as a fantasy world.

Try looking at photos of your town in the 1930s or watch adverts from the early 80s (try modern Coke adverts compared to 25-year-old ones). You'll find you have the same reaction.

Londinium
25-01-2011, 12:55
I think that the Rogue Trader book is too far away from modern 40k to really be considered as History, even for the kids of the Imperium. That's not to say it doesn't have relevant parts though. The Horus Heresy authors seem to like drawing upon it for inspiration for example the psychneuin (sp) in A Thousand Sons are actually in the RT book.

The problem with it is, even though much of it is familiar, it's seen through an entirely different more playful, sarcastic and self referential lens. Which just doesn't fit with post 2nd ed 40k.

Polaria
25-01-2011, 13:04
;5266307']I somehow cant imagine Space Marines (exception might be the Space Wolves, as they are Space Vikings) ever drinking beer, let alone with any xenos.


The RT picture where two blokes in power armor are sitting in a bar with pints of beer had nothing to do with Space Marines. Its caption reads "Human renegades" and the bar has text "Smash the Empire" painted on the wall.

In RT Space Marines are, if anything, much, much more grimdark than in recent depictions. They were the worst rejects of humanity now serving Empire, recruited from psychotic hive-gangs and the like. They see an alien, they kill an alien. For RT Marines forging alliances with Tau, Necron or Eldar, or drooling over some eldar female, would be impossible... Seems its not so in recent fluff, though.

Zweischneid
25-01-2011, 13:27
The RT picture where two blokes in power armor are sitting in a bar with pints of beer had nothing to do with Space Marines. Its caption reads "Human renegades" and the bar has text "Smash the Empire" painted on the wall.

In RT Space Marines are, if anything, much, much more grimdark than in recent depictions. They were the worst rejects of humanity now serving Empire, recruited from psychotic hive-gangs and the like. They see an alien, they kill an alien. For RT Marines forging alliances with Tau, Necron or Eldar, or drooling over some eldar female, would be impossible... Seems its not so in recent fluff, though.

Yes and No. Space Marines used to be large-parts criminals, scumbags and never-do-goods (much like today's Starcraft Marines). But they also did include, among others, half-Eldar and people raised by/among Xenos (e.g. old-fluff Calgar, when he grew up as a slave-servant in Hive Fleet "Locust"). Also, Samuel Dexter of the Ultramarines was said to be the son of one of the Chapter's female slaves! For whatever they were used :)

sigur
25-01-2011, 13:30
There is no such word as "sence". At least not to my knowledge and not in the way that you use it.

And, if I got your question right - no. It would make no sense.

TrooperTino
25-01-2011, 16:26
I like to view some changes in the fluff as the new view on history published by imperial autorithies in 40.999. Some things in RT are just silly (even if very funny) and don't fit in the setting anymore.

As a believer in the Ultramarine-conspiracy and other more or less well thought through theories (I like them), the differences between RT and new editions are a well for great ideas and not something to dismiss so easy as an "old setting".

One of the great things of 40k is its diversity and if you have many versions of the background, all set in the same setting, isn't it cool to be able to choose what you like? Or to have thoughts like "oh the high lords of terra would not have liked this *xy* (in RT).... oh! Look, they changed it in the 4th edition... that must be their propaganda"?

It brings more life to the fluff in my opinion and gives the feeling to read "living history".

Sorry for bad english and perhaps some german phrases not working in english :)

Scalebug
25-01-2011, 21:38
I personally like the retcons when they are handled well, like putting the 1st edition Imperial Jetbikes as something that was used during the crusade and lost after the Heresy, or explaining why the Imperial Guard don't use Land Raiders when they did in the original list with the Emperor himself ordering that those should be handed over to the Astartes until he would canceled the order. His intention was for it to go back to common use once hte crisis was over, but then he got a bit roughed up by Horus and never spoke again. So the Imperium leaves his order standing.

Heh... the half-Eldar chief Librarian again (though I'm not 100% 'Librarian' was in place as a title already then, or if that was something that got established some time later, in Space Hulk. May just have been 'Marine Psyker'.)... That was something that got used once, in one of the first 40K articles, and then never mentioned again. Guess someone thought "Nah... too Star Trek/DnD... let's not do that...", so it is pretty safe to consider that never happened, hard de-canon, not history.

And the student/teacher above... well, while it could well go as MajorWesJanson suggest there, one would guess there will probably be some sort of corporal punishment involved too "for the good of the students soul"... not unlikely it will be in some kind of permanent records as well, depending on the culture of the school in question. Then, of course, this ends up as one of those plot-hooks as to why the student gets recruited into the Inqusition for daring to question or so....

Lord Malice
25-01-2011, 23:42
You might like to read this - link (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=153377)

Borg451
26-01-2011, 08:40
For RT Marines forging alliances with Tau, Necron or Eldar, or drooling over some eldar female, would be impossible... Seems its not so in recent fluff, though.


Citation/Link to background that had female Eldar drooling?

Poseidal
26-01-2011, 14:07
You might like to read this - link (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=153377)

I enjoyed that, a good read if anything.

x-esiv-4c
26-01-2011, 14:08
Remember there is no such thing as a retcon, all accounts are equally true and false at the same time.

Hrw-Amen
26-01-2011, 17:05
Well yes OK, having followed the links and read what people have posted it does only appear to confirm my theory at least how I am viewing it.

Yes, all the stuff about the Imperial army being A: The Imperial Army as opposed to guard & B: Having access to Rhinos, LR and so on.

Actually I thought the pictures of aliens painted bright colours in RT and 2nd edition where kind of funny and not scary grim dark at all, kind of how a child would view these creatures and be taught, 'look these things are all bright and colourful, obviously simple minded, no need for us to be scared of them.'
The way in which the book is illistrated reminds me of the Uplifting Primer in its style. (At least that is how i see it.) So kind of aimed at a guardsman who may not be that well educated.

True there are lots of fluff things that have been retconned (I'm pretty sure Leman Russ was born prior to M32?) but then that is the way history is. There are loads of things we have forgotten even if our overall knowledge is better. For example, when I was a child at school, (About 35 years ago.) I knew that Neanderthals were brutish ape like creatures covered in a thick hair weilding a club and who grunted at everything. There were even illistrations of them. Now I know that is not the case, but 35 years ago I knew that what I knew was right becauee I had been told that. In 35 years time I may know something different, but until then.

The fact that those old history books still exist and we now know they are wrong did not stop them being used in the past to teach history as we did not know any different and knew back then that what we knew was right and correct even though it was not.

The RT picture where two blokes in power armor are sitting in a bar with pints of beer had nothing to do with Space Marines. Its caption reads "Human renegades" and the bar has text "Smash the Empire" painted on the wall.

Well, this is true, it does say that but it does not say which empire? It may not be the Imperium, afterall that is usually called the Imperium and not the Empire; (Even though it has an emperor.) what if it was a Tau (Or any other aliens as I don't think Tau were around at the time of RT.) picture and the men in power armour were marines just after capturing the relevant alien planet? If that species had human mercs then any humans seen would be looked at as renegades by the observer.

Lord Malice
26-01-2011, 22:06
I'm pretty sure Leman Russ was born prior to M32?

In the context of background publications as history then no, Leman Russ, was not born prior to M32, the later background is an in-universe re-write of history. Leman Russ was just some human spy for the Adeptus Terra, instrumental in founding the Astartes Unit 4 'Spacewolves'. Later background depicting him as a demi-god is propaganda.


Well, this is true, it does say that but it does not say which empire?

The context is really quite clear, these were power armoured human renegades. Empire in this case means the Imperium.

baphomael
26-01-2011, 23:19
To the OP, yes and no. A lot of RT stuff has been retconned out of 40k canon (eg Leman Russ the Imperial Commander etc), but some of the imagery of the time has been reworked to be 'old skool' Imperial - such as RT era vehicles and weapons etc.

The RT era bolters, rhinos, land raiders, jump packs etc, while having been long since updated and had several design overhauls, are now considered 'heresy' or 'great crusade' era tech. GW has taken to looking at its older designs for imperial stuff as being early designs used in the imperium's history.

Likewise, some units and names from the time have been reworked to fit in a particular part of the 'current' 40k timeline. The Imperial Army is a good example, but some unit choices (such as marine jetbikes, imperial army land speeders, land raiders etc) are now alluded to being a relic of great crusade/horus heresy era stuff that is either forgotton (like the jetbike) or too rare and expensive for the common grunt guardsmen.


I quite like this approach, it means that older models still have a place today and can be justified as ancient relics or a historical unit.


I personally like the retcons when they are handled well, like putting the 1st edition Imperial Jetbikes as something that was used during the crusade and lost after the Heresy, or explaining why the Imperial Guard don't use Land Raiders when they did in the original list with the Emperor himself ordering that those should be handed over to the Astartes until he would canceled the order. His intention was for it to go back to common use once hte crisis was over, but then he got a bit roughed up by Horus and never spoke again. So the Imperium leaves his order standing.

Heh... the half-Eldar chief Librarian again (though I'm not 100% 'Librarian' was in place as a title already then, or if that was something that got established some time later, in Space Hulk. May just have been 'Marine Psyker'.)... That was something that got used once, in one of the first 40K articles, and then never mentioned again. Guess someone thought "Nah... too Star Trek/DnD... let's not do that...", so it is pretty safe to consider that never happened, hard de-canon, not history.

And the student/teacher above... well, while it could well go as MajorWesJanson suggest there, one would guess there will probably be some sort of corporal punishment involved too "for the good of the students soul"... not unlikely it will be in some kind of permanent records as well, depending on the culture of the school in question. Then, of course, this ends up as one of those plot-hooks as to why the student gets recruited into the Inqusition for daring to question or so....


Sounds a bit like my mam's Irish Catholic schooling.

Lockjaw
27-01-2011, 00:30
The RT picture where two blokes in power armor are sitting in a bar with pints of beer had nothing to do with Space Marines. Its caption reads "Human renegades" and the bar has text "Smash the Empire" painted on the wall.

In RT Space Marines are, if anything, much, much more grimdark than in recent depictions. They were the worst rejects of humanity now serving Empire, recruited from psychotic hive-gangs and the like. They see an alien, they kill an alien. For RT Marines forging alliances with Tau, Necron or Eldar, or drooling over some eldar female, would be impossible... Seems its not so in recent fluff, though.

when, in current fluff, has an SM drooled over a female eldar? except for fanfics and Devientart spacemarine/eldar pr0n.

Crazy Ivan
27-01-2011, 11:02
Thanks for posting that link, Lord Malice, that was an interesting read. Quite well-put.


when, in current fluff, has an SM drooled over a female eldar? except for fanfics and Devientart spacemarine/eldar pr0n.
It might be an allusion to Biel-tan Farseer Macha and a certain Blood Ravens captain (who shall remain nameless) being rather... friendly in the first Dawn of War game? I'm not sure whether Goto's book didn't take that even further...