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gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 00:47
Are the marines what is written about in the fluff - 10' tall walking demigods who can sweep away ten normal men at a time with the wave of a hand- or are they what the rules portray, very elite soldiers who's special training and genetic mods make them worth maybe twice their number in Imperial Guard?

For me, I think that the rules represent the real space marines.

Consider that virtually everything the Imperium says ranges from being an outright lie to at least a corruption or twist of the truth. The space marines are supermen. The emperor is a god. Machines have spirits and must be propitiated, or they will become offended. All aliens are evil scum and must be purged from the galaxy. Psykers are witches. Etc., etc.

All of these things are simply put forward to gull the populace, and to serve some interest of some faction within the Imperium.

The rules, OTOH are supposed to represent the 40K universe on the ground, where the pedal meets the metal, so to speak. This is how they actually perform in battle. Tough hombres, but are they gonna absorb a lascannon shot to the chest, scream "for the Emperor!" and move on to crush a hundred orks? Not likely.

For those who argue otherwise, what would be the point in GW downgrading the toughest and most popular forces in the 40K universe? GW could easily have made the space marines bigger (more expensive, I hasten to add :evilgrin: ) models with tougher rules.

Even in Inquisitor where the space marine is very tough indeed, he still works out to be, on average, only about twice as tough as a more ordinary character.

Whadda you think?

ehlijen
26-01-2011, 00:54
They are exactly as tough as the narrative needs them to be. Is the story about a company? Then each marine is probably going to be about 3-4 enemy soldiers, ie many will die to fire, but they'll hit hard in return. Is the story about a single marine? Then he's going to be a demigod.

Many people deride wierd changes like that in storytelling, but it's usually conductive to making the story actually exciting.

ForgottenLore
26-01-2011, 00:59
Neither.

The fluff for 40K is so over the top, utterly ridiculous hyperbole that to try and take it at face value completely shatters all hope of suspension of disbelief.

On the other hand, the rules are the rules of a game and the needs of the game to be (somewhat) balanced and playable must take priority over accurate representations (of completely fictitious objects and persons).

It is between those two, conflicting, sources that each fan must create his/her own version of the universe.

Lord Aaron
26-01-2011, 01:01
i don't think you played Inquisitor before. I seen a marine cut/shoot/crush/bull rush/dismember/decapitate 7 "regular" human street fighters in less then 10 turns (turns, not actions). A marine in INQ can punch harder with his bare fist then most characters can hit with a power fist. Give him his STANDARD sword and bolter and yes he is a one man army. The only way u can normally kill a marine is with a head shot or two, and that's cus the standard model doesn't come with a helmet! :rolleyes:

So yes, in game, they fit the flush just fine. :cool:

40k is another matter.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 01:19
On the other hand, the rules are the rules of a game and the needs of the game to be (somewhat) balanced and playable must take priority over accurate representations (of completely fictitious objects and persons).

Except that there is no such thing as an accurate representation here. Remember that this is not Napoleonics or WW2, it is a fictional universe, and, thus, the rules can represent anything with pinpoint accuracy, simply because it is being made up on the spot, and does not need to represent anything real.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 01:22
i don't think you played Inquisitor before.


Used to play it with a regular group on a weekly basis. I saw marines go down pretty quickly. Ya just have to use the right weapons/abilities. Remember that many Inquisitor characters are psionc, and marines are not much tougher against psionics than anything else.

TheMav80
26-01-2011, 01:27
Take the representation we have in game. Give them a little plot armour (you roll well opponent rolls poorly) and you have your fluff marines for the most part. There are some crazy out there representations of marines doing crazy stuff. For the most part though, the table represents them well I think.

ForgottenLore
26-01-2011, 01:40
Except that there is no such thing as an accurate representation here.

Hence my parenthetical.

If your claim is that the rules can "represent anything with pinpoint accuracy", then you are saying that one marine is exactly as strong as another, exactly as tough and so on, which defies suspension of disbelief just as much as a terminator surviving an uncontrolled re-entry from orbit.

The rules are an abstraction of the make-believe universe, just as much of the fluff is a hyperbolic exaggeration.

Vaktathi
26-01-2011, 01:52
I'd pin them more towards the rules. Even by the basic tabletop rules, SM's definitely represent hidesouly well equipped and disciplined genetically engineered super soldiers relative to Imperial Guard troops who are, contrary to what most people think, generally amongst the very best troops from the worlds they are tithed from. Just two basic Space Marines are a match for an entire squad of battle hardened Imperial Guard veteran troops when it comes down to hand to hand fighting. A mere squad of Space Marines can confidently engage a platoon sized force of relatively well equipped and trained human soldiers. That's already pretty badass.

Some of the fluff is just beyond ridiculous and strays into the same realm of fantasy as LOTR sam-frodo fanfic. Stuff like Brothers of the Snake or Matt Ward fluff.

I tend to like to use the "give me 100 space marines, failing that, give 1000 other men" as a good benchmark. 100 Space Marines, when coupled with their force multipliers like drop pods and orbital assaults, are probably capable of accomplishing what it would take 1000 troops to do otherwise, though I don't think they equate to 1:10 in a direct pitched battle.

Lukasz_VT
26-01-2011, 01:55
I'm with ForgottenLore 100%.

carldooley
26-01-2011, 01:57
Maybe try movie marines? what were they - T5 & 4W each? with a 2+ armor save?

Makes me think of Future Weapons, an old History Channel series, where they previewed pre-production weapons and design concepts. I wondered how much of it was bull pucky designed to be a psychological deterrent to anyone who would do our soldiers harm.

Mewy
26-01-2011, 02:17
I've always liked the background idea of a space marine will kill 100 enemies before he dies. Thats not to say in one battle alone or in one engagement alone and theres nothing stopping a marine dying from a stray shot or a booby trap. They are just trained and equipped to the extent that it takes a lot to defeat them.

I like to take dan abnetts background at face value. He writes in such a way that it seems possible or conceivable to happen. He, William King/Lee Lighter write very well thought out characters and events that do not suffer from anime-itis.

For me the novels are the best way to gauge background whereas codex narratives are over the top and the game rules are just game rules for fun and balance.

Vaktathi
26-01-2011, 02:20
Even Abnett isn't exactly consistent about it. In the Gaunts Ghosts books, a squad of Ghosts and some hut dwelling villagers take out a squad of Chaos Space Marines, and an Iron Warrior that shows himself leading a horde of Cultists is quickly dispatched by a Krak rocket. Whereas with Brothers of the Snake, a single tactical squad kills literally thousands of Dark Eldar, and a single Space Marine is sent to deal with a crashed Dark Eldar spacecraft with dozens of survivors.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 02:24
I've always liked the background idea of a space marine will kill 100 enemies before he dies. Thats not to say in one battle alone or in one engagement alone and theres nothing stopping a marine dying from a stray shot or a booby trap. They are just trained and equipped to the extent that it takes a lot to defeat them.

I like to take dan abnetts background at face value. He writes in such a way that it seems possible or conceivable to happen. He, William King/Lee Lighter write very well thought out characters and events that do not suffer from anime-itis.

For me the novels are the best way to gauge background whereas codex narratives are over the top and the game rules are just game rules for fun and balance.

And yet Ibram Gaunt and a few of his men kill off 5 chaos marines without taking any casualties.

Limbic Librarian
26-01-2011, 02:31
Even Abnett isn't exactly consistent about it. In the Gaunts Ghosts books, a squad of Ghosts and some hut dwelling villagers take out a squad of Chaos Space Marines, and an Iron Warrior that shows himself leading a horde of Cultists is quickly dispatched by a Krak rocket. Whereas with Brothers of the Snake, a single tactical squad kills literally thousands of Dark Eldar, and a single Space Marine is sent to deal with a crashed Dark Eldar spacecraft with dozens of survivors.


This was before 4+ Poisioned Weapons were available in the Dark Eldar armory two years later :(

But the fluff of what Space Marines are typcially depends on the author. To me they're augmented humans, with the strength of perhaps five 'military' men further augmented by their armor. They are drummed up as demigods in Imperial literature, but lasguns and whatnot are shown as taking them down.

'More refined ogryn' comes to mind for some reason.

TheMav80
26-01-2011, 02:37
Gaunt, a skilled sowrdsman armed with an ancient master crafted power weapon, manages to kill a marine.

Another takes an unarmoured face full of poisoned crossbow bolts.

Another dies from having a bunch of demo charges dropped on it's head.

In the meantime, none of the 5 (or 6 I forget how many) Ghosts die...but the Marines are easily slaughtering the villagers with no problem.

None of these examples is some sort of crazy contrivance.

Bestaltan
26-01-2011, 02:42
For those who argue otherwise, what would be the point in GW downgrading the toughest and most popular forces in the 40K universe?


Maybe because GW is a model company, and to sell models, they have to ensure that every codex is balanced with both the rules and other codices? When you have an IG colonel running around with the strength of a trygon, you realize that fluff =/= rules.

TheMav80
26-01-2011, 02:46
Maybe because GW is a model company, and to sell models, they have to ensure that every codex is balanced with both the rules and other codices? When you have an IG colonel running around with the strength of a trygon, you realize that fluff =/= rules.

It still makes sense. On the table top strength does not equal how much you can bench press. It is your ability to wound something by punching it. Putting on a power fist does not mean you can lift a tank over your head.

Thats all the rules for Straken really are. He has a fancy powerfist.

Vaktathi
26-01-2011, 02:55
Gaunt, a skilled sowrdsman armed with an ancient master crafted power weapon, manages to kill a marine.

Another takes an unarmoured face full of poisoned crossbow bolts.

Another dies from having a bunch of demo charges dropped on it's head.

In the meantime, none of the 5 (or 6 I forget how many) Ghosts die...but the Marines are easily slaughtering the villagers with no problem.

None of these examples is some sort of crazy contrivance.
I agree, that scenario was not very far fetched, except that in Abnetts other writing the Marines would never fall prey to such things.

When they run into the Dark Eldar, they just butcher them like cattle. Even fleeing, the Dark Eldar should not be gunned down in their thousands by a single Tac squad.

TheMav80
26-01-2011, 03:01
I agree, that scenario was not very far fetched, except that in Abnetts other writing the Marines would never fall prey to such things.

When they run into the Dark Eldar, they just butcher them like cattle. Even fleeing, the Dark Eldar should not be gunned down in their thousands by a single Tac squad.

Oh, I've never read Brotherhood of the Snake.

Still have not gotten to Prospero Burns either, so no idea how he represents them there either.

Vaktathi
26-01-2011, 03:10
Oh, I've never read Brotherhood of the Snake. It paints a much different picture of the Space Marines. As I said, it's got a tac squad gunning down literally thousands of Dark Eldar, and a single basic Tac marine being sent to take eliminate a raiding party from a crashed Dark Eldar pirate vessel, and the whole time he's like "Why on earth would we need more than one Marine for this? Why would you even ask that?" :p



Still have not gotten to Prospero Burns either, so no idea how he represents them there either.
Neither have I, I need to do that. I've got it, but haven't read it yet.

Hellebore
26-01-2011, 03:16
Put it this way, no matter how tough a marine is, he's still made of human flesh. That stuff is very squishy.

So, if you're going to make rules for marines more 'fluffy' then so long as a plasma gun can kill a marine in a single shot, the rules should be fine. Space marines cannot withstand the heat of a star, no matter the ridiculous plot armour. Their armour is thinner than a tank's and a plasma gun can kill a tank.

Therefore, so long as a marine can be killed easily by a plasma gun and all weapons and models scale to those two things correctly (ie a melta gun is nastier), then you shouldn't run into problems.

Hellebore

Meriwether
26-01-2011, 03:29
There's no such thing as "real space marines"...

Lothlanathorian
26-01-2011, 06:48
There's no such thing as "real space marines"...

Meri, sometimes I love you.



I think the portrayal of Space Marines in Rynn's World was pretty fair and balanced. They weren't too OP and they weren't blistering idiots.

jacktheinedible
26-01-2011, 08:13
Personally, i view space marines as the (slightly larger then) man-sized equivalent of a light IFV. Armour capable of shrugging off conventionaly anti-personnel weaponry (i.e. lasguns) and offering some protection against heavier stuff (boltguns would not reliably penetrate, but heavy bolters would probably not be fun). Weapons that are closer to vehicle sized then man portable (.75 calibre is roughly 20mm, which is a bit beyond mansized for automatic weapons).

Then throw in the decades of training to just become a marine, the selection process that weeds out the weak, and the modifications they undergo, and you get a person that is very competant at killing people. (and can gain their foes memories by eating them after the shooting is done...)

But i'll agree with Hellebore here, anti tank weapons would definately be not fun for space marines to be shot by, and this would explain the marines tendancies to fight in CQB situations. (if you ignore ALOT of the artwork of them running in a mob through a field...)

Using rules to figure out how good they are is awkward, since inquisitor, deathwatch, 40k, and epic all portray them a little bit different, same with the fluff. I'm just trying to find a happy mix between marines throwing bolt rounds at people doing more damage then shooting the gun, and the somewhat better then normal people marines in 40k. (plus more then a tad of my own application of the rule of cool)

rabblerouser
26-01-2011, 08:30
This thread makes me thing of the Battle of Thermopylae. Legend is one thing, but reality is altogether different.

Space marines are living legends of the Imperium... but in reality they are still human

Born Again
26-01-2011, 09:01
Are the marines what is written about in the fluff - 10' tall walking demigods

Oh how I hope you are being sarcastic and intentionally over done there, otherwise this SM height exaggeration is getting WAY out of hand...


There's no such thing as "real space marines"...

Don't say that, you'll make the children cry...

As for the question, I think they're both balanced pretty right. The representation of Marines varies a lot in the fluff, as it does on the table... we've all seen those times when with a freak dice roll, a Tactical squad is reduced to under half strength in one turn, just as much as we see one guy trample through hordes of Orks unassisted. Dice are funny things.

Look at it this way, a marine shot by a lasgun in the game has roughly a one in three chance of getting downed. Fluff wise, it could hit a neck joint, eye slit, existing damage to the armour... or a dozen shots could bounce off his shoulder and chest plates harmlessly. I'm sure that across the whole galaxy, lots of both happens.

Bear in mind though that much of the marine's toughness is mental. As already stated, at the end of the day they're made of the same squishy flesh as a guardsman. However, when a guardsman gets his arm blown off, he falls to the crowd screaming. When a marine gets his arm blown off, he picks it up and starts bludgeoning you with it. He's still in pain, he just doesn't care.

AndrewGPaul
26-01-2011, 09:46
I'd pin them more towards the rules.

Which rules? 40K? Epic? Inquisitor? Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch? They all represent Space Marines, and yet they all do it differently. In 40K, aMarine will be killed by a lascannon 5 times in six. In Inquisitor, he has better than even odds of merely suffering a flesh wound when hit in the head. In Epic, a Thunderhawk has a transport capability of up to 56 Marines, compared to 30 in 40K.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
26-01-2011, 10:07
Remember that the 40K rules and stats for marines go all the way back to Rogue Trader, where marines weren't 10' tall and shot fireballs out their ****. They were 'just' cybernetically enhanced humans. Then fluff changed, the Eye of Horus went from being a hideout for smugglers and a good place to party, to being a paradimensional cesspool. Marines got 'bigger' but the 40K rules didn't change fundamentally to really reflect this difference compared to normal humans.

Minsc
26-01-2011, 10:09
Maybe try movie marines? what were they - T5 & 4W each? with a 2+ armor save?

The marines in 'Ultramarines the movie' are more T3 W1 and with a 6+ armour save. :P

dragonet111
26-01-2011, 10:12
The marines in 'Ultramarines the movie' are more T3 W1 and with a 6+ armour save. :P

That's because they don't have the White Dwarf army list (Which is more a squad list since you only play with 10 dudes in 1500 points:))

NixonAsADaemonPrince
26-01-2011, 11:07
Space Marines are represented by the Fluff and not the rules. Proper Space Marines are a bit impractical to balance in 40k.

Shnerg
26-01-2011, 12:09
Peoples, you forget to realise that none of this is real. You could write of Calgar giving a reach around to a Tyrannofex, and nobody would moan, because it doesn't exist.

Mewy
26-01-2011, 12:12
Peoples, you forget to realise that none of this is real. You could write of Calgar giving a reach around to a Tyrannofex, and nobody would moan, because it doesn't exist.

I think did that once... ;)

KingDeath
26-01-2011, 12:44
I like the representation of Spacemarines in the Imperial Armour books.
Extremely well equipped and skilled but if something goes wrong they suffer greatly, thanks to their low numbers.

Azulthar
26-01-2011, 12:50
I definitely look to the rules for the most objective power comparison. Fluff is always overhyped and exaggerated. You could just as well have "Movie Orks" and "Movie Tau" rules that are vastly superior to the ones in the codex, to represent them with the Protagonist Buff.

Bubble Ghost
26-01-2011, 13:10
Peoples, you forget to realise that none of this is real. You could write of Calgar giving a reach around to a Tyrannofex, and nobody would moan, because it doesn't exist.

An argument that dismisses the relevance of wondering about Space Marines, certainly - but the collateral damage there is the entire concept of literature. Turns out every novelist ever has completely wasted their life. Take that, Dickens!

Space Marines may not be real, but the stories about them are real stories that we read. The setting captures people's imagination and inspires them, and so people naturally want to find out more about it. And that's real enough to care about.

There's a difference between merely caring and getting worked up into a frothing lather about it, of course, but for the most part 40K fans seem to do pretty well for that compared certain other sub-sects of geekdom. Probably because our source material is so ridiculous to start with.:D

AndrewGPaul
26-01-2011, 14:32
No, I'll think you'll find ranting about minutiae of things which don't exist is popular amongst all forms of geeks. See also Star Trek vs Star Wars, comics fans, video gamers and the dark and terrifying depths of TV fandom.

Malice313
26-01-2011, 15:09
*full of boyish enthusiasm* They can survive a fall from orbit*nodding emphatically*



...*curls up under a blanket and weeps*:cries:



This is just one of many reasons I maintain that BL stuff is non-canonical trash. If one of the BL Chaos Renegades was heard to say "Donner unt Blitzen, Zeez Englanders fight like madmen!" while Gaunt and his lads hammered the Bosch (as they issued another code name in homage to a dead Ghost), in all honestly I would not be surprised!

I'd only find BL books more interesting if they were softer and more absorbent.:shifty:

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 15:17
This thread makes me thing of the Battle of Thermopylae. Legend is one thing, but reality is altogether different.

Space marines are living legends of the Imperium... but in reality they are still human

My point exactly. Why would anyone expect a culture like the Imperium's to do anything but glorify it's heroes in a totally over the top manner?

Take even early American culture as an example of something similar. We know there were historically a Davy Crockett, Mike Fink, Daniel Webster, etc., but is it likely that the tall stories told about them are entirely accurate?

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 15:21
That's because they don't have the White Dwarf army list (Which is more a squad list since you only play with 10 dudes in 1500 points:))

I've heard about this, but never seen it. Which WD is that in?

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 15:23
Peoples, you forget to realise that none of this is real. You could write of Calgar giving a reach around to a Tyrannofex, and nobody would moan, because it doesn't exist.

Absolutely. We're just talking about the imaginary Imperium and what the imaginary space marines are like in that imaginary setting.

At least I am. If anybody thinks all this stuff is real, please see a competent psychiatrist like NOW. :wtf:

KingDeath
26-01-2011, 15:27
Absolutely. We're just talking about the imaginary Imperium and what the imaginary space marines are like in that imaginary setting.

At least I am. If anybody thinks all this stuff is real, please see a competent psychiatrist like NOW. :wtf:

Will that psychiatrist help me to organize my own Black Crusade?

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 15:35
Gaunt, a skilled sowrdsman armed with an ancient master crafted power weapon, manages to kill a marine.

Another takes an unarmoured face full of poisoned crossbow bolts.

Another dies from having a bunch of demo charges dropped on it's head.

In the meantime, none of the 5 (or 6 I forget how many) Ghosts die...but the Marines are easily slaughtering the villagers with no problem.

None of these examples is some sort of crazy contrivance.

They are all crazy contrivances. Remember that these guys are also supposed to be super-tacticians. Are super-tecticians going to let themselves get into a situation where, because of a lack of anything even resembling recon or discipline, one of them wanders under a tree and gets a bunch of bombs dropped on his head? :rolleyes: Or wander around in battle with an unarmored head, knowing that there are local savages who probably (read 'definitely') are going to have access to some sort of missile weapons? :eyebrows:

Bubble Ghost
26-01-2011, 15:37
No, I'll think you'll find ranting about minutiae of things which don't exist is popular amongst all forms of geeks. See also Star Trek vs Star Wars, comics fans, video gamers and the dark and terrifying depths of TV fandom.

Oh, granted, I just meant that for some reason fans of GW games don't seem to do it quite as much. They get into it, certainly, but don't seem to lose their rag over it quite as often. Probably because they're too busy losing their rag over the game rules instead.

Although maybe I've just been hanging out on the wrong boards.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 15:37
Will that psychiatrist help me to organize my
own Black Crusade?

Of course he will sir. Just slip into this white jacket, and we'll go see him.

;)

KingDeath
26-01-2011, 15:43
Of course he will sir. Just slip into this white jacket, and we'll go see him.

;)

Thanks for your generous help good Sir, when i have finally crushed the false emperor and his weakling-servants we shall rule the galaxy together.

Hendarion
26-01-2011, 15:45
The fluff for 40K is so over the top, utterly ridiculous hyperbole that to try and take it at face value completely shatters all hope of suspension of disbelief.
Nooooooooooooooooo... don't shatter my view of the totally imba Muweeenz!

Felwether
26-01-2011, 16:37
i don't think you played Inquisitor before. I seen a marine cut/shoot/crush/bull rush/dismember/decapitate 7 "regular" human street fighters in less then 10 turns (turns, not actions). A marine in INQ can punch harder with his bare fist then most characters can hit with a power fist. Give him his STANDARD sword and bolter and yes he is a one man army. The only way u can normally kill a marine is with a head shot or two, and that's cus the standard model doesn't come with a helmet! :rolleyes:

So yes, in game, they fit the flush just fine. :cool:

40k is another matter.

The stats for Marines in Inquisitor are completely broken. Sure they should be well beyond humans in most areas but S 250? Not a chance.

Malice313
26-01-2011, 17:27
The stats for Marines in Inquisitor are completely broken. Sure they should be well beyond humans in most areas but S 250? Not a chance.

Gav "Rule of Cool" Thorpe at his *ahem* finest.:shifty:

Lord Aaron
26-01-2011, 19:40
In Epic, a Thunderhawk has a transport capability of up to 56 Marines, compared to 30 in 40K.

56? what crack are you smoken? its 8 stands = 40 marines... seriously :wtf: , how did you get 56? ... i mean.. I done some crazy drugs before and even then I dont think I coulda come up with a number like that! :D

Lord Aaron
26-01-2011, 19:49
The stats for Marines in Inquisitor are completely broken. Sure they should be well beyond humans in most areas but S 250? Not a chance.

lol , another person who probably played 1 game of Inquisitor.. no probably just walked by a game.. ya... :rolleyes:

Or better yet some one whos war band of "SUPPPPER ELITE 1337!!!" , got wrecked by 1 marine with a basic load out.

Now Im going to say this right now, the INQ game is meant for role playing games , not one off games, unfortunately most 40k people dont know what that means :p . But its things like how EVERY piece of war gear was 5 points, no matter what it was, frag grenades 5 points, vortex grenade 5 points. Some people will call that broken, but to any one who's played the game as it suppose to, its just fine.

GM? whats that???? :D :rolleyes:

dragonet111
26-01-2011, 20:01
I've heard about this, but never seen it. Which WD is that in?

It's an old issue. I don't remember sorry I borrowed that white dwarf from a friend.

Bubble Ghost
26-01-2011, 20:30
lol , another person who probably played 1 game of Inquisitor.. no probably just walked by a game.. ya... :rolleyes:

Or better yet some one whos war band of "SUPPPPER ELITE 1337!!!" , got wrecked by 1 marine with a basic load out.

Now Im going to say this right now, the INQ game is meant for role playing games , not one off games, unfortunately most 40k people dont know what that means :p . But its things like how EVERY piece of war gear was 5 points, no matter what it was, frag grenades 5 points, vortex grenade 5 points. Some people will call that broken, but to any one who's played the game as it suppose to, its just fine.

GM? whats that???? :D :rolleyes:

Anyone who even uses points values in Inquisitor is completely missing the point, but I still think the Marine stats were broken. But not because they're too high for other characters - it's because they're too high for the rules to deal with. Consider that a Space Marine in that game does more damage by throwing his bolter at you than by shooting you with it. The core system simply can't cope with stats much higher than 100, and that 250 strength completely broke it. They should have gone with lower stats plus some unique abilities instead.

Inquisitor was great fun and I loved it, but it was utterly, hilariously broken in many places, and it's no more use for demonstrating anything than 40K's rules are.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 20:51
The stats for Marines in Inquisitor are completely broken. Sure they should be well beyond humans in most areas but S 250? Not a chance.

Yeah, differences between different systems are understandable, but Inquisitor space marines represent a total reversal. They can beat up a genestealer in hand to hand combat, which is pretty much impossible in any other game based in the 40K universe (at least any I have played, including 40K, DH, and Space Hulk).

Xandros
26-01-2011, 20:58
I really like how Forge World paints space marines. They're not made to fight wars, they make point strikes with overwhelming speed.

"But," you say, "they were made to fight wars, to conquer the galaxy for the Emperor". Yes, they were then, but then is not now. The space marine chapters are but a shadow of their former glory, for which chaos space marines hold them in contempt. They do not know great heroes or boundless human ambition, being a pale imitation of the ideals still held high by those fighting the Long War.

Lord-Caerolion
26-01-2011, 21:56
They do not know great heroes or boundless human ambition, being a pale imitation of the ideals still held high by those fighting the Long War.

Matt Ward unfortunately disagrees...

Xandros
26-01-2011, 22:21
Oh sod off. Matt Ward this Matt Ward that. Completely missing the point. The very first Ultramarines codex from the mid nineties had exactly the same self-glorifying shallow stories as the one we have now. I think it sucks, but the suck is not of Matt Ward's invention. In fact I think he did an awesome job on the background of Codex Blood Angels.

Bunnahabhain
26-01-2011, 22:21
Matt Ward unfortunately disagrees...

Thus proving it correct.

My feeling for where your 'average' tactical marine should sit is a combination of Sternguard and vanguard veterans. They should outshoot anyone except heavy weapons troops, and beat anyone bar top end CC specialists- ie genestealers, harliquins at close combat. They should equal about 10 guardsmen either in shootingh or CC

That is my version of in-universe credible, but powerful unit that leaves room for terminators and the like to improve one aspect of what they do. It also makes sense with their role in the background.

AndrewGPaul
26-01-2011, 23:05
56? what crack are you smoken? its 8 stands = 40 marines... seriously :wtf: , how did you get 56? ... i mean.. I done some crazy drugs before and even then I dont think I coulda come up with a number like that! :D

Perhaps you should go and actually read the rules, then, instead of doing those drugs. :rolleyes:

The rules clearly state that an infantry stand can contain between three and seven infantry models. Eight times seven is ...

jacktheinedible
26-01-2011, 23:08
They are all crazy contrivances. Remember that these guys are also supposed to be super-tacticians. Are super-tecticians going to let themselves get into a situation where, because of a lack of anything even resembling recon or discipline, one of them wanders under a tree and gets a bunch of bombs dropped on his head? :rolleyes: Or wander around in battle with an unarmored head, knowing that there are local savages who probably (read 'definitely') are going to have access to some sort of missile weapons? :eyebrows:

I'd recommend actually reading that section from the book (can't remember the title, but its part of the last gaunts ghosts omnibus). The chaos marines are basically portrayed as incredibly cocky (from the being chaos space marines and all) and getting caught up in the fun of mowing down primative people with puny weapons. While it is a bit over the top, it was a fairly believable portrayal of the chaos marines.

If you want silly chaos marines, the earlier gaunts ghosts novel has a few, notably the one that stood at the top of a ramp shooting guardsmen until he took a krak missile to the torso.

Lord-Caerolion
26-01-2011, 23:22
Oh sod off. Matt Ward this Matt Ward that. Completely missing the point. The very first Ultramarines codex from the mid nineties had exactly the same self-glorifying shallow stories as the one we have now. I think it sucks, but the suck is not of Matt Ward's invention. In fact I think he did an awesome job on the background of Codex Blood Angels.

Wow, guess I touched a nerve there.

I'm along the lines of what Bunnahabhein says. They're stronger, faster etc than the normal human, but short of superhuman. Stronger than weightlifters, but actually capable of moving with agility.

gloriousbattle
26-01-2011, 23:51
I'd recommend actually reading that section from the book...

I did. Can't remember the title either, but it was the one where Gaunt "inherited" one of the chief's sons.


The chaos marines are basically portrayed as incredibly cocky (from the being chaos space marines and all) and getting caught up in the fun of mowing down primative people with puny weapons. While it is a bit over the top, it was a fairly believable portrayal of the chaos marines.

In other words, a crazy contrivance. If Chaos marines were that stupid, the Imperium could have easily wiped them out long ago by teleporting a hundred or so savages with primitive weapons into the Eye of Terror. ;)

Hellebore
26-01-2011, 23:55
I challenge anyone to find stories like one dreadnought fighting an entire necron army (read: anti dreadnought army), Calgar fighting an ork waaagh! on a bridge for a day and a night (those gauntlets must be pretty special, with unlimited ammo), Calgar defeating an Avatar, Calgar using peasants to defeat 300 space marines, Lysander escaping Planet Inescapable naked but with gutz(TM) or a host of other silly stories in the current Codex - find those sorts of stories in the 2nd ed Codex.

They aren't there. Pretty much any time you read something in the background that seems more reasonable -Ulrik the Slayer only killed THREE khorne berserkers to become famous!? Where's the mandatory Avatar kill or several days of slaughter? It's almost entirely because it was written in 2nd edition.

Hellebore

Xandros
27-01-2011, 00:22
Details, Hellebore. It's written within the same theme (Whatever theme that is).

jacktheinedible
27-01-2011, 02:21
In other words, a crazy contrivance. If Chaos marines were that stupid, the Imperium could have easily wiped them out long ago by teleporting a hundred or so savages with primitive weapons into the Eye of Terror. ;)

i guess that means the 13th company of the space wolves should be doing pretty good then ;)

I will agree with you though, normal humans defeating space marines of any kind need some serious advantages, like anti tank weapons, hordes of people or the writer's favour if they want a chance to do much beyond die explosively. That scene was the best one i've encountered where humans and marines fight though, so it wins a few brownie points in my books.

Hellebore does have a point, space marines have been winning the "lore creep" lately, although everyone seems to have been effected. Dark eldar living in the biggest city ever and taking whole world as slaves, imperial guard actually winning battles, etc.

Vaktathi
27-01-2011, 02:25
imperial guard actually winning battles, etc.I like how this is seen as "lore creep" :p

gloriousbattle
27-01-2011, 02:34
I like how this is seen as "lore creep" :p

jacktheinedible has a point, though. The last thing you want to be in the 40k universe is an ordinary human. :)

TheMav80
27-01-2011, 02:44
The Chaos Marines ARE that stupid, even in their own backround.

GW would have us believe that the World Eaters are still around despite the fact that they eschew all battlefield tactics and simply charge across the field like mindless beasts.

Even Tyranids have better tactical acumen.

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-01-2011, 06:00
I'd pin them more towards the rules. Even by the basic tabletop rules, SM's definitely represent hidesouly well equipped and disciplined genetically engineered super soldiers relative to Imperial Guard troops who are, contrary to what most people think, generally amongst the very best troops from the worlds they are tithed from. Just two basic Space Marines are a match for an entire squad of battle hardened Imperial Guard veteran troops when it comes down to hand to hand fighting. A mere squad of Space Marines can confidently engage a platoon sized force of relatively well equipped and trained human soldiers. That's already pretty badass.

Some of the fluff is just beyond ridiculous and strays into the same realm of fantasy as LOTR sam-frodo fanfic. Stuff like Brothers of the Snake or Matt Ward fluff.

I tend to like to use the "give me 100 space marines, failing that, give 1000 other men" as a good benchmark. 100 Space Marines, when coupled with their force multipliers like drop pods and orbital assaults, are probably capable of accomplishing what it would take 1000 troops to do otherwise, though I don't think they equate to 1:10 in a direct pitched battle.


Yep, Brothers of the Snake was sooo over the top, yet it still was a good read. Not great but good.

I really think this is a shift from the 'old physcoindoctorated' marines, and to the new ' shining knights of paragon mat ward fanboiism'.

"I cry out for troops and you give me rhetoric- I plead for ammunition and you give me speeches- I ask you again, Commander, what can you pledge me?"

" A heroic death, Captain."

Reported holocom conversation between Commander Gulim Tarrel and Captain Roima of the besieged Alharmo garrison shortly before the final Ork assault.

I don't know about you, but that screems 40k to me more then Calgar doing' Ultrasupermegagokupunch' on the 697th Avatar. :rolleyes:

Vaktathi
27-01-2011, 06:21
jacktheinedible has a point, though. The last thing you want to be in the 40k universe is an ordinary human. :)

Oh I understand, but at the same time 99% of the Imperium's conflicts are fought almost exclusively by the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and the vast majority of the time they are victorious, else the Imperium would not exist by the time of the 41st millenium. The simple fact of the Imperial Guard winning battles shouldn't be lore creep when put in that perspective. :p


I don't know about you, but that screems 40k to me more then Calgar doing' Ultrasupermegagokupunch' on the 697th Avatar. Agreed

Hellebore
27-01-2011, 07:44
Details, Hellebore. It's written within the same theme (Whatever theme that is).

Well it clearly isn't if you can't see a single theme. The theme is very different.

In 2nd ed the background rarely had single characters single-handedly winning the war or performing OTT feats that took up pages of text to describe. The current edition is soaked in superhero prose so purple it looks like the bruised remains of literature.

The previous edition background was not so enamoured with trying tell us how awesome Fred McAwesome is (because we're too stupid to figure that out from his name). Read the background in codex space marines and what should be about the Ultramarines is all about Marneus Calgar.

It used to be that what was said about a character existed almost entirely within their entry in the book, not taking up the timeline and historical background of the core of the book.

The Imperium is 10,000 years old and the Ultramarines just as venerable yet when it comes to describing the Ultramarines all we get is how many times Calgar won at everything. Apparently before Calgar showed up the Ultramarines did nothing interesting and after he showed up only HIS exploits are worthy of text. The codex isn't 100% a Calgarfest, but when a large portion of the background is simply trying to jam down your throat how awesome one dude is, it get's very boring and 1 dimensional.

Hellebore

AndrewGPaul
27-01-2011, 08:29
I really think this is a shift from the 'old physcoindoctorated' marines, and to the new ' shining knights of paragon mat ward fanboiism'.

I didn't realise Matt Ward (at least have the decency to spell his name correctly) wrote 2nd edition 40K.

jacktheinedible
27-01-2011, 08:44
To be fair AndrewGPaul, space marines have been getting much nicer in recent years. Although Ward isnt the only culprit, he did write the most recent book, and cranked quite a few things up to 11 that probably should have been left alone.

If anyone has it, theres an excellent story in the 2nd ed angels of death codex about a blood angel assault on a bunker from a guardmans perspective. It basically portrays the marines as absoulty terrifying to the guardsman, especially when one shouts "for the emperor" in the guardsman's face, nearly knocking him over. The new books seem to lean more towards marines being more knightly and fun to be around then terrifying engines of destruction that get 30 minutes a day for free time if they have a nice chapter master (most of which they spend praying or doing more training anyways).

Azulthar
27-01-2011, 09:10
It looks like the 40k fluff is taking steps back towards High Fantasy in space. I don't like it, but it's not just Matt Ward. Look at the Space Wolf codex by Phil Kelly for example. Itīs clear this is just a direction that GW wants to go in, and probably one of the goals the writers get from the higher-ups when they start new projects.

Bunnahabhain
27-01-2011, 12:02
Oh I understand, but at the same time 99% of the Imperium's conflicts are fought almost exclusively by the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and the vast majority of the time they are victorious, else the Imperium would not exist by the time of the 41st millenium. The simple fact of the Imperial Guard winning battles shouldn't be lore creep when put in that perspective. :p

Agreed
I'm fairly sure that " Casualties are acceptable, failure is not" as a Guard motto dates from around the the time the Guard stopped being the Imperial army, and became the Guard...

Victory is rarely in doubt, it is only if the cost of this victory is too high that is in question.

And of course, back then, the Eldar were helpful as often as not, and you could bargin with Orks sometimes ( you stay on that planet, and we stay on this one...), and the squats were generally useful, and it felt like it wasn't the whole Galaxy vs the Imperium...

Godzooky
27-01-2011, 12:17
The Imperium is 10,000 years old and the Ultramarines just as venerable yet when it comes to describing the Ultramarines all we get is how many times Calgar won at everything. Apparently before Calgar showed up the Ultramarines did nothing interesting and after he showed up only HIS exploits are worthy of text. The codex isn't 100% a Calgarfest, but when a large portion of the background is simply trying to jam down your throat how awesome one dude is, it get's very boring and 1 dimensional.

Hellebore

Well, if there's enough interest, perhaps GW will split the SM codex for the next edition into Codex: SM and Codex: Marneus Calgar. Powerfingers crossed! :D

gloriousbattle
27-01-2011, 13:01
"I cry out for troops and you give me rhetoric- I plead for ammunition and yuo give me speeches- I ask you again, Commander, what can you pledge me?"

" A heroic death, Captain."

Reported holocom conversation between Commander Gulim Tarrel and Captain Roima of the besieged Alharmo garrison shortly before the final Ork assault.

I don't know about you, but that screems 40k to me more then Calgar doing' Ultrasupermegagokupunch' on the 697th Avatar. :rolleyes:

Absolutely.

Gingerwerewolf
27-01-2011, 13:55
Going back to the Op's question I think that Marines are kinda Both. The stories that we read, Brotherhood of the Snake and so forth make out marines to be god like but thats down to the Narrative.

People are only interested in amazing stories, not mediocre ones amazing ones that stand out. In an Imperium thats as big as the Emperors you are only going to hear the stories of amazing heroics.

Which story are you more likely to hear about? The squad of 10 marines who take down 100 Orks, or the 3 Tactical squads, a Predator and an Assault squad who get into a protracted battle with a dug in detachement of Traitorous Imperial Guard?

But we're forgetting one very important rule here:

All Space Marine Stories are subject to the Inverse Ninja Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_Evil_Marksmanship#Inverse_Ninja_Law

Im willing to bet that none of you have ever taken just one space marine against an entire Ork force. ;)

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-01-2011, 15:55
It looks like the 40k fluff is taking steps back towards High Fantasy in space. I don't like it, but it's not just Matt Ward. Look at the Space Wolf codex by Phil Kelly for example. Itīs clear this is just a direction that GW wants to go in, and probably one of the goals the writers get from the higher-ups when they start new projects.


Welllll..... Space Wolves have always been silly. Read their first WD army list. The one before the 2nd Edition codex, the wolfymcwolfywolfinson was still there. I agree that its been cranked to 11 by Phil Kelly, but how much of that was Matt Ward wispering into his ear while he was writing " You know you want a Space Wolf riding a cyberwolf in the army book.... so do it..." :shifty: I lay that one down to ' Space Wolves have always been silly.'

I agree with some of the previous posters, it seems like these UltraMarine guys just made this little book that 'most' of the Spacemarine follow. But nothing interesting happened until Calgar the Avatar slayer(tm) took over, then he beat up the nids, then he beat up the eldar, then he beat up the nids again, then he beat up chaos then he beat up somemore eldar including falcon punching Avatars for fun.

I guess I just like the old grim-dark fluff. Where it was grim-dark, with alot of subtle humour. Not grim-dark for the sake of being grimdark, "It dark man, so freaking dark, grimdarkdarkgrim. :rolleyes: And yes I know the fluff written nowadays is for 12 year-olds but the OP asked the question.

OK, im sorry for turning this into a essay but here is some more 'Wardisms' from the BA book.

p16- 995.M41 The Gehenna Campaign.

"Commander Dante and the 3rd Companybattle againsted the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brillance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe.

The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battlewarn to quarantee victory over the other, and, atleast for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so reciently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one."


Now if we replaced the second paragraph with;

After both sides fought unrelenting battles the Tyranid Hive mind was finally defeted. The Blood Angels Apothocarys wept as they collected the gene-seed of the fallen after the fierce fighting. When Dante's forward elements junped over Devils's Crag they found no sign of the Silent King or his endless legions of Robotic warriors. With a heavy heart at not completing his task, but knowing they could not fight another protracted battle, the Blood Angels called down their Storm Raven's to quit the planet. But Dante knew that there would be a reconing with the Silent King one day.


Now that was just 2 minutes off the top of my head, it gets the same point across. But they arn't giving great bear hugs to there new BFF's the Necrons.

AndrewGPaul
27-01-2011, 16:03
Actually, I like the original version. The Blood Angels and Necrons going their separate ways is out of the norm for both factions, and adds an air of mystery. Why did the Lord simply let the Blood Angels leave? Why did Dante let the Necrons leave? What was his ulterior motive? Yours is just "Looks like we were too slow, boys. Ah well, he'll turn up soon enough". I like these little touches which show that the Imperium isn't so monolithic as most people make out. Between that and the Space Wolves' hosting a party for a load of Striking Scorpions, we see that not everyone buys totally into the unrelenting xenophobia.

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-01-2011, 16:15
Actually, I like the original version. The Blood Angels and Necrons going their separate ways is out of the norm for both factions, and adds an air of mystery. Why did the Lord simply let the Blood Angels leave? Why did Dante let the Necrons leave? What was his ulterior motive? Yours is just "Looks like we were too slow, boys. Ah well, he'll turn up soon enough". I like these little touches which show that the Imperium isn't so monolithic as most people make out. Between that and the Space Wolves' hosting a party for a load of Striking Scorpions, we see that not everyone buys totally into the unrelenting xenophobia.


Like I said before, SpaceWovles have always been kinda daft. Maybe they left because they couldn't teleport more Warriors to the planet. Was Gehenna a Tomb world? Why where the 'crons there? Maybe the defeat of the hive mind was more important then finishing off some Space Marines? Even though the fluff points to the 'nids avoiding tomb worlds, maybe the local tomb world is heavly populated with blanks and the 'nids where on a collision course with it. Maybe the 'crons wanted to take their time abducting the blanks and making them into Pariha's. Who know's?

Godzooky
27-01-2011, 16:16
Mike's version sounded like it needed to end with Dante falling to his knees after discovering the 'crons-a-gone and shouting "Nooooooo!!!" to the sky in the style of EpIII-Vader/Seymour Skinner. ;)

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-01-2011, 16:21
Mike's version sounded like it needed to end with Dante falling to his knees after discovering the 'crons-a-gone and shouting "Nooooooo!!!" to the sky in the style of EpIII-Vader/Seymour Skinner. ;)


Well atleast Dante wasn't singing, Denver Silent-king the last Dinosaur Necron, he's our friend and a whole lot more. ;)

Gingerwerewolf
27-01-2011, 16:58
Mike's version sounded like it needed to end with Dante falling to his knees after discovering the 'crons-a-gone and shouting "Nooooooo!!!" to the sky in the style of EpIII-Vader/Seymour Skinner. ;)

No, he should have balled up his fist, stared right at the Camera and said

"KHAAAAAAAAAAN!"

After all the Necros had just been Buried alive...

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-01-2011, 17:25
No, he should have balled up his fist, stared right at the Camera and said

"KHAAAAAAAAAAN!"

After all the Necros had just been Buried alive...


I guess we can make a new sitcom, Two Calgars and a Khan :angel:

gloriousbattle
27-01-2011, 22:33
Actually, I like the original version. The Blood Angels and Necrons going their separate ways is out of the norm for both factions, and adds an air of mystery. Why did the Lord simply let the Blood Angels leave? Why did Dante let the Necrons leave? What was his ulterior motive? Yours is just "Looks like we were too slow, boys. Ah well, he'll turn up soon enough". I like these little touches which show that the Imperium isn't so monolithic as most people make out. Between that and the Space Wolves' hosting a party for a load of Striking Scorpions, we see that not everyone buys totally into the unrelenting xenophobia.

I've always thought that the necrons had some ulterior motive that involved sparing man (perhaps not in a very friendly way).

Xandros
27-01-2011, 23:10
It does very explicitly say in Codex: Necrons that they created us, possibly for the explicit purpose of cultivating the pariah gene. It is also suggested that while they can subsist on more base fuels, humans taste better, but the latter is only valid for the C'tan.

Meriwether
27-01-2011, 23:29
Unintelligent critters might kill off all their food. More intelligent critters manage some kind of husbandry, thus ensuring continued deliciousness.

Born Again
28-01-2011, 01:46
p16- 995.M41 The Gehenna Campaign.

"Commander Dante and the 3rd Companybattle againsted the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brillance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe.

The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battlewarn to quarantee victory over the other, and, atleast for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so reciently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one."


Is this the original, word for word text from the book? I've never read the BA codex but heard people complaining about this... but wow, this is nowhere NEAR as bad as people make out. Nowhere in that does it talk about the BA and Necrons high-fiving and hanging out together, or Dante and the Silent King holding strategy meetings together. Two forces, no matter who they are, are fighting when the Tyranids turn up. They suspend hostilities against each other to ensure their immediate survival. I'm sure they weren't fighting shoulder to shoulder against the 'nids, just both fighting the same enemy at the same time. After the Tyranids were defeated, the Necrons left for whatever reason: this is just part of the mystery of their race, or as said, maybe their forces were too depleted. The BA weren't their "BFFs", but it's in character of an honourable Chapter like the BA's to not turn their guns on someone who helped them fend off the Tyranids. I'm sure next time they encounter each other they'll get right back to fighting.

TheMav80
28-01-2011, 01:51
Honour? Those are dirty xenos scum that need to be purged from the galaxy!

What kinda of sissy Astartes do they grow on Baal? You won't see the Black Templars, mighty Sons of Dorn, taking part in any of that nonsense! :cool:

Born Again
28-01-2011, 02:24
Honour? Those are dirty xenos scum that need to be purged from the galaxy!

What kinda of sissy Astartes do they grow on Baal? You won't see the Black Templars, mighty Sons of Dorn, taking part in any of that nonsense! :cool:

You might if Ward writes their next book ;)

What I meant was, if they were standing their blazing away at the Tyranids and, as soon as the last 'nid fell they turned their guns on the Necrons without a seconds pause, that'd be a dirty trick in any ones book. Granted they are foul Xenos that need purging, but at the same time the BA also have a bit of a "Renaissance Man" air about them that is at odds with such ungentlemanly behaviour. In any case I'm sure they would have at least taken the time to regroup and plan a new attack and not just barreled straight in to the Necrons (Death Company aside).

Retribution
28-01-2011, 03:15
Dirty trick? We're talking about mindless automatons...who also happen to be one of the deadliest threats in the galaxy; who cares if it's a dirty trick?

Vaktathi
28-01-2011, 04:15
Exactly, especially psycho-indoctrinated, super soldiers known as the Angels of Death, who know no fear and whose sacred, holy duty, the sole purpose of their existence, it is to destroy the enemies of Mankind, enemies who will almost certainly return to wage war against the Imperium.

Hellebore
28-01-2011, 05:19
It's quite hypocritical for the Blood Angels to support the 'sacrifice a billion innocents to kill a heretic' Imperium but not kill a hostile force due to notions of 'honour'.

It's ok for the populace of the Imperium to suffer for the good of the Imperium, but those poor necrons just don't deserve being shot after fighting a common foe. That's just not cricket. :rolleyes:

Perhaps next time the Blood Angels should show such 'noble' mercy to their own species first.

EDIT: In fact what the Blood Angels did is pretty much a double slap in the face to the Imperial Citizenry. One, they hypocritically support the protection of aliens during a war with them and two, as a result of that oh so hounourable position they have guaranteed the deaths of countless billions of Imperial citizens when the necrons innevitably return to continue their harvesting.

Calgar and the Tau parting ways is one thing, the tau can be reasoned with and aren't omnicidal, but letting an eternally hostile force leave after fighting them is a ridiculous way to conduct a war and at odds with Imperial doctrine. I mean, they could have written it the other way around where the Swarmlord and his posse of nids team up against the invading necrons and the blood angels let them go afterwards. It's just as ridiculous.

Hellebore

Born Again
28-01-2011, 06:13
OK, everyone will have their own opinions on it. Maybe it is wrong, maybe they should have just yelled "RAAAAAAAGH!" and killed every Necron within sight as soon the Tyranids were dead. The point I was making is, I have often seen this incident made out to be the BA and Necrons having a back slapping good time, hanging out and enjoying a few drinks with each other in some sort of planned, organized alliance, which seems to be far from the truth. Makes me wonder how many other so called Ward Atrocities are nothing more than Internet hype.

Lord-Caerolion
28-01-2011, 06:27
Makes me wonder how many other so called Ward Atrocities are nothing more than Internet hype.

You do realise this is Warseer, right? Internet hyped Ward-bashing is all we do.

jacktheinedible
28-01-2011, 08:24
Ward does write some pretty rediculous stuff, but oddly enough the ones that get focused on here aren't really that bad, people just distort them to the point where Calgar is pimp smacking an avatar to death while drinking tea, outsmarting all the eldar ever, and giving a motivational speech to the emperor to get him out of his chair.

My biggest issue with Ward is more that the way he writes is often quite awkward in its attempts to be epic, and that somebody REALLY needs to proof read his stuff as a sanity check. (i.e the BA super chaplain that executes ALL death company in the galaxy that don't die in battle.....busy guy...)

On topic(ish), heres a challenge, what is the LEAST competant loyalist marine fluff anybody can think of?

AndrewGPaul
28-01-2011, 08:31
The Crimson Fists, probably. :) That or something from the Imperial Armour books.

Xandros
28-01-2011, 12:37
It's perfectly possible for Astorath to execute every single Death Company marine that doesn't die in battle. There's only a thousand marines in the blood angels chapter, most of which return to Baal every now and then. You may just have to lock up the marine for what may be an extended period.

I just thumbed through the Blood Angels codex, remembing it as being pretty well written. In truth I found the special characters were well written and highly interesting, but the rest of the book was pretty dull. Went through the recent Blood Angel historical highlights, and little of it was interesting at all. Compare to Imperial Guard where all the highlights were awesome, one more than the other. But the special characters are awesome. Tragic figures all, subtly painted. Maybe not the Sanguinor, didn't really appeal to me.

Another thing in the codex that did appeal to me was the Sanguinary Guard page which had its clearly mythical exploits written to be historical fact. We need more of that.

TheMav80
28-01-2011, 18:20
All I know is, after the Tau and Necrons team up to fight Tyranids the Tau didn't get to walk away afterwards. Their whole planet was harvested.

Everybody laughs at the silly Tau for welcoming the Necrons after the battle. I guess Dante is just more charming than the water Caste. :p

jacktheinedible
28-01-2011, 22:56
Xandros, you may have missed the part where Astorath kills death company from every blood angels succesor chapter, of which there are 7ish listed in the codex i believe, plus however many other ones there are....:D

Good call AndrewGPaul, i forgot about the forge world stuff, marines seem to like falling for obvious ambushes in a few of those. (one of the vraks books had a company of marines drop podding into the middle of a iron warrior trap, because the iron warriors were savvy enough to expect the marines to use their most common tactic...)

Xandros
29-01-2011, 07:13
I guess that makes Astorath the Santa Claus of death.

jacktheinedible
29-01-2011, 09:15
I guess that makes Astorath the Santa Claus of death.

now thats a conversion i'd like to see....