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Malorian
26-01-2011, 00:23
So my games with my ogres have been few and far between, and this is because no matter how excited I get to play them it always fades when I make an army list.

I'll start off with a few units and then ask myself "Why shouldn't I horde them?" If i have 3 units of 6 ogres then why wouldn't I turn them into a horde?

They get more attacks, are harder to get any points from, their impact hits are stronger, have great synergy with gut magic, and they still fit in a watchtower!

So after the hording I end up with just minimum number of units and my characters, and when I think of just smashing my opponent with two large hordes game after game I just loose interest and put them away.

Now I know there are those playing ogres out there, so please tell me: How do you fight the urge to horde?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-01-2011, 00:37
So my games with my ogres have been few and far between, and this is because no matter how excited I get to play them it always fades when I make an army list.

I'll start off with a few units and then ask myself "Why shouldn't I horde them?" If i have 3 units of 6 ogres then why wouldn't I turn them into a horde?

They get more attacks, are harder to get any points from, their impact hits are stronger, have great synergy with gut magic, and they still fit in a watchtower!

So after the hording I end up with just minimum number of units and my characters, and when I think of just smashing my opponent with two large hordes game after game I just loose interest and put them away.

Now I know there are those playing ogres out there, so please tell me: How do you fight the urge to horde?

I think as the point value for the army total scales upward the viability of using a ogre horde becomes more advantageous. At the lower point values (say 2000 pts. and below) having a horde unit will leave you vulnerable to multiple charges as you'll have less units to act as buffers to stop flanks & rear charges. Sure you can go with cheap gnoblar units to act as tarpits but with their animosity rule there is a 1 in 6 chance they fail to do something at a crucial moment which puts the horde unit at risk. Also horde units at lower point games are subject to more damage via magic/warmachine fire as there are less wounds to absorb them than same horde at 2500 to 3000 pts.

These are just my observations from my games against my friend's Ogre Army.

Goldenwolf
26-01-2011, 02:11
Mal,

Only thing I can think of is magic and warmachines. I saw a game in which 3 cannons blasted a larger Minotaur unit for 2 turns, basically killing 8 minos. I admit it seems fun, but if warmachines and magic smack em around then it's rough for the belly boyz

catbarf
26-01-2011, 02:58
Well, the only significant advantages you gain by having one big unit instead of several small ones is more efficient Gut Magic and fewer break tests if you lose in melee.

Let me ask you this: Why use a big unit? With fewer units, you are more flexible, and since 3 is enough for a rank and the second rank can still attack, you can arrange units 3x2 and still get a rank bonus and all your attacks.

And since you can maneuver much, much more efficiently, you're far less likely to get flank charged (which denies you many of your attacks).

I'm not advocating 3-Bull-unit MSU like what was common last edition, but moderately-sized units get the job done pretty well now, especially if you have enough magic to shut down the enemy's dispel attempts.

Lord Inquisitor
26-01-2011, 03:18
Well I've been running a smallish 9-strong unit of ironguts in place of a horde, throwing three characters at the front and running them 4 ranks deep. Mawseeker on the three characters and that's a mighty hammer unit. Not quite MSU (it's still a deathstar) but not a horde. Yep, I've been finding the small unit count ogre army really is the only one that does well. A few ancillary units are good, I like 6 strong units as flankers and 2 strong leadbelchers as redirectors but yeah, deathstar or horde up for the most part.

Vsurma
26-01-2011, 06:27
I run 3 rhinox riders (cost 500+ points) so hordes are out of the question at the 2400pts range.

Fairly simple.

Haravikk
26-01-2011, 10:24
I'm not an Ogre player, but I think for any army without the option of a 6 point per model or cheaper horde (or 12 points each for Monstrous Infantry) then you don't really want hordes in less than 2,000 points. Up to 3,000 points though a single horde can be very effective with plenty of small units to protect it, and higher might be worth fielding another horde. I wouldn't start bunging loads of hordes in though, as they just become easier and easier targets for blast-templates and per-model spells.

That said, for Monstrous Infantry units blast templates aren't as big a deal as you have one quarter of the targets of a 20mm infantry unit, for the same area, and only suffer one hit per model, which Ogres can easily absorb with tiny losses. It's a tough one!

Memnos
26-01-2011, 10:32
On 2500 points, I think you can have a very solid Ogre army.

12 Ogres - 3*4 - 420 points. Or you can do 6*2.

18 attacks/36 attacks. All at strength 4, Armour Piercing. 3 S 7 Impact hits. Great for Gut Magic. Cheap.

I never considered running naked Ogres in units of 12 before. Good on the person suggesting that. You can have 3 units of those for major breaker units, each with a character, and still have plenty of points left over for other support.

Wesser
26-01-2011, 11:38
Im pretty sure I could deter you from horde.

As an Empire player deathstar units never realise their potential against me.

They tend to get fend expendable detachments and are eventually outmaneuvered and charged in the flank. Just did this yesterday against a unit of 30 Phoenix guards, who got the chop from a unit of 20 spearmen.

Also Horde units of ogres makes blessed targets for Cannons and Helstorm rocket batteries. Maybe you could have 1 horde unit in a 3000 point battle, but more than that and your opponent will probably run circles around such an expensive unit.

Ney
26-01-2011, 11:57
In 7th I always wanted to field larger unit of ogres, and often did. In 8th these units are blessedly better, so I run larger units, and I even horde once in a while when a I feel like it. But hordes takes up a ton of space, and definitly have weaknesses from a playing point of view, so I don't see this urge to horde everything.

I frequently run 7 IronGuts + 2 chars, getting that SM in the second rank :P Then some units of 9, 12 or 18 naked bulls depending on my mood, flavour with scrappies, gorgers and giants and have fun!

MSU as it ws played in 7th is dead to me (and thank god for that), but smaller units of 6-9 bulls is still very viable imho.

overlordofnobodies
26-01-2011, 12:39
One I dont even have the bulls to make a horde and then make any thing else. Two I have never like put all my eggs in one basket as they say. I like 9 bull units the most.

theorox
26-01-2011, 15:14
Do hordes if you can support them properly. :)

Theo

Malorian
26-01-2011, 16:12
Do hordes if you can support them properly. :)

Theo

If someone really wants to flank my unit of 24 bulls they are free to do so.

The characters would simply move over and beat the unit anyway, and even if you manage to win through CR I give my tyrant the crown of command.


I think people underestimate the damage a horde of ogres can do, and any gut magic cast on them just makes them that much better (54 str 4 attacks -> 54 str 5 attacks is a BIG difference).

Prince Sairion
26-01-2011, 16:37
Having played a whole one game with ogres and indeed using a horde (and losing) I'm obviously not the most informed I could be, but I have this to say on the matter:

The horde I used trampled everything that got in its way. But that only ended up being two units. The rest of the time it stumbled around in it's 'I'm too big for this' manner and got held up by every speedbump possible.

In a very large game I'd go back to an ogre horde because it was nastiness personified, in normal games though and against a witty opponent, two units are better than one.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 16:39
Also a note that two speed bumps is typically more than 100 points which means a win for the ogres.

minionboy
26-01-2011, 16:42
There needs to be an option for:

"I don't, because it's not necessarily the best choice."

I've played several games hording up my ogres and nearly in every game, it's proven to be a major disadvantage (costing me my first defeat in 8e).

Basically the problem is that it further amplifies the Ogres big weakness to flank attacks. When you're running 6x3, if you get hit on the flank, you will only get 9-12 attacks, and you have to overcome the enemies rank bonus, flank bonus, charge bonus and standard (+6), not to mention any attacks or characters they have of their own.

Now if you run 3 units of 6 like I do, you have plenty of redundancy and are much less vulnerable to flank attacks, since you can have ogres on all sides to protect you.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 16:48
There needs to be an option for:

"I don't, because it's not necessarily the best choice."

I've played several games hording up my ogres and nearly in every game, it's proven to be a major disadvantage (costing me my first defeat in 8e).

Basically the problem is that it further amplifies the Ogres big weakness to flank attacks. When you're running 6x3, if you get hit on the flank, you will only get 9-12 attacks, and you have to overcome the enemies rank bonus, flank bonus, charge bonus and standard (+6), not to mention any attacks or characters they have of their own.

Now if you run 3 units of 6 like I do, you have plenty of redundancy and are much less vulnerable to flank attacks, since you can have ogres on all sides to protect you.

You want the second choice. In this case MSU would apply since we're comparing it to units of 24 ;)


This is the 2K list I'm playing with:

Tyrant w/ crown of command
Slaughtermaster
BSB
24 bulls w/ banner, bellower
12 bulls w/ banner, bellower

(Still playing with items for characters)

Basically the deployment wound go: table edge, horde w/ slaughter master and BSB, other bull unit with tyrant.


So the horde sweeps in and crushes everything in their path and the other unit protects the flank until the horde actually makes the swing and both units roll up the flank.

In this way nothing can really threaten the flank of the horde and all I need to do is crush a couple of units and I win, whereas it's extremely hard to get points from me.

minionboy
26-01-2011, 17:00
You want the second choice. In this case MSU would apply since we're comparing it to units of 24 ;)

Typically MSU for ogres refers to units of 3, I wouldn't say that units of 6 are in that MSU category for an ogre unit.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 17:03
Typically MSU for ogres refers to units of 3, I wouldn't say that units of 6 are in that MSU category for an ogre unit.

I use army books as army trays for my ogre hordes :evilgrin:

Four units of 6 is MSU to one unit of 24 ;)

Clanrat
26-01-2011, 18:36
just a question about the above list malorian...dont you have to have 3 units minimum?

Malorian
26-01-2011, 18:41
Drat, guess I'll need to spend 40 points on gnoblars, or drop the tyrant for a bunch more stuff.

Necromancer2
26-01-2011, 19:27
You could still go 18,12 then 6. :)

Glen_Savet
26-01-2011, 19:48
How much terrain do you have on the board, and what methods do you use to select it? That'd be the worry for me, because that's very large footprint.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 20:03
How much terrain do you have on the board, and what methods do you use to select it? That'd be the worry for me, because that's very large footprint.

5-10 as per the book.

Terrain isn't actually that big of a worry here because I don't care of they are in woods and don't get steadfast since they get their CR through kills.

In fact terrain could help them more as it could be used to take steadfast away from your opponent.


Sure there are some marshes and rivers you'll want to avoid but otherwise terrain really isn't a big deal.

Ender Shadowkin
26-01-2011, 20:08
Well ill state the obvious..,,Dwellers (1/3 unit gone per casting?), purple sun, pit of shades, cannons, stone throws (d6 wounds per hit). All really bad news for your horde.

It's a bit of rock paper scissors, you'll do really well or have an abysmal loss. Depending on who your facing. Extreme wins or losses generally arnt that fun for either side.

And getting hit in the flank would really suck, you would loose a lot of supporting attacks. Even with two units, flank the outside one then the other.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 20:18
People who don't think this works should check out this battle I had: (both written and youtube here)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272367


In a 5000 point game (so my opponent had a alot he could throw at them) I had two hordes basically walk through his army.

Oddly enough it was here we first learned there was an actually upper limit to the number of ironguts in a unit.


Yes super magic can be a problem, but then again a rune banner and a unit of gnoblars later and that dwellers is only killing gnoblars.


From my experience there is no doubt that horde ogres is better tactically, that is why my question was: how do you fight the urge?

There is no doubt in my mind that had I played that game with eight units of 6 ogres rather than two units of 24 that I would have done much worse, but at the same time I can't deny that (other for it showing just how devestating MI hordes are) it was a pretty lame game.

So I was hoping to hear storys of how other ogre player have at least found MMU (multiple medium units) at least competitive.

Lord Inquisitor
26-01-2011, 20:20
Well ill state the obvious..,,Dwellers (1/3 unit gone per casting?), purple sun, pit of shades, cannons, stone throws (d6 wounds per hit). All really bad news for your horde.

It's a bit of rock paper scissors, you'll do really well or have an abysmal loss. Depending on who your facing. Extreme wins or losses generally arnt that fun for either side.

And getting hit in the flank would really suck, you would loose a lot of supporting attacks. Even with two units, flank the outside one then the other.

Against magic, ogres have one of the best antimagic defenses in the game in the form of the rune maw (one of the only truly decent items the ogres have!). Dwellers, pit of shades and debuffs? Going on that 40 point unit of gnoblars! The only major issue is the purple sun, stupid spell.

Flanking is an issue but you can always reform those hordes as necessary (4 wide, 5 ranks deep) and with make way you can ensure anyone that flanks you better bring a can of whoopass or they'll get pulverized. Even if you don't, you're stubborn so reform and obliterate flankers. Now if someone can hit both flanks simultaneously you're in trouble... But that's easier said than done!

minionboy
26-01-2011, 20:38
People who don't think this works should check out this battle I had: (both written and youtube here)

In a 5000 point game...

I'll keep that in mind for the next 5000 point game I play.

In smaller (read: most) games however, a horde is too vulnerable.

Ulke
26-01-2011, 21:34
Well, charge with an arch lector with Van horstmans and the popemobile, he wont leave that fight til the altar is dead and then your chars are dead and maybe have a 60 strong unit of halberdiers in your flank(s).

Ender Shadowkin
26-01-2011, 21:53
I'll keep that in mind for the next 5000 point game I play.

In smaller (read: most) games however, a horde is too vulnerable.

This, let's see a couple 2500 bat reps and we'll be convinced :-)

Pit of shades is also a template spell as is pendalum and those gnoblers won't be around long anyway.

It would tricky getting vps out if the unit, but also tricky to track tasty things down.

How do you think it would do in the various scenarios? Battle for the pass would keep you pretty far back, and dawn attack could hurt as well.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 22:19
@minionboy, a bigger fight made them MORE vulnerable. More units for them to deal with means more ways it can be countered, and yet they weren't able to pull it over because two hordes just takes up too much space!

@Ulke, challenge turned down, smash chariot with 27 regular attacks a turn, win, reform, beat halberdiers, win.

@Ender Shadowkin, you only need to track down 100 points to win, and I can't see any scenario they would be bad at as long as you keep one of your hordes at 20 or less.

fubukii
26-01-2011, 22:19
Horde ogres usually die to my dual Warped lightning cannons very quickly, but they can put out a big hurting if they make it unchecked to the enemy. With my daemons id just shoot them, use hexes or augments vs them. Flank then gg.

decker_cky
26-01-2011, 22:23
The runemaw is great. Unfortunately, you need other units within 6" to use it, meaning after your opponent kills those units, the horde gets rocked. That's why you don't build around a single block in 2500 pts.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 22:25
Great... so I made this thread to convince myself not to do it, and now I'm going to have to do it just to prove how powerful it is :rolleyes:



"Vampires suck in 8th!"

*Malorian crushes his foe with a horde of 40 WS7 grave huard with great weapons, banner of barrows, and backup by regen BSB*


"Orcs suck in 8th!"

*Malorian crushes his foe with a horde of 40 black orcs*


"Ogre hordes suck!"

...

I'm seeing a trend...


Edit:

I really can't believe it. Right from the beginning I've been telling people that horde is the way to go in 8th (see my thread on Bigger is Better) and yet no matter how much people fight it I just prove them wrong over and over.

The local bunker owner was stubbornly against it and fought me every time I brought it up... now he runs super hordes too...

The pure power these guys put out is insane and the VP denial is just wrong, and yet each time I try and spread the bad word I hear the same thing over and over: "Oh what about dwellers?" "Oh I'll totally flank you!" and yet they don't realize how rarely you get those spells, how hard it is to get them off, the fact you'll only have 1 or 2 chances to try that spell before I hit your lines, and the fact that it's a lot harder to set up a flank on a horde in the hands of an experienced player.

I'm almost tempted to go powergamer again just to crush everyone until they start listening to me...

/rant

Goldenwolf
26-01-2011, 22:59
LOL, Mal horde is the way to go, as long as you can spread the field. If you sucked up Dwellers twice from a Slann or Teclis, you would only fail 1/3rd, so 24 becomes 16, then 11.

I like to horde it up with the other armies, but can usually afford to lose a block or two to magic/shooting. Am wondering what would happen with a Deathstar and support block. Please try it against someone good, and tell us what happened, as I am interested now. I kind of thought that Ogres were Gnoblar centric in 8th, and would love to be proven wrong.

Malorian
26-01-2011, 23:12
I kind of thought that Ogres were Gnoblar centric in 8th, and would love to be proven wrong.

Gnoblar centric? :confused:

I can see taking units to bog down a side while your ogres swarm the other, or using them to take stead fast away from really big units, but I wouldn't ever see them as centric to the army now.

The good thing about ogres is that they kill so much that other units don't stay steadfast for long unless they are insanely large.

fubukii
26-01-2011, 23:18
Horde is great mal minus a few things.

My skaven use hordes, but they are great at killing hordes of monsters with dual WLC. Im just letting you know there are counters. 1 purple sun can kill your whole army instantly as well.

my daemons also run 3 hordes :P and im confident my horde of 50 daemons on the flank of your horde will win :)

Malorian
26-01-2011, 23:21
my daemons also run 3 hordes :P and im confident my horde of 50 daemons on the flank of your horde will win :)

So then what do I take from that? That I should start deamons? :confused:

;)


What would your 3 hordes of bloodletters have a bigger problem with? Eight units of 6 ogres, or two units of 24 ogres?

Unless you play like a fool I'm not going to flank you and so all I end up with is less attacks, less rank bonus, and more VPs are you beat the seperate units.

Goldenwolf
26-01-2011, 23:41
Mal,

Every army I have seen out here for the Ogres has 1-2 units of 60 Gnoblars in it, with Ogres definately, but all had at least 1 big unit of Gnobs. I did not see lot of Gnob hordes in 7th. From someone who loves gobbos I am somewhat shocked you aren't a gnoblar horde guy :)

narrativium
26-01-2011, 23:43
I tried an experiment recently. I've been tending to take units of 6 to about 8 Ogres (Bulls and Ironguts, usually the latter) plus characters, and very little else, for a while, and we realised that an Ogre horde at 1500 points was impossible. But a small 2K tourney came along and I swung to the extreme - a Bull horde, an Irongut horde, three characters and a Gorger to keep things legal.

My first game was against a hungover Dark Elf player. Both units charged a unit of about 30 Witch Elves (benefiting from a 4+ Ward save) and slaughtered it outright - at which point, they got in each other's way and while the Ironguts unit with the characters in could plough forward, finding a useful facing for the Bulls from that point was difficult. The Bulls unit took the brunt of the shooting and was reduced from 15 models down to 3; several of the characters fell to 1 wound, but I didn't lose any VPs.

The second game was against orcs; I can blame an amount on bad dice but going through several wide units of black orcs and savage orcs with lots of attacks at higher strength than the witch elves simply tore through my units. I lost, though not by much.

The third game was against a Lizardman player. Slann with extra dice to cast and the whole Lore of Life to play with, tore a rank from one horde in turn 1 and turned his Temple Guard up to T8 for two rounds of combat. It is somewhat humbling to see a unit of twelve ogres flee in the second round of combat, losing two banners (there was a BSB; he needed a 5 I think) and having the remainder run over in the pursuit.

I'm aware that army isn't typical, but it highlighted to me how easily the extreme horde army can be outmanouvred or outdeployed. I am intending to take an Irongut horde unit again in the near future (it's the banner allowance for Rune Maw as much as anything), at a larger game size, but this time I want two smaller units of Bulls (plus requisite gnoblar masochists) to support it.

Goldenwolf: I've been taking armies with no gnoblars at all for a while now. Then again I've been losing slightly more than I've been winning, of late...

fubukii
26-01-2011, 23:47
So then what do I take from that? That I should start deamons? :confused:

;)


What would your 3 hordes of bloodletters have a bigger problem with? Eight units of 6 ogres, or two units of 24 ogres?

Unless you play like a fool I'm not going to flank you and so all I end up with is less attacks, less rank bonus, and more VPs are you beat the seperate units.

scraplaunchers and lots of 6-8 man ogre units tends to do alot of damage, i have found. i got double charged by 2 8 man iron gut units and boy did that hurt... all because i fluffed my cahrge roll :(


dont underestimate the power of the scraplauncher!!!!!!!!!!!

Necromancer2
27-01-2011, 00:04
Mal- I'm looking forward to an new video soon!

Lord Inquisitor
27-01-2011, 00:36
dont underestimate the power of the scraplauncher!!!!!!!!!!!
Heh, my regular opponent has come to that conclusion. My scraplauncher now gets cannoned or magicked to death turn 1 every game now :cries:

minionboy
27-01-2011, 00:51
Great... so I made this thread to convince myself not to do it, and now I'm going to have to do it just to prove how powerful it is :rolleyes:

So you made a thread to convince yourself not to do it, then many other people who are well experienced say it isn't very good, and you resolve to do it so you can prove that you should do it? I'm confused at the purpose of this thread.

If you think it's almighty and you're the lone ogre who has discovered that everyone but you is doing it wrong, then that's awfully egotistical of you. If you do test it (think 10-20 games) and it alone is what causes you to win, then sure, you may be onto something.

The OK community at large (see what i did there) has tested this kind of list thoroughly, and while it is possible to win with it, it is definitely not the most reliable strategy.

To answer your question, "How Do Ogres Fight The Urge To Horde?" Most ogres resist doing it by doing it several times and overall not performing as well as their normal lists.

If you want to discuss in depth ogre strategy, I'd recommend you check out the ogre stronghold.

Malorian
27-01-2011, 01:21
Playing with it more this would roughly be the 2500 list I would use:

Tyrant w/ tenderiser, greatskull, mawseeker, heavy armor
Slaughtermaster w/ grut's sickle, wyrdstone necklace, dispel scroll
Bruiser BSB w/ great weapon, heavy armor, rune maw
24 bulls w/ banner, bellower
20 bulls w/ FC
3 bulls

Total: 2493 (so I can throw the 5 point 6+ ward against WM somewhere or something)

I'm going to try it out and see how it goes.


(Looks like this thread was a comlpete fail...)

Ender Shadowkin
27-01-2011, 02:58
Well with a list like that you wouldn't even need an opponent, all it's going to do is move forward. You could play test it yourself ;)

Malorian
27-01-2011, 03:30
Well with a list like that you wouldn't even need an opponent, all it's going to do is move forward. You could play test it yourself ;)

Please see the first post for the reason of this thread.


That's exactly my point! I know it's better but it's boring.

fubukii
27-01-2011, 03:41
it can beat enemies, as long as they dont have the following

Hexes that murder str ( 1 lost combat can cause you to run and lose)
augments that buff toughness ( see above
flank you ( being flanked by enemy units especially if they horded can hurt alot)
have cannons ( doesnt need a explanation)
purple sun/pit of shades

Seriously 3 empire cannons would cause a world of hurt :P

But in a head on fight i cant really think of much that can beat it assuming we forgo manuevering. you would get roughly 51 attacks atr str 4 and AP and 4 str 5. thats brutal. plus stomps. on the flank though you would get 12 attacks much less.

Ender Shadowkin
27-01-2011, 04:15
Please see the first post for the reason of this thread.


That's exactly my point! I know it's better but it's boring.

Not sure I agree with the better, but its boring enough either way, so why bother?

It seems a lot like the 1st turn win lists that were talked about the first few weeks. You win big or loose big either way it's not much fun to play or play against, I think that guys tournament report went about the way I thought it would.

Zand
27-01-2011, 05:28
Wouldn't something like Miasma ruin your 2.5k list? - D3 on most stats seems brutal on a unit that large. A list with a couple of casters using Lore of Shadows + artillery or whatever heavy hitters they can muster seems like it would give you more trouble than it would if you were using a more flexible force.

This is mostly theorymachine because I play Beastmen and artillery is some sort of dream... But even still I'd like to have a go against your 2500pt list using a more typical balanced tournament list (I think list tailoring to counter a specific kind of strat doesn't prove the strat is bad, rather that your tailoring skills are good :P).

Edit: Just to make it clear, from my experience in 8th I would agree with you that hordes are definitely very very powerful in 8th, I'm just not convinced that centering your armies around single super deathstars is the most effective way of playing.

Goodluck and have fun!

isanti13
27-01-2011, 05:32
Skaven would wreck that army. Empire and dwarfs would blow it apart. Daemons shouldn't have to much trouble with it. WoC and their Chosen Bus would most likely win out in the grind. Dark Elves with the cauldron and mindrazor would make a bloody mess of it.. etc.


That list kind of reminds me of the Nob Biker list in 40k... It will absolutely wreck some people, and in the other half of the games you will get destroyed fairly easily. It's a one trick pony army that would be good for a laugh, but if you played it enough, people would build it in their lists to counter it.

Djekar
27-01-2011, 06:02
Regardless of what the original intentions of this thread were, it now has me thinking of how to beat that army with the types of armies that I normally field - as if I were to meet it unsuspectingly on the field of battle. Thanks for the mental work-out!

Alathir
27-01-2011, 06:21
Great... so I made this thread to convince myself not to do it, and now I'm going to have to do it just to prove how powerful it is :rolleyes:


/rant

Really though, isn't that the actual reason you made this thread? :shifty:

Wesser
27-01-2011, 07:52
Dam Malorian, I'd like to play against you and that horde.

In a 2500 pts game my Empire army is likely to have six detachments, and since your list has no shooting you would have to charge them.

If I put 5 archers in front of your unit and the 15 flagellants to countercharge your flank...what will you do about that?

1. Sit in front my of the archers doing nothing?
2. Charge and get flank charged in the following turn?

Compared to the deathstars all people have expendable stuff to pull this off. Oh sure your slaughtermaster may be able to magic the archers to death, but then i got 5 extra units rdy to step up to replace the other expendables.

Deathstar units are useful, but they commonly struggle to make home their points, if nothing else then from the lack of worthwhile targets.

Alathir
27-01-2011, 09:12
Dam Malorian, I'd like to play against you and that horde.

In a 2500 pts game my Empire army is likely to have six detachments, and since your list has no shooting you would have to charge them.

If I put 5 archers in front of your unit and the 15 flagellants to countercharge your flank...what will you do about that?

1. Sit in front my of the archers doing nothing?
2. Charge and get flank charged in the following turn?

Compared to the deathstars all people have expendable stuff to pull this off. Oh sure your slaughtermaster may be able to magic the archers to death, but then i got 5 extra units rdy to step up to replace the other expendables.

Deathstar units are useful, but they commonly struggle to make home their points, if nothing else then from the lack of worthwhile targets.

The flagellants will get torn to pieces surely, though they may cause a few wounds.

Wesser
27-01-2011, 11:00
The flagellants will get torn to pieces surely, though they may cause a few wounds.

If i take my standard unit of 16 flagellants i 2 ranks of 8. If i martyr and get the average roll of 2ī, then I'll have 22 WS 2 STR 5 attacks, rerolling to hit and to wound and striking before him.

On average thats around 14 wounds resulting in 4-5 dead ogres.

He'll have 4 ogres striking back (no support attacks). Assuming bulls that around 8 wounds including stomps.

Yes yes, he may beef them with spells, but likewise I may debuff them (god bless shadow lore).

In this scenario the ogres will be well beaten and probably mown down. In the empire list, both knights and greatswords can do this job equally well.

I'll admit that iron guts will stand a better chance in the maths, but then again, Empire dont have the mightiest of combat units.

Bretonnia can use peasants to feed the deathstar with no risk, and if you replace those flaggelants with a unit of grail knights? That Deathstar will be gooooone

narrativium
27-01-2011, 11:08
Flagellants have a lot of S5 attacks to play with, and that hurts Ogres considerably. If they can stay, the Flagellants will be killed, but it's entirely about staying power - the Flagellants will leave a mark.

Malorian
27-01-2011, 12:20
Skaven would wreck that army. Empire and dwarfs would blow it apart. Daemons shouldn't have to much trouble with it. WoC and their Chosen Bus would most likely win out in the grind. Dark Elves with the cauldron and mindrazor would make a bloody mess of it.. etc.

And once again I ask you: Isn't the same true had it not been horde? These best builds for other armies will crush the 8 units of 6 just as they would the 2 units of 24, but the horde at elast stands a better chance.



Really though, isn't that the actual reason you made this thread? :shifty:

No, no it wasn't.

It seriously pissed me off that every time I made an ogre list it went to horde and looked boring to play, and so I really wanted to know how other ogre players fought the urge to do this.

Unfortunately I just got a bunch of people that wanted to argue over if hording up is better in the first place (aka people who think every army has purple sun and a handful of cannons).



Dam Malorian, I'd like to play against you and that horde.

In a 2500 pts game my Empire army is likely to have six detachments, and since your list has no shooting you would have to charge them.

If I put 5 archers in front of your unit and the 15 flagellants to countercharge your flank...what will you do about that?

1. Sit in front my of the archers doing nothing?
2. Charge and get flank charged in the following turn?

Compared to the deathstars all people have expendable stuff to pull this off. Oh sure your slaughtermaster may be able to magic the archers to death, but then i got 5 extra units rdy to step up to replace the other expendables.

Deathstar units are useful, but they commonly struggle to make home their points, if nothing else then from the lack of worthwhile targets.

You seem to be stuck in 7th ed thinking.

In 8th it works like this:

-Charge and kill archers (if you flee then redirect into flags)
-Combat reform to face flags

Wesser
27-01-2011, 12:29
-Charge and kill archers (if you flee then redirect into flags)
-Combat reform to face flags

Except that after you combat reform to face flags, you might also have say... 50 swordsmen or 10 knight led by a grand master threatening from other sides.

I'd easily be able to afford all of these units for the cost of your deathstar and given how little space your 3 units take up, Ill be able to surround your 'stars with at least 2 units of my own.

But I think both of us are derailing into a trail of maybe and perhaps now.

I can only say that I'd be a lot more scared by 4 units of 12, than 2 units of 24 ogres.

Putting all your eggs in one basket has always been all or nothing. But its just bad when armies like Skaven and Empire can deny you the "all"

Malorian
27-01-2011, 12:38
Except that after you combat reform to face flags, you might also have say... 50 swordsmen or 10 knight led by a grand master threatening from other sides.

I'd easily be able to afford all of these units for the cost of your deathstar and given how little space your 3 units take up, Ill be able to surround your 'stars with at least 2 units of my own.

But I think both of us are derailing into a trail of maybe and perhaps now.

I can only say that I'd be a lot more scared by 4 units of 12, than 2 units of 24 ogres.

Putting all your eggs in one basket has always been all or nothing. But its just bad when armies like Skaven and Empire can deny you the "all"

I think you underestimate how much room two army books worth of models take up, and how combined with a board edge it really doesn't give you much room to work with for flanking.


In 7th I would have agreed with you. All or nothing dethstar lists typically were stupid as they could be easily bogged down and when they beat the rest of your army you lost.

In 8th however we are seeing truely MASSIVE units such that there really isn't any 'rest of the army' to talk about. If you don't take on and completely wipe out these mega units you are getting 0 victory points.

Add to this the steadfast and combat reform of 8th and you really have a hard time of beating these super units even when you out maneuver them.

Lord Inquisitor
27-01-2011, 13:27
Seriously 3 empire cannons would cause a world of hurt :P

Meh, they're not fun but even a perfect bounce is only going to hit three models max, and each model must be wounded, not pass ironcurse icon save and be killed (3+ wounds) or the ball doesn't continue. That's only a 46% chance of killing the ogre in the front rank let alone any after that.

Gork or Possibly Mork
27-01-2011, 14:27
Lots of stone throwers and holding back until slightly later in the game can be a good deterrent against your hordes.

The idea of whittling down one of the hordes then going after it to destroy it later in the game via double flank charge ( if possible ) along with buff/debuff to hopefully break them. How many people are still fielding lots of knights again? :D Ironically knights seem to be greatly suited to this task with thier good mobility and survivablity.

Meanwhile you tarpit the other unit with cheap units for the rest of the game
or atleast long enough to destroy the other unit and get the heck out of dodge.

That's the main disadvantage of going MI horde. You only have two units so if they can avoid long enough to destroy one unit while tieing up the other with fodder then the fodder points thier giving up won't matter once they destroy the other unit for a massive chunk of points.

Another thing is with only a Slaughter master your only getting off 1 type of buff per turn. It will likely be crucial to make sure the that unit thier going after to destroy doesn't get some key buffs and holds out.

If you had another caster it would be more difficult to prevent.

The whole idea here is divide and conquer then get the hell out of dodge but against an experienced player such as yourself that's no easy task but it's what I'd try to do atleast.

They would also have to be careful to make sure your Crown Tyrant doesn't suddenly switch units.

Datz da plan. There's some holes in this but would this help you fight the urge a little?

Yeah maybe not but something like this is far more reliable than going MI horde themselves ( if they even can ) or counting on a uber spell of doom. Shooting won't do enough alone to these massive units but a synergy of shooting/magic and flanking to take out one of them while avoiding the other might.

CaptainCo
27-01-2011, 14:31
Actually, I donīt fight the urge...


Granted, my Ogres havenīt seen that much tabletop time lately, but my main opponent frequently uses a horde of monstrous infantery (Trollking Horde). I tried it with various lists and different scenarios, but without the most uncommon amount of luck from my side I donīt seem to be getting points out of that unit.


So.. to horde, or not to horde... that is no question...;)

fubukii
27-01-2011, 17:06
Meh, they're not fun but even a perfect bounce is only going to hit three models max, and each model must be wounded, not pass ironcurse icon save and be killed (3+ wounds) or the ball doesn't continue. That's only a 46% chance of killing the ogre in the front rank let alone any after that.

i suppose that is true, but you could potentially lose a couple of ogres per shot with a little luck. WLC on the other hand doesnt die out if and explodesi nto a small template. Dam op skaven weapons.

decker_cky
27-01-2011, 17:41
Malorian, I think you're missing the biggest strength of ogres: Make way abuse.

6-8 ogres with 2 characters (mostly T6 characters) and full command. You make way into combat and enemies have to allocate on the champion, or one of the two characters who are both well protected. You can afford two of those (one irongut unit with rune maw, one bulls with the miscast on 1, 2 or 6 item), an extra unit of minimal bulls and two huge units of gnoblars (probably with a scraplauncher) in 2500 pts. This gives you two quasi-deathstars rather than just the one, and each is harder to damage.

With the big unit, you get lots of attacks, but a single mindrazored unit could easily tear the unit apart, and even without that, you'll have lots of weak T4 wounds that can be killed rather than forcing allocation. Add in how much you'll struggle against units with +2 toughness from lore of life, multiple wildforms from lore of beasts, WS10 I10 from lore of light, etc.. and you have a lot of things that could be trouble for the unit. One flubbed round and that's game.

isanti13
27-01-2011, 18:18
And once again I ask you: Isn't the same true had it not been horde? These best builds for other armies will crush the 8 units of 6 just as they would the 2 units of 24, but the horde at elast stands a better chance.





I think a lot of units of 6 ogres would be a much tougher list for my skaven instead of an army with only two massive units, I will just throw slaves infront of them to tie them up and you won't be able to stop me. If you had a lot of units of ogres, I couldn't stop all your units with slaves so you could easily get around my flanks and get all my throw away units and then help grind down my blocks.

Ulke
27-01-2011, 18:29
Well malorian, I say which char you deny with but to bad it wasnt WoC :P
How about Greatswords for the same amount of points as your horde unit, combined with some life/shadow/beasts magic. With a priest for hatred.

decker_cky
27-01-2011, 18:38
I think a lot of units of 6 ogres would be a much tougher list for my skaven instead of an army with only two massive units, I will just throw slaves infront of them to tie them up and you won't be able to stop me. If you had a lot of units of ogres, I couldn't stop all your units with slaves so you could easily get around my flanks and get all my throw away units and then help grind down my blocks.

Ignoring characters, those slaves (assuming 5 wide) would have 36 attacks incoming causing an average of 18-19 wounds per turn (22 if charging). Characters add an extra 2-3 on that, so the unit deals with those slaves surprisingly well.

What deals with those ogres better is 23 point units giant rats or 15 point engineers, which force the unit to either spin it's flank (or even rear) or only move 1" forward per turn.

The_Bureaucrat
27-01-2011, 20:41
Reasons why I don't (well not always) go horde.
-All the characters have to be in the front ( I can't move a butcher/SM BSB in back because there isn't enought room)
-Purple sun
-I'd rather give the BSB protection than runemaw since Ironguts can upgrade to runemaw anyway(character assassins and such can really change things)
-I'd also rather give my BSB crown of command or a magic weapon to deal with etherals.
-Giants, particularly ASF giants (yell and bawl means those 54 str 4 attacks = 0 str 4 attacks, and thump with club is particuarly bad as well)
- Like you said, it's boring

The list you posted although very good in certain circumstances has a lot of vunerability with the BSB, if your oppenent can take it out (which considering its in the first rank and only has heavy armor) than it removes both your panic/pyschology/break test protection as well as all your magic protection.
Wherein if you have 12 Iron guts you can stash the BSB in the 2nd rank and you'd have to kill all 12 iron guts (or make them flee to remove the magic protection) and kill the BSB which would have better protection.

Lord Inquisitor
27-01-2011, 22:27
There's no reason you can't do the 3-wide irongut unit to play the make way game with and a horde.

The way I've been playing, a single horde of bulls costs "only" 680 with full command. Sure that's a quarter of your points in 2500 but you still have best part of 2k points to buy some smaller units and load up on characters. The horde doesn't need nor shouldn't have many characters (maybe a butcher to keep the buffs coming) just keep it within 12" of the general/bsb. That way the big scary horde unit probably will get killed but it should allow the rest of the army relatively unscathed. If not ignored, it will wreck house.

I think that at least one horde is necessary, I tried multiple units of 6-8 and against armies like warriors they get trashed no matter what - they just can't take on warriors in a fair fight.

isanti13
28-01-2011, 04:32
Ignoring characters, those slaves (assuming 5 wide) would have 36 attacks incoming causing an average of 18-19 wounds per turn (22 if charging). Characters add an extra 2-3 on that, so the unit deals with those slaves surprisingly well.

What deals with those ogres better is 23 point units giant rats or 15 point engineers, which force the unit to either spin it's flank (or even rear) or only move 1" forward per turn.

Oh yea, they will munch through them. It will take them a few turns though, and once they get through that slave block, there will be another slave block waiting to go into the meat grinder. The Ogres would get my slaves by the end of the game, but I would easily have enough time to take one of the blocks out and should easily win. If you had more units, you could get stuck into my crap and also go after the easy points I have. Not really gonna happen if you are just runnin 3 units though.

Djekar
28-01-2011, 06:13
The way I've been playing, a single horde of bulls costs "only" 680 with full command. Sure that's a quarter of your points in 2500 but you still have best part of 2k points to buy some smaller units and load up on characters. The horde doesn't need nor shouldn't have many characters (maybe a butcher to keep the buffs coming) just keep it within 12" of the general/bsb. That way the big scary horde unit probably will get killed but it should allow the rest of the army relatively unscathed. If not ignored, it will wreck house.

This seems like the best way to go for me, but then I've only seen Ogres run a handful of times in 8th.

Vaz
28-01-2011, 12:00
Great... so I made this thread to convince myself not to do it, and now I'm going to have to do it just to prove how powerful it is :rolleyes:



"Vampires suck in 8th!"

*Malorian crushes his foe with a horde of 40 WS7 grave huard with great weapons, banner of barrows, and backup by regen BSB*


"Orcs suck in 8th!"

*Malorian crushes his foe with a horde of 40 black orcs*


"Ogre hordes suck!"

...

I'm seeing a trend...


Edit:

I really can't believe it. Right from the beginning I've been telling people that horde is the way to go in 8th (see my thread on Bigger is Better) and yet no matter how much people fight it I just prove them wrong over and over.

The local bunker owner was stubbornly against it and fought me every time I brought it up... now he runs super hordes too...

The pure power these guys put out is insane and the VP denial is just wrong, and yet each time I try and spread the bad word I hear the same thing over and over: "Oh what about dwellers?" "Oh I'll totally flank you!" and yet they don't realize how rarely you get those spells, how hard it is to get them off, the fact you'll only have 1 or 2 chances to try that spell before I hit your lines, and the fact that it's a lot harder to set up a flank on a horde in the hands of an experienced player.

I'm almost tempted to go powergamer again just to crush everyone until they start listening to me...

/rant

A bit naive to think that people would need to start playing the actual game to prove how powerful infantry close combat would be with Step Up Supporting Attacks, BSB, new psychology rules and increased charge range. Only nerf combat took was the loss of charging pseudo ASF, and for faster units no longer benefitting from cutting down the front rank).

Incidentally, you want some fun for those Grave Guard - give the Helm of Commandment Lord Fencers Blades.

8th edition was a poor cop out for a new edition, made to create sales. Compare that to 6th - and I know I'm not looking through Rose-tinted specs with them.

Ender Shadowkin
28-01-2011, 14:40
8th edition was a poor cop out for a new edition, made to create sales. Compare that to 6th - and I know I'm not looking through Rose-tinted specs with them.

geez, there have been plenty of whiney 8th edition threads, thankfully the noise has died down greatly why spew more bitterness here?

Ive been playing since 3rd edition, 8th is better than 6th. There have been numerous polls indicatiing a large majority of forum users agree. Your free to disagree or play older editions, but its time for people to move on and stop the pointless whinging.

If Malorian wants to discuss hordes, let him. As most editions go through there paces tactics get trendy and some go out of style as army books role out. Forums are for people who enjoy discusing things like that.

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-01-2011, 15:05
There's no reason you can't do the 3-wide irongut unit to play the make way game with and a horde.

The way I've been playing, a single horde of bulls costs "only" 680 with full command. Sure that's a quarter of your points in 2500 but you still have best part of 2k points to buy some smaller units and load up on characters. The horde doesn't need nor shouldn't have many characters (maybe a butcher to keep the buffs coming) just keep it within 12" of the general/bsb. That way the big scary horde unit probably will get killed but it should allow the rest of the army relatively unscathed. If not ignored, it will wreck house.

I think that at least one horde is necessary, I tried multiple units of 6-8 and against armies like warriors they get trashed no matter what - they just can't take on warriors in a fair fight.

I've been running something very similar to that. 3 wide smallish 6-9 Irongut unit with Tyrant, SM and BSB. a Bull horde ( with butcher if i can find the points ) gnoblars, scrappie and sometimes a slave giant.

Goldenwolf
02-02-2011, 23:36
Mal,

Did you run the 2500 point ogre horde army? I am wondering how it went.

Malorian
03-02-2011, 00:23
Mal,

Did you run the 2500 point ogre horde army? I am wondering how it went.

Funny you should ask, I posted the battle report today :p

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291799


(Or maybe you said that to remind me to post a link here...)

vinny t
03-02-2011, 00:32
I recently had the misfortune to play against an Ogres list with a large horde of Ironguts (16+charachters) and 3 smaller units of Bulls. Basically this list was nearly impossible to beat, as the smaller units stuck close to the big one and nothing I could do would be able to touch the big unit. It ended in a winning draw because I killed a Gorger, some gnoblars, and one of his smaller units but had to feed his horde 3 units of skinks and some salamanders.

My conclution after playing this game: Ogre hordes are really good. I was prevented from the win basically by him just taking that unit and with a slightly better deployment, he could have really smashed me apart.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-02-2011, 05:31
The Thread in General

No offense, but I don't think Mal cares about how each of us would go about defeating his list he provided for a friendly with a buddy. :D :p Anyone can go about defeating Mal's list with the right units, we all could create lists that could counter this and have 'tactics' that could do 'that' but thats not the point of this thread -or at least I don't believe it to be? :eyebrows:

Meta's Views (and some of mine) on Horde

Having a few units in the army that are horded up and then having an army around it is fine, but to the extent you are doing with the Ogres is others have mentioned is very 'one trick' ponied, and in an 'friendly' environment like with your buds can be cool and create a unique, massive challenge.

However, this being said, in a tournament or in competetive games against others with target priority and general ideas of their units or god forbid someone with tactical skill/mind (which very, very few; including myself) would make that look silly with just about any army.

Though as I take it you are a supporter of Hording things up, but apparntly to the extent of doing it with all your armies (seen the B.R's)? Why I ask? For more attacks and points denial (you make meniton on page two)? Others have presented regular circumstances in which Hordes are on the short-end of the stick everytime. For, example:

A bull unit charges and hits 6-7 wide S.M, you lose at least 1-2 Ogres worth of attacks due to the smaller bases etc. . . which already puts the attacks gained by the Horde back to neutral from a unit say 4 Wide, and now have less ranks to hold for steadfast as oppose to being 4 ranks wide having stronger impact hits and more ranks.

Regardless, in one of your posts you say (parapharsing):

[well wouldn't a normal Ogres list with 6 8-man units of bulls and charcters etc. . . would lose just as bad to Caldorun list with Witches, whats the point you will lose either way, the Horde just makes it harder to lose?]

Thats not true though imo. Now it is true that having larger units will make it harder for someone to kill it all, however (I'll one up the Caldorun list with a Teclis H.E list ;) for my example) against a list with Teclis and H.E Teclis can focus on just two units with all his magic, same goes for all the shooting elements in the H.E army. Meanwhile with a bunch of slightly smaller units it creates much more target priorty problems, guarnteeing you hitting their lines with something intacted etc. . .

What Makes up Warhammer

I hear (not only from you) that 8th ed. is a different game it has a bunch of new units etc. . . in reality its not. It still focuses on 4 key things: target priority, unit interdiction, bluffing/predictability and lastly (sometimes alot of) luck. How one goes about executing the aforementioned is largely what draws people into the game because it can be done in infinte ways with many different armies, some ways are just provide an easier route to achieve the above means, A COMPLETE HORDE ARMY is not one of the easier (personal and statiscal view) in doing such, though sometimes your not always looking for the easiest way to achieve the 'BIG FOUR'.

How You Could Perhaps Try to Solve Your Addiction :D :eek:

Now in that Ogres list if you were to drop one of the Hordes and use the points for some smaller units or different variety of tactical usage like Scrap Launchers, it would be even harder to beat. What does one do? Focus on the Horde? Take out the smaller units? How do you get to the Scarp Launchers? What if he has a Gorger? It makes you less predictble much harder to fight.

(Thats why I love your OnG lists the most, you have 2-3 Hordes, but have enough varibles in your list that your opponets really struggle on target priorty and makes you much more unpredictble and allows for flexablity shoud the situation arise.)

Drongol
04-02-2011, 12:00
Frankly, try hording up Ironguts. It's fun, it's ludicrously expensive, and it can go through pretty much an entire 2500 point army.

Greatskull and Rune Maw mean you're largely immune to non-Purple Sun spells, cannons do laughable damage to the unit, and when you hit, you hit hard. The only force I truly "fear" in 8th with this unit is horded up Khorne Marauders with Great Weapons due to mutually assured destruction.