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View Full Version : WHFB model size vs LotR model size, help!



Psygon
26-01-2011, 03:35
So, for the past few days, after seeing a Cathay plays-as Bretonnia army, I have been bouncing the idea 'round my head for an Araby army that plays using the Empire armybook. The Lord of the Rings range contains some great models that have an Arabian look, such as the Fallen Realms Warriors of Harad or Easterlings, and bitz-mashed with some empire pieces, would make a pretty good conversion, I think. The only thing that is keeping me away from this idea is that I have heard that, despite both games being on a 28mm scale, LotR models are smaller.

My questions are:
1. Is this true?

2. If so, how much smaller? Very noticeably smaller that bitz mash would make the models look strange?

3. What's everyone think of the idea?


Thanks all!

Lord Dan
26-01-2011, 03:44
My questions are:
1. Is this true? Yes.

2. If so, how much smaller? Very noticeably smaller that bitz mash would make the models look strange?
The difference is quite noticeable. It's not just a matter of the models being shorter, but the proportions are much more realistic (and therefore smaller) on the LOTR models (notably the heads and hands)

3. What's everyone think of the idea?
I think it's a great idea if you don't mix fantasy and LOTR kits. A "counts-as" warriors of harad/easterling army would be fantastic.

Rhamag
26-01-2011, 03:49
LoTR models are smaller than WH models, which are more like 30mm Heroic Scale. Their hands and weapons are also more realistically proportioned. Ironically, stood next to a Space Marine they look more in scale than a Cadian does. WH bitz would nearly always look too big on LoTR models. Think about a boy in his early teens holding weapons designed for full-grown soldiers.

Apart from that, I think it's a good idea, just needs a little thought when it comes to conversions. I saw a cool Cathay army based on the Chinese Terracotta Army using Easterlings with the Tomb Kings rules - animated statues effectively.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
26-01-2011, 05:27
I'll eat my beard the day that all people on earth have the same height and hand/head proportions!

Pacorko
26-01-2011, 05:46
Well, the thing isn't that people from different places have differrent proportions, Bingo. It's mostly a "sense of aesthetics" some people seem to have and the fact that if used in WHFB, an army made of LotR miniatures would look like a horde of teenagers (at best) fighting "grown--and quite disproportionate--men".

Bits-wise, both lines won't mix that well, but I've seen a few attempts that weren't too shabby.

lisaundead
26-01-2011, 09:35
Ive always avoided using LOTR models in my WHFB armies assuming that the proportions and sizes would not match and look out of place.

However...while looking for suitable alternative Wight King models for my VC army, I found that the LOTR Black Numanorian models make cool and appropriately sized WKs even when stood next to the correct models.

So...happy days and a little bit of variety in the VC army :)

mrtn
26-01-2011, 10:09
I've had a similar idea recently, but to use it as a peasant heavy Bretonnian army instead. One box of Warriors of Harad give you 12 spear armed men-at-arms (they just need shields), and 12 archers. Convert some command models, buy some arabian/muslim historical cavalry as knights, get some characters, and you've got yourself an army.

The models will be a bit smaller than your normal WH humans, but then only three of the fifteen armies have humans, if your Arabyans happen to be smaller than beastmen or orcs, who cares?

Haravikk
26-01-2011, 11:32
I think if you stuck to all LotR models then it wouldn't look bad at all, the difference is noticeable but not so extreme that you can't still just have fun. If you're a little bit creative with basing then you can offset some of the raw height difference, some of the pre-moulded scenic bases you can buy from various places may work nicely.

However, mixing pieces is likely out of the question. That said, proportions aren't even strictly consistent between Warhammer armies anyway, so you might find some pieces that work, but probably not from the Empire sets.

Warrior of Chaos
26-01-2011, 11:40
As I understand it LotR scale is 25mm and WH is 28mm Heroic.

I have some LotR Orcs and they are noticibly smaller than all my WoC models (including Marauders). I use the LotR models for DnD games.

RMacDeezy
26-01-2011, 12:24
while doing some training with a jordanian ranger battalion, i noticed that for the most part, they were smaller (height and weight-wise) than nearly all of our guys (americans, no fat jokes please :D). same holds true with my experiences with kuwaitis and iraqis, though the uzbeks i've met tend to be huge! perhaps its natural for arabians to be slightly smaller than their northern Empire and Brettonian brethren?

Rhamag
26-01-2011, 13:21
I've seen a Tallarn Imperial Guard army based on the Harad models with Cadian arms. It was a nice idea but the lasguns were massive and the poor guys' hands were bigger than their heads.

IcedCrow
26-01-2011, 13:23
My Empire army has LOTR swordsmen in it, as well as historical roman legionairres of the same scale as LOTR as spearmen. They look good to me.

Psygon
26-01-2011, 18:20
Thanks for all the responses.

The problem isn't really other armies being taller/out of proportion with the counts as army, but more about the kitz bash. The idea was to have some of the haradrim guys having guns, using the empire handgunner hands instead of the bows theyve got, and the greatswords equivalent to be easterlings with the empire great sword arms/weapon, as to represent some sort of WYSIWYG, but I am not sure if that'll work. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

On another note, does anyone know of any good historical Arab miniatures that could possibly work well with WHFB bitz? I saw a post over at the Round Table of Bretonnia that recommend Black Tree Design and Gripping Beast, has anyone had any experiences with either of these ranges?

rodmillard
26-01-2011, 22:06
Thanks for all the responses.

The problem isn't really other armies being taller/out of proportion with the counts as army, but more about the kitz bash. The idea was to have some of the haradrim guys having guns, using the empire handgunner hands instead of the bows theyve got, and the greatswords equivalent to be easterlings with the empire great sword arms/weapon, as to represent some sort of WYSIWYG, but I am not sure if that'll work. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

On another note, does anyone know of any good historical Arab miniatures that could possibly work well with WHFB bitz? I saw a post over at the Round Table of Bretonnia that recommend Black Tree Design and Gripping Beast, has anyone had any experiences with either of these ranges?

Gripping Beast, Artizan, and Perry Miniatures would be my recommendations for historical Arab miniatures, but being all metal ranges will set you back a bit. If you do go down this route, I recommend the Perry brothers Sudan range for empire, since it gives you riflemen and artillery crew without the hassle of converting them - and being sculpted by the Perrys should be a close match for LotR haradrim.

To be honest though, I would just kitbash between LotR and historical parts. My undead army usies a mix of LotR, Mantic, and Warlord Games miniatures, and they are all pretty much in scale so muskets and/or pistols from the Warlord "Pike and Shotte" range should work better than WFB parts.

Lord Dan
26-01-2011, 22:48
To be honest though, I would just kitbash between LotR and historical parts. My undead army usies a mix of LotR, Mantic, and Warlord Games miniatures, and they are all pretty much in scale so muskets and/or pistols from the Warlord "Pike and Shotte" range should work better than WFB parts.

I completely agree. As Perry Bro, LoTR, and Warlord games are all true 28mm, they will fit very nicely together.

Don Zeko
27-01-2011, 00:28
while doing some training with a jordanian ranger battalion, i noticed that for the most part, they were smaller (height and weight-wise) than nearly all of our guys (americans, no fat jokes please :D). same holds true with my experiences with kuwaitis and iraqis, though the uzbeks i've met tend to be huge! perhaps its natural for arabians to be slightly smaller than their northern Empire and Brettonian brethren?

Generally speaking, the average height and size of a population will vary depending upon how healthy and wealthy that population is. Kids that are well-fed and receive good medical care as they grow up will be taller than than kids that don't. So today, people from the United States, Western Europe, or other rich developed countries will be taller than people from poorer countries, like Jordan.

The trouble is that without better google-fu, I don't know how rich or well-fed the average French peasant, man-at-arms, or lord was in the Middle Ages relative to average Syrian peasant, soldier, or lord. The height difference was almost certainly smaller, but it may well have been totally non-existent or gone the other way. Who knows?

Pacorko
27-01-2011, 00:58
Don... Jordan is not a "poor country", neither is Kuwait nor Syria, nor pre-war Irak--especially not when compared to the quite troubled and very much in recession U.S. of A, Spain or Italy, to name a few...

Also your explanation just leaves out the particular phenotypes of the different subspecies/breeds/races/what have you of the varying world climates and how the organisms adapt to better resist their habitat's climate.

So it's not just about wealth and nutrition. It has a lot more factors that need to be considered.

Then, all you need is to do a search for "anthropometrics" and try to find comparative charts and that woudl give you what you need to know. But, yes, the height differences in the Middle Ages weren't as marked as they are today in most ethnic groups. They were there, but not so "spectacularly" so. Also, the compared diets for the fighting men did not vary much either: they need to be strong , so they got fed decently.

Don Zeko
27-01-2011, 02:55
Don... Jordan is not a "poor country", neither is Kuwait nor Syria, nor pre-war Irak--especially not when compared to the quite troubled and very much in recession U.S. of A, Spain or Italy, to name a few...

US GDP per capita in 2009: $46,700
Jordan GDP per capita in 2009: $5,100

Come on dude. I don't mean to pick on Jordan or anybody else. But it's just a fact that the United States and Western Europe are much richer on a per capita basis than the rest of the world.


Also your explanation just leaves out the particular phenotypes of the different subspecies/breeds/races/what have you of the varying world climates and how the organisms adapt to better resist their habitat's climate.

So it's not just about wealth and nutrition. It has a lot more factors that need to be considered.

Then, all you need is to do a search for "anthropometrics" and try to find comparative charts and that woudl give you what you need to know. But, yes, the height differences in the Middle Ages weren't as marked as they are today in most ethnic groups. They were there, but not so "spectacularly" so. Also, the compared diets for the fighting men did not vary much either: they need to be strong , so they got fed decently.

Well I left a whole lot of detail and complications out; this is a complex subject. But there's very little doubt that, over time, children growing up in wealthier conditions grow up taller and bigger than children that grow up in poverty.

SpikeyChaosDwarf
27-01-2011, 20:25
[/Quote]On another note, does anyone know of any good historical Arab miniatures that could possibly work well with WHFB bitz? I saw a post over at the Round Table of Bretonnia that recommend Black Tree Design and Gripping Beast, has anyone had any experiences with either of these ranges?[/QUOTE]

I have a ton of Black Tree Design and the scale is very appropriate. The only problem is the last order I made took 6 months to arrive and the order before that took 11 months and I had to send them copies of my credit card bill to show them they billed me for the order as they had no record of it.

That said, they have excellent dwarfs, skaven plague monks, stormvermin, and I even use a big part of their line for chaos marauders. Dirt cheap, even compared to plastic.

Psygon
28-01-2011, 02:20
On another note, does anyone know of any good historical Arab miniatures that could possibly work well with WHFB bitz? I saw a post over at the Round Table of Bretonnia that recommend Black Tree Design and Gripping Beast, has anyone had any experiences with either of these ranges?

I have a ton of Black Tree Design and the scale is very appropriate. The only problem is the last order I made took 6 months to arrive and the order before that took 11 months and I had to send them copies of my credit card bill to show them they billed me for the order as they had no record of it.



I am guessing this doesn't have anything to do with you living far away from their business center, which I believe is in Texas somewhere? This could be an issue if I use any of their miniatures...


Gripping Beast, Artizan, and Perry Miniatures would be my recommendations for historical Arab miniatures, but being all metal ranges will set you back a bit. If you do go down this route, I recommend the Perry brothers Sudan range for empire, since it gives you riflemen and artillery crew without the hassle of converting them - and being sculpted by the Perrys should be a close match for LotR haradrim.

To be honest though, I would just kitbash between LotR and historical parts. My undead army usies a mix of LotR, Mantic, and Warlord Games miniatures, and they are all pretty much in scale so muskets and/or pistols from the Warlord "Pike and Shotte" range should work better than WFB parts.

I appreciate the information, especially about the Sudanese Perry miniatures, as I probably would have never looked there. Although, I did not seen any artillery (but the musketeers are great!), unless a Krupp 6 is some sort of artillery piece (there wasn't a picture of it at the Warstore or the Perry Bros. website)?

Pacorko
28-01-2011, 04:17
US GDP per capita in 2009: $46,700
Jordan GDP per capita in 2009: $5,100

I could go on as why per capita statistics are quite a fallacy--or mildly slanted, as you prefer--as the majority of the money is concrentrated in the top 10% of the population in "rich" western countries, but enough of economic swordplay or obvious modern nutrition standards which have no real point in a discussion about the comparative sizes of two miniature ranges produced by GW.

@Psygon: Black Tree Desing may be cost effective for you if you are in the UK. But after many horror stories of long, almost unexplainable delays--which make it look like it's a one man operation trying to cope with the sheer volumen of orders thanks to the attractive pricing--, and the raising costs of shipping by the UK post and their taking a lot longer to get the boxes to another country--of this, I have first hand knowledge!:(--I have been discouraged to even try to place a small order.

I found a few of their old ancients blisters that one store brought in a long while ago and compared to WHFB, they are a bit smaller, and next to LotR they look a tad beefier but not that much taller in size. So, I'd say that with BTD's you can bolster units and do a bit of mixing without too much of a hassle.

rodmillard
28-01-2011, 12:40
I appreciate the information, especially about the Sudanese Perry miniatures, as I probably would have never looked there. Although, I did not seen any artillery (but the musketeers are great!), unless a Krupp 6 is some sort of artillery piece (there wasn't a picture of it at the Warstore or the Perry Bros. website)?

The Krupp 6 is a 6lb field gun - a bit low calibre compared to the empire Great Cannon (which is why I suggested using the crew). That said, since there is nothing else in the list it *could* represent, you should be fine using the gun itself.

EDIT: A lot of the newer perry miniatures don't have images on the website yet (I'm having this problem with their Scots of the Civil War range), but since it is just the two Perry Brothers doing the sculpting you can make a lot of assumptions based on the rest of the models - certainly to get a good enough impression of the range to decide whether or not to order on spec. Its also worth checking their WIP log to see if there are old photos of the greens floating around.