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catbarf
26-01-2011, 03:53
I have a unit of Ogres, which have 3 wounds apiece. They are hit by a VC character with the Frost Blade and take 4 wounds. Which of the following is correct:

1. 4 wounds allocated one at a time, instakilling an Ogre with each one, leading to 4 dead Ogres and a total of 12 wounds inflicted for CR purposes.

2. 4 wounds allocated as normal, killing one with 3 wounds and putting 1 wound on another, then instakilling the wounded Ogre, for a total of 6 wounds inflicted for CR purposes.

If #1, does my Tenderizer (D3 wounds for every wound inflicted) kill D3 rank and file troops for each wound it inflicts?

CaliforniaGamer
26-01-2011, 04:26
Frostblade hits and successfully wounds 4 times ergo 4 Ogres are dead. Pretty straightforward.

Awesome item in some rare situations like that...now combine this with Red Fury....12 more attacks

the tenderizer is nothing like the frostblade. totally different situation. it does d3 wounds to 1 model per successful wound done.

Surgency
26-01-2011, 06:21
Awesome item in some rare situations like that...now combine this with Red Fury....12 more attacks

Except it doesn't work that way...

Frostblade: if a model suffers 1 or more wounds...slain outright...

Red Fury: each unsaved wound...make an additional attack...

You're still only doing 4 wounds, and so only getting 4 more attacks. The extra wounds per ogre are just lost for the purposes of the Frostblade

Blkc57
26-01-2011, 06:34
Well that can't be right Surgency. I mean if you calculate the combat res from that are you only getting 4 for the wounds you did? I'm sure most people would read that as 12 wounds done for combat res, so if combat res registers 12 wounds why can't Red fury register 12 wounds done? I mean it works that way for killing blow as well in similar situation. A Killing blow'd Ogre (say from Heroic Killing Blow) would be 3 wounds done, Or say a bretonnian Lord with the lance that does killing blow and the virtue that gives him an extra attack with each wound done, I'm sure if he killing blowed a character or a unit of wraiths he would get mulitple wounds for each killing blow.

AMWOOD co
26-01-2011, 07:08
Frostblade: if a model suffers 1 or more wounds...slain outright...

Is this the actual wording for the Frostblade? If so, then only 2 Ogres should die as wound would be allocated first (3 wounds on 1 Ogre and 1 wound on the next) and then the effects of the weapon (kill off the Ogre that suffered one wound).

Blkc57
26-01-2011, 07:20
Wow, didn't catch that Amwood. Is that the exact wording of the Frost Blade? I guess if it includes the words "OR MORE WOUNDS" then the effect is triggered after the wounds are allocated, otherwise there would be no way to put MORE WOUNDS onto a model, and Amwood is correct it would only kill 2 Ogres.

Trikk
26-01-2011, 07:32
Q. In a situation where a Vampire automatically kills an enemy
model or causes multiple wounds, and he has the Red Fury power,
does he gain an additional attack for every Wound remaining on the
slain model's profile? (p83)
A. Yes.

If someone tried to pull this stupid stunt with Killing Blow or the Frostblade, I'd simply not play against them any more. It's written "one or more" simply for one on one situations.

Little Joe
26-01-2011, 07:45
Frostblade: "If a model lose one or more Wounds from the frostblade (after saves, etc.) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds."
So yes only two dead ogres. But still +6CR.

Red Fury: "For each unsaved wound the vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack..."
Since the vampire is only the cause of four wounds, the other two belonging to his sword, he gets four immediate attacks.
But the ogre player cannot allocate the wounds to the ogres already dead so CR should still go up a bit for this very expensive combo. Also remember that regeneration under 8th is now a "save" so can prevent the effects of the frostblade.

Edit: I just read the post from Trikk and though personally I think it is a stupid FAQ, you have to play by the rules.
The frostblade being the only item I can think of to pull this of with, it is still a weird combo. Kill a huge target and red fury is useless, kill a character in a challenge and red fury is useless but kill one of the oh so plenty multiwound models and you go beserk.

Trikk
26-01-2011, 07:48
Frostblade: "If a model lose one or more Wounds from the frostblade (after saves, etc.) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds."
So yes only two dead ogres. But still +6CR.

Red Fury: "For each unsaved wound the vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack..."
Since the vampire is only the cause of four wounds, the other two belonging to his sword, he gets four immediate attacks.
But the ogre player cannot allocate the wounds to the ogres already dead so CR should still go up a bit for this very expensive combo. Also remember that regeneration under 8th is now a "save" so can prevent the effects of the frostblade.

Now you're just blatantly disagreeing with GW on their own rulebooks.

Edit: and technically every wound belongs to a hand weapon, lance, great weapon, magic weapon, etc, so Red Fury in your interpretation would never have any effect on the game.

jthdotcom
26-01-2011, 09:48
So in conclusion, the frostblade just causes wounds in the same way that any other weapon would, but if you fail to save just one wound, you die. Does that about sum it up?

Also would this mean that, for example, out of the 4 wounds caused, 3 go onto one ogre, and one onto another, would the saves be rolled seperately for each ogre? so 3 saves, if one failed then one ogre dead, then one save, if failed the second ogre dead? Or roll four saves?

Trikk
26-01-2011, 10:48
So in conclusion, the frostblade just causes wounds in the same way that any other weapon would, but if you fail to save just one wound, you die. Does that about sum it up?

Also would this mean that, for example, out of the 4 wounds caused, 3 go onto one ogre, and one onto another, would the saves be rolled seperately for each ogre? so 3 saves, if one failed then one ogre dead, then one save, if failed the second ogre dead? Or roll four saves?

Using this logic, rank and file with more than one wound negate the following rules: Heroic Killing Blow, Multiple Wounds, Poisoned Attacks and possibly more.

For example, you would always have to make 3 unsaved wounds before Multiple Wounds (any) before being able to strike the next model. In effect, the only attack that Multiple Wounds will matter on is the very last attack.

The wording on Frostblade and Multiple Wounds is pretty much the same, in other words, Frostblade is really just Multiple Wounds (all of them).

I don't see why OK players are pushing so hard for this ridiculous interpretation of the rules as they have a lot of Multiple Wounds attacks themselves.

FestHest
26-01-2011, 11:27
As I read p.45 BRB:
Multiwound models and multiwound weapons: First you roll to hit, then to wound, then take any appropriate save(s) if any, then allocate wounds on models, then roll multiple wounds, then allocate again and remove casualties.

Eg. You hit a unit of ogres(3 wounds each) with a d6 multiwound weapon 4 times all of which wounds. Then you take 4 saves and in this example fails all. Now you multiply those 4 wounds into 4d6 wounds divide that with 3 and remove that many casualties.

The situation is similar to an instantkill weapon. After you take saves you allocate wounds, this time keep in mind you only need to allocate 1 wound to each model to kill it. So in the example above you will kill 4 ogres.

Memnos
26-01-2011, 11:42
As I read p.45 BRB:
Multiwound models and multiwound weapons: First you roll to hit, then to wound, then take any appropriate save(s) if any, then allocate wounds on models, then roll multiple wounds, then allocate again and remove casualties.

Eg. You hit a unit of ogres(3 wounds each) with a d6 multiwound weapon 4 times all of which wounds. Then you take 4 saves and in this example fails all. Now you multiply those 4 wounds into 4d6 wounds divide that with 3 and remove that many casualties.

The situation is similar to an instantkill weapon. After you take saves you allocate wounds, this time keep in mind you only need to allocate 1 wound to each model to kill it. So in the example above you will kill 4 ogres.
Incorrect.

You hit a unit of ogres (3 wounds each) with a d6 multiwound weapon 4 times, all of which wound.

Then, you take 4 saves and in this example fail them all.

Now, you roll 4d6.

You roll a 6, a 6, a 6 and a 6. You kill 4 Ogres. You don't kill 8

You always take whole models when you can, but you can never do more wounds than the model has.

If you rolled 1, 5, 1, 5, then you would kill 2 outright and one would have 1 wound left. You wouldn't kill 4.

FestHest
26-01-2011, 12:19
@Memnos you are correct.

I forgot a small portion of the rule p.45 BRB:"...,determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile)."

This means you roll 4d6 rolls of 4,5,6 counts as 3 because that is the number of wounds on the profile.

minionboy
26-01-2011, 16:33
If someone tried to pull this stupid stunt with Killing Blow or the Frostblade, I'd simply not play against them any more. It's written "one or more" simply for one on one situations.

So you wouldn't play against someone because there is a rule in their FAQ that you disagree with? Sounds like you wont have many people to play with before long.

CaliforniaGamer
26-01-2011, 17:02
Except it doesn't work that way...

Frostblade: if a model suffers 1 or more wounds...slain outright...

Red Fury: each unsaved wound...make an additional attack...

You're still only doing 4 wounds, and so only getting 4 more attacks. The extra wounds per ogre are just lost for the purposes of the Frostblade

Except that isnt the wording for Frostblade....

:eyebrows:

Frostblade hits and wounds 1st Ogre, Ogre is dead. Second hit allocated on next rank and file, 2nd Ogre dead. and so on.

Add up all the wounds each dead ogre had= # of additional red fury attacks (also benefitting from eternal hatred)

Frostblade goes through Ogres like crap through a goose. Ogres (and Minos...) cringe in absolutely fear of Frostblade, pissing themselves at night when thinking of it...
and most other armies simply dont care!

Player 1: I place my Vampire Lord on the table: Dread Knight on hellsteed (flying 10"), frostblade, red fury and infinite hatred.
Player 2: My Ogre Tyrant squashes 3 adjacent gnoblars, soils himself and passes out.

Blkc57
26-01-2011, 19:55
Gamer, what is the wording for Frost blade? cause I believe that is the important point, whether two ogres die or 4.

FestHest
26-01-2011, 20:16
Frostblade:
"If a model suffers one or more Wounds from the Frostblade (after saves, etc) they are slain outright and lose all remaining Wounds."

catbarf
27-01-2011, 00:01
Hmm. I suppose it could go either way. The inclusion of the phrase 'or more' does, I think, suggest the 2-Ogres-dead interpretation. Otherwise, a model would never be suffering more than one wound from it- you'd allocate one, the model is instakilled, and then you keep on allocating to other models (in the case of a unit) or lose the rest (in the case of a character).

Mid'ean
27-01-2011, 02:29
Hmm. I suppose it could go either way. The inclusion of the phrase 'or more' does, I think, suggest the 2-Ogres-dead interpretation. Otherwise, a model would never be suffering more than one wound from it- you'd allocate one, the model is instakilled, and then you keep on allocating to other models (in the case of a unit) or lose the rest (in the case of a character).

Sound like poor wording again from GW. And as you point out, a multi-wound model would never suffer more than one wound. As soon as a model takes a wound it is killed outright and then you aply the next wound to the next model till you run out of wounds.

FestHest
27-01-2011, 06:35
It could be interpreted as one or more wounds if there isn't any other model to allocate wounds onto.

But I agree its fuzzy wording...

a18no
27-01-2011, 11:54
Following the rule, you can allocate each attacks to a different model, and roll each dice one by one... After that, it's a matter of interpretation.

FestHest
27-01-2011, 12:28
Following the rule, you can allocate each attacks to a different model, and roll each dice one by one... After that, it's a matter of interpretation.

This sounds like a fair solution.

But, the trouble is the model behind Frostblade is rarely in b2b with more then two ogres(or similar large model). And afaik you can't allcate attacks to models you aren't in b2b with.

Trikk
27-01-2011, 14:48
So you wouldn't play against someone because there is a rule in their FAQ that you disagree with? Sounds like you wont have many people to play with before long.
What a completely hilarious and pathetic flaming attempt. Maybe you should read my post before assuming I disagree with the FAQ that I myself copied and pasted from the pdf.


Hmm. I suppose it could go either way. The inclusion of the phrase 'or more' does, I think, suggest the 2-Ogres-dead interpretation. Otherwise, a model would never be suffering more than one wound from it- you'd allocate one, the model is instakilled, and then you keep on allocating to other models (in the case of a unit) or lose the rest (in the case of a character).


Sound like poor wording again from GW. And as you point out, a multi-wound model would never suffer more than one wound. As soon as a model takes a wound it is killed outright and then you aply the next wound to the next model till you run out of wounds.

You can suffer more than one wound from the Frostblade in one on one situations. It's not at all fuzzy wording. They could have worded it like this:

"If a model suffers one Wound from the Frostblade (after saves, etc) they are slain outright and lose all remaining Wounds."

But then the same people who are willfully misinterpreting it now would misinterpret it to mean that if you suffer more than one wound, nothing happens. You can always misinterpret anything. Communication is a two-way exchange. If one party refuses then the other party cannot communicate.

The wording is not a problem at all. Adding "or more" doesn't completely remove all BRB rules for stepping up and such. The problem lies entirely with certain demographics of this hobby who will go to war over every sentence you can find.

I'd have to admit you can have pretty fun with it though. Let's look at that FAQ I quoted earlier in this thread and try to come up with something outrageous:

"Q. In a situation where a Vampire automatically kills an enemy model or causes multiple wounds, and he has the Red Fury power, does he gain an additional attack for every Wound remaining on the slain model's profile? (p83)
A. Yes."

This clearly states that Red Fury gives the Vampire possessing it one extra attack for each wound remaining on the slain model's profile if he causes multiple wounds. Konrad von Carstein with Frenzy attacks a Mountain Chimera which he hits and wounds 5 times, resulting in 10 wounds, slaying the Mountain Chimera. Clearly this should give him 50 additional attacks, right? Any other fun interpretations of this FAQ? :D

FestHest
27-01-2011, 16:18
I fail to see your logic. Unless you want to kill the Chimera 5 times?

"...one extra attack for each wound remaining" I wound say that the Chimera is dead after the first wound and thus has no more wounds so the max attack from red fury should be 9.

Im guessing a model with a d6 multiwound weapon and 10 attacks, hits and wounds with all 10 attacks could give it 60 wounds ?

I think not.

Trikk
27-01-2011, 17:10
Being slain he has 0 wounds.

So if you automatically kill an enemy you never get Red Fury attacks then.

I applaud you good sir, that is indeed an even more trollish interpretation of the FAQ than the one I provided.

You should post that on VampireCounts.net.

CaliforniaGamer
27-01-2011, 18:04
Also, you can't go above 10 Attacks

Yes you can per the new FAQ.

Vaz
27-01-2011, 18:58
So if you automatically kill an enemy you never get Red Fury attacks then.

I applaud you good sir, that is indeed an even more trollish interpretation of the FAQ than the one I provided.

You should post that on VampireCounts.net.

Didn't realise we were playing RAIhammer, my bad. Awesome that the entire post has been deleted, yet apart from one part it was relevant. GG mods. Well, philbrad2. nice work there matey, keep it up.

Edit - at above - thanks for clarification. Rest of the point stands. Namely, a slain model has no wounds.

theunwantedbeing
27-01-2011, 19:06
Yes you can per the new FAQ.

Yes...this guy will butcher an entire ogre hoard on his own, with ease.
It's really quite horrifying what vamps are still capable of.

A lot of FAQ answers never really took into account what became instantly abusable which is a shame really.

Sure, a vamp slaughtering a whole hoarde of ogres is cool the first time.
Second time...not fun for the ogre guy ever.
Third time...well your no fun if your going to keep using that combo against your mates ogres.

CaliforniaGamer
27-01-2011, 20:07
Yes...this guy will butcher an entire ogre hoard on his own, with ease.
It's really quite horrifying what vamps are still capable of.

A lot of FAQ answers never really took into account what became instantly abusable which is a shame really.

Sure, a vamp slaughtering a whole hoarde of ogres is cool the first time.
Second time...not fun for the ogre guy ever.
Third time...well your no fun if your going to keep using that combo against your mates ogres.

Frostblade is merely a tool Vampire players can waive around if their OK "mates" get out line.

Example...
Vampire Player: There is no beer, who's turn is it to buy the beer?
Ogre Player: I got it last time, its your turn.
Vampire: Okay, frostblade coming in (gamer makes geeky lightsabre sound)
Ogre: On my way to the liquor store...:(

Geep
27-01-2011, 23:55
I interpret the previous wounding of 4 frostblade attacks vs ogres scenario as:

1. 4 attacks hit, wound and go through ogre armour.
2. 1st wound allocated- ogre is dead (exactly as if the blade had 'multiple wounds- 3' as a rule)
3. 2nd wound allocated- another ogre is dead
etc.
Therefore, 4 ogres are dead. 12 wounds are lost in total, which affects both the Red Fury attacks and combat resolution (though I have the feeling combat resolution will be a moot point).
Pretty nasty...

As for the reason of the 'one or more wounds' in the item wording, this is to help prevent confusion and arguments (ironically, it seems). If the item just said 'any enemy that suffers a wound', I have no doubt people would argue that their dragon, which just took 2 wounds from the blade, doesn't die instantly (as 'a wound' is singular). Similarly, if the item just said 'enemy suffering wounds from this blade', people would argue that 'wounds' is multiple, so your fine if you take only 1 wound. I suggest those who want to whinge about bad game wording get some experience at writing games yourself- it's tricky to neatly and concisely close all loopholes.

AMWOOD co
28-01-2011, 02:41
The problem is that the Frostblade, worded as it is, doesn't kill models using its rules until the wounds finished being allocated.

In the case of a challenge, if you have challenged an enemy Lord (standard 3 wound Lord), and then inflict 2 wounds, the Frostblade will finish him off and you will have a total combat resolution of 3 (2 you inflicted plus the 1 extra from the Frostblade) rather than 6 (2 x 3 wounds on profile).

The Frostblade does not work as if every wound is a Heroic Killing Blow that allows saves or has Multiple Wounds equal to the enemy's W profile, but rather finishes off whatever the bearer hurt but did not kill. That would be the second Ogre of the case of 4 wounds inflicted on an Ogre unit.

Trikk
28-01-2011, 05:34
The problem is that the Frostblade, worded as it is, doesn't kill models using its rules until the wounds finished being allocated.

In the case of a challenge, if you have challenged an enemy Lord (standard 3 wound Lord), and then inflict 2 wounds, the Frostblade will finish him off and you will have a total combat resolution of 3 (2 you inflicted plus the 1 extra from the Frostblade) rather than 6 (2 x 3 wounds on profile).

The Frostblade does not work as if every wound is a Heroic Killing Blow that allows saves or has Multiple Wounds equal to the enemy's W profile, but rather finishes off whatever the bearer hurt but did not kill. That would be the second Ogre of the case of 4 wounds inflicted on an Ogre unit.

...because it says "or more"? :rolleyes:

In a challenge, you wound the enemy twice. The Frostblade kills and causes +1 Overkill. It's worded almost exactly like Multiple Wounds which suggests that it's simply Multiple Wounds (all).

Vaz
28-01-2011, 10:38
...because it says "or more"? :rolleyes:
No. Without "or more" it would mean that it would only instagib if it caused 1 wound on a model, and no more.


In a challenge, you wound the enemy twice. The Frostblade kills and causes +1 Overkill. It's worded almost exactly like Multiple Wounds which suggests that it's simply Multiple Wounds (all).
But it doesn't say it is, or that it is Multiple Wounds (all).

PeG
28-01-2011, 11:18
I agree that the writing seems to argue that wounds are allocated first and then the killing effect occurs. That would mean that 4 wounds would be distributed as 3 wounds to one ogre (dead) and one wound to another ogre (also dead) causing a total of 6 wounds for determining additional attacks.

Even if other scenarions can be argued based on the unclear writing this is certainly a possible interpretation that doesnt obviously break the rules and seems reasonable for both players involved. The vampire gets a good benefit from his weapon (probably 2 more dead ogres then without it) and the OK player gets to keep at least a part of his unit.

Trikk
28-01-2011, 12:04
No. Without "or more" it would mean that it would only instagib if it caused 1 wound on a model, and no more.


But it doesn't say it is, or that it is Multiple Wounds (all).

Neither does it say "skip immediately to the Remove Causalties step and ignore normal RnF wound allocation rules."

I didn't say it was Multiple Wounds, it just has nearly identical wording.

Multiple Wounds turn into more wounds once the wounds are unsaved, Frostblade turns into death once the wounds are unsaved. If an ogre can take 3 Frostblade attacks then he can take 3 Multiple Wound attacks, regardless of how many wounds are actually inflicted.

The Frostblade says nothing about altering close combat steps or disregarding other combat rules. Unsaved wounds simply automatically slay the victim.

pippin_nl
28-01-2011, 12:56
I thought you were allowed to roll for each to hit and to wound seperately, so you roll for a hit, roll to wound, if it succeeds and the ogre fails a save, the ogre dies. (red fury grants 3 extra attacks) Next attack.

Braugi
28-01-2011, 17:23
Except that isnt the wording for Frostblade....

:eyebrows:

Frostblade hits and wounds 1st Ogre, Ogre is dead. Second hit allocated on next rank and file, 2nd Ogre dead. and so on.

Add up all the wounds each dead ogre had= # of additional red fury attacks (also benefitting from eternal hatred)

Frostblade goes through Ogres like crap through a goose. Ogres (and Minos...) cringe in absolutely fear of Frostblade, pissing themselves at night when thinking of it...
and most other armies simply dont care!

Player 1: I place my Vampire Lord on the table: Dread Knight on hellsteed (flying 10"), frostblade, red fury and infinite hatred.
Player 2: My Ogre Tyrant squashes 3 adjacent gnoblars, soils himself and passes out.

The problem here is that you're ignoring the fact that a model can take more than wound from the Frostblade before the auto kill clause is invoked:

Frostblade: "If a model lose one or more Wounds from the frostblade (after saves, etc.) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds."

See, this makes it clear that if the attacks are allocated against the rank and file troops, you check to see if they hit, wound, and save as normal. THEN you allocate the wounds. After that, you check to see if models have lost "one or more" wounds, and any that have automatically die.

The only way you CAN inflict more than one wound with the Frostblade is if wounds are allocated in this way.

UPDATE: Even in a challenge, with the wording like this, the Frostblade could never do more than one wound. Maybe the failed armor save rolls are made at the same time, but the first wound would kill the enemy character before the next wound gets allocated.

CaliforniaGamer
28-01-2011, 17:32
The problem here is that you're ignoring the fact that a model can take more than wound from the Frostblade before the auto kill clause is invoked:


See, this makes it clear that if the attacks are allocated against the rank and file troops, you check to see if they hit, wound, and save as normal. THEN you allocate the wounds. After that, you check to see if models have lost "one or more" wounds, and any that have automatically die.



Hmm every is reading too much into "one or more wounds". Doesnt mean anything other than to prevent RAI people from saying their multiwound model suffered from 2 wounds thus is immune the Frostblade's effect....

There is no more basis for your imagined sequence of events than my FAR SIMPLER one: check to see if ogre is hit, then wounded. If wounded, ogre dies immediately, end of story. Resolve next hit and so on.

I would even say based on how the multiwound special rule is invoked there is far more support my simple sequence then yours, which has none in the current BRB.

I agree this is albiet marginally murky and would come down to either a player agreement or a judge ruling. My feeling is the judge will take the simpler solution and choose my intrepretation but who knows.

decker_cky
28-01-2011, 17:47
I thought you were allowed to roll for each to hit and to wound seperately, so you roll for a hit, roll to wound, if it succeeds and the ogre fails a save, the ogre dies. (red fury grants 3 extra attacks) Next attack.

All attacks at a given initiative step are simultaneous.

Lord Inquisitor
28-01-2011, 18:21
I'll add my couple of small denomination coins. For what it's worth I play both Vampires and OK.

"If a model suffers one or more Wounds from the Frostblade (after saves, etc) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds."

Several points, mostly trying to compare it with Killing Blow and Multiple Wounds.

Each Killing Blow in a challenge counts as the number of wounds on the profile. Indeed, according to the errata, if you got 3 killing blows against a model with 3 wounds originally but only 1 wound remaining when attacked, it would count for 9 points of combat resolution.

There's nothing I can really find about allocating multiple wounds. This is actually quite vague in the rulebook, despite there being an entire section devoted to it.

"If a unit of creatures with more than 1 wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all the wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit."

This is cool and all, but it assumes that each model is hit only once (i.e. by a cannon). So it doesn't resolve things

Multiple wound weapons can be presumed to inflict hits on "the unit". So if you have a multiple wound weapon (D6) and you hit an ogre unit and cause three wounds, presumably the protocol is you roll 3D6, reduce any rolls over 3 to 3 and take that many wounds off the unit. Problem is, this isn't explicit in the rules.

Frostblade - is it, as suggested, Multiple Wounds (all) or is it a seperate ability? Does it kick in only after wounds are allocated unlike multiple wounds?

Conclusion. The frostblade vs monstrous inf combo seems absurd - a vampire could easily wipe out 500 points of ogres in a single round. I think both sides have valid arguments, but for the sake of erring on the side of conservacy, I would have said that "one or more" means that you allocate first, then remove any wounded models. So a vampire that inflicts 4 wounds would kill 2 ogres, getting 6 extra attacks.

Edit:

Having thought about it a bit more, imagine said Vamp with frostblade and red fury fighting a dude on a dragon (6 wounds). He attacks and gets two unsaved wounds on the dragon. How many extra attacks would he get? I would have said he gets 6 attacks. The dragon suffered "one or more" wounds, so died outright and Frostblade inflicted the extra 4. Vamp gets 6 more attacks and for combat resolution, counts as having 6 points from the dragon (not 12 or 14).

On the other hand, if he had heroic killing blow (from a Nehekharan Sphynx) rather than a frostblade (but still with red fury), attacks the dragon and scores two killing blows, I would STILL say he's inflicted 6 wounds (the number of wounds on the profile) so 6 extra attacks but for combat resolution that would be 12. Right?

What would happen if a model with Heroic Killing Blow attacked a unit of ogres - 3 wounds for each successful killing blow, right? That would suggest that Frostblade operates like an automatic Heroic Killing Blow, wouldn't it?

This suggests that Frostblade works like Killing Blow. Therefore 4 wounds would be 4 dead ogres.

Vaz
28-01-2011, 18:48
Allocate Attacks, hit, wound, save, then kill ones still alive - so Red Fury

Against Ogres (3 wounds)
4 Attacks, 4 wounds, 4 not saved, 1 dead, 1 on two wounds, 2W Ogre Killed by Frostblade
Red Fury, A Further 4 Attacks (Because Slain monsters have no wounds remaining, but if you want to play RAI, 6 Attacks), killing up to a further 1 and reducing another to 2 wounds, killing it (or 6 wounds if you play RAI, resulting in another 2 dead, provided you cause 4-6 wounds) - so a 4 Attack Vampire Lord with Red Fury can kill a maximum of 4 standard 3 wound Monstrous Infantry.