PDA

View Full Version : Early Crimson Fists Fluff



Poseidal
27-01-2011, 15:01
Does anyone know any really early Crimson Fists fluff? I'm looking at before 2nd edition.

I know the parts from the main rulebook (Pedro Cantor, Battle at the Farm), but were they described in any way in any WD or other publication at the time?

AndrewGPaul
27-01-2011, 17:53
IIRC, that's pretty much it. Obviously come colour scheme examples for Rhinos, Medics, etc, but no other text, really.

I don't even recall when they became an offshoot of the Imperial Fists, rather than a totally separate entity.

Dangersaurus
28-01-2011, 00:29
IIRC, that's pretty much it. Obviously come colour scheme examples for Rhinos, Medics, etc, but no other text, really.

I don't even recall when they became an offshoot of the Imperial Fists, rather than a totally separate entity.

They were removed from the First Founding for the 2nd edition Codex Imperialis book. Somewhere around the publication of the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex they became a Second Founding chapter of the Imperial Fists.

Maybe I'm thinking of some fan history or a tossaway paragraph in a White Dwarf here, but I also recall somewhere they were sort of promoted back up, making them (along with the Black Templars and Stupid Drinkers) the first of the Second Founding... or a 1.5st Founding if you will.

FabricatorGeneralMike
28-01-2011, 02:02
They were removed from the First Founding for the 2nd edition Codex Imperialis book. Somewhere around the publication of the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex they became a Second Founding chapter of the Imperial Fists.

Maybe I'm thinking of some fan history or a tossaway paragraph in a White Dwarf here, but I also recall somewhere they were sort of promoted back up, making them (along with the Black Templars and Stupid Drinkers) the first of the Second Founding... or a 1.5st Founding if you will.

If I recall correctly that was the first Soul Drinker book. It discribes the Soul Drinkers as being the Orbital Assault specalist, the Black Templars being the most fanatical ones, the Vets remaining Imperial Fists while the new recrutes where made into the Crimson Fists.

Then again most information regarding the Soul Drinkers is non-existant after the deletion team on Terra go finished with that libary.

Poseidal
28-01-2011, 08:33
Do you know what mentioned them as 1st founding, or is it something I missed in the main RT rulebook?

I know Ultramarines were 3rd founding initially, was there a similar article for the Fists?

AndrewGPaul
28-01-2011, 09:29
I don't think it was ever mentioned, really. In the beginning, there were just Marine chapters. Nothing special about any of them, really.

By the time Epic came along, someone decided that twenty of these Chapters were the originals, and the Crimson Fists didn't make the cut, for whatever reason. The Realms of Chaos books mention the eight Traitor Legions, 1st edition Space Marine gave us seven loyalist Chapters, there were three unnamed, and at some point the Iron Hands and Alpha Legion turned up. Then, in second edition, it all got codified a bit better, the Raven Guard appeared and the whole business of Sucessor Chapters came about. At that point, someone thought "well, the Imperial Fists have thesame symbol as the Crimson Fists. Obviously the former is the parent Chapter of the latter", and the same sort of logic led to the Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers and Flesh Eaters becoming Blood Angels successors.

At no point were the Crimson Fists ever described as a "First Founding" Chapter - until the Realms of Chaos books came a long, it just wasn't worth noting.

The Ultramarines being a 3rd Founding Chapter was, IIRC, a throwaway line in an article that no-one thought worth including in either the Compilation or Compendium.

Poseidal
28-01-2011, 09:39
It was in their main description in the early RT WD articles. I wouldn't say it was a throwaway line, as it was in their introduction and background at the time.

They were still Chapter 13, but they had been given the number that was formerly of a traitor legion, 'without number and name with all honours erased'.

I was wondering if there is anything similar for the other chapters and how they've changed or been shaped? (more than maybe the Crimson Fists)

AndrewGPaul
28-01-2011, 10:00
Which White Dwarf was that? I ask because it was never reprinted.

Another change is obviously the Space Wolves. Other than their homeworld changeing to Fenris from Lucan (which was chosen purely for the dodgy pun), they were once described as being proud that they follow the Codex to the letter. :)

Poseidal
28-01-2011, 10:25
WD97 for Ultra Marines.

With the Space Wolves, the old Leman Russ seems like a very different person to the one alluded to these days, as far as I can tell. With quotes about IG Penal Legion (!?) tactics.

reds8n
28-01-2011, 13:23
IIRC in those days Russ was "merely" a normal human/guardsman who somehow wound up being chaptermaster of the Space Wolves.

There's a picture of him in the 1st edition rulebook complete with massive osmotic gill he had fitted after getting caught in ... an acid rain storm ?/similar somewhere or other.

I believe this is kind of how the Leman Russ battle tank came to be so called, in tribute to the heights he ascended to.

In other first edition oddities I'm fairlyc ertain that the Sould Drinkers are, originally, "merely" a veteran company of the (strictly codex) White Scars, as mentioned in the 1st book of the Astronomican, aka the Space Wolf buddha book ! ;)

AndrewGPaul
28-01-2011, 22:09
IIRC in those days Russ was "merely" a normal human/guardsman who somehow wound up being chaptermaster of the Space Wolves.

An Imperial Commander is hardly a "normal Guardsman". :)

No, by the time the Space Wolves were described as "[taking] great pride in following the Index Astartes almost to the letter" in the Space Marines Painting Guide (also in WD 117), Leman Russ was a proper Primarch (he had a miniature and everything - the only Primarch to do so) and their home world was Fenris. What a difference ten months makes. :)

For added fun, the same guide also implies the Space Wolves adhere more closely to the Index than the Ultramarines!

shadowhawk2008
30-01-2011, 14:46
That's funny :)

AlphariusOmegon20
30-01-2011, 14:54
and at some point the Iron Hands and Alpha Legion turned up.

I want to say AL first showed up in the 2E Codex. At least, that's the first time I remember seeing them.

Col. Tartleton
30-01-2011, 14:59
See if they were smart they'd have made Leman Russ despite being the leader of the Wolves a sort of spiritual founder of the Imperial Guard during the transition from Army to Guard. That would sort of tie in the fluff and explain why the hell they named the premier MBT after him in a legitimate sense. The wolves get on well with the Guard it would have worked. Guilleman compiled the Codex afterall. There are parts by several/most of the Primarchs. Maybe Russ is the top secret master of armored assaults...

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2011, 15:54
I want to say AL first showed up in the 2E Codex. At least, that's the first time I remember seeing them.

The Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are mentioned in Realm Of Chaos: Slaves To Darkness as Slaaneshi Chapters, while the Word Bearers, Night Lords and World Eaters are Khornate. Add the Black Legion, and the Death Guard and Thousand Sons from The Lost And The Damned and all nine traitor legions are present, in name at least, by 1990.

I think the Raven Guard were the only Chapter not named until 2nd edition.I'm not entirely sure about that. It is muddied somewhat, in that the three Chapters destroyed in the assault on Isstvan V weren't originally named. In any case, even the Chapters present at Isstvan III has changed, so it's not really worth trying to make everything consistent across editions.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-01-2011, 13:47
Actually there is one source that suggested the Crimson Fists were a 1st Founding Chapter:

Historical Background: Perhaps the most famous convoy actions of the Horus Heresy were carried out by the Land Raiders and Rhinos of No. 3 Company, Crimson Fists Chapter, during the defense of Gramercie in the Sangraal campaign. The population had been decimated by an orbital virus bomb to which only the Rebel forces had the antidote. After a heroic raid on a Rebel installation, the Crimson Fists convoy fought its way through the massing Rebel forces and delivered the antidote to the garrison of Gramercie in the nick of time. Brother-Captain Parzval, who commanded the action, went on to a highly distinguished career, finally to become Imperial Commander of the Crimson Fists.

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2011, 13:51
Ooh, good find. I think these days that you'd have to retcon that as being a sub-unit of the Imperial Fists. Whether that Chapter (or whatever the Crusade-era designation was) was called the Crimson Fists before the Second Founding, I don't know. :)

Poseidal
31-01-2011, 14:14
Ah, Space Marine. That's one I didn't think of. Good find!

badman3
17-12-2012, 04:07
Brother Paul. You do the Fists a disservice. The Mighty Alessio Cortez (or at least the inspiration for him) is depicted at the heart of a seemingly hopeless battle, his bmdnight blue power armor battle smashed and bloody on the front cover of the first ever 40K rulebook. The fists in battle were also the box front for Citadel's first multi part space marine box set. They are a second founding chapter and there are none more loyal to the emperor. It is to be a lucky lifeform to never feel the wrath of a Crimson Fist!