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The Anarchist
27-01-2011, 17:37
From reading Prospero Burns its pretty directly stated that the Space Wolves are the Emperors final sanction, his internal gaurd dog so to speak. they are unleashed aganst fellow astartes if they ever go too far, Russ seems to consider it his dark purpose, and the reason he was created, almost his unique position amongst his brothers.

my question however is why Russ? whilst I understand his loyalty is beyond question and such, so were most of the primarchs up until the time of the Heresy. so what makes Russ the bearer of this particular task?

when used as the ultimate deterence I can see some of the other Primarchs being equally good or better as the final sanction that would be unleashed aganst their brothers if the need arose.
Angron strikes me as one, known to be wild and brutal, a total desire to destroy and never negotiate. He wouldn't be subtle and it would be messy, but the World Eaters have all the requisets to fight brother astartes and take the fight to them. they wont be able to inspire fear in other astartes as they no one could, but they stand as a good example of the total destruction the Emperor could unleash on any primarch that goes too far.
Konrad Curze also would be a powerfull force as a deterence, whilst he cna't use the same fear tactics aganst astartes he does aganst others, he is a terror weapon and a scary prospect, so seemingly well suited as being the Emperors executioner?
alternaticly rather than use a terrible and fearsome tool as his excutioner, the Emperor has his most noble sons as an option; Sangunius. the Blood Angles posses the blood thirsty nature akin to the World Eaters yet with a noble character that is recognised even amongst the other astartes. Sanguinius as deterece and executioner wouldn't inspire fear in his brothers, but a person they know they cna talk to, submit to and be helped, without fear.

overall it strikes me a few Primarchs could ahve done the same job as Russ as the emperors Executioner, and maybe better. so why was Russ chosen, and what trait set him apart for this task. Also intrested to know what other Primarchs varrious people might think have been good for the task of Emperors internal deternce

Wyrmwood
27-01-2011, 20:30
I think that the problem with the Emperor ordering Angron and the World Eaters to destroy a brother legion, even perhaps one that Angron deemed to be dishonourable or cowardly; lacking in some way, is that it would probably be seen as an extension of the Emperor's tyranny. We know from After Desh'ea that Angron originally viewed the Emperor as one of the ruling high-handed nobles that brutalised him and propagated gladiatorial combat for sport, it was only after Kharn spoke to him of brotherhood amongst the Astartes, of the Primarchs; the deeds of the Warhounds that Angron accepted his role.

I'd imagine that Angron would see such a decree as the Emperor breaking up the bonds of loyalty, brotherhood and honour that was/is central to the Astartes and would probably refuse. This doesn't mean that Angron is an idiot, he just never respected or trusted the Emperor and his judgement - who is to say that he's entirely wrong? Still, I like to think of Angron siding with Horus to be for a greater, higher goal; not that of mere police enforcement etc.

As for the Night Haunter, too uncontrollable and volatile; his very visions of Astartes turning on one another were a deciding factor in driving him over the edge.

Casper Hawser
27-01-2011, 20:37
I think Angron would have struggled against some of the over legions he seems to just charge in all the time his legion takes huge casualties in Galaxy in flames while trying to destroy Saul Tarvitz and the rest.
I think it's Russ because he's willing to do anything without question.
I found it weird Russ wasn't used in the first heretic when Lorgar gets a roasting from the Emperor i don't think Lorgar would have hit him.

DuskRaider
27-01-2011, 20:44
While I do find it odd that Russ was chosen to act as hall monitor to the other Legions, the examples you gave really aren't much better.

1) Angron. I'm pretty sure the Emperor knows Angron dislikes, even hates him. To give him that kind of power would be as bad as planting the seeds to your own destruction (although you could say the Emperor did this anyhow). Angron is even quite open for his distaste of his father and Horus plays upon that.

2) Konrad Curze / Night Haunter. The Emperor knows that Curze is more or less batsh** crazy, but he also knows (or thought he knew) he could be contained to an extent. While Russ was the Emperor's Guard Dog, Curze was the Emperor's Attack Dog. Do you really believe that the actions by the Night Lords (and even World Eaters) weren't planned by the big E? He KNEW what these guys were doing, he was sanctioning it, condemning them in the public eye to keep their image of fear and patting them on the back behind the curtains. But when it comes down to it, Curze was way too unstable for a job like policing his brothers. Hell, he could barely keep control of his own Legion.

3) Sanguinius. The problem with Sanguinius is that he is TOO close to his brothers. When it came down to it, he wouldn't have the resolve to potentially kill a brother. He saw the bonds and connections to the other Primarchs as a family more than a military organization, which while it was valuable and did make him very well liked (even favored by Horus to become Warmaster), it would ultimately be his undoing. Bad fit.

On the other hand, you have a few Primarchs / Legions that MAY have been better suited for the job. Two off the top of my head are:

1) Mortarion. While he had no love loss for his father, he did respect him to a point. The problem was, he respected Horus more. That's neither here nor there for this example, but the big thing with him is that he had no real bonds with his brothers. Yes, he fought alongside of them. But he only really connected with Curze and Horus, maybe Angron to a lesser extent. Otherwise, he didn't favor one over the other. His Legion was known for being brutal and unstoppable, and their companies were far larger than most of the other Legions as well.

2) Alpharius. Perhaps his doctrines aren't as straight to the point as his brother Primarchs', but I could see Alpha Legion epitomizing the idea of Secret Police. They have the ability to hide in plain sight, they use operatives, and prefer unique battle tactics that even threw Gulliman off guard. I could see Alpharius quelling an Astartes uprising quite efficiently without significant loss to his own troops.

3) Dorn. Not sure why, he just seems to really embody the idea of martial status to me.

In all seriousness, I don't think Russ would have been very effective at all if he had been sent to subdue any of the other Legions, especially World Eaters, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Death Guard. They're fighting doctrines would either pose too much of a problem for the Wolves, or they'd be beaten at their own game (see: World Eaters). I highly doubt Russ could handle Angron in a one on one situation either, but unfortunately we never had the chance to see that come to pass.

Lord-Caerolion
27-01-2011, 20:55
Russ doesn't do anything without question though. He hated that his two brothers 'vanished', he fought to defend Lorgar, and even gave Magnus a chance to surrender when his orders were changed to "kill them all".

Also remember that we only have one source saying that the Wolves are the Emperors Executioners, and that one person is a Space Wolf, so is hardly reliable. It also raises the question that if the Wolves were only allowed to exist because of their role, how in the hell does the Emperor justify the World Eaters and Night Lords, both of whom have done much, much worse things than the Space Wolves, without the excuse of Executioner, and who the Emperor was largely content to let be.

Even if they were the Executioner legion, how would they do their duty? They're one of the smallest Legions, surely you'd want your executioners to be at least average-size. They had everything in their favour, and failed to wipe out the Thousand Sons, and that was with Custodes and Sister support.

The Wolves being executioners is nothing but the Wolves inflated opinion of themselves. Yes, they may have had a hand in destroying the two Lost Legions, but Russ certainly isn't suitable mentally for the role, and the Legion isn't suitable physically.

flota
27-01-2011, 23:26
i give them a nice trait to them... self control

its stated in that book... that being them need it a great deal of self control

i picture it very well, because they could have stoped the carnage if another order reach them.

spoilers....




in the book "bear" almost kills a "thousand sons marine", as he is about to deliver the final blow he is stoped by a mere plea of a human... a world eater wouldnt have stoped.
thats what makes them perfect for the job... thats my opinion anyway

sorry for my english :P

Nubl0
27-01-2011, 23:35
I think angron would have made a fine executioner. Seeing as all these fights end with the primarchs facing off anyway. I can't remember which book but I have seen people say Corax stated that none of his brother primarchs could hope to beat angron in a brawl, not even Russ.

flota
27-01-2011, 23:52
I think angron would have made a fine executioner. Seeing as all these fights end with the primarchs facing off anyway. I can't remember which book but I have seen people say Corax stated that none of his brother primarchs could hope to beat angron in a brawl, not even Russ.

that was corax opinion

Inquisitor Engel
28-01-2011, 00:00
From a story stand-point, it's a great point that a LOYAL legion is chosen to be the darkest, most brutal force the Emperor commands for the purpose and killing other Marines (a purpose that until Isstvan, was never even thought as a possibility).

He could have picked the World Eaters, with their brain surgeries, they could easily have done the task but instead the Emperor told them "No, stop doing that." The Night Lords' mental makeup would surely have them do it, but likely the Emperor thought them... too much. He couldn't trust Kurze to bring someone to justice... just to dish it out.

Russ was a brutal balance. Kill if needed, capture if that be the order.

Lord-Caerolion
28-01-2011, 00:08
Russ was a brutal balance. Kill if needed, capture if that be the order.

And be easily persuaded that it isn't worth capturing them, to instead just kill them all...

As above though, the problem isn't so much with the Wolves being executioners, but the idea that they were the worst of the worst, doing what "all other Legions would balk at". Since when were the World Eaters out-butchered? Since when were the Night Lords out-terrified? If the Wolves continued existance was only barely tolerated how were the Night Lords and World Eaters, who don't have the excuse of being the Emperors executioners?
Dans logic for choosing the Wolves as executioners only works if the Night Lords and World Eaters don't exist. Apparently, the Wolves "only reason" for existing is taking down other Legions. The World Eaters and Night Lords were worse, and were kept around because... killing civilians is harder than killing Marines? It just doesn't make sense.

ExquisiteMonkey
28-01-2011, 01:22
No one has mentioned the possibility of Lorgar or Fulgrim performing this function as well.

Lorgar, while noted in FH as being not a fighter himself, had one of the largest legions full of fanatics that until they were reprimanded for conquering worlds too slowly were all about the Emperor, could have persecuted his orders with the religious zeal that no other legion (except perhaps Fulgrim's) could have matched.
the EC's on the other hand, are noted as being one of the most combat efficient legions thanks to their pursuit of perfection in all things, and until Horus convinced Fulgrim otherwise at Istvaan (I'm not falling into the whole 'corrupted by a daemonsword' line of fluff), he was almost as fanatical about the Emperor as Lorgar. However, if all it took was a bit of TnA to convince Fulgrim to not follow through in censuring a wayward legion/brother, then I suppose he doesn't really fit the bill after all.

tezdal
28-01-2011, 01:34
I think Angron would have struggled against some of the over legions he seems to just charge in all the time his legion takes huge casualties in Galaxy in flames while trying to destroy Saul Tarvitz and the rest.
I think it's Russ because he's willing to do anything without question.
I found it weird Russ wasn't used in the first heretic when Lorgar gets a roasting from the Emperor i don't think Lorgar would have hit him.

I don't know, Angron seemed to stay at the forefront battles throughout the heresy without "struggling"...heck the WE even breached the Imperial Palace the strongest fortress in the Imperium..

orz192
28-01-2011, 01:54
If you think about it the Space Wolves are the Emporer's hunters.
They are fiercely loyal and wouldn't stop until their prey had been
eliminated. I can think of the wolves running down their enemy.

Against other Astartes it would be a blood bath. But they hunt well.
Russ also has his distaste for psykers so he would not be likely to be
tainted by the warp. And Russ doesn't seem to be power hungry.

Angron would cause devastation. He would not stop at just the prey he would destroy anything near the target. And he is unstable.

The Alpha Legion don't seem to me the type that would wage a war of
extermination.

Curze is a hunter but other Astartes would not be intimidated by the
Night Lords tactics. And he is also unstable and would cause collateral damage.

Mortarion doesn't seem agressive enough to me I am not as familiar with the Death Guard background. I think his legion was more about never giving ground or something like that?

Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, the Lion, Fulgrim, and Horus before the
heresy would have been to noble to act as executioners.

Perturabo is an expert on defences that wouldn't make sense.

Magnus is the most powerful psyker of the primarchs and I the
emporer would probably been more worried about keeping
watch over him/

New Cult King
28-01-2011, 02:48
"Smithers - release the hounds!"

'Nuff said ;)

Lupe
28-01-2011, 04:18
I don't want to get caught in who would have been a more efficient executioner discussion.

However, I'll answer the original question: Why Russ?

There are several good reasons.
- he's loyal enough not to question his orders, and cynical enough not to be shocked by them
- he's more than meets the eye; he's not really the savage he likes to play, and is, to the surprise of most of his brothers, a smart commander who plans in advance, despite appearances
- his legion suffers from a genetic curse, and for some reason (canis helix) it appears that the only world they can ever recruit from is Fenris, meaning that the legion is both small enough not to be seen as a threat by potential targets, and easy to dispose of if the Emperor thinks they overstep their bounds

Lord-Caerolion
28-01-2011, 04:29
easy to dispose of if the Emperor thinks they overstep their bounds

How? What force will he use to destroy his executioners? There aren't enough Custodes/Sisters, the Imperial Army sure as hell can't do it, and if he uses another Legion, that shows the flaw in using the Wolves as executioners. If he sends multiple Legions, it makes questions as to the validity of having an executioner Legion when sending two Legions is much easier.

madd0ct0r
28-01-2011, 04:49
Or he just bombards Fenris. No More fenrisians, no more Space Wolf Recruits.

Sure, they'd do damage before they were wiped out, but they would not be able to fight a war of attrition.

Lord-Caerolion
28-01-2011, 04:55
At which point, why not just do that with any Legion that goes rogue, and not require a Legion whose sole purpose is destroying other Legions?

New Cult King
28-01-2011, 05:08
We may be trying to apply too much logic to the situation.

Apart from the allegory of unleashing attack dogs onto an enemy, you also have the classical barbarian vs sorceror trope that I believe Conan made popular?

Lord-Caerolion
28-01-2011, 05:13
Yes, but that was there before the whole "the only reason the Emperor allows the Wolves to still exist is to take down other Legions" crud.

New Cult King
28-01-2011, 05:29
D'oh - I've just bought Prospero Burns, but have yet to read it - I'm just starting Nemesis.

I've noticed a few things in BL books, especially the HH ones - the authors seem to take little threads of concepts that have been vaguely introduced in the past, and spool them out and weave entirely new tapestries of guff out of them, with no regard for previous or existing fluff.

Ultimately, if the Big E was as omnipotent as depicted, he should have foreseen a potential need to remove a Legion from action, and built in a kill-switch or something in their geneseed. Sending a Legion to fight a Legion... it almost guarantees mutual annihilation if the Marines are indeed a perfect match for each other.

orz192
28-01-2011, 06:11
The other legions can recruit from more than one planet. So just destroying their home worlds wouldn't work.

The Space Wolves would require the initiative to do their dirty work. But Russ and his legion would be the best for the job.

Angron and the World Eaters wouldn't have the focus. On Terra they were distracted by butchering civilians according to the Horus Heresy art book.

And the one Son's of Horus captain, I think his name was Garviel Loken, beat Lucius of the Emporer's children in a duel breaking his nose. He did it without looking for perfection he punched him or something like that.

And Lorgar just wouldn't make sense, at least to me. He is a spiritual leader as much as a military leader.

Casper Hawser
28-01-2011, 13:15
I don't know, Angron seemed to stay at the forefront battles throughout the heresy without "struggling"...heck the WE even breached the Imperial Palace the strongest fortress in the Imperium..

I don't think it was just Angron and the world eaters who breached the imperial palace the iron warriors and legio mortis will have had a big part to play in it. I think if it's a big open battle then little would stand in the way of the world eaters. I was just trying to say Angron s rage would get in the way of breaking open a legions home world. I'm sure by the end of Galaxy of flames the World Eaters are down to half strength a third culled by the traitors and the rest defeated by the loylists who survive the life eater virus because they keep charging the defences.

Casper Hawser
28-01-2011, 15:12
I think angron would have made a fine executioner. Seeing as all these fights end with the primarchs facing off anyway. I can't remember which book but I have seen people say Corax stated that none of his brother primarchs could hope to beat angron in a brawl, not even Russ.

It's in Ravens flight in his opinion Horus and Sanguinus are the only two who would stand a chance against Angron.
In the lightning Tower Dorn states he would split Angron's skull but Dorn was almost killed my Curze.
I think Russ was beaten by the Lion when they first met.
So I think all the Primarchs are evenly matched (except Lorgar) it just depends how the battle goes who has that bit of luck or is willing to do whatever it takes to win.
Back to the executioner thing i wonder if its just been designed by the aurthors of these books because if you have one legion for this one legion for that then it would make sense to split the legions apart and have them all made up of diffrent groups so each Primarch would have members of each legion and use them for these so called roles set out for them apart from the Wolves of Fenris who would just sit at home playing board games until a planet, system or legion rebelled then you send for the wolves.:wtf:

The Anarchist
28-01-2011, 15:36
Having now finished Prospero Burns it strongly suggests at the end that Russ has been called upon before in his role as executioner, as such it comes to me might he first have been in the (sad) neccesary place at the right time to be used against a brother Primarch, and so the Emperor seeing that he fulfilled this role so well and did so unquestioningly now decided that was to be Russ's dark role; His final sanction?
afterall upon discovering each Primarch they can't all ahve been exactly as he expected, being molded to some extent by the world they were brough up on, and so whislt they may all have had an orginal purpose. his purpose for some of them might ahve changed and been molded by events longafter their initial desgin?

Inquisitor Engel
29-01-2011, 06:27
- he's loyal enough not to question his orders, and cynical enough not to be shocked by them

I would say this is a brilliant reason but begs the question:

Angron and Curze don't fulfill this either?

Curze I can see not wanting to bring the civil war he's seen in his head so many times to fruition but Angron... I can see him BEGGING to go.

static grass
29-01-2011, 07:02
We may be trying to apply too much logic to the situation.

Apart from the allegory of unleashing attack dogs onto an enemy, you also have the classical barbarian vs sorceror trope that I believe Conan made popular?

I think the imagary that GW is drawing on is how the Byzantine Emperors used vikings for their varangian guard. So in 40k we have Space Emperor uses the Space Vikings to beat on the bad marines because they are the most loyalst, hoowwwlllll....

Apfeljunge
29-01-2011, 07:05
I really don't get why so many people think Angron would be a good executioner.
I'm pretty sure most other legions would beat the World Eaters by using their brain.

Nazguire
29-01-2011, 07:17
Even if they were the Executioner legion, how would they do their duty? They're one of the smallest Legions, surely you'd want your executioners to be at least average-size. They had everything in their favour, and failed to wipe out the Thousand Sons, and that was with Custodes and Sister support.



Prospero Burns states that only by using dark sorcery were the Thousand Sons able to escape the Space Wolves. If they hadn't just disappeared into thin air, the Thousand Sons would all be dead, no question.

Sinisterfence
29-01-2011, 12:15
I would say this is a brilliant reason but begs the question:

Angron and Curze don't fulfill this either?

Curze I can see not wanting to bring the civil war he's seen in his head so many times to fruition but Angron... I can see him BEGGING to go.

You're missing the part where Lupe says LOYAL. Angron hated the Emperor, and while I'm sure he would've been pretty excited about killing one of his brothers, he couldn't be trusted in the long run.
Curze on the other hand is crazy enough as it is, being sent by his father to kill one of his brothers would sent him over the edge. Plus he's an extra grimdark Batman in power armour, and Batman's not an assassin.

theJ
30-01-2011, 19:49
Huh... I've always just assumed the Space Wolves were the best fighters. At least Loken claims them to be :p

Basically, all the legions have their strengths and their weaknesses (and seem to have kept them even unto this day). Dorn was a siege expert but less effective when there were no sieges going on. Guilliman was a master of tactics but ended up completely dumbstruck when people refused to play by the rules. Angron was unmatched in melee but couldn't do much against enemies with the sense to use their guns. Curze was a master of fear, but could do little against opponents who knew no fear (if you're a marine player, this is not the right time to talk back :P).

Russ and his wolves alone didn't have any single weakness. They could brawl (very well), they could shoot, they could think (especially Russ himself), they could scare.... and Russ had the sense to use this in the best possible way against his brothers, whom he knew far better than they ever realised.

Also, I seem to recall a scene where Russ interrupts a coven of Thousand Son sorcerers with his mere presence. Against an army of psykers, that ability has gotta be pretty darn useful :P

Lupe
30-01-2011, 20:02
Even if Kurze or Angron were loyal... would you really want to give the authority to attack another legion to the guys who take so much pleasure in it?

Russ makes no secret of his distrust for Magnus, but even so he doesn't order the legion to raid Prospero until the Emperor gives him the say so, after running out of options. Even more, he's waiting patiently and hoping things will be resolved peacefully. And I don't have Prospero Burns on me, but I'm fairly certain he even hopes Magnus will come quietly and spare themselves the needless bloodshed...

And yes, the Wolves seem to be flexible enough to take on and counter the strengths of any other legion.

Nazguire
30-01-2011, 20:48
Even if Kurze or Angron were loyal... would you really want to give the authority to attack another legion to the guys who take so much pleasure in it?

Russ makes no secret of his distrust for Magnus, but even so he doesn't order the legion to raid Prospero until the Emperor gives him the say so, after running out of options. Even more, he's waiting patiently and hoping things will be resolved peacefully. And I don't have Prospero Burns on me, but I'm fairly certain he even hopes Magnus will come quietly and spare themselves the needless bloodshed...

And yes, the Wolves seem to be flexible enough to take on and counter the strengths of any other legion.

Yeah...

He makes a plea through Kaspar, (thinking that at the time Kaspar is an agent of Magnus') to come out quietly, arrange the Legion all up ready and unarmed to, presumably, take them back to Terra. (or Magnus at least)

corax89
03-02-2011, 16:18
i dont have read prospero burn yet, but have they change the story from the older version, when horus tricks russ to attack and try kill magnus,
[SPOILER]//// instead of when the emperor hade orderd to bring magnus back for use him on the throne.//
i cant rely think why the emperor would not have made a fail-safe swith on all legions . if he ever was afrid of having too remove a renegade legion, with most legions been created to be brothers. binding a legion for so extreme purpose dont seems like a all too good way keep the brotherhood. but the good part with warhammer is that you can make it like you wana, and it's all depending what faction`s story (codex) you like to belive in^^

madd0ct0r
04-02-2011, 02:52
although a fail safe switch would have made the entire heresy rather shorter and one sided.

thus requiring the entire background to be rewritten. Besides, you don't build kill switches into your armies, otherwise one plucky boy with a wise old man, a short tempered fighter and the comedic relief will undo your entire empire. again.

Lord-Caerolion
04-02-2011, 03:13
i dont have read prospero burn yet, but have they change the story from the older version, when horus tricks russ to attack and try kill magnus,
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]//// instead of when the emperor hade orderd to bring magnus back for use him on the throne.//
i cant rely think why the emperor would not have made a fail-safe swith on all legions . if he ever was afrid of having too remove a renegade legion, with most legions been created to be brothers. binding a legion for so extreme purpose dont seems like a all too good way keep the brotherhood. but the good part with warhammer is that you can make it like you wana, and it's all depending what faction`s story (codex) you like to belive in^^

Nope, it's still that Russ was persuaded by Horus, and apparently Valdor as well, to kill Magnus, instead of bringing them back.

orz192
04-02-2011, 03:34
Horus has no contact with Russ in prospero burns, and no conversations between Russ and Valdor are in the book.

Nazguire
04-02-2011, 04:59
Horus has no contact with Russ in prospero burns, and no conversations between Russ and Valdor are in the book.

No.

There is no contact that Hawser sees between Russ and Horus. This is the difference. It doesn't answer it either way, to be honest. But as the book is through the eyes of Hawser, whom wasn't present during when the supposed conversation between Horus and Russ took place, if he doesn't see it, doesn't mean it never happened. If that makes sense...?

Lord-Caerolion
04-02-2011, 05:42
No.

There is no contact that Hawser sees between Russ and Horus. This is the difference. It doesn't answer it either way, to be honest. But as the book is through the eyes of Hawser, whom wasn't present during when the supposed conversation between Horus and Russ took place, if he doesn't see it, doesn't mean it never happened. If that makes sense...?

It's just like how in First Heretic, you don't see/hear the conversation where Lorgar fully turns to the Chaos Gods. It happens "off camera", yet it still happens, and if I remember correctly, it's stated in Collected Visions that that's what happens.

Bobske
04-02-2011, 10:15
I think the problem is that everyone wants their favourite legion being the best.
And the best can mean many things.
Most often it means the strongest.
But even the strongest can be divided in shooting, close combat, tactics, psychology etc.

GW has mentioned who had the best tally of victories and who came next.
Are they the best?


I the first trilogy members of several legions are discussing which legion is best.
The Lunar Wolves have the most victories etc etc.
Then they joke about who would win a fight and one states "the space Wolves, because they are clinically insane"

So are they the best and that is why they are the executioner's?
No, I think several people are spot on. Prospero burns states quite clearly that they are the most flexible and can be reigned in.
They are not stupid barbarians which charge in, they are ar clos knit group of warriors.

The legions of Dorn and Guilliman and Sanguinus are to rigid and honourable to fulfill the roll. As are the Emperor's children and Iron Warriors.
The thousand sons and Word bearers are clearly busy with other things; knowledge and belief.
The DEath guard are tough but inflexibel as are the Salamanders.
White Scars and raven guard too specialized
The World eaters, too
Dark Angels too distrustful
Night Lords and Alpha LEgion are once again too much specialized in terror tactics and special forces
Iron hands the same

etc. So the flexibility of the Wolves together with the ability to be reigned in and their clos knit brotherhood (don't get me started on the Canis Helix) nakes them ideal to be able to attack other legions.

The are the trained beasts that you unleash and call back, the one that goes for the throat in the most efficient way.
Executioner style, chop of the head and the body dies
They are not the best
But the best at what they do ;)

Shadow Lord
04-02-2011, 11:16
I agree with Bobske on this one but let me just make one remark: suppose it's only 1 Legion that goes rogue and the Emperor decides to sent the wolves in to bring them back as ordered. But when the Emperor sees that they can't be reined in, he gives the order to exterminate the other chapter. What would that do to the mind-set of the other Primarchs? Knowing that 1 among them is deemed more trusthworthy by the big E than others? Especially when they found out he's the Emperor's "Final Sanction? Gotta be a huge blow to the vision they have as the Emperor being a benevolent father...maybe they would remind themselves that they were all created by the Emperor and that they are nothing more than a living weapon, not a family?
That's why I think that the Emperor DID built in a fail save and it's called Space Wolves. Just as he made more Primarchs to serve other roles in his conquest of space...just my meagre 2 cents ofc.

Bold_or_Stupid
04-02-2011, 11:24
Speaking as a Wolf player...

The impression I get from reading the HH novels is that, the Space Wolves are the only legion that makes almost all the others nervous. Sure the WE are nasty hard and no one can beat Angron in melee, but they are treated as a joke, the same is true of the "nancy boy" Emperor's Children.

The only Legion that disparages the Space Wolves is the Thousand Sons... Who are doing "civilised man" underestimating the "barbarian".

Londinium
04-02-2011, 14:43
Bit of a tangent here but everyone keeps saying that Konrad Curze was batshit insane and ruling him out of contention for this role because of that. I think that's a rather simplistic view of the Night Haunter. Throughout much of his Imperial service he wasn't insane. He was psychologically damaged for sure but who wouldn't be when you had frequent, literally crippling, visions of the worst outcomes of the future as he did. It's only by the outbreak of the Heresy when he finally flips and even then it's a very schizophrenic madness. He vacillates between the normal highly intelligent philosophing Konrad Curze and the out of control unhinged Night Haunter. He's fairly lucid when M'Shen comes to kill him after all.

He could have had a role as the Emperor's executioner, indeed I think he would have relished the role. After all his creed was essentially use every tool in your box, don't impose morality upon war, because as Cicero said 'In war, the law is silent.'

Bonzai
04-02-2011, 20:18
Curze could have done the job, no question. But would he have done it the way the Emperor wanted? More likely he would have done it the way he saw fit, and wouldn't have stopped until he thought the job was done. Of all the Primarchs, he was the one who looked into the Emperor's eyes, knew exactly who and what he was, and more or less told him off. He beat down Dorn with little provication, and Corax ran from him like a little girl at Istivan. He Nuked his home planet, because it defied him. Not some one you want to give the authority to take down another legion. I doubt he would stop at just one.

Angron? As other's said, he is too 1 dimensional. He might achieve the goal through pure brute force and skill at arms, but the casualties would be enourmous. That, and the civilian casualties and collateral damage would be horrendous. Besides, Angron had a huge chip on his shoulder, and probably liked most of his brothers far more than he did the Emperor.

Alpharion? Probably could have done it. But when you want an overt display of force to set an example to others, these aren't the guys for the job.

I think that TheJ touched on it. The Space wolves kind of fit the jack of all trades, master of none, type of Legion.

They weren't as ferocious as the Word Eaters and Blood Angels, but gave them a run for their money.

Russ wasn't as tactically brilliant as Johnson and Horus, but he wasn't a slouch either. He had a nice combination of Cunning and flexibility that made him unpredictable.

There have been some other topics about the Primarchs, and Russ and Magnus are the hardest to pidgeon hole into easy stereotypes. Ironically, Magnus would be the 2nd best choice to send against another legion. Who could really defend against the sheer amount of psychic power they have? If Magnus hadn't handicapped his legion, it would have been a rough day for the space wolves. As it was, their hands were full until Tzeentch decided to intervien and turn a lot of them into spawn.

shadowhawk2008
05-02-2011, 04:35
Speaking as a Wolf player...

The impression I get from reading the HH novels is that, the Space Wolves are the only legion that makes almost all the others nervous. Sure the WE are nasty hard and no one can beat Angron in melee, but they are treated as a joke, the same is true of the "nancy boy" Emperor's Children.

The only Legion that disparages the Space Wolves is the Thousand Sons... Who are doing "civilised man" underestimating the "barbarian".

While a majority of the Thousand Sons Legion treat the Wolves and their Primarch as barbarians, there are a few that know better, or rather discover it to be otherwise, especially with regards to Russ. Ahriman remarks about Russ' false exterior as an uncouth, savage barbarian and how he does it to have people underestimate him and so on. Even Magnus remarks about it to Ahriman I believe.

Lord_Crull
05-02-2011, 05:09
Huh... I've always just assumed the Space Wolves were the best fighters. At least Loken claims them to be :p


Loken never claims anything. The closest you get is a from Torgeddon.



Guilliman was a master of tactics but ended up completely dumbstruck when people refused to play by the rules.


Hardly. The battle of Eskador is shrouded in doubt really. On other occasions Guilliman was never ''completely dumbstruck''

trigger
05-02-2011, 13:14
I don't think people have got sangunius right , he was the brother of brothers , his role was to be there to be the guideing hand to the other . Who else could they turn to. It is often commented to he being the wisest.
I also think people get the pre greasy angles wrong , they wernt blood thirsty , crazed maniacs they are now , they were the ideal legion , it was only after the primarchs physic death scream that it went to what it is.
Cruz and the night lords were terror specialists , something that works well to bring a planet/system to compliance but not to put a leigion in it's place.
Angron , he's a funny one because we never find out about his true self.
I believe he could have fit the role of the emperors champion quite well , a very proud cc specialist , but instead the emporer finds a labotomised nut bag , full of rage and guilt that he can't do any thing with, other than ' hi ! , now go conquer the galaxy for me'

The wolves to me fit perfectly ( yes I am a wolf player but hear me out )
Russ was seen as a barbaric loon who's only joys in life were to drink and bash skulls.
But at the end of the day he was a primarch , 1 of 20 of the most brilliant tactical minds humanty had ever seen!
He played his part , was loyal to the end so would not question orders. But on the other hand was probably a little pissed he had the dirty job. Who else could be told that
You secondary role is , one day you may have to kill your brother and lead your legion against his . Without , feeling joy at it or saying no ?

It's about time the wolves got some good rep again as Astartes of note , rather than **** head louts , who like a good fight or go whaleing from time to time.

Wyrmwood
05-02-2011, 14:07
It disappoints me that the World Eaters are treated as a joke by the other Astartes, and by extension, the authors. Such wasted potential.

Londinium
05-02-2011, 14:14
It disappoints me that the World Eaters are treated as a joke by the other Astartes, and by extension, the authors. Such wasted potential.

Well when your Primarch is a raving madman (unlike Curze) and embarks upon a project of cybernetically fiddling with all his legionaries to make them as bloodthirsty and messed up as possible there's not going to be a great deal of respect going around.

I agree there's a great deal of potential to be mined in the character and legion and to make them more three dimensional but it's not surprising the other Astartes treat them the way they do.

Nazguire
06-02-2011, 04:39
Angron? As other's said, he is too 1 dimensional. He might achieve the goal through pure brute force and skill at arms, but the casualties would be enourmous. That, and the civilian casualties and collateral damage would be horrendous. Besides, Angron had a huge chip on his shoulder, and probably liked most of his brothers far more than he did the Emperor.


Ironically, what did the Space Wolves do on Prospero? Wipe out the civilian population without a thought. Unleashed one of the worst orbital bombardments in Imperial history that wiped out all life on the planet.

There doesn't seem to be much about the attack on Prospero that suggests cunning or concern for collateral damage or anything remotely similar. Leman Russ blew the hell outta Prospero, realised Tizca was still intact, landed his Legion there, and butchered his way through everything till he got to Magnus.

shadowhawk2008
06-02-2011, 04:49
Ironically, what did the Space Wolves do on Prospero? Wipe out the civilian population without a thought. Unleashed one of the worst orbital bombardments in Imperial history that wiped out all life on the planet.

There doesn't seem to be much about the attack on Prospero that suggests cunning or concern for collateral damage or anything remotely similar. Leman Russ blew the hell outta Prospero, realised Tizca was still intact, landed his Legion there, and butchered his way through everything till he got to Magnus.

But there is also the ever-nagging question that what would Russ have done differently if Horus had not interfered with the Emperor's orders to bring Magnus and his legion back to Terra for sanction/trial over his actions?

Nazguire
06-02-2011, 06:48
But there is also the ever-nagging question that what would Russ have done differently if Horus had not interfered with the Emperor's orders to bring Magnus and his legion back to Terra for sanction/trial over his actions?

Probably done this.

"Come back to Terra with me Magnus"
"No."


Razing of Prospero.

shadowhawk2008
06-02-2011, 06:59
I haven't read Prospero Burns so I don't know the Wolves' side of the events but the sense I get from A Thousand Sons is that Magnus felt extremely guilty over what he had done to the extent that he powered down the defenses of Prospero, essentially leaving it open to attack and even killed one of his Captains. And he was almost willing to let his legion die fighting alone against Russ and his warriors but finally couldn't take enough of the slaughter.

Given his frame of mind at the moment, I believe he would have willingly offered himself to the chopping block, although his Captains would definitely have voiced their very strong and vocal objections against it. And I'll grant that there would have been quite a bit of fighting between the two legions until Russ and Magnus came to terms and Russ pretty much takes Magnus away in chains.

Stonerhino
06-02-2011, 07:14
In A Thousand Sons Magnus desides that chaos wants the (Feared by Chaos) Space Wolves and the (Wanted but unwilling) Thousand Sons to destroy each other. With the two legions that could stop the Heresy out of the way. They stood the highest chance of success.

This is why Magnus does not tell his legion that the Woles are coming. He is atoning for his mistake. The idea that he was just a pawn of chaos made him fell like deserved his fate.

Why Chaos fears the Space Wolves is never really said. But the impression I got from Prospero Burns. Is that Russ if not the Space Wolf Legion have been in that situation before. This can also explain why at the time of Prospero Burns the Space Wolves only have one surviving member that was from Earth (Longfang) and why they seem to be much smaller then the other legions. Not counting the Thousand Sons. But they have a known reason to be so small.

Sarapham
06-02-2011, 12:35
Ironically, what did the Space Wolves do on Prospero? Wipe out the civilian population without a thought. Unleashed one of the worst orbital bombardments in Imperial history that wiped out all life on the planet.

There doesn't seem to be much about the attack on Prospero that suggests cunning or concern for collateral damage or anything remotely similar. Leman Russ blew the hell outta Prospero, realised Tizca was still intact, landed his Legion there, and butchered his way through everything till he got to Magnus.

In Prospero Burns it shows that Russ sends warnings to Magnus and tells him to evacuate all civilians and then waits for said civilians to leave before starting his assault.

Nazguire
06-02-2011, 18:35
In Prospero Burns it shows that Russ sends warnings to Magnus and tells him to evacuate all civilians and then waits for said civilians to leave before starting his assault.

The only thing I can recall is him speaking to Hawser. No official proclamation was made that I can recall. That was his act of mercy. Since he didn't get any response whatsoever, he (Magnus) used that last shred of mercy up and the invasion began as it did. So even though he may have tried, no actual warning was given and he still destroyed everything on Prospero, civilians included that didn't escape into orbit, and there would have been millions that didn't make it.

Sarapham
06-02-2011, 20:23
The only thing I can recall is him speaking to Hawser. No official proclamation was made that I can recall. That was his act of mercy. Since he didn't get any response whatsoever, he (Magnus) used that last shred of mercy up and the invasion began as it did. So even though he may have tried, no actual warning was given and he still destroyed everything on Prospero, civilians included that didn't escape into orbit, and there would have been millions that didn't make it.

They mention in the book that the Space Wolves monitors lots of escape shuttles leaving the planet, one of them carrying characters from A Thousand Sons. So atleast some were allowed allowed to leave because its not like they were shot down in orbit.

Russ did not go in with a shoot first and ask later attidude.

=Angel=
06-02-2011, 21:19
The often ignored part of the 'civilian massacre' is that it was a planet of psykers and sorcerors. The civilians ranged from David Blaine to Darth Sidius in their mastery of unsanctioned psychic ability.

There wasn't a lot of time to have the runepriests quiz them. IIRC A thousand sons never really mentions the civvies fighting back, but then it wouldn't.
It's not a part of the story the space wolves would like to remember either.

Lord_Crull
07-02-2011, 00:15
They mention in the book that the Space Wolves monitors lots of escape shuttles leaving the planet, one of them carrying characters from A Thousand Sons. So atleast some were allowed allowed to leave because its not like they were shot down in orbit.


that appears to be done indepndantly of Russ's warnings. Russ tried to warn Magnus through Hawser, but Hawser was not Magnus's spy but the daemon's.


The often ignored part of the 'civilian massacre' is that it was a planet of psykers and sorcerors. The civilians ranged from David Blaine to Darth Sidius in their mastery of unsanctioned psychic ability.


Hardly. Many have psychic abiltites yes, but they are portrayed as rather normal civillians. In fact the crime that Magnus was punished for (the breaking of the Nikea decree in sending a message to the Emperor) was almost completely independant of them. The highest enchalons of the Thousand Sons carried it out and decided to do it. I doubt the civillian population had any idea what Magnus had done.

shadowhawk2008
07-02-2011, 07:43
The often ignored part of the 'civilian massacre' is that it was a planet of psykers and sorcerors. The civilians ranged from David Blaine to Darth Sidius in their mastery of unsanctioned psychic ability.

There wasn't a lot of time to have the runepriests quiz them. IIRC A thousand sons never really mentions the civvies fighting back, but then it wouldn't.
It's not a part of the story the space wolves would like to remember either.


I'll have to check but I do believe that the armies of the Prospero Spireguard present on the planet DID fight back against the Space Wolves but were obviously not up to the task.

Nazguire
07-02-2011, 07:49
I'll have to check but I do believe that the armies of the Prospero Spireguard present on the planet DID fight back against the Space Wolves but were obviously not up to the task.

They did fight back. They lasted two minutes in one position, and probably not much longer in other positions they took against the Space Wolves. Ogvai himself dominated a tank that attacked them.

Hashulaman
08-02-2011, 06:03
Is it quite possible that the Cani Helix makes them somwhat less likely to be tainted by Chaos. Wolves being canine, represent intense loyalty perhaps? So they'd be one of the more logical choices simply because the Space Wolves are Genetically loyal to the Emperor and Chaos Taint could not change that? Or at least it would take more than it would normally take to corrupt a SW?


Oh, does Russ have the Canis Helix too? I thought it was exclusive to Fenris and Russ was made on Luna.

Lord-Caerolion
08-02-2011, 06:14
Is it quite possible that the Cani Helix makes them somwhat less likely to be tainted by Chaos. Wolves being canine, represent intense loyalty perhaps? So they'd be one of the more logical choices simply because the Space Wolves are Genetically loyal to the Emperor and Chaos Taint could not change that? Or at least it would take more than it would normally take to corrupt a SW?


Oh, does Russ have the Canis Helix too? I thought it was exclusive to Fenris and Russ was made on Luna.

The Canis Helix has to be a part of Russ, as the settlers don't have it (after all, every implantee needs to ingest the Helix, showing they don't have it).

shadowhawk2008
08-02-2011, 06:23
Is it quite possible that the Cani Helix makes them somwhat less likely to be tainted by Chaos. Wolves being canine, represent intense loyalty perhaps? So they'd be one of the more logical choices simply because the Space Wolves are Genetically loyal to the Emperor and Chaos Taint could not change that? Or at least it would take more than it would normally take to corrupt a SW?

Oh, does Russ have the Canis Helix too? I thought it was exclusive to Fenris and Russ was made on Luna.

It is highly debatable if Russ already had the Canis Helix when he was born or whether it was present in every form of life on Fenris and he absorbed it. At least I view the Canis Helix as being equatable in some ways to the spice melange of Dune and how it is present on Arrakis and how exposure over time can result in changes to the body and such.

And the Primarchs were created in the Emperor's vault in the Himalayas.

While your theory about genetic loyalty is interesting there was a minor plot point in BFTA when the SM captain attacks his own blood claws under the effects of Chaos induced trance that increased his susceptability to the Wulfen-curse. And such a thing is also hinted at in the earlier Space Wolf books. In the last one it is outright stated that a crazed Wulfen will attack anyone as Mikal Stenmark did.

stormblade
08-02-2011, 12:18
and Corax ran from him like a little girl at Istivan.


Is this something from Fulgrim because there is no mention of it in the Raven's Flight?

shadowhawk2008
08-02-2011, 12:19
Fulgrim makes no mention of the fate of Corax and Vulkan.

Lord-Caerolion
08-02-2011, 12:31
Is this something from Fulgrim because there is no mention of it in the Raven's Flight?

Nope, it's from The First Heretic.

stormblade
08-02-2011, 12:48
Thanks for the info.

Londinium
08-02-2011, 17:41
He doesn't run like a little girl to be fair. He beats the crap out of Lorgar and is about to kill him before the Night Haunter intervenes and then Corax makes a tactical retreat in the face of two Primarchs to cover his Legion's continuing retreat against overwhelming odds. Hardly a case of running away like a girl.

Lupe
09-02-2011, 04:55
He doesn't run like a little girl to be fair. He beats the crap out of Lorgar and is about to kill him before the Night Haunter intervenes and then Corax makes a tactical retreat in the face of two Primarchs to cover his Legion's continuing retreat against overwhelming odds. Hardly a case of running away like a girl.

Well, it's a sensible decision, but it doesn't do Corax any credit, compared to the way Lorgar reacts, knowing beforehand that he's going to enter a losing battle with Corax but knowing it's something he needs to face, regardless of the outcome

Londinium
10-02-2011, 11:47
Well, it's a sensible decision, but it doesn't do Corax any credit, compared to the way Lorgar reacts, knowing beforehand that he's going to enter a losing battle with Corax but knowing it's something he needs to face, regardless of the outcome

That's a rather fatalistic glorifying sacrifice way to look at it. While in the context of the book and dramatically Lorgar's action is admirable, strategically and tactically it's idiotic. Indeed ADB makes as much obvious in the book, Lorgar is irrationally going to his death to save Argel Tal and co.

Lorgar does it because he sees his favoured daemon possessed Gal Vorbak being munched through by Corax. If he had got himself killed over such a personal issue it would have been a massive blow to the Heresy. Kor Phaeron says as much as tries to stop him from going into battle. Lorgar seems to have been elevated to almost joint leader of the Heresy alongside Horus, Horus providing the muscle and Lorgar providing the spiritual. To have killed himself for little reason would have been stupid.

Corax meanwhile isn't as blinded as Lorgar. He weighs up the odds and decides rather than possibly throwing his life away, he'll cover his legion's retreat.

One is thinking sensibly, the other rationally and emotionally. While in terms of Lorgar's character, throwing himself into the fray to save the Gal Vorbak is an incredibly brave thing to do, it doesn't reflect badly upon Corax that he wasn't prepared to waste his life for a lost cause. He'd just seen Ferrus Manus do that without any benefit whatsoever.

Casper Hawser
10-02-2011, 13:58
It disappoints me that the World Eaters are treated as a joke by the other Astartes, and by extension, the authors. Such wasted potential.

I Don't think there considered a joke in Galaxy of Flames Loken calls them butchers which Kharn agrees with i'm guessing the place of the World Eaters is that if a world will not except compliance even if their armys and heads of state are destroyed the World Eaters are sent in to kill everthing so the planet can be colonised with imperial citizens or used in whatever way the imperium decides best.

shadowhawk2008
10-02-2011, 14:49
They are a joke exactly because they are so one dimensional. There is no art, no finesse, no purpose, no goal to their tactics other than just the killing aspect of it. They are buthcers and individuals in other legions and within the World Eaters themselves know it and acknowledge it to be so. They would probably have been different had their Primarch been raised differently and had not spent years of his life growing up as a mentally-controlled gladiator.

And legions aren't so free with their posting as your post would suggest. Each legion is responsible for a certain expeditionary fleet and sometimes is broken down into several such formations as Horus Rising suggests about the Blood Angels and later Galaxy in Flames suggests about the Emperor's Children when the Legion is split prior to the Istvaan Massacre. Legions aren't suddenly called away from their operations to put down rebellions or make planets compliant in other parts of the galaxy.

Casper Hawser
10-02-2011, 17:47
I know what your saying but this comes down to each Legion having their own special role so the World Eaters are the butchers if you want a steak Angrons your man.
From what i can tell the World Eaters are already a brutal legion before Angron joins them so maybe he's not that changed at all.
Also don't you find it a bit strange that alot of the legions are split into smaller expeditionary forces but the Luna Wolves are not or at least don't seem to be in the novels.

Casper Hawser
10-02-2011, 17:48
Aww no ive just made a joke at the World Eaters expense.

Lord-Caerolion
10-02-2011, 22:11
They are a joke exactly because they are so one dimensional. There is no art, no finesse, no purpose, no goal to their tactics other than just the killing aspect of it. They are buthcers and individuals in other legions and within the World Eaters themselves know it and acknowledge it to be so. They would probably have been different had their Primarch been raised differently and had not spent years of his life growing up as a mentally-controlled gladiator.
They have their honour though, something that Angron brought from his homeworld. They just understand that sometimes the Emperor needs a scalpel to carefully excise a rebellion, at other times it's better to simply start over. Some times, genocide is required when conquering the galaxy, and the World Eaters understand that.


And legions aren't so free with their posting as your post would suggest. Each legion is responsible for a certain expeditionary fleet and sometimes is broken down into several such formations as Horus Rising suggests about the Blood Angels and later Galaxy in Flames suggests about the Emperor's Children when the Legion is split prior to the Istvaan Massacre. Legions aren't suddenly called away from their operations to put down rebellions or make planets compliant in other parts of the galaxy.

Well, Legion seems to disagree with that, with the Alpha Legion acting independantly of an expidition, and Prospero Burns has the Rout appearing to help an expedition fleet they weren't attached to.

shadowhawk2008
18-02-2011, 13:15
I am not denying any exceptions/

AvatarForm
19-02-2011, 06:38
This thread began awesome... and now ill-informed opinions have entered the fray...

Brother Grimmnar
19-02-2011, 15:53
Besides the fact that Russ’ loyalty is one of the greatest among the Primarchs, there is the other fact that the Wolves of Fenris are second to none when it comes to battle.
No other Legion/Chapter can quite match them in effectiveness, tenacity and resolve. (with the exception of the Grey Knights, of course :p)
Because of their unique Canis Helix and their subsequent touch of the beast, they are the Astartes that’s got most chances against Chaos and/or psychic corruption.
We go around assuming that the missing Legions might have had something to do with Chaos. The Thousand Sons are led by a psychic power-house. Hence, the Wolves were the best answer to both cases.
That’s my take on it.

Lord_Crull
19-02-2011, 16:54
there is the other fact that the Wolves of Fenris are second to none when it comes to battle.


Definitely not. We have seen Space Wolves beaten before in battle. (A Space Wolf is beaten in single combat by an Ultramarine in battle of the abyss for example) An individual Space Wolf is not consitantly superior to an individual Astartes of any other chapter.


No other Legion/Chapter can quite match them in effectiveness, tenacity and resolve. (with the exception of the Grey Knights, of course :p)


Doubtful. I doubt that any chapter is nessecarily better than any other. Except maybe the Grey Knights. The Wolves are not superior to the Ultramarines or the Fists.


Because of their unique Canis Helix and their subsequent touch of the beast, they are the Astartes that’s got most chances against Chaos and/or psychic corruption.


I think the Grey Knights may have something to say about that.

nagash66
19-02-2011, 17:24
Read the marine codex/watch the movie/ check out other GW sources.

The best chapter/marines are Ultramarines and that's why all the others secretly want to be them and consider Papa Smurf their spiritual liege:p.

boogaloo
19-02-2011, 17:27
At which point, why not just do that with any Legion that goes rogue, and not require a Legion whose sole purpose is destroying other Legions?

I'm no fluff nut but isn't the answer that other legions can recruit from other worlds? so destorying on eworld wouldn't have the same impact on any other legion that it would on the wolves.

Brother Grimmnar
19-02-2011, 17:56
Definitely not. We have seen Space Wolves beaten before in battle. (A Space Wolf is beaten in single combat by an Ultramarine in battle of the abyss for example) An individual Space Wolf is not consitantly superior to an individual Astartes of any other chapter.

Doubtful. I doubt that any chapter is nessecarily better than any other. Except maybe the Grey Knights. The Wolves are not superior to the Ultramarines or the Fists.

I think the Grey Knights may have something to say about that.


Although I agree that singularly each Astartes is pretty much equal in single combat and that one-on-one fight might get equal odds, what I was trying to say is that the Wolves, as a whole, are as they are.
Somehow I doubt that, Chapter on Chapter, neither the Ultramarines nor the Imp. Fists could defeat the Wolves.
They have demonstrated that on at least one occasion. Went all the way to Prospero, on the enemy’s home turf and got the better of them. And if they indeed did it to the two missing Legion as well, then we have them doing that on three occasions.
Yes, the Grey Knights may have something to say, the point is that – sticking to the thread’s timeline, at that time the Grey Knights weren’t around to have something to say. Agreed?

Brother Dereus
19-02-2011, 18:13
Somehow I doubt that, Chapter on Chapter, neither the Ultramarines nor the Imp. Fists could defeat the Wolves.

:eek:
Forget the Imperial Fists. But the Ultramarines????
We wouldn’t bother to bring extra ammo to a fight with the Wolves. One clip per battle-brother will be sufficient to get them tails between the legs. And we’d still have bolter rounds to spare! :D

Lord_Crull
19-02-2011, 18:17
They have demonstrated that on at least one occasion. Went all the way to Prospero, on the enemy’s home turf and got the better of them. And if they indeed did it to the two missing Legion as well, then we have them doing that on three occasions.


Actually the Wolves had many, many advantages against the Sons.

They had the Sisters of Silence to supress the Sons powers and the Custodes to aid them in battle. In addition Magnus repeatedly sabotaged his own Legion. Read A Thousand Sons. He ordered away the Sons fleet, deactivated the orbital defenses, deliberately blocked the Sons precognition and even murdered one of his own officers in order to prevent warning of the Wolves from reaching the Sons. and Magnus refused to fight for almost the entire battle. When he did finally intervene to evacuate his Legion it was too late for any possible chance of victory.

I'm not saying it was a cakewalk for the Wolves, but the Wolves went in there with the deck heavily stacked in their favor before the battle even begun. Any Legion could have done what they did with the advantages the Wolves had.

As for the Legions, we have speculation as to what happened at best. Russ's own comments don't provide any detail at all what happened.

Challenge Accepted
19-02-2011, 20:13
In The First Heretic, shortly after the two "missing" Legions were dealt with, the Ultramarines got a huge influx of new troops, and significantly increased in size. Clearly hinting that the two Legions astartes became Ultramarines, which would hint at the possibility that very few of them were at their Primarchs side when they were censured by Russ and his Legion.

With how little we know of what happened, it's not fair to use the two missing Legions as examples of the Wolves battle prowess.

Nazguire
20-02-2011, 00:09
In The First Heretic, shortly after the two "missing" Legions were dealt with, the Ultramarines got a huge influx of new troops, and significantly increased in size. Clearly hinting that the two Legions astartes became Ultramarines, which would hint at the possibility that very few of them were at their Primarchs side when they were censured by Russ and his Legion.

With how little we know of what happened, it's not fair to use the two missing Legions as examples of the Wolves battle prowess.

No. It's rumoured that that is what happened. ADB has even said that he wrote it as bias-filled rumour in his characters. The characters that mention this even acknowledge it's baseless rumour.

It would make sense for all those Space Marines to be reintegrated. But face it, based on the HH books, how many would actually fight for another Primarch, let alone against their own Primarch, whom they love like a Father/Brother/whatever. ?

Challenge Accepted
20-02-2011, 00:40
No. It's rumoured that that is what happened. ADB has even said that he wrote it as bias-filled rumour in his characters. The characters that mention this even acknowledge it's baseless rumour.

It would make sense for all those Space Marines to be reintegrated. But face it, based on the HH books, how many would actually fight for another Primarch, let alone against their own Primarch, whom they love like a Father/Brother/whatever. ?

It's hinted at regardless, akin to Horus' demonic visions - the reader is to decide just what they think of it. It's not fact by any means, but I never claimed it was. I can't prove that it's true, as you can't prove it's false. So I'm not sure what the "No" is about.

We have no idea what happened to the missing Primarchs - and if their large amounts of the Legions survived, it likely means they were elsewhere, as no Legion fought at full strength all the time. If they have no idea what happened to their Primarchs, why would they oppose rejoining the crusade under another banner? It would also explain why the fate of said brothers is hush-hush.

Lord-Caerolion
20-02-2011, 07:07
It's hinted at regardless, akin to Horus' demonic visions - the reader is to decide just what they think of it. It's not fact by any means, but I never claimed it was. I can't prove that it's true, as you can't prove it's false. So I'm not sure what the "No" is about.

We have no idea what happened to the missing Primarchs - and if their large amounts of the Legions survived, it likely means they were elsewhere, as no Legion fought at full strength all the time. If they have no idea what happened to their Primarchs, why would they oppose rejoining the crusade under another banner? It would also explain why the fate of said brothers is hush-hush.

Yeah, we can prove it's false. Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the author of First Heretic, has stated that he didn't intend for anyone to take it as anything other than hateful rumour-mongering, and that if he thought people would have taken it as truth he wouldn't have included it. That's pretty proven.

Challenge Accepted
20-02-2011, 07:35
Yeah, we can prove it's false. Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the author of First Heretic, has stated that he didn't intend for anyone to take it as anything other than hateful rumour-mongering, and that if he thought people would have taken it as truth he wouldn't have included it. That's pretty proven.

Shoot me a link to your source.

And regardless of even if that is the case, it still doesn't change that you cannot use the two Legions destruction as proof of the Space Wolves battle prowess when we have no idea what happened.