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Slazton
29-01-2011, 14:46
I want this to go on record first, I am happy with the current Chaos Codex how it allows for a variety of different armies with comprehensible unit choices and tactics can be born that were not available in the previous version. However, the current Chaos Codex lacks a few things.

First it actually lacks anything to do with Chaos. It’s now like a lover's marriage after thirty years where the man is more interested in everything else, but his original lover. Daemon Princes are all practically the same and lack the actual 'character' profile that used to go with Chaos Armies.

Chaos Space Marine armies used to be about 'egos' trying to become Daemon Princes and killing the Emperor. Now its about killing the Emperor and partially using Chaos. Chaos Gods gift their followers, so why remove one of the best things from the previous codex? Daemonic Gifts became nothing but a passing dream. It would have been simple to convert a few of these gifts into unit choices and allowed for some development.

The second part that gets me is the fact 'God Specific' Daemons are not in the CSM, but have their own complete codex now. Well that is awesome, but it creates an image where the Chaos Gods and Chaos Space Marines are two separate entities without a common set goal. Why can't CSM have access to 'real' Bloodletters? Why do Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons not have Marks or Icons? Why is a Daemon Prince the same statistics regardless of what you play? Why can't a Daemon Prince take a daemon weapon?

Essentially what I want to see from a new Chaos Codex (probably two or three years down the road because the current codex does WORK) is the developers taking elements from the previous codex and this current codex and developing Chaos Space Marines further. Yes I want some rules related around Chaos Gods and probably some fluff to back up why Nurgle Marines and Tzeentch Marines (not Cult Marines) can work together without pissing off their respected God. Wouldn't mind seeing the return of Legion specific rules or the option to build these type of armies designed into the actual unit choice.

A lot of what I'm asking for can be edited into a unit selection and its not a heavy change to the Codex. Allow for Daemonic Strength, Mutation and other 'fun' Daemonic Gifts to return, but as specific up-grades for only certain units.

Now its time to be ripped apart and be told I'm old and cranky and just want my previous Chaos Codex back because I want my on the charge insta-killer Daemon Prince of Slaanesh back. In truth, I want that creation to die as fast as a turbo charged zombie on red bull. I want the 'character' of Chaos put back into the Codex with a character being able to choose from God specific gifts eg: Nurgle Lord, can choose 'Plague of Flies' ability which gives him a cover save.....Something along those lines that suits both the character and the nature of the Chaos God.

Happy Gaming folks.

Xandros
29-01-2011, 15:03
I think daemon princes are at present far too weak. Not a poor choice by any means, but an unsuitably weak and expendable one.

Daemonic Gifts were somewhat crap, since there were a few that were universally taken, +1 strength and +1 attack in particular. I think there's room for a great many upgrades though, that are not daemonic gifts as previously conceived. We have icons for squads. Is nice. Add to that yet more specialisations characteristic of the various undivided legions. Exotic weapons for unit champions, mutated individuals like Mark of the Wulfen in Codex Space Wolves, more daemon weapons, cult upgrades for independent characters, bring back the cult vehicle upgrades and conceive a bunch of exotic upgrades for daemon princes like many of the ones in Codex Chaos Daemons in addition to a greater variety of more powerful psychic powers.

Luthor's Shadow
29-01-2011, 15:14
Some type of Daemonic Gift would be preferable. Even if its not the previous version, just let us have toys to show love from the Chaos Gods...

The Chaos Gods are real, like it or not. These are real Gods that pay attention to their followers and unlike the Emperor who we think is a God, they reward servitude with new toys, up-grades, and power. Chaos is the 'shortcut' to the road of power. Never understood why its a shortcut when it usually ends up with you being a dead guy, a mindless zealot stuck at one phase of the Path of Damnation, a spawn with three eyes, two chins and sixteen different limbs all ready to dice and slice those cumbersome onions, or the real destination, a complete Slave to the Chaos Gods as a Daemon Prince.

I miss the cult specific up-grades (Thousand Son Termies anyone?) and I agree there should be a variety of psychic powers and inventive ways of applying gifts. The Daemonic Stregnth, Mutation, etc are gone, but they can come back as unit up-grades. Strength, Mutation and Escense should only be accessible by Lords, Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Not Aspiring Champions.

Bring back my Slaaneshi daemonettes or allow me to give an Icon/Mark to my squad of Lesser Daemons so I can be happy using the models isntead of thinking, these are not real daemonettes, just lesser daemons with the wrong image downloaded when they crossed from the warp over...........

May Insantiy Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

Born Again
30-01-2011, 01:03
For Chaos Codex discussion, see thread here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290511). Or any of the others. Or wait until next week's thread, really :p

I've been thinking the next book could really benefit from Daemonic Gifts like the Dark Eldar's Arcane Wargear. Reletively powerful, but very limited. Allow your HQ's and Chosen to beef up and be really deadly (but expensive), without turning the entire army in to a mass of upgrades and special rules.

One thing I do like is how in the current book, one item has different effects based on what Mark you bear, ie; daemon weapons and steeds. It allows some difference between the powers, yet makes things much more simple in the options list.

Xandros
30-01-2011, 01:07
(EDIT: In response to Luthor's Shadow...)


It's only perceived as a shortcut. You come to feel powerful, but in reality you're not in control. You may be succesful in society, but only because you're doing what your surroundings expect of you. You may make friends if you do not show your true self. You take the easy path, but it will only make you weaker in the end. Blind faith forged you into a powerful force, but you were never given a choice. Others chose for you, thrust this upon you, brought this upon themselves. You are become vengeance, the pain inflicted upon you shall be returned a hundred-thousand fold. You now know true power, as ancient as time itself. It has many names. And cannot be opposed. Should not. They will never understand. Your destiny is a god, powerful beyond imagining, and this power is yours to unleash, unrestrained by compassion or reason. Free.

Celebrate your freedom. Revel in the sins that are forbidden to lesser men.

Mondo80
30-01-2011, 07:44
A couple of guys who worked at GW said they thought the codex was a bit too toned down. Work with what ya got, sure the Imperials have all the cool toys, a little more than half the codex's are Imperial. Anything with wings or jetpack can deepstrike, we have a cheap Landraider, the defiler works a bit better with 5th ed., a variety of troop choices, a wide selection of heroes, a decent amount of weapons and plenty of conversion options. Ive got a dreadnought with a carnifex head mounted as a trophy and custom lord I made from scratch. The new codex is a bit more streamlined to me, the crazy war-gear list just to make a DP was a hassle. I think after all the dexes are updated they'll make a new one for chaos.

Inach
30-01-2011, 11:23
The common agreement here on warseer, from chaos players, is that chaos needs to be more then 'spiked marines'. And I fully support that. With the daemons removed to their own dex, something else should give that feeling back. Some options:
- More daemonic empowered vehicles like the defiler
- Options to not get punisched for fluff lists (make legion rules)
- Chaos sorcerer (together with Eldar psykers) are about the strongest Psykers fluffwise, give them ways to cast spells even though Psychic Hoods are around.
- Make Daemonic like figures even a little bit worth while, so people gonna play those (less spiky marines). GW has created some but realy messed up the rules: Spawn and possessed.
- personally I would love to see some traitor guardsmen included into the dex. That would not only give new possibilities (let them summon a greater daemon during the fight and roll a d6. On 1 they all die nothing happeneds, on 2,3 or 4 the requested greater daemon appears, on 5 another greater daemon appears, on 6 the requested greater daemon appears but slays them all) but also boost sales...

SamaNagol
30-01-2011, 12:13
It suffered from stripping down all the colourful units, making them overpriced and ineffective, and then seeing a bunch of new codices come out with even cheaper units.

The whole book needs a re-balance of points and power.

MarshallSam
30-01-2011, 13:36
I think the Chaos Marine Codex only needs a few things to make it a little more flavorful:

- Somet type of transport that can transport a full squad of 20 marines! I always thought of just an upgrade to the current models. Something like a pocket dimension inside a rhino. Where the inside is bigger than the outside, a little like Dr. Who's phone booth.

- Icons are good, but I think we could go a step further with them. If I buy an Icon of Nurgle for my termies, for example, I could then buy something like a Legion/Cult upgrade. Know my Terminators have blight grenades and FNP along with the +1 T, just like Plauge Marines. Also if upgraded in such a manner it removes the rule about losing the ability if Icon Bearere dies. This could work for all Lords, Sorcerers (except Khorne), Daemon Princes, Chosen, Terminators, Bikers, Havocs, Raptors, and Possessed.

Although for Possessed I would rather see something like combining the 4 lesser daemons rules with the Marines. For example if I buy both the Icon and Cult/Legion upgrade of Khorne, my Possessed now are WS 5 A +1 have Hellblades and Furious Charge! This way you can see that a Possessed of Khorne is actually possessed by Bloodletter.

- I'll repeat for completeness: More Daemon Engines! :evilgrin:

As much as I would like to see Traitor Guardsman or Mutants in the Codex, I don't think that they fit, gameswise. If they didn't want Daemons overshadowing the Marines, then I highly doubt they would include traitor guardsman. Also I can see that as long as C:CD is in existance we will never see real daemons again in the C:CSM. But I'm ok with this, I just justified is as the Chaos Daemons in the CSM Codex were summoned with weak/quick/inferior summoning rituals and that when they come through the warp they are far weaker/inferior to the true daemons that come through from a propper warp breach.

The Anarchist
30-01-2011, 14:47
Bring back legion/cult marines and i will be happy. i had intended to play a chaos army of tzeentch, bough a squad of them and also converted 9 termies to look 1k sons and then new codex came out....i went back to fantasy up until a month ago in bitter disapointment of that event

TimLeeson
30-01-2011, 15:20
I'm not a chaos marine player - but from a neutral designer POV. I would personally do the following :

* I'd add traitor-guardsmen, mutants, Zombies and especially cultists.

* I'd give each legion a unique unit (like say how Blood angels have sanguinary guard for example).

* More special characters (at least 1 for each legion who doesnt have one already). I'd also give a few new characters for renegade-chapters (for that matter, id make "better" new chaos chapter examples, most of the ones in the last book were terrible!)

* Generic Legion HQ's. Each of these would work like a character that opens up specific builds but is more flexible and has more options. I.e. Taking a Night Lords HQ allows you to take a Night Lords specific unit and changes stats/Force Og ect. This maybe a good way to make legions more true to the fluff.

* Modelwise, id give them upgrade kits for legions, a plastic dread, plastic oblits, plastic raptors and various metal blisters/boxsets.

Mr. Ultra
30-01-2011, 15:29
The current Chaos Space Marines need only one thing: a new Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Grand Master Raziel
30-01-2011, 15:39
Traitor Guardsmen and Mutants in the next Chaos dex isn't a bad idea. Sure, it wouldn't exactly be as good as having a full out Lost and the Damned codex, but it'd be better than nothing. There are lesser and greater daemons in the current book, so there could be generic traitors, cultists, and mutants in the next Chaos dex.

New daemon engines - sure!

20-capacity Rhino? Probably not. However, I could see Chaos getting some new Land Raider variants, so one with an increased capacity isn't unreasonable. Maybe it could have sponson TL-autocannons - removes the need for the onboard power generators for the lascannons, which is the same justification for the increased capacity as for the Crusader. Just spitballing, the specifics of the variants could be quite different from that.

I could see Cult rules coming back, but there's not a very strong case for bringing back rules for all the Legions. The Undivided legions can be represented through unit choice without the need for extraneous, possibly broken additional rules.

Daemonic Gifts - my knee jerk reaction is "Oh hell no!" My more considered reaction is maybe, but nowhere near as widespread as they were in 3.5. I could see giving them to Daemon Princes, since they don't get wargear, and Possessed would be a good candidate as well for the same reason. However, no entry should get access to both wargear and daemonic gifts. That was one of the hella broken things about 3.5, and I really don't want to see it come back.

As for returning to the old cross-cult animosities and a justification for why opposed cults might work together, I'm not against the animosity rules, but I don't really see a need for them. Plus, if they're not in the Daemon book, it doesn't make much sense to reintroduce them into the CSM book unless there's a long-term plan for the cross-cult animosities to be in the next Daemon book as well. As for justifying why opposed cults might work for each other - take an Undivided (or unmarked) Lord. The opposed cult units aren't working with each other so much as they're working for him.

Xandros
30-01-2011, 15:51
Raziel, I'll 1-up you on that twin-linked autocannon land raider: Land raider with 2 reaper autocannon in each sponson. Could also have a daemonic flamer like wind of chaos. Oh and. A meltacannon mounted on the front similar to what the Cestus has for blasting through any obstacle.

Something that I'm missing from chaos is ancient weapons, huge and exotic, firing blasts of warpflame or raw energy, daemons bound within shells and ensorcelled bombs.

Luthor's Shadow
30-01-2011, 17:22
I'm not a chaos marine player - but from a neutral designer POV. I would personally do the following :

* I'd add traitor-guardsmen, mutants, Zombies and especially cultists.

* I'd give each legion a unique unit (like say how Blood angels have sanguinary guard for example).

* More special characters (at least 1 for each legion who doesnt have one already). I'd also give a few new characters for renegade-chapters (for that matter, id make "better" new chaos chapter examples, most of the ones in the last book were terrible!)

* Generic Legion HQ's. Each of these would work like a character that opens up specific builds but is more flexible and has more options. I.e. Taking a Night Lords HQ allows you to take a Night Lords specific unit and changes stats/Force Og ect. This maybe a good way to make legions more true to the fluff.

* Modelwise, id give them upgrade kits for legions, a plastic dread, plastic oblits, plastic raptors and various metal blisters/boxsets.

I do agree with the need for plastic models and your idea for unique units for individual legions (I would love to see a unit choice to create a Dark Apostle (or make it a 'Chaos Chaplain' and then have a further up-grade that creates your army into a Word Bearer) but I do not agree with adding the traitor Guard/Cultists unless GW gives me the option of both daemonic units and traitor guardsmen.

The issue with this is now we have Codex Chaos Daemons and it was meant to seperate the two (horrible idea, but great for marketing!) from each other. Personally GW should create a seperate codex for Codex Chaos Armies with perhaps the ability to take CSM as a single 0-1 Elite Choice and possibly a Daemonic Unit as the 0-1. However, that is a different topic in itself.


Daemonic Gifts - my knee jerk reaction is "Oh hell no!" My more considered reaction is maybe, but nowhere near as widespread as they were in 3.5. I could see giving them to Daemon Princes, since they don't get wargear, and Possessed would be a good candidate as well for the same reason. However, no entry should get access to both wargear and daemonic gifts. That was one of the hella broken things about 3.5, and I really don't want to see it come back.

The idea with Daemonic Gifts is to make them Lord, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer and MAYBE some smaller powered gifts for Possessed. I do not believe an Aspiring Champion would be gifted yet and Chosen can have wargear choices. Perhaps split chosen into two types: 'Veterans' and 'Cult Chosen' which could allow for a nutcracker unit with five meltaguns and an infiltrating Rhino or would allow for Cult Chosen who recieve limited gifts of Chaos.

Bring back Chaos into the Chaos Codex I guess is the feeling overall. Spikey-Marines are cool, but give them a reason to be spikey other then:

'Today chaps we follow Tzeentch and tomorrow we'll follow Nurgle in the morning and then post-battle we'll switch to Slaanesh for the all-night partyfest ok? Good chaps. Now go kill them non-spikey marines as they are not cool liike you'

May Insanity Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

Edit: Cheers Inach, glad my ramblings made your day :)

Inach
30-01-2011, 23:03
Today chaps we follow Tzeentch and tomorrow we'll follow Nurgle in the morning and then post-battle we'll switch to Slaanesh for the all-night partyfest ok? Good chaps. Now go kill them non-spikey marines as they are not cool liike you

You just made my day! (just stole it as sig :D)

Grand Master Raziel
31-01-2011, 01:46
The idea with Daemonic Gifts is to make them Lord, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer and MAYBE some smaller powered gifts for Possessed.

Won't work. It'll be nigh-unto-impossible to balance correctly. The effectiveness and therefore correct price of weapons and wargear varies widely depending on the stats of the bearer, and what daemonic gifts used to do is alter those stats. Take a simple power weapon, for instance. By and large, power weapons have cost 15pts for MEQ ICs since 3rd edition. However, that power weapon is way more effective if the bearer is S5 than it is if he's S4. Okay, so it could be argued the cost of the Gift covers that, but then you have to consider it's effect if the bearer is armed with a power weapon, lightening claws, power fist, or a daemon weapon. What the gift ought to cost is going to be different for each of those weapons. That's just one example with one gift. The more gifts you include, the greater the complexity of trying to balance the ability to take both gifts and wargear. It didn't work in 3.5 - it led to horrendous abuse. That's why I'm saying it should be restricted to units that don't get wargear - hence the Daemon Prince and Possessed. The Daemon Prince gets gifts to compensate for not having access to wargear, and Possessed get gifts to replace the random table everyone seems to hate so much.


Bring back Chaos into the Chaos Codex I guess is the feeling overall.

I'm really not convinced adding another set of buffing options constitutes "chaos". I think what's a lot more likely to happen is that one option or combo of options is going to stand out as the most cost-effective, and everyone's Chaos army will wind up including it.

Griffindale
31-01-2011, 03:02
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding Luthor's Shadow, but am I correct in thinking that you are criticizing Chaos Marines for not being loyal enough? :confused:

I'm glad this thread seems to be fairly controlled and not the whinefest I remember some of these threads to be. I would be interested in a chaos army sometime in the future.

Born Again
31-01-2011, 03:09
I'm not a chaos marine player - but from a neutral designer POV. I would personally do the following :

* I'd add traitor-guardsmen, mutants, Zombies and especially cultists.

* I'd give each legion a unique unit (like say how Blood angels have sanguinary guard for example).

* More special characters (at least 1 for each legion who doesnt have one already). I'd also give a few new characters for renegade-chapters (for that matter, id make "better" new chaos chapter examples, most of the ones in the last book were terrible!)

* Generic Legion HQ's. Each of these would work like a character that opens up specific builds but is more flexible and has more options. I.e. Taking a Night Lords HQ allows you to take a Night Lords specific unit and changes stats/Force Og ect. This maybe a good way to make legions more true to the fluff.


WOW. That is going to be one packed out book. You're proposing adding AT LEAST and extra 23 units to the book? Plus what's already in there, that's a total of 54 units in the codex. Now, I'm all for choice, but I think that might be going a little overkill there. You'd also need to come up with something pretty significant to differ and Alpha Legion unit from a Night Lords unit, and so on.



Bring back Chaos into the Chaos Codex I guess is the feeling overall. Spikey-Marines are cool, but give them a reason to be spikey other then:

'Today chaps we follow Tzeentch and tomorrow we'll follow Nurgle in the morning and then post-battle we'll switch to Slaanesh for the all-night partyfest ok? Good chaps. Now go kill them non-spikey marines as they are not cool liike you'


If I've missed something important here point me in the right direction, but I'm not away of any fluff that indicates Chaos Marines jump around between patrons willy-nilly, another case of people using ridiculous amounts of hyperbole to justify their arguments.

kane40k
31-01-2011, 11:45
(EDIT: In response to Luthor's Shadow...)


It's only perceived as a shortcut. You come to feel powerful, but in reality you're not in control. You may be succesful in society, but only because you're doing what your surroundings expect of you. You may make friends if you do not show your true self. You take the easy path, but it will only make you weaker in the end. Blind faith forged you into a powerful force, but you were never given a choice. Others chose for you, thrust this upon you, brought this upon themselves. You are become vengeance, the pain inflicted upon you shall be returned a hundred-thousand fold. You now know true power, as ancient as time itself. It has many names. And cannot be opposed. Should not. They will never understand. Your destiny is a god, powerful beyond imagining, and this power is yours to unleash, unrestrained by compassion or reason. Free.

Celebrate your freedom. Revel in the sins that are forbidden to lesser men.

@ Xandros: Spoken like a True Herald of the Gods

Seriously i wouldnt mind if they just Flipped the clock back to the last edition... although id like a mix of that and some of the new goodies.. i mean fliers and stuff.. :) Nasty old psychic powers and an abaddon that feels like the Chosen of Chaos.... who CAN despoil worlds... not get cained by some jumped up space vampire with blond hair and Facist Attitude. . . you know who im refering to right...

jack da greenskin
31-01-2011, 12:11
If I was re-writing, I'd combine CSM and CD. and even add in a few renegade guard units. But the current "lesser generic daemon" entry is incredibly lackluster, and gives me no incentive to buy Ł60's worth of plaguebearers when two boxes of bloodletters would do the same thing. More customisable unit entries, or atleast not just "these are plaguemarines. These are thousand sons", so it's possible to make an entire army dedicated to nurgle, or tzeentch or something.

Korraz
31-01-2011, 12:38
(EDIT: In response to Luthor's Shadow...)


It's only perceived as a shortcut. You come to feel powerful, but in reality you're not in control. You may be succesful in society, but only because you're doing what your surroundings expect of you. You may make friends if you do not show your true self. You take the easy path, but it will only make you weaker in the end. Blind faith forged you into a powerful force, but you were never given a choice. Others chose for you, thrust this upon you, brought this upon themselves. You are become vengeance, the pain inflicted upon you shall be returned a hundred-thousand fold. You now know true power, as ancient as time itself. It has many names. And cannot be opposed. Should not. They will never understand. Your destiny is a god, powerful beyond imagining, and this power is yours to unleash, unrestrained by compassion or reason. Free.

Celebrate your freedom. Revel in the sins that are forbidden to lesser men.

So you exchange the chains of society for the change of a "god", with the added benifit of certain and very real, never-ending torment after death. Oh, and you can't make any choices any more, at all. And the "god" might kill you if you don't obey him a single time, or think about not obeying, or obey him or he might do it for the lulz. I'll stick to my corspe-onna-throne and humanity if you don't mind, thank you very much. :D


Demons, CSM and Lost and Damned belong into one dex. Seriously, it can't be that hard. Lost and Damned don't even need models, just throw the fans a bone and include rules for humans and a renegade chimera and Russ. Give them BS2 to represent that most are neither trained soldiers, nor very bright, and done.
Regarding choices: It should be somewhere in between 3.5 and 4.0. 3.5 needed trimming, badly. 80% of the gifts were never, ever picked. Bring back some more choices, but make them worthwile. Make marks buyable for ever unit and a little more diverse, some with icons.
You don't even need special rules for Apostles or Warsmiths if the HQ has enough options.

Oh, and make CSM more expensive. CSM are even more rare than regular Marines. If you want mass, you've got cultists.

Dark Primus
31-01-2011, 13:18
When it comes to Daemon Prince I would want the DP's of different marks have totally different stat lines and each be given a list of Daemonic Gifts abilities that allows to boost them up from medium powerful to slightly above powerful monsterous creatures but each in their own way.


Khorne DP mindless brute force powers, strength, large number of attacks and ability to choose different weapons like the Death Strike whip from the Daemon Codex but also Daemon Weapons to add to his abilities, Axe of Khorne, Dark Blade etc etc. Should also have access to Furious Charge like all other Khorne followers.

Tzeentch DP should be a Master of deceiving and illusional powers and not just simple firepower as the Bolt of Tzeenth, Daemonic Gaze, Breath of Chaos etc etc.

Slaanesh DP special CC unit but not the brute force like the Khorne DP but with high initiative, large number of attacks weaker in strength compare to the Khorne DP. Should have some nasty CC special rules and some nasty psychic powers that makes his CC abilities even nastier.

Nurgle DP great endurance, can soak up a lot of firepower and not taking wounds, should also have Feel no Pain.

aka_mythos
31-01-2011, 13:46
Some of this is what I'd like and some just what I think we'll get:
-Chaos Lord rewritten as "Chaos Champion" with upgradeable "titles": Lord, Arch-heretic, Dark Apostle, Warsmith.
-God-cult marines elite... "troop" standing tied to Lord taking a god cpecific Mark
-Cultists with upgrades based on their "sin"... Traitor, mutant, etc.
-A fast attack choice in the vein of hellhound or stalk tank to support cultists
-A new daemon engine, in the fast attack category, in the vein of Blood Slaughterer or Blight Drone
-Chosen improved beyond just being able to choose from every weapon.
-Summoned daemons with Marks... not as good as "Chaos Daemons" but distinguishable flavors.
-Dreadnought rewritten so its less "unpredictable" and just "inconsistently good"
-Dreadclaw added
-Hellblade added

Otherwise we should just have more variety to what we have... like summoned daemons with marks or more gifts of chaos.

I think when it comes to gifts of chaos instead of more god specific ones, just make a good number of worthwhile generic ones and put restrictions preventing specific god followers from taking those that don't fit.

streetsamurai
31-01-2011, 16:35
If Icould only make one change to CSM, it would be to include cultist.

It's a shame that theyre such an important part of the background, yet,there's no way to field them

Erwos
31-01-2011, 16:47
A good FA choice with strong anti-tank would go pretty far.

But, honestly, we've been down this road, so I'll just post up a design of CSMs that most people seemed to think was workable in a broad sense: you have traitor guard and cultists on the table, and then daemons and CSMs teleport in and attack (teleporting troops would get some sort of reserves control to reflect Chaos mastery of the warp). Legionaries would be their own unit, and SCs/variant lists would replace the generic version (Black Legion / warband) Legionaries with more specific variants (recent renegades could take more recent gear, Iron Warriors might get tank hunters, etc.).

There was also talk of using GDs, DPs, Defilers, (a new FA choice), and Dreads to do a Chaoszilla list, and also just a plain old mechanized attack by amping up Havoc Launchers a bit. You could do all of this (including the design in the previous paragraph) with one list pretty effectively.

Lord Inquisitor
31-01-2011, 16:57
Agreed, The codex very much needs a generic cultist option. More daemonic engines, more options (e.g. terminator armour) for cult troops.

As far as gifts go, while I agree that we could do with more upgrades (servo arms, combat drugs) in moderation and that gifts are indeed missing from the codex, the "pick and choose" system from 3.5 was awful. Indeed warriors of chaos do this very well with the eye of the gods table. Lots of mutations, but not something you can cherry-pick.

Then units or items that are meant to be chaos mutant freakshow (eg possessed) can get one or more automatic rolls on the table like chosen in WFB. Indeed, chosen in 40k could do with it to make them a bit more impressive. Then your characters can gain the mutation upgrades and represent the attention of the gods - but you have to earn it!

Castigator
31-01-2011, 17:16
I think people get far to caught up with the "Chaos" in Chaos Space Marines, and not enough with the Space Marines.

Love em or hate em, Chaos Space Marines are not Warriors or Beasts of Chaos. They are not about Daemons. They are not about Cultists. They are not about uniform-colour-Mono-God-Lists (the most un-chaosy way to play Chaos in the first place IMO.. as the very word "mono" should give you the hint that you're doing it wrong).

Chaos Space Marines are meant to represent the dark mirror/twin to the loyalist Space Marines. The war in heaven, brother against brother, etc.. . Moreover, the time to play in is also 40K, not 30K, so the focus should be accordingly. Give reference to the Legions, but don't slave the game-design to them. The Horus Heresy Legions are a background-factor, not the driving element of "contemporary" Chaos Space Marines in all cases.


Splitting the Daemons out for the Daemon fans was one of the best decisions IMO, and generic Daemons serve precisely the purpose they need to serve, adding some fluff-tie in without taking lots of space or stealing the limelight from the Chaos Marines.

I'd love to see some "fickle-favour-of-the-gods" type of rules return, modelled along the lines of Space Wolves Saga, current Possessed/CSM Dreadnought rules, Fantasy equivalents.

But Cultists, God-specific daemons, etc.. . I think those should go elsewhere (and as in Daemons, are already elsewhere as they should be).

aka_mythos
31-01-2011, 17:46
Agreed, The codex very much needs a generic cultist option. More daemonic engines, more options (e.g. terminator armour) for cult troops. Given the limitations of space in the codex, as opposed to leaving them out completely do you think it is adequete to simply make terminator armor an upgrade option for Cult-marines, leaving out any other upgrades beyond what their basic unit can take as upgrades?



Then units or items that are meant to be chaos mutant freakshow (eg possessed) can get one or more automatic rolls on the table like chosen in WFB. Indeed, chosen in 40k could do with it to make them a bit more impressive. Then your characters can gain the mutation upgrades and represent the attention of the gods - but you have to earn it!
I think the whole "mutation" aspect of chaos needs to be fixed. Across the army there are a number of units that have either been subjected to it or should show signs of it. The way its handeled should be a more consistent mechanic. Mutants, Possessed, and Spawn are all subjects of Chaos' physical corruption. With the acception of characters, I think most would accept that there should be some randomness involved. Spawn have varying number of attacks and random movement and possessed have these different effects USR and stat effects. Possess fail because the randomness varies their role making it extremely difficult to possition them at the start. Possessed fail because they're over priced mostly due to an armor save of "flaccid."

I think somewhere between that lies where we actually should see these three units. A balancing act between consistent usefullness and inconsistent benefit. I think first GW needs to establish the roles of these units, make them excel in that way, and then add the rules that vary mutation.



I'd love to see some "fickle-favour-of-the-gods" type of rules return, modelled along the lines of Space Wolves Saga, current Possessed/CSM Dreadnought rules, Fantasy equivalents.
I think beyond the fact people dislike those units for that exact reason... one of GW's biggest sins with these units here and in other lists is there tendency to price these units as if the random occurance was always the best one rather than the break even it tends to be. From a balancing stand point, if there is a rule, like with enhanced warriors that on average wipes out 1/3 of itself the unit should come close to costing that much less than it otherwise would.

This mechanic has been largely removed from other armies in favor of rules that are inconsistently good, rather than unpredicatble.

Lord Inquisitor
31-01-2011, 18:00
But Cultists, God-specific daemons, etc.. . I think those should go elsewhere (and as in Daemons, are already elsewhere as they should be).

A single squad of generic cultists is requires for much the same reasons that the lesser summoned daemon pack is. While I do agree that broadly speaking, yeah, the daemons were right to be split off, if there were no daemons at all in the chaos book I would have been most put out. A single unit of generic daemons are required as a minimum to preserve the daemon gribbliness. I don't want to see return to god-specific daemons either but that doesn't mean we don't need daemons or cultists.

Cultists are needed to:
- Enhance the appearance of the superhuman power of the space marines
- Allow for alpha legion players to use their models
- Show that the Chaos Marines claim dominion over lesser humans, unlike loyalists (well, apart from Ultramarines ;)) and the contempt they have for human life
- Represent that the Chaos Legions actually go to war with a huge armies of cultists and mutants and heretics without taking focus away from the CSM
- Show the insidious call of chaos

A single unit which doesn't count to FOC like Daemons with limited upgrades would achieve all this.

As for wanting the focus to be on the "Space Marine" part of "Chaos Space Marine" I think you're fairly alone on that front. While this is nice from a background perspective, from a tabletop battle game, it's nice when the armies are distinctive. A renegade Space Marine force might look and function identically to a loyalist one - but that's pretty boring on the tabletop. It's another Space Marine army. The difference is the paint job. Why do we need a Codex Chaos Space Marines at all?

I think there's plenty of Space Marineness in the CSM. Indeed, I want to see more divergance, more Chaos. More Daemon engines, more possession, more freakshow units.


Given the limitations of space in the codex, as opposed to leaving them out completely do you think it is adequete to simply make terminator armor an upgrade option for Cult-marines, leaving out any other upgrades beyond what their basic unit can take as upgrades?
Yes. So you could say that Noise Marines could take Terminator armour for +X points (but the squad becomes Elite), bikes for +X points (but the squad becomes Fast Attack) or up to four blastmasters (but the squad becomes Heavy Support).

While this would require a degree more space, it should be doable.


I think the whole "mutation" aspect of chaos needs to be fixed. Across the army there are a number of units that have either been subjected to it or should show signs of it. The way its handeled should be a more consistent mechanic. Mutants, Possessed, and Spawn are all subjects of Chaos' physical corruption. With the acception of characters, I think most would accept that there should be some randomness involved. Spawn have varying number of attacks and random movement and possessed have these different effects USR and stat effects. Possess fail because the randomness varies their role making it extremely difficult to possition them at the start. Possessed fail because they're over priced mostly due to an armor save of "flaccid."
As I said before, make a single "eye of the gods" table. Then build the Possessed, Chosen and so on so they are functional units, then give them "something extra" as a free roll on the table.

Erwos
31-01-2011, 18:06
I think people get far to caught up with the "Chaos" in Chaos Space Marines, and not enough with the Space Marines.

They are not about Daemons.
Every Chaos list has included daemons since 2E (and possibly before). This is, at best, an opinion unsupported by history and fluff.


They are not about uniform-colour-Mono-God-Lists (the most un-chaosy way to play Chaos in the first place IMO.. as the very word "mono" should give you the hint that you're doing it wrong).
I think you're overplaying this. GW has shown off many mono-cult builds in the past. Heck, I think there was a Nurgle build on the back cover of the Apoc Reloaded book. I would say it's not EXCLUSIVELY about mono-cult builds, but denying their place is, again, an opinion unsupported by history or fluff.

I can say with some certainty that what originally attracted me to Chaos was Nurgle and beastmen. (You can imagine my dismay with 3rd edition.)

aka_mythos
31-01-2011, 18:46
A single [cultist] unit which doesn't count to FOC like Daemons with limited upgrades would achieve all this.
...
Yes. So you could say that Noise Marines could take Terminator armour for +X points (but the squad becomes Elite), bikes for +X points (but the squad becomes Fast Attack) or up to four blastmasters (but the squad becomes Heavy Support).

I think cultist are a bare minimum. Traitors and mutants, despite not being based in Codex Chaos Space Marine I think could contribute as much to the flavor and I think once you've established the framework needed to make cultists viable you end up with something that either needs traitors or mutants or easily lends itself to their inclusion.
...
I guess this is what I was really getting at. I'm extremely concerned with the idea of having too many units out of single unit entry. Having a terminator upgrade option is one thing but when you have the others as well, its overkill. You're talking about the effective addition of a good number of units that are unsupported by models and would each need distinctive kits. While I believe simple add-on sprues could be made I think it puts too great an emphasis on those cult-units while still continuing the trend of diluted effort given to Chaos kits instead of dedicated plastic kits. I would almost want GW to revise the fluff and choose only one maybe two "upgraded" versions of each and not necessarily doing everything for all four cults.

aka_mythos
31-01-2011, 18:52
I think people get far to caught up with the "Chaos" in Chaos Space Marines, and not enough with the Space Marines.
With the ever growing number of marine armies, Chaos has to fight that much harder to remain distinctive from the other. Rather than play the "marine" game and try out marine every other marine army. Its alot easier to accentuate the thing that makes Chaos marines distinctive. They aren't Imperial loyalist. They don't rely on the same technologies, but instead have access to something that is in its own way better, daemons; not just in the form of summoned daemons, but daemon engines, daemon weapons, possessed, and obliterators. Most Chaos players prefer this over Chaos versions of every imperial vehicle.

Lord Inquisitor
31-01-2011, 19:14
I think cultist are a bare minimum. Traitors and mutants, despite not being based in Codex Chaos Space Marine I think could contribute as much to the flavor and I think once you've established the framework needed to make cultists viable you end up with something that either needs traitors or mutants or easily lends itself to their inclusion.
Meh, I don't think cultists and traitors are different enough to warrant seperate entries and again - if you did want to make them distinct that's really the place of a LatD codex, which GW seem reluctant to go ahead with. Mutants could be an upgrade for cultists, pay X points and get a roll on the Eye of the Gods table, for example.


I guess this is what I was really getting at. I'm extremely concerned with the idea of having too many units out of single unit entry. Having a terminator upgrade option is one thing but when you have the others as well, its overkill. You're talking about the effective addition of a good number of units that are unsupported by models and would each need distinctive kits.
Understood. You are right, that is good codex design philosophy, and I have accepted the loss of my cult units in the interest of streamlined design and playtesting. I still think cult terminators are a minimum really and a huge area of dissatisfaction with the current 'dex. That was a dropped ball there.

Thing is, when 5th edition came around, any attempt to streamline or playtest properly went out the window. If Space Wolves and Blood Angels have everything but the kitchen sink, then yeah, I'd like my noise marine bikers back please.

aka_mythos
31-01-2011, 19:28
As another topic of discussion, in 5th edtion, we have seen non-HQ unit enhancing special characters come into the game; those characters like Harker or Telion who while in and unto themselve are worthwhile alter the use and capabilities of their unit. Are there any good opportunities for this with chaos?


Meh, I don't think cultists and traitors are different enough to warrant seperate entries and again - if you did want to make them distinct that's really the place of a LatD codex, which GW seem reluctant to go ahead with. Mutants could be an upgrade for cultists, pay X points and get a roll on the Eye of the Gods table, for example.
...
Thing is, when 5th edition came around, any attempt to streamline or playtest properly went out the window. If Space Wolves and Blood Angels have everything but the kitchen sink, then yeah, I'd like my noise marine bikers back please.
In 5th its is the case that GW's really gone with a volume of units. With cultists I see traitors/mutants... being similar to how the IG codex handles veterans and stormtroopers who have these mission profiles. The distinction between cultist/traitor/mutant would be much the same, with each providing a minor variation to the same degree as those Imperial units.

With cult marines, I think there is room to have more variaty, terminators being an example. I believe though that GW should consider the more characterful possibility of not making them identical options, say where Noise marines have the bike option instead of the terminator option.

Caitsidhe
31-01-2011, 19:44
I'd just be happy if they:

1. Brought down our costs to be more in line with the reductions everyone else has gotten. We pay far too much for a lot of things (including things which are inferior).

2. Give Oblits a Toughness-5 and/or 4+ Invulnerable save.

3. Allow us to give a mark to our Lesser Demons and/or Greater Demons.

4. Give us our damn Drop Pod. I would actually use our crappy Dreadnaughts if I could drop pod them.

Sythica
31-01-2011, 20:11
Like Fantasy, I think Chaos (one of the defining elements of the intellectual property), should be treated to 3 books:

1. Codex: Traitor Legions
2. Codex: Chaos Renegades
3. Codex: Chaos Daemons

C:TL would be to address the Legions from the Horus Heresy. These are the guys that are still plotting to overthrow the Emperor, and have had 10,000 years to come up with a better plan than the first time. A direct relationship with the Chaos gods is appropriate here (ie daemon princes, mono-god armies with non-generic daemons).

C:CR would be the forces that have fallen to Chaos more recently. Huron belongs here, as part of a re-worked Lost and the Damned list. Marines would have access to more modern equipment, and would be able to field sacrificial corrupted Guard units. No daemon princes, only generic lesser daemons. Chaos can be more fickle with these guys than the Traitor Legions (ie more randomness).

C:CD would be much the same, with a few more daemon engines to 40k-ify the army.

However, strange as it may sound, I think we should be looking at the next O&G army book for clues as to the possibilities for Chaos. GW is promising something completely different with 8th edition army books. A list like O&G includes a lot of significantly different builds. My suspicion is that we won’t see 40k Chaos until 6th edition, and perhaps Fantasy will show us if it will be worth the wait. I don’t think it is possible to cram Chaos (even the first two choices above) into one codex using the existing format.

Jind_Singh
31-01-2011, 20:13
They should call the new book 'Legions of Chaos' and let the main focus be on:

1) Original traitor legion specific rules/list options
2) Addition of cultists - would be a troop choice, whether it counts to FOC is 50/50 - pros and cons to both, but allow for icons, and give them limited wargear options (essentially renegade Gaurdsmen, zombie type units)
3) Addition of chaos gifts - but this would need to be handled well - someone mentions allowing them for Daemon Princes but be wary with IC - that's a great idea as it will limit abuse
4) More special characters - we're bored of the current lot - with the fantastic back ground of the HH books there are a ton I'd love to see in the new army book!
5) More Daemon engines! Yes please!

And of course a whole bunch of new models to replace some of the junk we have such as plastic Raptors, Dreadnoughts, etc.

Not so worried about marking the lesser/greater daemons as such, but then they (GW) should look at having models for them - 10 plastic generic daemons - which wont happen!

The reason being that the actual daemon types have their rules in their own book - so it would be pointless to repeat them - the summoned daemons HAVE to be generic as otherwise who would want to play the Daemons army book?

Wouldn't make sense!

Discord
31-01-2011, 20:42
I want this to go on record first, I am happy with the current Chaos Codex how it allows for a variety of different armies with comprehensible unit choices and tactics can be born that were not available in the previous version. However, the current Chaos Codex lacks a few things.


Some type of Daemonic Gift would be preferable. Even if its not the previous version, just let us have toys to show love from the Chaos Gods...


Agreed, The codex very much needs a generic cultist option. More daemonic engines, more options (e.g. terminator armour) for cult troops.

You know, if you insist on making page-long posts with colours like that, any good points brought up will be lost by people not wanting to strain their eyes to read them.

Vedar
31-01-2011, 20:59
Daemon Princes need to be scary again. T5 4++ or T6 5++ does not cut the mustard. I don't care if they need to raise the points up to 200+, but my Daemon Princes are always the first to die. So I keep them cheap and use them to distract while my army moves up. This "works" but it is pretty lame that I have to use Daemon Princes to draw fire so that the rest of my army can get into position.

Deamon Princes need to be able to live past turn 3, options for 3++, T6 as standard. We used to be able to hide them better or consolidate into a new unit. Now they just hang out in the breeze with a sign on them that says shoot me.

Okuto
31-01-2011, 21:35
My Wish list:

-Traitor Guardsmen/mutants: I have a latd army thats useless oh and id I mention I have lots of useless cultists!
-Legion rules: Seriously I had to switch my Alpha Legion to Black legion.....
-Fluff choices: nurgle working with Tzeentch?! whats this madness, so I get no benefits for playing a fluffy list now.....
-Uniqueness: Our book is very generic.....I miss the old book full of goodies.....
-Possessed: I use to love this guys now they suck yet you shove them into all the battalion boxes!
-Daemons: They feel so plain.....and generic like everything else in our book

DuskRaider
31-01-2011, 22:24
I think people get far to caught up with the "Chaos" in Chaos Space Marines, and not enough with the Space Marines.

Love em or hate em, Chaos Space Marines are not Warriors or Beasts of Chaos. They are not about Daemons. They are not about Cultists. They are not about uniform-colour-Mono-God-Lists (the most un-chaosy way to play Chaos in the first place IMO.. as the very word "mono" should give you the hint that you're doing it wrong).

Chaos Space Marines are meant to represent the dark mirror/twin to the loyalist Space Marines. The war in heaven, brother against brother, etc.. . Moreover, the time to play in is also 40K, not 30K, so the focus should be accordingly. Give reference to the Legions, but don't slave the game-design to them. The Horus Heresy Legions are a background-factor, not the driving element of "contemporary" Chaos Space Marines in all cases.


Splitting the Daemons out for the Daemon fans was one of the best decisions IMO, and generic Daemons serve precisely the purpose they need to serve, adding some fluff-tie in without taking lots of space or stealing the limelight from the Chaos Marines.

I'd love to see some "fickle-favour-of-the-gods" type of rules return, modelled along the lines of Space Wolves Saga, current Possessed/CSM Dreadnought rules, Fantasy equivalents.

But Cultists, God-specific daemons, etc.. . I think those should go elsewhere (and as in Daemons, are already elsewhere as they should be).

Man, I'm so glad your opinion is in the minority... why don't we just make Chaos "edgy Loyalists" then? Legions are what make Chaos Marines, you take them out and you lose what Chaos Marines really are. They're the ancient enemy, the hidden shame of the Imperium's failure. They have more justification of being the main focus of any Chaos Marines book than any "contemporary Traitors", which would simply be Codex: Space Marines, only more EVIL.

Taking Daemons out of the codex was one of the worst decisions when it came to this book (one of them, definitely not the only one). If we did as you say, Chaos Marines would literally be spikey Loyalists, and in that case we have Flesh Tearers and such, so we don't even need Chaos!

Caitsidhe
31-01-2011, 22:29
I could care less about the fluff. I don't care if CSM are more demony or more jarhead marine. I am souless and play this game as a tactical strategy game. I learn my codex and the rules. I don't care about the fluff, and thus I am not torn with angst about how they represent. All I care about is what they can do and whether or not it is equitable for the costs. I would be fine with the current codex if they fixed our prices and made one or two tweaks. Overall we have an excellent codex that can build all sorts of solid, competitive armies. I would likewise be fine with a new codex that took us an entirely new direction AS LONG as it was balanced.

Mr. Ultra
31-01-2011, 22:29
You know, if you insist on making page-long posts with colours like that, any good points brought up will be lost by people not wanting to strain their eyes to read them.

Totally agree. Only reading Lord Inquisitor posts are burning my eyes (maybe it's his evil intention from the begining :shifty:).

Entering in the evergreen wishlisting fields, I'd support:

- A way to make cult armies; If I buy a Death Guard Lord, it's a Death Guard Lord with Feel no pain, plague grenades and all the stuff, and not a booooring generic Chaos Lord with R5.

- More deamonic engines and chaotic only vehicles and warmachines. Maybe a Chaos drop pod entry (dreadclaw it is?).

- The return of the marked daemons, and by gods sake, I want my Nurglings back!!

- Make the characters in the same way the SM and IG characters are designed lately: i.e., with the inclusion of Khârn all the Berserker units gain some extra straits or something, you understand me (it's late and English isn't my mother language).

- And please, please, please: new plastic units!!!! Plastic upgrade kits for the main Legions, decent Plague Marines at last, new Berserkers with scaled hands, plastic raptors of epicness etc etc etc.

Okuto
31-01-2011, 22:31
Totally agree. Only reading Lord Inquisitor posts are burning my eyes (maybe it's his evil intention from the begining :shifty:).

Entering in the evergreen wishlisting fields, I'd support:

- A way to make cult armies; If I buy a Death Guard Lord, it's a Death Guard Lord with Feel no pain, plague grenades and all the stuff, and not a booooring generic Chaos Lord with R5.

- More deamonic engines and chaotic only vehicles and warmachines. Maybe a Chaos drop pod entry (dreadclaw it is?).

- The return of the marked daemons, and by gods sake, I want my Nurglings back!!

- Make the characters in the same way the SM and IG characters are designed lately: i.e., with the inclusion of Khârn all the Berserker units gain some extra straits or something, you understand me (it's late and English isn't my mother language).

- And please, please, please: new plastic units!!!! Plastic upgrade kits for the main Legions, decent Plague Marines at last, new Berserkers with scaled hands, plastic raptors of epicness etc etc etc.

I want my nurglings back too! Those suckers were sooooo useful

Garanaul the Black
01-02-2011, 00:42
- Chaos sorcerer (together with Eldar psykers) are about the strongest Psykers fluffwise, give them ways to cast spells even though Psychic Hoods are around.




Agreed. I always envisioned Chaos Sorcerers being so infused with Warp Energy (Tzeentch especially) to the point that it's dangerous to simply be around them. What about making enemies wishing to dispel the power have to re-roll a success and failure means having to make a Perils of the Warp test(s) representing being burnt by trying to stop so much power?

Additionally, I think the ability to buy 'demonic pacts' (rerolls to psychic tests or invulnerable saves?) would be both fluffy and further show their (borrowed) mastery of the Warp.



-Daemons: They feel so plain.....and generic like everything else in our book

Simply allowing them to take an icon would be a step in the right direction. I have all of these Plague Bearers with icons laying around but I assure you that has nothing to do with this suggestion. :cool:


G

Born Again
01-02-2011, 03:27
I could care less about the fluff. I don't care if CSM are more demony or more jarhead marine. I am souless and play this game as a tactical strategy game. I learn my codex and the rules. I don't care about the fluff, and thus I am not torn with angst about how they represent. All I care about is what they can do and whether or not it is equitable for the costs. I would be fine with the current codex if they fixed our prices and made one or two tweaks. Overall we have an excellent codex that can build all sorts of solid, competitive armies. I would likewise be fine with a new codex that took us an entirely new direction AS LONG as it was balanced.

Maybe you should take it over to the rules development forum then and crunch numbers. This is a general thread about ALL aspects of the Chaos Space Marine army, and if you outright state you don't care about the fluff and just want rules tailored to make competitive builds, you can't expect people to pay much attention to your thoughts on how to develop and build an army they DO care about.

Also, for the sake of your first sentence, you should watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw).

Mannimarco
01-02-2011, 03:59
I could care less about the fluff. I don't care if CSM are more demony or more jarhead marine. I am souless and play this game as a tactical strategy game. I learn my codex and the rules. I don't care about the fluff, and thus I am not torn with angst about how they represent.

Its the fluff that keeps a lot of people in the game, we're not here because its a tactical wargame with a solid rule set, not even close. Chaos has a rich tapestry of fluff stretching back many years, its a little sad that some want to throw all that away.

Have you considered FoW? A tactical game where you need to think and stratagise, screw that fluff crap who needs it?


Overall we have an excellent codex that can build all sorts of solid, competitive armies.

Except its not an excellent codex, its a poorly designed piece of crap that gutted almost everything that makes Chaos Chaos all in the name of streamlining. The monthly Chaos codex complaint and wishlist thread should attest to the fact that even after a few years there are very few who think this is even a passable codex let alone an "excellent" one.

Lets play a game, name 4 competitive list our "excellent" codex can produce. I'll even get you started: Twin prince HQ leading some plague marines and berserkers with obliterators as heavy support.


I would likewise be fine with a new codex that took us an entirely new direction AS LONG as it was balanced.

I too would be happy with a new book that takes us away from Chaos 4.0 as long as it was balanced but I fear our next book will be the most sickeningly overpowered mess on the market (at least until the next loyalist dex anyway) and we will be subjected to months of "heres my SW/BA/ultramarines led by Vulkan army who have turned renegade and use the Chaos dex, look it totally fits the theme of my army better".

My wishlist:

Straight transfer over of ALL the Chaos IA stuff. Want more characters? 3 of them already exist. Want more daemon engines? Already exist. Want a drop pod? Already exists. Want cultists? at least 4 different flavoured lists allowing you to play at least 3 Legions already exist.

shin'keiro
01-02-2011, 07:07
I think Daemons\Daemon princes should be removed from the Chaos Space Marine codex, so it is purely a Space Marine Renegade codex... perhaps adding Cultists, Minions, Slaves etc.

Leave Daemons\Daemon princes with the Daemon codex.

HQs can be gifted with Wargear gifts instead.. such as swords, cloaks, axes, helmets, powerful pistols\guns etc.

Valek
01-02-2011, 07:18
I think Daemons\Daemon princes should be removed from the Chaos Space Marine codex, so it is purely a Space Marine Renegade codex... perhaps adding Cultists, Minions, Slaves etc.

Leave Daemons\Daemon princes with the Daemon codex.

HQs can be gifted with Wargear gifts instead.. such as swords, cloaks, axes, helmets, powerful pistols\guns etc.

Hug, that would be blatantly stupid, after all all the legions primarchs became deamon primarchs, and wordbearers dump tons if in combat.

I would say:
- god deamons in place of the gray crap now, with some decent options
- terminator marks make cult terminators
- Deamonic possession redesigned to make use of marks and effects
- numbers of cult troops (6,7,8,9) give free champs
- 1 Deamons engine in heavy for every god
- Dread Claw Droppods
- Redesign dreadnoughts as they suck right now

And on a personal Tzeentch note:
- Thousand sons are ok but still lack for their points
- Ahriman is bull at this point value, should be a bit redesigned also

Griffindale
01-02-2011, 07:55
The only thing wrong with the chaos codex is that GW decided to drop the minimalist approach immediately after making it. Ofcourse, I doubt our chaos 'time of the month' threads would cease even if it had been that way, but if it had happened then it would be excellent. Its a good codex. Gav Thorpe and Allessio Cavatore did a fantastic job. Legions and renegades are well covered.

I personally can't wait for Robin Cruddace to work on the new chaos codex. He did an excellent job revamping IG and nids. If he gets it then I'll almost certainly start a small chaos strike force.

Minsc
01-02-2011, 10:59
I think Daemons\Daemon princes should be removed from the Chaos Space Marine codex, so it is purely a Space Marine Renegade codex... perhaps adding Cultists, Minions, Slaves etc.

Leave Daemons\Daemon princes with the Daemon codex.

*Chaos Lord Charley leads his CSM warband for 8000 years, slaying in the name of the Chaos Gods. Then suddenly when Charley decapitates a Ultramarine Chaptermaster his muscles starts swell, his intelligence increases, he feels tougher and he increases in size.
Charley has now achieved his primary goal for theese last 8000 years and ascended to daemonhood. Promptly Charley now tells his loyal subject's that's been following him for 8000 years: "Sorry guys, I'm done now. If you need me I'm in the Daemon codex".

No...just no.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 12:09
The only thing wrong with the chaos codex is that GW decided to drop the minimalist approach... I personally can't wait for Robin Cruddace to work on the new chaos codex. He did an excellent job revamping IG and nids. If he gets it then I'll almost certainly start a small chaos strike force. Well Robin Cruddace is certainly the antithesis to 40k minimalism... if he did our codex, we'd certainly have everything people have asked for... though he tends to have a bunch of inconsistencies and really goes to the brink of cheese for new units that are intended as the centerpiece of the army.

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2011, 14:50
The only thing wrong with the chaos codex is that GW decided to drop the minimalist approach immediately after making it. Ofcourse, I doubt our chaos 'time of the month' threads would cease even if it had been that way, but if it had happened then it would be excellent. Its a good codex. Gav Thorpe and Allessio Cavatore did a fantastic job. Legions and renegades are well covered.
Agreed. While there was a few things that could have been done better (a few points are off, it needs a generic cultist option and a few more iconic toys like servo arms are missing) but it is a well designed codex. I think if all the codecies were along the minimalist lines we'd have a much better game.


I personally can't wait for Robin Cruddace to work on the new chaos codex. He did an excellent job revamping IG and nids. If he gets it then I'll almost certainly start a small chaos strike force.
Urgh, those codecies epitomise what is wrong with the game. Sure, Codex: IG was powerful, maybe too powerful at release, but there's so much that's horribly underpowered. Stormtroopers and Ogryns got if anything worse. I played with the guard codex a bit when it came out and went back to my CSM because the sort of army I wanted - a freakshow LatD horde - just didn't work out very well and the army was fiddly and annoying to play. Far too many fiddly special rules. Tyranids hasn't been well-received by Nid players and is even worse in terms of learning curve. Trying to keep track of special rules, abilities and powers in a Nid army is headache-inducing.

Erwos
01-02-2011, 15:22
I think you're hammering Cruddace a little too hard for internal balance issues when like 2/3 of the CSM codex is generally considered mediocre to awful. Say what you will about the IG codex's issues, but I've got a lot of flexibility in every slot (sans elites). With the CSM codex, it's generally a binary choice if I'm trying to be purely competitive.

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2011, 15:47
I think you're hammering Cruddace a little too hard for internal balance issues when like 2/3 of the CSM codex is generally considered mediocre to awful. Say what you will about the IG codex's issues, but I've got a lot of flexibility in every slot (sans elites). With the CSM codex, it's generally a binary choice if I'm trying to be purely competitive.

The Guard codex also has vastly, vastly more units. Sure, it has more choices in the heavy support department ... but it has 14 choices! Chaos has only three real choices there (4 if you count land raiders), but that's only out of 6 choices! Not to mention some of the units (Possessed, Predators) were once competitive but got hammered by the edition change.

I don't deny that C:CSM has some internal balance issues. Lash/plague/oblit spam lists are proof of that - but that could be fixed with some simple points adjustments. I disagree that any of the 5e codecies really do better and Cruddace's lists are the worst. But internal balance is not the only thing to a well-made codex and I find the Guard and Nid lists overbloated, clunky and frustrating to play with and against.

But I'm on a familiar rant here and I should leave it there. ;) Suffice to say, I think much of the rubbish like thunderwolves and magna grapples and pointless special rules are not good for the game. But damn it, if everyone else is getting OP stuff, I want my toys too.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 15:54
The current book has issues with alot of its units. We have a good solid set of troop choices, obliterators and sometimes defilers are great, and we have a HQ choices that pretty decent. Beyond that most of the remaining are either "mediocre to aweful," as Erwos points out. The few not mentioned that are good only perform when you use them in a way they weren't intended... termicide. Why are almost all of Chaos' Elite veterans suicide units?-Yeah they might just be crazy enough, but they should be good enough to survive. The fast attack section is pretty much absent from the codex.

When it comes to Cruddace, I don't think his codices are bad. I play IG and some Nids. The "learning curve" comes for from the volume of choices... but if you stick to a typical list you don't have to worry too much about excess special rules. Some stuff in the book fails and some stuff boarders on cheese, but if you never take the unusable units, there enough other units to choose from that it doesn't matter.

Erwos
01-02-2011, 15:59
I don't deny that C:CSM has some internal balance issues. Lash/plague/oblit spam lists are proof of that - but that could be fixed with some simple points adjustments.
Yeah, but you can fix any codex with points adjustments. Trust me, if you priced IG Stormtroopers down to 10 points and Ogryns at 25 points, you'd see some real reshifting of units in IG armies. I'd argue that the problem the CSM codex has is even worse than this, because no amount of (sane) points changes will get us enough autocannons to stop razor spam or mech IG armies.

Here's a good rule of thumb: if a unit seems most competitive at MSU, it's, at best, average, and most likely in the mediocre-to-awful range.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 16:11
Yeah, but you can fix any codex with points adjustments. Trust me, if you priced IG Stormtroopers down to 10 points and Ogryns at 25 points, you'd see some real reshifting of units in IG armies. I'd argue that the problem the CSM codex has is even worse than this,... I think cost down would help, but I tend to agree that fixing Chaos' issues is more than just point adjustments of a few units. Every army to come out since 5th has was of getting around cover save and mitigating a number of other common rules that chaos doesn't. Chaos lost the ability to deal with a variaty of threats while the variaty of threats from a given army has grown.

_dandaman_
01-02-2011, 16:19
Personally, I would like to see all the god related troop choices (plague/noise marines ect.) made 0-1 choices unless you take a lord with the same mark (or abbadon, which lets you take all 4). I can't tell you how frustrating it is as a fluff bunny to see slaanesh daemon princes leading plague marines in rhinos, berzerkers in land raiders, and slaanesh terminators all in the same list.

One thing I would like to see as well is different icons/marks providing different abilities depending on the unit. It seems odd to me that chosen of slaanesh would get the same bonus from thier patron god as say plain CSM would.

Just my thought;

Dan

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2011, 16:26
The current book has issues with alot of its units. We have a good solid set of troop choices, obliterators and sometimes defilers are great, and we have a HQ choices that pretty decent. Beyond that most of the remaining are either "mediocre to aweful," as Erwos points out. The few not mentioned that are good only perform when you use them in a way they weren't intended... termicide. Why are almost all of Chaos' Elite veterans suicide units?-Yeah they might just be crazy enough, but they should be good enough to survive. The fast attack section is pretty much absent from the codex.
Well, that's one of the elements the Chaos codex doesn't do well, and one of the things I've been saying in these wishlist threads - I'd like to see Chosen as true Heresy-era badass nutters rather than just a unit that can take 4 special weapons.

Which is a very valid core design issue as these units got sort of left behind when the cult troops were nicely set apart.


When it comes to Cruddace, I don't think his codices are bad. I play IG and some Nids. The "learning curve" comes for from the volume of choices...
Not really. It's the special rules. The nid book averages over two unique special rules per unit. I picked up the Nid book to swot up before a tournament and I felt like I was revising for an exam. There's so, so much unnecessary rules faff. Prime example, gargoyles and their poisoned attacks. One, why do they need poisoned attacks? It's not part of their background, never has been. The models don't have stingers. There's no reason for it beyond special rules for the sake of special rules. Then to top it off, instead of using the established 40K mechanic for poisoned weapons they get the fantasy poisoned weapon rule as a unique rule. Urgh.


but if you stick to a typical list you don't have to worry too much about excess special rules. Some stuff in the book fails and some stuff boarders on cheese, but if you never take the unusable units, there enough other units to choose from that it doesn't matter.
You say that like that's a good thing? :eyebrows: "Yeah, we didn't test these units, but we made so many new units, there's bound to be some good ones in there."


Yeah, but you can fix any codex with points adjustments. Trust me, if you priced IG Stormtroopers down to 10 points and Ogryns at 25 points, you'd see some real reshifting of units in IG armies.
Yes. However, it is clear that the sheer number of units in the guard/nid armies meant that there was no way every combo could be tested and I suspect many units never hit the table at all e.g. vendetta, ogryns, stormtroopers. Especially stormtroopers. Surely anyone using them once would realise that an assault unit with 2 close combat weapons and AP3 rapid fire weapons was going to have an identity crisis...

However, every codex can't just be fixed with points adjustments. The nid codex is still an overcomplicated mess even if you balance the points like a razor. The Chaos codex however could be a really great codex with some adjustments.


Here's a good rule of thumb: if a unit seems most competitive at MSU, it's, at best, average, and most likely in the mediocre-to-awful range.
Wait, you mean like IG vet squads in chimera with hydra spam and vendettas? ;)

Erwos
01-02-2011, 17:15
Yes. However, it is clear that the sheer number of units in the guard/nid armies meant that there was no way every combo could be tested and I suspect many units never hit the table at all e.g. vendetta, ogryns, stormtroopers. Especially stormtroopers. Surely anyone using them once would realise that an assault unit with 2 close combat weapons and AP3 rapid fire weapons was going to have an identity crisis...
Storm troopers can actually take 2 specials. Their problem really is just costing. They would make terrific blockers if they weren't horribly expensive compared to vets.


However, every codex can't just be fixed with points adjustments. The nid codex is still an overcomplicated mess even if you balance the points like a razor. The Chaos codex however could be a really great codex with some adjustments.
I would like to hear how sane points adjustments would fix our lack of suppressive fire at S6/S7.


Wait, you mean like IG vet squads in chimera with hydra spam and vendettas? ;)
2/3 of those aren't taken at MSU, unless you think fixed number squads are MSUs (they're not in my mind). And you apparently also need to understand what "rule of thumb" means. And, by the way, your coloring of text makes it a real pain in the ass to quote you. Stop being a special snowflake and show some respect to the people trying to have a discussion with you. (Seriously, try quoting and responding to portions of your own posts just once to see what I mean.)

Luthor's Shadow
01-02-2011, 17:26
I've always typed in red text. If you choose not to read the post, then this is your choice.

I have to agree with a lot of the points being brought forth. Right now the codex works because yes it can produce 'balanced armies' and fight the good fight. However, its extremely lack on the fluff that made Chaos Space Marines.

A few people are saying they are not fussed with the current codex, well that's fine, but as a follower of the Chaos Creed, I am disgusted two Daemon Princes of Slaanesh would even want to be anywhere near Plague Marines with World Eaters and not have a single unit dedicated to Slaanesh. What did the orgininal Lords go: 'Hey you folks worship those gods to make you tougher and I'll worship Slaanesh to make me pretty?'

It makes no sense for the fluff we have come to love and respect. Also wouldn't it being smart to imply the Soul Forge, the creator of the Soulgrinders, would produce daemon engines for the Chaos Space Marines in exchange for souls? Hell it would be a mighty pact.

To help with the codex, it could be broken down into 'Pacts' from Daemon Pacts to God pacts and if your army takes a certain 'Pact' with a God, your army is loyal to them. This will then shape your army. I recall the choice of your patron Diety dictating your army and design. I would still like the flexibilty of the current codex, but that should be for 'Undivided' armies not God-Sepcific.

If GW could create and flex the difference between Chaos Legion Marines and Renegade Marines it would also be of use. Renegade armies are more wishy-washy with their alliegances to various Gods and to reflect this should have 0-1 on Possessed and maybe 0-1 on Cult Marines. However to make it appealing the army can have Icons that work like our current icons. Cult specific 'Legions' or 'armies' (who says all Plague Marines are Death Guard? All Khorne Bezerkers are World Eaters who undergo the psycho-surgery?) would have access to God-specific wargear and can access other God marks if their God is not opposite to them (Khorne/Slaanesh, Nurgle/Tzeentch).

Design the codex with the intention of giving options for either a Renegade army or a Cult Army being the first choice a player makes before delving deeper into the codex and making other choices. It gives your army a feel of how damned do you want to be? Do you want to be a full-on Chaos Space Marine army or do you want to be renegades who are tip-toeing the line?

May Insanity Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

Dvora
01-02-2011, 17:31
I agree with Luthor's shadow in that the way you choose gods in the current chaos codex is rather poor. It seems so cut and dry.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 17:32
Not really. It's the special rules... That was more of what I was trying to get at. That it isn't necessarily the individual instances of special rule... like gargoyles being reinvented with poison wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for the 15 other units similarly treated to new special rules.

You say that like that's a good thing? :eyebrows: "Yeah, we didn't test these units, but we made so many new units, there's bound to be some good ones in there.".
Let me expand on what I was trying to get at. I sincerely believe he designed the codex around the notion that most people would have an army of conventional units padded with only a few of these special rule inundated units. That such an army tends not to need to worry about so many rules. The further you move away from the intent of the author the less they can be held accountable.

GW in previous editions was hounded for not having more fluffy options. Their solution's been just adding interesting units to push the game in the less competitive direction that Apocalypse went with the game, presenting units that aren't that practical in 90% of standard games, like the Deathstrike. I just accept that some units are not intended to be practical and are present only as a matter of flavorful choice.

When you look at a codex those units are moot with respect to the competitiveness and thus really stand outside of a codex. That is fine as long as it doesn't get out of hand and the core of the codex allows for varied forms of competitive play. That distinction is where GW's failed, in neglecting the "core" in favor of just adding new units.

Obake123
01-02-2011, 17:57
The Fourth edition Chaos Codex was what got me back into the hobby when I found a copy in my local library.

I loved the space given to each of the traitor legions and the feel that I could make a truly themed army with some of the special rules and units and at a page a legion, it didn't turn the whole book into an overweight mess.

I also appreciated the way that choice of God limited one's army in certain cruical respects while strengthening it in others. Even if I chose not to take advantage of half the rules, they were there if I wanted new flavour or style for my army.

Now I feel that the whole codex is a dreadfully bland affair. HQ and troops are solid and allow potential to theme an army, but beyond that, the rest is cookie-cutter and lacks the small rules that could really define an army.

That, and the whole idea of the four Gods as a big happy family working together really gets me! It goes agaisnt the fluff from as far back as Rogue Trader!

Final -Fatal - Weakness is the inability to field an army that remotely resembles the Chaotic forces from the fluff. Where are my horses of gibbering mutants? My traitor guard with defiled guard uniforms?

Where is all the VARIETY?

A future Choas codex needs spice and variety. It needs GOd-specific rules (Not even many of them) to allow me to really twist my army into something iconic.

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 18:08
A few people are saying they are not fussed with the current codex, well that's fine, but as a follower of the Chaos Creed, I am disgusted two Daemon Princes of Slaanesh would even want to be anywhere near Plague Marines with World Eaters and not have a single unit dedicated to Slaanesh. What did the orgininal Lords go: 'Hey you folks worship those gods to make you tougher and I'll worship Slaanesh to make me pretty?'


I am sorry, but Slaanesh-units always fought alongside Nurgle-units and Followers of Khorne alongside those of Tzeentch, ever since the game (and Chaos fluff) was created.

People seem to deduce from the old "animosity-rules" that uniform mono-god/mono-legion rules were "the intend"/"the fluffy choice", but that is a fallacy IMO.

40K Chaos has always been about mixed armies; otherwise there wouldn't have been a point to those "animosity rules" in the first place. That, always, has been what made Chaos .. well "Chaos". One the one side, you had the more uniform (by a singular paint-job) and "disciplined" (as in they don't brawl with each other) Loyalist Marines, on the other side the infighting, rag-tag Chaos Marine Forces bringing in parts and bits from different cults and legions whose alliance may break down during the fight. THAT, is what made a fluffly Chaos army unique.

A mono-Khorne/World Eater or a uniform Nurgle-list is IMO missing the point. Those are just standard, uniform Marine lists with more skulls, simply swapping the "for the Emperor" to "for the Blood God". Yawn. Those add nothing new to the game "conceptually". These type of armies are IMO arguably be much, much better off using a Loyalist Dex (such as Khorne Wolves) as those tend to present the singular dedication to one ideal and a lack of infighting motley crew much better.

But for a "true" and "fluffy" Chaos Marine Army, you NEED bits and parts, Berserkers next to an Emperors Children Sorcerer and a Nurgle Daemon Prince leading a unit of Thousand Sons, perhaps once more with animosity rules (or similar things) to represent their rag-tag, un-disciplined, "big egos united by opportunism, rather than ideology" nature that makes capital "C" Chaos unique, distinct and.. for lack of a better word, "fluffy".

Placing the emphasis on Renegades over Legions (as isolated variant armies, rather than part of the greater whole) thus places a distinct emphasis on what makes Chaos Marines Chaos Marines and should be even more emphasised in a future Chaos Marine Dex.

Luthor's Shadow
01-02-2011, 18:19
I am sorry, but Slaanesh-units always fought alongside Nurgle-units and Followers of Khorne alongside those of Tzeentch, ever since the game (and Chaos fluff) was created.

What I was implying what type of background do you generate from that? Why did the original 'Champions' of Chaos choose to go Slaanesh when the rest of the army was following two other specific gods? I am saying you should have mixed Chaos God armies, but wouldn't it be best to imply that if take a Lord choice with a Mark there should at least be a mainstay rule? Similar to the Clanrats from Skaven?

It is perfectly acceptable for any of the Chaos Gods to be served. I do not agree the focus should be more on Renegade though. They are smaller compared to the Legion Forces and it has been suggested some CSM are regenerated and with Abaddon having plenty of geneseed stock, its suggested the Legions of Chaos still recruit and field new Marines. The current codex lacks a focus on the pinnacle aspect of a Chaos army. The very traitors themselves.

I do not want to lose the focus on Renegades, however. Hence if you read the rest of my post, I suggest GW makes it a choice depending on your Champion. No reason a Renegade Lord would not work with a Daemon Prince marked for a chosen God and that in itself could provide a good niche.

Still have the Icons, still use Plague Marines and World Eaters, but that would be a Lord rather then a Daemon Prince. If you're Renegade forces have a Daemon Prince, then so be it, but you should reflect the God he has chosen (or no-God.) with unit choices.

DuskRaider
01-02-2011, 18:38
A mono-Khorne/World Eater or a uniform Nurgle-list is IMO missing the point. Those are just standard, uniform Marine lists with more skulls, simply swapping the "for the Emperor" to "for the Blood God". Yawn. Those add nothing new to the game "conceptually". These type of armies are IMO arguably be much, much better off using a Loyalist Dex (such as Khorne Wolves) as those tend to present the singular dedication to one ideal and a lack of infighting motley crew much better.

But for a "true" and "fluffy" Chaos Marine Army, you NEED bits and parts, Berserkers next to an Emperors Children Sorcerer and a Nurgle Daemon Prince leading a unit of Thousand Sons, perhaps once more with animosity rules (or similar things) to represent their rag-tag, un-disciplined, "big egos united by opportunism, rather than ideology" nature that makes capital "C" Chaos unique, distinct and.. for lack of a better word, "fluffy".

Placing the emphasis on Renegades over Legions (as isolated variant armies, rather than part of the greater whole) thus places a distinct emphasis on what makes Chaos Marines Chaos Marines and should be even more emphasised in a future Chaos Marine Dex.

I think YOU'RE missing the point. It's called a theme. I can tell by your posts you have no concept of such a thing, but believe it or not they DO exist! Legions are what make Chaos Marines... Chaos Marines. If it weren't for the Legions, you wouldn't have your whiny little Space Pirates.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 20:01
As another topic of discussion, in 5th edtion, we have seen non-HQ unit enhancing special characters come into the game; those characters like Harker or Telion who while in and unto themselve are worthwhile alter the use and capabilities of their unit. Are there any good opportunities for this with chaos?This got glossed over... What would people think of bringing the Doomrider and Cypher back as these types of lower echelon special characters? Doomrider or something similar tweaking bikers... and Cypher playing around with maybe a Chosen or CSM squad.

Slazton
01-02-2011, 20:47
I would like to see Doomrider as an up-grade and Cypher would work as an Elite choice IMHO. You take him and he gets a crack squad of Fallen.

Sorry to the fact this topic is beaten to death, but I found my 3.5 codex and it was like, whoa we're missing a lot of stuff. Reading the Codex Chaos Daemon did not help this fact and I'm really on the fence over the ideas people are talking about.

Fix the current Codex by placing Chaos back into the unit choices and allow for different armies to be formed. Give some rules to the insanity that is Chaos and perhaps not have the amnoisty rules, but offer 'stronger' God-Specific Daemonic abilities, wargear, and Daemon Engine/Vehicle Wargear (although I seriously doubt we would have 'four' individual Daemon Engines of each God. Perhaps sumpliment with 'vehicle up-grades' to a Defiler. Anyone else thinking a Tzeentch Defiler should be able to use Psychic Powers?).

Possessed should not have gone back to random dice rolls. That was why they were not used before 3.5 and its why they're not in favor. Its redudant giving them Icons because other units can do what they do and are more reliable. Raptors and Bikers are not really interesting anymore and seem over-priced. The Dreadnought, well its been said lol. Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons nered Icons. Its retarded....sigh...

And to players who are reading this and are in favor of the new codex. Yes we know it works, but Chaos Space Marines were once a heck of a lot more then just Spikey-Marines who make great Imperial Space Marine bad guys. They had more depth then that. Sure it was hate the Emperor and smash his head in, but they were just not fodder to be slain against Marines.

Chaos Space Marines. The name Chaos is in the name and lets actually put it in the codex.

Mannimarco
01-02-2011, 20:51
Doom rider I can see leading his own little "cult of speed" type army where bikes can be taken as troops. Makes sense that these marines would try to emulate DR being the ultimate speed freak.

Personally I would rather see Cypher as an addition to a LATD type army, it seems to fit his M.O better.

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2011, 21:08
Storm troopers can actually take 2 specials. Their problem really is just costing. They would make terrific blockers if they weren't horribly expensive compared to vets.
Meh, maybe. I think they'd have to be extremely cheap to be worth taking over Vets. On the other hand, give them assault 2 or assault 3 AP3 lasguns and you have a unique unit in the IG list that actually has a niche.


I would like to hear how sane points adjustments would fix our lack of suppressive fire at S6/S7.
Chaos has no real lack of S7 firepower. Havocs with autocannon? Terminators with combiplasma? Obliterators with plasmacannon?

I don't think that's a weakness of the list at all. Armour is better dealt with via combi-meltas or obliterators anyway.


2/3 of those aren't taken at MSU, unless you think fixed number squads are MSUs (they're not in my mind).
For IG, 10 is "small". And I think MSU is any approach where you bring a multitude of small, manueverable units. I think vet/chimera spam certainly qualifies.


And, by the way, your coloring of text makes it a real pain in the ass to quote you. Stop being a special snowflake and show some respect to the people trying to have a discussion with you. (Seriously, try quoting and responding to portions of your own posts just once to see what I mean.)
Then don't quote the colour tags, problem solved. I don't mind.



That was more of what I was trying to get at. That it isn't necessarily the individual instances of special rule... like gargoyles being reinvented with poison wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for the 15 other units similarly treated to new special rules.
Well yeah. But gargoyles still don't need the rule. And there are tyranids that DO need special rules.


Let me expand on what I was trying to get at. I sincerely believe he designed the codex around the notion that most people would have an army of conventional units padded with only a few of these special rule inundated units. That such an army tends not to need to worry about so many rules. The further you move away from the intent of the author the less they can be held accountable.
I know what you mean, but frankly the excuse of "well, I never thought people would take more than one vendetta" is a lame one when it comes to codex design.


GW in previous editions was hounded for not having more fluffy options. Their solution's been just adding interesting units to push the game in the less competitive direction that Apocalypse went with the game, presenting units that aren't that practical in 90% of standard games, like the Deathstrike. I just accept that some units are not intended to be practical and are present only as a matter of flavorful choice.
There's a difference between providing flavourful choice and pointless special rules for the sake of special rules. I love the deathstrike, and it may be useless most of the time but I'll take it for fun. I get that, I'm not just concerned with optimum tournament choices. But putting in crazy fun units like the Deathstrike doesn't mean you should throw in every idea ever to strike you as a special rule if the army doesn't need them. Saying "Well, you should take more basic units" or "you shouldn't be using the codex competitively" or "I didn't think anyone would do that" as a designer is just excuses for poor codex design. You can put in all the variety you need without swamping the game in endless rules. Epic deals with all the units 40K does without needing two special rules per unit.


When you look at a codex those units are moot with respect to the competitiveness and thus really stand outside of a codex. That is fine as long as it doesn't get out of hand and the core of the codex allows for varied forms of competitive play. That distinction is where GW's failed, in neglecting the "core" in favor of just adding new units.
Even with the core it's easy to screw it up. I'm betting Logan Grimnar wasn't stress tested, because every SW tournament list I've seen has Logan and every SW army has a core of Wolf Guard. I've not seen a single Blood Claw hit the table in 5th. The core is screwed up because they couldn't resist adding unnecessary special rules to a single not-meant-to-be-used-every-game special character.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 21:16
Doom rider I can see leading his own little "cult of speed" type army where bikes can be taken as troops. Makes sense that these marines would try to emulate DR being the ultimate speed freak.

Personally I would rather see Cypher as an addition to a LATD type army, it seems to fit his M.O better. My notion of him stears away from army building, since given all the other special character driven army builds it seems overkill for another.

I tend to think that if Cultists are included their shtick would be outflanking and inflitrating. I imagine giving him something that allows him and his cadre to follow suit and support cultist would work. Once again building armies from characters should only go so far.



Possessed should not have gone back to random dice rolls. That was why they were not used before 3.5 and its why they're not in favor. Its redudant giving them Icons because other units can do what they do and are more reliable...[/color] This begs the question of what mechanism should be used for possessed? It seems the current system doesn't work, and it seems the GW had something against the purchased upgrades not being chaosy enough. Would just making them more all around fixed in rules but with certain stats random work? Like having furious charge and some other USRs and just d3+1 attacks and S3+d3... rolled each assault.

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2011, 21:30
I don't mind the possessed as they are. There's nothing wrong with the random table, as long as the table helps them to do what they do no matter what your roll. Really, the only thing wrong with them as it is now is that they're a bit overpriced or just underpowered. Why take possessed when you can have bezerkers that are a scoring unit?

Up the power of the possessed, random table and all so that they surpass Bezerkers as the premier close combat nutter unit and I'd take them. I mean if the table was as follows:

1. Monstrous --------- +1 S, +1 T, +1A
2. Beserk ------------- Furious charge & Feel No Pain
3. Lighning fast ------ move as unit type Beasts, rending
4. Invulnerable ------- 3+inv save
5. Wreathed in fire --- each model counts as armed with a flamer.
6. Unstoppable -------- attacks as if wielding a power weapon

Make them count as having frag grenades and holy smokes I'd take them over bezerkers any time.

There's nothing wrong with the random table as a principle, it just needs to be good enough that no matter what you roll it's something good. This can affect the role of the unit, I don't mind having a flexible role for them depending on what I roll, that's fine too.

Right now, they're just a bit lackluster for their points. Especially compared with many of the beasts Blood Angels and Space Wolves can unleash on the tables, I think they need a powerboost rather than a points break.

aka_mythos
01-02-2011, 22:37
My problem when they wrote this GW put the cult units in a position where they should be "elite troops"... kinda like Veterans for IG... but in both instances these units so drastically outshine the actual "elite" choices. Its a no brainer that the actual "elite" choices should have something to outshine troop choices, even if only in some niche way. Possessed currently do not. If Chaos Spawn didn't exist I would almost insist that Possessed be nudge in the direction of Grotesque and Ogryns... those pricey "bruiser" units.

AlphariusOmegon20
02-02-2011, 00:35
I am sorry, but Slaanesh-units always fought alongside Nurgle-units and Followers of Khorne alongside those of Tzeentch, ever since the game (and Chaos fluff) was created.

People seem to deduce from the old "animosity-rules" that uniform mono-god/mono-legion rules were "the intend"/"the fluffy choice", but that is a fallacy IMO.

Really? It seem fallible in itself to believe that, considering we have such stories as Skalathrax, among others, that showed that Mono armies are and were the norm, not the exception. Fluff wise, Only Horus and Abbadon were able to mesh all the cults together into the same army.



40K Chaos has always been about mixed armies;

Again, the previous fluff seems to disagree with that position.


otherwise there wouldn't have been a point to those "animosity rules" in the first place. That, always, has been what made Chaos .. well "Chaos". One the one side, you had the more uniform (by a singular paint-job) and "disciplined" (as in they don't brawl with each other) Loyalist Marines, on the other side the infighting, rag-tag Chaos Marine Forces bringing in parts and bits from different cults and legions whose alliance may break down during the fight. THAT, is what made a fluffly Chaos army unique.

Ah, never mind that the LEGIONS were uniform and disciplined in their look even after the Heresy. So they went totally unintelligent and ignorant and forgot their battle discipline after they left Terra? I think not.

The breakup of the Legions is one piece of fluff I would gladly support being retconned, as it makes little sense to me.



A mono-Khorne/World Eater or a uniform Nurgle-list is IMO missing the point.

Hardly. A Mono Khorne list is used to represent a World Eaters force, which is supported by the fluff. Same with the All Nurgle to represent a Death Guard army.



These type of armies are IMO arguably be much, much better off using a Loyalist Dex (such as Khorne Wolves) as those tend to present the singular dedication to one ideal and a lack of infighting motley crew much better.

Which causes cross codex "contamination", as people like to bitch about. We are Chaos, we have a codex to use that represents us somewhat adequately to a point (The crap quality of the current codex's internal balance and style is best saved for another discussion.)



But for a "true" and "fluffy" Chaos Marine Army, you NEED bits and parts,

No, you don't. This is the fallacy of your argument, based on the previous fluff.


Berserkers next to an Emperors Children Sorcerer and a Nurgle Daemon Prince leading a unit of Thousand Sons, perhaps once more with animosity rules (or similar things) to represent their rag-tag, un-disciplined, "big egos united by opportunism, rather than ideology" nature that makes capital "C" Chaos unique, distinct and.. for lack of a better word, "fluffy".

That rule was not there for fluff reasons, it was there for internal balance ones. There had to be a downside for taking all the best units.


Placing the emphasis on Renegades over Legions (as isolated variant armies, rather than part of the greater whole) thus places a distinct emphasis on what makes Chaos Marines Chaos Marines and should be even more emphasised in a future Chaos Marine Dex.

But you forget, that is NOT what people want. People WANT the Legions. This has been shown to you time and time again in threads like this one.

It is, again, merely what YOU want.

Lord Inquisitor
02-02-2011, 00:37
My problem when they wrote this GW put the cult units in a position where they should be "elite troops"... kinda like Veterans for IG... but in both instances these units so drastically outshine the actual "elite" choices. Its a no brainer that the actual "elite" choices should have something to outshine troop choices, even if only in some niche way. Possessed currently do not. If Chaos Spawn didn't exist I would almost insist that Possessed be nudge in the direction of Grotesque and Ogryns... those pricey "bruiser" units.

I agree. Although hopefully without the price tag that makes them impossible to use. Ogryns got the stat boost they needed... and then got priced so damn high noone can field them.

I personally think they need to give the Elite choices a serious "power up". For several reasons. One, to actually seem elite compared with the amazing Troop choices. Two, to give credit to the ancient veterans of the eternal war against the emperor.

Take Chosen, Terminators and Possessed and make them so freaking powerful that people will take notice (with an appropriate price tag, of course). Chosen, for example, might have 2+ saves, WS6, two attacks base with options to each carry special weapons, power weapons, etc., plus a free roll on the Eye of the Gods table. Rock hard and dangerous, but expensive. Terminators should be WS5 but aren't too bad right now. Possessed need to be total freakshow nutters that can tear apart battletanks, a unit that even monstrous creatures are afraid of. Space Marine + Daemon should be unbelievably powerful.

This will achieve the two objectives. One, give the "old guard" some love and make them viable to represent the Legion veterans. Two, make the elite choices valuable over the really good Troops.

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 07:50
I think YOU'RE missing the point. It's called a theme. I can tell by your posts you have no concept of such a thing, but believe it or not they DO exist! Legions are what make Chaos Marines... Chaos Marines. If it weren't for the Legions, you wouldn't have your whiny little Space Pirates.

I know what a theme is. I think it is you who is confusing "theme" with "uniformity".

The theme of Loyalists is "uniformity, coherence, discipline". The theme of Chaos Marines is the opposite. This is precisely the reason why uniform mono-god/legion armies violate the "theme" of Chaos and would be better off as variants of the loyalist books; i.e. ideally, GW would just publish a SC for, say, World Eaters that goes with Space Wolves or for Night Lords that goes with Blood Angels. That's where people go to looking for a "uniform" theme anyways. And it would free to push the "theme" in the Chaos Codex that makes Chaos .. you know.. Chaos.. i.e. a "theme" dedicated to the "lack of uniformity".

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 08:03
Really? It seem fallible in itself to believe that, considering we have such stories as Skalathrax, among others, that showed that Mono armies are and were the norm, not the exception. Fluff wise, Only Horus and Abbadon were able to mesh all the cults together into the same army.

All GW sample armies feature multi-god, multi-Legion compositions. There is evidently fluff on "each" God and Legion so you know what each part is and where it comes from. But you're still encouraged to bring them together on the table.



Ah, never mind that the LEGIONS were uniform and disciplined in their look even after the Heresy. So they went totally unintelligent and ignorant and forgot their battle discipline after they left Terra? I think not.


Doesn't matter. The Loyalists were different after the Heresy too than they are in the current books. The Horus Heresy is background, not, note the date, 40k!



The breakup of the Legions is one piece of fluff I would gladly support being retconned, as it makes little sense to me.


Maybe that is your position, but that is not how it is written or played out in 40K as it stands. If you have a preference for some "alternative-universe-40K", cool. Write a fan-dex and let me see it. But stuff like this is best left to another discussion.



Hardly. A Mono Khorne list is used to represent a World Eaters force, which is supported by the fluff. Same with the All Nurgle to represent a Death Guard army.


Which is fine for a fan-project like playing in the Horus Heresy. Forgeworld already did some mono-God chaos forces in their books to cater to this. But this is not necessarly the stuff you should start with for a "main-stay" Chaos Marine Codex.




Which causes cross codex "contamination", as people like to bitch about. We are Chaos, we have a codex to use that represents us somewhat adequately to a point (The crap quality of the current codex's internal balance and style is best saved for another discussion.)


If this "contamination" is what people "want", as you so frequently argue, why not give it to them. Put the World Eater SCs into the Wolf Dex, perhaps by WD, and your done. Goes with the apparent preferences of the player base and leaves the Chaos Marine dex to work with the multi-God and Renegade Forces. And both sides are happy!




That rule was not there for fluff reasons, it was there for internal balance ones. There had to be a downside for taking all the best units.


Quite the opposite. "Competitive players" ignored the animosity because it hurt their competitiveness, and, slowly, as a result, the very perception of Chaos Marines became "contaminated" with the power-gamer-lists by mistaken uniform lists for the proper way to play Chaos; similar perhaps to how Space Wolves are suddenly synonym with Long Fangs, even though long-range artillery was at best an oddity/minor element of previous Space Wolf fluff (as were Mono-God-Armies in Chaos Marine fluff).




But you forget, that is NOT what people want. People WANT the Legions. This has been shown to you time and time again in threads like this one.

It is, again, merely what YOU want.

Evidently. But as noted above, you are also biased in your perception. People want to play World Eaters with the Wolves Dex, but you call it "contamination" in an obviously derogatory intent. You're arguing your own biased preference (to the point of actually stating you'd prefer a sort of alternative-universe 40K, or perhaps a Warhammer 30K) as much as I do.

Born Again
02-02-2011, 10:32
I know what a theme is. I think it is you who is confusing "theme" with "uniformity".

The theme of Loyalists is "uniformity, coherence, discipline". The theme of Chaos Marines is the opposite. This is precisely the reason why uniform mono-god/legion armies violate the "theme" of Chaos and would be better off as variants of the loyalist books; i.e. ideally, GW would just publish a SC for, say, World Eaters that goes with Space Wolves or for Night Lords that goes with Blood Angels. That's where people go to looking for a "uniform" theme anyways. And it would free to push the "theme" in the Chaos Codex that makes Chaos .. you know.. Chaos.. i.e. a "theme" dedicated to the "lack of uniformity".

While I generally appreciate your role as Devil's Advocate on these topics, you shouldn't confuse "Chaos" with "Random", or as an opposite to "uniform". Mixed forces are in the fluff, have been for a long time, and do happen, certainly... but mono-god forces are there as well, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Wishing
02-02-2011, 11:12
Agreed. Despite the name, the theme of chaos is not randomness, and it's not the imperium's discipline they are an antithesis to. It is much more appropriate to say that loyalist marines are the defenders of humanity, and chaos marines are the despoilers of humanity. They exemplify evil, not variety. Just look at the thousand sons - they may be the servants of the lord of change and mutation, but their theme is that they are a uniform faceless mass of empty suits of armour. Not much chaotic and un-uniform about that.

You could say that chaos *should* be about randomness and variety, which is fair enough, but that's not the character that GW has given them in my opinion.

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 12:00
I think I actively tried to avoid the word "random". That was not the point I was making. Don't put words in my mouth to argue against a straw man.

But there is a difference between "uniformity" or perhaps "coherency" that follows from a codified military structure which is given emphasis in the 40K universe first and foremost (even before the IG) in the Loyalist Codexes. It's not by accident that the Space Marine Codex in particular has so much glossy high-colour pages dedicated to different companies, organisation charts, squad- and unit-markings, etc.. .

In contrast to the above stand the Chaos Space Marines, who by virtue of their backstory tracing their origins to the Heresy Legions, were once followers of a simlar "theme", but are now more often united in force driven by opportunism, ego and base desires like lust or violence. Consequently the Chaos Space Marine Codex gives you various sources and backstories, including Legions and Cults, from which to build your "force" of Chaos Space Marines.
The resulting "theme" is not "random", but rather a fragile alliance (with fragility once emphasised by the animosity rules) that is distinctively (and on the table visible) in opposition to the codified structure of the Loyalist Marines.

As said above, playing "loyalist" Marines that simply switch a blue point job for a red one, and their credo of "for the Emperor" to "for the Blood God" are not, on a thematical or conceptual level different from Ultramarines and wouldn't, as a consequence (and in my humble opinion), need a unique Codex of their own.

Now, of course mono-lists are popular. And of course, my opinions are my opinions. But I cannot in each and every single post re-emphasise this caveat if noone else arguing the other position is willing to do so either. And neither does it seem productive to troll every post of "3.5 was the best thing since sliced bread" by telling the poster he ought to make it plain that his opinion is just that. As noted frequently, this is assumed to be given in any post ever posted on warseer.

Emphasising that the "plurality" of Chaos as a theme however is necessary and important, because far to many posters here would do away with it needlessly. Example, if you're in for an only-Khorne/only-World Eater force anyways.. why in Gods name do you promote a rule that would disallow Berzerkers to be lead by a Slannesh Sorcerer or would ban Marks/Icons of Slannesh from a World Eater army? Presuming this doesn't fit your vision of Khorne/World Eaters, you wouldn't use these options anyways. So in effect, you are banning something which you wouldn't have employed anyways, but by the same act throwing a wench into people trying to build "fluffy" multi-God/Legion armies. That just strikes me as pointless and willfully spiteful hatemongering that does not in any way, shape or from promote a better CSM Dex.

aka_mythos
02-02-2011, 12:15
Agreed. Despite the name, the theme of chaos is not randomness, and it's not the imperium's discipline they are an antithesis to. It is much more appropriate to say that loyalist marines are the defenders of humanity, and chaos marines are the despoilers of humanity. They exemplify evil, not variety... I think this is another problem with Chaos' fluff. While it worked in the past to be the Snidely Whiplash, mustache twirling villains who did evil for the sake of evil, to grow their power; this is a bit dated. GW should delve more into Chaos' motivation... even if only to clarify how Chaos actions outside the Eye of Terror allow the space warp phenomenon to grow. It seems to me that the worlds within the Eye of Terror as they become Daemon worlds would tend to displace some Chaos factions forcing this continual, inevitablly self destructive, expansion. If GW made that more explicit it would help Chaos move beyond Saturday morning cartoon villains to villains that are motivated by a necessity to proliferate Chaos.

Brother Siccarius
02-02-2011, 12:30
Agreed. Despite the name, the theme of chaos is not randomness, and it's not the imperium's discipline they are an antithesis to. It is much more appropriate to say that loyalist marines are the defenders of humanity, and chaos marines are the despoilers of humanity. They exemplify evil, not variety. Just look at the thousand sons - they may be the servants of the lord of change and mutation, but their theme is that they are a uniform faceless mass of empty suits of armour. Not much chaotic and un-uniform about that.

You could say that chaos *should* be about randomness and variety, which is fair enough, but that's not the character that GW has given them in my opinion.

Actually it is. Chaos, in regards to the Gods and Demons, is non-uniformity and randomness. The Warp is ever changing, and the Chaos Gods are as well. They follow a basic, skeleton of a purpose, but really do not head towards any particular goal. Things like goals and attributes are filters added to them by their mortal followers who are unable to comprehend reality the way the Chaos Gods do.
The best example and metaphor of this phenomena is demons. Demons have no absolute form in the warp and only attain a single form by crossing over to the mortal/material realm.

Now, that's the case of Chaos, but Chaos Space Marines are an entirely different story. Like the mortal followers of Lovecraft's Old Gods, which the Chaos Gods are based off of, the mortal followers are goal oriented and unable to comprehend the reality of what they worship, so the attribute personalities to it to complement their goals and help their understanding. Because in the 40k reality you don't have to worship the Chaos Gods to have a mutation, or be born with a psychic gift or a taint of the warp. It really is random and varied.

The Chaos Space Marines, and all mortal chaos followers, should be goal oriented and look to the Chaos Gods to supplement their abilities, not supplant them. Which is why you have lesser demons in the Chaos Space Marine book as the "regular chaos demons" (which are not all that regular*) took away from the Chaos Marines on the table by supplanting them in many ways. Chaos mutations were a nightmare in terms of both balance and dynamics on the table. There were certain combinations taken in almost every army because they were just too powerful to ignore (+Str, +Att), and some that often proved almost impossible to beat (Slaanesh Prince, multiple lesser psychic powers to get siren, demonic stature, Demonic Flight, Negate Inv save demon weapon). Combine that with a new list of special veteran skills and you've got a codex suffering from a hernia carrying all that new material and an impossible mess when it came to balance.

So the clock gets reset, they move the codex back in line with the previous one, and tweak it from there. And now we're back where we were, and no that's not in the "unplayable" category, it's in the "balanced" one. The real problem is the further unbalance present in other armies like the loyalist Space Marines and their unfortunate mess of codexies.


*Despite their ever presence on the table, there are more unmentioned demons in the warp than the handful of God specific ones and the smattering of undivideds.


I think this is another problem with Chaos' fluff. While it worked in the past to be the Snidely Whiplash, mustache twirling villains who did evil for the sake of evil, to grow their power; this is a bit dated. GW should delve more into Chaos' motivation... even if only to clarify how Chaos actions outside the Eye of Terror allow the space warp phenomenon to grow. It seems to me that the worlds within the Eye of Terror as they become Daemon worlds would tend to displace some Chaos factions forcing this continual, inevitablly self destructive, expansion. If GW made that more explicit it would help Chaos move beyond Saturday morning cartoon villains to villains that are motivated by a necessity to proliferate Chaos.

Hence the entire Horus Heresy series. They were never doing "evil for the sake of evil" at the beginning. There was a purpose to them turning towards the chaos gods, and a reasoning behind that. However, like a drug addict, once that reasoning becomes distant and their driving force is removed they either collapse at the realization of what they've done or go on a binge and revel in the feel of their high.
When Horus died and their structure collapsed, the Chaos Legions went off the rocker. As for the ones after that? They all have their shadowy reasons.

Wishing
02-02-2011, 12:43
Now, of course mono-lists are popular. And of course, my opinions are my opinions. But I cannot in each and every single post re-emphasise this caveat if noone else arguing the other position is willing to do so either. And neither does it seem productive to troll every post of "3.5 was the best thing since sliced bread" by telling the poster he ought to make it plain that his opinion is just that. As noted frequently, this is assumed to be given in any post ever posted on warseer.


Well, yeah. I assume that your opinion is just that, and that you understand that my opinion is just that. We are just expressing that we disagree with each other's opinions. Which is cool.



Emphasising that the "plurality" of Chaos as a theme however is necessary and important, because far to many posters here would do away with it needlessly. Example, if you're in for an only-Khorne/only-World Eater force anyways.. why in Gods name do you promote a rule that would disallow Berzerkers to be lead by a Slannesh Sorcerer or would ban Marks/Icons of Slannesh from a World Eater army? Presuming this doesn't fit your vision of Khorne/World Eaters, you wouldn't use these options anyways. So in effect, you are banning something which you wouldn't have employed anyways, but by the same act throwing a wench into people trying to build "fluffy" multi-God/Legion armies. That just strikes me as pointless and willfully spiteful hatemongering that does not in any way, shape or from promote a better CSM Dex.

I agree in essence that it is crucial that chaos armies should remain able to mix units of different powers together, as this shows how chaos is organised around warbands that have flocked together through force of personality rather than formal organisation. However, I think this has to be balanced with an equal amount of mono-god focus, to show the element of fanaticism and how deity followers just as often wage war on each other as mix together. To me, the 3.5 dex allowed both those kinds of armies, which is why it was my favourite so far. I just wished mono-god armies would gain some variety and pluralism by allowing beastmen and cultists of the deity in question rather than just endless marines.

aka_mythos
02-02-2011, 13:19
Hence the entire Horus Heresy series. They were never doing "evil for the sake of evil" at the beginning. There was a purpose to them turning towards the chaos gods, and a reasoning behind that. However, like a drug addict, once that reasoning becomes distant and their driving force is removed they either collapse at the realization of what they've done or go on a binge and revel in the feel of their high.
When Horus died and their structure collapsed, the Chaos Legions went off the rocker. As for the ones after that? They all have their shadowy reasons.Thats the distinction I was trying to make. Their purpose before the Heresy is a lot better explained than their motivations after the Heresy. If "power" in an addictive sort of way were truely the only motivation of Chaos, Malal would revel in the self destruction, and there wouldn't be many surviving Legion space marines. Maybe its because I'm older, maybe it because the standards of media have more examples of "complicated" villains, but evil, power hungry, destroyers is kinda generic and lacks a worthwhile explanation to specifically why? For example, Dark Eldar are motivated because they liteally feed on the suffering of others and need "stock" to feed on... that is why they raid. Chaos doesn't really have an explanation for what it does, and it seems they should have some foci to explain their actions, even if it varies from faction to faction.

Slazton
02-02-2011, 13:53
Thats the distinction I was trying to make. Their purpose before the Heresy is a lot better explained than their motivations after the Heresy. If "power" in an addictive sort of way were truely the only motivation of Chaos, Malal would revel in the self destruction, and there wouldn't be many surviving Legion space marines. Maybe its because I'm older, maybe it because the standards of media have more examples of "complicated" villains, but evil, power hungry, destroyers is kinda generic and lacks a worthwhile explanation to specifically why? For example, Dark Eldar are motivated because they liteally feed on the suffering of others and need "stock" to feed on... that is why they raid. Chaos doesn't really have an explanation for what it does, and it seems they should have some foci to explain their actions, even if it varies from faction to faction.

I am led to believe the Chaos Gods give that direction. The original Traitor Legions have fallen so far they operate on their own accord. They chose which parts of the Imperium to destroy and ravage and the Chaos Gods reward them. By tying in the fact the Chaos Marines are striving towards dominion amongst each other and the Imperium, it has created the warriors to be nothing more then 'husks' destined to fight over and over again. They know nothing else.

However this is not true for all Champions of Chaos and it is in my opinion the different Legions, Champions, Warbands etc would have different motivations based on what their intended purpose is. Thousand Son Sorcerers are nortorious for collecting ancient technology and knowledge to further their own goals of ultimate power while Khorne Bezerkers in their desperation to get Khorne's attention would wage war on a planet that would prove their might as warriors of Khorne.

The Chaos Gods are linked to the Chaos Space Marines in this regard. Each God gives different motivations. My Word Bearers army believed itself to be superior to all the Chaos Armies including other Word Bearer armies. They saw mutation as both a boon and a curse. Possessed marines are nothing short of cannon fodder while Daemons were the same. Only the Chaos Space Marines of the Word Bearers have the true connection with the Chaos Gods and understand their motivations.

The concept of Chaos being random and insane is the root of what it is to be Chaos in the warp. If you want a pure Chaos army, please feel free to play Chaos Daemons. That is a true Chaos army. Chaos Space Marines are not a true Chaos army. These are Space Marines that either fell during or after the HH and are no longer Heroes, but destroyers. Fulfilling their own selfish means after being freed from the dogma of a Space Marine. They operate with human desires and human thoughts and thus their warbands would fit either the character of the Arch-Heretic/Daemon Prince leading the 'bigger warband' where the example presented would work.

If a larger Daemon Prince was leading a huge warband and had two of his previous Lts, Daemon Princes of Slaanesh, personally lead the Khorne Bezekers and Nurgle Marines to make sure they stuck to the overall objectives of the Daemon Prince 'in charge' then you are finding avenues of exploiting the fluff. However, this does not mean 'mon-God' armies are not Chaos. That's absurd. It might not be a good idea for army choices because of the limitations you place upon your army, but from fluff POV, it's true.

This current codex even agrees with it and I am shocked that Chaos Daemons retconned a lot of fluff with the Chaos Gods and Daemons(in a damn good way), but in the CSM codex it feels bland and light.

Warbands of Chaos. Why not have a single army dedicated to the glory of Chaos? Why do my Word Bearers have to take Plague Marines, etc to make ends meet? Shouldn't non-marked Marines be able to do it for them? Heck no, not with the current troop choices and the fact Nurgle Marines, Noise Marines, and Khorne Bezerkers give you more bang for your buck and you get really interesting skills and abilities by being a Chaos follower.

Zweischneid:

Your ideas suit well with a Renegade Warband or a mixture of different Chaos followers serving under one leader. However that is not all of Chaos. Believe it or not, you're simplifying Chaos even if you're trying not to. Chaos is random and is like Human nature. We all have different ideas of what it is that Chaos encompasses when in truth, it encompasses almost any idea. Chaos is both random and uniform for the two are opposites, but Chaos brigns opposites together and makes them the same. This is the nature of chaos, pure undiluted insanity.

Mono-God armies are apart of Chaos fluff and will always serve to be one of its defining features. If every single warband used every single Chaos God, then where would be the insanity that is Chaos? The Gods war with each other as apart of the Great Game, but their followers are not to join in? Only Daemons? That makes no sense. A Chaos CHampion of Nurgle would throw down his Nurgle forces and fioght for Nurgle as apart of the Big Game and not use Slaaneshi/Khorne followers in his warband because it would only take away the souls that are killed and devote them to another God. Each God wants to be stronger and overpower its opponenets and thus mono-God armies are born!

Chaos should have the option to field both mono and mixed armies/warbands and have obvious 'pitfalls' and benefits for the choices you make.

Born Again
02-02-2011, 13:57
I think I actively tried to avoid the word "random". That was not the point I was making. Don't put words in my mouth to argue against a straw man.

But there is a difference between "uniformity" or perhaps "coherency" that follows from a codified military structure which is given emphasis in the 40K universe first and foremost (even before the IG) in the Loyalist Codexes. It's not by accident that the Space Marine Codex in particular has so much glossy high-colour pages dedicated to different companies, organisation charts, squad- and unit-markings, etc.. .

In contrast to the above stand the Chaos Space Marines, who by virtue of their backstory tracing their origins to the Heresy Legions, were once followers of a simlar "theme", but are now more often united in force driven by opportunism, ego and base desires like lust or violence. Consequently the Chaos Space Marine Codex gives you various sources and backstories, including Legions and Cults, from which to build your "force" of Chaos Space Marines.
The resulting "theme" is not "random", but rather a fragile alliance (with fragility once emphasised by the animosity rules) that is distinctively (and on the table visible) in opposition to the codified structure of the Loyalist Marines.

As said above, playing "loyalist" Marines that simply switch a blue point job for a red one, and their credo of "for the Emperor" to "for the Blood God" are not, on a thematical or conceptual level different from Ultramarines and wouldn't, as a consequence (and in my humble opinion), need a unique Codex of their own.


"Random" was perhaps a poor choice of words, but my point remains that Chaos does not have to literally mean chaotic in the sense of unordered, with no typical, permanent structure. Indeed, if it really is to be "chaotic", then you should be free to do whatever you want, whether that be one allegiance or many. On that note:




Emphasising that the "plurality" of Chaos as a theme however is necessary and important, because far to many posters here would do away with it needlessly. Example, if you're in for an only-Khorne/only-World Eater force anyways.. why in Gods name do you promote a rule that would disallow Berzerkers to be lead by a Slannesh Sorcerer or would ban Marks/Icons of Slannesh from a World Eater army? Presuming this doesn't fit your vision of Khorne/World Eaters, you wouldn't use these options anyways. So in effect, you are banning something which you wouldn't have employed anyways, but by the same act throwing a wench into people trying to build "fluffy" multi-God/Legion armies. That just strikes me as pointless and willfully spiteful hatemongering that does not in any way, shape or from promote a better CSM Dex.


This is entirely correct. I have never understood this. There is a distinct difference between putting a theme on your army, and having an entirely new army in itself. Now, if GW decides it wants Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Iron Warriors etc, it will do so. Until then, these armies all fall under the banner of "Chaos Space Marines". If you care about the fluff and want to theme your force, you can do so. That's what a theme is, making army selection choices based on all the options available to you and a piece of background you wish to concentrate on. Having an arbitrary list of restrictions and a smattering of special rules for declaring your army to be from a certain Legion is just making them an entirely new army altogether, and is not necessary.

aka_mythos
02-02-2011, 14:17
...Thousand Son Sorcerers are nortorious for collecting ancient technology and knowledge to further their own goals of ultimate power while Khorne Bezerkers in their desperation to get Khorne's attention would wage war on a planet that would prove their might as warriors of Khorne...The Chaos Gods are linked to the Chaos Space Marines in this regard. Each God gives different motivations...This is not motivation; this is what they do and not why they do it. Why do they collect technology and want "ultimate power" and why do they want "prove their might" or power? GW has explained what these different factions are doing but give no reason beyond that. If its all for the glory of their gods, what do they believe will happen when their god is satisfied? Do they even believe the chaos god's can be satisfied? If so when or how? Is it that the presence of the Emperor in the galaxy pains the gods and his removal necessitates the destruction of the Imperium?-Maybe but as far as I know nothing as such has been conveyed.

aka_mythos
02-02-2011, 14:32
"Random" was perhaps a poor choice of words, but my point remains that Chaos does not have to literally mean chaotic in the sense of unordered, with no typical, permanent structure. Indeed, if it really is to be "chaotic", then you should be free to do whatever you want, whether that be one allegiance or many.Seems like what you're trying to get at is the fluidic unpredicatble nature of Chaos as a faction. You want to make the same distinctions for Chaos as say there are between democracy and mob mentality. To the nobility, democracy had little distinction with mob rule to them. I'm sure to the very structured beauracray of the Imperium the sentiment would tend to be the same of Chaos. The fact Chaos still exists and hasn't self destructed means their is some organization that allows groups of chaos to function cohesively, despite varying backgrounds... even if that organization is a loose and easily broken one.

Born Again
03-02-2011, 02:00
Seems like what you're trying to get at is the fluidic unpredicatble nature of Chaos as a faction. You want to make the same distinctions for Chaos as say there are between democracy and mob mentality. To the nobility, democracy had little distinction with mob rule to them. I'm sure to the very structured beauracray of the Imperium the sentiment would tend to be the same of Chaos. The fact Chaos still exists and hasn't self destructed means their is some organization that allows groups of chaos to function cohesively, despite varying backgrounds... even if that organization is a loose and easily broken one.

That is a good point that I'd agree with, but it wasn't what I was originally trying to get at. There was a debate between whether Chaos was "mon-god" or "multi-god", I was just stating that as Chaos, it's both!

You have a good way of putting it, though.

Slazton
03-02-2011, 04:01
This is not motivation; this is what they do and not why they do it. Why do they collect technology and want "ultimate power" and why do they want "prove their might" or power? GW has explained what these different factions are doing but give no reason beyond that. If its all for the glory of their gods, what do they believe will happen when their god is satisfied? Do they even believe the chaos god's can be satisfied? If so when or how? Is it that the presence of the Emperor in the galaxy pains the gods and his removal necessitates the destruction of the Imperium?-Maybe but as far as I know nothing as such has been conveyed.

Is that not the springboard GW gives you to fill in those blanks and create them for yourself? To promote your Chaos army having an agenda and perhaps even adding character to the theme you approach?

Brother Siccarius
03-02-2011, 04:10
This is not motivation; this is what they do and not why they do it. Why do they collect technology and want "ultimate power" and why do they want "prove their might" or power? GW has explained what these different factions are doing but give no reason beyond that. If its all for the glory of their gods, what do they believe will happen when their god is satisfied? Do they even believe the chaos god's can be satisfied? If so when or how? Is it that the presence of the Emperor in the galaxy pains the gods and his removal necessitates the destruction of the Imperium?-Maybe but as far as I know nothing as such has been conveyed.

Again, you're assuming the Chaos Gods take an active role in a universe that is not their own. Goals and satisfaction of the gods are added or interpreted by their followers, and not actually part of the Chaos Gods. There really is no "endgame" for the Chaos Gods. It's like trying to find an endgame scenario for erosion or a storm system, because the gods are just forces of nature and emotion and not coherent enough to actually have plans. They are not naturally a means to an end, but rather simply a means.


Thats the distinction I was trying to make. Their purpose before the Heresy is a lot better explained than their motivations after the Heresy. If "power" in an addictive sort of way were truely the only motivation of Chaos, Malal would revel in the self destruction, and there wouldn't be many surviving Legion space marines.

It's not that "power" is addictive, it's that Chaos is addictive. In fact in some Warhammer media it is used directly as a drug. Spook and Flecks are two mentioned in Necromunda and Ravenor, respectively.
As to Malal, well he's no longer in-universe.


Seems like what you're trying to get at is the fluidic unpredicatble nature of Chaos as a faction. You want to make the same distinctions for Chaos as say there are between democracy and mob mentality. To the nobility, democracy had little distinction with mob rule to them. I'm sure to the very structured beauracray of the Imperium the sentiment would tend to be the same of Chaos. The fact Chaos still exists and hasn't self destructed means their is some organization that allows groups of chaos to function cohesively, despite varying backgrounds... even if that organization is a loose and easily broken one.

But that had nothing to do with Chaos and everything to do with leaders. It takes Abbadon to make the factional legions to stop their infighting, and those guys were ones previously united under a single flag before. The mono-legions don't play well with others and there's plenty of evidence in 40k of mono-god armies fighting other mono-god armies with no regard for one another and certainly not under a single flag of Chaos. With undivided armies that contain mono-god groups, the factions are less prevalent and less likely to self destruct, as it is with the Black Legion and the Red Corsairs.
The new Chaos Codex was part of a change that happened across other armies at the time trying to include multiple options for different sub-armies into one while focusing solely on a single vanilla army concept. It happened with the Space Marines at that time (which was then redone soon after), and it also happened with the Orks. The Chaos Space Marine book doesn't focus on the mono-god armies or the legions, it's more focused towards the later additions to chaos, while the previous edition focused solely on the Legion armies.

Castigator
03-02-2011, 07:59
while the previous edition focused solely on the Legion armies.

That is plain wrong.

Brother Siccarius
03-02-2011, 10:35
That is plain wrong.

It's also the way the developers described it when they were making the current Codex, and one of the reasons they gave for downplaying the mono-god units and legion specific rules in it. The previous CSM codex was as much about the Black Legion as the latest SM codex is about Ultramarines. There was so much in there that no new chaos converts would have. Veteran skills and equipment style mutations both were introduced as products of the long period of battling in the Eye of Terror, and were both geared towards the Legions. There's also the case of the Legion specific army choices in the back of the book, the constant legion specific background throughout, and the legion specific characters. They might as well have called the book "Codex Legions". The current book is much closer to a generalized CSM book and further from a "Legions" book.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 10:59
It's also the way the developers described it when they were making the current Codex, and one of the reasons they gave for downplaying the mono-god units and legion specific rules in it. The previous CSM codex was as much about the Black Legion as the latest SM codex is about Ultramarines. There was so much in there that no new chaos converts would have. Veteran skills and equipment style mutations both were introduced as products of the long period of battling in the Eye of Terror, and were both geared towards the Legions. There's also the case of the Legion specific army choices in the back of the book, the constant legion specific background throughout, and the legion specific characters. They might as well have called the book "Codex Legions". The current book is much closer to a generalized CSM book and further from a "Legions" book.

Again, the dichotomy of "Legions=old" & "Renegades=fresh" is just wrong and fairly stupid.

World Eaters have as many "new recruits" and "recently fallen" Marines (cue Zufhor") as Red Corsairs have 10.000 year old Eye-of-Terror Veterans who once fought side-to-side with Horus and now flock to the banner of Huron.

The age distinction that would indicate different equipment between Legions and Renegades is a fallacy and not the gaming "intent" of Renegades either which is, analogous to "second+ founding chapters" to allow players to pick up their favorite parts of the background and adapt and change them (i.e. non-TS Rubik Marines or non-Khorne Berzerkers).

Erwos
03-02-2011, 11:18
World Eaters have as many "new recruits" and "recently fallen" Marines (cue Zufhor") as Red Corsairs have 10.000 year old Eye-of-Terror Veterans who once fought side-to-side with Horus and now flock to the banner of Huron.
I'd like a source for that, including page numbers.

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 12:39
I to would like a reference of the Horus Heresy veteran Legions now fighting under Hurons banner. AFAIK he is based in the Maelstrom, the only Legion I know which has a presence here is the Word Bearers under the command of Kor Phaeron.

He is right that Zhufor is a latter day renegade who has risen through the ranks to become leader of the "Skulltakers"(World Eater sub faction) and one of Abaddons lieutenants. Ref: Vraks 3, Zhufors back story page.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 12:51
I'd like a source for that, including page numbers.

As for Huron; he is noted to be exceptionally well respected (and feared) among the traitor legions (Heroes of the Space Marines Antology). His Flagship is a wholesale adoption from the Word Bearers (Imperial Armour 9). The Chaos Space Marine Codex makes note of him leading Death Guard Legion Marines (p. 65.).



As for the Legions; Zufhor I already named. Besides, it is worth, once again, to re-iterate the rather obvious statement on the Legions from the Codex:



Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size.

Erwos
03-02-2011, 13:13
As for Huron; he is noted to be exceptionally well respected (and feared) among the traitor legions (Heroes of the Space Marines Antology). His Flagship is a wholesale adoption from the Word Bearers (Imperial Armour 9). The Chaos Space Marine Codex makes note of him leading Death Guard Legion Marines (p. 65.).
This is not nearly the same thing as saying there are just as many Legionaries under Huron as, say, under Typhus. That is the distinction I wanted to make. Kudos on the source material, though. I do not doubt Huron's got some Legionaries working for him, but the same number or more than Typhus, Abaddon, or the like... seems unsupported to me, especially given the Storm of Iron novels and the previous codex fluff where you still have large Legion companies. Again, use the example of Typhus' group, the Iron Warriors, and so on. They are, as noted, much less organized than before the Legion, but that's not the same as no organization.

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 13:16
p65 is a painting page showing what can be done with the army, sadly it suffers as the old ork army did where "it doesnt look like an army, it looks like a random collection of units thrown together". We shouldnt use a painting guide as a fluff representation otherwise we will start seeing how Vulkan is a highly respected member of the Ultramarines, look how often we see a blue Vulkan in peoples armies or how the paranoid and distrustful Iron Warriors are perfectly fine with fighting alongside plague marines and rubrics and berserkers as shown by the 2 page spread on p78-79 Codex: CSM

If its worth pointing out (once again) how the Legions have all broken down into warbands of varying size is it also worth pointing out (from the same codex) how Angron led a "warband" of 50 000 World Eaters in the "Dominion of Fire" in mid M38? Thats pretty impressive for a Legion which has supposedly broken up due to "Millennia of jealousies and infighting".

Is it also worth mentioning how in the BL novel "Dark Creed" 9 000 Word Bearers turned up on the planet Borros and were still outnumbered by the Black Legion there?

For all these little snippets of fluff showing how the Legions dont exist anymore and have all broken up into "warbands of varying size" theres still a fair amount of fluff showing some of these broken up warbands are the size of a chapter (and sometimes considerably larger)

Born Again
03-02-2011, 13:18
This is not nearly the same thing as saying there are just as many Legionaries under Huron as, say, under Typhus. That is the distinction I wanted to make. Kudos on the source material, though. I do not doubt Huron's got some Legionaries working for him, but the same number or more than Typhus, Abaddon, or the like... seems unsupported to me, especially given the Storm of Iron novels and the like where you still have semi-cohesive Legions.

This, again, does not support an "equal" number of Legionaries under his command, but does show he has some... main rulebook, page 146. Huron strikes a deal with a squad of Night Lords to fight the Marines Errant.

Erwos
03-02-2011, 13:21
This, again, does not support an "equal" number of Legionaries under his command, but does show he has some... main rulebook, page 146. Huron strikes a deal with a squad of Night Lords to fight the Marines Errant.
Never denied Huron has some Legionaries working with him - I feel like I remember the 2E codex even mentioning this. I do, however, think it's unsupported to say he's got the same number as the Iron Warriors Grand Companies, Abaddon, Typhus, or any number of other Heresy-era guys still going. It all goes back to the composition argument - I simply do not accept that all warbands, companies, and other organizations are now just a weird mix of everyone and anyone. Some certainly are, though!

aka_mythos
03-02-2011, 14:28
Again, the dichotomy of "Legions=old" & "Renegades=fresh" is just wrong and fairly stupid.

...

The age distinction that would indicate different equipment between Legions and Renegades is a fallacy and not the gaming "intent" of Renegades either which is, analogous to "second+ founding chapters" to allow players to pick up their favorite parts of the background and adapt and change them (i.e. non-TS Rubik Marines or non-Khorne Berzerkers).

Everyone acknowledges a distinction between the two, the difficulty is what differences can be used to characterized and distinguish them in the book and on the tabletop. I think the distinction of Renegade and Legionary are relatively slim ones and there probably isn't really too much to vary the two and if you did it would border on exageration.

Thats why I think the dichotomy Legionary vs Renegade is similar to Chosen vs Chaos Space Marines, as they exist in the current codex. This is with the cavat that I don't really believe Chosen do a good job of representing veteran Chaos Space Marines, and believe that there should be some better unit to represent that. The said stats are pretty much the same, except one has a better leadership value, showing the stricter discipline and better equipment assortment showing less adherence to Imperial doctrine. At the same time I'd say Renegade veterans would probably look more and more like Chosen/Legionaries as time went on. So that isn't enough distinction. The advantage of comparing Legion to Renegades is that one describes a very specific group, the other is more a blanket category. So in distinguishing one from the other it would be about falling back to what made each Legion unique. This could simply be to include in the Chosen a series of upgrades or USRs that go back to the 3.5 representation of the undivided Legions. Thus you have two distinct units. The problem here would be would anyone ever take the Chaos Space Marines unit, if they could take Chosen/Legionaries as troop choice?-Probably not. Thus such an adjusted unit should be an Elite that can be taken as a troop choice under some specific case.

As I've said I don't think Chosen do a good job of representing Chaos veterans. Chosen are really a lazy unit design... in the same vein of laziness as powered armor Grey Knights with teleporting are fast attack choices... GW wanted another unit but didn't want to bother writing rules or making new models. For Chaos there is a steeper slope between "elites" and Lords... that makes it almost seem like some Aspiring champion wakes up one day and poof he's stronger and better than before. While chaos gods might do something like that, its unlikely they'd have such an abrupt transformation. At the same Chaos must have some equivalently capable unit in comparison to Grey Knights and Sternguard/Deathwatch... maybe we should see something at that level of "elite" for our veterans?

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 14:30
This is not nearly the same thing as saying there are just as many Legionaries under Huron as, say, under Typhus.

Which is not what I said.

To quote myself:



World Eaters have as many "new recruits" and "recently fallen" Marines (cue Zufhor") as Red Corsairs have 10.000 year old Eye-of-Terror Veterans who once fought side-to-side with Horus and now flock to the banner of Huron.

Erwos
03-02-2011, 14:37
Which is not what I said.

To quote myself:
Mea culpa. I agree.

Slazton
03-02-2011, 14:41
Zweischneid,

You argue in favor of just removing the legions altogether right? Make the Chaos Space Marine codex just renegades with free roaming warbands who could have been Legion warriors....but you state at the same time the Legions still recruit.

How can you take them out of the factor? Legions are still loyal to their Daemon Prince Primarchs....heck Fulgrim has his own world that Lucious fought in the gladiator arena. I really doubt the Legions don't operate on some level, as a whole. There is years upon years of dogma and a brotherhood that was developed during the HH with the warrior lodges and I doubt those relationships would go entirely sour. Sure maybe 60 out of a 100 marines decided to be a WE is to invite death cause Kharn will cut you down, but not all of them did.

Mono-God armies are Chaos.

Legions are Chaos.

Renegades are Chaos.

The next Codex should encompass all three. I say give you the ability to create roaming warbands not dedicted to a legion or a particular God because that is Chaos.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 14:46
Zweischneid,

You argue in favor of just removing the legions altogether right?

No, I argue in favour of acknowledging Renegades and non-(official)-Legion Chaos Marines as a unique, worthwhile and support-worthy element of Chaos that should be consciously preserved. I don't mind Legion-specific rules, but I do oppose making the Chaos dex a "Codex: Traitor Legions" at the expense of relegating Renegades and other Chaos Warbands to "second-class" Chaos Space Marines.

I do however make the argument with a bit of hyperbole on occasion.


[edit]
Also, World Eaters are abit of a special case because, as just argued in the other case, all existing lore states rather explicitly that the World Eaters disbanded as a legion after Kharn's betrayal at Skalathrax. A "World Eater army" is thus necessarly a "historic" army. There is no such thing as World Eaters in "contemporary" 40K.

Slazton
03-02-2011, 14:52
Ah so we do agree then. I don't want Renegades written out of the codex. I love the new codex for the fact it does inspire awesome Renegade warbands, but even then it still lacks Chaos.

I can't recall who said it earlier, but the next Chaos Codex should focus primarily on Space Marines (with Chaos at the forefront of the mindset, not spikey-marines!), new and old and create a Codex that allows Marine based armies to be produced. May they be Chaos Mono-God Legion/Renegade armies or allow rules for a mixture of Chaos units.

Renegades would have less fear of incuring the wrath of one god because I share the belief Renegades are at the very beginning of the road of damnation. Kind of like how the Black Legion bounced around a lot early on looking for a patron diety and devised a method to allow for possession and to be unpossessed without the host marine dying. This would be represented by Icons instead of Marks. A mark is a solemn pact with your patron diety. To achieve it means you are perma-damned and its either: death, spawndom, or Daemon Prince that awaits you on your road to damnation.

Renegades working with Legion units? Why the hell not? Is it possible Huron makes a deal with a Word Bearer host and the two 'warbands' work closely together to achieve a goal only for it to be achieved and they disband into two warring warbands fighting over it? That just seems like good old Chaos fluff to me.

aka_mythos
03-02-2011, 15:01
Renegades working with Legion units? Why the hell not? Is it possible Huron makes a deal with a Word Bearer host and the two 'warbands' work closely together to achieve a goal only for it to be achieved and they disband into two warring warbands fighting over it? That just seems like good old Chaos fluff to me.Agreed and thats something I think some people lose sight of when they propose all of one and none of the other.

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 17:30
Also, World Eaters are abit of a special case because, as just argued in the other case, all existing lore states rather explicitly that the World Eaters disbanded as a legion after Kharn's betrayal at Skalathrax. A "World Eater army" is thus necessarly a "historic" army. There is no such thing as World Eaters in "contemporary" 40K.


Im aware of all existing fluff stating they are a shattered legion after the battle of Skalathrax where Kharn went all kill crazy and torched the bunkers with a flamer when everybody tried to take cover for the night (night time on some daemon worlds isnt a good time to be on the streets I would imagine). I just found it appropriate to point out how as recent as mid M38 it was still possible to see 50 chapters worth of them all following Angron on one of his little sojourns out of the warp. Its difficult to comprehend how all fluff says they are a shattered Legion but then 1 (still canon and official) piece shows they had an army 50k strong pretty recently.

I cant even imagine a case where the the Imperium were able to pull in 50 chapters worth of marines. Maybe the 13th Black Crusade.

Im glad to see you have shifted your position away from getting rid of the tiresome Legions altogether as well as the Gods so that people could make their own ones up instead.



Oh.. and get rid of those tiresome Legions already and let people make their own fluff and renegades!!! Also, a more generic cult-troop builder so I am not stuck with the "offical 4" and can make my own Chaos Gods + cult marines would be awsome.

Me? I want my Legions, I have no interest whatsoever in spiky bob the pirate and his motley bunch of misfits terrorising shipping lanes in search of plunder whilst singing you ho ho a pirates life for me. If I cant have a pure Legion dex then Ill settle for a 50/50 split between the Legions and renegades. The next book should cater to both parties.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 17:38
Im aware of all existing fluff stating they are a shattered legion after the battle of Skalathrax where Kharn went all kill crazy and torched the bunkers with a flamer when everybody tried to take cover for the night (night time on some daemon worlds isnt a good time to be on the streets I would imagine). I just found it appropriate to point out how as recent as mid M38 it was still possible to see 50 chapters worth of them all following Angron on one of his little sojourns out of the warp. Its difficult to comprehend how all fluff says they are a shattered Legion but then 1 (still canon and official) piece shows they had an army 50k strong pretty recently.


By the same logic that Flesh Tearers are only about 4 companies strong, but in a single battle against the Space Wolves loose "hundreds" of Space Marines. Or how 100 1st company Ultramarines are making a last stance against a planetary-system-invading Tyranid Hive Fleet. Or just generally the common 1000-man Space Marine Chapters are killed by the hundreds every other tuesday and still all live to earn centuries of battle-field experience.

Also, perhaps on a side note, notice how Angron led thousands of "Khorne Berzerkers". He didn't lead thousands of "World Eaters". They might as well have been partly or even in the majority Zufhor-style recent-Berzerkers.


This is GW-typcial number-nonsense. In 40K everything needs to be "thousands" and "billions" and "massive" and "epic". That doesn't mean the numbers have to add up. Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock in GW numbers, especially if the source isn't a Codex but some BL-fiction which has explicitly and purposfully (and only after author protest) been giving creative licence to diverge from "GW-mainstay-fluff" to write stories more in-line with the narrative logic of a novel/story, rather than a table-top-game.

Slazton
03-02-2011, 17:42
I wonder if they make reference to the fact the Ultramarines First Company were assisted by PDF/IG IIRC...and the fact you had the Navy involved. The Ultramarines do 'control' an Empire within the Imperium.....

I ignore the numbers because I view most of the source material for background to be either army biasis, cool because it sounds cool or its written by the victors.........

With the Armageddom campgain though, it does state the numbers consistently. Angron was going to rip that planet to shreds if it had not been for the sacrifice of hundreds of Grey Knights. Lots of unknown heroes died that day.....

aka_mythos
03-02-2011, 17:43
... I just found it appropriate to point out how as recent as mid M38 it was still possible to see 50 chapters worth of them all following Angron on one of his little sojourns out of the warp. Its difficult to comprehend how all fluff says they are a shattered Legion but then 1 (still canon and official) piece shows they had an army 50k strong pretty recently... You're talking about a Legion that was once double that. I'd just take it shattered to mean they don't formally organize themselves as a Legion and a significant number choose not to associate with the rest for whatever reason. Even of those 50K how many were members who regularly followed Angron and how many heard "the boss is back" and came running back after a couple centuries/millenium of "on your own time" savagery?

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 17:47
Absolutely we shouldnt put much stock into the actual numbers themselves (othewise we start finding things like thousands of tanks fighting a titan legion) but when we talk about 1 particular battle where one marine shattered an entire Legion then we also have to acknowledge the numbers showing this isnt necessarily the case. We cant gloss over it because it doesnt go with where we stand on an issue.

Kharns actions shattered the WE Legion and split them up into little warbands.......except as recent as mid m38 there was an army 50 chapters strong rampaging around but lets not put any faith in GW number nonsense.

We might not like the numbers involved but they are there and canonical, we cant forget about them just because they are absurdly high.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 17:47
With the Armageddom campgain though, it does state the numbers consistently. Angron was going to rip that planet to shreds if it had not been for the sacrifice of hundreds of Grey Knights. Lots of unknown heroes died that day.....

How is even the sacrifice of "hundreds" of Grey Knights gonna stop over 50.000 Berzerkers + Primarch turned major-Daemon Prince + associated non-Berzerker-parts of the force (Daemons, etc..).

If those numbers make sense to you, they certainly don't make sense to me.

Also, lets not forget, this is the Appearance of a Primarch no less. If Guilliman would awake, Russ would re-appear or the Lion walk forth again, the "normal" 1000-Marine Chapter limit too would be null and void as the appropriate Chapters would unite/merge along with a generous helping of Marines "appearing" just to bump the numbers to "Primarch-worthy" heights.

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 18:32
Also, perhaps on a side note, notice how Angron led thousands of "Khorne Berzerkers". He didn't lead thousands of "World Eaters". They might as well have been partly or even in the majority Zufhor-style recent-Berzerkers.

Should have noticed this earlier but Ill cover it now:



In the mid-38th Millenium Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, rampaged from the Eye of Terror at the head of an army of fifty thousand Khorne Berserkers. For nearly two hundred years the World Eaters burned and slaughtered their way across three dozen star systems. Behind the vanguard of the Blood Gods chosen, other warbands followed, looting everything not destroyed by Angrons horde. In the wake of the carnage, the flames of war and rebellion burned across seventy sectors for a further two and a half centuries and saw the deaths of countless Imperial servants. Many Imperial Commanders threw of the yoke of the Emperors rule and petty warlords reigned over the cowering populace. Eventually four Space Marine Chapters, two Titan Legions and over thirty Imperial Guard regiments crusaded to cleanse the fallen worlds. After a total of seven centuries. ninety percent of the affected sectors were more under Imperial law and the Dominion of Fire was brought to an end.

So notice how not only did he lead an army 50k strong of Khorne berserkers the words "World Eaters" are actually used. Its like whoever wrote that part thinks "World Eaters" and "Khorne berserker" are interchangeable. Unless of course you would like to argue how there might have been say 5k WE and 45k of the above mentioned "other warbands following the vanguards wake"

These hundreds of GK didnt have to wade through 50k berserkers (Armageddon wasnt part of the Dominion of Fire anyway), countless cultists, daemons and bloodthirsters to get to Angron. Indeed they wernt even alone as there were a vast number of IG and other SM on Armageddon at the time and the great thing about teleporting troops? You dont need to wade through countless enemies to get to their leader if you can teleport down next to him while you allies are attacking the enemy troops.

Zweischneid
03-02-2011, 19:06
Should have noticed this earlier but Ill cover it now:




So notice how not only did he lead an army 50k strong of Khorne berserkers the words "World Eaters" are actually used. Its like whoever wrote that part thinks "World Eaters" and "Khorne berserker" are interchangeable. Unless of course you would like to argue how there might have been say 5k WE and 45k of the above mentioned "other warbands following the vanguards wake"


Alright, my bad.

I still think it would have made (a little) more sense if, despite trying to re-unite the World Eaters, he would've drawn any Berzerker to justify the ridiculous number of 50K, but I guess it is written as "World Eaters".

Mannimarco
03-02-2011, 19:22
Blame the codex itself and the idea that "all World Eaters are berserkers but not all berserkers are World Eaters"

No doubt there were other Khorne worshipping warbands there as well as the motley bunch of pirates under the command of spiky bob the fallen ultramarine in search of plunder but it was the World Eaters show with these other warbands nothing more than an "also featuring".

Interestingly enough this "Dominion of Fire" seems to have done more damage than a Black Crusade, thats kinnda funny although it does mean in the grand scheme of codex creep and fluff escalation the next Chaos book will need to outshine this one meaning we will see some truly ridiculous feats and numbers being thrown around.

TheMav80
04-02-2011, 03:00
I'm going to just copy/paste what I said in the other one:


I actually think the Chaos Marines should work more like a Tyrannid book. With several large monsters (daemons, daemon princes, daemon engines), a couple elite units (the actual space marine squads and cult units), then your cheap screening units (cultists and summoned lesser daemons).

I don't think it will step on the toes of the Tyranids too much, because the army aesthetics will be so different even if the army theme is fairly similar.

Notanoob
04-02-2011, 04:20
Pray you don't end up like the Tyranid dex did in the fluff department. I don't think that you can take another blow to your fluff like that, it would become completely ludicrous.

For that matter, hope you don't end up like us rules wise, you'd probably have even worse internal balancing then your current dex and more redundant/useless wargear and rules than 3.5 did.

TheMav80
04-02-2011, 06:28
I'll take the Nids over the CSM any day of the week in their current incarnations. No hesitation.

In fact, once my Night Lords are done I have been kicking around ideas for a CSM army using the 'Nid book ever since I first had the idea that they should have the same play style.

Xandros
04-02-2011, 07:27
Pray you don't end up like the Tyranid dex did in the fluff department. I don't think that you can take another blow to your fluff like that, it would become completely ludicrous.

For that matter, hope you don't end up like us rules wise, you'd probably have even worse internal balancing then your current dex and more redundant/useless wargear and rules than 3.5 did.

I rage. What the hell? CSM fluff is awesome, if not comprehensive.

Tyranid rules are also awesome. Problem is people expect them to play more like orks than eldar.

Dvora
04-02-2011, 07:45
I feel about the same Xandros, I didn't have a problem with the Tyranid dex.

Zweischneid
04-02-2011, 07:55
I actually think the Chaos Marines should work more like a Tyrannid book. With several large monsters (daemons, daemon princes, daemon engines), a couple elite units (the actual space marine squads and cult units), then your cheap screening units (cultists and summoned lesser daemons).

I don't think it will step on the toes of the Tyranids too much, because the army aesthetics will be so different even if the army theme is fairly similar.

That would be the worst IMO. Chaos Marines are nothing like Chaos in Fantasy or Chaos more generally. They are the "dark mirror" of the Loyalist Marines, the "brother vs. brother" theme and all that is the very key to Chaos Space Marines. As such, they should play like a "dark mirror" to Loyalist Space Marines: always. Large Monsters/Engines or cheap screening can be sprinkled in to add different flavours, but I wouldn't want to see them become anymore common/mainstream than they are already now.

Dvora
04-02-2011, 08:15
That would be the worst IMO. Chaos Marines are nothing like Chaos in Fantasy or Chaos more generally. They are the "dark mirror" of the Loyalist Marines, the "brother vs. brother" theme and all that is the very key to Chaos Space Marines. As such, they should play like a "dark mirror" to Loyalist Space Marines: always. Large Monsters/Engines or cheap screening can be sprinkled in to add different flavours, but I wouldn't want to see them become anymore common/mainstream than they are already now.

Then I have one request. Dreadclaws, please!

HK-47
04-02-2011, 09:33
I was been thinking of things that I would like to see in the Chaos Codex for a while, and I would like to share my thoughts without making a new thread so I figure I put it here. This should only be consider my opinion and since I'm not an expert at the game can be completely wrong.

This is my wish list.

Fluff:

I don’t like that the new codex focus almost entirely on renegades, and basically Marine pirates. I feel that the Fluff should be more expansive, so I thought of dividing the Fluff into two parts. Part one would be about the Chaos Gods, Warp Rifts, and Daemon worlds. The Chaos Gods should have at least a page each to talk about them; there is a lot of really great stuff about the four Gods so there is no excuse for them to have only a paragraph or two about them or be given crazy new fluff. Then a small section talking about the large Warp Rifts, and important Daemon worlds, and what’s it like living on them. The second part would be about the Long War, with a time line that starts around the events of Isstvan III and ends with the 13th Black Crusade. Also some detailed accounts of some of the major events that took place, like the Gothic War, the Badab War, and the First War for Armageddon. Also summaries of the legions, large war bands, and the Dark Mechanicum.

Rules:

“Glory to Chaos!”: Basically the same as the Icon of Chaos Glory but would be a rule that all non Fearless units would have.

Icons: You would have two types of Icons one would be your normal personal icon, and then your dedicated icons. The dedicated icons would work the same they do now but instead of just giving the squad a mark of chaos it will also give a buff to all units, of the same mark as the icon, within a certain range. I envision them as being the 40k version of the Fantasy Warshire; they can be carried Chaos Space Marines, Heretics, and Bikers.

The marks of chaos a dedicated icon give would be the same as they are now.

Marks of Chaos: These are the marks cult units have and can be bought by Daemon Princes, Chaos Lord Sorcerer, Alchemists, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs.

All units given a Mark replace “Glory to Chaos!” for Fearless.

Mark of Khorne: +WS, +1 attack, Furious Charge, gains access to hand flamers and infernus pistols. The Sorcerer cannot buy this mark, the Daemon Prince, Possessed and Alchemist cannot buy the pistols.

Mark of Nurgle: +1 T, -1 I, Feel no Pain, Blight Grenades.

Mark of Tzeentch: +1 to Invulnerable saves (with current restriction); Inferno Bolts (all bolt weapons get it so AP 3 Havoc heavy bolters), Daemon Princes and Sorcerers can take, and use two psychic powers with the same restrictions as now.

Mark of Slaanesh: +1 I, gains access to sonic weaponry. The Daemon Prince, Possessed, and Alchemist cannot us sonic weaponry.

Vehicles would also be able to become marked; they will have different effects then the Infantry versions, and would unlock new or replace upgrades that the vehicle can get.

Daemonic Gifts: Similar to the Daemon Codex, but not exactly the same options, would be unique to Daemon units (Daemon Prince, Possessed, Greater Daemons, and Lesser Daemons). Since the Daemon Prince, and Possessed can be mark they can take less gifts then the Daemons who are instead dedicated (gets the icon version of the marks) and then gets gifts from the patron god. This allows people to field god align daemons, but are different then the ones in the Daemon Codex.

Daemon Weapons: Same rules as now, but a lot more of them, at least two undivided and two for each god.

Daemonic Steeds: Rework so that they are similar to the ones in the Daemon Codex.

Units:

Daemonic Engines: One for each god plus the Defiler. The Blight Drone and Blood Slaughterer, for Nurgle and Khorne, and something like the Doomwing and Hell Strider for Tzeentch and Slaanesh. The idea is that each Gods vehicle would have an opposite, so Nurgle’s and Tzeentch’s are skimmers with one being anti-armor and the other being anti-infantry, and Slaanesh’s and Khorn’s are walkers one again being anti-armor and the other being anti-infantry. The Defiler would stay the same, and would be the “Jack of all Trades” vehicle.

Heretics: The same stats and options as the Disciples of the Xaphan from the FW Renegades and Heretics army list, but loss one special weapon option for the ability to take an icon; also no autoguns.

Chosen: Become more like the Wolf Guard in terms of how they can be equipped, this allows you to field cult bikers or cult terminators. Can take one veteran skill, their choices can be restricted based on war gear and mark.

Havocs: They can take four special or heavy weapons; can also take one veteran skill. Relentless wouldn’t be one of them.

Raptors: They can no longer be marked, but are Fearless. They gain the Hit & Run special rule, and the Daemonic Visage rule, which would work like the Sanguinary Guard Death Mask, and the Eldar Banshee Mask.

Sorcerers: Redone to be a hybrid of the Eldar Farseer and the SW Rune priest. He would work around the concept of Daemonic Pacts; he makes pacts with different types of daemons to increase his own power or hider his opponents. Think of it like the Farseer runes, and Ghosthelm. However like the Daemon weapon if he’s not careful they will turn on him. If he suffers from Perils of the Warp then he suffers from various maladies as his bound daemons attempt to steal his soul.

Alchemists: Think of them as your local neighborhood Fabius Bile. A mix of the Dark Eldar Homunculi, and the Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest, they are basically freelance apothecaries. Fluff wise as the Long War continues and the war bands spend more time in the warp gene seed is starting to become too mutated to work properly. Following Bile’s example many former apothecaries have started trying to unlock the secrets of the gene seed and how the Emperor created the Primarchs. They work for the war bands and legions as apothecaries, for a price, treating the wounded and overseeing the implant of gene seed into new recruits, the gene seed is often stolen from a loyalist chapter, but they also use their expertise in biology and genetics to create different kinds of toxins, viruses, drugs, cybernetic implants, and biological weapons. Rule wise they will have special war gear options that they can get depended on the mark they gives him all sorts of weird abilities that helps the squad he is attached too.

Dark Tech Priest: A representative of the Dark Mechanicum, they follow the forces of Chaos when they attack the Imperium or the Xeno races, for a chance to steal technology from them and use it in their new daemon engines and vehicles. They maintain the traitor titan legions, and the war machines of the legions; basically the tech priest with the ability to take crazy chaos items.

Dedicated Transports: The Chimera, Rhino, Land Raider, and Dread Claw assault pod, they won’t be able to get the Razor Back, but they can be mark and take god specific upgrades.

Special Characters: All the ones they are in the book now plus an Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Night Lord, and Alpha Legion character.

There is some more stuff but this took forever for me to write, so I’m ending it here.

Zweischneid
04-02-2011, 09:50
Fluff:

I don’t like that the new codex focus almost entirely on renegades, and basically Marine pirates.

....

Special Characters: All the ones they are in the book now plus an Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Night Lord, and Alpha Legion character.

There is some more stuff but this took forever for me to write, so I’m ending it here.

Are you serious? Go get the current Codex and do a page-count on how much there is on the Heresy and the Long War compared to how much there is on Renegades (16 pages compared to 1 actually, maybe two if you count pictures of paint-schemes).

The same goes with Special Characters. The book has only one (!) special character out of six that is not Heresy/Legion-related, and that is Huron. The book is Legion-biased as can be. If new SCs are added and a balanced approach between Legions and Renegades is the goal (which is not dropping the Legions), we need at least 4 or so non-Legion/Heresy-related SCs like, for example, Constantinus the Liberator, not more Legion-characters, in order to get the Renegades at at least on somewhat equal (but not dominating) footing.

Dvora
04-02-2011, 09:52
An alpha legion special character? Who the heck could they use?

Souleater
04-02-2011, 12:03
Tyranid rules are also awesome. Problem is people expect them to play more like orks than eldar.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. :wtf:

Bob Hunk
04-02-2011, 12:26
An alpha legion special character? Who the heck could they use?

"Alpharius", clearly. ;)

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 15:06
An alpha legion special character? Who the heck could they use?


"Alpharius", clearly. ;)

Try more like Kernax Voldorius, Sheed Ranko, Ingo Pech, Arkos the Faithless, or even Matthias Herzog

Castigator
04-02-2011, 15:14
Try more like Kernax Voldorius, Sheed Ranko, Ingo Pech, Arkos the Faithless, or even Matthias Herzog

We liked the book as much as you obviously did, but these guys are dead and dust 10.000 years before the time Chaos Codex is supposed to represent. A few of those even pre-date the Heresy!! Indeed, we know next to nothing about how those guys ended up after they became Chaos Space Marines if they became Chaos Space Marines at all.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 15:27
We liked the book as much as you obviously did, but these guys are dead and dust 10.000 years before the time Chaos Codex is supposed to represent. A few of those even pre-date the Heresy!! Indeed, we know next to nothing about how those guys ended up after they became Chaos Space Marines if they became Chaos Space Marines at all.

And that's exactly WHY they could be used. I seem to remember that Eldrad is dead also, yet he's listed as playable in the Eldar book, so there's not like there isn't precedent. Also remember that Abbadon, Kharn, and Arhiman are over 10K years old also, so it is possible that one of the original AL survived this long. It only needs fluff to explain why they did so.

That being said, Voldorius as a DP is closer to "our" timeline as is Arkos from Vraks.

TheMav80
04-02-2011, 17:14
That would be the worst IMO. Chaos Marines are nothing like Chaos in Fantasy or Chaos more generally. They are the "dark mirror" of the Loyalist Marines, the "brother vs. brother" theme and all that is the very key to Chaos Space Marines. As such, they should play like a "dark mirror" to Loyalist Space Marines: always. Large Monsters/Engines or cheap screening can be sprinkled in to add different flavours, but I wouldn't want to see them become anymore common/mainstream than they are already now.

And we can agree to disagree, obviously. Here is where I am coming from though.

I think that Chaos Marines need to be as different as possible from their loyalist counter parts. I agree with you when you say that they are a dark mirror to the Imperium. Thats all cool with me. The problem I see is that if you stick too close (as I feel the last book has) all you end up with is Spiky Marines with a different paint job.

They really need to feel and play different because of all the other marine books already out there. If we only had one loyalist book to contend with it wouldn't be as much of a problem. With five other Space Marine books and another on the way (grey knights) Chaos Marines need something different. I think that something different is a play style similar to Tyranids.

They already have large monsters with Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. They already have one daemon engine with the Defiler and I, would argue, the Dreadnought. Adding in a cheap cultist unit to the Troops section wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe even make them non-scoring or something.

They are going to need new units in a new book anyway. Loyalists have gotten new a new land speeder, new Dreads, new land raider varients. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to get some new vehicles that are more of a daemon engine.

Lord Inquisitor
04-02-2011, 17:24
I think the key here Zweischneid is that we need to think about how things work on two levels - the background and the tabletop.

I think you're idea of the 'dark mirror' is cool and works very well in the stories. Several examples of Marines meeting their Chaos counterparts and trying to work out how they got there. There's so much more you can do with that than Kill! Maim! Burn! repeat ad nauseum.

Problem is that it doesn't translate to the tabletop. In Dark Heresy or Inquisitor you might be able to represent this, but in a 40K army, differences have to be exaggerated to be noticable at all. As the Mav says, they'd be marines with a different paint job.

For example, take the Inquisition. Can you represent the levels of intrigue or factionalism in the Inquisition on the tabletop? No. You might be able to show the most diametric extremes - Horusians and Monodominants - to get a bit of the factionalism in there, but that's about it. Trying to show all the levels of intrigue within the Inquisition on the tabletop not only isn't necessary, it'd be a lousy codex.

I like, for example, your descriptions of fragmented warbands roaming the galaxy. Sounds cool. But on the tabletop I want my army to have a cohesive theme and paint scheme, so I theme them as Emperor's Children in a single paint scheme. At the tabletop level it is far more impressive as an army. A ragtag band of different chaos marines with independent origins just would look like a mess.

The background is one thing and as deep as a "dark mirror" theme might be in principle, on the tabletop the Chaos marines need to be chaotic to differentiate the army in gameplay. We need more possessed, nutter dreadnoughts, daemons, daemonic engines and so on. Sure the list needs to permit a less freakshow build, but these are the elements that really make the Chaos list what it should be on the tabletop, and this is what most players want. Legions allow for distinctive themed armies, which is why they're so popular, so the list really needs to allow this sort of build to be functional.

Zweischneid
04-02-2011, 17:51
I think the key here Zweischneid is that we need to think about how things work on two levels - the background and the tabletop.

I think you're idea of the 'dark mirror' is cool and works very well in the stories. Several examples of Marines meeting their Chaos counterparts and trying to work out how they got there. There's so much more you can do with that than Kill! Maim! Burn! repeat ad nauseum.

Problem is that it doesn't translate to the tabletop. In Dark Heresy or Inquisitor you might be able to represent this, but in a 40K army, differences have to be exaggerated to be noticable at all. As the Mav says, they'd be marines with a different paint job.

For example, take the Inquisition. Can you represent the levels of intrigue or factionalism in the Inquisition on the tabletop? No. You might be able to show the most diametric extremes - Horusians and Monodominants - to get a bit of the factionalism in there, but that's about it. Trying to show all the levels of intrigue within the Inquisition on the tabletop not only isn't necessary, it'd be a lousy codex.

I like, for example, your descriptions of fragmented warbands roaming the galaxy. Sounds cool. But on the tabletop I want my army to have a cohesive theme and paint scheme, so I theme them as Emperor's Children in a single paint scheme. At the tabletop level it is far more impressive as an army. A ragtag band of different chaos marines with independent origins just would look like a mess.

The background is one thing and as deep as a "dark mirror" theme might be in principle, on the tabletop the Chaos marines need to be chaotic to differentiate the army in gameplay. We need more possessed, nutter dreadnoughts, daemons, daemonic engines and so on. Sure the list needs to permit a less freakshow build, but these are the elements that really make the Chaos list what it should be on the tabletop, and this is what most players want. Legions allow for distinctive themed armies, which is why they're so popular, so the list really needs to allow this sort of build to be functional.

While I can see the points, I do not think these necessarly all undermine implementation on the battlefield.

Visually: The recent White Dwarf featured a stunning Dark Angels Army, Green, White & Black Marines with red highlights, silver/and metal-coloured parts, + battle damage. Eldar armies are another traditional army using many differently-painted aspect-units. Sure, working an interesting colour-combination, including cross-painting major-colours on one unit as highlights on another and vice-verse is a more involved hobby-task that just doing Yellow-&-Black Imperial Fists and being done with it. But it is also more rewarding and, in the end, would underscore the emphasis of Chaos for slightly more mature/involved players than the more newcomer-friendly uni-colour-spraypaint + contrast-colour of Loyalist Marines.

Similarly, I don't think being conceptually different from Loyalist Marines needs to highjack Horde/MC-army-concepts. While using Marine-minis, I think it is perfectly possible to create a distinct play-style for Chaos Marines.

Emphasis (and point-incentives) for "less controlable" units like Dreads or Possessed, Emphasis (and point-incentives) for "mixed-God-lists", different leadership-rules (rage has now gone to BA, but working in that line), along with the according drawbacks/differences like, perhaps once again, animosity, less "control" over parts of the army and more "specialized" Marine-units (Assault-Berzerkers, Anti-Infantry-TS, Defensive-Plaque-Marines) that require a slightly more "Eldar-style" strategy of combination compared to the more all-round Loyalists would set them appart in the play-style as much as the "mixed-visuals" does aesthetically, all without resorting to the simplistic shortcut of Monters & Cannonfodder.

Infact, building a Chaos Space Marine Army lists that goes to active lenghts to encourage tactically/stragically a "combined-arms-approach" across the different Gods & Cults as the "most effective" list would be a great opportunity to combat the most persistent flaw haunting Power-Armour Codexes (and others) these days: i.e. the uninspired, repetitive spam of MSU and the most cost-effective FoC-entry ad nauseum.

thanoson
04-02-2011, 18:23
Please tell me you're being sarcastic. :wtf:

Umm... I do just fine with my tyranids. I think the rules are pretty balanced, though I still don't know why they nerfed SITW and made the Alpha Prime walk. That aside, tyranids if played right are very strong in overcoming specific threats. Toxin sacs on hormogants is probably the best thing ever. Is that a wraithlord? Not a problem. They are thin and can't take a shot. Just like eldar. Choose your targets wisely and don't just run in. They work.

Mannimarco
04-02-2011, 18:26
For the Alpha Legion character you really should try Arkos.

Existing character with existing rules, I see no problem with a straight transplant over from IA to codex.

HK-47
05-02-2011, 06:42
Are you serious? Go get the current Codex and do a page-count on how much there is on the Heresy and the Long War compared to how much there is on Renegades (16 pages compared to 1 actually, maybe two if you count pictures of paint-schemes).

The same goes with Special Characters. The book has only one (!) special character out of six that is not Heresy/Legion-related, and that is Huron. The book is Legion-biased as can be. If new SCs are added and a balanced approach between Legions and Renegades is the goal (which is not dropping the Legions), we need at least 4 or so non-Legion/Heresy-related SCs like, for example, Constantinus the Liberator, not more Legion-characters, in order to get the Renegades at at least on somewhat equal (but not dominating) footing.

Actually for the legions only the Horus Heresy is talked about in detail. The "Long War" section immediately sates that the Legions have broken into war bands and them talks about Renegades and the Constantius Iconoclasm. After that only small engagements or inter fighting between war bands are talked about. The Black Crusades only get two paragraphs at the end of the section. Only the Black Legion is talked about in detail, we only get the paint schemes for the other legions/war bands, in the space marine codex a good six pages is dedicated to describe the various codex chapters, see the "Codex Chapters" section on page 24-29, where many chapters have their paint scheme and a little info about them given. I feel the chaos legions/war bands should be given the same treatment.

I also feel that Chaos in 40k should be become more like it is in Fantasy, in Fantasy Chaos isn't just Empire with spikes, it's it own unique faction. Chaos in 40k has been become Imperial with spikes it needs to become its own thing. The less it's like a Space Marine codex the better, but at the same time it has to have units and rules that is common with them, since the faction evolved out of the Horus Heresy. I try to think of it as this, one side is the Space Marine codex and the other is the Daemon Codex. The Chaos Marine codex as to stay in the middle if it's too close to one side it becomes just Space Marines with spikes, if it becomes too close to the other to be called "Chaos Marines".

Also, sorry I keep saying also, I feel the dichotomy between Legions and War Bands is a false one. You can have the two exist in the Fluff with no problem at all. You think there should be more non legion special characters in the codex? That’s fine! I put those in my wish list because those where the first to pop into my head. Who says they cannot coexist, Gav Thorpe? Like he cares! The fact of the matter is that if the mortal armies of chaos want to pose a true threat to the Imperium they need to be organized, that’s what the Legions are. At the same time you can have guys that just want to travel the galaxy and smash stuff, raid planets for loot, or just hang out with like minded people and go carry out some lovecraftian agenda that has nothing to do with anything with Abaddon, or anyone else, that’s what war bands are. Think of it has the relationship between the British Union of Fascists, and the Taisei Yokusankai; both where fascist groups that spread, or wanted to spread, Fascists ideals in their countries, but they never meet each other or took orders from a larger group.

AlphariusOmegon20
05-02-2011, 14:51
For the Alpha Legion character you really should try Arkos.

Existing character with existing rules, I see no problem with a straight transplant over from IA to codex.

True, but it seems almost lazy to use a character in a codex that's already printed in a FW book.

Slazton
05-02-2011, 15:09
I wouldn't mind seeing a rnadom non-Marine Daemon Prince character, but I'm wishlisting here. More suited for a Lost and Damned army.....

I believe Special Characters should be squad upgrades like how Chaos Daemons and other armies have special characters. Imagine Doomrider being back as a Slaaneshi upgrade for Noise Bikers.....

duffybear1988
05-02-2011, 15:31
Personally I would rather have a new LoTD list and scratch out all the basic CSM and Daemons armies.

After so long there just aren't going to be so many chaos marines around and living/raiding in the warp is the best place to get meatshields(recruits) for their cause.

The chaos forces should work as one cohesive list which has plenty of variation and lots of cool toys... just sticking in traitor guard won't do!

I want to field the hordes of mutants, heretics and chaos worshippers from the eye of terror, with chaos marine elites, being led by a daemon prince with daemonic shock troops and hulking dark mechanicus constructs for support...

Pretty much what any chaos army should look like!

Luthor's Shadow
05-02-2011, 20:22
The issue with this is that Chaos Space Marines might not be numbered, but there are plenty of them. In a Galactic universe, with so many billions upon billions of people making up just a small fraction of the human race and so many Space Marine chapters, plus the untold number of how many Marines were in one given Traitor Marine Legion at one time......Then you factor in the warping effects of Chaos with lifespan, possible ressurrection, and the fact Legions/Renegades still 'recruit' human soldiers...I think GW is making the right choice in allowing all Chaos Marine warbands.

The Lost and Damned are a fluff army that will require a complete worked list with units etc. Sure they have the plastics now, but it would be a cheap fix and be nothing but re-cuts with 'Chaos Spikes' .... If GW do a Lost and Damned army, it'll probably take a good bit because it will have to be its own army and have its range of models. If its just repackaged IG boxes with Chaos Sprues .... it won't have a lot attention. The army itself should be standalone and if have any Chaos Marines or Daemons be a very limited choice that are 'fluff additions' rather then have to be in every single army because nothing else on the list will achieve the punch those units provide.

I will just sum up my point for a new Chaos Codex.

Allow for a theme and for the player to pick their armies path of damnation. Is your character a warring ex-Ultramarine that killed other champions and conquerored different warbands and through his sheer ego keeps the army together? Or was your army a World Eater company that has perserved through the Eternal War against the Imperium?

By allowing certain choices to affect how your army is limited will not only shape your army's tactics, but also the theme and character. Chose your Lord choice and go from there. Bring back God specific gifts and vehicle up-grades and allow for Mono-God armies to reign in the limelight next to their Renegade warband brethren.........

May Insanity Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

terradax
05-02-2011, 20:54
I would like the next codex to be like the current SM codex. Vanilla, with several Special Characters that boosts the entire army. We could have like a Warsmith that gives any unit he joins Tank hunters, or he has Bolster Defences. A Night Lord commander should make all lightning claws master crafted, Alpha Legion gives Infiltrate etc. All first founding legions should be covered: Iron Warriors, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords etc.

As for Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children they should all get a new codex each (since Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars do).

0-1 unit of either berserkers, plaguemarines, thousand sons, and/or noise marines should be available in a vanilla CSM army. Including Abbadon should lift this restriction since he has united several legions for a Black Crusade before.

Daemons should be undivided in the Vanilla codex, but for the specific they should be like Codex Daemons, but 0-1. For example, A World Eaters army can include up to one unit of Bloodletters, and they will have the exact same rules as in Codex Chaos Daemons, but upgrades may not be used.

Luthor's Shadow
05-02-2011, 21:03
Splitting up Chaos Space Marines and the Cult Legions into Cult Legion specific books will not work. Keep Chaos Space Marines in one codex. We are superior to Space Marines because we only need one codex to define our army, while they need sixteen codexes to forge similar armies with rules based on their fluff.........Its just a GW cash-in.

Cult Legion codexes would just ruin the concept of Chaos and be nothing short of revinue generating. There is not enough fluff, background, army list, etc to make a God Codex and if GW did, it would hurt because it would forever divorce all the armies. Keep it in one codex.

Special Characters do not need to overfill the army lists and should stick to the five we have now and maybe two new characters to create diversity. Personally would prefer a Dark Apostle SC, but if they just give me the choice through wargear upgrade, then all is well. Bring back my Accursed Cronus...

May Insanity Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

TheMav80
05-02-2011, 23:17
Why do you need a cursed crozium? It is just a power weapon. Model your guy with a crozium and call it a power weapon. Done and done.

Slazton
05-02-2011, 23:53
The cursed Crozium also gave a 4+ Invunerability save and counted as a personal icon for summoning purposes. Useful tool and is the anti to the Chaplain's own Cronus......

aka_mythos
06-02-2011, 00:03
A cursed crozium was a power weapon that doesn't mean it would be again. I think we'll see daemon weapons on the rise in the codex, as we see daemons as tech driving those and daemon engines into greater prominence. A cursed crozium could easily be re-imagined as something that taps into those same or similar infernal powers.

Simply not all legions and sub-factions of Chaos are equal and so I don't think they should all get the same degree of representation. Look at the Space Marine's codex, the closest thing to representing the Iron Hands, is just taking a Master of the Forge as your HQ choice... not every Legion requires a special character to get the point across. Night lords are rather basic and aside from a USR were never that distinctive, while the other undivided legions had a Dark Apostle, and a Warsmith; a Arch-Heretic would be a good cross over representative for LatD and Alpha Legion... do all those need special characters?-I don't think so. The chaos HQ choices are all a bit confused and don't really work to support armies in clear roles to the same degree as other armies. A rework of them could see the inclusion of different abilities and different upgrades to accomplish these roles.

DuskRaider
06-02-2011, 02:23
Just a quick response on Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, etc... Most of these don't seem that different because GW never really fleshed the rules out for them.

I could definitely see rules for Night Lords giving them interesting options, like a weapon or whatever that's similar to Lash Whips, the ability to Drop Pod ON your enemy, a lot of options that effect Leadership or drop enemy stats.

Alpha Legion would be about taking the game's rules and standing them on their head. HQs hidden in units that are only revealed when that unit assaults, ways to cause the enemy to attack themselves, deny the enemy from attacking you (they think you're an them), Operatives which would most likely be Stormtroopers from IG, the ability to take your army in Valkyries, etc.

Word Bearers could have a lot of Daemons & Daemon tech. Make everyone else limit what Daemons they can take depending on their Mark except for WBs. Give them a Grimoire of True Names which allows them to bind an enemy's daemons to them (if only for a round). Traitor Guard who are Fearless, Chaplain Dreadnoughts which count as Icons, etc... There are a lot of things you CAN do with the Undivided Legions, it really all comes down to how much thought GW can or will put into it. Which unfortunately isn't much, considering the Traitor Legions have a lot more variation (even with their limited background and previous options) then their Loyalist counterparts.

Slazton
06-02-2011, 03:13
I think the issue with Chaos is the fact its extremely diverse and GW tried to simply it with this current Codex. They are realizing they sucked it down to nothing. There is no real Chaos in the Chaos Codex other then spikey-marines and Daemons with no marks and one Daemon Engine.

The other problem is the fact they might go overboard and create a codex that makes 3.5 seem like this codex. I want GW to be wary of this because it will only lead to the downfall of the Chaos Codex and make it either extremely confusing or over the top.

A healthy balance of 3.5 and this current Codex with maybe two new Daemon Engines, one 'tank' as a heavy choice and another 'walker' as an elite choice, Chaos God Gifts and Undivided Gifts, two new special characters, and up-grades to existing squads to make them effective like Chosen and Possessed.

aka_mythos
06-02-2011, 04:25
Just a quick response on Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, etc... Most of these don't seem that different because GW never really fleshed the rules out for them... Yeah and nothing compares to what you can imagine... but they were never intended to be that diverse... they wrote 4th because the regretted doing too much and putting too much emphasis on Legions.

You can't reasonably expect 9+ codices in one. This is one of the things GW wanted to get away from by simplifying into 4th and while the pendulum will swing back, it will never go as far.

Luthor's Shadow
06-02-2011, 06:16
It is a shame that so much was missed out of this codex. I understand what GW was attempting to do and it works as a 'mid-codex' between 3.5 and the one that is hopefully going to be released in three to four years. I don't mind the wait. I can build workable armies from the current codex and hang in there.

Just don't yell at me if I go against my usual army of Slaanesh and decide to use what units would give me success rather then fit into my original theme. I was really pleased to have Renegade forces as an option, but with Noise Marines being redudant in terms of cost compared to Plague Marines, I will not hesitate.

My current army at 1500pts has a marked Slaaneshi Lord in Termie armor with a retinue of Termies with an Icon of Slaanesh. Only one other unit in my army has an Icon of Slaanesh while I have Cult Plague Marines as my standard troop choice and Obliterators. Now if I could have back my Noise Marine Havocs and probably combat drugs and/or feel no pain for my Noise Marines the options would be successful.

The Word Bearer army I forged died when my Possessed lost their daemonic claws and the expendable nature of the daemons. I enjoyed using units of Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Bloodletters for all-out killer units. Anything Daemon in my Word Bearer army was not intended to be used for objectives, but with a solid objective of killing everything in its path. The troops and my Lord went for objectives. Usually worked unless my Daemons arrived early....

May Insanity Grace your Day

Luthor's Shadow

Mr. Ultra
06-02-2011, 09:18
It is a shame that so much was missed out of this codex. I understand what GW was attempting to do and it works as a 'mid-codex' between 3.5 and the one that is hopefully going to be released in three to four years.

I sincerely think that we don't have to wait that long. The reason is simple, the current Chaos Codex will turn 4 years old the next September. The popular amries get a new Codex every 4/5 years, and the current one is rubbish and is almost universally rejected by the fanbase community (also, I'm sure that Chaos has lowered in sales these last four years due to the blandess and boredom of the book). And the definitive reason: Chaos Space Marines are MARINES. IMO our Codex will be the last for 2011 or the first for 2012.

Nazguire
06-02-2011, 09:56
I sincerely think that we don't have to wait that long. The reason is simple, the current Chaos Codex will turn 4 years old the next September. The popular amries get a new Codex every 4/5 years, and the current one is rubbish and is almost universally rejected by the fanbase community (also, I'm sure that Chaos has lowered in sales these last four years due to the blandess and boredom of the book). And the definitive reason: Chaos Space Marines are MARINES. IMO our Codex will be the last for 2011 or the first for 2012.

I agree here. End of 2011 seems plausible, or even before then if we're lucky.

Dag
06-02-2011, 10:32
Night lords not being different?.... really??... they hate horus too! lol.

Night Lords are probably THE legion that is the most different from the other chaos marines. For the most part (disclaimer!) they hate chaos as much/more than the emperor, but have no choice, but still hate it. Thousand sons had a similar fate but kinda went all emo on that and mass suicided... some didnt drink the KOOLAID!

Excessus
06-02-2011, 10:56
Alpha Legion not different? Didn't they have a whole unit choice of their own in a codex somewhere? Cultists and infiltration?

NL had stealth and fast attack slots, IW had heavy slots and servo arm, and a basilisk...and siege specialists...

WB had an extra ability and the crozius and a ton of daemons...

BL were the only ones that were "vanilla"...

Not to speak of the four god specific legions...

And all this in 25 pages, which included fluff and all the special characters...

Mr. Ultra
06-02-2011, 11:03
Night lords not being different?.... really??... they hate horus too! lol.

Night Lords are probably THE legion that is the most different from the other chaos marines. For the most part (disclaimer!) they hate chaos as much/more than the emperor, but have no choice, but still hate it. Thousand sons had a similar fate but kinda went all emo on that and mass suicided... some didnt drink the KOOLAID!

But all this is only background... And Background is easily retconned... In the current codex Night Lords are simply vanilla chaos marines with some kind of "energy lightnings" in his armours and ludicrous bat-heads. The legions that are REALLY different are the ones with some special hero option (Warsmith for IW, Dark Apostle for WB) and obviously the cult legions.

Excessus
06-02-2011, 11:13
I really liked the veteran skills though, was a great way to show the age and experience of some of the legionnaires...

Azulthar
06-02-2011, 11:14
We'll most likely get Special Characters to represent most Legions, very similar to the Space Marine codex. Wally the Word Bearer will have a cursed Crozium and will give +1 to your Daemon reserve rolls, Nick the Night Lord will allow you to take Raptors as Troops, the Iron Warrior dude will give Extra Armour to all your vehicles, etc.

Perhaps they'll even have restrictions ("only Icons/Marks of Undivided"), but don't expect more than that.

What they really need to change is that "Let no good deed go unpunished" cartoon villain nonsense :mad:

Erwos
06-02-2011, 14:45
I agree here. End of 2011 seems plausible, or even before then if we're lucky.
Never going to happen, IMHO. A Loyalist SM chapter like BTs or DAs would get the slot before Chaos would, and the rest of the year is hopefully going to be updating the 3E codexes.

2012 is a possibility, and if not then, certainly 2013.

Excessus
06-02-2011, 15:07
hopefully my AL won't have to take a special character to be AL...well, it's kinda silly since they are spread all around imperial space, should be a HQ choice, but not SC...

Beppo1234
06-02-2011, 15:23
Never going to happen, IMHO. A Loyalist SM chapter like BTs or DAs would get the slot before Chaos would, and the rest of the year is hopefully going to be updating the 3E codexes.

2012 is a possibility, and if not then, certainly 2013.

DAs were done after Chaos on the last revolution, so that point is pretty moot.

Slashattack
06-02-2011, 17:24
I would say chaos space marines will get released before BTs or DAs, because there are definitely more chaos players than there are BT and DA players. Therefore gamesworkshop would make more money from a chaos space marine launch, and seeing from their 4% decrease in sales this year they are going to need to bring forward the big releases.

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2011, 17:50
By that logic GW would only ever redo Space Marines as they're the most popular army. I wouldn't at all be surprised if black templars got redone before Chaos. What have we got on the radar? Grey Knights, Necrons. Even if Chaos Marines were coming up I'd expect a loyalist release between Necrons and Chaos Marines and BT makes sense.

Lord Nestron
06-02-2011, 17:55
I would like to see the Storm Bird (from the HH series) totally revamped Cult Mariens ( I want something else then Marien with one USR) and more Creative Choices.

The whole Codex needs to be redun in the Stile of Dark Eldar

AlphariusOmegon20
07-02-2011, 01:14
By that logic GW would only ever redo Space Marines as they're the most popular army. I wouldn't at all be surprised if black templars got redone before Chaos. What have we got on the radar? Grey Knights, Necrons. Even if Chaos Marines were coming up I'd expect a loyalist release between Necrons and Chaos Marines and BT makes sense.

Or Sisters maybe.

BigZ
07-02-2011, 03:58
Possesed Cost could remain the same, give them fleet, and add a bonus depending on what Icon they are given on top of the icon bonus. In this way you have some control over what they get and the power sword option is removed (or make them op and give them those too)
Khorne = Furios Charge
Slaanesh = rending
Nurgle = FnP
Tzeentch = Scout

Dreadnoughts. I like the dice roll but the possibility to shoot yourself needs to be removed. But the chart will always make them an unreliable play for any tournament player. I play fluff for fun and good lists for tournaments so i wouldn't mind either way if it was removed. Dreadnoughts would also benefit greatly from drop pods. Hell the current chaos codex lists a CSM army that uses drop pods in a codex that can't use drop pods. Silly.

A new Demon Engine would be enjoyable. Especially, imo, in the somewhat boring FA slot. A demon artillery, as read from the iron warrior books, would work and could make from awesome conversions or a new model, of course this wouldnt be a FA slot. I think the defiler could be put in FA, as its fleet, maybe make the cannon not so good and drop it there.

Adding cultists is a must. They are a large part of the book fluff it seems wrong not to have them, make them awful but we can shoot into CC with them there and any misses rolled auto kill a cultist.

Make Special characters change the army to fit their legion. Make new special characters for the more popular armies that are missing, IE Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers.

wyvirn
07-02-2011, 04:38
I don't know why everyone is so dead set about SC's representing legions. They killed the viability of many chapters in the SM book. It seems that marines like Pedro and Vulkan are so eager to fight that they take place in every battle. One man, fighting on literally every planet in every system. It pushes the bounds of credibility. I think that generic Chaos Lords should have a list of upgrades to choose from, each representing a legion or faction. For example, a lord who delcares himself to be from the Iron Warriors can take an extra unit of obliterators, but cannot take any possessed. (It sounds like an incredible deal now, but this will be in the next codex, so who knows) Or a Thousand Sun band get Rubicon marines for the price of normal marines.

Garanaul the Black
07-02-2011, 04:56
I think that generic Chaos Lords should have a list of upgrades to choose from, each representing a legion or faction.


This is the ideal scenario in my opinion as well, customizable HQ to represent 'generic' Legion lords and bestow background appropriate perks. Personally, I'd rather build my own characters to fill a role than use one provided.


G

Mannimarco
07-02-2011, 04:59
Its a good idea, theres somthing more personal and interesting about having a character of your own making and forging his own history rather than "this is special character X, this is is history, if you want to play army Y you must take him".

Born Again
07-02-2011, 05:04
A few people now have mentioned having the ability to shoot in to assaults involving cultist units, but personally I think this is a bad idea. While it may seem fluffy, it has all sorts of problems game wise. First and foremost, I can already see it leading to horrible abuses such as a squad of cultists being used to tarpit an enemy unit, preventing them from moving/ shooting in their own turn, then blasting them with heavy weapons in the following turn. To me, this just seems like a bad idea as it's basically pinning an enemy unit in place and disabling them while you position your guns.

Lord Inquisitor
07-02-2011, 05:13
The cultists would have to survive two combat rounds before that would happen though.

Shooting into combat could be done as a mechanic, but it's tricky to randomise fairly. I've come up with a few systems but even at best they're a little clunky. I would agree it's probably best left out. Just having a cheap chaff cultist unit would be terrific.

Born Again
07-02-2011, 05:34
Agreed, they could make a great unit. What you could do is say that when units of cultists are falling back, units of Chaos Space Marines (not other cultist units) count as enemy units for blocking... so if they get surrounded by enemies and try to run towards the Chaos Marines, the Chaos Marines just mow them down. That would be simple enough and fluffy.

You could combine this with saying for every Cultist unit that has been wiped out, you get +1 to any reserve daemon rolls (sacrifical victims, see?). Put the two together, and a wily player may send his cultists in specifically to fall back on to his own guns, causing daemons to pop up and attack the enemy.

RunepriestRidcully
07-02-2011, 07:50
Agreed, they could make a great unit. What you could do is say that when units of cultists are falling back, units of Chaos Space Marines (not other cultist units) count as enemy units for blocking... so if they get surrounded by enemies and try to run towards the Chaos Marines, the Chaos Marines just mow them down. That would be simple enough and fluffy.

You could combine this with saying for every Cultist unit that has been wiped out, you get +1 to any reserve daemon rolls (sacrifical victims, see?). Put the two together, and a wily player may send his cultists in specifically to fall back on to his own guns, causing daemons to pop up and attack the enemy.

That is really nice, though I would like the option to either upgrade the cultists or take a unit of beastmen with lasguns with the options to take flak armour and perhaps 2W beastman champion? maybe give the cultists the abilty to blow themselves up, placing a S7 Ap3 template on their heads that can be activated any time, "you just charged my cultists/beastmen with your wolf guard? oh well I'll just blow them up :D" As most of the new codexs seem to have fliers, why not bring in Doomwings of Tzeentch, if the model was like the old epic one it would be a nice model, plus it would be nice for Thousand Sons/Tzeentch players to have something that is not negated either by a much cheaper rune priest or the free cover that, well covers all the gaming boards at the moment.(It would be nice if GW and FW could give Nurgle and Khorne a rest, we know they are the favorites, would it hurt them so much to give Tzeentch and Slannesh even a little love? and to possibly stop replacing our really cool looking troop daemons with really bad, disneyfied models, please?)

aka_mythos
07-02-2011, 12:45
A new Demon Engine would be enjoyable. Especially, imo, in the somewhat boring FA slot. A demon artillery, as read from the iron warrior books, would work and could make from awesome conversions or a new model, of course this wouldnt be a FA slot. I think the defiler could be put in FA, as its fleet, maybe make the cannon not so good and drop it there.Both are things we'd all definitely appreciate. I don't know what the Iron Warrior's daemon artillery has been described as looking like... but looking at how GW's done things I wouldn't be surprise if we saw a new defiler variant that replaces the current turret with one that only has a big gun in it... no doubt giving us some portion of the rules our defiler used to have... indirect fire.


I don't know why everyone is so dead set about SC's representing legions. They killed the viability of many chapters in the SM book. It seems that marines like Pedro and Vulkan are so eager to fight that they take place in every battle... For as much as those rules and models represent that character they are intended to represent an archetype. Out of the 1000 or so chapters there are chapter masters, captains, scouts, tank drivers that tend to fall into particular molds. They really are in there with a strong sense of "count as."


The cultists would have to survive two combat rounds before that would happen though.

Shooting into combat could be done as a mechanic, but it's tricky to randomise fairly. I've come up with a few systems but even at best they're a little clunky. I would agree it's probably best left out. Just having a cheap chaff cultist unit would be terrific. I think the only way you'd ever be able to have shooting into combat rule is where its as devistating if not more so to your own unit as the other unit you're shooting at. Say, roll to hit, allocate hits evenly between the two units in close combat and resolve. Since your guys don't see it coming... uneven number of hits are distributed against the shooters benefit; as would uneven special and heavy weapons hits. There would also likely be a negative LD modifier.

Lord Inquisitor
07-02-2011, 18:01
I think the only way you'd ever be able to have shooting into combat rule is where its as devistating if not more so to your own unit as the other unit you're shooting at. Say, roll to hit, allocate hits evenly between the two units in close combat and resolve. Since your guys don't see it coming... uneven number of hits are distributed against the shooters benefit; as would uneven special and heavy weapons hits. There would also likely be a negative LD modifier.
Problem with that is if you throw 10 cultists into combat with a single character - dividing hits evenly when your opponent is outnumbered 10 to 1 doesn't seem fair.

I was thinking if the opponent outnumbers cultists, the enemy are hit on a 4+, if you outnumber them, they're hit only on a 6+. That errs on the side of cultist casualties. That's about as simple as I can think of it, but it's still a little clunky (you have to count up each side).

Personally, I'd be happy with cheap WS2, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld6 6+ save troops with laspistol and CCW for 3 points a model that don't take up a Troops slot. Give 'em option for a leader with +1A and +1Ld and/or a Chaos Space Marine champion.

There'd be loads of uses for such a unit. No more special rules would be necessary.

DuskRaider
07-02-2011, 18:08
or you could just make a roll, 1-3 hits you, 4-6 hits your opponent. At that point one or the other takes all of the hits. This is how it worked in Confrontation, it was a 50/50 chance, but it makes things fair.

aka_mythos
07-02-2011, 18:29
Duskraider, that makes sense enough. I'd just guess that in anything bordering on "realistic" the odd would be much less of only hitting one. You don't shoot into your men without expecting to some of your own. Whatever way its done, I'm sure the opponent locked in combat would probably benefit from cover saves. GW would seem more inclined to that all or nothing approach.

@LordInquisitor, valid point, though it makes it seems the main reason GW's never incorporated is a reluctance to deal with shooting multiple units at once... rather than the friend or foe issue.

DuskRaider
07-02-2011, 20:25
Yeah, it worked well in Rackham's game system. It made you think twice about opening fire into a fray, that's for sure. I truthfully wouldn't give a cover save, though. Or if you DO give cover saves, only make them 5+. That would go to both your own units and the enemy's.