PDA

View Full Version : Blowpipes or Javleins?



thesheriff
29-01-2011, 18:03
I've recently been running an all skink army in small points levels for a 500pts stagered campaign. And i'm torn. Javelins or blow pipes?

Pros for blowpipes? They have more shots, better range. But take more modfiyers (Mulit shot). And tehse can sometimes negate poison when i am rolling on 7's

Pro's for Javelins? I get parry in combat, a smigen of armour, they get less modifyers, and are just as stong (and poisonus). But have significantly less range, and cost a point more per model.

The list is of current (with javelins);

*Skink cheif w. Magic bow of 3 S5 Shots, charmed shield, LA
*2x10 Skink w. Javelins+shield
*10 Blowpipe skinks
*7 Chemelion Skinks w. Stalker
*Razordon

(NOTE; the list is only for perspective, not for criticism. Then it would be in army list section)

Just wanted the concensus really.

thesheriff

Ultimate Life Form
29-01-2011, 19:22
Harum...

Well, dare I say, depends entirely on what you're up against. You summed it up yourself. Given the smallness and obvious tactical inflexibility of your army, anything with a half decent Armor Save will give your shooting serious trouble, so in this case Skinks that can actually fight might prove worthy. Against squishy armies, the power of double shooting blowpipes is unmatched. So the best choice might be a mix?

vinny t
29-01-2011, 19:36
For me personally, it's blowpipes all the way. If you wanted CC skinks then take them in real skink units, not skirmishers. Blowpipes are the absolutely perfect harassment unit, as well as killing the vast majority of monsters. The pros of javelins are higher armor save, and easier to hit. these advantages are good for CC and hitting with your shots. But for Skinks, poison is what gives them their shooting kills, and they're definitely not made for CC. Blowpipes accentuate their role as harassment units, as well as being cheaper (which is good for distraction units).

Also, skinks aren't forced to use double shoot, so when they're hitting on 7s, just opt not to use it

thesheriff
29-01-2011, 20:00
For me personally, it's blowpipes all the way. If you wanted CC skinks then take them in real skink units, not skirmishers. Blowpipes are the absolutely perfect harassment unit, as well as killing the vast majority of monsters. The pros of javelins are higher armor save, and easier to hit. these advantages are good for CC and hitting with your shots. But for Skinks, poison is what gives them their shooting kills, and they're definitely not made for CC. Blowpipes accentuate their role as harassment units, as well as being cheaper (which is good for distraction units).


I always find that ranked up skinks will die to anything. The argument is that with parry, they cvan recieve a charge (stand+shoot, 3-4 kills), and with a 100mm front, take a small number of attacks and buy some more time for your skinks to run away and get nto position.

And although poison is awsome, when you start hitting on 7's, you lose the benefits. So, anything in cover will not have poison (either moved or long range, multi shot, already on 6's).

I will probably end up taking a mix. Probably, for my eventual 500pts minimum core, 3 x 10 w. Javelins, 3 x 12 w. Blowpipes, Champions.

russellmoo
30-01-2011, 04:30
I like how the javelins look on the models-

WarmbloodedLizard
30-01-2011, 06:06
the javs offer skinks tactical options that are rather useless. while BPs were slightly better in 7th (because cheaper), they are a lot better in 8th. (esp. since you even have to PAY for the weaker choice of the two)

edit:
also don't take champions, they are just a waste of points.
as for the "no poison on 7s" argument: just don't doubleshoot in a situation like that. you have a 18" doubleshoot radius, that's usually enough. and there's just no reason to shoot at things that are hit on 7s. choose another target.
survivability: skinks don't have any. even with a parry save. 100mm is a lot. that's usually 10-21attacks: you will always lose some 4-10 skinks who will do no wounds in return and then die. skinks should never be in combat. they will always lose.

Peregijn
30-01-2011, 07:24
take javalins on your herous and the lore of beasts on your slan.
cast that spell where all herous in 12 inch get +3 strengt and sudenly: s7 javalin trhowing skinks.
(also in combat thats like 42 s7 attacks)

sssk
30-01-2011, 07:47
I'm not (nor have I ever been) a lizardmen player, but looking down the other end of the telescope, I really think blowpipes are the better option.

Can you still choose to do single shot? if so they're even better than "the better option".

The benefit of javelins seem to be in the shield which comes with them. However, against huge amounts of shooting, you won't get a save (and even when you do, saving 1 out of 6 skinks isn't awfully impressive). In combat, hand weapon and shield can be useful, but again, against strength 4 (or more) attacks you'll only be saving 1 out of 6 wounds. Also at toughness 2, skinks are going to take a lot of wounds, so I don't really see that saving 1/6 will be awfully helpful.

In the meantime, when you're shooting, it's mostly the poison which seems to do killing (while I can't really be bothered doing any mathhammer on it, rolling to hit and then to wound seems about the same chance, if slightly better, than rolling a 6 straight off), so if you can fire twice as many shots, it doesn't matter if you can only hit on 6s, because that's still going to bring the hurt. Longer range speaks for itself.

The only drawback of blowpipes that I can really see, is "how do the skinks form their lips into the right shape to actually fire a dart?".

As I say, I'm no lizardmen player, and can only make suggestions based on what I've fought in the past, but if I'm playing against a unit of skinks with blowpipes and a unit of skinks with javelins, I know exactly which one I'll be trying to get rid of first.

Catflap
30-01-2011, 17:58
I'm also not a lizardmen player but there is one thing i don't get : I always thought that the range for blowpipes was the same as javelins (12")
Howcome there is an "pro" on the range of blowpipes?

thesheriff
30-01-2011, 18:42
I'm also not a lizardmen player but there is one thing i don't get : I always thought that the range for blowpipes was the same as javelins (12")
Howcome there is an "pro" on the range of blowpipes?

I obviously can't read.

So anouther bonus for javelins. Its just so wrong it has to be right :wtf:

Spinocus
31-01-2011, 20:23
Which one to pick? Depends what you want to use them for. Blowpipe Skinks if you're gambling on their high end damage output potential delivering the goods in a given turn. However same Skinks absolutely suck if they cannot maximize the damage wrought by double-tapping a target. Javelin Skinks are more consistent with respect to their ranged damage output (however blah it may be) and are tougher to kill.

Pros of Blowpipe Skinks?
1) Double tap pwnage. In some situations this can count for 2 Pro reasons instead of one... ;)
2) Cheapness. Only 70pts for 10 expendable re-directing lizzies that can put out some serious poisoned, double-tap hurt.

Cons of Blowpipe Skinks?
1) Move + long range + double tap shooting modifiers = Weak, poison-less, '7's to hit' sauce. :(
2) No Stand & Shoot reaction vs enemy units charging from short range. This can be a real problem versus certain war beasts and light cavalry.

Pros of Javelin Skinks?
1) Quick to Fire - No movement penalty and Stand & Shoot reaction at any range.
2) Consistent damage output in all situations.
3) 6+ Armor Save & 6+ Parry - Greater survivability in and out of combat.

Cons of Javelin Skinks?
1) Anemic ranged output - No double tappage. :(
2) Cost! 8pts per lizzy. Not terrible but if you're pouring points into these guys you may as well opt for a smaller number of Chameleon Skinks which sport far greater destructive potential.

I'm inclined to always opt for Blowpipes in sub 2250pt games. Maybe splurge a little more on Javelins at higher point games. Ultimately Skinks Skirmishers are cheap, expendable units that you shrug your shoulders and go 'meh' when they die and rejoice when they make a big score. Since you're going for a Skink heavy army you could also consider pairing up a unit of Blowpipe Skinks with a unit of Javelin Skinks and use them in a mutual support role; Javelin Skinks to march block, Blowpipe Skinks for double-tapping blocked unit.

thesheriff
31-01-2011, 21:38
I've been using them to mutual effect so far. One javelin chases after the chameleon skinks that scout to support, and the rest of the army (10 blowpipes, 10 javelins, lone character and razordon) fend of the majority of the opponent.

It works quite well. The only thing I struggle with in 500pts is someone has a mortar. But that's almost always gone by turn 2. It either nukes my chameleon skinks or my blowpipe unit first turn. Which is a real shame.

Turtleking
31-01-2011, 22:41
vinny t Said it better then I could have.

Blowpipes are just better in 8th I think.

Svarten
01-02-2011, 18:00
Pros for blowpipes? They have more shots, better range. But take more modfiyers (Mulit shot). And tehse can sometimes negate poison when i am rolling on 7's

Pro's for Javelins? I get parry in combat, a smigen of armour, they get less modifyers, and are just as stong (and poisonus). But have significantly less range, and cost a point more per model.

Aren't both blowpipes and javelins range 12''? xD

scruffyryan
01-02-2011, 18:14
Blowpipes on bs 3 skinks are terrible, you'll often find yourself having to deal with moved, long range, double tap which means no poison. Pay the extra point for the javelin skinks, the situations where you get to double tap with regular skinks are pretty few and far between. If you really really want blowpipe doubletapping skinks, take chameleon skinks, scout, extra -1 to shoot at them, and you can move, doubletap, and be at long range while still having poison shots.

thesheriff
01-02-2011, 18:42
Aren't both blowpipes and javelins range 12''? xD

Already corrected in Post 9 xD

N810
01-02-2011, 18:48
You guys are aware that Double shot is purely optional,
so if you moved and are are at long range, choose singe shots,
and you will still be hiting on 6's.

The real advantage of javelens is the quick to fire rule.

Svarten
01-02-2011, 18:52
Already corrected in Post 9 xD

Fair enough xD

I would use javelins anyway, since I tend to keep my army on the move. And to get use of the poison, I'd need to fire blowpipes in single mode anyway. So there's no loss in fire power, and you even get a remote chance to survive in hth! :D

scruffyryan
01-02-2011, 19:15
You guys are aware that Double shot is purely optional,
so if you moved and are are at long range, choose singe shots,
and you will still be hiting on 6's.

The real advantage of javelens is the quick to fire rule.

Making blowpipes pretty much irrelevant in the scheme of things. the diff between 70 points and 80 points is pretty slim from a "best option" standpoint. You can have something that hits on 5's and autowounds on sixes from a worst case scenario in the base book, or something that hits and autowounds on sixes for the same number of shots in the same situation. People come to grips with close combat too quickly in the current environment to waste a turn setting up for a double shot.

thesheriff
01-02-2011, 21:37
I suppose both offer flexibility. Blowpipes optional extended shooting capabilities, javelins and shields are slightly more durable and accurate.

And I dint think points does come into it. In 2k (the grander scheme) I won't be spending anymore than minimum. Which is still bottom line 60 skinks :p