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gloriousbattle
29-01-2011, 23:02
What was the first ultra-cheese 40k force, going throughout the entire history of the game?

Many people give this honor to the 1st ed Harlequins, who were nearly impossible to hit, had really nasty weapons, could bypass hand to hand combat, and could be mega-powerful psykers to boot.

But I don't think they were really all that cheesey, by virtue of the fact that you had to give them a very difficult and complex paintjob if you were to field them. Or so said GW at the time. Many people would refuse to play against less than fully painted Harlequins.

Anyway, where do you think the buy-it-now-because-it-will-kick-***-on-all-that-came-before rampage really started?

Inquisitor Engel
29-01-2011, 23:17
Anyway, where do you think the buy-it-now-because-it-will-kick-***-on-all-that-came-before rampage really started?

I can pinpoint the exact moment in 40k's current history (1st and 2nd being largely very different games to play than 3rd onwards, for good or ill) where a single model became an almost guaranteed game-winner:

Necron Codex. Monolith and Nightbringer.

Yeah they were slow and couldn't do all that much if you countered correctly, but man did it take a long time for people to play around them. The Tau Hammerhead was a pretty big deal as well, being the first Str10 AP1 gun.... ever.

Lion El Jason
29-01-2011, 23:29
Eldar 2nd ed.

It is just fact there has never been a more broken army in any edition of any game ever.

To cite evidence, the first international 40k tournament (Before GTs and throne of skulls) had a majority of space marine armies (As you'd expect) eldar did so well, pretty much all coming highly placed and winning overall in the tournament and the staff tournament that at the second ever tournament ~70% of players were eldar.

Literally once you learned the game eldar were unbeatable. If you beat them your opponent messed up somehow.

To further illustrate just how bad they were, Engel mentions 1&2nd ed were very different games...
I remember an evening in bugmans when it was pretty much stated that all the changes to the base rules of 40k from 2nd to 3rd ed can be traced to one goal:
Making space marines better and nerfing eldar.
Maybe thats 2 goals? Either way things like standard 6" move, AP values, the assault phase, psychic powers, no hit modifiers, cover saves ...etc...etc... were all introduced because of how broken eldar were.

Raibaru
29-01-2011, 23:59
Wraithlords were probably one of the more obscene units in the game and were an issue long before the above mentioned monolith ever was. From 3rd onward anyway. Didn't play much in second edition, but I remember carnifex being quite obscene then.

Born Again
30-01-2011, 00:54
It began when Internet forums became popular. Before then, any cheesy combinations players discovered were limited to their gaming group through word of mouth. These days any 12 year old kid can get an abusive cheese list off the net.

Mannimarco
30-01-2011, 01:19
The cheesiest most sickeningly broken thing that just ruins the game for everybody? Who is the newest marine dex? Those guys ;)

Dvora
30-01-2011, 01:29
.________@@_
|----------------\__
| WAAMBULANCE |
|__ _______ ___/
''''''O'''''''''''''O''''

2nd edition Space Wolves

Venkh
30-01-2011, 01:41
Nah

The Eldar Dreadnought/Robot build rules published in WD for RT.

I gave my T10 dreads 6 plasma guns each and stomped all over my mates space marines.

100% cheese!

marv335
30-01-2011, 01:54
RT was more of a roleplaying game than a wargame, so it needs to start with 2nd ed.
And the cheese kings of 2nd ed were without doubt the Eldar.
SW could be nasty, but were nowhere near as bad.

Reflex
30-01-2011, 01:58
what about orks and the rokkits you could fire at the start of the game?

Hellebore
30-01-2011, 02:06
I remember an evening in bugmans when it was pretty much stated that all the changes to the base rules of 40k from 2nd to 3rd ed can be traced to one goal:
Making space marines better and nerfing eldar.
Maybe thats 2 goals? Either way things like standard 6" move, AP values, the assault phase, psychic powers, no hit modifiers, cover saves ...etc...etc... were all introduced because of how broken eldar were.

Lol and they still seem to be following that brief with overly complicated rules that simply make them worse than imperial equivalents.:rolleyes:

Obviously they cared more about marine players back then, even though their own statistics showed that people played eldar more. Which is stupid as they were according to the apologists only supporting marines because they sold the best.

Yet the eldar appear here to be selling better and instead of making a dozen eldar codicies they nerf the crap out of them and try to push marines again. No agenda there...:rolleyes:

Hellebore

Dwane Diblie
30-01-2011, 02:44
I have to agree that 2nd ed eldar of all sorts was way OP. Puting a marin unit up against an equal pointed guardian unit and the guardian would generaly destroy the marines because of the fact that they out numbered then and each on fired D3 shots to the marines 1. Warp Spiders (44pts ea) vs Necrons (42pts ea). The Death Spinner fired a template and had rules powerful enough to kill entire Necron units and stop them frim getting back up, and you had one on each WarpSpider. That was fair, Not. Banshee mask stoped you from fighting at all in the first round of combat. Harliquis moved so fast on foot combined with their stealth abilitys that you could not shoot them, and you had no chance in close combat. The only character in the game that could keep up with Jain Zar's kill count was (and rightly so) Kharn the Betrayer. Swooping Hawks had 36" movement and could drop krak/frag and fire lasguns when they landed. And much much more.

Sure other armys had realy powerful units but none had it army wide like eldar. I think from memory even Shining Spears where useful. Just no models so no one used them much. I had conversions of then and turned them back to guardians when we hit 3rd.

Chaos was prety powerful back then. It was the first army I saw at my local GW that started to out number the others regarding people playing them.

Voss
30-01-2011, 03:22
But I don't think they were really all that cheesey, by virtue of the fact that you had to give them a very difficult and complex paintjob if you were to field them. Or so said GW at the time. Many people would refuse to play against less than fully painted Harlequins.


What? The original harlequin list was extremely powerful, but this 'painting restriction' you're talking about is pure fantasy.

gloriousbattle
30-01-2011, 04:26
What? The original harlequin list was extremely powerful, but this 'painting restriction' you're talking about is pure fantasy.

I was playin' back then dude. I'm sure not everybody enforced it, but where I was playing, we did.

eyescrossed
30-01-2011, 05:25
Then it was probably a houserule.

brotherhostower
30-01-2011, 09:08
GW standard rule is, painted, 3 colors min + base. That's the current rule (at least since I started about 8 years ago). Now, not sure anywhere actually enforces this rule lol, even the brick & mortar GeeDubs here in new england never seemed to care (much easier to sell models to the lazy painters that way).

Stonerhino
30-01-2011, 10:42
The 2nd Ed Space Wolves = first super cheesey army. The Eldar where pretty broken but could be beat. Space Wolves were called Space Cheese for a reason.

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2011, 11:13
But I don't think they were really all that cheesey, by virtue of the fact that you had to give them a very difficult and complex paintjob if you were to field them. Or so said GW at the time. Many people would refuse to play against less than fully painted Harlequins.


What? The original harlequin list was extremely powerful, but this 'painting restriction' you're talking about is pure fantasy.


I was playin' back then dude. I'm sure not everybody enforced it, but where I was playing, we did.


Then it was probably a houserule.

No, it was an actual rule, but gloriousbattle appears to have misunderstood it. The rule only applied to vehicles and robots used by the Harlequin troupe (see page 194 of the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium). The same thing went for human vehicles used by Orks.

IJW
30-01-2011, 11:25
GW standard rule is, painted, 3 colors min + base. That's the current rule (at least since I started about 8 years ago).
The period people are talking about finished more than sixteen years ago. :angel:

Venkh
30-01-2011, 13:55
RT was more of a roleplaying game than a wargame, so it needs to start with 2nd ed.

This is a very common misconception.

The RT book may have been roleplay/skirmish orientated but the game soon developed into something of the scale we have now.

The lists then actually allowed for larger armies than most people use today.

I played plenty of big games, so did my friends

Lion El Jason
30-01-2011, 15:08
The 2nd Ed Space Wolves = first super cheesey army. The Eldar where pretty broken but could be beat. Space Wolves were called Space Cheese for a reason.

Nah, Space Wolves were over powered, Eldar were broken.
Any half decent player is unbeatable with eldar in 2nd edition. Space Wolves... ok they were loads better then all the other marines for not much more points but they were still just marines at the end of the day.

AlphariusOmegon20
30-01-2011, 15:46
RT was more of a roleplaying game than a wargame, so it needs to start with 2nd ed.
And the cheese kings of 2nd ed were without doubt the Eldar.
SW could be nasty, but were nowhere near as bad.

Eldar paled next to the 2E Plague Marine list.

Everything paled next to that list with all the throwable blight grenades

rabblerouser
30-01-2011, 15:52
I agree with second edition eldar. But I would like to say that many other armies could have super cheesy elements, including space puppies, chaos marines, or anything with those annoying vortex grenades.

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2011, 16:40
So ... every army except Tyranids, then? :)

Not that I agree - the only time I used a Vortex Grenade, it ate my own Land Raider.

gloriousbattle
30-01-2011, 17:02
Then it was probably a houserule.

Not worth arguing about in any case. If so, maybe it did start with the Harlequins.

gloriousbattle
30-01-2011, 17:04
No, it was an actual rule, but gloriousbattle appears to have misunderstood it. The rule only applied to vehicles and robots used by the Harlequin troupe (see page 194 of the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium). The same thing went for human vehicles used by Orks.

As my memory slowly unhazes, I think that's right. You couldn't just pop down a land raider or robot and let the Harlequins use it, it had to be repainted, and it got an automatic breakdown roll?

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2011, 17:06
Yeah, that's it. Obviously wielding a spanner was below a Harlequin's dignity.

I'm looking at the original Harlequin army list now. You could kit the whole lot of them out with bolt pistols, if you so desired. :)

Lion El Jason
30-01-2011, 19:13
I agree with second edition eldar. But I would like to say that many other armies could have super cheesy elements, including space puppies, chaos marines, or anything with those annoying vortex grenades.

Well, Eldar were the masters of this... there were 2 Vortex Grenade wargear cards so an exarch could:


Move 36" Ignoring terrain, models etc. (Swooping Hawk Wings)
Throw 2 vortex Grenades at 2 different targets (Fast Shot)
Could have range 15" (Crack Shot)
Hitting on 2+


Anything touched by the 3" template (Though back in the day we described them by radius and it was called a 1.5" template) was destroyed, no saves.

Dwane Diblie
31-01-2011, 01:08
Oh and speaking of Wargear Cards. Eldar had access to some as actual wargear and so where un restricted in their use. Displacer Field comes to mind. (3+ invulnerable save that moved the wearer in a random direction) I am not sure in any on else had this kind of treatment.

Freman Bloodglaive
31-01-2011, 01:29
Power field with multiple negative to hit modifiers on an Exarch was funny too.

Dump him in front of your army, let your opponent shoot everything at him. What few things didn't miss just bounced off his 2+ save. The rest of your army then killed everything.

Born Again
31-01-2011, 03:12
I agree with second edition eldar. But I would like to say that many other armies could have super cheesy elements, including space puppies, chaos marines, or anything with those annoying vortex grenades.

And lets not forget the infamous Virus Outbreak, especially when used against orks...

vladsimpaler
31-01-2011, 03:17
Imperial Guard in their Rogue Trader army list.

Imperial Guard squads were given the option of auxiliary grenade launchers. Any Guard squad could have them.

Two particular grenade types stand out: Virus and Vortex. That's right, Turn 1 you could have 40 Vortex templates on your army.

Beat that, Harlequins.

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2011, 08:09
Well, 1st and 2nd edition relied more on Rule Zero than the later editions; "Don't be a tool". :)

Charax
31-01-2011, 08:15
Rogue Trader Chaos and the Russian Nesting Bloodthirsters.

So much fun...

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2011, 08:18
That only went in one level - the Bloodthirster inside the first Bloodthirster's Axe of Khorne didn't have another Axe of Khorne.

Probably had it taken off him for being crappy enough to get stuffed into the Axe in the first place.

Mr. Ultra
31-01-2011, 09:38
I started in Hobby with the 2nd ed., so can't say much about Rogue Trader days. But I remember horrors... Horrors like the experience of playing a 2nd ed. Ork army against a Space Wolf force which includes ALL the special characters!! (fortunately, we banned the vortex and virus nonsenses since the very first time we read the cards).

Ambull Tau
31-01-2011, 09:45
Well, 1st and 2nd edition relied more on Rule Zero than the later editions; "Don't be a tool". :)
True, but spamming the board with Defence Lasers was always funny the first time you did it.

Doppleskanger
31-01-2011, 10:03
One of the assassins in 2nd ed, the Eversor I think, seemed like the first introduction of the 'I win button' in my memory.

Lots of crazy stuff in RT but as everyone had access to so much mad stuff it wasn't really unbalanced for any particular army. Invisible Bloodthirsty were a bit of a pain mind you!

IJW
31-01-2011, 10:09
One Techmarine.
One Plasma Barrage Missile with a blast radius of 60".

Job done.

Stonerhino
31-01-2011, 10:33
In 2nd a well built Khorne Lord could take an entire elf army solo. The only thing in the game that could kill him reliably was a vortex grenade. Your only hope was to pray that he could not kill enough over the course of the game as you ran away.

bork da basher
31-01-2011, 10:44
my vote is for 2nd edition eldar. swooping hawk exarchs with vortex granades = virtually garenteed dead anything. also the ridiculously tooled up harliquins. good times

Memnos
31-01-2011, 10:51
I am shocked that Harlequins and Eldar are seeing such a high amount of hate here.

In my second edition group, the one Eldar player was often crushed thanks to Overwatch and my Orks with Kustom-Kombi weapons.

"All right. I have holo-fields. I ran 12 inches and I'm in a forest. That's -6 to hit."

"Okay. Let me roll the artillery dice. A six. Okay - If your unit is within sixty inches, it takes a strength 6 hit. That's wounding on 2s, no saves."

There were the Squig Catapults, which rolled the artillery and scatter dice instead of to-hit. There was the Shokk Attack Gun, which would suck out 30 points of Snotlings and have you roll 6 dice for each model under the template.

And then there was the Mole Mortar Imperial Guard guy. He never had a problem with Eldar.

Maybe it's because our group didn't have many marines aside from Bob's all-space wolf with Cyclone Missile Launcher army(Who rarely won due to the 'You always have to shoot at the closest model' rule and the fact that we mostly had horde players), but I don't recall Eldar really being that bad-assed.

Poseidal
31-01-2011, 12:45
Weren't Eldar mainly good at movement and character killing (thanks to the movement)? (I didn't play much in 2nd, though I was there, is that what won you the game? movement?)

IIRC their stats and even weapons were pretty mundane compared with things like the Assault Cannon.

IJW
31-01-2011, 13:28
Pretty well everything was mundane compared to the 2nd edition Assault Cannon. ;)

Yes, Eldar had good movement, but their basic gun was the Shuriken Catapult, at that time a gun with the same range, to hit modifiers and rate of fire as a Storm Bolter, but better saving throw modifier. In a similar way, Shuriken Cannon were largely better than Heavy Bolters.

Many of their other weapons were extremely powerful, like the Death Spinners that have already been mentioned, or Swooping Hawks jumping 36" a turn while dropping grenades on units under the flight path and then shooting another unit with their guns, or alternatively leaving the table for a turn and then entering anywhere on the table, including directly into combat.

There was very little in the Eldar codex that could be described as mundane...

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2011, 14:07
Pretty well everything was mundane compared to the 2nd edition Assault Cannon. ;)

Yeah. Bjorn the Fell-Handed was killing Avatars a decade before Marneus Calgar made it cool. :)

On which note, in the Rogue Trader Eldar army list, Avatars with the Exarch power that allowed them to move 4" and fight again if they killed all their opponents in melee were deadly; one of those killed my entire army in one round of close combat.

Mind you, the day we played a mega-battle and my Marines deployed a Thunderhawk Gunship and three Land Raiders, righteous revenge was had. :cool:

ColShaw
31-01-2011, 14:22
3rd Ed Blood Angels pretty much single-handedly broke 3rd Edition and created the Rhino Rush, leading to the "flaming coffin" phase of vehicles in 4th Ed. I don't think anything before 3rd Ed should count for "cheese" since they weren't even TRYING to balance the game before that.

Doppleskanger
31-01-2011, 15:35
@AndrewGPaul

yeah especially if they had rolled on the random attributes table for the Avatar and 'miraculously' got that skill combined with the one where he could leap a huge distance too :O

Gingerwerewolf
31-01-2011, 17:04
It began when Internet forums became popular. Before then, any cheesy combinations players discovered were limited to their gaming group through word of mouth. These days any 12 year old kid can get an abusive cheese list off the net.

Yep the Internet and Forums have made the damage far worse. Now Powergamery Armies are exploited by the masses so much that it has become the way to play the game.

I lament this state of affairs personally having had armies in every edition.

I still hold a place in my heart for 2nd Edition, and I loved the close combat system, Strategies and the Wargear system.

Bring them back!

Anyway back on subject more, the first overpowered army Ive ever played against was from the Citadel Journal, by Gav Thorpe (before he worked for GW and was a Regular in a shop who wrote rules for fun) It was some sort of Penal / Militia force and had hundreds of troops.

They were overpowered to the max.

Gingerwerewolf
31-01-2011, 17:19
Eldar in Second edition had powers like distract and parry, which together with an actual power sword messed with any model who had less than 4 attacks so much that they couldnt do anything.

However, distract was awesome from a comedy value in our group. We summed up as the Exarch taking a squeaky toy into battle.

"With many mon keigh dead at his feat, Karhedron sheathed his sword to take in the carnage. The Space Marine Captain still wore a comical look of pure confusion on his face. Almost as if he couldnt understand what it was that had killed him.

The truth of course was in Karhedrons left hand, and as the Exarch turned to walk away a sound could be heard in the silence of the battlefield.

Sqeee-kit..."

Killswitch<>
31-01-2011, 17:24
Yeh definitely 2nd Ed space wolves lol

cromanobtroir
31-01-2011, 17:42
Space marines with rad grenades were insanely unfair to the degree they were banned by GW themselves in tournaments. The Eldar wraithlord is still the best in hand to hand against any normal model even chapter masters cant touch it without a powerfist. S 10 T 8 power weapons (basically) all you need is a warlock near it all times and it never looses I have had one bounce a chaplin across the battle field. Does anyone remember khorne terminators with 2+ save on 2d6.

gloriousbattle
31-01-2011, 20:58
One Techmarine.
One Plasma Barrage Missile with a blast radius of 60".

Job done.

Heh. Yeah, off-board artillery was great. When I first started playing (1 ed), all I had was a squad of Imperial Guard, so, for my first 1,000 point game, after loading up the Guardsmen with whatever I could (which wasn't much) I had over 800 points left, and you didn't need models to represent off-board artillery, so...

KABOOM!

gloriousbattle
31-01-2011, 21:07
Also, as to 1 ed Eldar, which, by the end of 1ed, already had Avatars, Warlocks, Exarchs, etc., remeber that the one thing they did NOT have was true psykers, and a true psyker (even a Level I IG psyker) with one or two decent powers would kick the Avatar's butt six ways from Sunday.

That was what made Harlequins so over the top. They were Eldar WITH psykers.

cromanobtroir
31-01-2011, 21:44
hell yeah i was just thinking about either 2nd/3rd edition (cant remember) assassins were so strong you could field one against an army they even had had a scenerio for it

Stonerhino
31-01-2011, 23:05
2nd Ed Thunder Hammers, auto-pen, auto-wound, +6 modifier and caused d6 wounds.

Any psyker stood no chance against Doombread.

So anything that you want to say is cheese because of being a psyker remember that 2nd Ed Chaos trumps it with anyone wearing a collar of Khrone.

Griffindale
31-01-2011, 23:21
Is GW now supplying cheese to go with all of this chaos wine? :)

cromanobtroir
31-01-2011, 23:50
and abbadon wow he was the hardest character in the game. Terror causing (I think or at least fear) frenzy with that daemon sword.

Born Again
01-02-2011, 03:30
Does anyone remember khorne terminators with 2+ save on 2d6.

Ha, yes, though to be fair it was in the days of save modifiers.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 08:25
The difference between all the possible "cheese" in earlier editions and now is that back then, if you picked a really game-breaking army, you got mocked. There weren't forums across the internet promoting them.

Stonerhino
01-02-2011, 09:54
Is GW now supplying cheese to go with all of this chaos wine? :)No, GW is supplying chaos wine for all the years of cheese.

Mr. Ultra
01-02-2011, 10:21
Maybe the current Chaos Codex is a penitence for the 2nd edition... If it's the case, it's a hard punishment. As captain Barbossa said once: "We are cursed men, Miss Turner. Compelled by greed, we were. But now, we are consumed by it..."

Shamana
01-02-2011, 10:25
Maybe the current Chaos Codex is a penitence for the 2nd edition... If it's the case, it's a hard punishment."

Hey, hey there. It's not that bad, is it :rolleyes: ?

I haven't played 2nd or 3rd, but it sounds like almost everyone was OP there ;) Except for vanila SM and possibly guard, eh?

Born Again
01-02-2011, 10:35
The difference between all the possible "cheese" in earlier editions and now is that back then, if you picked a really game-breaking army, you got mocked. There weren't forums across the internet promoting them.

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. I played in 2nd edition and I remember some ghastly combinations and rules abuses, just some of which are mentioned in this thread. However, it was a time when being a "beard" was just about the worst insult you could label a gamer with (and by the way, there was a similarly insulting term, "tinboy", for someone who regularly fielded unpainted models).

Nowadays, largely thanks to the internet, being a beard is not only promoted, it is seen by many as the only way to play properly. If you say you take a fluffy army, people look down on you. They say you're not playing competitively, and ask sarcastically if you're trying to lose. If you take units that aren't seen as the most efficient choice for their relevant FOC slot, they approach you with confusion. I've had people look at me in total confusion when I explained I took a Deff Dred over Killa Kans because it better fit the theme of my Goff army. Not just confusion as in "I don't understand you because I would never do that", confusion as in "I am no longer sure you are speaking English". I have had kids who haven't been alive as long as I've been playing offer to teach me "how to play better", when what they really mean is they'll go online and get a list off a forum. They're not playing the game in all it's elements, they themselves are having their hands held by the people making up the lists to post online... lists that, in 2nd edition, would probably have been banned from many people's gaming groups.

Ok. Rant over.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 12:27
One example is the infamous Space Wolves army - Twenty Wolf Guard Terminators with assault cannon and cyclone missile launchers. I never saw that fielded, even before it was FAQed away. Everyone I knew spotted it straight away, and said "hah hah, look what you can do with the army list" - and promptly went back to building more Grey Hunters with hand flamers.

Lion El Jason
01-02-2011, 12:30
One example is the infamous Space Wolves army - Twenty Wolf Guard Terminators with assault cannon and cyclone missile launchers. I never saw that fielded, even before it was FAQed away. Everyone I knew spotted it straight away, and said "hah hah, look what you can do with the army list" - and promptly went back to building more Grey Hunters with hand flamers.

It was never legal...even before the FAQ.
A few people built these because the option was available in the codex but they weren't exempt from the rule that a model could only carry one heavy weapon (As defined in the wargear book).

This also seemed to go hand in hand with the misunderstanding of Cyclones that lead to 6" (Radius) blasts from a full salvo. That was also incorrect.

gloriousbattle
01-02-2011, 12:43
Is GW now supplying cheese to go with all of this chaos wine? :)

Just imagine how much they'd charge... :eek:

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 13:07
It was never legal...even before the FAQ.
A few people built these because the option was available in the codex but they weren't exempt from the rule that a model could only carry one heavy weapon (As defined in the wargear book).

Huh. Missed that for the entirety of 2nd edition. :) Mind you, so did Andy, Jervis and co, when they wrote the FAQ "banning" Assault Cannon and Cyclones on a single model. :)

Lion El Jason
01-02-2011, 14:06
Huh. Missed that for the entirety of 2nd edition. :) Mind you, so did Andy, Jervis and co, when they wrote the FAQ "banning" Assault Cannon and Cyclones on a single model. :)

Yeah, I remember the FAQ, we missed it at our store first and a couple of people brought in their conversions and we looked stuff up. TBH it wasn't that overpowered, get them in combat and they had WS3 and even if they won only STR 4 because no power weapon/fist.


And Eldar laughed at them anyway...

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 14:17
WS 3? Where did the -2 come from?

Lion El Jason
01-02-2011, 14:22
In 2nd ed you got -1WS for carrying a heavy weapon.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 14:33
OK. I don't think we forgot that one at the time. On the other hand, I don't think we applied it to Terminators for some reason.

In any case, as I said, none of us were ever that cheesey.

(Ragnar Blackmane using his dodge save against a Vortex Grenade, now that's a different story ... :shifty:)

Conandoodle
04-02-2011, 06:06
Remember when Assault Cannons were nailed to everything? I recall half the kids I saw designing their armies around how many ACs they can strap in.

Easy E
04-02-2011, 13:45
This is a very common misconception.

The RT book may have been roleplay/skirmish orientated but the game soon developed into something of the scale we have now.

The lists then actually allowed for larger armies than most people use today.

I played plenty of big games, so did my friends

Sure, but did you use a GM? You were suppose to. They tended to even out a lot of craziness.

2nd Edition Space Wolves- Specifically Wolfguard Termies all with Cyclone Missile Launchers that fired all their missiles in one turn. Their really wasn't much you could do due to deployment zones and such. Just die. We read over those rules many. many, many times. I guess we just weren't rules lawyering well enough.

Althought, The Eldar Exarchs were dead hard with their Exarch powers and special wargear. I remember having an Avatar that mowed through two or three squads of marines in one turn thanks to Sustained Assualt and some other cheesy combos.

Soon we were playing Necromunda instead.

self biased
04-02-2011, 15:56
What was the first ultra-cheese 40k force, going throughout the entire history of the game?

Many people give this honor to the 1st ed Harlequins, who were nearly impossible to hit, had really nasty weapons, could bypass hand to hand combat, and could be mega-powerful psykers to boot.

But I don't think they were really all that cheesey, by virtue of the fact that you had to give them a very difficult and complex paintjob if you were to field them. Or so said GW at the time. Many people would refuse to play against less than fully painted Harlequins.

Anyway, where do you think the buy-it-now-because-it-will-kick-***-on-all-that-came-before rampage really started?

"If you say no to my next question, I shall have to shoot you. Now, "Is there any cheese in this cheese shop?"
"No, sorry."
BANG!
"What a senseless waste of human life."

oni
04-02-2011, 21:24
Eldar 2nd ed.

It is just fact there has never been a more broken army in any edition of any game ever.

Literally once you learned the game eldar were unbeatable. If you beat them your opponent messed up somehow.

To further illustrate just how bad they were, Engel mentions 1&2nd ed were very different games...
I remember an evening in bugmans when it was pretty much stated that all the changes to the base rules of 40k from 2nd to 3rd ed can be traced to one goal:
Making space marines better and nerfing eldar.
Maybe thats 2 goals? Either way things like standard 6" move, AP values, the assault phase, psychic powers, no hit modifiers, cover saves ...etc...etc... were all introduced because of how broken eldar were.

^ This!

I was an Eldar player myself. I was loosing all the time with my Space Marines, so I switched to Eldar. Why? It was easy to win with them. You didn't even really have to try and you'd win.

insectum7
05-02-2011, 06:58
I don't remember the Eldar being particularly nasty, I think everyone in my gaming group pulled out all the stops for crazy lists, so every race had their fair shot at the cheesiest. I actually remember setting a lot of Exarchs on fire. . . I always had some Assault troops with flamers/hand flamers for the job.

I remember Orks with Mega Armor and Lascannons being really annoying when backed up with six Pulsa-Rokkits. . . and a Mekanic with a Shock Attack Gun on Telescopic Legs.

Missile Launchers on overwatch with Plasma Missiles were grand fun.

My vote for the birth of cheese is with the Space Wolves, since they were the first Codex. :)

Lion El Jason
06-02-2011, 01:20
Oh, I just remembered another eldar cheese ability.

They could take 25% of their army as characters which included 50 point exarchs (No squad needed) which were ok on their own but importantly worth no victory points.

You could make a 2k point list that was worth less VPs than a 1800 point list by taking a few exarchs.

Poseidal
06-02-2011, 09:27
A 50 point Exarch had no gear other than Armour and his Laspistol.

I really don't think they were winning with a bunch of these, especially when spending a few points on some basic gear (like a a Melta Gun and Jump Pack) would make them far, far nastier.

Stonerhino
06-02-2011, 19:39
WS 3? Where did the -2 come from?Wolf Guard were WS6 not 5. And as pointed out you could not assult cannon + cyclone so they are WS5. In a 2,000 point army you could field 17 w/ assult cannons and powerfist and a wolf lord.

And if you think longfangs are bad now. They used to be BS5 with targeters (Think Tau Targeting array...kind of).

Lion El Jason
06-02-2011, 20:25
Wolf Guard were WS6 not 5. And as pointed out you could not assult cannon + cyclone so they are WS5.

True dat.

AFnord
06-02-2011, 20:54
I haven't played 2nd or 3rd, but it sounds like almost everyone was OP there Except for vanila SM and possibly guard, eh?
In 3rd edition it was mainly the mini-dexes that were broken (before Chaos 3.5). Blood angels were stupid in that they were given a flaw that in fact was an advantage (for most units, not those with heavy weapons, like devastators), and for no additional cost, every squad had to sacrifice a marine (on a roll of 4+) in order to get a far superior death company marine. On a 6+ you got to roll again, and if you sacrificed a vet sergeant, you got a vanilla DC marine and a DC marine with either a power weapon or a power fist. Blood angels loved to field many small cheap squads...
Craftworld eldar was worse though. Iyanden might have been gimmicky, but facing 3 small units of wraithguards, 3 wraith lords, and still the normal amount of heavy supports was not fun, Alaitoc had that silly disruption table (which you got for each ranger unit). Disadvantage? You had to bring 2 units of rangers... Granted, rangers were not great, but forcing you to take two units that gives you an advantage is not a disadvantage.
Ulthwé was the worst of the whole lot. They had the seers council, which was the most broken unit that I have faced to date (I did not play during 2nd edition). It makes the current biker council seem soft & friendly. Disadvantage: They had to bring more guardians (but of course they could not be mean to a craftworld eldar army, so their guardians got +1BS, for no extra point cost. In 3rd edition, guardians were actually considered good, unlike how it is these days).

Dark Aly
08-02-2011, 14:35
Fabulous bile, archaon and kharn in a chaos army :( although my 45 point, twin auto cannon bikes soon let them know that da Orks is best.

EDIT: dammit, wrong chaos hero :) I meant abaddon (Sp?)

Born Again
08-02-2011, 15:52
Personally, I'd never bother taking Archaon in a game of 40k, unless his horse could fit in a Rhino or learned to deep strike.

tu33y
08-02-2011, 16:22
i have REALLY enjoyed reading this thread... and there are not many here you can saythat about! i think modern gamers take so much for granted (im only 3 years into hobby even tho im 33) and hearing about the old days is amazing... the same kind of people but playing a different game... i like it. tell me more!

AntiPaladin
08-02-2011, 22:04
2nd ed Space Wolves were the most broken thing to ever hit the table, even after the faq. Eldar were bad, but nothing compared to the Wolfguard Drop (and I was playing Eldar and Harlies)

The army is 20 WG Termies all with either assault cannons or Cyclones and 1 naked Capain with a teleport homer. WG start off the board (no reserve back then, just special rules) and the Captain starts in the heaviest cover he can. 1st turn all 20 WG teleport in (w/ no scatter thanks to the homer) and procede to unload everything. You then get 1 turn to shoot at them before they all teleport back out (yes, even the ones in hth) and the rest of the game is the naked Captain running around trying to deny you even the 1 VP he was worth. So you have 1 turn, after being sot to hell, to kill at least as many points as the WG did in their salo or you auto lose. Even if you got 1st turn and killed the captain, that just meant the WG would scatter, not that they couldn't come in.

Phazael
08-02-2011, 22:12
Actually, Space Wolves have been overpowered in every edition of the game, post Rogue Trader (where everyone was broken).

2n Edition: All Wolf Guard army with Cyclones (think battle cannon templates on each one), ACs AND Fists on every model?

3rd Edition: Lets see, 20 man blood claws, 4 Power Fists per squad, a psychic power that turned anything into howling banshees when charging, and the first truely abusive drop pod lists....

Current Edition: Needs no explanation....

Other armies have had annoying lists over the years (hi2u Alaitoc Eldar), not nothing as consistantly overpowered as the Cheese Wolves have been gifted with.

Woodsman
09-02-2011, 07:03
I don't have too many memories of 2nd; I started towards the end but my Eldar were 'ard.
Those days Harlies kissed with tongue, none of this chaste ~%@$ we get nowadays.

After that the craftworld Eldar book was pretty horrendous.

Alaitoc disruption tables were very frustrating.

Oakwolf
09-02-2011, 16:25
It would be between either Eldar 2nd edition or Space Wolves in 2nd edition. Both those armies could screw the whole galaxy and ask for more.

That being said, overall, i think the crown should go to Space Wolves for the most consistent pieces of cheese throughout 40k history.

You just know before even reading their book that it's going to be very powerful. Same goes with Skaven in fantasy battle.

Carlosophy
09-02-2011, 17:20
- The Khorne Terminator Lord who has a powerfield. Thats 2+ on 2D6 AND a 2++ he could take at the same time. Because in 2nd ed you had to shoot the nearest enemy my dad used to set him up directly in front of his army and just advance whilst this one guy soaked up ALL the firepower.

- in 3rd edition my Blood Angels friend used to play the death company variant list. 10x Death Company Terminators with Lightening Claws lead by Corbulo were unstoppable. 50A on the charge @S5, I5 ignoring all saves. With re-rolls to miss and to wound. Then they all had terminator armour and feel no pain.

- Baharroth in 3rd edition. His 'Sustained Attack' rule meant he basically kept rolling to hit until he missed for all his attacks, adding on a potentially infinite number of hits. I once saw him take out 30x Bloodletters in 2 turns on his own.

Flame Boy
09-02-2011, 19:03
I remember my entire Blood Angels army levelling their boltguns (yes, they weren't just frothing madmen back then!) at Ragnar Blackmane, who proceeded to Matrix-fu past everything, and then run into my marines and pull their legs off. This was before the Angels of Death Codex. When I finally got that and was able to field Mephiston to level the playing field, my friend had turned to Chaos, and my poor psycher spent the game trying to avoid Kharn and Abbadon foaming and snarling at him.

That was back in the day when Mephiston was a real hardcase, not like that watered-down version in the new codex! *runs for cover* :p

I remember one game where I threw a squad of Howling Banshees and Harlequins at Kharn, and in two turns time he was using their bones as toothpicks. Scary man.

Oh, I forgot the invisible Vindicare assassin that could blow apart a vehicle with a turbo penetrator round, then break the defences of the character inside with a shield-breaker round, then poison them badly with a hellfire round, and then finish off who was unlucky enough to be left alive with a hail of armour-piercing Strength 5 Exitus rifle shots. If you went into hiding, he still had a chance of hitting you, and you practically had to bump into him to be able to spot him. I eventually started an argument that I was going to blow up the tower he was perched in, simply because it was the most obvious vantage point for a sniper...

Easy E
09-02-2011, 21:34
My memory is hazy, but weren;t you suppose to randomly draw Wargear, or was that strategy cards, or both?

purplehoob
09-02-2011, 21:44
Ah yes the good old days....

Heavy Webbers mounted on Rhinos. Vortex support missiles and virus death if you didnt have a sealed suit.

I still have my Harlequins, sadly they lurk at the back of my box with the once deadly Solitare looking slightly miffed.

Robot Mantiples were fun. Writing the programs for them was a good laugh.

Dashed hard to kill they were!

[1430]Badger
09-02-2011, 22:52
My memory is hazy, but weren;t you suppose to randomly draw Wargear, or was that strategy cards, or both?

wargear cards you chose, strategy cards and psychic powers were chosen at random.

I miss teleporting into close combat, overpowered thunder hammers and sustained fire dice.

As for overpowered, IG comm link guy £3 model, allowed every guard tank a free shot before the game commenced.

Firmlog
10-02-2011, 14:29
It would be hard to say any army in RT or 2nd was cheesy as they were all cheesy. Since all had equal access to most wargear.

However a argument could be made for eldar since they could purchase every type of invulnerable save except a power field. Every other army had to us wargear to do the same taking a slot for some other wargear nastyness.

Also things like virus grenades and vortex grenades could be house ruled out and usually were.

Psykers were death on a stick. The firs real cheese I saw with 2nd was Tzeentch Librarian (which could use both Tzeentch and SM Librarian psychic powers) using gate to allow khorne terminators 2+ save on 2d6 with lightning claws assault across the board. Gate was a psychic power that allowed you to place 2 "gates" 18 inches away from him and models could move through those gates as if they were the same point. Technically the terminators could charge 42 inches.

But then again everything was cheesy.
Some other memorable 2nd cheese, by no means exclusive.
Dark Reaper exarchs -5 to hit in hard cover and couldn't be targeted till they fired.
Dark Angel Land speeders moving 36 inches with assault cannons and no speed penalty but were -4 to hit due to how fast they were moving and jink.
SM plasma blasters, Think plasma guns with the ROF of a heavy bolter.
Possesed Chaos predators with Ablative armor (ignored first penetration), extra armor +1 armor value all sides, escape crews (vehicle wasn't destroyed unit the crew that ejected out of it were killed.

RT Cheese.
SM armies with Power mauls and shock shields. Power mauls "knocked out" models wounded, so multi wound models were killed if wounded. Shock shields had both invuln saves and attacked a model that hit the marines in close combat.
Imperial guard commissar with Terminator armor, power field 2+, displacer field, and jump or flight packs, calling artillery strikes on his position after jumping into the middle of an army.
Burrowing squats, could arrive under an enemy squad attacking them then coming onto the table.


I'd say the first truly cheesy army was 3rd. ed Black Templars or the journal Harlequins. Black templars were marines but better, and had the first an only crusader (only LR with assault ramps) charged you if the failed/Passed??? a leadership test, first 15 man SM squads. Wound allocation (though not like todays, but for the time impressive) more HQ's than any other army.

Harlequins, 4 inch coherency (forget about templates), lots of power weapons, fleet, wounding and killing on 2+ regardless of wounds(?)HK., wraithlords with 4+ cover saves, characters with 12-13 attacks, dark reapers that killed a target and left an STR X AP X weapon.

BTW, though it was later 3rd, the first Sisters of Battle codex... Totally broken. Faith could almost move mountains.