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Tom Pearce
30-01-2011, 05:58
Hi there,

I have a battle scheduled with my brother & his friend Dave, who are playing Lizardmen & Ogre Kingdom respectively.

Can anyone offer any tips or tactics to fight these two armies?

I have a few ideas but am open to any suggestions at all.
I have never played them before.
We'll be playing with 2,000 points each.
It's going to be a three way battle.

I suspect that the Lizardmen army will rely heavily on the Slann Mage Priest who will have A Higher State Of Consciousness - immune to anything other than magical attacks which I'll struggle against with my dwarves.

I'm thinking of cutting down on Lords & tooled up characters in favour of a larger & more evenly spread selection of artillery & infantry.

Any suggestions would be most welcome!

Tom

Haravikk
30-01-2011, 10:47
A Rune of Burning on a cannon or Grudge Thrower will cause it's attacks to be magical, likewise with a Rune of Fire on any character's runic weapon. Absolutely any rune on a runic item or war machine will create magical attacks, those are just the cheapest in case you were planning to field any naked.

A cannon is a must I think for dealing with Stegadons and Ogre Kingdom's multi-wound models (of which they have a few!).


Otherwise the usual selection of great weapon wielding Dwarfs will serve you well, if you expect the Slann to try and bunker somewhere on the table then a unit of miners wouldn't go amiss, as they're a good unit in general, and can get you access to the Slann or any other weak point if the cannon(s) haven't dealt with him yet. It's worth remembering that if you're struggling to take down the Slann, just beat on his unit instead and try to break it and run it down.

For 2,000 points I wouldn't bother with a tooled up lord or a lord at all. You get good value out of a Thane with defensive runes and a great weapon if you want to bolster a unit, and a Runesmith with Master Rune of Balance could help with enemy magic, I usually take one around the 2,000 point mark myself to give enemy magic a kick in the teeth.

Gotrek
30-01-2011, 13:39
take a runesmith the MRoBalance and spellbreaking and a BSB, as many cannons and GTs as you like and as many blocks of infantary as you can. take a ranger unit as well just to silence scraplaunchers, attacks support units or flank/rear charge.

Stymie Jackson
30-01-2011, 19:55
I'd strongly suggest one Organ Gun to deal with skink skirmishers. Good for popping Ogres as well in a pinch.

_dandaman_
31-01-2011, 02:07
I have played ogres quite a bit, and you absolutely need a S5 grudge thrower. Thoes big blocks of 9+ orges look like swiss cheese after even one direct hit.

Have fun:

Dan

catbarf
31-01-2011, 04:26
Cannons, cannons, cannons. Anything that inflicts multiple wounds will blow the living hell out of Ogres. Besides that, you need large blocks of infantry to maintain Steadfast. Having low Initiative will hurt, but if your units are well-armored, they'll be able to survive the attacks of Bulls and hit back hard, or strike at least simultaneously with Ironguts.

Against Lizardmen, I have no idea.

TwoBitWriter
31-01-2011, 12:52
Great Weapons will be your friend. If you got them, I'd go with a strong unit of Hammerers.

I'd avoid Slayers, since you will likely face poison attacks and magic from the Lizardmen.

My two friends play Lizardmen and OK as well, so I'm frequently in the same pot as you! The horde of Bulls is a tough nut to crack, but a S5 Grudge Thrower will go a long way. A Cannon with at least a Rune of Burning will help toward the Slann (and any OK unit that their Butcher manages to give Regeneration to).

russellmoo
31-01-2011, 16:15
Thunderers might actually prove very useful in a game like this-

Also take as much Str 6 attacks as you can- so LB's with great weapons, and hammerers- since you are mainly fighting T4 or better-

Drongol
01-02-2011, 04:18
Really, Dwarfs have it all their own way in 8th. Here's some of the tricks you can pull to beat both Lizzies and Ogres:

1: Take 3 runed-up Cannons and 3 runed-up Grudge throwers. Take 2 Master Engineers and park them within 3" of your war machines. Instant rerolls!

2: Anvil of Doom. Seriously. You can either get a 1st turn charge with a Longbeard Ranger unit of doom, or you can slow up the charge as long as you'd like.

3: If you're going for the first-turn charge, take a BSB with Strollaz's Rune. Combined with the Anvil, you can charge 24+2d6" on the first turn, and Longbeard Rangers with Great Weapons are about as nasty as you're going to get.

4: 2 Organ Guns help against Skinks or anything in an Ogre list.

Frankly, I suggest taking a Runelord on an Anvil as your general and running a lot of Dwarfs with Great Weapons and war machines. S4 shooting, for Dwarfs, just isn't economical.

Braugi
01-02-2011, 14:19
Really, Dwarfs have it all their own way in 8th. Here's some of the tricks you can pull to beat both Lizzies and Ogres:

1: Take 3 runed-up Cannons and 3 runed-up Grudge throwers. Take 2 Master Engineers and park them within 3" of your war machines. Instant rerolls!

2: Anvil of Doom. Seriously. You can either get a 1st turn charge with a Longbeard Ranger unit of doom, or you can slow up the charge as long as you'd like.

3: If you're going for the first-turn charge, take a BSB with Strollaz's Rune. Combined with the Anvil, you can charge 24+2d6" on the first turn, and Longbeard Rangers with Great Weapons are about as nasty as you're going to get.

4: 2 Organ Guns help against Skinks or anything in an Ogre list.

Frankly, I suggest taking a Runelord on an Anvil as your general and running a lot of Dwarfs with Great Weapons and war machines. S4 shooting, for Dwarfs, just isn't economical.

There's actually significant debate over whether the Anvil will allow the LB Rangers to charge in the 1st turn (assuming you go first). I refer you to Bugmansbrewery.com for some long debates over the issue. The most experienced Dwarf players there seem to think you cannot. I'm on the fence myself...I think it SHOULD be allowable, but I don't know that the rules currently support it.

Tom Pearce
02-02-2011, 09:21
Hi everyone,

This is all incredibly useful.
I'll close to making an army list while I will post on the army list forum.
I have a couple of questions though:

1). DRONGOL: You mentioned that I should get 3 cannons and 3 grudge throwers.

I read in the codex that I can only get upto 4 special units for a 2,000 point army.
The cannons and the grudge throwers are special units so I can't have 6.
Am I missing something key?

2). Can I combine the extra dispel dice in the enemy magic phase if I have a Runesmith AND a Runelord - (i.e. 3 dispel dice)? Can I get a further 'free' dispel dice if I get the Anvil of Doom? Or do these dice just come out of the power pool?

3). Would anyone recommend that I keep my units of warriors / longbeards / hammerers large (24) or would you split them down into smaller units of 12 & cover a larger area on the field? Most threads in the forums seam to veer towards larger units...


Thanks again everyone - it's great advice.

Tom

Crazy Nigel
02-02-2011, 10:18
I think you should take Flame Cannon (I dont see why everyone keeps it so ******) because it has strenght high enough (Ok, 6 is better but...) and it makes D3 wounds. With Flame cannon you can wound more Ogres than with cannons because of template. It also works against hordes (if lizards have one) and if Ogre Ironguts (if he has them) have regeneretion (Ive heard that they can have it).

Remember Im not against cannons, they are better in some situations and are cheaper. Love them too!

Haravikk
02-02-2011, 11:01
I read in the codex that I can only get upto 4 special units for a 2,000 point army.
The cannons and the grudge throwers are special units so I can't have 6.
Am I missing something key?
You may want to check the FAQs (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&pageMode=multi&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2), with 8th edition the army composition summary in your armies books are no longer valid. In 8th you can have up to 4 of each special choice, and as many special choices in total as you like up to a maximum of 50% of your army's points value. Same for rares except that you can only have 2 of each, and up to 25%.


2). Can I combine the extra dispel dice in the enemy magic phase if I have a Runesmith AND a Runelord - (i.e. 3 dispel dice)? Can I get a further 'free' dispel dice if I get the Anvil of Doom? Or do these dice just come out of the power pool?
Dispel and Power dice pools are completely separate. Runesmiths add 1 dice each to your Dispel pool in the enemy's Magic phase, and Runelords add two each, with a further 1 if you have an anvil. So Dwarfs really can produce a huge number of dispel dice, add a Master Rune of Balance and you can steal an enemy Power Dice as well. For 2,000 points you definitely won't need such huge anti-magic, a Runesmith with Master Rune of Balance and maybe a Rune of Spellbreaking for good measure ought to be plenty.


3). Would anyone recommend that I keep my units of warriors / longbeards / hammerers large (24) or would you split them down into smaller units of 12 & cover a larger area on the field? Most threads in the forums seam to veer towards larger units...
I think you'll want units of at least 20, though it doesn't hurt to have a mixture, for example you might have one of 30, two of 20, and a couple of mobile units of 10. I general play with units of 20 myself, and have only recently been adding a horde of 30 into the mix, and find that blocks of 20 are solid against most opponents. Remember that you don't want any of your units to be going toe-to-toe with a single enemy unless it's an especially weak one, you should always be striving to bring in a second unit to support them.
This is one of the reasons that Quarrellers with Great Weapons are so popular these days as they can soften up the enemy and make great supporting units once combat is joined.

Braugi
02-02-2011, 14:12
There's a lot of good advice here, but I also recommend you check out bugmansbrewery.

Typically, in 2000pts, if I'm playing more of a semi gunline defensive army, I feild either 2 Grudge Throwers and one cannon or vice versa, with an Organ Gun as well. Grudge Throwers should have the Rune of Accuracy and Rune of Penetrating....you can do this with both by adding the 5 pt. rune of fire to one of them as well. I've experimented with using a Master Engineer, placing him between two War Machines, and putting a base 45 pt. Bolt Thrower in front of him, then using his entrenchment ability to protect the Organ Gun, which I use to protect my flank.

This leaves lots of points for big blocks of GW weilding warriors, which are pretty impressive in this edition.

Oh, and typically, its recommended that you bring some magic defense. The standard recommendation is a Runelord with MR Balance and a Rune of Spellbreaking or two Runepriests, one with MR Balance the other with a Rune of Spellbreaking. Against a Slaan, thats not a bad idea, but I've found that if your opponents don't go magic heavy, one Runepriest with either the MR of Balance or a rune of Spellbreaking is sufficient.

Drongol
02-02-2011, 16:22
[QUOTE=Haravikk;5283609] In 8th you can have up to 4 of each special choice, and as many special choices in total as you like up to a maximum of 50% of your army's points value. Same for rares except that you can only have 2 of each, and up to 25%.[/quote.]

Actually, isn't it three of each special unit and 2 of each rare? Hence my 3 cannons and 3 GT suggestion.

And for the record, the reason nobody takes Flame Cannons is because they are terrible units made even worse by 8th. No range, no mobility, no point.

Haravikk
03-02-2011, 12:43
Actually, isn't it three of each special unit and 2 of each rare? Hence my 3 cannons and 3 GT suggestion.
Oops, I think you're right; I'm giving advice about the difference in editions and I clearly don't know them all myself :D


And yes, Flame Cannons are horribly over-priced. An Organ Gun will do more damage over the course of a game, at a longer effective range, and for 20 less points. In 7th edition the flame cannon was more viable as it had a guess range so it could shoot further than it does now, meaning it could deliver its very vicious template at a similar range to an Organ Gun, and force Panic checks.
But in 8th you get less time to shoot on average, Panic is largely meaningless to an army with a battle standard, and the Flame Cannon has lost its guess range so it shoots at around half the distance it used to.
Skaven Warpfire Thrower costs half the points and is just as effective, if not more-so as it moves more easily and also counts as magical.

That said, I still want the model, and when I do get one I'll certainly use it just because I have one, but doing so you're basically throwing away points 70 points from it being over-priced, that you could have spent on more elite infantry. And you probably won't get anything out of it since it's difficult to get it any good targets.

Necronoxz
03-02-2011, 16:44
Well agains the slann

do you know if he field it on his own or does he field it in a bunker tempel guards?

If its on his one take the chorocopter (or how its named). Harras his slan and shoot a bit on it. The cannon balls will close the deal on it.

If its in a unit of tempel guards, Let the ogre player deal with it and kill the other troops of the lizardmen player. mayby 1 cannon ball on it and away tody!

For your army put a few unit's of gunners. some cannon's and organ gun. and make sure you have at least 1 good combat unit. warriors or something. Just shoot everything that moves within 18" of your army and let your warriors deal with the remaining crap.

I think you can handel it ;)

minionboy
03-02-2011, 22:07
Take the magic banner that auto dispells RIP spells. Speaking from experience, that'll really **** off the ogres.