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Harbinger17
30-01-2011, 19:40
my opponent insists that he gets a "look out sir" for his mage when i shoot it.

1. the mage is not in a unit at all
2. im not using any template weapons.
3. He says the mage will get a "look out sir" if he is within 3" of a friendly unit.

So heres the scenario...
I use Ellyrian Reavers to flank his mage who is on foot by a large block of bloodletters. see diagram below.

E
E
E
E________M
E________BBBBBBBBBB
_________BBBBBBBBBB
_________BBBBBBBBBB

I shoot 5 shots and 4 hit. 3 of those wound. He then takes 3 "Look Out Sir" rolls. He makes them and then 3 Bloodletters die in the mages place. Is this legal???

Oberon
30-01-2011, 19:45
There's even a picture of this in the rulebook. As long as the unit near his mage is of the same unit type(=infantry usually), he gets LOS. But only 4+ los, not 2+ like within a unit.

Harbinger17
30-01-2011, 19:47
There's even a picture of this in the rulebook. As long as the unit near his mage is of the same unit type(=infantry usually), he gets LOS. But only 4+ los, not 2+ like within a unit.

alright. the mage is also on a Disc of tzeentch. does this make him a diff unit type?

asphodel
30-01-2011, 19:56
If the BL had different Toughness than the mage, how would that work?

I'm pretty sure the disc turns its rider into just that, a rider. Here's a post from an earlier edition http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26027 that discusses DoT as being a steed.

Anyway, I'd nix this player just for the three columns of 10 crap he's pulling. The DoT mage getting LOS is, as far as I know, a rules violation since it would be a different unit type (unless the rules for DoT have changed, which is entirely possible I guess).

Oberon
30-01-2011, 20:24
alright. the mage is also on a Disc of tzeentch. does this make him a diff unit type?

Of course it does. You forgot to mention that in the original post though. :shifty:

Asphodel: why would different T matter here?

The_Lemon
30-01-2011, 20:29
Actually when you do a LOS roll is to avoid HITS, not wounds, so you will roll to hit with your reavers, hit 4 of them, then he rolls for LOS (4+) and then you roll to wound for the mage and for the unit.
But mage has to be the same troop type as the unit he is near or else there will be no LOS.
Bloodletters are infantry a mage on top of a disc is cavalry because a disc is a war beast.

Warrior of Chaos
30-01-2011, 20:30
As far as I understand you get the LOS if you are within 3" of a friendly unit (or embedded in a friendly unit), provided they are of the same troop type. It also only works for template attacks (cannon lines also counting as templates). If in a unit, you only get it if you have at least 5 rank and file models remaining (not including the character). If his wiz was mounted on a DoT, then his type changes from infantry because he is mounted.

I don't see how he would benefit from a LOS from his infantry unit since he is not infantry AND you didn't use a template. :shifty:

Harbinger17
30-01-2011, 20:41
As far as I understand you get the LOS if you are within 3" of a friendly unit (or embedded in a friendly unit), provided they are of the same troop type. It also only works for template attacks (cannon lines also counting as templates). If in a unit, you only get it if you have at least 5 rank and file models remaining (not including the character). If his wiz was mounted on a DoT, then his type changes from infantry because he is mounted.

I don't see how he would benefit from a LOS from his infantry unit since he is not infantry AND you didn't use a template. :shifty:


There's even a picture of this in the rulebook. As long as the unit near his mage is of the same unit type(=infantry usually), he gets LOS. But only 4+ los, not 2+ like within a unit.


so does he get LOS or not???

Warrior of Chaos
30-01-2011, 20:58
The short answer is NO.;)

He would get it IF:

1) He were dismounted and you used a template attack against him (provided he was within 3" of that infantry unit)

2) He were mounted on his disc (which is considered a warbeast) and you used a template attack against him within 3" of a cavalry unit.

Why he is wrong given the scenario you presented:

1) You didn't use a template.

2) Wrong troop type to gain LOS.

Hope this helps.

Leth Shyish'phak
30-01-2011, 21:16
It doesn't need to be a template. If you shoot a character who is within 3" of a unit of the same type, he gets a 4+ look out sir roll against all hits.

FestHest
30-01-2011, 21:31
Actually the answer is Yes, but only if he is of the same troop type as the unit he is 3" away from.

p. 96-97 BRB "Shooting at lone characters"

p.97 BRB Top:"If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of any kind (including shots fired using ballistic skill, template and so on) a "Look out Sir!" roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more models consisting of the character's troop type within 3"".

If he is on a disc (troop type warbeast "WB" p. 488/489 BRB) he is classified "Monstrous Cavalry"(p. 105 BRB).

T10
30-01-2011, 22:03
so does he get LOS or not???

With regards to your original situation: He benefits from the Look Out Sir! rule as described in the rules for Lone Characters (pp. 96-97).

As has already been pointed out, he gets a single roll per shooting hit, and if the roll is successful the hit is is transferred to a model the protecting unit.

-T10

TMATK
30-01-2011, 22:04
...

If he is on a disc (troop type warbeast "WB" p. 488/489 BRB) he is classified "Monstrous Cavalry"(p. 105 BRB).

He would be regular cavalry. Riding monstrous beasts makes characters monstrous cavalry (p84-85)

FestHest
30-01-2011, 22:08
He would be regular cavalry. Riding monstrous beasts makes characters monstrous cavalry (p84-85)

You are absolutely correct.

Warrior of Chaos
30-01-2011, 22:08
Actually the answer is Yes, but only if he is of the same troop type as the unit he is 3" away from.

p. 96-97 BRB "Shooting at lone characters"

p.97 BRB Top:"If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of any kind (including shots fired using ballistic skill, template and so on) a "Look out Sir!" roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more models consisting of the character's troop type within 3"".



I stand corrected. Thanks FestHest for the page note. Will make a note of that for future reference. :D

As to the OP question then, the answer is still "no" because on a disc his character is still the wrong troop type to gain the benefit.

Grimskarr
31-01-2011, 01:54
With regards to your original situation: He benefits from the Look Out Sir! rule as described in the rules for Lone Characters (pp. 96-97).

As has already been pointed out, he gets a single roll per shooting hit, and if the roll is successful the hit is is transferred to a model the protecting unit.

-T10


Are you sure he makes a roll for each hit? I've wondered about this and I think the rule is unclear.

However, based upon the precedent set in the regular LOS (when the character is within a unit) I would argue that only ONE 4+ roll is made.

When a shooting attack is made against a unit, the character within it only rolls once and only one model will die in his place should the roll be successful.

If the character is within 3" of a unit and he fails the LOS roll only one model dies. If he is successful then someone runs out of the unit and pushes him safely out of the way and dies in his place. Remember that the enemy is shooting in a volley, not one shot at a time and so they don't each re-aim if successful LOS rolls are made against the first and second shot (and so on). If you had to roll for each hit you could have this ludicrous situation happen:


20 Glade Guard shot at a character within 3" of 10 handgunners. 10 shots hit. The character makes 7 successful LOS rolls (yeah, right - but bear with me). 4 of the 7 hits fail to wound but 3 do. The handgunners panic and run away. Now there is no unit within 3" of the character and the final 3 hits are resolved against the character which successfully kill him. Two birds with one stone for the Wood Elves.

What makes sense about the above example. Nothing. It makes just as little sense to say that with multiple hits that multiple models are going to run out and take one shot at a time for the character.

It makes sense that it is all or nothing. If the LOS roll is successful one model has been heroic and sacrificed himself to take all the hits intended for the character. The entire volley lands on him instead of the character and shooters curse their poor luck.

Warrior of Chaos
31-01-2011, 02:39
It makes sense that it is all or nothing. If the LOS roll is successful one model has been heroic and sacrificed himself to take all the hits intended for the character. The entire volley lands on him instead of the character and shooters curse their poor luck.

This is how I would play it. It makes the most sense thematically. But i'm still a novice to the game and do make plenty of mistakes.:p

T10
31-01-2011, 09:09
Are you sure he makes a roll for each hit? I've wondered about this and I think the rule is unclear.

However, based upon the precedent set in the regular LOS (when the character is within a unit) I would argue that only ONE 4+ roll is made.

When a shooting attack is made against a unit, the character within it only rolls once and only one model will die in his place should the roll be successful.


It is one roll per hit. The regular Look Out Sir! rule deals with template weapons that typically end up causing a multiple hits on a single unit, but only a single hit per model.

Thus you typically make a single Look Out Sir! roll per character/champion per template attack because the model was only hit once.




If the character is within 3" of a unit and he fails the LOS roll only one model dies. If he is successful then someone runs out of the unit and pushes him safely out of the way and dies in his place. Remember that the enemy is shooting in a volley, not one shot at a time and so they don't each re-aim if successful LOS rolls are made against the first and second shot (and so on). If you had to roll for each hit you could have this ludicrous situation happen:


20 Glade Guard shot at a character within 3" of 10 handgunners. 10 shots hit. The character makes 7 successful LOS rolls (yeah, right - but bear with me). 4 of the 7 hits fail to wound but 3 do. The handgunners panic and run away. Now there is no unit within 3" of the character and the final 3 hits are resolved against the character which successfully kill him. Two birds with one stone for the Wood Elves.

What makes sense about the above example. Nothing. It makes just as little sense to say that with multiple hits that multiple models are going to run out and take one shot at a time for the character.

It makes sense that it is all or nothing. If the LOS roll is successful one model has been heroic and sacrificed himself to take all the hits intended for the character. The entire volley lands on him instead of the character and shooters curse their poor luck.

I'm not sure what you think doesn't make sense. The fact that the hits are rolled for separately? That "heroic sacrifice" casualties may cause panic tests? That a single unit can both destroy a target and cause panic in another?

In your example, the handgunners would need to take a panic test anyway because the wizard was killed (friendly unit within 6 inches destroyed by shooting or magic).

-T10

Warrior of Chaos
31-01-2011, 11:22
It is one roll per hit. The regular Look Out Sir! rule deals with template weapons that typically end up causing a multiple hits on a single unit, but only a single hit per model.-T10

Aha...well, it gives damn good incentive to put your heroes in units to hide from the hail of raining doom.:evilgrin:

Mid'ean
31-01-2011, 11:27
T10 has it right. The regular Look Out Sir! rule deals with template weapons that typically end up causing a multiple hits on a single unit, but only a single hit per model.

In the above example of 20 glade guard shooting at a lone character he doesn't get any LoS roll as the shots aren't a template. He gets turned into a pincushion.

shelfunit.
31-01-2011, 12:15
T10 has it right. The regular Look Out Sir! rule deals with template weapons that typically end up causing a multiple hits on a single unit, but only a single hit per model.

In the above example of 20 glade guard shooting at a lone character he doesn't get any LoS roll as the shots aren't a template. He gets turned into a pincushion.

Shots are from any source - template or not. LoS! will still apply if the lone character is within 3" of identical troop type.

Mid'ean
31-01-2011, 13:19
Shots are from any source - template or not. LoS! will still apply if the lone character is within 3" of identical troop type.

I stand corrected. Just looked up in the character section. It does say any kind.....good to know!

theorox
31-01-2011, 13:36
He can only get look out sir against templates i thought. :wtf:

Theo

Braugi
31-01-2011, 13:40
He can only get look out sir against templates i thought. :wtf:

Theo

No, it talks specifically about the difficulty of shooting at lone characters. They are no longer -1 to hit, but they get a LOS if they're close to a unit of the same troop type.

theorox
31-01-2011, 13:49
That's much better for the character i'd think. :)

Theo

Mid'ean
31-01-2011, 13:59
But I would hate to have to make a horde of LoS rolls for a archer unit that is shooting at me...:eyebrows: It doesn't say that you lump all the hits into one save. That would be to much to have just one guy take the entire load of arrows. It say the hit is transferred. If I hit you ten times. I would take it you are making 10 LoS saves.

shelfunit.
31-01-2011, 14:11
But I would hate to have to make a horde of LoS rolls for a archer unit that is shooting at me...:eyebrows: It doesn't say that you lump all the hits into one save. That would be to much to have just one guy take the entire load of arrows. It say the hit is transferred. If I hit you ten times. I would take it you are making 10 LoS saves.

That's how I read it, fortunately haven't had to take more than 1 at a time from WM snipers yet...

jaxom
31-01-2011, 18:50
Mid'ean, did you read this thread or the BRB pages it cites? pp. 96-97 explicitly cover shooting which is non-template and LoS is explicitly granted. In the case of 20 Glade Guard shooting at a lone character he may have a heck of a time making his LoS rolls but he gets one for each hit scored (pre-wound) by the Glade Guard.

Regarding a Disc of Tzeench, it is a WB so with a rider it becomes Cavalry. The Wizard to which the OP refers only gets his LoS if he is within range of a Cav unit, not an infantry unit.

Mid'ean
31-01-2011, 19:44
Mid'ean, did you read this thread or the BRB pages it cites? pp. 96-97 explicitly cover shooting which is non-template and LoS is explicitly granted. In the case of 20 Glade Guard shooting at a lone character he may have a heck of a time making his LoS rolls but he gets one for each hit scored (pre-wound) by the Glade Guard.

Regarding a Disc of Tzeench, it is a WB so with a rider it becomes Cavalry. The Wizard to which the OP refers only gets his LoS if he is within range of a Cav unit, not an infantry unit.

Yes I have read the thread and if you read a couple post up admitted I was wrong and found it on the pages you listed. And if you read just a couple post up I stated exactly what you wrote above. So what's your point?

Lex
01-02-2011, 16:15
Are you sure he makes a roll for each hit? I've wondered about this and I think the rule is unclear.

However, based upon the precedent set in the regular LOS (when the character is within a unit) I would argue that only ONE 4+ roll is made.

When a shooting attack is made against a unit, the character within it only rolls once and only one model will die in his place should the roll be successful.

If the character is within 3" of a unit and he fails the LOS roll only one model dies. If he is successful then someone runs out of the unit and pushes him safely out of the way and dies in his place. Remember that the enemy is shooting in a volley, not one shot at a time and so they don't each re-aim if successful LOS rolls are made against the first and second shot (and so on). If you had to roll for each hit you could have this ludicrous situation happen:


20 Glade Guard shot at a character within 3" of 10 handgunners. 10 shots hit. The character makes 7 successful LOS rolls (yeah, right - but bear with me). 4 of the 7 hits fail to wound but 3 do. The handgunners panic and run away. Now there is no unit within 3" of the character and the final 3 hits are resolved against the character which successfully kill him. Two birds with one stone for the Wood Elves.

What makes sense about the above example. Nothing. It makes just as little sense to say that with multiple hits that multiple models are going to run out and take one shot at a time for the character.

It makes sense that it is all or nothing. If the LOS roll is successful one model has been heroic and sacrificed himself to take all the hits intended for the character. The entire volley lands on him instead of the character and shooters curse their poor luck.

This won't happen as the panic check is after all of the shooting as been fully resolved against the unit. A LoS! roll is made for each hit. However, I did recently make the same mistake others have made thinking it was only available against templates. Live and learn. I don't have my book in front of me, but do fleeing units count for the LoS!?

a18no
01-02-2011, 16:34
This won't happen as the panic check is after all of the shooting as been fully resolved against the unit. A LoS! roll is made for each hit. However, I did recently make the same mistake others have made thinking it was only available against templates. Live and learn. I don't have my book in front of me, but do fleeing units count for the LoS!?

Panic check are done at the EXACT time where a unit receive casulty. You must resolve active shooting: unit A must shoot everything, then panic check can be done, unit B then shoot, panic check can be done, unit C shoot, etc. but other that that panic check are no longer at the end of a phase (but still only one per phase).

Lex
01-02-2011, 17:21
Panic check are done at the EXACT time where a unit receive casulty. You must resolve active shooting: unit A must shoot everything, then panic check can be done, unit B then shoot, panic check can be done, unit C shoot, etc. but other that that panic check are no longer at the end of a phase (but still only one per phase).

Right. His situation had one unit shooting and then the panic check occuring before resolving all of that unit's shooting. All 7 of the hits from that Glade Guard unit must be resolved on the handgunners before the panic check is made. You don't panic in the middle of a single unit's shooting attacks. When I said "all of the shooting" I simply meant all of the shooting he had in his scenario.