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View Full Version : Would you play against a non BA stormraven? (Merged with BT Stormraven thread)



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vahouth
01-02-2011, 06:31
There's a lot of fuss about non BA armies fielding the Stormraven.
Others wouldn't play against it because it's not in the dex, others would play against it because they believe that they will have it eventually...
Everyone has a reason for arguments.
Personally I wouldn't allow it on the moment, because I IMO it feels like picking
the best parts of varius codeci for a game.
What's your take on it?

Hendarion
01-02-2011, 06:33
I agree, it would be Codex-Bashing. As long as it is not officially released for other armies, I won't allow it. After all, it would be the same as using a Baal Predator in non-BA-armies. At least at the moment.

Born Again
01-02-2011, 06:40
Depends whether or not GW make an official statement that other SM armies can use it.

Hendarion
01-02-2011, 06:46
Well, so far they didn't. ;)

Dwane Diblie
01-02-2011, 06:49
I would allow it to be used in other marine lists as long as they only bring one. Any more and they may as well play BAs anyway if they want an army that fast.

Wise Guy Sam
01-02-2011, 06:54
Against mates I have no problems. I would suggest they pay maybe 10% more for it though or let me start with d3 pain tokens that I can dispense at deployment. Fair is fair :p

vahouth
01-02-2011, 07:01
Against mates I have no problems. I would suggest they pay maybe 10% more for it though or let me start with d3 pain tokens that I can dispense at deployment. Fair is fair :p

So, you recon there is a game balance issue when armies other than BA field it?

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 07:02
Ditch 'Skies of Blood' and I'd allow it. Just like I would let a C:SM use a Baal Predator for 15 points less and without the 'Fast' rule. Why not? It's all about having fun with your models. If you bought it and painted it up and made it look pretty as part of your army, sure, why not.

Then again, I am a crazy, toy-soldiers liberal. You should fear me and my agenda. :D

Reflex
01-02-2011, 07:03
while we are at it, can i use raiders in my eldar army? I mean they are both eldar so its cool.

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 07:20
Two completely different factions of Eldar with no reason to have the same equipment at all. And I'd still let you use them, just none of the DEldar upgrades for them.

xerxeshavelock
01-02-2011, 07:35
I've got no problem playing against it as I have no illusion that 40K is some finely crafted example of balance that would be disrupted by introducing a Stormraven. I have often thought that the marines should have this type of transport (since watching We Were Soldiers in fact), and look forward to the stories that can be made using it. To not play against it is to deny myself a potentially cool gaming experience.

If practicing for a tourney of course I would like to simulate what I may come across and would stick to the "whats in the codex" rule, in exactly the same wayI wouldn't play against Forge World stuff.

Wise Guy Sam
01-02-2011, 07:49
So, you recon there is a game balance issue when armies other than BA field it?

Not really the point.

I play for fun, if a regular space marine opponent would like to try it out in a few games then that's okay with me as it would fit a SM force nicely and provide some variation I may not usually see. However a house rule on these things should create a slight disadvantage for the person who wishes to alter the rules, preventing any ridiculous changes (imo) and keeping everyone in line. Kind of like the IA books that offer variation that may not be WAAC's

Again this is just for games with close mates and a few beers, not a tournament scene where things are more serious. I also think my opponent would need to come up with a good 'fluffy' reason why his non BA marines have a Stormraven.

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 07:58
Again this is just for games with close mates and a few beers, not a tournament scene where things are more serious. I also think my opponent would need to come up with a good 'fluffy' reason why his non BA marines have a Stormraven.

I don't think you understand, there's no such thing as 'games with close mates'. ALL games are serious. This is Warhammer, damn it, not something you do for fun, like your job or school, man! :shifty:


And, as far as a fluffy reason goes, use the same one the BA use. It's a new addition to their armoury from a recently-put-into-service STC found on Mars at the start of the 41st Millenium.

chromedog
01-02-2011, 08:03
I'd play against a GK (GK aren't sparkly vampire angels last time I checked) as the kit DOES have GK bits in it, or against a BA successor chapter one (who while they might share the same ancestry, are also NOT BA, technically).

DA with one?
UM with one?

Probably not.

The chances of me playing against either of them? Slim. NO-ONE in my area plays either. Same goes for Salamanders, Templars, or the 990 odd other SM chapters that use the UM codex. Most SM players are using Wolves or BA with their plain grey plastic marines (until something better comes out).

Chem-Dog
01-02-2011, 08:04
Sure, I'd play against Non-Blood Angels Storm Ravens. Provided, of course, they're happy with my Imperial Guard Monolith, Squads of guardsmen mounted in Devilfish and command squads mounted in Venoms.:shifty:


I too believe the SR will become widely utilised by Space Marine Chapters and wouldn't want to discourage people who don't own players who own non BA codex chapters from buying a Raven or two and painting it up in their own livery.

There's always Apocalypse, that would allow you to use a Raven no matter what army you own.

Hypaspist
01-02-2011, 08:06
I wouldn't play with it myself, because I like to stick to what's in my codex, (Dark Angels) and as I refuse to field my Dark Angel's as (Green Marines, Red marines, Newest Codex Marines) anything else, I would never play with it.

I don't hold friends to the same restrictions so would be happy to see a new model used in a non Blood Angels army.

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 08:07
Well, personally I'm not a fan of the unit's existence in general (it felt like a rather hamfisted last minute inclusion that just gives too much mobility to very assault capable army), and it's not exactly a model that's all that pleasing to look at, but in all honesty its probably not really all that more abuseable in a C:SM army than it would be in C:BA.

Charax
01-02-2011, 08:11
I'd play against it if I can take Chaos Daemons units in my CSM army.

tit for tat. you want to take a unit from another codex, you should be prepared to let me do the same

Poseidal
01-02-2011, 08:14
I don't see why they can't use the BA rules if they want to use it. It's not as if a codex marine army is vastly different to BA.

They might lose some interesting options, but that's the trade-off for a Stormraven list currently.

Maybe they want to use it with Vulkan to get to Flamer/Melta faster (and safer)?

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 08:25
Sure, I'd play against Non-Blood Angels Storm Ravens. Provided, of course, they're happy with my Imperial Guard Monolith, Squads of guardsmen mounted in Devilfish and command squads mounted in Venoms.:shifty:

Not sure how serious you are, good sir, but, this isn't specifically a rebuttal to you so much as people who take this stance: Where is the logic?

Those armies, fluffwise, are in no way related in any way, shape or form.

Now, let's say you have an idea for something story driven, not 'I want this unit because it is awesome so here's a reason,' but, 'here's an interesting tale in the grimdark future for me and my mate to play out in a game of Warhammmer 40,000'. This idea is humans who are working as agents of a C'tan (ie, being used) or a Tau force utilising Gue'vesa or other alien mercenaries, or, perhaps, an IG force (perhaps PDF or a Rogue Trader) who have hired some Blood Axe or Freeboota mercs, then, well, let's do it.


I'd play against it if I can take Chaos Daemons units in my CSM army.

tit for tat. you want to take a unit from another codex, you should be prepared to let me do the same

I've a friend who played Chaos and laments the loss of his god-specific daemons. I've told him time and again that if he ever wanted to play a game, I'd have no issues with him using the Daemons at the points they cost in Chaos Daemons, but without upgrades and using the summoning rules etc. from the Chaos Space Marines codex. Again, why not?

At the end of the day, it is a game we play for fun. So, as long as you and the person you are playing are happy, do whatever you want.

thoughtfoxx
01-02-2011, 08:26
Personally speaking I wouldnt. Simply because it opens up a can of cross codexing worms that wont stop just with the storm raven. That said I am more than happy to play apocalypse games where my opponent is free to do whatever they like really. [although I am not a great fan of fighting against one opponent who makes wierd mixes just because they can like 'nids, tau and chaos marines all in one force.]

vahouth
01-02-2011, 08:33
I don't see why they can't use the BA rules if they want to use it. It's not as if a codex marine army is vastly different to BA.

They might lose some interesting options, but that's the trade-off for a Stormraven list currently.

Maybe they want to use it with Vulkan to get to Flamer/Melta faster (and safer)?

Vastly different no, but different non the less.
The way I see it, whoever wants to use the SR with Vulkan to get to Flamer/Melta, could also deep strike him with a Land Raider, while having Baals on the list for some scouting or outflanking twin linked goodyness.
Now that's fun.:angel:

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 08:38
Maybe they want to use it with Vulkan to get to Flamer/Melta faster (and safer)?

Which, in my opinion, would be the wrong reasons and I would say no.

And the reason I'd say they have to drop Skies of Blood off the SR or Fast from the Baal is because they are Blood Angels specific. Then again, I could also probably not only be talked out of this, but also talked into letting you give your other Rhino variants the Fast special rule for +15pts for a game just to mix things up. Because why not, really.:p

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 08:39
I'd let people use it in friendly games as long as they asked nicely. But then again they could do that of anything, I wouldn't mind Raiders in an Eldar army (Could make an interesting pirate force) or Long Fangs and Plague Marines in a Guard Vendetta army, it would just make it more a challenge. And I can always decline if I get bored.

Overlord Krycis
01-02-2011, 08:41
Would I let other marine players use a SR in their non-BA armies...hell yes.

The GWs local to me have all said that "If you buy one you WILL be allowed to use it" no matter what (loyalist) marine army you have.
I'm getting one (and ONLY one) for my SW successor chapter...but then it's more for the coolness/converting/modelling factor than the fact that I want to start mixing the units I use from multiple codicies.
If my opponent says they don't want to play me if I use it (outside of a tournament setting of course) then I'll just sub it for a Land Raider and drop some Grey Hunters...I'm sure they'll want me to put the armour 12 SR back in after that... ;)

Lord Damocles
01-02-2011, 08:55
No.

I notice my Necrons don't have access to Terminators* either...


*Yet. I heard from a guy in the pub - who was real certain, like - that they're getting them in White Dwarf. The fact that the relevant White Dwarf makes no mention of this neither here nor there...:shifty:

Thoume
01-02-2011, 09:03
Its going to be something of a rarity in these parts, so it doesn't matter what flavour marine army its going in, just means someone was brave enough to get one!

I would however have no qualms over playing against an epic-scale version of it with a squadron of fightabommers in a custom Aeronautica Imperialis mission 'Stop the Stormpigeon!'

Stonerhino
01-02-2011, 09:03
I would not mind as it will eventually find it's way into the codex chapters anyways. I might on the other hand have a problem with say Space Wolves fielding them. Unless they model it into a flying pimp mobile for Bjorn. And no one else rides in it. Hey when your 10,000+ years old you have some pull.

But I would also not have a problem with say fielding some IG units with Tau or even some Necron units with IG. I probably would not have a problem with someone fielding the Deciever in any army outside of Deamons.

Vimes
01-02-2011, 09:09
I would, as long my opponent asks me before agreeing to play and he uses it with any space marine army. As Lothlanathorian correctly wrote, it's a game and we play for fun.:)

Gingerwerewolf
01-02-2011, 09:19
I would definately allow my opponent to play with a Stormraven IF he were paying some sort of Space Marine Force.

But thats the caveat isnt it, and what a lot of people seem to forget when saying Imperial Guard in a Devilfish or similar. Space Marine Armies are inherently similar, fluff wise come from the same place and mostly have access to the same things from the Adeptus Mechanicum.

A more equivilent comparison doesnt exist, except maybe with Chaos.

Would you allow a Chaos Space Marine player to take options from the Daemon Codex as his Daemon choice?

And incidently I would have no problem with the Imperial Guard as an allied force to Tau. Obvuiously that regiment has been subsumed to the Greater Good.

In the same way, Id have no problem with Shryke being used as an Ally to the Blood Angels, however his Combat Tactics would only effect Raven Guard Marines, not the Blood Angels. (As much as Id love to have Blood Angel assault troops with Fleet its just too much really)

I guess what Im trying to say is: Use common sense and you should be fine.

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 09:22
Common sense? Common sense?! Sir, you are a madman!!

Nomrana Est
01-02-2011, 09:25
In my opinion, it's centred around GW. If they have printed the rules in WD, allowing it's use across the entirety of the SM, I'd have no problem. If not, then I do have a problem.

BA, their successor Chapters and GK I will certainly not say no, as they're supposed to have the SR, and it'll give me a new strategic challenge to deal with, which I would look forward to playing against.

Of course, in Apoc, then everything goes. I can't say I'm not going to play against a SW SR in a 3000+ point game. Those games are meant to be over the top and silly.


Common sense? Common sense?! Sir, you are a madman!!

Sigged! :D

Minsc
01-02-2011, 09:47
Either you use the rules in C:UM, in C:SW or in C:BA.
You don't dip and take whatever you like in either just because 'your' codex doesn't have something you would like.
(I don't care if they are "all marines" - they have different codices and different rules for a reason.)

With that said however, I would allow my SM opponent to field one if he lets my CSM field daemons from the daemon codex. (What!? they're 'aligned'!)

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-02-2011, 09:50
Already doing so, though I haven't ordered a model for it yet, I'm using my Landraiders as proxies until I decide if I ultimately want two or just one. And none of my local opponents have had a problem with it yet either, total non-issue.

Bunnahabhain
01-02-2011, 09:57
If they're playing loyalist marines, regardless of flavour, yes.

If they're playing Orks, and the looting process has improved the look of the thing significantly, YES!

If a CSM player has put in the the time and effort to converting it suitably, then yes.
(all with suitable rules adaptations- mainly lose skies of blood)

Others, no.
I can't see how giving any marine army it will hurt game balance much. After all, they're dumping a land raiders worth of points into something that autcannons will bring down....
All the Ork Players I know are good fun, and laid back players, so let them have their nice looted toys.

I do wish the thing didn't exist at all, as the fluff is awful, and the model worse. EDIT. Can't marine players be happy with drop pods, thunder hawk ( resin/plastic) FW SM stuff that will stay resin, and Navy fliers?

Gingerwerewolf
01-02-2011, 10:07
Common sense? Common sense?! Sir, you are a madman!!

Awesome however:


In a mad world, only the mad are sane.

Gingerwerewolf
01-02-2011, 10:09
Already doing so, though I haven't ordered a model for it yet, I'm using my Landraiders as proxies until I decide if I ultimately want two or just one. And none of my local opponents have had a problem with it yet either, total non-issue.

Have you mounted your Landraider on a Flight Base? Im not saying that not to is cheating, I just want to see a Flying Landraider. ;)

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-02-2011, 10:16
Have you mounted your Landraider on a Flight Base? Im not saying that not to is cheating, I just want to see a Flying Landraider. ;)

I thought about that. :D But couldn't find a good way to do it without making significant structural alterations to the LR.

xerxeshavelock
01-02-2011, 10:39
I'd play against it if I can take Chaos Daemons units in my CSM army.

I also don't see that as unreasonable - though unlike another poster I would prefer them to use the Codex Daemon summoning rules as I believe they are fairer in this instance.

What this shows is that there is always going to be a degree of subjectivity in changing anything from what is written by the rule creators. I understand that this makes some people feel uncomfortable, maybe because they have come up against unscrupulous opponents before, or maybe they play so infrequently that they'd prefer just to stick to the basics. I don't see that as a negative necesarily, but I am pro-variety and in this instance think the fun that can be got for both players outweighs the hassle of ensuring balance.

Lothlanathorian
01-02-2011, 10:48
I also don't see that as unreasonable - though unlike another poster I would prefer them to use the Codex Daemon summoning rules as I believe they are fairer in this instance.



I was saying CSM summoning rules so that way you aren't forced to deploy half of them at the start somewhere unsupported and then trickle in the rest. Then again, I guess it would depend on the 'story' behind what is going on in the fight and which 'ritual' was 'performed' beforehand. :shifty:

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 10:48
I would, precisely because the Stormraven already is no longer exclusive to one chapter.

The Stormraven is IMO nothing like Thunderwolves or Death Company or Baals because, both in the Blood Angel Dex itself, as well as in all available rumors and previews and sightings of the boxed set, it is painfully obvious that the Stormraven was not only designed for Blood Angels, but already for Blood Angels and the next Marine-Dex in the pipeline that has (as far as different Marine Chapters go) nothing at all to do with Blood Angels; namely Grey Knights.

Or, inverse, why do Grey Knights (most likely) not get Death Company, or Baals, or Inferno Pistols, or Fast Rhinos, or Sanguinary Guard? Answer: Because those are things unique to the Blood Angels. But why do they get the Stormraven? Answer: Because it is not a unique Blood Angel thing and will be in all Marine-books from here on out. Easy, really.

If the "next" Marine Codex in the pipeline would not have been Grey Knights, but instead Black Templars, or Iron Hands, or Rainbow Warriors, the Stormraven entry in the BA Codex would have previewed them instead of Grey Knights. Simple. The "uniqueness" of the Stormraven is a fluke of the Codex-publication schedule and not a feature tied in any shape or form to the background of 40K (as it is with Sanguinary Guard, fast Rhinos, etc..).

Consequently, I see no issue with an excited Marine Player Jumping the queue and wanting to play a Stormraven with his Salamaders or whatever as long as they are new, hot and sexy instead of 3 years from now when they drop them in the generic Marine Dex and 90% of current hobbyists have likely moved on again to a new past-time alltogether.

DeeKay
01-02-2011, 10:53
Even if you don't want to play against a non-BA Stormbrick you may have to tolerate doing so in the near future. I've heard that GW will allow for all SM armies to use it via White Dwarf.

If it's an asthetic issue then I wouldn't even allow BA to use Stormbricks but ruleswise, why not? There not that hard.

With regards,
Dan.

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 10:56
Well, I intend to make a Carcharodon one. I love the Tyberos model, but don't want to collect an entire army. So I have decided to get a SR, a FW ironclad dread, 5 LC termies and Tyberos to drop in at apocalypse level. :)

Doppleskanger
01-02-2011, 11:05
The decision to restrict the use of it in WD is an interesting one, I would have rushed out and bought 2 for my DA but I may hold off to see what happens. But that's simply a financial thing, as I'm fairly broke and I don't want to shell out big bags of cash on non-legal models.
At my club I would expect to be allowed to field them, and would be happy for them to be fielded against me. I would also quite happily allow Chaos Marines access to them, I don't see any reason not to. I would probably insist that rules from the receiving codex, ie Salamander melta tweak, are not transferred onto the Stormraven.

Mirbeau
01-02-2011, 11:07
Not in a pick-up game/tournament game. Playing a friend, sure.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 11:15
Either you use the rules in C:UM, in C:SW or in C:BA.
You don't dip and take whatever you like in either just because 'your' codex doesn't have something you would like.

Why not? The published codexes clearly don't adequately model every possible force described in the background - where are Chaos or Genestealer Cults? For that matter, I can't even field the Ultramarines' 8th company using Codex: Space Marines. If someone's got a cool army, then I don't see why I should prevent them from playing it.

I also don't understand the "well, OK, as long as I can take something unusual too" argument. It's not about seeking an advantage that requires a balancing advantage to the other side.

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 11:24
I don't see a problem with using a stormraven in any of the space marine armies, if every stormraven out there is painted red in the exact same sceme I think it would be a waste of an awesome models. I want to see lots of blue, green, gray, etc stormravens.

I know for a fact that my local hobby store has a house rule that it will be able to used in any space marine army and even better is the fact that its rules are in the white dwarf preventing ultramarine players having to buy a blood angel codex to use it.

In terms of balance I dont see how it really effects it, blood angels are so simular to ultramarines if not actually better due to there sanguinary priests and special rules that it would probably be easier playing against a stormraven in a ultramarine army then a blood angel army!

faithinanarchy
01-02-2011, 11:26
I don't see the problem, just one more space marine vehicle to be crushed under the might of Imperial guard tanks. Hydras would drop it in seconds as they do any flyer. And yeah, what one marine chapter has every marine chapter will have next codex release.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 11:26
Vulkan's Melta tweak won't work on the Stormraven as it's Melta weapon is already Twin Linked. I know what you mean though, I wouldn't be happy to have Sergeant Chronos in it.

TheWarmaster
01-02-2011, 11:30
I'd allow it even if it was just to see the model.

jedideinos
01-02-2011, 11:36
I'd be fine with an opponent fielding one, in the same way that I'm ok with FW models. I'd drop the Skies of Blood rule because that seems uniquely BA. Other than that, no problems. In fact, I'm buying to go with my Raven Guard because it seems to fit with their fluff of precisely targetted attacks.
I know Feb's WD still says BA and GK only, but the article did say "it fills a gap in the SM range." To me, that suggests that ultimately it will be available to more than BA and GK.

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 11:38
Vulkan's Melta tweak won't work on the Stormraven as it's Melta weapon is already Twin Linked. I know what you mean though, I wouldn't be happy to have Sergeant Chronos in it.

Sergeant Chronos can only be placed in models that have the "tank" rule and a stormraven is a skimmer, it would be like putting him in a land speeder.

I get what you mean but any of the nasty combos you could do with Ultramarines you could just as easy do with blood angels.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 11:49
Fair enough, I thought it was just any Heavy Support Vehicle choice. I can't think of many other things which would affect it in the SM codex.

neko
01-02-2011, 11:49
I'd drop the Skies of Blood rule because that seems uniquely BA.
It's so uniquely BA that even the IG have it on their Valkyries ;)
Seriously though, the difference between Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion is that jump packers don't risk killing themselves by jumping out of an aircraft in mid-air, and this very much feels like a general thing rather than a Blood Angel specific thing. In fact, I stongly suspect that the reason this is missing from the Valkyrie has more to do with IG having no jump packers. The only other thing mentioned is that jump packers can use their Descent of Angels rule, which other chapters wouldn't be able to use because they don't have it.

Whitehorn
01-02-2011, 11:49
I'd be a hypocrite to say no as I already have a Mechanicum Storm Raven ^^

Venkh
01-02-2011, 11:50
Once its in WD then no problem.

Untill then Ill be asking my opponent if I can modify my FOC for the game and try out some interesting combo's for myself.

I have no problem with going 'off piste' as long as it cuts both ways.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 11:50
It would simply be "Skies of Smurfs".

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 11:52
It would simply be "Skies of Smurfs".

I think all UM flyers should be covered by a new special rule called: Whooshing machines live longer with Calgar...

I'm so, so sorry... :cries:

Erwos
01-02-2011, 11:53
I'd play against it if I can take Chaos Daemons units in my CSM army.

tit for tat. you want to take a unit from another codex, you should be prepared to let me do the same
This is my feeling, too. Don't act too hurt or surprised when my Iron Warriors happen to loot some drop pods for their dreads, not to mention some "real" daemons. And you sure as hell don't get to pull out a Stormraven in your non-BA/GK army without giving me VERY advance notification first so I can pull the same stunt.

It's not that I'm mortally opposed to the idea, but you're really giving yourself an excellent unit at the other player's expense, and, technically speaking, cheating. This is as much "opponent's permission" as FW units, if not more so.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 11:58
I think all UM flyers should be covered by a new special rule called: Whooshing machines live longer with Calgar...

I'm so, so sorry... :cries:

The funniest thing I've read in ages :D. Sigged!

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 11:59
I'd play against it if I can take Chaos Daemons units in my CSM army.

tit for tat. you want to take a unit from another codex, you should be prepared to let me do the same

I myself have a 6000 pt Chaos Space Marine/daemon army but think that would probably be a bit excessive to demand to be able to use real daemons. I think it fits better fluff wise for them not to be real daemons as real daemons are only likely to be summoned during a epic battle otherwise the chaos gods wouldn't care so I think this combo is better suited to apocalypse.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 12:04
It's not that I'm mortally opposed to the idea, but you're really giving yourself an excellent unit at the other player's expense, and, technically speaking, cheating. This is as much "opponent's permission" as FW units, if not more so.


I'm not getting at you personally, but this attitude bugs me, so I'm going to rail against it at every opportunity. :)

If someone asks you if they can try something not normally allowed in the rules and you agree, it IS NOT CHEATING! Not even "technically". The sooner people get away from this creeping paranoia that any attempt to do things differently to the rulebooks is to gain an unfair advantage, the better.

Before I get the usual comeback, yes, some people are like that. Hopefully my experience isn't unusual, however, and they're in a tiny minority.

Erwos
01-02-2011, 12:11
I'm not getting at you personally, but this attitude bugs me, so I'm going to rail against it at every opportunity. :)

If someone asks you if they can try something not normally allowed in the rules and you agree, it IS NOT CHEATING! Not even "technically". The sooner people get away from this creeping paranoia that any attempt to do things differently to the rulebooks is to gain an unfair advantage, the better.
Sure it is. You're breaking the rules of the game for your own benefit (be that gameplay or aesthetic). Cheating is not necessarily a pejorative term ("well, we cheated a little and let him field a Stormraven"). But don't mistake it for thinking it's not cheating if we both agree to it. If you say "let's reroll your last shooting phase", that's cheating, doesn't matter if I agreed to it or not.

The real question is, what is it when you show up with your "Stormravens included!" C:SM list with no warning, and then demand I play against it? Are you suddenly going to decide I'm an ass because I'm trying to play by the official rules and you're trying to do whatever you want? Will you think less of me when I say no?

And, frankly, the Stormraven is a pretty sweet unit. No one's being fooled when your Night Lords are running BAs because they "represent the army better", or when you just happen to think an extremely good unit "belongs in the codex". You're power-gaming, and you don't even have the stones to admit to it. Want to run Stormravens not as BAs? Run them in an Apoc game. Want to run Stormravens in a normal game? Time to use the BA codex.

This is actually worse than FW, because at least with FW, you're not inventing the rules as you go. Here, you're just slamming a new unit in a codex on no one's say-so but your own.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 12:14
It's not cheating any more than bringing on 11 subs in a friendly football match is. You've agreed the rules beforehand, and are sticking to them. The rules are more than what's written in the rulebook. If I ask "can I use this Stormraven?" and you say "yes", then now we have a new house rule (at least, for this game).

I'm not saying that you should let someone do it just because they demand it. That's not what I wrote at all.

Bunnahabhain
01-02-2011, 12:17
There is a significant difference between cheating- breaking the rules, generally to gain some advantage, and both players agreeing to alter or ignore the rules, often whent he rules are just plain silly- terminators without terminator armour being the best example...

Of course, anything like this is much better agreed in advance.

But calling any change to the rules cheating is overegging things a bit.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 12:17
I think you misunderstand the accepted definition of cheating. You may be disobeying the game rules, but if you and your opponent both agree to the modification, I don't see how anyone is cheating, as that is normally applied to an illegal action for the gain of the person applying the action and to the detriment of their opponent.

We also have to remember that this is just a game, as long as everyone is having it's cool. If it would stop another person from having fun I would stop using any unit, allowed or not.

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 12:18
Sure it is. You're breaking the rules of the game for your own benefit (be that gameplay or aesthetic). Cheating is not necessarily a pejorative term ("well, we cheated a little and let him field a Stormraven"). But don't mistake it for thinking it's not cheating. If I say "let's reroll your last shooting phase", that's cheating, doesn't matter if I agreed to it or not.

The real question is, what is it when you show up with your "Stormravens included!" C:SM list with no warning, and then demand I play against it? Are you suddenly going to decide I'm an ass because I'm trying to play by the official rules and you're trying to do whatever you want? Will you think less of me when I say no?

And, frankly, the Stormraven is a pretty sweet unit. No one's being fooled when your Night Lords are running BAs because they "represent the army better", or when you just happen to think an extremely good unit "belongs in the codex". You're power-gaming, and you don't even have the stones to admit to it. Want to run Stormravens not as BAs? Run them in an Apoc game.


Cheating is necessarly deceptive, which a commonly agreed by change of rules is not. Also, I think the 40K rulebook very explicitly as a "golden rule" rule that makes it "legal" to change rules in agreement with your opponent even by the most legalistic of interpretations.

Hell, I doubt you could even argue against this in a tournament. If you and your opponent "change the rule" in agreement with the "golden rule" of the 40K book, no tourny would strictly speaking be able to disqualify you for it, as it is clearly "in the rules" that you are allowed to "change rules" in 40K in mutual agreement.

Erwos
01-02-2011, 12:18
I'm not saying that you should let someone do it just because they demand it. That's not what I wrote at all.
Great - because no one's fielding Stormravens against me sans advance warning if they're not BAs (until WD hands them to everyone, anyways). The sense of entitlement that loyalist SM players have is pretty astonishing to me, and I whine about the Chaos codex on a weekly basis!

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 12:22
Great - because no one's fielding Stormravens against me sans advance warning if they're not BAs (until WD hands them to everyone, anyways). The sense of entitlement that loyalist SM players have is pretty astonishing to me, and I whine about the Chaos codex on a weekly basis!

Erwos, did a group of Stormravens raid your village and kill your parents when you were a youngling?

Azulthar
01-02-2011, 12:23
I would only allow it if there's a Forgeworld or White Dwarf article for it.

There's no fluff reason for it, and I see no other reason why you would be allowed to just include useful options from other codeci to your own.


In other words: if loyalists are taking Stormravens, than my Chaos Terminators are taking Stormshields :p

Erwos
01-02-2011, 12:23
Erwos, did a group of Stormravens raid your village and kill your parents when you were a youngling?
No, worse; they dropped off a REALLY BAD Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Killed everyone in the whole damn county.

It fills me with incomprehensible rage to see loyalist SM players grabbing Stormravens to amp up their codexes while so many of us are stuck with badly-aging 3E/4E codexes.

Hypaspist
01-02-2011, 12:35
It fills me with incomprehensible rage to see loyalist SM players grabbing Stormravens to amp up their codexes while so many of us are stuck with badly-aging 3E/4E codexes.

Has this thread changed from


"Would you allow someone to..."

to

"Space Marine Players the world over are abusing this new toy!!! I demand recompense!"

or did I miss something?


Also Erwos... incomprehensible rage... really?

TheLionReturns
01-02-2011, 12:36
I wouldn't mind facing it. I am fairly happy with picking forces from various codexes in friendly games, although if it seems a bit out of place fluff wise I appreciate an effort to justify it in fluff terms. Obviously if it horribly unbalances things then I expect my opponent not to use it or alter the list to restore a semblance of balance.

For tournaments/tournament preparation I would obviously favour being stricter with the rules.

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 12:36
No, worse; they dropped off a REALLY BAD Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Killed everyone in the whole damn county.

It fills me with incomprehensible rage to see loyalist SM players grabbing Stormravens to amp up their codexes while so many of us are stuck with badly-aging 3E/4E codexes.

Wow, if people you've never met buying toys that aren't strictly intended for use with their particular line of toys is the most rage-inducing thing going on in your life right now, I'd say you have it pretty sweet. :p


Also Erwos... incomprehensible rage... really?

It appears you can't comprehend his rage. Ergo, he was telling the truth. :D

vahouth
01-02-2011, 12:39
I'd be a hypocrite to say no as I already have a Mechanicum Storm Raven ^^

TBH Mechanicum should have it first of all...
Finders keepers, right?;)

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 12:39
For tournaments/tournament preparation I would obviously favour being stricter with the rules.

Well, rulebook page 2 states clearly: "The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."

So RAW, I am allowed to change/ignore any rule (such as Codex/FoC-limits), even in a strict-as-can-be-tourney, as long as my opponent agrees or the tourney-organizers did not explicitly exclude this particular rule beforehand.

Erwos
01-02-2011, 12:44
Wow, if people you've never met buying toys that aren't strictly intended for use with their particular line of toys is the most rage-inducing thing going on in your life right now, I'd say you have it pretty sweet.
I do have it pretty sweet, truth be told. But I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?", the answer would be VASTLY different. And that bothers me. (The "incomprehensible rage" thing was hyperbole, the guys I play with obey the rules as if they were actual US law.)

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 12:48
Chaos taking Drop Pods? Go for it.

Lord Damocles
01-02-2011, 12:49
I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?
If it helps, my answer would still be the same...:shifty:

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 12:52
Not that that's any different to anything else. If you turn up with any army and demand I play against it, you can get lost. :)

In fact, go for it. You want Chaos drop pods? Go for it. Razorbacks? why not. Give 'em Sonic weapons if you want. Terminators with the appropriate Legion special rules? Can't see why not. In fact, A Thousand Sons specifies the assault cannon was being introduced during the last days of the Great Crusade, so use those instead of Reapers if you want.

TheLionReturns
01-02-2011, 13:10
Well, rulebook page 2 states clearly: "The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."

So RAW, I am allowed to change/ignore any rule (such as Codex/FoC-limits), even in a strict-as-can-be-tourney, as long as my opponent agrees or the tourney-organizers did not explicitly exclude this particular rule beforehand.

I am not a tournament player but I can't imagine any tournament organizers allowing players to alter the rules as suggested by page 2. Even if they did I doubt many opponents would agree to the changes in a competitive environment.

I do think sometimes page 2 is not payed as much attention as it should. It is probably just the nature of forums and blogs but I often get the impression that there is a belief that the only way to get fairness and balance is if it is handed down from above, so to speak, by the game designers. Putting aside the ridiculous notion that the rules are balanced, it is perfectly possible for players to find their own balance through considerate list design, trial and error, and honest discussion. Allowing flexibility in the rules does add variety to the hobby, and can be balanced provided both players have the right attitude and are prepared to put the work in.

On the note about chaos drop pods, I would be happy to allow it. Chaos have drop pods in the background, just not the army list. However, if it turned out that they overpowered the army (something I doubt) then a points adjustment may be in order.

WildWeasel
01-02-2011, 13:13
I do have it pretty sweet, truth be told. But I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?", the answer would be VASTLY different. And that bothers me. (The "incomprehensible rage" thing was hyperbole, the guys I play with obey the rules as if they were actual US law.)

CSMs have drop pods, fluff wise, so make them look cool and fire those traitors at the ground!

And to the OP, yes I would. It's fluff is not chapter exclusive, it's a sweet model, it scratches that Thunderhawk gunship deployment itch outside of Apoc and $600+ models, and fully loaded, it's a LOT of egg-points in an AV12 basket.

Not to mention I have three pre-ordered, and a load of FW grubbins, to build Force Air Wolf :D

Bunnahabhain
01-02-2011, 13:41
I do have it pretty sweet, truth be told. But I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?", the answer would be VASTLY different. And that bothers me. (The "incomprehensible rage" thing was hyperbole, the guys I play with obey the rules as if they were actual US law.)

Unless they were clearly recent converts ( and I don't mean the vulkan became wolves became angels, whilst staying grey plastic type...), then yes, I would mind.

Chaos have a clear reason not to use drop pods, they have dreadclaws.

So if someone asked, for a legion type force, I'd ask if they wouldn't mind using the dreadclaw rules instead, as they're much more fitting.
In fact, I'd point out I don't mind FW stuff at all, use any of the normal-ish i.e. not super-heavy or fliers) and they don't need to ask about using it with me, but don't spam the cheesy stuff.

If you do want to try plague marines, with epidemius, and any other nasty combination you care to think of, feel free, but let me know we're going for that sort of game, so I can Fight fire with fire, (or in fact, fight Plague with promethiem, plasma and thermite fire, and burn the infection out!) and so make the game more balanced, so better fun all round.


If we're agreeing to change rules, a bit of give and take on both sides is a good idea.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
01-02-2011, 13:54
I must say with some hesitation that I would allow it from time to time. I say hesitantly because I recently started a Blood Angel army because I liked the leaked pics so much. I have my own loyalist chapter already. I could have planned to jam it into the army already have but I won't do that. It irks me that some people are making such a deal about it. I kinda think that if people want to have them then collect BA or Grey Knights.

I would allow my SM and SW buddies to use one. One not three. I wouldn't like to see it become a default entry in their weekly lists either. In saying that I'll be having one in my Iron Warrior list. What's good for the goose.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 13:55
Actually, I could see a Chaos force using Dreadclaws and Drop Pods.

Apart from using Drop Pods to represent more recent renegades (Huron Blackheart and co probably don't use Dreadclaws), I could see a Chaos force using Dreadclaws for the elites - Veterans, Terminators, etc - and making the plebs ride in Drop Pods.

Mannimarco
01-02-2011, 14:20
Nope Huron would use dreadclaws, its rather fortunate he had vast stockpiles of the obsolete, no longer in production reaper autocannons and twin linked bolters and power weapons for his terminators to fall back on seeing as how all current loyalist tech disintegrates the second you turn to Chaos.

IMO this is actually requires more of an "opponents consent" ruling than FW: FW models exist for a particular army and are used to plug gaps and bulk out the army and are not the same as codex crossovers. Theres a difference between "This is a plague hulk for a CSM army, can I use it in my CSM army?" and "this is a stormraven for the Blood Angels, can I use it with my salamanders?" or even "this is Epidemius, a Nurgle daemon, can I use him in my Nurgle aligned CSM army?"

Of course Id play against a stormraven in whatever army your unpainted grey marines are pretending to be this week, just let me know that you are mixing books (codexes/codices/whatever) so I can dig out my old daemon army, my CSM army is now lead by Epidemius, my summoned greater daemon is now a GUO and my lesser daemons are now plaguebearers.

You can reason that its only fair a marine is a marine is a marine so its fitting that all marines get all options (so then why all these marine dexes? thats another topic though) so I could reason that its only right a pure Nurgle army gets access to Nurgle daemons (and only Nurgle daemons, its fitting that a pure DG type army would be looked after by papa Nurgle).

Carnage
01-02-2011, 15:13
IMO there's a few schools of thought on this;

1. Black and white print. No rules for SR outside of GK and BA, so no SR for vanilla marines/DA/Wolves/BT/whomever else wants it.

This is a competitive gamers opinion. You play the rules by the rules and every game is a test of your abilities and army for upcoming tournaments. No point wasting your time playing against something that will never happen in a tournament.

2. Sure, SR for everyone! Anything else goes too. Thunderwolves in Ultramarines, chaos with real demons, imperial guard monoliths, Tyranid Hammerheads...go nuts. The rules exist so we can have fun, not be constrained.

This is a friendly gamer's opinion. Play for fun and don't care who wins. Note: leave this opinion at home, as trying to play like this in a pick up game or tournament will get you laughed at.

3. Sure for Vanilla/BT/Wolves/DA! They are going to get it some day anyways, so why not? No other changes for anyone else though, that's CHEATING.

Garbage in my opinion. You play by the rules or you open the flood gates to tyanid hammerheads. You can't only allow some stuff because it's easier to rationalize by the fluff. If anyone tries to field a space wolf storm raven, he can play against my ultramarine thunderwolves...and GOD HELP HIM if he kicks up a fuss about it.

As an Ultramarine player who wants a SR, and no rules to allow it, I will not be buying the model until it is 100% legal for tournament use. Why buy something I can't use when I want to?

AlphariusOmegon20
01-02-2011, 15:18
As an Ultramarine player who wants a SR, and no rules to allow it, I will not be buying the model until it is 100% legal for tournament use. Why buy something I can't use when I want to?

Ummm, because it makes a great conversion opportunity, no matter what army you play?

I play Chaos and I'm planning on buying one to pervert to the Ruinous Powers' service.

But then, I see it as an opportunity to make a cool conversion for my Alpha Legion. Yes, I can still use it (in Apoc), but that is not the main reason I want one. It's to test my conversion skills.

Deafwing
01-02-2011, 15:23
I would totally allow it...if I'm allowed a hydra flak tank or two with their full AA rules.

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 15:47
I think some people are missing the fun part intended in putting a stormraven in a vanilla space marine army. 95% of the people out there who want to put a stormraven in there army isn't because it will unbalance the game like a hammerhead in a tyranid army.

They want to do it because its an awesome looking model, which is an affordable way of fielding a smaller version of a thunderhawk and gives an extra dynamic to the game.

Its not a ridiculous inclusion like a monolith in a guardsmen army and not just fluff wise. Gaming wise it isn't going to be a game deciding model, it costs 200 pts minimum and is loaded with no doubt another 300 pts, which can all be stopped by one lascannon.

I totally agree with this model not being used in tournaments in armies other then BA and GK and hope that nobody buys it thinking they will be able to but in a friendly game I think it definitely belongs :D

Nezalhualixtlan
01-02-2011, 15:49
What's your take on it?

In Apocalypse? Yes, there's no problem at all there.

In Non-apocalypse? No, not until GW releases some sort of official ruling that it's allowed. However, as an addendum to that, I don't particularly care if an opponent runs his Ultramarines or Space Wolf, or whatever models with a Blood Angel list, so long as the list is legal to the Blood Angel codex if they want to try something different for a change.

I honestly don't care if I had an opponent running Imperial Fists in yellow armor with a Space Wolf Codex legal list, or a Dark Angels or Black Templar Codex legal list, or whatever. I wouldn't care if they were running Necron models with a Tau Codex legal list.

Just make sure the models are about the right size for TLoS, that the list is legal to one single codex so you aren't cherry picking the best stuff out of different ones for balances sake, and let me know what's what before and during the game.

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 15:53
I honestly don't care if I had an opponent running Imperial Fists in yellow armor with a Space Wolf Codex legal list, or a Dark Angels or Black Templar Codex legal list, or whatever. I wouldn't care if they were running Necron models with a Tau Codex legal list.

I'd have more of a problem with this then I would have of someone fielding a hammerhead in a tyranid army. Just because I would lose the storyline of the game trying to figure out why necrons are shooting with pulse rifles.

If you going to use a this model counts as something else in my opinion that is much less in the spirit of the game then allowing an accurate model to join in another army list. Otherwise you might as well be playing your games with empty bases and save yourself the money in the first place...

Erwos
01-02-2011, 16:00
I think some people are missing the fun part intended in putting a stormraven in a vanilla space marine army. 95% of the people out there who want to put a stormraven in there army isn't because it will unbalance the game like a hammerhead in a tyranid army.
Yes, and it's just a coincidence that no one ever tries to do this kind of stunt with bad units like Thunderfire cannons. If you honestly believe that 95% of the people out there don't care about the small fact that Stormravens are an excellent unit gameplay-wise, I have a bridge to sell you.

If you want to play an Apoc game where this kind of thing is appropriate, that's fine. If you want to schedule a game with a good buddy and bring one (and tell them first), it's fine, albeit still rules-breaking. Don't try this stunt at tournaments or pick-up games or friendly games without giving advance notice and asking permission.

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 16:13
If you want to play an Apoc game where this kind of thing is appropriate, that's fine. If you want to schedule a game with a good buddy and bring one (and tell them first), it's fine, albeit still rules-breaking. Don't try this stunt at tournaments or pick-up games or friendly games without giving advance notice and asking permission.

I totally agree with you, I would be pissed off if someone did it without asking first or pulled it out as a surprise at the last moment.

I was more thinking along the lines of adding it as a house rule at my gaming club and suggesting it be used that way. That way its not a surprise that pisses people off but something that people can anticipate and plan against.

I know this is what they are doing at my local hobby store and I agree with it being used but not as a out of the hat surprise.

Gingerwerewolf
01-02-2011, 16:25
I would totally allow it...if I'm allowed a hydra flak tank or two with their full AA rules.

So you'd insist that the Stormraven is given the Flyer Rule from the Apocalypse book like the Apocalypse datasheets in WD374? ;)

ColShaw
01-02-2011, 16:29
In a friendly game, I'd certainly play against it. In a tournament, it wouldn't be allowed, so there wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

I wouldn't let somebody proxy it, though. I've got no problem with having friendly house-rule model inclusion, but you gotta have the model to do it. Assembled, too.

Nezalhualixtlan
01-02-2011, 16:32
I'd have more of a problem with this then I would have of someone fielding a hammerhead in a tyranid army. Just because I would lose the storyline of the game trying to figure out why necrons are shooting with pulse rifles.

If you going to use a this model counts as something else in my opinion that is much less in the spirit of the game then allowing an accurate model to join in another army list. Otherwise you might as well be playing your games with empty bases and save yourself the money in the first place...

If it wasn't a pick up game and I was playing a good buddy of mine that wanted to try it out once, then I'd also be fine with the Storm Raven in non-BA Marine list, if it was not a normal thing they wanted to do constantly. I'm not quite as inflexible as my first post sounded now that I'm thinking about it. But I wouldn't want them doing it all the time.

On the rest of this, people play the game for different reasons. My favorite thing about the hobby is the game, the strategy & tactics. Because of that, I want a legal game. The fluff is fun, and the hobby aspect to it is cool. It's always nicer to play with and against an army that is fully modeled and painted with fully detailed scenery, but it isn't necessary to enjoy a competitive game, which is the primary reason I play. I don't care whether an army list is "fluffy" or not as long as it's Codex legal though.

Now, I'm also someone that usually takes high-res pictures of the game and takes a good bit of time to type up detailed battle reports complete with stories to go with them (but I let the game figure out what happens and tell the story after, I don't try to make the game fit a preconceived story), because I do actually enjoy the fluff aspect of the game. But what's it matter to my pictures / story for the battle report whether my units were gibbed by a Necron model wielding a Gauss Rifle that used rules for Pulse Carbine? In the end the model counts change either way, and I can describe the action happening as a Gauss blast that strips away my models on a molecular level.

I just figure, at least in non-tournament settings I'm cool with proxies. What does it matter if the whole army is proxied, especially if its an opponent that's trying to figure out whether or not they want to start purchasing a new army that I might get to play in the future for something different?

Gwyidion
01-02-2011, 17:31
there is no scale of codex-mashing, it is a binary state. You are either mashing codexes together, or you aren't, and once you are, all you need is the barest fluff justification, and its legit.

So, you can have a storm raven. My eldar are the greatest tricksters in the universe. I can trick any unit from any codex into playing for me. Hope that isn't a problem - it's fluff justified.

It is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened. You can use the rules from any one (1) codex you wish, and thats all you get.

WildWeasel
01-02-2011, 17:53
there is no scale of codex-mashing, it is a binary state. You are either mashing codexes together, or you aren't, and once you are, all you need is the barest fluff justification, and its legit.

So, you can have a storm raven. My eldar are the greatest tricksters in the universe. I can trick any unit from any codex into playing for me. Hope that isn't a problem - it's fluff justified.

It is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened. You can use the rules from any one (1) codex you wish, and thats all you get.

Yes sir, thank you sir. I'm sorry we have been playing wrong sir. We were wrong in thinking there was some difference in kind between non-BA/GK SRs or Chaos drop pods and IG Monoliths or Chaos Daemon Hydras, sir.

Further, sir, we were unaware that this One True Way of playing trumps what two people negotiate together in good faith for a friendly game.

We are sorry, sir.

Simo429
01-02-2011, 18:11
Depends, if its a lad from my gaming group who is a vanilla/ space wolf player who just wants to try it out one week thats fine if its every week thats different.

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 18:24
I think some people are missing the fun part intended in putting a stormraven in a vanilla space marine army. 95% of the people out there who want to put a stormraven in there army isn't because it will unbalance the game like a hammerhead in a tyranid army.

They want to do it because its an awesome looking model, which is an affordable way of fielding a smaller version of a thunderhawk and gives an extra dynamic to the game.

Its not a ridiculous inclusion like a monolith in a guardsmen army and not just fluff wise. Gaming wise it isn't going to be a game deciding model, it costs 200 pts minimum and is loaded with no doubt another 300 pts, which can all be stopped by one lascannon.

I totally agree with this model not being used in tournaments in armies other then BA and GK and hope that nobody buys it thinking they will be able to but in a friendly game I think it definitely belongs :DHrm, I certainly wouldn't say 95% just want to use it because its a cool model. The Stormraven is one of the most divisive models on looks in recent years with quite a lot of hate. Some people love it, but a *lot* of people, much more than I can think of for any other recent kit, have expressed dislike for it.

Additionally, I'm sure quite a lot more than 5% of players wanting to use this thing in a C:SM army are thinking about the possibilities of a Vulkan+TH/SS unit with an Ironclad stuck to it and other such sillyness.

Lets not kid ourselves here.

Carnage
01-02-2011, 18:33
Hrm, I certainly wouldn't say 95% just want to use it because its a cool model. The Stormraven is one of the most divisive models on looks in recent years with quite a lot of hate. Some people love it, but a *lot* of people, much more than I can think of for any other recent kit, have expressed dislike for it.

Additionally, I'm sure quite a lot more than 5% of players wanting to use this thing in a C:SM army are thinking about the possibilities of a Vulkan+TH/SS unit with an Ironclad stuck to it and other such sillyness.

Lets not kid ourselves here.

That was my plan for my ultramarines :p

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-02-2011, 18:46
I do have it pretty sweet, truth be told. But I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?", the answer would be VASTLY different. And that bothers me. (The "incomprehensible rage" thing was hyperbole, the guys I play with obey the rules as if they were actual US law.)

Rock and roll, go for it. Ditto for Chaos termies with storm shields, and updated daemons. Whatever makes the game more fun for you.


I wouldn't let somebody proxy it, though. I've got no problem with having friendly house-rule model inclusion, but you gotta have the model to do it. Assembled, too.

So I gotta drop $66 USD per model before I'm even sure I really want it? Surely that's being a little harsh?

ColShaw
01-02-2011, 18:58
So I gotta drop $66 USD per model before I'm even sure I really want it? Surely that's being a little harsh?

If you're going to insist on using it in a non-Blood Angels/GK army? Absolutely you should have the model, at the least. Otherwise I'm just going to think you're trying to shoehorn something inappropriate into your list just to get a small advantage, and in a friendly game, that's just lame. Please look at the context of my prior statement.

That said, I'm against proxy models anyway. I'm willing to do slow building of my own armies, and use possibly non-optimized builds based on the models I have together and painted. I won't insist my opponents' armies are fully painted; sadly, those days seem to be over. But I do think they should actually show up with the proper pieces, or conversions thereof.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 19:02
So you are saying you wouldn't be happy for people to try out new builds and units without going out and buying the models, going to the trouble of assembling them etc.? As already said, that seems a bit harsh.

Obviously if you don't mind people just testing something out once but not on a continuous basis, then fine.

Emeraldw
01-02-2011, 19:06
I would allow it. It isn't that powerful. Hell, I think it only really works with Blood Angels anyway. The rest of the army would be left behind if they tried to use it really aggressively.

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 19:10
I would allow it. It isn't that powerful. Hell, I think it only really works with Blood Angels anyway. The rest of the army would be left behind if they tried to use it really aggressively.

That'd be fine in many cases (though really it wouldn't be *that* much farther ahead of the rest of the army). Toss a unit of TH/SS termi's in there with an Ironclad, they hop off and assault almost anywhere on the board turn 2 and break open a bunch of tanks, the rest of your line sits back and shoots up whatever was in the tanks.


That was my plan for my ultramarines :p

I knew I wouldn't be the only one to reach that conclusion as well :p

bossfearless
01-02-2011, 19:14
On principle? I might, depending on the player. In practice, however...never gonna happen. Because the guy who's trying to field units from other codex probably doesn't know his own dex very well to begin with, and in all likelihood is just trying to be the biggest git he can be. While we're at it, why not use units that are in the same dex, from previous editions? Throw out some BS4 Scouts with sniper weapons that always hit on a 2+, or just go ahead and use the "custom SM chapter" ruleset from 4th edition. And what's limiting you to stealing from one dex, anyway? Why not field some Long Fangs, under the assumption that "that's what devastators *should* be" or some Deathwing terminators? SM armies do not need the stormraven to be "balanced and competitive". They were just fine before it ever came out, and all someone achieves by fielding one outside of its codex is to field a broken army that doesn't even do the opponent the respect of following the basic rules of the game.

To give a parallel to my argument, I pose the question: What do you think of the players who refuse to acknowledge that you can no longer take allied Inquisition models, and so continue to field meltgun stormtroopers with their Vulkan army, or dual-mystic Inquisitors with their Guard? They are not fun to play against, because you know they're being cheating dicks.

While I don't doubt that the SR would be "fluffy" for rapid strike armies like Raven Guard or White Scars, you can just create those armies within the BA codex using a counts-as force.

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 19:16
To give a parallel to my argument, I pose the question: What do you think of the players who refuse to acknowledge that you can no longer take allied Inquisition models, and so continue to field meltgun stormtroopers with their Vulkan army, or dual-mystic Inquisitors with their Guard? They are not fun to play against, because you know they're being cheating dicks.Um, did GW officially state this somewhere? IIRC they said if you have the books with the allies rules you can still use them.

Deamon-forge
01-02-2011, 19:24
if a friend wanted to use one or more then ok with me, as long as he use the rules for it. i dont mind as its a friendly game.

i be geting me a few for my Ultras. as i like the model i mite not ise them in games but i like the model.

ColShaw
01-02-2011, 19:30
So you are saying you wouldn't be happy for people to try out new builds and units without going out and buying the models, going to the trouble of assembling them etc.? As already said, that seems a bit harsh.

Obviously if you don't mind people just testing something out once but not on a continuous basis, then fine.

I'll generally let people try it out once. But yeah, you did pretty much re-state my position on this. It's a hobby game. I think, actually, one of the built-in controls it has to help prevent over-the-top powergaming is restricting it to the models people actually have.

the1stpip
01-02-2011, 19:37
No.

It's not in the fluff AFAIK. If you are gonna let other Marine use them, then why not Orks. They capture one and use it against Beakies.

Storm Ravens are one of the things that make BAs different.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 19:44
Storm Ravens are one of the things that make BAs different.

And GKs ;).

ColShaw, fair enough :). For me it would just depend on the person, if I knew they were just doing something for fun (Like how I like to use a Nid Hive Tyrant as a Daemon Prince because I love the model, I have it all painted up Tzeentchian) as a or because they simply don't have the funds then it's all cool, if they are proxying for an in game advantage then I would have a problem.

WildWeasel
01-02-2011, 19:47
No.

It's not in the fluff AFAIK. If you are gonna let other Marine use them, then why not Orks. They capture one and use it against Beakies.

Storm Ravens are one of the things that make BAs different.

The SR entry in the BA codex talks about how the Mechanicum held it up in testing before releasing it to the armies of Mankind. The designer notes article in the current WD talks about how it was developed to fill the role of a medium skimmer in the Space Marine range.

Besides, it's not like the BA don't have boatloads of other toys and flavor, from Sanguinary Guard to Furiosos to fast Rhinos and Razors to Baal Predators. Really, if I was going to codex slosh for advantage, the Stormraven is down the list, behind Sanguinary Priests, fast Rhinos, Sanguinary Priests, fast Vindicators, and Sanguinary Priests.

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 19:53
Lets also be honest, it's likely to remain BA specific for a while because GW needed to hamfist ways to make BA different enough to justify a different book in the first place. :p

Though I have no doubt that 40k 6E SM's will have it, and would not be surprised about them getting it before then.

DuskRaider
01-02-2011, 20:49
I'll gladly play against your Space Wolves riding in Storm Ravens as long as you don't mind that I field my Death Guard led by Epidemius.

WildWeasel
01-02-2011, 20:51
I'll gladly play against your Space Wolves riding in Storm Ravens as long as you don't mind that I field my Death Guard led by Epidemius.

Sounds solid to me :)

DuskRaider
01-02-2011, 20:52
Then it's on!

Mannimarco
01-02-2011, 21:05
Then let the games begin! This chaos space marine army is led by a winged Nurgle prince (or Mamon, hed be pretty good here) and Epidemius. Elites are plague ogryns from SoD or Adepticon rules pack 2010 and 2011, fast attack are blight drones, troops and plague marines and plaguebearers and heavy support are 3 princes from codex daemons. Its totally fluffy for a Nurgle army.

if your ok with that (and you should be, it makes sense that all this Nurgle stuff should be together) then Id be ok with a storm raven in a non BA army.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 21:10
Sounds cool. My Space Wolves are up for it!

vahouth
01-02-2011, 21:15
I think some people are missing the fun part intended in putting a stormraven in a vanilla space marine army.

You should keep in mind though that there are also people that have fun playing by the rules and not breaking them.
I know because I'm one of them.:angel:

Souleater
01-02-2011, 21:25
I confess that I would not want to play with somebody wanting to use an SR with another marine dex. Loyalist Marines get enough codexes and toys already.

I don't care if an MEQ player uses a different dex each week but given the range of choice they enjoy can't they simply stick to one at a time?

WildWeasel
01-02-2011, 21:26
Then let the games begin! This chaos space marine army is led by a winged Nurgle prince (or Mamon, hed be pretty good here) and Epidemius. Elites are plague ogryns from SoD or Adepticon rules pack 2010 and 2011, fast attack are blight drones, troops and plague marines and plaguebearers and heavy support are 3 princes from codex daemons. Its totally fluffy for a Nurgle army.

if your ok with that (and you should be, it makes sense that all this Nurgle stuff should be together) then Id be ok with a storm raven in a non BA army.

Just have the rules on hand, and sounds good from there.

spaghettyhoop
01-02-2011, 21:47
I dont see a problem with it. Although me and all my friends play for fun. Ive just recently started my first ever marine army, based on the vanilla codex, and the GW staff in my store were doing their best to talk me into buying an SR instead of a landraider as it was legal for vanilla marines to take one. Though they seem to say anything to sell the latest models. They even tried to sell one to my girlfriend today instead of a landraider she went in to pick me up, even after she said "nope, hes told me what to buy and im not veering from that".

Personally, i dont intend to field one, as I dont think it fits my badab war era army one little bit! But I wouldnt mind another marine player fielding one, the same way I let my dark angel playing friend field drop pods.

At the end of the day, its a GAME, if you and the other player agree and both have fun, their is no harm!

People need to not get so worked up over a few plastic figure on a toy battlefield!

PatchOnMyShoulder
01-02-2011, 21:49
No.

Their's a reason you pick from your Codex and don't get to cherry pick, game balance.

The only way I would vote "maybe" is if I got to then have a Blood Angel squad of Grey Hunters, or led by a BA Librarian with Avenger, or BA with all twin linked flamers and meltas on my side, or my Salamanders with Descent of Angels, Eldar w/ Dark Eldar wargear, Necrons with Flayed Ones as troops, etc.

I wouldn't hate someone who asked, but I'd have a hard time buying it could be for any reason other then seeking a unfair gameplay advantage. If it was just for fluff reasons they wanted it, they could play using the BA rules but paint their army whatever color they wanted.

Exception of course: 1-off games for giggles, or themed games/campaigns are different. I'm speaking here only for 'official' games. Things that aren't 'official', like if custom characters, deliberately/storyline unbalanced matches, and odd allies are being allowed, those would change and make this feel minor. Since the rules in those are already being modified I wouldn't have an issue there because those aren't fully W40K at that point anyway. In a normal game though, and especially any official game, play your codex.

The Marshel
01-02-2011, 21:56
there is plenty within the blood angles codex that i dont consider really justifies its "uniqueness" fluff wise. things like the baal predator are a good example. uniquely blood angles because they just cant be bothered sharing it with the other chapters out there.

fluff wise, the storm raven is just new to the marine armory. if they sell a decent number when its released i have no doubt between now and C:SM 6th ed other chapters will have it too.

I'd be keen to use it, but most likely only in arranged games. in terms of pick up games, i either wouldnt bother or have a spare list and minis on hand to come in if the opponent does not consent

Azzy
01-02-2011, 21:58
If asked nicely beforehand, I'd be fine with it. After playing against it, if I felt that it unbalanced the army, I probably wouldn't allow it again or ask for some kind of off-setting handicap. Fortunately, most of the people I play against on a regular basis are good sports and are more concerned with having fun than winning at all costs so I doubt that it'd ever be a point of conflict however it turns out.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-02-2011, 22:00
What I'm curious about is how the Stormraven will unbalance other space marine armies if it is fielded with them. It isn't a gamebreaking unit in and of itself, and I can't think of any combos which could be done with other codices which would be nastier than any available in the BA codex. It already has the Dreads which benefit most from it, and the different Infantry units are pretty comparable in my mind.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2011, 22:03
Don't try this stunt at tournaments or pick-up games or friendly games without giving advance notice and asking permission.

Who exactly are you talking to, here? The only person that's suggested such a thing is yourself. :)


I'm speaking here only for 'official' games. Things that aren't 'official', like if custom characters, deliberately/storyline unbalanced matches, and odd allies are being allowed, those would change and make this feel minor. Since the rules in those are already being modified I wouldn't have an issue there because those aren't fully W40K at that point anyway. In a normal game though, and especially any official game, play your codex.

What's an "official" game? GW don't run tournaments themselves, IIRC, so it would seem that there's no such thing.

Now, I can understand the arguments based on game balance, of including a unit in an army it wasn't intended to be in throwing up unusual results. However to me, these claims that those of us who don't look on the army lists and Codexes as the be-all and end-all of military organisation in the milky way of the future sound at best ridiculous and at worst faintly insulting. Hence the rather ... spirited rebuttals.

Apologies if that seems a little harsh. :)

Stormfather
01-02-2011, 22:12
Against a friend, or in a friendly game against a non-optimized army, I'd have no problem at all, especially if I could take a similar liberty with my force or use the opportunity to play some kind of special or narrative mission. My gaming group often plays nonstandard missions, combining elements of Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Apocalypse, and homebrew material.

However, in a more competitive atmosphere, or if freddy fatbeard was trying to reinforce his chimeltavets with JotWW Stormravenwolf bloodwolves, I wouldn't play.

Souleater
01-02-2011, 22:21
What I'm curious about is how the Stormraven will unbalance other space marine armies if it is fielded with them.

For me it isn't a balance issue. It's just that this seems another step up in the 'Marine Army of the Month' arms race. Now not only do chapters get to use their own toys they can pick from other chapter's, too.

cromanobtroir
01-02-2011, 22:24
why not it would be great fun to see more originality in armies and codex bashing they should bring back the rules that used to state you could field anything in all imperial codexes as one army for both spacemarine and chaos

big squig
01-02-2011, 22:33
Yes, simply because it's inevitable. The stormraven will pull a land raider crusader. By next edition the stormraven will be standard for all chapters.

PatchOnMyShoulder
01-02-2011, 22:37
What's an "official" game?


Offhand, it's one played using the official game rules as written by GW, which do cover what units you can pick (the ones from your codex, not ones that might one day maybe be in your codex).




GW don't run tournaments themselves, IIRC, so it would seem that there's no such thing.


Rogue Trader comes to mind as what would have been the standard, but even now that the biggest tourneys aren't the indirectly GW ones, they all (that I know of) still follow the rule above for what's official, and wouldn't let you take Stormravens in other SM armies.




Now, I can understand the arguments based on game balance, of including a unit in an army it wasn't intended to be in throwing up unusual results. However to me, these claims that those of us who don't look on the army lists and Codexes as the be-all and end-all of military organisation in the milky way of the future sound at best ridiculous and at worst faintly insulting. Hence the rather ... spirited rebuttals.




those of us who don't look on the army lists and Codexes as the be-all and end-all


Those of you that don't want to play by the rules of 40k as presented in the rules books. Which is fine, but you're not playing the universal 40k anymore, you're playing a house version.

What you're doing is fun. I do it all the time in themed games. However it's not 40k at that point as much as a house rule system based off 40k.

It's like playing sand soccer, or touch football. It's very fun, and is a game, but it's a modified version, and it isn't something that's the original.

That's why I don't see any harm in this if you're just playing for fun, in an unofficial 1-off setting (just a pick up game with a friend for example)

If you do this though, you are not playing by the core rules of Warhammer 40k anymore, and people (the majority of gamers) who come to play by those, have every right to refuse playing against this.




Apologies if that seems a little harsh. :)


It didn't. You have your view, and these are games. It doesn't really hurt me if people in some places want to play them different. As you yourself said, it's how you have fun. To use my example above, it's like if I enjoy normal soccer, and you enjoy sand soccer. Does it really hurt the world that we enjoy different things? No. Does it help us? Actually yes, since we're both buying the product, and keeping the companies that make the products in business so both of us can continue to mutually use them.

So in unofficial games I don't see anything wrong iwth it, but I think it's unfair, unneccesary, and unbalanced (if not game breakinly so) in more formal and officially competative games.

baphomael
01-02-2011, 22:37
I do wish the thing didn't exist at all, as the fluff is awful, and the model worse. EDIT. Can't marine players be happy with drop pods, thunder hawk ( resin/plastic) FW SM stuff that will stay resin, and Navy fliers?

Sure, if you can afford it ;) heh, for the price of the thunderhawk I could buy a used car and actually have a real dedicated transport :p

yabbadabba
01-02-2011, 22:38
What's an "official" game? GW don't run tournaments themselves, IIRC, so it would seem that there's no such thing. UK business runs Grand Tournaments at WhW mate :).

Of course I would, and for a variety of reasons. I have no hang ups or desperate needs to stick the rules fanatically - I can be flexible and adaptable. Whats important is that the goal is clearly outlined - playtesting a new army list, designing a scenario, testing balance etc. This way you can evaluate properly at the end of the game if the SR achieved its desired affect.

I would expect at competitive events such thing not to happen as keeping to the basics is important, but outside of this there are no hard and fast rules other than having fun.

PatchOnMyShoulder
01-02-2011, 22:45
Yes, simply because it's inevitable. The stormraven will pull a land raider crusader. By next edition the stormraven will be standard for all chapters.

When that happens it would be official and I'd have no trouble playing a formal game against it.

I'm curious why so many people are so sure it will be in the next version. Has a GW rep said something? Because wishful thinking isn't a good enough reason to codex mash IMO, and even trying to make leaps of logic won't work, because GW doesn't always hold itself to logic when it moves on to a new version of a Codex. They're a little bit Tzeentch at times. (I can use that as a verb and adjective as well as a noun right? Just seems like I should be able to ;) )

Edit: Also let me clarify something.

In the last few posts, I've been using the word 'Official', and maybe that's not the best word choice. 'Formal' is more along the lines of what I'm trying to express.

Andrew and others are correct, their isn't a 100% official system because the books even say play for fun, but their is a generally accepted formal system for those of us that think fun means everyone playing by a mutual set system that's as universal as possible. Most tournaments play very similiar, far more so then any differences they have, and I know of no tournament or campaign that's competative that doesn't require people to stick to the rules as best we can interpret them, and the ones of "formally you can only pick what's in your codex" seem pretty clear.

The formal game and the purely recreational with friends game can be different, and I am only speaking as a player of the former, since in the latter anything is fair game. However those of us who prefer things more formal have just as much right to have our view of the rules respected as the recreational player, and in that setting, I think this should be a no.

The Marshel
01-02-2011, 23:18
When that happens it would be official and I'd have no trouble playing a formal game against it.

I'm curious why so many people are so sure it will be in the next version. Has a GW rep said something? Because wishful thinking isn't a good enough reason to codex mash IMO, and even trying to make leaps of logic won't work, because GW doesn't always hold itself to logic when it moves on to a new version of a Codex. They're a little bit Tzeentch at times. (I can use that as a verb and adjective as well as a noun right? Just seems like I should be able to ;) )



a few of the head rumor mongers have stated that the general intention of gw is to make it universally available. until recently this was suppose to be in febs white dwarf but gw flipped and decided to hold it off from what i've heard.

the fluff is relatively clear in that its not really blood angles specific, they are just one of the first to have them. and then there is also that the grey knights are getting them, and its heavily implied they've had them a lot longer then blood angles.

Gw seems to be making a solid effort to push flyers into standard 40k via the medium skimmer route and are very keen on getting them all over the place. pretty much each army has obvious candidates to be plasticiesd and put on a flying stand (tau baracuda, nid harpy etc). one particular army that lacks such option in their background are marines. until recently it was just the thunderhawk which hardly fits in standard 40k. obviously if gw wants flyers more present in standard 40k they cant have the best selling army without a heavy skimmer to play around with.

from a sales point of view releasing the storm raven to at least the vanilla codex, if not all marine codexes is a highly logical move. with its release, it has new model syndrome to sell a tonn or two of the things. when grey knights come out, it'l get another round of intensive sales, and when gw decide to either release a special white dwarf or update the vanilla codex next ed, it'll again have another major sales peak. making it a universal marine vehicle gives the thing 3 separate releases to ride on in terms of sales.

hell, i'll go out on a limb and say they may even decide to put it in a beefed up csm codex just to flog more of the kits

fluff supports it, rumor mongers are hearing things that indicate it, recent trends in newer codexs support it, and the ever present need for profit supports it. it really is just a matter of when imo

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-02-2011, 23:20
I'm curious why so many people are so sure it will be in the next version. Has a GW rep said something? Because wishful thinking isn't a good enough reason to codex mash IMO, and even trying to make leaps of logic won't work, because GW doesn't always hold itself to logic when it moves on to a new version of a Codex. They're a little bit Tzeentch at times. (I can use that as a verb and adjective as well as a noun right? Just seems like I should be able to ;) )

There are statements in the WD designer's notes article about the Stormraven being designed to 'fill a hole in the Space Marine range', which is reasonably taken to mean that ultimately all SM forces are meant to have it.



The formal game and the purely recreational with friends game can be different, and I am only speaking as a player of the former, since in the latter anything is fair game. However those of us who prefer things more formal have just as much right to have our view of the rules respected as the recreational player, and in that setting, I think this should be a no.

I don't think anybody actually disagrees with you here. It goes without saying that in a formal setting you stick to the 'official' rules. However, I think the vast majority of 40k is played in an informal setting. The hyper-competitive/tournament-going crowd is a tiny minority of the hobby.

SODACANS
01-02-2011, 23:23
I would be okay with it in a friendly game, but not a tournament.

Nezalhualixtlan
01-02-2011, 23:55
Since I'm probably going to own one for my BA list I build, I guess I could keep it handy in case a non-BA Marine player wanted to do this. I mean if they were ok using it to deliver non-BA Marines, surely they'd be cool with me using it to deliver a squad of Tyranid Warriors into the fray too, right?

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 23:57
There are statements in the WD designer's notes article about the Stormraven being designed to 'fill a hole in the Space Marine range', which is reasonably taken to mean that ultimately all SM forces are meant to have it. Yet they didn't include rules allowing all SM's to take it as they did with the Eldar Nightspinner, despite reprinting the SR rules in there. Had they truly meant all SM forces to have Stormraven Gunships, at least for the foreseeable future, that would have been the point at which to make that explicit. They chose not to make use of that opportunity to do so. I think that says a lot more.

impala
01-02-2011, 23:57
Given that it's going to be in the new GK codex, I would feel *very* silly saying no...

The Marshel
02-02-2011, 00:24
Yet they didn't include rules allowing all SM's to take it as they did with the Eldar Nightspinner, despite reprinting the SR rules in there. Had they truly meant all SM forces to have Stormraven Gunships, at least for the foreseeable future, that would have been the point at which to make that explicit. They chose not to make use of that opportunity to do so. I think that says a lot more.

i think its more that they didnt want to dilute the sales with the grey knight release by having it be no so unique to the faction. specially for grey knights and blood angles sounds fr more appealing to bandwagoners and new players alike then something all marines get. they'll wait until they cant really sell the kit as blood angles/grey knights unique as well as they could if it were available to all marines before they make it official

Sparowl
02-02-2011, 03:36
they'll wait until they cant really sell the kit as blood angles/grey knights unique as well as they could if it were available to all marines before they make it official

When that happens, the UM and SW players can have a new toy.

Until then, why don't people just use their own books, rather then wanting to use every new thing that comes out?

Space Marine players are starting to have a serious sense of entitlement. You don't see Ork player yelling about how they should be able to loot every new vehicle that comes out, but that would make as much sense (possibly more).


The hyper-competitive/tournament-going crowd is a tiny minority of the hobby.

Numbers, please, or a retraction of the above statement. You might assume that, GW might assume that, but without numbers you are just making things up.

carlisimo
02-02-2011, 03:36
I thought people WANTED uniqueness in all the marine codices. Otherwise I say we just get rid of all the extra ones.

Wolf Lord Balrog
02-02-2011, 03:55
Numbers, please, or a retraction of the above statement. You might assume that, GW might assume that, but without numbers you are just making things up.

I used common sense, though I suppose you could disallow that as unfair use of a super-power ...

neko
02-02-2011, 04:06
Just because an army list is unique doesn't mean that every single unit within it should be unique.
As is, the SR has be stated to be designed as a SM flyer, and the fluff marks it as not being specific to any particular chapter. I can certainly understand the rest of the marine players being eager to get their hands on the SR without being held up by what probably comes down to a GW marketing game.

Friedrich von Offenbach
02-02-2011, 04:15
One problem i have with this disscusion: Who doesn't use the blood angels codex? In my gaming group most spacemarine players now use blood angels rules (even some dark angel players) so i'm unlikely to find anyone using a Storm raven in a non Blood angel army as there are none! - unless your refering to Orks using a storm raven which is clearly defying the point of seperate codexs

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 04:18
A properly converted and Orkified Stormraven with proper house rules written up for it would be fun.

Jind_Singh
02-02-2011, 04:42
Ah meh to some of the posters - especially the ones who cry "Well I'll bring my Necron Carnifex"

What the heck? In this case it's still Space Marines at the end of the day, if a Space Wolf player, who I play with on a normal basis, wants to use Iron Clads or Storms - why not? If it was a pick-up game then stick with what's in the book - you don't know who you playing.

And obviously the player is at a disadvantage as in tournament setting he'll have to use the codex specific units so they won't be able to put up a decent game if they become reliant on non-codex units.

And ultimately what's the big deal for friendly games? It's our game, we can do what we want with it providing we're having fun and our opponent is having fun.

What's wrong with a Chaos Marine using renegade guard units? Nothing!

The spirit of the game is what matters, if the other person has an issue then be aware of that and play accordingly - as you plonking down your shiny flier will take away from their enjoyment if they were not up for it so why bother.

And some other posters are saying "well if you can mix units then so can I"

Sure - but make sure the context is viable - NO army under the sun will ally with Necron or Tyranid - but Gaurds with Chaos - sure. Daemons with Chaos - sure. Orcs and...well more orcs! Sure! Eldar and imperials together - why not?

It's all about the context, how you do it, and how open minded the other player is.

It's a game - we play for fun - have fun!

Lord-Caerolion
02-02-2011, 05:09
Ah meh to some of the posters - especially the ones who cry "Well I'll bring my Necron Carnifex"

What the heck? In this case it's still Space Marines at the end of the day, if a Space Wolf player, who I play with on a normal basis, wants to use Iron Clads or Storms - why not? If it was a pick-up game then stick with what's in the book - you don't know who you playing.

And obviously the player is at a disadvantage as in tournament setting he'll have to use the codex specific units so they won't be able to put up a decent game if they become reliant on non-codex units.

And ultimately what's the big deal for friendly games? It's our game, we can do what we want with it providing we're having fun and our opponent is having fun.

What's wrong with a Chaos Marine using renegade guard units? Nothing!

The spirit of the game is what matters, if the other person has an issue then be aware of that and play accordingly - as you plonking down your shiny flier will take away from their enjoyment if they were not up for it so why bother.

And some other posters are saying "well if you can mix units then so can I"

Sure - but make sure the context is viable - NO army under the sun will ally with Necron or Tyranid - but Gaurds with Chaos - sure. Daemons with Chaos - sure. Orcs and...well more orcs! Sure! Eldar and imperials together - why not?

It's all about the context, how you do it, and how open minded the other player is.

It's a game - we play for fun - have fun!

You underestimate the sheer frothing rage inspired in Warseer members by the thought of doing something other than rigidly following the codex. I'm a proponent of Counts-As CSM, I've heard every ridiculous overreaction out there (but you have dark blue Marines! People are too stupid to remember that you just told them you're using Loyalists, and will automatically assume that you're using CSM, every time they make a decision!).

To the OP, people on the internet will cry cheese over any changes you make to the holy codices as laid down by GW, so go ahead. Their bitter, impotent tears of the deepest, frothiest nerd-rages imaginable make the victories that much sweeter.



You don't see Ork player yelling about how they should be able to loot every new vehicle that comes out, but that would make as much sense (possibly more).
No you don't, they just go straight ahead and loot it, and krump anyone who disagrees. I can't wait to see the conversion of a Stormraven welded/bolted/stapled/tied to a Battlewagon. Red onez really do go fasta!

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 06:24
When that happens, the UM and SW players can have a new toy.
Until then, why don't people just use their own books, rather then wanting to use every new thing that comes out?
Space Marine players are starting to have a serious sense of entitlement. You don't see Ork player yelling about how they should be able to loot every new vehicle that comes out, but that would make as much sense (possibly more).Guess its terrible that some of us have an imagination.


Numbers, please, or a retraction of the above statement. You might assume that, GW might assume that, but without numbers you are just making things up. Same can be said for the counter view. This is the internet and we are talking about the wargames industry. Asking for proof is about as useful as using a chocolate teapot.

vahouth
02-02-2011, 06:54
Guess its terrible that some of us have an imagination.


Sorry, mate but I don't think you should call people that like to go by the rules, unimaginative.
One can still be creative simply using his Codex.;)

And simply picking the best parts of a Codex mostly has a fun aspect for the guy doing it.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call fun having to face a Vulkan Thunderwolves TH/SS list.

If I see a new toy that I like, I either use it in apocalypse or proxying my army to that codex for a couple of games to see if it works for me.
If it does, I then buy that army. Or just do a pocket sided force.
Anyway that's just me...:)

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 07:10
I thought people WANTED uniqueness in all the marine codices. Otherwise I say we just get rid of all the extra ones.

They do. But the Stormraven never was pitched as unique and no longer is exclusive or unique to one chapter in any case.

The Stormraven is nothing like Thunderwolves or Death Company or Baals, or Fast Rhinos because, as both in the Blood Angel Dex itself, as well as in all available rumors and previews and sightings of the boxed set, it is painfully obvious that the Stormraven was not only designed for Blood Angels, but already for Blood Angels and the next Marine-Dex in the pipeline that has (as far as different Marine Chapters go) nothing at all to do with Blood Angels; namely Grey Knights.

Or, to ask the inverse question, why do Grey Knights (most likely) not get Death Company, or Baals, or Inferno Pistols, or Fast Rhinos, or Sanguinary Guard? Answer: Because those are things unique to the Blood Angels.

But why do they get the Stormraven? Answer: Because it is not a unique Blood Angel thing and will be in all Marine-books from here on out. Easy.

If the "next" Marine Codex in the pipeline would not have been Grey Knights, but instead Black Templars, or Iron Hands, or Rainbow Warriors, the Stormraven entry in the BA Codex would have previewed them instead of Grey Knights. Simple. The "uniqueness" of the Stormraven is a fluke of the Codex-publication schedule and not a feature tied in any shape or form to the background of 40K (as it is with Sanguinary Guard, fast Rhinos, etc..).

Consequently, I see no issue with an excited Marine Player Jumping the queue and wanting to play a Stormraven with his Salamaders or whatever as long as they are new, hot and sexy instead of 3 years from now when they drop them in the generic Marine Dex and 90% of current hobbyists have likely moved on again to a new past-time alltogether.

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 07:24
Sorry, mate but I don't think you should call people that like to go by the rules, unimaginative.
One can still be creative simply using his Codex.;)I didn't do that.


And simply picking the best parts of a Codex mostly has a fun aspect for the guy doing it.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call fun having to face a Vulkan Thunderwolves TH/SS list. I wouldn't mind playing that army at all, as long as there is a reasonable justification. I have played a few games in 2e against a guy with a jump pack equipped wolf guard terminator army, all with Assault canons, Cyclone missile launcers and lightning claws. didn't spoil the fun.

Sticking rigidly to the rules is actually against the ethos of GWs games. Every rulebook I have ever had off them has encouraged gamers to think outside the box, to create or adapt rules and scenarios. I am not against people wanting to play by the rules, I am vehemently against the dogmatic application and adherence to the written word because "so it is written by GW, so can it only be". Balderdash.

So in this case, its fine for a marine player to use a Stormraven. In fact I'd let Harlequins, Orks, Chaos Marines and Dark Eldar use them too. All can be justified.

Captain Semper
02-02-2011, 07:54
I think Sparowl has a point. No one is against people having an imagination but this is still a game with rules. Sure, people can try out all sort of combinations and justify them how they like, but I cannot help thinking that "borrowing" the attractive new element from one marine codex to add it to another looks like... greediness. In fact this argument bodes well with the arguments on another thread regarding individual SM codices. A single codex that will allow all SM chapters access to all SM wargear at the expense of individually exotic rules might be the way to go...

Souleater
02-02-2011, 07:56
But why do[Grey Knights] get the Stormraven? Answer: Because it is not a unique Blood Angel thing and will be in all Marine-books from here on out. Easy.

Er...no. GK can use it because it is in their codex. I apologise if it seems like I'm using smoke and mirrors here but I doubt it was a typo. The rules currently restrict it to only one army. We might 'know' that GK are getting the SR but people are assuming that other chapters will get it. Maybe only those two chapters will ever have it and GW will give other Marines the plastic T'hawk they've been begging for for so long

If GW were so keen to sell the SR kit they could have given it to all chapters in this month's WD in preparation for the summer of flyers. They would have sold more of it to BT, DA, SW, vanilla or even Chaos Marine players.

Yes, they want to push BA but how many 'chapter of the week' armies are going to end up using it? I question whether this increases sales of different Marine armies or simply different codexes.

That's by the by. My main point - I understand and fully accept the idea of using it in friendly games. I regularly play against a guy who using LotD in his SW army. However, my concern is that players will show up to random pick-up games assuming the Emperor given right to use it and get annoyed if the opponent refuses.

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 08:03
That's by the by. My main point - I understand and fully accept the idea of using it in friendly games. I regularly play against a guy who using LotD in his SW army. However, my concern is that players will show up to random pick-up games assuming the Emperor given right to use it and get annoyed if the opponent refuses.

Fair enough. On the other hand however, I dread years upon years of whining nerd-rage as chapter after chapter gets updated with a Stormraven because people assumed it was meant to be Blood Angel (& perhaps Grey Knight) exclusive, even though it was only a Blood Angel (& than Grey Knight) first.

In that sense, I think the Stormraven is decidedly different to ... say Sanguinary Guard or Thunderwolves. Sanguinary Guard in your Salamanders Army is Apocalypse for-the-heck-of-it nonesense. A Stormraven in your Salamanders Army on the other and is just testing the waters for what is to come (almost certainly) eventually.

In this sense I, personally, would not object to an Ultramarine or Salamander Stormraven in a pick-up game, while on the other hand I would object to Ultramarine Sanguinary Guard or Salamander Thunder Wolves.

Sparowl
02-02-2011, 08:11
No you don't, they just go straight ahead and loot it, and krump anyone who disagrees. I can't wait to see the conversion of a Stormraven welded/bolted/stapled/tied to a Battlewagon. Red onez really do go fasta!

A properly converted and Orkified Stormraven with proper house rules written up for it would be fun.

In fact I'd let Harlequins, Orks, Chaos Marines and Dark Eldar use them too. All can be justified.

Alright, I really do find it funny how many people agreed with Orks using one. Also, I have to give credit where its due, as some of the people who advocate using the SR in other Marines armies were also willing to see the point about using it in non-marine armies.

I'm still against it, mind you, but I do appreciate the consistency.


I used common sense, though I suppose you could disallow that as unfair use of a super-power ...

Presenting facts or numbers to back up your point of view on the internet would not only be a super-power, it would be a miracle.

Refusing to admit that you don't have any, and instead insinuating that you just know better, on the other hand, is so common on the net that it's downright cliche.


Same can be said for the counter view. This is the internet and we are talking about the wargames industry. Asking for proof is about as useful as using a chocolate teapot.

Although that comment might not be directed at me, I felt the need to point out that some of us make sure we are clear when we state opinion, rather then fact.

Also, a chocolate teapot sounds delicious. You'd just have to use iced Tea, I imagine. Then you could eat it when you were done with the tea. :)

Souleater
02-02-2011, 08:19
Agree with your first and third paragraphs.

Disagree with the second - you are restricting what an opponent can field due to fluff - something that can all too often be justified, IMO.

e.g Space Wolf Valkyrie Guardians or Salamander Lizard Riders.

Notice how the first seems like desperate justification to use a unit from another codex...while the second one might already be on a sketch pad at GW HQ somewhere?


Also, a chocolate teapot sounds delicious. You'd just have to use iced Tea, I imagine. Then you could eat it when you were done with the tea. :)


Genius!

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 08:52
If GW were so keen to sell the SR kit they could have given it to all chapters in this month's WD in preparation for the summer of flyers. They would have sold more of it to BT, DA, SW, vanilla or even Chaos Marine players. No they wouldn't of. GW have learnt from that mistake before. It will appear in a supplement or in the next round of FAQ and Errata up dates so as to make it "official" for those who need it to be. I am saying the summer, as it will give them a second"wave release" type of sales boost.

Although that comment might not be directed at me, I felt the need to point out that some of us make sure we are clear when we state opinion, rather then fact. Not really, you were just in this morning's firing line first ;). People need to be more critical in their thinking and less criticising in their language as a whole on here. And I include myself in that.

Also, a chocolate teapot sounds delicious. You'd just have to use iced Tea, I imagine. Then you could eat it when you were done with the tea. :) Iced tea is served in a jug, no? In which case sounds ace :) But if you make the mistake of using real tea in a chocolate teapot, all you end up with is very confused diarrhoea.

Souleater
02-02-2011, 09:59
I don't doubt it will be allowed in the SoF but given the number of marine players getting it for either their GK, BA or non-BA armies on release I wonder just how many are going to be left to buy it come then.

From what I've gathered here and talking to Marine players most will already have bought their SRs by then.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 10:34
Also, a chocolate teapot sounds delicious. You'd just have to use iced Tea, I imagine. Then you could eat it when you were done with the tea. :)


No matter what else happens in this thread, you and I will always agree on this.

And I do try to be consistent, even in my insanity:p



Iced tea is served in a jug, no? In which case sounds ace :) But if you make the mistake of using real tea in a chocolate teapot, all you end up with is very confused diarrhoea.

Still worth it. At least once.

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 11:14
What's wrong with a Chaos Marine using renegade guard units? Nothing!
...
And some other posters are saying "well if you can mix units then so can I"

Sure - but make sure the context is viable - NO army under the sun will ally with Necron or Tyranid - but Gaurds with Chaos - sure. Daemons with Chaos - sure. Orcs and...well more orcs! Sure! Eldar and imperials together - why not?

Imperial Guard could easily ally with Tyranids via Genestealer infestation. Would you have a problem if I used Valkyries to zoom my Tyranids fighters across the board? Fluff-wise it'd be a stretch to get Space Marines to ever be able to succumb to that, but what about Orks that looted a Stormraven who subsequently were subjected to a Genestealer infestation?

Fluff is a poor justification for mixing some codexes but not all, because usually anything can be written to justify some combination. Once you start cherry picking the best units out of multiple codexes to play with in a single list, you might as well start using the Apocalypse rules.

Again, it doesn't matter if both opponents in a non-competitive game agree to it, then go nuts. But you can't just dismiss those of us that would like to play by the rules or if the rules are being broken have the same otherwise undeserved benefits as their opponent applied to them as well for even friendly competitive games. Once GW officially allows it, as I expect they might one day not too far off, then fine, again go nuts. Just don't expect some undeserved benefits currently that you aren't willing to extend to your opponent because you are impatient with GWs release schedule. I don't think it's likely, especially as they're going to want to sell more of those models in the future, but it's conceivable GW doesn't intend for non-BA (or soon GK) Marines to use the Stormraven for a long while, and that when they finally do they will print a new Codex for them with revamped point costs or other rule restrictions for other units for the sake of game balance. Afterall, the Blood Angels still can't use Thunderfire cannons or a Master of the Forge, right?

Chem-Dog
02-02-2011, 11:49
Not sure how serious you are, good sir, but, this isn't specifically a rebuttal to you so much as people who take this stance: Where is the logic?

Seriousness quotient is less than 0.03%. I was simply pre-empting the Naysayers with a little "Daily Mail logic".

I'm cool with reasonable requests of this magnitude but this is because I almost exclusively play with an established group of mates, if I were to take leave of my senses and step foot into a hobby centre to play a game snd go up against a SW/DA/CSM or whatever that were accompanied by a SR I would be :wtf::rolleyes:.
But I'd be laughing, because I own Hydras :evilgrin:




I think all UM flyers should be covered by a new special rule called: Whooshing machines live longer with Calgar...

I'm so, so sorry... :cries:

WIN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIfayRbEPDI)



... so many of us are stuck with badly-aging 3E/4E codexes.

*Dark Eldar Flashback*.....


I just get the feeling that if we changed the question to "would you mind if my CSMs take drop pods?", the answer would be VASTLY different.

Yes it would, because it wouldn't involve Grey Knights or Blood Angels....
Nah, go on, I don't mind. Btw my Ogryn are -actually- Wraithguard, that's cool right?:angel:

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 12:31
Perhaps removing the specifics from the OP question will help. Maybe the question should be:

Do you play purely using the rules, or do you enjoy changing them to increase your (and your opponents) enjoyment of the hobby?

Its not an unreasonable question, I also feel it isn't one that has a right answer, so it certainly isn't one to get upset about.

To those in this case that would allow it I would say there are probably reasons that people don't want to, such as being unfortunate in previous opponents, or enjoying the challenge of sticking to one set of rules.

To those that wouldn't allow it I would say that there are some people who have different reasons to want to change the rules. Some are indeed playing for advantage, and some for story. By picking your opponents carefully you can avoid those who's game style doesn't match yours.

Badruk
02-02-2011, 12:38
APOC => Yes
Regular and super friendly game => Why not
League or Tournament => Nada!

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 12:39
Perhaps removing the specifics from the OP question will help. Maybe the question should be:

Do you play purely using the rules, or do you enjoy changing them to increase your (and your opponents) enjoyment of the hobby?.

I think this would be precisely the wrong way to go about it, because it misses the particularities that appear to make this case special; namely.

- Space Marine Codexes share many units; a Space-Marine specific "cross-codex" question is thus different from a non-Space Marine specific question. Like it or hate it.
- The Stormraven is a new Space Marine Unit introduced so far in one, soon two Space Marine Codexes which also appears to lack the "unique" serial numbers that make Thunderwolves or Sanguinary Guard specific to one chapter. So given point 1 above, it makes sense to assume an extension into all Space Marine armies.
- The whole 40K range as a whole appears to be moving towards introducing more "flyers" or "flyer-style", larger fast skimmers as seen with the IG Valkyrie and the DE Fighter/Bomber. The Stormraven seemingly the SM-equivalent to this. Given points 1 and 2 above, it makes sense to assume an extension into all Space Marine armies.

All three points above indicate that the Stormraven is a "special" case that is quite incomparable to Wraithlords in an Ork army or some such, and it is IMO the sheer amount of troll-noise that clutter this discussion with "would you like Genestealers in a Valkyrie?" non-sense as a result of trying to answer the Stormraven-question in the "generic", rather than the "specifics" of this case, that is distracting from the meat of the argument.

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 12:48
The question is also loaded. You might ask on the other side:

"Do you like to cheat, or play a fair game?"

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 12:50
Ah, but this being a special case then introduces opinion into it. There are arguments for and against including it - for example GW having an opportunity to making it allowable and deciding not to. The other things that people have suggested such as CSM using Drop Pods or Bloodletters. The idea that even if the other chapters haven't yet got Stormravens they might have a comparible flier and the SR would be a neat model to use.

If you are chosing to consider playing in a way that isn't covered by the rules you are exercising personal judgement as to fairness and suitability, but the question is do you want to make that judgement yourself or leave it to the Games Developers?

As an aside I would allow it - both because I think it is appropriate (fluffy if you like) and because I think it will eventually be included in the standard SM book (or a varient anyway).

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 12:52
The question is also loaded. You might ask on the other side:

"Do you like to cheat, or play a fair game?"

How is it cheating to allow your opponent to use something not in their codex?

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 12:54
I'll rephrase.

'Would you prefer your opponent cheat or play a fair game?'

It's a loaded question, but fundamentally true.

RobPro
02-02-2011, 12:59
Necrons and Blood Angels are BFFs now, per the new BA Codex. Therefore, Necrons can use Storm Ravens.

The Marshel
02-02-2011, 12:59
I dunno poseidal, I get where your coming from but the overall question is if you would let your opponent do it. Its something you'd discuss before hand and either agree to or disagree. Just putting it down on the table and hoping your opponent didn't notice tour marines aren't red would be cheating but getting opponent consent before hand is an entirely differant matter in my mind

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 13:00
I'll rephrase.
'Would you prefer your opponent cheat or play a fair game?'
It's a loaded question, but fundamentally true. But not relevant to this thread.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 13:01
My opponent and I have agreed to a set of rules to play by. Whether they are him using a Stormraven or settling all assaults by Scissors Paper Stone is up to us to decide on the fairness. I certainly don't consider it cheating.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 13:02
I'll rephrase.

'Would you prefer your opponent cheat or play a fair game?'

It's a loaded question, but fundamentally true.

It's not cheating if both people agree.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 13:03
Necrons and Blood Angels are BFFs now, per the new BA Codex. Therefore, Necrons can use Storm Ravens.

Therefore you have the right to ask your opponent to use them. He may not agree...

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 13:26
The Stormraven is a new Space Marine Unit introduced so far in one, soon two Space Marine Codexes which also appears to lack the "unique" serial numbers that make Thunderwolves or Sanguinary Guard specific to one chapter. So given point 1 above, it makes sense to assume an extension into all Space Marine armies.

The Blood Angels codex in the specific entry for the Storm Raven states that it is used by the Grey Knights, and that while other chapters use other methods like Drop Pods and Land Raiders, the Blood Angels specifically don't cede their mastery of the skies and so employ them despite the reluctance of the AdMech, or simple bureaucratic delay.

In the end, that's the fluff for this unit. Other Chapters besides the Grey Knights don't make use of it, and whatever the cause of delay in implementation of them using it, it is real and defined in the fluff - not just some weird omission on the part of GW and a failure to address why that is the case. One day, that lag may be ended in the fluff and GW may make it available to other Chapters officially. But there *is* reason for why other Chapters don't have it - both rules/game balance wise & in the fluff.


All three points above indicate that the Stormraven is a "special" case that is quite incomparable to Wraithlords in an Ork army or some such, and it is IMO the sheer amount of troll-noise that clutter this discussion with "would you like Genestealers in a Valkyrie?" non-sense as a result of trying to answer the Stormraven-question in the "generic", rather than the "specifics" of this case, that is distracting from the meat of the argument.

Asking about Genestealers in a Valkyrie is not trolling. Once you start justifying cherry picking units out of one codex to help buff your power or "fun" with another, why should one opponent enjoy that benefit while the other is left at a normal legal amount of power and "fun", and why should one army benefit from being able to do this just because the two army types both wear power armor when the fluff is pretty specific that other marine chapters do not use them yet.

And why the focus on Stormravens? Why not argue about why the Blood angels can't use Thunderfire cannons. How about why the Ultramarines can't use Librarian Dreadnoughts? What about why the Blood Angels can't use a Master of the Forge? How about why Chaos Marines can't use Drop Pods? There are a number of different units in one Marine-type codex that are not in others, a fair enough number of them that seemingly do not have any specific Chapter related restrictions. Or why stop there, how about having a counts as Vulkan He'stan character join a Space Wolves successor?

While they don't do a fantastic job of it, they do try to balance their codexes against each other and internally. Once you violate that internal balance, cross contaminating one codex with units from another, why is it that you consider that fine as long as the armies both wear power armor, but it's not fine when there are justifiable fluff reasons to be able to do other combinations?

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 13:26
But not relevant to this thread.

It's fundamentally what the thread is about though. Are you prepared to allow your opponent to use a non-standard list (ie breaking the normal rules)?

The answer is always more complicated, as it depends on the social situation you're in:

If it was a tournament, the question in the title literally is my rephrasing (would you let your opponent cheat). If I'm playing with some friends in a club and we want to try something different, then the question becomes another phrasing (would you play non-standard for a bit of variation).

My main question for most Marine armies is: Is there something in the Codex:SM list you MUST HAVE that you can't represent your army from the Blood Angels codex?

Is that something Vulkan, for example?

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 13:29
It's fundamentally what the thread is about though. Are you prepared to allow your opponent to use a non-standard list (ie breaking the normal rules)?
The answer is always more complicated, as it depends on the social situation you're in:
If it was a tournament, the question in the title literally is my rephrasing (would you let your opponent cheat). If I'm playing with some friends in a club and we want to try something different, then the question becomes another phrasing (would you play non-standard for a bit of variation).
My main question for most Marine armies is: Is there something in the Codex:SM list you MUST HAVE that you can't represent your army from the Blood Angels codex?
Is that something Vulkan, for example? Nope - because cheating is something different.
This thread is about would people play against a non-BA Stormraven. As such it is consensual and therefore no cheating. There is no way this can e considered as cheating.

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 13:31
The Blood Angels codex in the specific entry for the Storm Raven states that it is used by the Grey Knights, and that while other chapters use other methods like Drop Pods and Land Raiders, the Blood Angels specifically don't cede their mastery of the skies and so employ them despite the reluctance of the AdMech, or simple bureaucratic delay.


That is not at all what it says.

What it says in the Blood Angels Codex is that the Grey Knights use of the Stormraven is the most notable (implying not the only) instance of Stormravens in use before the Adeptus Mechanicus approved, quote, "mass production" for, quote, the "armies of mankind", which was delayed (including for the Blood Angels) due to possibly bureacuratic inertia.

It also says much further down that how Blood Angels use the Stormraven is different to other chapters and more akin to how they use Drop Pods, etc.. .


Deliberatly or not, you're misquoting the text to fit your judgement on the issue.


Also, why would, from a company perspective, the Blood Angel Codex want to preview that the newest addition is also used by the next Space Marine Codex in the pipeline, in this case Grey Knights? Answer: precisely to make the point that the Stormraven is not unique. If the 2011 Marine Codex would not have been Grey Knight, but Rainbow Warriors instead, the Stormraven-entry in the Blood Angels dex would have most likely been talking about Rainbow Warriors instead.

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 13:32
The Blood Angels codex in the specific entry for the Storm Raven states that it is used by the Grey Knights, and that while other chapters use other methods like Drop Pods and Land Raiders, the Blood Angels specifically don't cede their mastery of the skies and so employ them despite the reluctance of the AdMech, or simple bureaucratic delay.

In the end, that's the fluff for this unit.

This thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290693) demonstrates by its mere existence that there's not universal agreement about that. It's initial post even gives contradicting canon evidence. :)



And why the focus on Stormravens?

Because the topic of this thread is "Would you play against a non BA stormraven". You want to discuss the general case, then go to this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291641). :) Also, the Stormraven is the main topic of discussion because it's the latest shiny thing. Gamers are fickle.

SPYDER68
02-02-2011, 13:37
only if its a legal choice for that army to field.

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 13:38
My main question for most Marine armies is: Is there something in the Codex:SM list you MUST HAVE that you can't represent your army from the Blood Angels codex?

Is that something Vulkan, for example?

I've mentioned this previously:


I'm not getting at you personally, but this attitude bugs me, so I'm going to rail against it at every opportunity. :)

...The sooner people get away from this creeping paranoia that any attempt to do things differently to the rulebooks is to gain an unfair advantage, the better..

Honestly, I feel sorry for you, and wonder what it is that's caused this depressing attitude, that you have to attribute dishonest motives to strangers. :)


only if its a legal choice for that army to field.

So, assuming some rumours are correct and the Stormraven will become a codex-permitted choice for other Space Marine armies in the near future, somehow it's unfair on Monday evening, but perfectly fine on Tuesday monring? Why? It's not like the game will be magically re-balanced overnight.

Actually, that's a bit unfair. At least you've managed to state your opinion on the matter without accusing the other side of dishonesty, for which I applaud you. :)

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 13:39
Nope - because cheating is something different.
This thread is about would people play against a non-BA Stormraven. As such it is consensual and therefore no cheating. There is no way this can e considered as cheating.
The OP didn't specify what setting or environment, so a tournament setting is still a valid environment.

If I let someone use one in a (standard) tournament where it wasn't in his army selection, be it Codex: Space Marines, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau or Chaos, I am letting him cheat.

The OP asks would I allow it? in that setting, I probably wouldn't (I don't play in tournaments though).

In the setting of a club, among friends I would allow it; I'm not bound by the rules of the tournament and neither is my opponent.


The OP said:


Personally I wouldn't allow it on the moment, because I IMO it feels like picking
the best parts of varius codeci for a game.

Which implies to me he regards it as breaking the rules.

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 13:41
Asking about Genestealers in a Valkyrie is not trolling. Once you start justifying cherry picking units out of one codex to help buff your power or "fun" with another, why should one opponent enjoy that benefit while the other is left at a normal legal amount of power and "fun", and why should one army benefit from being able to do this just because the two army types both wear power armor when the fluff is pretty specific that other marine chapters do not use them yet.

And why the focus on Stormravens? Why not argue about why the Blood angels can't use Thunderfire cannons. How about why the Ultramarines can't use Librarian Dreadnoughts? What about why the Blood Angels can't use a Master of the Forge? How about why Chaos Marines can't use Drop Pods? There are a number of different units in one Marine-type codex that are not in others, a fair enough number of them that seemingly do not have any specific Chapter related restrictions. Or why stop there, how about having a counts as Vulkan He'stan character join a Space Wolves successor?


I think this answer you give above is one possible and likely viable response to the OP. Nevertheless, there are reasons to believe that, in the very specific case of the Stormraven, things might be different and a cross-codex use of the Stormraven justified where the cross-codex use of Genestealers or Special Characters is not.

I am not saying the debate cannot go either way and there are no reasons at all for denying the Stormraven to Ultramarines, but by ignoring the very fact that there are some unique elements to this case that simply do not apply as such to genestealers, etc.. , is deliberatly avoiding the question raised by the OP and thus pointless troll-spam in this discussion.

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 13:47
The OP didn't specify what setting or environment, so a tournament setting is still a valid environment.
If I let someone use one in a (standard) tournament where it wasn't in his army selection, be it Codex: Space Marines, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau or Chaos, I am letting him cheat.Well technically you are both, along with the organisers, cheating. But only if the tournament specifies these dimensions. If the tournament players specify that its allowed, then it isn't cheating. Again, its irrelevant because this is a personal choice. And if you chose yes, then it isn't cheating.

The OP said:
Which implies to me he regards it as breaking the rules. Breaking the army book selection criteria, yes. Cheating, no. Afterall, how else do fandexes, amendments and expansions get done?

So no more talk about cheating.

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 13:48
Actually, the other specific instance, of Genestealers riding Valkyries, also seems fine. After all, Genestealer Cults had access to almost everything the Imperial Guard had, and more. Think of it as the Cult Magus' private jet. :)

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 13:51
Honestly, I feel sorry for you, and wonder what it is that's caused this depressing attitude, that you have to attribute dishonest motives to strangers. :)


Well, I'm sort of taking the devil's advocate here.

But the Storm Raven is an interesting case:

If I was messing around and wanted to make a fun list, I'd proxy my Crimson Fists as Blood Angels and build generic characters (possibly a regarded 'weak' choice like a Captain) to represent Kantor and avoid overtly Blood Angel like units. I find the Blood Angels army list close enough to the Codex Marines list and if I want to use something like the Stormraven, it's not too had just to substitute rules.

On the other hand, Black Templars and Space Wolves are very different in organisation. It's not a problem to drop it in, as substituting won't work out.

The same goes for Chaos Marines Renegades, or even an Ork looted one for instance.

In contrast only logical reason I can see for taking it with Codex Marines (as opposed to counts-as Blood Angels) is for a pure gameplay advantage. Unless he really likes Thunderfire Cannons.

vahouth
02-02-2011, 14:42
only if its a legal choice for that army to field.

Exactly!
The GK Stormraven or any other Stormraven could be different, both in rules or equipment than the current BA one.
It could cost differently or occupy a different FOC slot, to reflect its different use for the chapter.
See how many Predator Dreadnought or Land Raider variants there are.
We cannot expect other chapters that deploy SRs (if any), to use them the BA way.
One of the reasons it's not yet available to other armies could be the fact that it could tilt the game balance.:shifty:

I know our game is not a balanced one of course -it's not chess- but I am optimistic and I want to believe that GW will strive to balance things from now on.:angel:

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 14:43
In contrast only logical reason I can see for taking it with Codex Marines (as opposed to counts-as Blood Angels) is for a pure gameplay advantage. Unless he really likes Thunderfire Cannons. Or they like the model
Or they want to try it
Or they have a background it will suit
Or they don't klike the majority of the BA rules and mechanics, so counts as doesn't work
Or because they got given one as a present and now they want to use it.
There are many reasons for wanting one in your army.
The question for me for the naysayers is what have you got to lose by trying it?

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 15:12
Exactly!
The GK Stormraven or any other Stormraven could be different, both in rules or equipment than the current BA one.
It could cost differently or occupy a different FOC slot, to reflect its different use for the chapter.
See how many Predator Dreadnought or Land Raider variants there are.
We cannot expect other chapters that deploy SRs (if any), to use them the BA way.
One of the reasons it's not yet available to other armies could be the fact that it could tilt the game balance.:shifty:

I know our game is not a balanced one of course -it's not chess- but I am optimistic and I want to believe that GW will strive to balance things from now on.:angel:

This is exactly the reason to disallow it unless it's a consenting game where your opponent is fine with it for a non-standard and very probably non-competitive game.

Most of the BA vehicles are Fast, including the Stormraven. What if a non-BA Stormraven is not Fast? It might seem silly as it's essentially a flyer, but it's not out of the question either... the thing might have wings but it's a flying brick, and big like a landraider... it can hold Terminators and is an assault vehicle where most other Marine transports can't.

Long Fangs & Devastators have different point costs and some abilities or equipment changes even though they are more or less the same unit.

A lot of the BA vehicles require you to purchase a searchlight if you want it, but you don't have to, where a lot of other Marines come with it standard as part of the cost of the unit, what if a non-BA Stormraven eventually costs more because it rolls a searchlight into it. It may be trivial at 1 point, but when you get to the point cap, 1 point can make the difference between an extra bit of wargear for a unit or not, and that isn't trivial.

What if the Stormraven gets put in a different Force Org slot than what it is in BA?

These are all things that are possible, and reasons for why its kind of a bad idea to mix and match the codexes. You just assume too much if you think you can simply transplant a unit verbatim from one Marine codex to another - GW clearly sets precedent that is not a valid assumption you can make. Otherwise, why not argue to take your Landraiders in the Ultramarines or Space Wolves codex as Dedicated Transports rather than Heavies for everything and let them Deepstrike to boot? That's not all that much different.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 15:27
The question for me for the naysayers is what have you got to lose by trying it?

As someone that is going to be building and painting some Wolfravens, I don't think that is really a fair question, nor one important to me. A polite "No thanks, I'd rather not," is perfectly OK. I'll have a codex list ready to go.

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 15:34
As someone that is going to be building and painting some Wolfravens, I don't think that is really a fair question, nor one important to me. A polite "No thanks, I'd rather not," is perfectly OK. I'll have a codex list ready to go. Why is it not fair?

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 15:54
Why is it not fair?

I'm a naysayer and I think it is a fair question. What do you have to lose by trying it? Nothing but a single game where you try it out.

And that's fine if it's something you want to do, no one should stop you if that's where you go with it.

But if you are running a list like that you need to be aware that it isn't a legal list and should try not to act like a jerk if you run into someone that likes to play the game by the actual rules. And you are free to not play people like that if you don't want too, no one will force you, but be aware that someone who wouldn't let you do this is not being a jerk by wanting to play the game according to the rules.

All we've been trying to point out is, how would you feel if someone tried to break the rules for undeserved advantage by taking cool and complimentary units from a different armies codex to buff their own power while not extending you the same competitive courtesy?

I'm in the process of building a Blood Angels list, and a Salamanders list and I'll almost definitely purchase a few Stormravens before I'm through. I just could not in good conscious ask my opponent to be ok with me swapping a Stormraven in for a Landraider for my Vulkan lead mastercrafted Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator unit + Ironclad Dreads. I don't think that would be sporting, at least not while GW has deemed it outside the bounds of a legal list. So I find it hard to see why others should expect their opponents to be ok with that either.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 16:10
Why is it not fair?

The naysayers here have explained why they don't want to play against it and thus, by extension, what they feel they would be losing. Continuing to ask, "But what would you have to lose?" smacks a bit of cajoling.

RobPro
02-02-2011, 17:11
What you have to lose - the 1.5-2.5 hours it takes to play a game, which means a lot to those of us who can only really get in one game a week.

It all comes down to opponent consent, or whatever the tournament organizer says. I would prefer not to see a Storm Raven unless I was playing against someone who had it in their codex. Just like nobody wants me to run Monoliths with my Eldar, or Wave Serpents with my Necrons.

althathir
02-02-2011, 17:14
I wouldn't mind it all really I kinda expect most chapters to gain access to them during the summer of flyers event thats rumoured via white drawf. Currently it wouldn't be legal in tournament unless the organizer made it so and if thats the case I would know in advance so no problem there. In a pickup game I would expect the player to to ask if I was alright with it, but at the end of the day whether or not the army is legal or not has less to do with my enjoyment of the game then how well a get along with the person im playing (I don't mind rules lawyers or really competitive players but WAAC gets on my nerves).

Gwyidion
02-02-2011, 18:04
The real problem with cross-codexing, and in this specific case, using a non-BA stormraven is illustrated in the few preceding posts to this.

The problem is when someone shows up for a game expecting to be able to use a SR in a non-BA (and soon non-GK) list, being denied by an opponent, and subsequently in any way making their prospective opponent feel like an a**hole for simply wanting to play by the rules.

It happens with forgeworld all the time. Guy comes down to the store, with a list with FW, looking for a game. I say "i prefer to use only GW codex units", and should we play, I get mutters, comments, and the conversation on our table and with neighboring tables the entire time revolves around the use of FW units in games and I get crap for doing nothing but wanting to play a simple game of 40k by the rules.

Any game which is not a tournament game (i.e., the outcome matters for nothing but bragging rights) is a 'friendly'. Asking an opponent in a friendly game to accept non-codex units (forgeworld or non-BA SR) is asking for a favor. Taking that favor for granted or looking like your puppy got kicked through a plate glass window if that favor denied is a ******* move of the highest order.

Mashing codexes together is fine, but you aren't playing wh40k anymore, and playing altered rules in a club is fine, but if someone wants to play by the rules, they shouldn't have to take flak for it. Thats the real problem - when people who just want to play by the rules are made to feel like a**holes for doing nothing but wanting to play by the rules.

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 18:16
The problem is when someone shows up for a game expecting to be able to use a SR in a non-BA (and soon non-GK) list, being denied by an opponent, and subsequently in any way making their prospective opponent feel like an a**hole for simply wanting to play by the rules.

And who has even suggested that they would expect to be allowed to use it?


Mashing codexes together is fine, but you aren't playing wh40k anymore Flat-out rubbish, I'm afraid. I'm using the rules as written in the 40K rulebook, and 40K miniatures to represent a battle taking place in the 40K setting. What else am I playing? :rolleyes:

This is what those of use with a more ... unlimited ... mindset are objecting to. I don't mind if you only ever want to play games conforming strictly to the published books. I might think you're missing out by doing so, but that's your perogative. However, it's highly insulting for you to sit there and imply that I'm somehow doing it wrong.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 18:20
And the reverse is just as true. When it's just assumed that such things are being done for WAAC purposes and the people wanting to use FW or the SR for the fun of it are basically called out as liars.

The people you described there are jerks, but the FW stuff didn't make them jerks. Its how they reacted. Similarly, the people that say "No thanks" to non-codex SRs aren't jerks, but the ones who snidely second-guess motivations in the process are. I'm not going to judge those who can be polite about saying no by those who can't.

Myself, I wouldn't ask to use Wolfy SRs against a stranger in a pick up game (unless I had them out for some reason and he seemed into them). Against people I play with regularly, I'd have already sounded them out, and know who would be cool with it. In a tourney environment, they stay home.

And we are playing 40K even with Wolf Ravens and IG Monoliths and what not, as "change the game as you and your opponent see fit" is in the rules! :D

Vaktathi
02-02-2011, 18:23
It happens with forgeworld all the time. Guy comes down to the store, with a list with FW, looking for a game. I say "i prefer to use only GW codex units", and should we play, I get mutters, comments, and the conversation on our table and with neighboring tables the entire time revolves around the use of FW units in games and I get crap for doing nothing but wanting to play a simple game of 40k by the rules. That's probably because nowhere in the rulebook does it state what consists of a "normal game" and that "40k by the rules" as a result doesn't necessarily exclude FW stuff. Codex/BRB is a convention, primarily a tournament convention where it's done for simplicities sake, not a rules standard printed in the BRB.

yabbadabba
02-02-2011, 18:26
But if you are running a list like that you need to be aware that it isn't a legal list and should try not to act like a jerk if you run into someone that likes to play the game by the actual rules. And you are free to not play people like that if you don't want too, no one will force you, but be aware that someone who wouldn't let you do this is not being a jerk by wanting to play the game according to the rules. I'm going to answer this at the bottom with Gwyidion's post.

All we've been trying to point out is, how would you feel if someone tried to break the rules for undeserved advantage by taking cool and complimentary units from a different armies codex to buff their own power while not extending you the same competitive courtesy?This is wrong. Bloke "Can I use a SR in my Salamanders list tonight?"
Other bloke "Not really, I kind of like playing whats in the books, much like you probably like to experiment."
Bloke "Okies, I'll catch up with you when I have a codex army then if thats ok?"
Other bloke "Yeah, great". No accusations of cheating, no accusations of rule breaking. One hobby from two different perspectives, living side by side.

The naysayers here have explained why they don't want to play against it and thus, by extension, what they feel they would be losing. Continuing to ask, "But what would you have to lose?" smacks a bit of cajoling. No they have explained why they would not allow it (mostly because its not in the rules) and not what they get to lose by giving it a go. Different. Thats why I asked.

What you have to lose - the 1.5-2.5 hours it takes to play a game, which means a lot to those of us who can only really get in one game a week. As you said, consent is important. If you value your gaming time to that degree then you should only play the games you value. Its the same for the other bloke too.

snip So are you a victim here? And yet we have posters on here accusing people who would like to experiment a bit of being cheats, but of course they are not victims :rolleyes:. Gwyidion, if thats the people you play with then I pity you for having such a bunch of idiots around you.
I'll tell you what has got my goat. All people are entitled to their opinions and how to play - I absolutely value that. In this particular case there are two distinct camps and neither are wrong. I absolutely reject ideas that using a SR in a non-BA army is cheating or breaking the rules. It can only happen with your opponents consent first, and this sort of experimentation is enshrined in GWs hobby ethos. Thats what annoys me, that somehow people who want to do this are morally inferior. What a load of bullcrap :mad:

Slashattack
02-02-2011, 18:27
I stick to playing by the rules, therefore if it isn't your book you can't use it. This applies to the storm raven.

I will play marines who are painted as salamanders but use the blood angels codex. However I'll probably have a dig at the player for playing something which is against fluff.

baphomael
02-02-2011, 18:41
The real problem with cross-codexing, and in this specific case, using a non-BA stormraven is illustrated in the few preceding posts to this.

The problem is when someone shows up for a game expecting to be able to use a SR in a non-BA (and soon non-GK) list, being denied by an opponent, and subsequently in any way making their prospective opponent feel like an a**hole for simply wanting to play by the rules.

It happens with forgeworld all the time. Guy comes down to the store, with a list with FW, looking for a game. I say "i prefer to use only GW codex units", and should we play, I get mutters, comments, and the conversation on our table and with neighboring tables the entire time revolves around the use of FW units in games and I get crap for doing nothing but wanting to play a simple game of 40k by the rules.


Thats a crying shame really. I quite like to use FW rules and units, and I've asked opponents at pick-up games if they're OK with that. Often, they've not minded...but I've never felt an expectation that they should be, I always make provision to use an alternate list just in case. When I finish my Tyrant's Legion I'll make sure to have extra marine and/or guard units in order to field a straight marine or guard list if people really dont wanna play against a FW list.

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 19:06
And who has even suggested that they would expect to be allowed to use it?



It happens with forgeworld all the time. Guy comes down to the store, with a list with FW, looking for a game. I say "i prefer to use only GW codex units", and should we play, I get mutters, comments, and the conversation on our table and with neighboring tables the entire time revolves around the use of FW units in games and I get crap for doing nothing but wanting to play a simple game of 40k by the rules.

OK, missed that in my last response, sorry.

Have you considered looking for another group? If that's really happening all the time, then it appears that you and the people you game with aren't on the same wavelength. Are there any others with whom you'd have more in common?

landingshortly
02-02-2011, 19:18
why not?

fitting the fluff and that's good.

an all nurgle list with blight drones, plague ogryns etc. would also be cool.
as would be a combined eldar/darkeldar force against a slaaneshi army.
or dark angels using a land raider redeemer.
or space marines teaming up with IG.

or anything else that makes sense for a good, fun, variable, fluffy game that sets itself apart from those "small games" that bore the crap out of me. why not add some variety? tha's okay.

get over yourselves. it's JUST a game that's supposed to be fun.

daboarder
02-02-2011, 19:44
And who has even suggested that they would expect to be allowed to use it?



You and every other person who has gotten their nose out of joint in this thread when someone has politely said "No"

for the record I say no I would not play against your non-BA storm raven, its ours not yours its what defines us and makes us unique for the moment.

tell me would you really like to play a BA player who ran thunderwolves? how about you let me take belial and deathwing terminators that way I can run an army with all FNP TH/SS termies...that could be cool. Oh I know how about this, relic blades after all it says right there in the marine codex that ALL chapters have access to them so its only fluffy.

KingDeath
02-02-2011, 20:00
Well, regarding the the op's question. Would you allow to me field a Landraider Redeemer in my Blacklegion army? Or perhaps a Razorback, i always wanted one...and power armour is power armour, isn't it? :)

Emeraldw
02-02-2011, 20:08
Well, regarding the the op's question. Would you allow to me field a Landraider Redeemer in my Blacklegion army? Or perhaps a Razorback, i always wanted one...and power armour is power armour, isn't it? :)

Sure. You want a redeemer? Go ahead. Razorback? eh, sure why not. It isn't THAT unusual. Hell, if you REALLY wanted too, I might let you use the new stormshields and thunder hammers if you can give some great conversion or reasoning why it might be fun.

Personally I would look at them harder if they tried to tell me they had Blood Talons on their Dreadnoughts. THAT is clearly trying to use the best stuff possible. Stormravens to assualt some jetpack or terminator unit? Meh.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 20:11
Hmmm. When my Dark Angel friend wanted to use a Redeemer it didn't take this much discussion, we just tried it. If it had ruined games we would have disallowed it - though this would have probably come from the DA player himself.

I personally think that whatever your position on the subject you can't hold the moral high ground without seeing the other point of view. Like I said before, there is no right answer to whether any 2 players should be allowed to do this or not. If you allow it or not is fine, but you're not wrong. Or right :)

Vaktathi
02-02-2011, 20:23
To be fair, a Redeemer is just a sponson weapon swap on a Crusader for all intents and purposes, which is a much smaller degree of change than the possibilities created by a much faster assault platform that can also carry assault walkers.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 20:27
To be fair, a Redeemer is just a sponson weapon swap on a Crusader for all intents and purposes, which is a much smaller degree of change than the possibilities created by a much faster assault platform that can also carry assault walkers.

Very true, but I'm willing to take the risk :). It also has much more potential in terms of storytelling and cinematic gaming than just a turret swap. Personally I think it is much more appropriate for the Marines than a Rhino or Land Raider, which is why I'm looking forward to seeing it on the tabletop. Ever see We Were Soldiers? Air Cav rules!

AndrewGPaul
02-02-2011, 20:29
You and every other person who has gotten their nose out of joint in this thread when someone has politely said "No"

OK, go back through my posts and quote where I did that.

I seem to remember saying the exact opposite (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5281600&postcount=80) in post #80.

I'll try and use simple words this third time, in the hope that you understand it;

Some people like to play exactly by the letter of the rulebooks and codexes. That's fine.

Some people like to mix things up, and change things. That's also fine.

What isn't fine is either of those people telling the others they're doing it wrong. I don't believe I've done that. Minsc (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5281264&postcount=33), Erwos (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5281470&postcount=59), Gwyidion (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282111&postcount=98), ColShaw (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282305&postcount=104) and PatchOnMyShoulder (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282659&postcount=125) all decided that to use something not exactly as presented in a codex was wrong and possibly cheating. Can you not see how that could be considered an insult?

And breeeeaaathe, Andy. :)

OK, I've made my point three times now. It's probably best I bow out.

PatchOnMyShoulder
02-02-2011, 20:51
What isn't fine is either of those people telling the others they're doing it wrong. I don't believe I've done that. Minsc (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5281264&postcount=33), Erwos (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5281470&postcount=59), Gwyidion (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282111&postcount=98), ColShaw (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282305&postcount=104) and PatchOnMyShoulder (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5282659&postcount=125) all decided that to use something not exactly as presented in a codex was wrong and possibly cheating. Can you not see how that could be considered an insult?


We chose an answer, one allowed in the poll, and defended it. Then got attacked here exactly as Gwyidion points happens when it's done in person. Because you all are of the opinion anything that makes the game more 'fun' should be allowed, as long as more 'fun' is something that lets you take a unit not normally allowed by the rules, and many of the 'Yes' side even take it one step further and explain why that exception should only exist for them and other mix-and-mashes wouldn't be 'fun'.

If you're insulted just because we disagree with you I'm sorry but we can't help you. Our view of the game being more fun when played by the rules then by putting in exceptions to them is equally valid. While it may not be the basement norm, it's the default standard at most events, tournaments, game store settings, and other places where people come to play, and have fun, but not just with their best mates.

Exceptions to the rules should be just that, exceptional. They shouldn't be the norm which is what some people want from the Stormraven in armies it's not actually in.



It's fundamentally what the thread is about though. Are you prepared to allow your opponent to use a non-standard list (ie breaking the normal rules) ?

QFT


My main question for most. Marine armies is: Is there something in the Codex:SM list you MUST HAVE that you can't represent your army from the Blood Angels codex? Is that something Vulkan, for example?

Has anyone yet explained why they can't just use a BA-offical list played as a non-BA chapter? If it's all about 'fluff' like people claim, that would have the exact same end effect, and be totally core rules legal.

Of course if this whole thread isn't really about 'fluff' but is about seeking some gameplay advantage, Power gamers always hide behind a fluff explanation while defending why only their fluff explanation should allow an exception and everyone elses goes too far.

*Looks over the last few pages*

Case in point.



Imperial Guard could easily ally with Tyranids via Genestealer infestation. Would you have a problem if I used Valkyries to zoom my Tyranids fighters across the board? Fluff-wise it'd be a stretch to get Space Marines to ever be able to succumb to that, but what about Orks that looted a Stormraven who subsequently were subjected to a Genestealer infestation?

Fluff is a poor justification for mixing some codexes but not all, because usually anything can be written to justify some combination. Once you start cherry picking the best units out of multiple codexes to play with in a single list, you might as well start using the Apocalypse rules.

Again, it doesn't matter if both opponents in a non-competitive game agree to it, then go nuts. But you can't just dismiss those of us that would like to play by the rules or if the rules are being broken have the same otherwise undeserved benefits as their opponent applied to them as well for even friendly competitive games. Once GW officially allows it, as I expect they might one day not too far off, then fine, again go nuts. Just don't expect some undeserved benefits currently that you aren't willing to extend to your opponent because you are impatient with GWs release schedule. I don't think it's likely, especially as they're going to want to sell more of those models in the future, but it's conceivable GW doesn't intend for non-BA (or soon GK) Marines to use the Stormraven for a long while, and that when they finally do they will print a new Codex for them with revamped point costs or other rule restrictions for other units for the sake of game balance. Afterall, the Blood Angels still can't use Thunderfire cannons or a Master of the Forge, right?

You sir...


The Blood Angels codex in the specific entry for the Storm Raven states that it is used by the Grey Knights, and that while other chapters use other methods like Drop Pods and Land Raiders, the Blood Angels specifically don't cede their mastery of the skies and so employ them despite the reluctance of the AdMech, or simple bureaucratic delay.

In the end, that's the fluff for this unit. Other Chapters besides the Grey Knights don't make use of it, and whatever the cause of delay in implementation of them using it, it is real and defined in the fluff - not just some weird omission on the part of GW and a failure to address why that is the case. One day, that lag may be ended in the fluff and GW may make it available to other Chapters officially. But there *is* reason for why other Chapters don't have it - both rules/game balance wise & in the fluff.

Asking about Genestealers in a Valkyrie is not trolling. Once you start justifying cherry picking units out of one codex to help buff your power or "fun" with another, why should one opponent enjoy that benefit while the other is left at a normal legal amount of power and "fun", and why should one army benefit from being able to do this just because the two army types both wear power armor when the fluff is pretty specific that other marine chapters do not use them yet.

And why the focus on Stormravens? Why not argue about why the Blood angels can't use Thunderfire cannons. How about why the Ultramarines can't use Librarian Dreadnoughts? What about why the Blood Angels can't use a Master of the Forge? How about why Chaos Marines can't use Drop Pods? There are a number of different units in one Marine-type codex that are not in others, a fair enough number of them that seemingly do not have any specific Chapter related restrictions. Or why stop there, how about having a counts as Vulkan He'stan character join a Space Wolves successor?

While they don't do a fantastic job of it, they do try to balance their codexes against each other and internally. Once you violate that internal balance, cross contaminating one codex with units from another, why is it that you consider that fine as long as the armies both wear power armor, but it's not fine when there are justifiable fluff reasons to be able to do other combinations?

...are making...


This is exactly the reason to disallow it unless it's a consenting game where your opponent is fine with it for a non-standard and very probably non-competitive game.

Most of the BA vehicles are Fast, including the Stormraven. What if a non-BA Stormraven is not Fast? It might seem silly as it's essentially a flyer, but it's not out of the question either... the thing might have wings but it's a flying brick, and big like a landraider... it can hold Terminators and is an assault vehicle where most other Marine transports can't.

Long Fangs & Devastators have different point costs and some abilities or equipment changes even though they are more or less the same unit.

A lot of the BA vehicles require you to purchase a searchlight if you want it, but you don't have to, where a lot of other Marines come with it standard as part of the cost of the unit, what if a non-BA Stormraven eventually costs more because it rolls a searchlight into it. It may be trivial at 1 point, but when you get to the point cap, 1 point can make the difference between an extra bit of wargear for a unit or not, and that isn't trivial.

What if the Stormraven gets put in a different Force Org slot than what it is in BA?

These are all things that are possible, and reasons for why its kind of a bad idea to mix and match the codexes. You just assume too much if you think you can simply transplant a unit verbatim from one Marine codex to another - GW clearly sets precedent that is not a valid assumption you can make. Otherwise, why not argue to take your Landraiders in the Ultramarines or Space Wolves codex as Dedicated Transports rather than Heavies for everything and let them Deepstrike to boot? That's not all that much different.

... way too much sense.

Who said you could come to this thread and post logical, fair, balanced points?

Don't you know that the proper way to play 40k is by tossing out whatever rules limit your army from being powerful, and implying your opponent is a stuffy greybeard who can't possibly be playing for 'fun' if he follows the rules?



The real problem with cross-codexing, and in this specific case, using a non-BA stormraven is illustrated in the few preceding posts to this.

The problem is when someone shows up for a game expecting to be able to use a SR in a non-BA (and soon non-GK) list, being denied by an opponent, and subsequently in any way making their prospective opponent feel like an a**hole for simply wanting to play by the rules.

It happens with forgeworld all the time. Guy comes down to the store, with a list with FW, looking for a game. I say "i prefer to use only GW codex units", and should we play, I get mutters, comments, and the conversation on our table and with neighboring tables the entire time revolves around the use of FW units in games and I get crap for doing nothing but wanting to play a simple game of 40k by the rules.

Any game which is not a tournament game (i.e., the outcome matters for nothing but bragging rights) is a 'friendly'. Asking an opponent in a friendly game to accept non-codex units (forgeworld or non-BA SR) is asking for a favor. Taking that favor for granted or looking like your puppy got kicked through a plate glass window if that favor denied is a ******* move of the highest order.

Mashing codexes together is fine, but you aren't playing wh40k anymore, and playing altered rules in a club is fine, but if someone wants to play by the rules, they shouldn't have to take flak for it. Thats the real problem - when people who just want to play by the rules are made to feel like a**holes for doing nothing but wanting to play by the rules.

Not everyone responding here saying 'Yes' would be a jerk about, but reading most the replies, that is what will happen despite Nezal's excellent points above.

Their is a real sense of entitlement on many of the Yes replies here, which is sad since this actually has less legality in the rules then forge world. GW mostly looks at FW and says 'just for fun', GW actually had a chance to make this legal (using WD), and chose not to yet.

In a non-core rules game if rules are being played loose for fun (and your opponent can be loose with them to and enjoy that fun too) by all means go for it. You aren't playing 40k anymore then beach volleyball is indoor volleyball, but it's close enough and fun in it's own way.

By the default rules of 40k though you pick from your Codex, and the norm should never be to make people feel bad because they like the rules. If I meet a stranger and want to play and have fun, I shouldn't have to know what's not in the books he wanted so made up. The game has enough balance issues without player made exceptions.

Yes breaking the rules is sometimes creative.

It's usually munchkinism, especially when it's "Here is the reason only my side should be able to do it".

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 21:06
Too bad the norm isn't to take people at face value until proved otherwise, and instead is to assume the worst and presume guilt with no evidence.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 21:15
Too bad the norm isn't to take people at face value until proved otherwise, and instead is to assume the worst and presume guilt with no evidence.

Seriously. And, since SC were mentioned, I flat just don't use them. Neither do the people I play with. We prefer to have our own army leaders, whether they are just generic dudes or our own DIY Characters. And, contrary to popular belief, I am not a power gamer.

That's the big issue I have with everyone who's said 'no'. Most of them have actually said, 'no, I won't allow you to, you power gamer.'

terradax
02-02-2011, 21:25
In apocalypse: Yes, regular game: No.
BA don't have access to LS Storm, The Techmarine Cannon (name?) and/or the Ironclad.

IMO it would be like a Daemonhunters army fielded a Valkyrie with their inducted IG (before the SR rumor that is...)

SM players will just have to keep whining, play BA or wait until it becomes available for their codex (which I hope won't happen).

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 21:29
This is wrong. Bloke "Can I use a SR in my Salamanders list tonight?"
Other bloke "Not really, I kind of like playing whats in the books, much like you probably like to experiment."
Bloke "Okies, I'll catch up with you when I have a codex army then if thats ok?"
Other bloke "Yeah, great". No accusations of cheating, no accusations of rule breaking. One hobby from two different perspectives, living side by side.

And if that's all it is, then that's great, both potential competitors showed respect to each other, and went their separate ways when it was clear they wanted something different from the game.

That's fundamentally no different than talking to your opponent before hand about whether you want a game to be highly competitive or very fluffy and potentially not very competitive, and figuring out a compromise if possible, and if not politely looking for someone else to play.

I like my games to follow the rules and I usually like them as competitive as possible (which isn't to say I wouldn't play a fluff game ever, but I like my opponents to bring hard as nails lists so I can too and match them against each other) But I have always advocated talking to your opponent before hand to make sure you are both looking for the same thing out of the game, no one wants to wiped because of a fundamental power mismatch in terms of lists, and it's no fun and I think you'd need to be sort of twisted to enjoy doing that to someone. So yeah, if you and your opponent consent to altering the rules, hey it's your game. And as long as when you ask to alter the rules if your opponent does not consent you still treat them with respect, there is no problem.

There's a lot of people in this thread that have shown they would probably be decent like that, on either side. But there have been a few posts that have shown a certain sense of entitlement to do this and additional derision for anyone that wouldn't let them... and I think that's where the problem is coming from.

But as long as everyone's on the same page, and everyone is treating each other with respect and enjoying their experience, do whatever you want. The rules are usually there to adjudicate irreconcilable differences when they pop up as they are want to do, but if all opponents agree to a standard before the game, you get want you want.

PatchOnMyShoulder
02-02-2011, 21:29
mThat's the big issue I have with everyone who's said 'no'. Most of them have actually said, 'no, I won't allow you to, you power gamer.'

Maybe you'd care to take a stab at this then?

"Has anyone yet explained why they can't just use a BA-offical list played as a non-BA chapter? If it's all about 'fluff' like people claim, that would have the exact same end effect, and be totally core rules legal."

Since a current legal way exists to do it.

Unless of course you're not just seeking it for fluff reasons, and you're actually wanting to combine it with rules in your Army that BA's (and soon GK's) don't get when the get SR's. That's seeking a combo, which is seeking an edge, not fluff.

We have a fluff gamer around here who wanted an all CSM terminator army. Pre-new SW codex he had two choices. Play the Deathwing list as a CSM army (back when it was woefully outdated), or ask for a special rules exemption from his opponent and use CSM codex with Cterminators as Troop.

Well, at least in theory he had two choices. He was a fluff gamer but a fair gamer, he was after a fluff theme but not seeking an edge, so without a second thought he got himself a copy of the DA codex and went that route for almsot a year. [It's actually nice he can use the SW codex now or the updated DA one at win a little more since he was a great player]

Players looking for fun and fluff can find ways in the rules, they're usually creative. They tend to handicap not boost themselves. They find ways that are within the rules, because that's what being truly creative lets you do.

Because of that it's usually power gamers that claim they're being 'creative' when what they want is something they can't have. When they want to totally disregard a rule or rules. Especially when they want it only for themselves and want to argue why their opponent shouldn't be allowed the same *looks over the last few pages again*

You can fit fluff into existing rules 99 times of 100 in someway. You can always just use Apoc rules as well. If you're asking for an exception, it usually isn't for fluff reasons it's for gameplay ones, but fluff is always the default excuse. So yeah. I'm skeptical when I hear it. The fluff gamers I know, the truly creative ones, never have to ask me for more then I have seen their army codex so I know which one they're playing rules wise not appearance wise, and occasionally some minor WYSIWYG. It's the power gamers I know that hide behind 'creativity' for an edge, even in friendly games where I just don't get why seeking an edge matters. It's not like any serious player tracks friendly W/L's.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 21:33
Guess some of us are more fortunate with our opponents than others

Anyway, getting off topic. Will be interesting to see how they play.

Wolf Lord Balrog
02-02-2011, 21:35
Maybe you'd care to take a stab at this then?

"Has anyone yet explained why they can't just use a BA-offical list played as a non-BA chapter? If it's all about 'fluff' like people claim, that would have the exact same end effect, and be totally core rules legal."

Yabbadabba answered this question back in post #193 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5283994&postcount=193) of this very thread.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 21:39
Maybe you'd care to take a stab at this then?

"Has anyone yet explained why they can't just use a BA-offical list played as a non-BA chapter? If it's all about 'fluff' like people claim, that would have the exact same end effect, and be totally core rules legal."




Because you don't want Red Thirst, Elite Chaplains, BA Psychic powers, Assault Squads as troops, perhaps your custom named Captain that you put so much effort into converting and painting is armed with a Relic Weapon. Or perhaps your Wolf Lord has one and it is his personal transport. Or maybe you think it'd be cooler if Marneus Calgar leaped out of one to punch an Avatar in the mouth. Wait, that would be seeking an advantage. Anyone who fields Calgar is, clearly, looking for a leg up against Avatars.

And, I made it pretty clear in my first post in this thread that there would have to be certain concessions. Such as, if used with a C:SM army, it doesn't get the 'Skies of Blood' special rule.

And, if your army isn't built around maximizing the potential of the SR, then there is no 'edge' involved.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Wolf Lord Balrog and, apparently by a few pages, Yabbadabba.

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 21:40
Answer 1, 2 and 3 can all be answered with 'Use the Blood Angels Codex'.

Answer 4, please state what difference they REALLY HATE with the Blood Angels? Maybe just choose not to use the Blood Angels signature units and stick to Tacticals, Terminators, Scouts, Assault Squads or all the other things that every Space Marine list has.

Answer 5 may be valid if they had an army heavy on Thunderfire Cannons led by a Master of the Forge. Otherwise, most Marine armies would work with the Blood Angels codex.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 21:45
"Has anyone yet explained why they can't just use a BA-offical list played as a non-BA chapter? If it's all about 'fluff' like people claim, that would have the exact same end effect, and be totally core rules legal."

I can, but then I'm shoehorning the Wolves into a list that doesn't reflect them that well, as not taking the very-BA branded items leaves the BA list pretty thin. I could use Assault Marines as Grey Hunters, will gleefully take Wolf Furisos, but would leave the fast Rhino hulls and Sanguinary Priests and Guard at home. Which doesn't leave very much. Or I could use the list and units I am familiar with, and just add in the SR and be done.

Really, if I was wanting to cherry pick to powergame, I'd take Sanguinary Priests and fast Rhinos/Razorbacks long before I looked at the SR. If I wanted to powergame, I'd far rather have 5 Long Fang missile launchers than a large AV12 hull that has "kill me now" painted across it.

I am doing it for the coolness of the model, and because it scratches that whole "Thunderhawk deployment" itch without needing a $600 model that can only be effectively used in large Apoc games.

So be skeptical, and say, "I'd rather not." That's fine. But if you want to complain about insults, look to yourself and the fact that with stuff like "you're just doing it to powergame" you are telling me that, in effect, I am a liar.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 21:47
I have discovered a very interesting double standard. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5284902&postcount=19)

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 21:49
I also love the irony of "grey/blue/black/green marine counting-as red marine" being offered as the superior option :D

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 21:50
I also love the irony of "grey/blue/black/green marine counting-as red marine" being offered as the superior option :D

You know, the irony had completely passed over my head. Suddenly, this thread is that much more win. :p

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 22:13
I also love the irony of "grey/blue/black/green marine counting-as red marine" being offered as the superior option :D

That entirely depends on what you want out of the game. Some of us like competitive games and those tend to need to be by the rules. Some of you might like Fluff games which aren't so competitive. That's cool too if it floats your boat and is fine with your opponent. For me, yes, the grey/blue/black/green marine counting as red marine is the superior option, and I don't think that is ironic. That won't be the superior option for everyone and I accept that. Some of us are just more interested in the game itself than that it necessarily cleave strictly to the fluff, but as already discussed using a Stormraven with non-BA doesn't exactly cleave strictly to the fluff. For me, if you have Space Wolf models, you are showing a narrative game that is the Space Wolves, regardless of the rule set used to play them, so if you're using a legal BA list that's all painted grey with lots of wolf talismans and wild looking marines... it's the Wolves. Or maybe it's just a wild looking successor chapter of the BA that particular day you play them. Use your imagination.

PatchOnMyShoulder
02-02-2011, 22:27
Really, if I was wanting to cherry pick to powergame, I'd take Sanguinary Priests and fast Rhinos/Razorbacks long before I looked at the SR. If I wanted to powergame, I'd far rather have 5 Long Fang missile launchers than a large AV12 hull that has "kill me now" painted across it.


That's simply arguing degrees of getting an advantage. It doesn't mean you aren't seeking a advantage just because you could find ways you could seek even more of one. If I ask for free flamers in a list that doens't give them, that doesn't make it not power gaming because I could have asked for free 2 wound marines.

Some people are even asking for the SR but also make it clear they think their opponent shouldn't be allowed to do the same and pick outside of their codex.

Asking for something extra can remain fair if the assumption is the opponent can do the same. That is, if not creative (and it can be), at least always interesting.

When it's just for you though, and even though you won't allow the opponent the same advantage you give them a hard time when they say no... tell them they don't play for fun... sorry, that's making it munchkinism. "My fluff exception is okay but your's isn't"? Riiiiiiiight.

People willing to allow the same to their opponent I have no problem with, and people willing to accept no gracefully I have no problem with.

The fact people here get offended it isn't their 'right' to ignore the rules to their advantage while simultaneously denying that to their opponent? Exactly how is that not munchkinism?


I have discovered a very interesting double standard. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5284902&postcount=19)

How so? I make it clear in several ways that was an unconventional storyline game, not remotely one of regular 40k. Beach volleyball there.

It's also something I mentioned long ago here, as it was a scenario I didn't see as a problem because that's not core 40k. This poll isn't about random one off scenarios. It's about in a normal game where other rules stay intact. This is asking for one specific exception, and to many people, a one sided one at that.

If you want to nit pick, when we do storyline games like that around here we have a 3rd player as a GM and often 4th who comes up with the scenario. So it wasn't a munchkin asking for a vehicle not in his list. It was the event writer and GM who gave it to him as an option, and balanced it with the Nids having 3x his point value on the table. It was also technically using more Apoc rules on a small scale then 40k ones.

Someone wanting somethign they can't have in regular games isn't creative. It's juvenile when taken to the degree of making your opponent feel bad because he wants to play strictly by the rules in a core rules game.

No poll would be neccesary if we were asking about one-off scenario games by their nature already require opponents consent because you're not playing core 40k in them.
This is asking in conventional balanced games for your opponents to just humor you breaking the rules to your advantage.

You have two ways you could have gone, one disadvantages you, one disadvantages your opponent. Good fluff gamers pick the first, power gamers want the second.

This is absolutely no different within the rules then having a Necron player ask for a Carnifex, or a Eldar player ask for DE Bombers. (After all, in BFG, their are direct identical equivelants of DE and Eldar fighters and bombers).

PatchOnMyShoulder
02-02-2011, 22:39
Saying you could have asked for a bigger advantage doesn't mean you aren't asking for an advantage. If I ask for free flamers it isn't not an advantage because I didn't ask for free power fists. Especially if I'm saying my opponent can't have the same (which is my main issue here that has me riled up, people saying they should be allowed to pick outside their 'dex but their opponents shouldn't.)

As for double standard, you'll have to explain to me how so.

A one off scenario game with a writer and gamemaster overseeing who choose to give the player that while also giving his opponent 3x his force in a mission not remotely core 40k is entirely different then asking for your opponent to let you have an unfair advantage in a regular game of 40k because you only feel you can only be fluffy if you take the path that gives you the advantage, not taking the disadvantage of using the BA 'dex as other armies. Especially when you then tell them they can't have the same advantage.

One uses a diff. base rules system and still changes it with multiple people to be, sticking with my example, beach volleyball. The other is asking your opponent to allow you an extra player in indoor volleyball, while simultaneously tellign them they can't do the same and they're not playing for fun by not letting you.

[My last reply was too naughty, hopefully this one is acceptable, think I kept most my points intact]

Wolf Lord Balrog
02-02-2011, 22:46
Saying you could have asked for a bigger advantage doesn't mean you aren't asking for an advantage. If I ask for free flamers it isn't not an advantage because I didn't ask for free power fists. Especially if I'm saying my opponent can't have the same (which is my main issue here that has me riled up, people saying they should be allowed to pick outside their 'dex but their opponents shouldn't.)

As for double standard, you'll have to explain to me how so.

A one off scenario game with a writer and gamemaster overseeing who choose to give the player that while also giving his opponent 3x his force in a mission not remotely core 40k is entirely different then asking for your opponent to let you have an unfair advantage in a regular game of 40k because you only feel you can only be fluffy if you take the path that gives you the advantage, not taking the disadvantage of using the BA 'dex as other armies. Especially when you then tell them they can't have the same advantage.

One uses a diff. base rules system and still changes it with multiple people to be, sticking with my example, beach volleyball. The other is asking your opponent to allow you an extra player in indoor volleyball, while simultaneously tellign them they can't do the same and they're not playing for fun by not letting you.

[My last reply was too naughty, hopefully this one is acceptable, think I kept most my points intact]

Who said the opponent couldn't do the same? In fact, I suggested exactly the opposite back in post #103 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291633&page=6) of this thread.

Wicksy
02-02-2011, 22:52
Sure, if i can field thunderwolf cavalry and have grey hunters in my BA army :)

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 22:56
Actually, everyone who's chimed in on what their opponents would or wouldn't be allowed to do has flat said they'd allow their opponent to do the same. Sir, you will have to provide an example of someone saying that their opponent couldn't, even though they could. Because, the entire point of this thread is not 'Would you use a SR in non-BA', it is, as titled, 'Would you play against a non BA stormraven?' To which we've said yes.

Not a single person here has argued why they themselves should be allowed to use the SR, but, instead, why they would be willing to allow an opponent to do so.

And I called it a double standard because, no matter how you attempt to defend yourself, you were still playing in a game allowing an opponent to use a unit from a Codex not their own, which is exactly what you are telling us you wouldn't allow.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 22:58
Saying you could have asked for a bigger advantage doesn't mean you aren't asking for an advantage. If I ask for free flamers it isn't not an advantage because I didn't ask for free power fists. Especially if I'm saying my opponent can't have the same (which is my main issue here that has me riled up, people saying they should be allowed to pick outside their 'dex but their opponents shouldn't.)

As for double standard, you'll have to explain to me how so.

A one off scenario game with a writer and gamemaster overseeing who choose to give the player that while also giving his opponent 3x his force in a mission not remotely core 40k is entirely different then asking for your opponent to let you have an unfair advantage in a regular game of 40k because you only feel you can only be fluffy if you take the path that gives you the advantage, not taking the disadvantage of using the BA 'dex as other armies. Especially when you then tell them they can't have the same advantage.

One uses a diff. base rules system and still changes it with multiple people to be, sticking with my example, beach volleyball. The other is asking your opponent to allow you an extra player in indoor volleyball, while simultaneously tellign them they can't do the same and they're not playing for fun by not letting you.

[My last reply was too naughty, hopefully this one is acceptable, think I kept most my points intact]

Good thing I'm not adhering to this double standard you speak of, as I've stated in this thread, repeatedly, that I'm fine with my opponent doing the same. If it turns out that I feel they are being a jerk about it, then I won't play them again. They are perfectly free to do they same if they feel the same about me. If it's something they don't want to do in the first place, then a simple no thanks is all it takes.

But, once again, you continue to insist that I am doing so for the (WAAC) gameplay advantage. Please stop insinuating that I'm a liar.

Emeraldw
02-02-2011, 23:12
And, I made it pretty clear in my first post in this thread that there would have to be certain concessions. Such as, if used with a C:SM army, it doesn't get the 'Skies of Blood' special rule.

And, if your army isn't built around maximizing the potential of the SR, then there is no 'edge' involved.



I say let them keep skies of blood. You mention it yourself, there is no maximization with the SR in a codex chapter. Blood Angels use it best for a large number of reasons.

Hell, if my opponent wanted to DS his Land Raider, i would probably let him.

Edit: I am a competitive player, there is no denying this. But if they put love into something (like an excellent conversion) and want some rules to reflect that, I don't mind. Further, if it doesn't break the list (and I am paying attention to what that would mean if I allow it) I am ok with it.

But most of the time, it is something usually pretty darn small to make them happy or lead to a more interesting game, I'm all for it.

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 23:35
But, once again, you continue to insist that I am doing so for the (WAAC) gameplay advantage. Please stop insinuating that I'm a liar.

Me personally, I'm not accusing you of anything.

But generally speaking, I'm having a tough time figuring out how if someone is so concerned about the flavor of their army being maintained as defined by its special units in their Codex that they can't represent them using the rules for another Marines army (because it would be horrible to represent Space Wolves which can border on the feral having some form of blood lust "red thirst" rules, right?) they can simultaneously be ok with using one particular unit out of that other Codex that just happens coincidentally to be a relatively powerful unit in combination with things they already have but not available to their normal army.

I just don't understand how that cognitive dissonance doesn't bother people.

WildWeasel
02-02-2011, 23:55
Me personally, I'm not accusing you of anything.

But generally speaking, I'm having a tough time figuring out how if someone is so concerned about the flavor of their army being maintained as defined by its special units in their Codex that they can't represent them using the rules for another Marines army (because it would be horrible to represent Space Wolves which can border on the feral having some form of blood lust "red thirst" rules, right?) they can simultaneously be ok with using one particular unit out of that other Codex that just happens coincidentally to be a relatively powerful unit in combination with things they already have but not available to their normal army.

I just don't understand how that cognitive dissonance doesn't bother people.

Of course, you weren't the one I was quoting, and as I recall, you haven't framed people wanting to use non-BA SRs as lying cheats, so my request there isn't applicable to you.

And the counts-as is a route, and one I'll probably play with at some point as well (Death Company as wulfen, rock). But that doesn't let me clip Bjorn into a SR :).

Or complete my ultimate goal of Force Air Wolf: Logan, Njal, Ragnar, Bjorn, Arjnac, two venerables and 29 Wolf Guard all in three Stormravens, with nine Land Speeders to fly escort for them. All fully painted and modeled, with FW doors and assorted wolf bits on the Ravens, the FW SW venerable for Bjorn, converted up Arjnac, Eagle Warrior shoulder pads on all the Air Wolf Guard, etc. It's going to be 4000 points of awesome and love.

As for the counts-as irony, while it may not be ironic to you, given the current 40K Internet zeitgeist and its rage against codex-flopping counts-as Marines, it is very ironic in general. :)

Nezalhualixtlan
03-02-2011, 01:06
Of course, you weren't the one I was quoting, and as I recall, you haven't framed people wanting to use non-BA SRs as lying cheats, so my request there isn't applicable to you.

I know, I just wanted to make that explicitly clear, that was all.


And the counts-as is a route, and one I'll probably play with at some point as well (Death Company as wulfen, rock). But that doesn't let me clip Bjorn into a SR :).

Or complete my ultimate goal of Force Air Wolf: Logan, Njal, Ragnar, Bjorn, Arjnac, two venerables and 29 Wolf Guard all in three Stormravens, with nine Land Speeders to fly escort for them. All fully painted and modeled, with FW doors and assorted wolf bits on the Ravens, the FW SW venerable for Bjorn, converted up Arjnac, Eagle Warrior shoulder pads on all the Air Wolf Guard, etc. It's going to be 4000 points of awesome and love.

See, that will be awesome. At that point level I would guess you mean it for Apocalypse, and that is a fantastic reason to use the Stormraven with Space Wolves characters because just about anything goes. It sounds really cool.

I'm planning a very similar thing with my own Marines, which will be a homebrew chapter Brotherhood of the Phoenix, but I'm going to be getting a lot of the FW doors and things for my rhinos, landraiders, and storm ravens, except it's going to be the Imperial Eagle ones. It's going to be a combined IG / Marine Apoc force from the Great Crusade era with the Marines having yet uncorrupted Emperor's Children geneseed, and using a lot of the old mark armors. Brotherhood of the Phoenix was the Emperor's Children warrior lodge. But I'm going to have a number of various units in discrete 2k point lists, so you might see and all Terminator 1st company out of Codex SW, and an all Assault 8th Company out of the BA Codex, or a 6th Company all on bikes out of the vanilla Marine codex.

I was even going to have an experimental unit of Necron Pariah "counts as" Void marines who were replicae created (and thus somewhat non-standard mutations) of marines based on a a psychic blank human stock.


As for the counts-as irony, while it may not be ironic to you, given the current 40K Internet zeitgeist and its rage against codex-flopping counts-as Marines, it is very ironic in general. :)

Yeah, but then I'm someone who has always consistently seen codex flopping as fine since it keeps things interesting. And I definitely don't particularly care if someone does that to get a more powerful list, so long as that list is legal within the confines of a single codex, since that's usually what I'm after in a game anyway.

WildWeasel
03-02-2011, 01:36
See, that will be awesome. At that point level I would guess you mean it for Apocalypse, and that is a fantastic reason to use the Stormraven with Space Wolves characters because just about anything goes. It sounds really cool.

Other than taking the SRs as Heavy Supports, it is a fully FOC/Codex legal formation. With left over Troops and an Elite to boot! My local store manager has already claimed dibs on the first game with the full force, against his Daemons. And yeah, it will be extra fun in Apoc, but I would like to use them in more than just the Apoc game that gets played every 4-6 to months, throw in a SR or two here and there as I go, but all in that casual play mode.


I'm planning a very similar thing with my own Marines, which will be a homebrew chapter Brotherhood of the Phoenix, but I'm going to be getting a lot of the FW doors and things for my rhinos, landraiders, and storm ravens, except it's going to be the Imperial Eagle ones. It's going to be a combined IG / Marine Apoc force from the Great Crusade era with the Marines having yet uncorrupted Emperor's Children geneseed, and using a lot of the old mark armors. Brotherhood of the Phoenix was the Emperor's Children warrior lodge. But I'm going to have a number of various units in discrete 2k point lists, so you might see and all Terminator 1st company out of Codex SW, and an all Assault 8th Company out of the BA Codex, or a 6th Company all on bikes out of the vanilla Marine codex.

I was even going to have an experimental unit of Necron Pariah "counts as" Void marines who were replicae created (and thus somewhat non-standard mutations) of marines based on a a psychic blank human stock.


That all sounds pretty awesome. And probably a better use of Pariahs than in the Necron list :D



Yeah, but then I'm someone who has always consistently seen codex flopping as fine since it keeps things interesting. And I definitely don't particularly care if someone does that to get a more powerful list, so long as that list is legal within the confines of a single codex, since that's usually what I'm after in a game anyway.

I have no problem with the codex-flipping either. A Marine is a Marine, and the color/spikeyness level doesnt confuse me when my opponent says, "Hey, I'm using Codex: The Other OTHER Marines."

Azzy
03-02-2011, 02:10
Like I said before, there is no right answer to whether any 2 players should be allowed to do this or not. If you allow it or not is fine, but you're not wrong. Or right :)

Please allow me to disagree with you semantically while agreeing with your overall point. ;)

Personally, I think there are multiple right answers:

Those who wish the adhere strictly to the rules and their own codices are right because that's how the rules are written.

Those who agree to bend or break the rules for mutual enjoyment are also right because they both agree to do so.

I think the only wrong position here is being rude, pushy or otherwise impolite to those that choose not to play the way you wish (regardless of which camp you're in)... You're better off finding a different player of a like mind.

PatchOnMyShoulder
03-02-2011, 03:53
Personally, I think there are multiple right answers:

Those who wish the adhere strictly to the rules and their own codices are right because that's how the rules are written.

Those who agree to bend or break the rules for mutual enjoyment are also right because they both agree to do so.



Was going to log in and get right back into the thick of this but saw this as the most recent post. Fair enough. Ultimately this is the internet and the game is played on tables in the real world anyway. This poll doesn't much matter as it will all come down to each tournament, store, basement, dinning room table, and game room it's played in. A concensus here doesn't say anything as GW gives rip all about player opinion, and it's pretty divided anyway.

On the topic of multiple right answers, I wonder if instead of yes/no/maybe (because answering for the game as a whole is hard, since to some people it's formal and tournament, and some it's apoc and informal to play), it had been a poll of say four or five options. Yes/No to tournament and formal play, with a Yes/No to informal play as well.

I'd imagine then you'd see a lot of 'No' to formal play, and a lot of 'Yes' to informal, as I'd wager by reading what's been written that's how most the 'Maybe's' would split.

Right now the Yes/No camps are dividing along lines because, essentially, this is one game that doesn't have to be one game. GW gives us the ball. We split along our own lines on how we want to play. The pure rules they give us, or changing when we want to, and even amoung players they can go between those camps based on the setting their in, who they're playing, and what they feel like that day. Azzy's right in that no one answer will be 'right'. Much like debating religion, we could argue all day and never be able to techincally prove the other 'wrong' in their setting, just in ours, which doesn't apply, since they're not playing our way they're playing the other way.

Wolf Lord Balrog
03-02-2011, 03:59
Was going to log in and get right back into the thick of this but saw this as the most recent post. Fair enough. Ultimately this is the internet and the game is played on tables in the real world anyway. This poll doesn't much matter as it will all come down to each tournament, store, basement, dinning room table, and game room it's played in. A concensus here doesn't say anything as GW gives rip all about player opinion, and it's pretty divided anyway.

And that's the only consensus we need. Good to see we all ended up on the same page finally. :)

Lothlanathorian
03-02-2011, 05:08
My vote of 'Yes' following Patch's logic should have then been a vote of 'Maybe'. I voted yes because, in a friendly, informal game, I would allow it. In a tournament setting, of course I wouldn't. You play in a tourney, you use what is in your Codex, end of story.

And, not to point fingers or make accusatory statements, but, the example I used of 'double standard (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5284918&postcount=228)' is what I would also use as a very good example of a friendly, story based game using cross-codex contamination to achieve a fun, engaging, table-top scenario. Which, at the end of the day is exactly what I want out of my 40K.


EDIT: I lost my rulebook and am waiting on my replacement, but, someone finally posted this:

Page 2 of the rules-section of the 40K rulebook introduces, quote, "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!"

"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."

hawo0313
03-02-2011, 08:33
following what was said above i concur with maybe

i have read most if not all the arguements and decide that if my opponent chooses to use the stormraven it would be simple to comprimise and find an answer if your looking for a more competitive game against a legal army you dont have to play him of course. but as those who said no have already claimed, why not use the BA codex? this is a question you can ask your opponent is it not? this will sort out the powergamers, from those who want to experiments and those with really great ideas.

In addition from what alot of those in this thread who will use the SR in say a space wolf army have come prepared anyway with a legal list so if its anything to go by its fine if you say no too

senorcardgage
04-02-2011, 14:30
If the dude totally blows and needs a hand, and its in a super-friendly game, then yeah. Otherwise, no way. It's not in your book, so you can't take it. I can't take Bloodthirsters and Bloodcrushers in my Khornate CSM, so you can't take the stormraven.

Of course, if you agree to these kind of changes before a pre-arranged game, then go for it. I was referring more to standard pick-up games and somebody trying to spring it on me at the last second.

bkiker
04-02-2011, 23:20
My answer would be yes for anything other than tournament play.
I want to responded to a few things namely the few people that say this is "cherry picking the best unit."
Really?
Out of the whole Blood Angel codex with all their other toys and special units, the Stormraven is the best.

People that say this would open a can of worms, I'm filling in this part, would undo 40k as we know it.
That's false because it's been done before with a number of players and armies. The best example I can think of is that few people have a problem with players taking stuff from the Codex Marine book: Ironclad dreadnaught, Thunderfire cannon, Landspeeder Storm, etc.
The people that say having one would unbalance an army.
But it doesn't unbalance the Blood Angels? It's AV 12 skimmer. It cannot absorb that much fire power.
Let me put this thought out there for everyone to think over. Why the focus on the Stormraven? Hundreds of threads like this one are popping up all over the place. Again, I point to all the other toys the Blood Angels have. I don't think there's a thread out there for all Marines to have Librarian dreadnoughts.
This is my thought on the matter. The Stormraven is different. It introduces and very different element into the game. Whether the community realizes it or not. I think the 40k community realizes that the Stormraven is different. That it has the potential to be ported to other chapters.
To illustrate, there are no threads, to my knowledge, about Marine or Space Wolves players lusting for the new dreadnaught models coming out. There are no rumors good, bad, or indifferent about all marine armies getting some new dreadnoughts, and the way I see it I would gladly take a Librarian dreadnaught over a Stormraven any day. Everyone instead is talking about the Stormraven. How they want to get one. The rumors that all marines will have have one. The arguments as to whether that's good or bad. I just find that interesting.

WildWeasel
04-02-2011, 23:28
As a Wolf player, I look upon Ironclads and Furiosos with much envy. But when it comes down to it, a Dread is a Dread, whereas the SR is the ability to do a small scale version of the Thunderhawk insert-and-support.