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Asher
01-02-2011, 18:29
...they are the Imperial Guard.

Themed 'counts-as armies' come in lots of shapes and sizes. The most 'controversal' ones are probably counts-as armies that use minis of army A but rules of army B.

There is again great variation withing these. Most numerious of their kind are Marines (like Raptors for example) using rules of the Blood Angels army to represent their assault heavy theme.

Others are more radical like the popular rebel grot armies using IG rules or orks to represent mutant or really tough feral guard.

While each poster's personal acquiescence of either fielding or fighting such army can be discussed at lengths, I'd be far more interessted in experiences with actually fielding and fighting such armies!


Myself I'm fielding counts-as armies of the less radical kind: A Vraks militia army using IG rules and a terminator only BA army using DW rules. The first is less controversal and only the more versed 40k gamers as whether I use IG or FW rules.

The DW count-as is a bit more controversal due to the fact that there actually is a set of BA rules. With this army, I more often have to explain that they are using DW rules and are not a fauly BA army list.


Did you use such an themed army your self? Did you fight one? Which themes or rules/models combinations are cool, which less so?

Lord Damocles
01-02-2011, 20:04
I've run Blood Angels as Dark Angels to get a full Terminator army too.

I also run my Harlequins as either Eldar, or more recently Dark Eldar, with Death Jesters as Trueborn, Great Harlequin as an Archon, Rogue Trader era Harlequins as Wyches and so on.

My semi-aborted Genestealer Cult was going to use The Vraks Servants of Slaughter list.


I don't think that a set of 'rules' can really be applied to counts as armies. I'm generally OK with counts as so long as:
- The background makes reasonable sense - so Blood Angels 1st company using Deathwing rules is OK, while 'my Eldar use Imperial Guard rules so I can have Manticures!' is not so cool.
- The models are reasonably WYSIWYG - pretty self explanatory. My Death Jester Trueborn are modelled with appropriate looking weapons (the Rogue Trader era Bright Lance Jester as Dark Lances, and cut down plastic Bright Lances as Blasters. The Harlequin Wyches all have old school Shuriken Pistols as Splinter Pistols, all the actual Harlequins are strictly WYSIWYG etc.
'This Grot is a Guardsman...' is a problem for me though.


As to the examples given in the OP, I don't know if Grots as Guardsmen would sit well with me (why not just use Codex: Orks with some Forgeworld, again?) nor Raptors as Blood Angels (they have a special character from Forgeworld, and according to IA9 should use the generic Marine list. Also, aren't they more stealthy than FNP assaulty?)

Korraz
01-02-2011, 20:10
I have mixed feelings towards Counts As.

Themed Armies are great. If you want to play a real World Eaters army, Space Wolves rules are a nice fit. Alpha Legion works good as Vanilla Marines. Harlequine, Exodites and Kroot don't have their own rules (any more), but Dark Eldar fit. You can't really play Grot Rebels with the Orkdex and the IG one is a stretch, but as good as it is going to get. New Grey Knights will be good for Custodes and maybe for Sons.
Pick your theme and play it. It's great. After all, the rules are just the skeleton which you decorate with your theme.

Now, what REALLY grinds my gears are the liars. "Yeah, I'm playing a total Khorne army. Oh, yeah, that is my Counts-As-Runepriest. He wills his power into being by his Khorniness." "Blood Angels fit Death Guard so good. Yeah, they have jump packs and this guy here is my demon prince, counts-as Mephiston. Yeah, he is only as big as a usual Marine." "Yup, I'm playing Pre Heresy Thousand Sons. That's my Storm Raven, although they didn't had those, back in the heresy." (Another thing that annoys me. If you want to do a pre-heresy army, do it PRE-HERESY, not Yeah-Heresy-Is-Kinda-Going-On-Currently.)

You want those codex for the power. Don't shame real players of that codex or people that really have a theme and stick to the restrictions it brings with it. You are the guys that give Counts-As a bad name. You are responsible for these hate-wars.
Admit it and stand by it. You want the rules, it's not about the theme. If the next PA-Codex is stronger, you will take that one and claim that it fits your theme so much better. Stop that.

I have absolutely nothing against taking a codex for its power. It's your money and your freetime, after all and if the models represent the usual ones well enough, there shouldn't be an issue at all. There's nothing wrong about it. Just be frank and say that you will break with your "theme", whenever it fits your plans for the list and it gives you more punch.

dingareth
01-02-2011, 20:28
I run my Iron Warriors as Space Wolves, my Vrakaxian Miliatia as Imperial Guard, and my Dark Mechanicus as Witch Hunters. So, yeah I'm a fan of counts as. It's all painted, all WYSIWYG, and I've yet to play against a single person in real life, over 10 states and just as many GTs that have had a problem with it. Seems like the only people who care are on the internet trolling Goatboy's BoLS articles.

And I'll be straight with people- the Chaos book is underpowered and boring, Space Wolves aren't. I don't see why I should handicap myself because I like a certain look to my models.

the1stpip
01-02-2011, 20:39
Having faced Proteus' Rebel grots on a number of occasions, it really makes no difference, it is obvious what is what.

However, I have also fought his AdMech army (Codex Daemons) and though very nice, it can be difficult knowing what is what (especially whjen I don't know half of what they do anyway).

Grimtuff
01-02-2011, 20:45
- The background makes reasonable sense - so Blood Angels 1st company using Deathwing rules is OK, while 'my Eldar use Imperial Guard rules so I can have Manticures!' is not so cool.


This.



As to the examples given in the OP, I don't know if Grots as Guardsmen would sit well with me (why not just use Codex: Orks with some Forgeworld, again?)

and this. There is a certain individual round these parts who seems to do nothing but counts as armies, and the part that winds a hell of a lot of people up? The choice of codex. I've said my piece on his Grot Rebellion army many times and the crux of the issue (as with his Ad Mech Robot things which uses the Chaos Daemon codex, even though the Necron codex is more appropriate for the theme) is there is a perfectly serviceable Ork codex yet these Grots (BS4 ones no less as they're Vets) have completly inappropriate stats and have a nonsensical "funny" story to explain their existance.

Round peg, meet the square hole that is 40k. Thoiugh this won't stop many people from jamming it in there.

MalusCalibur
01-02-2011, 20:56
Personally, I'm fine with people doing this if it's obvious that a lot of effort has gone into it. The 'classic' example, the Rebel Grots, would be fine if I saw (like Proiteus's army, for example) conversions and character in everything. Less so if someone was just using stock Gretchin models and Ork vehicles with Imperial Guard rules.
It comes down to reasoning, really - if someone wants to use a codex not neccesarily belonging to the models they have just because the rules are stronger, that's bad form, but if its for the purposes of a theme and they actually put the work in to show that, then I'm all for it.

AlexHolker
01-02-2011, 21:06
I've said my piece on his Grot Rebellion army many times and the crux of the issue (as with his Ad Mech Robot things which uses the Chaos Daemon codex, even though the Necron codex is more appropriate for the theme) is there is a perfectly serviceable Ork codex yet these Grots (BS4 ones no less as they're Vets) have completly inappropriate stats and have a nonsensical "funny" story to explain their existance.
The Gretchin Revolutionary Committee are official canon, and have been since before Grots got reduced to Strength and Toughness 2 in 3rd edition.

Slazton
01-02-2011, 21:06
Between friends and I can see your unit choices and list before we start the game to get a tactical feel then yes you can play the army...When it's just you and your mates, you can do things like that.

GT legal or even a Games Night at a local? I would say no because you're not using what was intended for your army. Iron Warriors as Space Wolves is a cool concept, however, the Codex was designed for the space puppies and your army would either have to reflect a space puppy model army or it will count as its parent codex.....That's how GW is.

I say for fun yes and for actual 'serious' gaming, then No.

impala
01-02-2011, 21:09
I like well-done "counts as" armies. I like looking at a Codex and trying to re-imagine it as something else.

Trick
01-02-2011, 21:10
I've run Blood Angels as Dark Angels to get a full Terminator army too.

Me too, I have a fairly decent Angels Vermillion 1st Company detachment to go alongside my other successor chapters where I can use a squad or two, or all of them in Apocalypse. When I want to use them on their own (and I can't wait too with the updated DAngels FAQ) I use the Deathwing rules.

As has been said, this sort of 'counts as' is fine because the Blood Angels also have a 1st Company who will, on occasion, fight as a single entity. So long as my opponents know that I'm using Marine Codex A instead of Marine Codex B there is never an issue.

I think I (and I imagine my circle of gaming friends) would take more offence to something more extreme like an Empire Battalion rocking up with Ork-like strength and brutality or Chaos Marines ditching their power armour so they can hitch a ride in a Raider with the Dark Eldar rules!

So long as the army looks similar to how the rules will represent it, I have no problem.

Trick

Vaktathi
01-02-2011, 21:11
GT legal or even a Games Night at a local? I would say no because you're not using what was intended for your army. Iron Warriors as Space Wolves is a cool concept, however, the Codex was designed for the space puppies and your army would either have to reflect a space puppy model army or it will count as its parent codex.....That's how GW is.

I can't recall a tourney ever now allowing an army because of something like this as long as the list is legal and the army is painted.

dingareth
01-02-2011, 21:15
I say for fun yes and for actual 'serious' gaming, then No.

Well then, you may want to let Adepticon, BOLScon, NOVA, Mechanicon, and Da Boyz know that they're not serious gaming.

Wait, you may have a point about that last one...

Grimtuff
01-02-2011, 21:16
The Gretchin Revolutionary Committee are official canon, and have been since before Grots got reduced to Strength and Toughness 2 in 3rd edition.

And are also confined to a certain backwater planet called Gorkamorka, which they cannot leave and being unable to leave is the entire reason for their existence.

Thud
01-02-2011, 21:28
It's a hobby, not a straight-jacket.

As long as it's not incredibly confusing to play against*, I will let my opponents get away with absolutely anything in the 'counts-as' department.

*This would be something like saying: "this flamer is a meltagun, but that flamer is a plasmagun, and the flamer over here is a Basilisk."

Lockjaw
01-02-2011, 22:09
I haven't done a 'counts as' army until I started on my chaos sisters, they're SOB models, converted with more mutations and less imperial symbols, and as of now will possibly use a word bearer's or chaos undivided list.

my orks army I had heavily converted, but aside from my bugboys (hardboys), none of them are really 'this is really a marine' proxies

I'm okay with counts as lists, if it's a look or theme your going for, or alot of conversions.

DoctorTom
01-02-2011, 22:33
If you're using squats, you pretty much are forced to do a "counts as" list. ;)

faithinanarchy
01-02-2011, 22:44
I have a Zoat themed army that i field as Nids for gaming purposes with heavily converted Zoat models representing various Nids montrous creatures like hive tyrants and canifexes.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280745&highlight=zoats
I also use Squigs as Genestealers, Grots as Termaguants and giant squigs as Tyrant Guards and now have my eye on the new plague toads and curious to see if i can fit them in.

I like themed count as armies are a great way of showcasing some awesome conversions and originality to an army. I think 40k could do with a few more races or at least a dogs of war style codex that allows different races to ally with different armies. Would be a good way of bringing squats back in one squad at a time. Seems to me, for a galaxy that big there should be a few more races to play with.

I've seen a pretty cool mechincal Nids 'count as' army that had servitors as termaguants, acro-flagullents as stealers, nightbringers as Hive tyrants and drop pods as the big spore pod thingy. There were a variety of big dreadnoughts as trigons and mawlocs from other modelling companies and overall was a well themed army representing another.

as long as a player plays by the rules and explains what he/she is using, i think its a great addition to the game.

Lord-Caerolion
01-02-2011, 22:56
a terminator only BA army using DW rules.

But you're using an army that has its own codex! Using anything else means you're nothing but the dirtiest of power-gamers, who'll do anything to win!

...There, that's the sarcastic frothing rant out of the way, no need for anybody else to do the same.


I'd be a massive hypocrite if I said it wasn't ok for you to use the lists you mentioned. As others have said, as long as stuff is recognisable as what it's supposed to be, and no, I do not count colour scheme as a valid point there. A blue Marine is a blue Marine, regardless of Chapter, or even loyalty. Of course, you'll have to do some good explaining as to why your Ultramarines have Obliterators if used that way, but it's possible to explain it.

AlphariusOmegon20
02-02-2011, 00:07
And are also confined to a certain backwater planet called Gorkamorka, which they cannot leave and being unable to leave is the entire reason for their existence.

True, but IIRC, the Rebel Grot idea preceded Gorkamorka's release, as I remember facing a few Rebel Grot armies in 2E.

GrogDaTyrant
02-02-2011, 00:13
There is a certain individual round these parts who seems to do nothing but counts as armies, and the part that winds a hell of a lot of people up? The choice of codex. I've said my piece on his Grot Rebellion army many times and the crux of the issue (as with his Ad Mech Robot things which uses the Chaos Daemon codex, even though the Necron codex is more appropriate for the theme) is there is a perfectly serviceable Ork codex yet these Grots (BS4 ones no less as they're Vets) have completly inappropriate stats and have a nonsensical "funny" story to explain their existance.

Round peg, meet the square hole that is 40k. Thoiugh this won't stop many people from jamming it in there.

I have no comment on using Daemons over Necrons to represent Ad-Mech (Necrons would certainly be my pick), but the Rebel Grot enthusiasts have a growing history of utilizing IG to represent their army. And much of that reason is simply because the Ork codex ISN'T very serviceable for them. Using nothing but vets? Meh... that is a bit dubious to me. But a well converted, sharp-looking grot army that is easily recognized as IG codex, is nothing to scoff at.

The Ork codex doesn't allow for such grot-only lists, and in fact tends to penalize a player for even attempting something like it. The players I know that run a grot-army off of the Ork codex (stubbornly, might I add), still use heavy amounts of 'count-as' conversions. Mostly to add some punch in the form of Mega Armor, Lootas, Nob Bikes, etc.. And even then, they say it can be an excruciatingly difficult army to play with.

jack da greenskin
02-02-2011, 09:55
Depends. If someone goes out and collects a rebel grot army, purely to use guard rules, then I am definitely all for it. Nice theme, nice conversions, allowed them to do something different from the 50 trillion cadian armies you see around.

If, however, I see someone with an ambiguous army, using vanilla marine rules, then swap to space wolves when that powerful dex comes out, then trial it as GK in march, then swap to whatever the latest powerful codex is, then I think it's wrong. You arent having that army for the fun moddelling prospects, you are using it because it stops you from having to buy 50 different armies and remain ultra-competitive. I wouldn't refuse to play, but it would annoy me. A lot.

Wishing
02-02-2011, 11:37
The Ork codex doesn't allow for such grot-only lists, and in fact tends to penalize a player for even attempting something like it. The players I know that run a grot-army off of the Ork codex (stubbornly, might I add), still use heavy amounts of 'count-as' conversions. Mostly to add some punch in the form of Mega Armor, Lootas, Nob Bikes, etc.. And even then, they say it can be an excruciatingly difficult army to play with.


This comment has reminded me of goblin teams in blood bowl. For those who don't play, blood bowl has two team lists (goblins and halflings) that are blantantly underpowered compared to most other teams, and this being completely acknowledged and intentional. Yet lots of people play them, simply for the fun of playing the scrappy, whipping-boy underdogs of the game.

I guess it takes a lot more work and resources to build a 40k army than a blood bowl team, plus the atmosphere of the game is different, so it is somewhat understandable that players who make the effort want an army that is strong and competitive. But I still wish that the blood bowl spirit was more present elsewhere - that building an all-goblin or gretchin force would be something you do for a laugh and for something different, not something you do if you want to win lots.

Thud
02-02-2011, 12:01
But I still wish that the blood bowl spirit was more present elsewhere - that building an all-goblin or gretchin force would be something you do for a laugh and for something different, not something you do if you want to win lots.

Constantly losing without a real chance of winning gets boring pretty fast. And spending 10 and a couple of hours on converting and painting to do it in Blood Bowl is significantly different from spending 300 and countless hours on doing it in 40k.

Wishing
02-02-2011, 12:22
True, and in blood bowl you also have the advantage that winning is about scoring goals and not about beating up the enemy, even though doing the latter makes it easier to do the former. I still think that the blood bowl approach is worth remembering once in a while, though.

the Goat
02-02-2011, 12:50
It's a hobby, not a straight-jacket.

As long as it's not incredibly confusing to play against*, I will let my opponents get away with absolutely anything in the 'counts-as' department.

*This would be something like saying: "this flamer is a meltagun, but that flamer is a plasmagun, and the flamer over here is a Basilisk."
The problem with your system is everybody has a different definition of "incredibly confusing to play against."

I would even take it a step further and say: you should not model your army so that is it incredibly annoying to play against. I absolutely hate trying to play a game where stuff is proxied and over converted to be "counts as".

the Goat
02-02-2011, 12:57
The Ork codex doesn't allow for such grot-only lists, and in fact tends to penalize a player for even attempting something like it.
As it should! A grot only force would not be competitive or survive very long in the 40k universe. That is why it doesn't exist in the codex or in the fluff (the exception on Gorkamorka is unique and would not successfully scale up to 40k battle sizes).

Chem-Dog
02-02-2011, 13:25
The DW count-as is a bit more controversal due to the fact that there actually is a set of BA rules. With this army, I more often have to explain that they are using DW rules and are not a fauly BA army list.

Not really, it's the only way to create a Terminator Army. That thing has it's own tactical advantages and disadvantages. You're just using "Red Deathwing"



I can't recall a tourney ever now allowing an army because of something like this as long as the list is legal and the army is painted.

There was a post on this forum some time back where the OP was told by a tourney organiser his "Counts as" SW wouldn't be allowed, they were heavily themed to either Rats or Bears (I can't remember which) but, yeah, at least one admittedly apocryphal instance.



As long as it's not incredibly confusing to play against*, I will let my opponents get away with absolutely anything in the 'counts-as' department.

*This would be something like saying: "this flamer is a meltagun, but that flamer is a plasmagun, and the flamer over here is a Basilisk."

QFT
These are two very different uses of the "Counts as" clause though.
X models in Y army counting as Z unit is fine because it's more to do with building a cohesive force whereas Gun A counting as Gun B in Unit C but not in Unit D is all about proxying weapons.
For example: My renegade IG army has a vast array of weapons that stand in for Lasguns, Autoguns, Muskets, a Crossbow and any number of mashed up hybrid "Rifles" complete with as many variable versions of lasguns as I can manage. This is because it reflects the background of my army (they're all scavengers who will loot anything they can use) and allows me to have a unique looking very rag-tag army BUT in every instance where the weapon's nature is significant there is a verry recognisable weapon represented. Grenade Launchers are tweaked but all have the drum mag seen on the Cadian GL, flamers are varying in source (Cadian, SM and Catachan) but all obviously flamers and the weapons held by officers are all wysywyg with Boltpistols, Laspistols, Plasmapistols, CCW's, Power Swords and Powerfists all shown as exactly that.
Modeling and theme fun without unnecessary confusion.


the Ork codex ISN'T very serviceable for them.

I've seen it done quite well before now, Grotz in the Troops choice mean it's usually a simple matter of thinking up a suitable theme for the rest of the units that aren't grotz.



I would even take it a step further and say: you should not model your army so that is it incredibly annoying to play against. I absolutely hate trying to play a game where stuff is proxied and over converted to be "counts as".

But there're varying opinions on what's annoying ;)
If the owner of a painstakingly converted Tau Empire as Kroot Merks army set up in front of you with Kroot as Kroot, Kroot with wings as Vespids and Kroot in armour as Fire Warriors what's the problem?

Wishing
02-02-2011, 13:34
As it should! A grot only force would not be competitive or survive very long in the 40k universe. That is why it doesn't exist in the codex or in the fluff (the exception on Gorkamorka is unique and would not successfully scale up to 40k battle sizes).


While I agree in principle, as with the blood bowl thing, FW at least has been moving in a direction of making specific grot tanks, making an all-grot theme seem more viable. If grot units has decent guns and are sufficiently cheap, a horde of them supported by a tank fleet seems like it could work. And new fluff can always be added, if GW want a larger-scale grot uprising in the fluff, they will make it so. :)

GrogDaTyrant
02-02-2011, 16:38
I've seen it done quite well before now, Grotz in the Troops choice mean it's usually a simple matter of thinking up a suitable theme for the rest of the units that aren't grotz.

Yeah, I have too.

Currently if you want to *attempt* to make a Grot army from a pure Codex: Orks, you get Grots, Big Gunz, and Kans. Two of those vie for the same spot in the list. Warbuggies/Trakks and Koptas can make for an easy 'count-as' due to Twin-Linked. Everything else is pure counts-as, until you add FW rules and grab Grot Tanks. You're also capped at 180 grots from your troops, which only sets you back 720 points. Far from ideal for a swarm of revolution-crazed Grots.

And since IG have a similar distaste for combat, have a strong WW2 Soviet theme (which the Grot Rebellion shares), and a means to run buckets of infantry at a staggering potential of 100+ from a single Troop choice, it makes sense. Where players go one step beyond, is when they make everything Veterans, field Air-Cavalry, run them as Chimera-spam with Leafblower, etc. The best IG Grot armies will primarily utilize Infantry Platoons, and loads upon loads of them. And it works great.

Grubnar
04-02-2011, 13:00
1. When the new Ork codex was (finaly) published I suddenly found myself in possesion of several Imperial Guard vehicles that had been heavily konverted to be used in an Ork army but no longer had an army list entry (no, Looted Wagon does not count!).
This, combined with literally hundreds (dont ask) of old second edition plastic gretchin made for a very fun count as Imperial Guard army. I specially like the Night Goblin Commisars!!:D
As long as you can understand that grot=human everything else is WYSIWYG.
I think that is the key issue with all "count-as" armies.

2. Before the new Space Wolves codex, I sometimes used the Dark Angels Deathwing rules to field an entire army of Wolf Guard Terminators.
I think this is something EVERY space marine chapter should have the option of doing. It is strange that the most famous battle involving Terminators is the heroic last stand of the Ultramarines 1st company during the battle for Maccrage (sp?) but it is impossible to re-create useing the current rules.

3. A friend of mine now uses the Space Wolves codex to fied his World Eaters chaos space marines. He usually takes 2+ wolf priests (Skull Champions) to make the Berzerker squads :evilgrin: (Grey Hunters) fearless. Then he adds some Juggernauts (Thunderwolves), Terminators, Bloodletters (fenrisian wolves) or vehicles as he sees fit. And this way he can use drop pods!!
As I have a Space Wolves army myself, I understand the rules and know what is what, and since we are both useing the same rules there is an added level of fairness IMHO. It makes for some fun battles.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 16:08
This comment has reminded me of goblin teams in blood bowl. For those who don't play, blood bowl has two team lists (goblins and halflings) that are blantantly underpowered compared to most other teams, and this being completely acknowledged and intentional. Yet lots of people play them, simply for the fun of playing the scrappy, whipping-boy underdogs of the game.

I guess it takes a lot more work and resources to build a 40k army than a blood bowl team, plus the atmosphere of the game is different, so it is somewhat understandable that players who make the effort want an army that is strong and competitive. But I still wish that the blood bowl spirit was more present elsewhere - that building an all-goblin or gretchin force would be something you do for a laugh and for something different, not something you do if you want to win lots.


Constantly losing without a real chance of winning gets boring pretty fast. And spending 10 and a couple of hours on converting and painting to do it in Blood Bowl is significantly different from spending 300 and countless hours on doing it in 40k.


True, and in blood bowl you also have the advantage that winning is about scoring goals and not about beating up the enemy, even though doing the latter makes it easier to do the former. I still think that the blood bowl approach is worth remembering once in a while, though.

I always figured it had more to do with the Loonies and the ability to throw a grot with your troll as a pass play.

Thalenchar
04-02-2011, 16:29
I couldn't care less.

Use what you want, as long (as mentioned) it is clear what you use.
One of my friends is currently modelling a Grot Rebellion army, using IG rules, and I can't wait for him to finish enough stuff so we can play a game.
Another friend of mine has a extensive Ork army and, while he usually plays his games using the Orks Codex, he has this past year used a force filled with Deff Koptas as an Eldar Jetbike army. And I love playing against it.
Even I do it, to a certain extent. Having played for a fair amount of years already, I have accumulated a pretty decent force of Marines over time, in the colours of my own design. There's about an even mix of Loyalist and Regenade marines in there, I think. And whenever I feel like having a battle, I grab whichever marine codex I feel like using, make a list, choose the appropriate models (meltagun = meltagun, etc, etc), and off I go. I do this for friendly games and for tournaments as well. I can honestly claim I don't play Vanilla Marines, BA, SW, Chaos Marines or DA. I play marines of every persuasion and I have yet to meet an opponent who will tell me I can't use my marines as <insert random Marine codex> because they aren't the right colour.

Eldoriath
04-02-2011, 18:22
I have a Army of Fallen that use the DW rules seeing it's the most appropiate since the number of terminators I own for the force outnumbers the ordinary marines by more then 2:1. And those marines was only bought as to test the army concept using the chaos codex instead.

Also, very slowly WIP on a LatD army that I'm going to use the ork codex for seeing that the old LatD 'dex is hardly official/legal anymore (at best used for friendly games where I will use it instead of orky codex). Most fitting rules to represent mutant mobs, looted imperial vehicles and suchlike. They can even have some hardened chaos terminators to lead them!

Max1mum
05-02-2011, 11:15
as long as the army is wysiwyg in tournament settings then i'm cool with. A marine in blue armour or green armour is still a marine. And i'm under the interesting impression that i can beat anybody anyway. So i don't care if they play something for more power. When i'm a tournament that's fine with me. In the end, at a tournament it's about the tournament rules, if the judges are cool with it, i will try and beat it into a box. If the entire army is exeptionaly well converted and/or painted i will even get that person a bear(or tee, or coffee...or what ever).

In friendly play i care even less, because its just that : friendly play.

if getting upset about somebody else his/her interpertation of the hobby is worth it : Get help.

Clang
05-02-2011, 20:37
If my opponent brings out a counts-as army, I'm usually perfectly happy so long as:
- it's obvious what everything (both figures/vehicles and their weapons) counts as. Grot with a rifle counts as a basic IG - fine by me. Grot with a rifle counts as a Khorne Berzerker - not fine.
- everything is appropriately sized. Dreadnought counts as a carnifex - fine (presuming the weapons also made sense). Dreadnought counts as a Land Raider or a Necron warrior - not fine.
I love a counts-as army where the player has made a decent effort to make believable counts-as models for each unit, and has the fluff to back it up. I'd be delighted to play against a rebel grot army made up of Deffskull / Blood Axe grots who have stolen and looted their own equivalent of an IG army - seems perfectly fluffy to me. And i have no problems with one chapter of marines using a deifferent chapter's rules, subject to the above limitations - surely there will be individual battles/campaigns where e.g. the BA decide to fight SW-style, and vice versa.

But breaking many of the above rules results in what I'd call a proxy army. Your rhino counts as a stormraven? - fine for a casual game with friends but not anything serious.