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Malorian
02-02-2011, 20:17
Horde Formation vs Horde Army


A while ago I got into an argument about running ogres in horde. I think it is obviously better to run them in huge blocks, and others were telling me that itís stupid and you get more out of having more units.

During times like this the only way to deal with such things is to put up or shut up.

As it so happens one of my coworkers knew another gamer that lived in my apartment complex and we got together for a game. He played Orcs and Goblins (so he was automatically my friend) but still hadnít played a game of 8th yet.

Now whereas you might think that is a bad thing, it automatically popped into my head as the best thing given the situation. I was a 8th ed vet who was addicted to horde, and he was a 7th ed player who was all about lots of units.

After taking some time to explain the new rules to him we set up for a 2500 point gameÖ


My list:

Tyrant w/ tenderiser, greatskull, ironcurse icon, mawseeker, heavy armor
Slaughtermaster w/ grut's sickle, wyrdstone necklace, dispel scroll
Bruiser BSB w/ great weapon, heavy armor, rune maw
24 bulls w/ banner, bellower
20 bulls w/ FC
3 ogres

Total: 2498


His List:

Black orc warboss w/ Akk'rit Axe, the Kicking Boots, Best Boss 'At, heavy armor, shield, boar
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor
Lvl 2 night goblin shaman w/ 5 magic mushrooms
Lvl 2 night goblin shaman w/ itty ring

25 savage orcs w/ extra handweapons, full command
25 orcs w/ 2 choppas, FC
25 orcs w/ 2 choppas, FC
30 night goblins w/ nets, FC, fanatic
30 night goblins w/ nets, FC, fanatic
10 arrer boyz

20 black orcs w/ FC
8 hoppers
2 chukkas
Wolf chariot

3 trolls
2 pump wagons

Total: He said a bit over 2500, but no big deal


We played just a regular pitched battle to keep things simple.

The board was 5X4 (kitchen table FTW!) and there was a charnel pit on my left flank, a woods in the middle of my deployment zone, tower of blood in the left flank, a hill in the center of the board, and a river in the right corner of his deployment.

I deployed from left to right: 20 bulls w/ BSB and 3 bulls behind, *woods*, 24 bulls w/ tyrant and slaughtermaster.

He deployed from left to right: arrer boyz, hoppers, chariot, orcs, savage orcs, pump wagon, orcs, pump wagon, night goblins w/ shamam, black orcs w/ general and BSB w/ trolls in front, night goblins w/ shaman, chukkas behind the river.

He won first turn.


Pre-Game Thoughts:

I really wish I had brought my camera because it was a neat thing to see, his deployment went from board edge to board edge with all those units, and I mainly just had two massive units.

It was a good move of him to have that woods in the middle of my deployment as it just perfectly meant that I didnít have room to place both hordes on one side. I guess I could have started on in the woods and move out but I didnít want to take any chances with what kind of mysterious wood it would turn out to be.

Since I was so vastly outnumbered there wasnít going to be much to this game, basically I wanted my two hordes to move up and form an arrow head near the middle of the board and take things on as they came.

One thing that did worry me is that his army, even though a 7th ed version, was still set up to be aggressive and deal out a lot of attacks, so I could end up taking more losses than I planned onÖ


Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity makes the arrer boys move up but since they are at an angle they just bump into the hoppers, and the right night goblins squabble. Stupidity is passed.

Everything moves up with the hoppers moving to the flank (and tower of blood).

Since the one shaman canít cast heís down to one. I stop one spell and then let him cast gaze of gork which does no damage.

Shooting kills 1 ogre on the right.


Turn 1 Ogres:

Stupidity is passed and I move up as planned however thanks to moving around the woods Iím not as arrow shaped as I would have liked (in fact Iím nowhere close).

In the magic phase I make my right unit +1 toughness and subborn and he stops the rest.


Turn 2 Orcs:

He declares his Waaagh!!! and most of his units move up. Stupidity is passed.

The wolf chariot, left orcs, and savage orcs charge my left block, and the right orcs, trolls, and black orcs charge my right block. We then realize the hoppers are frenzied due to the tower of blood and they charge into the flank of my left block (he probably would have tried that charge any way but itís funnier when they do it because of frenzy).

Pump wagon move around in the back and the night goblins units shift behind his lines.

In the magic phase I scroll mork wants ya on my tyrant (didnít want to take the chance) and stop the rest. We did have one odd thing though because while he tried casting Mork wants ya on my right unit he rolled a double 2 and micast as per the greatskull, however in the current rules that doesnít mean a fail. As I understand it, it would go like this:

-He casts and sees he has a miscast
-I stop it with the scroll
-We resolve the spell (no effect since it was stopped)
-And then apply the miscast

The miscast only made the shaman loss a wound so really no big deal but we werenít sure if he was suppose to suffer the miscast in the first place, so if any of you have a thought on this then please share it.

Anyway since my only unit out of combat was the 3 bulls, and the arrer boyz were out of range, we went straight to the main event.

The combat on the left was a total blood bath. Impact hits killed an ogre, blocks killed another 3 ogres, and hoppers (now out of range of the tower and thus no frenzy) kill 2 more (damn hoppers). In return I kill 4 hoppers, 5 orcs, and 3 savage orcs. That means I lose by 8!!! I break and Iím ran downÖ until we realize we had forgotten about stomp. Stomp kills 2 savages and 2 orcs, so I lose by 4 and hold thanks to the BSB reroll (thank god!).

On the right side things go a lot better thanks to the +1 toughness plus characters. My tyrant fights the orc champion and kill him several times over. I lose 5 ogres overall but I kill a troll, 5 black orcs, and 3 orcs, and then stomp kills 2 more black orcs and an orc. I lose by 2 and hold.


Turn 2 Ogres:

The three bulls start moving around to the left flank.

In the magic phase I give the left unit regen, and after he stops me from healing myself I give the right unit +1 strength (hehe, I love the sickle).

In combat I realize he needs to take fear tests and the left orcs fail. He kills 2 ogres on the left and I kill 2 hoppers, do a couple wounds to the chariot, and kill 5 orcs and 3 savage orcs, and then stomp kills 2 savage orcs and 3 orcs! Woot! I win combat and everything breaks and I run down the savage orcs.

In the right combat he refuses my challenge and I move his general to the back. +1 strength turns out to be a game winner as I kill 1 more troll, 7 orcs, and 4 black orcs while losing 2 more ogres and a bit as well as a wound on my slaughtermaster stomp kills a few more and I win combat buy a good amount. Trolls and black orcs break but the orcs get insane courage and hold (note that this still means the black orc BSB and banner are killed).


Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing.

Hoppers run off the board, chariot rallies, left orcs rally, troll keeps running, and black orcs rally.

Pump wagons slam into the left ogres and both shamans are now in the left unit while the right one moves up to block my ogres, and the arrer boys move up.

In the magic phase he goes for broke and cast mork wants ya on my slaughtermaster (who was currently 2 wounds down) using all his magic mushrooms. He gets irresistible force and rolls a double (we were unsure if that means two rolls on the miscast table or just one, but either way one miscast killed the shaman) and even though he did enough wounds to kill me I am saved by my 5+ ward to have 1 wound left. I stop his other spell.

In the shooting phase the arrer boyz do 1 wound to my unit of 3 ogres.

In combat the regen saves me and he only kills one ogre on the left, and then I smash one pump wagon and run the other one down, which panics the arrer boyz off the table and I run into the rallied orcs. The other combat obviously also goes my way and be breaks but gets away as I end up just in front of his black orcs.

Turn 3 Ogres:

Right ogres charge the black orcs which triggers the fanatics, and between the two of them I lose 5 wounds. The left ogres reform to face the 1 wound chariot (might as well).

In the magic phase I get off the spell to heal myself but roll a 1 and kill myself (doh!).

In combat I donít issue a challenge and he doesnít want me to rack up overkill against a champ so our generals are facing each other in base to base. He does 2 wounds to my tyrant and I kill him. Other wise other attacks do 1 wound to my tyrant and kill an ogre, and then I kill a handful of black orcs through attacks and stomp, break them, and run them down. This panics BOTH units of night goblins and so my opponent throws in the towel.

Victory to the Ogres!


Post-Game Thoughts:

That second turn was really scary, and with a bit worse dice rolling for the break test things would have been very different.

Although his separate units did a lot of damage to me there is no doubt that if things were horded together he just simply would have done better (more attacks = more wounds).

Having two units the size of army books about 6 inches apart really didnít leave him much of a flank to hit, and if it wasnít for that woods I could have just deployed on one side and made it even harder. In fact Iím wondering now if I should have just done that anyway and risked the woodÖ mehÖ knowing my luck it would have been a poisonous thicketÖ

Point denial worked out as I only gave up points for the lost slaughtermaster even though he killed enough to wipe out several medium sized units.

In the end my opponent had a mix of amazement and disappointment in 8th. He thought seeing ogre units that big was awesome, was impressed with how much of a punch they had, and was even looking forward to hording up his own army, but at the same time was sad to see the old ways go. Pretty much how I felt when I first started playing 8th.

In the future I promiced to use nicer lists, but he said he didn't want me to go easy on him and to bring my best because he was going to do the same. Stay tuned to see how that turns out ;)

Thanks for reading :)

Seabo
02-02-2011, 22:25
Ogre Errata 1.2 says that Greatskull counts double 2s and 3s as a roll on the Miscast Table but not double 1s.
I would've thrown in the towel seeing 40+ Ogres in 2 massive Hordes like that.
Grats on the win :)

Malorian
02-02-2011, 23:01
Yup, just double 2s and 3s, but that's all I need :)

Still not sure on those rule questions though...

Djekar
03-02-2011, 07:08
Sounds like a great game. I think he might have even had you if he would have had some more magic defense to stop the buffs that you were throwing on those (to use a vaul-ism) severely depleted ogre hordes. A good showing for a first 8th ed. game, I hope you get to play against this newfound friend more often!

One curiosity is: why did the warboss not accept the challenge? I mean, he looks like he is tooled up to take on all comers and while I'll grant that fighting a tyrant might look like long odds from his perspective, it probably would have gone better than just being sent to the back and hanging out waiting to die. If you just want the leadership, get a bunker and a naked Orc Warboss and it's still cheaper than that single "Fighty but chicken" warboss.

Malorian
03-02-2011, 13:27
Sounds like a great game. I think he might have even had you if he would have had some more magic defense to stop the buffs that you were throwing on those (to use a vaul-ism) severely depleted ogre hordes. A good showing for a first 8th ed. game, I hope you get to play against this newfound friend more often!

One curiosity is: why did the warboss not accept the challenge? I mean, he looks like he is tooled up to take on all comers and while I'll grant that fighting a tyrant might look like long odds from his perspective, it probably would have gone better than just being sent to the back and hanging out waiting to die. If you just want the leadership, get a bunker and a naked Orc Warboss and it's still cheaper than that single "Fighty but chicken" warboss.

The sickle really helps.

"Oh look I'm out of dice, guess magic phase is over..."
*Stabs an ogre*
"Oh wait I have another dice!"
*evil grin*


The tyrant racked up a TON of overkill in the first challenge and so he didn't want another champ to die doing the same thing, and he really didn't want to lose his general.

TsukeFox
03-02-2011, 18:13
Yay "vaul-ism"!
But really should have taken the challenge with the war boss. maybe try for more flank charges, hard though with the arrow formation of your ogres. Frontal assualts on things larger than your units may not Always go well, more so with so many attacks coming back.
Thanks for the report!!

Ulke
03-02-2011, 19:49
Great and bloody game!

In my group we play with the ETC tournament rules: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=81485

So cant really horde that many ogres myself :(

SevenSins
03-02-2011, 20:09
ncie one. There really is something to the amount of room an ogre horde takes, splendid! (and next time remember that camera)

grumbaki
04-02-2011, 05:56
Glad to see a written report! It'll be interesting to see whaat his next list looks like.

Edit: Just realized that this was my 1000th post. Glad to have had it in one of your threads!

andyg2006
04-02-2011, 18:54
I really enjoy all your reports, thanks for posting these.

Re. rules question, I guess it comes down to: Is "Mork wants ya" cast on a 4, or not?
I though the idea of miscast in general was that....unless you get IF...it means you fail to cast (i.e. greatskull gives the same "spell = failed to cast" as if the caster had got a double 1, but just also using different numbers).
I think that's the way it's intended to be (because that's the way miscasts worked when the OK book was written), but I guess it's different if people want to be "letter-of-the-law" about stuff, or do different tournies where you could get different answers to the same question, = dunno, sorry.

Re. multiple combats where some flee and some stay, I never realised that the winning unit could still chase down and kill some of the losing enemy units if it doesn't move at all ('cos it's still tied up in combat by something else which...by definition...is still trying to kill them)..?
Learn something new every day, thanks for this.

Malorian
04-02-2011, 19:01
Re. multiple combats where some flee and some stay, I never realised that the winning unit could still chase down and kill some of the losing enemy units if it doesn't move at all ('cos it's still tied up in combat by something else which...by definition...is still trying to kill them)..?
Learn something new every day, thanks for this.

No, I only ran down units when every one breaks.

The new thing in 8th is that you can only run down one unit, but if you are locked in combat (like when the orcs got IC) then you can't chase.

andyg2006
04-02-2011, 19:13
Sorry - d'oh, banners died, not units. <facepalm>
Must...drink...more...coffee...
Keep forgetting about fleeing banners dying...useful to keep in mind. Thanks!
Even if they never won anything, Ogre hordes = <shudder> (lol).