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jack da greenskin
05-02-2011, 21:47
I'm currently making an IG army, and I intend to use it at local tournaments and levels above that where possible.

The army is slightly themed towards a city fight force, with rubble and road bases etc.

Now I really really like the look of IG vehicles with dozer blades. They look awesome, and they fit the theme to boot. I don't really feel I need dozerblades on my 4 vehicles game wise, they are mostly of the sit down and shoot variety.

So, in a serious game, if I turned up and said "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades, none of my vehicles have dozer blades." Would you let it fly? Do you think anyone would cause a fuss? Should I magnetize to be on the ultra-safe side?

jennings3
05-02-2011, 21:53
I wouldn't of thought people would have a problem, but, there are those people out there (they know who they are...) that would argue.. But I wouldn't worry..I certainly wouldn't have a problem, quite the opposite, dozer blades are ace!

riotknight
05-02-2011, 22:01
I'm currently making an IG army, and I intend to use it at local tournaments and levels above that where possible.

The army is slightly themed towards a city fight force, with rubble and road bases etc.

Now I really really like the look of IG vehicles with dozer blades. They look awesome, and they fit the theme to boot. I don't really feel I need dozerblades on my 4 vehicles game wise, they are mostly of the sit down and shoot variety.

So, in a serious game, if I turned up and said "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades, none of my vehicles have dozer blades." Would you let it fly? Do you think anyone would cause a fuss? Should I magnetize to be on the ultra-safe side?

Magnetize them, people will look for any excuse to score you lower in tournaments. And non-WYSIWYG is a big reason to.

insectum7
05-02-2011, 22:06
^I second that.

jack da greenskin
05-02-2011, 22:08
Magnetize them, people will look for any excuse to score you lower in tournaments. And non-WYSIWYG is a big reason to.

Okay. It'll only be on 4 vehicles so it shouldnt be too hard.

But in reply to your comment, would an army of oop models get lowered? I'm doing praetorians :/

riotknight
05-02-2011, 22:20
Okay. It'll only be on 4 vehicles so it shouldnt be too hard.

But in reply to your comment, would an army of oop models get lowered? I'm doing praetorians :/

Usually not. Anyone who did, it can usually be argued to the organizer, I've only heard of one case where someone did this, and it was because the model was from RT era and no one recognized it. I don't even remember what the model was, just there was all sorts of rage about it.

jack da greenskin
05-02-2011, 22:26
Usually not. Anyone who did, it can usually be argued to the organizer, I've only heard of one case where someone did this, and it was because the model was from RT era and no one recognized it. I don't even remember what the model was, just there was all sorts of rage about it.

Not too bad then. Thanks. They're a labour of love more than anything else, I just went meltavets and vendettas because it'd need less models and I wanted a gamey army this time around.

FashaTheDog
05-02-2011, 22:35
First of all I want pictures! I haven't seen a full Praetorian army in many years and I sadly lack the minis for more than a squad. Second, riotknight, I've had that happen with a few of my models where folks asked what company made those minis. One time someone even said I should really only use GW minis but they'd let it slide. The models I remember falling into this category are one of my Eldar Avatars (the original one), the old plastic Guardsmen, some of my Genestealer Hybrids including the Magus, a few of my older Chaos models (both 40K and Fantasy), a Fantasy human sorceress (she came with a blue dragon but I use her as a Necromancer), and oddly enough the Forgeworld Ogryn Berserkers, especially the event model.

SamaNagol
05-02-2011, 23:24
If none of your vehicles have dozer blades, yet are modeled with them, that is fine.

If 2 of your vehicles have dozer blades but all are modeled with them, that is a problem

FashaTheDog
05-02-2011, 23:26
Couldn't he hang a small sign over the two not in use that read "Out of Order" or "For Decorative Use Only" in that case SamaNagol?

Murrithius
05-02-2011, 23:30
First of all I want pictures! I haven't seen a full Praetorian army in many years

They do look awesome. 2 members of my club have fully painted 2k infantry Praetorian lists! Wish I had the forethought to do that!

SamaNagol
05-02-2011, 23:32
Really, for anyone with a brain, as long as the different tanks are visibly different in terms of markings or such, then you can just tell yourself which has dozer blades and doesnt. But in tournaments you will come across people who do not have fully functioning brains or fully formed social skills

Angelust
05-02-2011, 23:37
Magnetize them. Or just pay the twenty some odd points for them and use em.

Clang
05-02-2011, 23:45
Yes, if you haven't assembled them yet, make the extra effort and magnetise them - they're one of the easier things to magnetise (so long as you do it during construction), as the magnet connections are conveniently under the vehicle if you need to hide any mistakes.

Otherwise, telling an opponent before deployment that "my IG have run out of hydraulic oil, so all the dozer blades are nonfunctional and have no game effect" should cover you fine.

Mini77
05-02-2011, 23:47
I played at a tournament last year where there was a guard player fielding a Praetorian army. Not only did nobody object they actually came away with Best Painted for them.

the Goat
06-02-2011, 00:47
So, in a serious game, if I turned up and said "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades, none of my vehicles have dozer blades." Would you let it fly?

Yes I would certainly have a problem with you proxing your dozer blade equipped tanks for non-bladed tanks. Either pay the extra points for the modeled equipment or assemble the models without them.

As for using Praetorian models? I can't imagine how that would ever be an issue. The vast majority of my armies are OOP models (my IG are medal Cadians and Catachans from second edition 40k).

neko
06-02-2011, 02:31
Hell, I'm doing all my tanks up as walker tanks, and I'm still paying the premium for rough terrain mods even though I could now use the excuse "do these look like 'dozer blades to you?"
To have my walkers tanks have no benefit walking through rough terrain just seems wrong, no matter how much I'd prefer to save the points...

unheilig
06-02-2011, 02:47
... or be super cool and buy the dozer blade upgrades even if they aren't efficient.

So you pay a few points to have cooler looking vehicles, sacrifice a drop of competitiveness for coolness, man.

That would certainly result in some extra soft score points from me!

lijah_cuu
06-02-2011, 11:47
I can't see the problem in you doing this - by having the blades on you aren't making it harder to hit them or modelling for advantage. I would make sure that your opponent is absolutley clear that they aren't there!
You can pick up magnets really cheaply from ebay and so on. You will also find it a hell of a lot easier to fit them into your carry case!

If you have already put them together I think it would be stupid to go out and spend over 100 to redo 4 tanks for the sake of someone having a hissy fit over it - Just make sure you are clear from the beginning!!!

DYoung
06-02-2011, 14:45
So, in a serious game, if I turned up and said "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades, none of my vehicles have dozer blades." Would you let it fly? Do you think anyone would cause a fuss? Should I magnetize to be on the ultra-safe side?

I wouldn't have an issue with you saying "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades" but I would have an issue with "These tanks that don't have dozer blades actually DO have dozer blades"

Thoth62
06-02-2011, 14:59
I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I also have a couple rhinos with the dozer blades magnetized.

Bunnahabhain
06-02-2011, 15:38
Magenetise if you can. It saves trouble with a certain group of people, and makes them easier to transport all the time. I wish I'd done so with all of mine...

I wouldn't have a problem with it myself, but know the type who do...

FashaTheDog
06-02-2011, 16:15
Everyone here keeps telling him to magnetize. If these are already assembled, which I suspect they are, how is he suppose to tear them apart without ruining the attachment? Those two little hooks are going to snap no matter what he does. Then magnetizing it will make the armature look silly. It doesn't look too bad it you never glued the dozer blade in and just have the empty hooks, but having two round "bumpers" like some sort of train is going to be silly looking.

dingareth
06-02-2011, 17:24
Magnetize the whole assembly to the bottom...

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2011, 17:47
As with most WYSIWYG violations, the general rule is "don't take the Mickey." Yes I'm fine with you saying "all my tanks have dozer blades on the model but I didn't pay the points so they don't have them." Happens to most of us, even with tournament lists "Oh this guy with a powerfist doesn't have one, didn't have the points for it." But keep it simple. "This guy actually has a lascannon, and these tanks have hunter killers, this tank has a dozer blade but these identical tanks don't" is the sort of thing that will annoy your opponents.

LonelyPath
06-02-2011, 17:55
On my IG vehicles I've left the actual dozer blade piece itself loose. Once undercoated they slot onto the support (the part under the tank) well enough so you don't need magnets.

FashaTheDog
06-02-2011, 20:28
Magnetize the whole assembly to the bottom...

Oh good idea. So simple I completely missed that.

carlisimo
06-02-2011, 20:54
If none of your vehicles have dozer blades, yet are modeled with them, that is fine.

If 2 of your vehicles have dozer blades but all are modeled with them, that is a problem

What he said. But I wouldn't give a perfect score in a tournament because it IS a violation of WYSIWYG and I'd have to remind myself once or twice during the game that the dozer blades don't count. I'm not talking about major points off; it'd be like an A- instead of an A.

Ulrig
06-02-2011, 22:13
I think they look better with the dozer blades. I have mine in my renegade army done the same way. I plan on having them on the model, but declaring they are not actually there. I flat out think they just look better that way.

kargenetic
06-02-2011, 22:50
I personally wouldn't care, but I know some guys who would. If you have the time/money, magnetize to be safe. If not...meh. Put 'em on there.

igotsmeakabob!!
07-02-2011, 06:37
I wouldn't mind if you pointed it out previous to the game... just so long as you aren't saying that "these vehicles which don't have blades DO have them." Then it can get annoying.
Having them on for aesthetic purposes is fine.

Col.Gravis
07-02-2011, 09:35
I played at a tournament last year where there was a guard player fielding a Praetorian army. Not only did nobody object they actually came away with Best Painted for them.

Judging from your location, that might be the 40k Team Tourny? If so not quite best painted, that went to a Marine army, but it was part of the team which got the Best Painted Team award.

Still, having taken my Praetorians to quite a few tournies up an down the UK I find they are more likely to draw positive attention then to be critised as being OOP, though be prepared for the fact it does happen from time to time.

Mini77
07-02-2011, 10:03
Judging from your location, that might be the 40k Team Tourny? If so not quite best painted, that went to a Marine army, but it was part of the team which got the Best Painted Team award.

That was it. Still, you should have won best painted. :p

the Goat
07-02-2011, 12:33
Still, having taken my Praetorians to quite a few tournies up an down the UK I find they are more likely to draw positive attention then to be critised as being OOP, though be prepared for the fact it does happen from time to time.

Could you enlighten up as to why some people have a problem with you using second edition Praetorians? Is it simply some people don't realize the models were in fact sold by Citadel Miniatures?

I am really curious because most disputes I can see both sides. But in this case I really don't see the problem.

Bunnahabhain
07-02-2011, 12:39
^^^ Because some people are stupid. Simple as that.

Tokamak
07-02-2011, 13:42
Non WYSIWYG is a lack of courtesy in my opinion. If you like how it looks, pay the points for it.

Easy E
07-02-2011, 13:51
Is it wrong of me to think that this topic even coming up over "Dozer Blades" is a sad commentary on what has happened to the GW Culture?

magath
07-02-2011, 14:14
Anyone who has a problem with this needs a hard slap.

As long as your consistent and don't change your mind through a game (which, lets be honest, you won't), then it should be fine with most rational people.


Is it wrong of me to think that this topic even coming up over "Dozer Blades" is a sad commentary on what has happened to the GW Culture?
I think your bang on the money. Its a sad state of affairs when we're arguing that someone "lacks courtesy" or "Like the upgrades then pay the points". When the hell did we all loose the idea of fun and become so bloody legalistic?

Aluinn
07-02-2011, 14:23
Judging from your location, that might be the 40k Team Tourny? If so not quite best painted, that went to a Marine army, but it was part of the team which got the Best Painted Team award.

Still, having taken my Praetorians to quite a few tournies up an down the UK I find they are more likely to draw positive attention then to be critised as being OOP, though be prepared for the fact it does happen from time to time.

How could anyone complain about Praetorian models? I mean, they're official GW models which have all the proper IG weapons and everything. That would be ridiculous to take issue with.

The dozer blades, on the other hand ... well, I'm inclined to say just pay the points for them. They aren't that expensive and, sure, you want to optimize your list, but it's doubtful that it would ever make a difference in the final outcome of a game. At least, I would just use them, personally.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be annoyed with anyone doing what the OP suggests. It's just that it would be nice if WYSIWYG actually happened from time to time :). (It is a better game, IMO, when models do what they look like they ought to be capable of.)

Tokamak
07-02-2011, 15:41
Is it wrong of me to think that this topic even coming up over "Dozer Blades" is a sad commentary on what has happened to the GW Culture?

Not wrong at all, you clearly want something else out of the hobby than I do.

jack da greenskin
07-02-2011, 16:59
Non WYSIWYG is a lack of courtesy in my opinion. If you like how it looks, pay the points for it.

I'd say some non-wysiwyg is a lack of courtesy. "These heavy bolters are heavy flamers actually, it says so in my list" might irritate me slightly. But a dozer blade is different I think, it's almost more of a thematic attachment, and the rules on it arent too useful.

As I said before, they fit the cityfight theme, and it'll be on 2 russes that remain stationar and 2 chimeras.

I might magnetize, I normally like to do things like that to give me options (magnetized the arms on my stompa), but unless I can get it to sit perfectly flush I fear it wont look very good. One model is built and painted with it on, one painted without it on, another built and I'm considering putting it on, and a final unbuilt.


Is it wrong of me to think that this topic even coming up over "Dozer Blades" is a sad commentary on what has happened to the GW Culture?

Maybe. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it, as its completely different to the counts as/these actually are issue. But it boils down to whether I want this army to be a really nice looking project, or the army I intend to use for tournaments I plan on entering. I actually want it to be both, so thats why I asked.

PatchOnMyShoulder
07-02-2011, 23:23
If ALL your vehicles didn't have dozer blades, I would be okay with it. Only 1 easy simple thing to remember, None of your vehicles use the rules Period. I'll remember that midgame.
Even in a tournament I would be mostly okay in that case (assuming you behave like a decent player once the game starts).

If even ONE of your vehicles in your list had them, even if not one of the specific type with the modeled-but-not-on, I would have some problem.
In a tournament absolute no go. Outside of a tournament/ranked game I'd be somewhat more accepting but it would mainly then depend on if I knew you, and what I knew of you. Twinking munchkin? Try again. Fun guy to play who doesn't care win or lose? Cool go for it. Somewhere in the middle? Play it by ear.

Inquisitor_Eljer
07-02-2011, 23:55
I'm currently making an IG army, and I intend to use it at local tournaments and levels above that where possible.

The army is slightly themed towards a city fight force, with rubble and road bases etc.

Now I really really like the look of IG vehicles with dozer blades. They look awesome, and they fit the theme to boot. I don't really feel I need dozerblades on my 4 vehicles game wise, they are mostly of the sit down and shoot variety.

So, in a serious game, if I turned up and said "These dozer blades aren't dozer blades, none of my vehicles have dozer blades." Would you let it fly? Do you think anyone would cause a fuss? Should I magnetize to be on the ultra-safe side?

I'd personally have no problems with it, but an additional suggestion is for you to magnetize the dozer-blades so you can add them or remove them as wanted / needed.

neko
08-02-2011, 00:43
Is it wrong of me to think that this topic even coming up over "Dozer Blades" is a sad commentary on what has happened to the GW Culture?
I can't help but wonder for which side it's a sad commentary on:
- Those who are so desperate to optimise their lists that they refuse to pay a few points to make their army cool.
or
- Those that refuse to bend on a couple of negligible items just for the sake of following "the rrrrruules!"

Personally, I'm tempted to say both :shifty:

Bunnahabhain
08-02-2011, 00:54
It's worth noting that due to the chronic over-costing of lots of these options, if you pay for all the modelled on upgrades, it's not a few points it's costing you, it's a few units.

I have some camo nets on most of my tanks- some are just a few strips round the barrel, some are largish nets folded up. I also have spare track link, wheels, and fuel cans on most of them. If I pay for camo nets and extra armour, that is 35-40pts a tank extra. On a 55pt chimera, right...

I don't mind paying for searchlights- they honestly are 1pt each, so across the army, that means a sergeant loses his melta bombs or such like. However, losing a half a platoon to pay for modelling? That is a bit much.

jack da greenskin
08-02-2011, 17:39
- Those who are so desperate to optimise their lists that they refuse to pay a few points to make their army cool.


I'm not desperate to optimize my list. I want to collect and play the list I've made and look forward to enjoying.

4 tanks, 10pt dozer blade each. That's 40 points, forcing me to drop my officer of the fleet, a lovely model I look forward to painting and using. #

As the guy above me said, it's a overcosted upgrade thats useless in the role I want them for. 10 pts, to reroll difficult terrain 1/6 of the time? Most of these tanks wont even be driving.

I think I've decided and I'm just going to stick them on, apologize to anyone who has a problem, but enjoy making MY models for MY hobby.

Hakar
08-02-2011, 17:55
but enjoy making MY models for MY hobby.

This is a fine attitude, up to the point where you get to play a game with ANOTHER person.
Off course, this particular issue is somewhere at the lowest possible end of annoyances. Imagine if these were hunter-killer missiles we were talking about.

RayvenQ
08-02-2011, 18:16
I'd be perfectly fine with doing what you suggested, as long as you were consitant throughout the game about what they were.

Though the last time i built a chimera, the dozer blades seemed to slot on and stay on quite easy without glue or anything.

Easy E
08-02-2011, 19:50
This is a fine attitude, up to the point where you get to play a game with ANOTHER person.

I agree. The next version of this games needs a solo play option. :)

Shaneimus Prime
08-02-2011, 23:23
As has been said already, as long as you were consistent then I would have no problem with you saying that "these dozer blades aren't dozer blades.".

If it were to be in a tournament situation however then it would be different, WYSIWYG seems to be very important here.

But hey, casual game = no problem.

neko
09-02-2011, 01:47
I'm not desperate to optimize my list. I want to collect and play the list I've made and look forward to enjoying.

4 tanks, 10pt dozer blade each. That's 40 points, forcing me to drop my officer of the fleet, a lovely model I look forward to painting and using. #
In other words, "I'm not optimizing my list, I'm just optimising my list!"
You don't have to drop the OotF, you could drop 40pts from elsewhere. Instead you're refusing to drop 40pts from anywhere other than the dozer blades, which are the suboptimal option.


As the guy above me said, it's a overcosted upgrade thats useless in the role I want them for. 10 pts, to reroll difficult terrain 1/6 of the time? Most of these tanks wont even be driving.
As I've already stated, I'm know how much they cost because I'm in the same boat - every single tank in my army has dozer blades (including the artillery). In my last battle that was 80pts.
If anything, I'd have an even easier time not paying the points cost for them as mine are being modelled as walker tanks (aids on traversing rough terrain) rather than physical dozer blades. Instead I'll happily pay for them being a little suboptimal because the The Cool is worth it.


I think I've decided and I'm just going to stick them on, apologize to anyone who has a problem, but enjoy making MY models for MY hobby.
They may be your models, but keep in mind that the games are just as much your opponent's as they are yours. Hell, I'd personally have no worries bending to ignore your dozer blades, but I'd still give your opponent the moral high ground if they did refuse.


Off course, this particular issue is somewhere at the lowest possible end of annoyances. Imagine if these were hunter-killer missiles we were talking about.
Fortunately they're easy to magnetise, so I usually start the game with a lot of empty launch rails.

PostinDirty
09-02-2011, 03:10
man, i'm glad the tournaments i play here don't care about such frivolities

the Goat
09-02-2011, 13:06
Anyone who has a problem with this needs a hard slap.
Seriously?! You are advocating physical violence because somebody has a problem with you breaking the rules?

As long as your consistent and don't change your mind through a game (which, lets be honest, you won't), then it should be fine with most rational people.
I consider myself rational and I am not fine with your take on the subject. What is so hard about paying the correct points for something you choose to glue onto your model?

I think your bang on the money. Its a sad state of affairs when we're arguing that someone "lacks courtesy" or "Like the upgrades then pay the points". When the hell did we all loose the idea of fun and become so bloody legalistic?
It is clearly an issue of common courtesy when one player chooses to show up to a game with an army list that violates the rules. Just because you disagree with a rule doesn't mean you can ex parte rule that it doesn't apply to you.

Here is an example of what you are advocating: What if I think a choice in my codex is over costed (say tyranid pyrovores). But I really like the models. I also don't want to play an uncompetitive list. So I arbitrarily decide I will pay ten less points per model when I point out my army. Then I go down to my local store and ask some random player for a game. When I deploy my pyrovores on the table I announce, "I paid less points for these models then it says in the rules."

If the random other player has a problem with that am I allowed to give him a "hard slap" as you specified above?

Captain Semper
09-02-2011, 14:50
WYSIWYG looks like a straight forward rule on paper and easy to abide to. Just model what you pay for in your list and thus convey the message to your opponent without any nasty surprises during gameplay. But in the real world it could be quite difficult to adjust...

Say you face an opponent that has a nicley and fully painted 1500 pts army that is WYSIWYG and tells you that this particular sergeant has a power weapon instead of a power fist (so that the points limit will not be exceeded for example). Will you then walk away from the table in disgust saying this opponet doesn't show you courtesy? I think (hope) not. Obviously a lot of your goodwill will be dissipated if there is a "grey" half-finished BA army represented by Eldar stand-ins and counts as...

So there is a qualititative element there. If the opponent's army is generally straight forward well painted and (dare I say it) fluffy I think people will let go for the minor WYSIWYG inconsistencies and will start rolling dice... Which brings me to the quantitative element. Even a visually well presented army (seen by many as a courtesy to their opponents) will not be enough if the inconsitencies are too many. People that are perfectly happy to look the other way for a minor character upgrade will not necessarily tolerate, say, multiple changes in specialist units equipment that will be both confusing during gameplay and take away from the suspension of disbelief.

So I beleive there is a wide range of "grey" area between qualitative and quantitative factors and the optimum point differs on the individual. Oh! and something else: this is a game of plastic minis being glued together at some point. The ability to change afterwards is not necessarily easy and could jeopardise the integrity of the model. One can choose an upgrade because its a really cost effective upgrade in a specific version of game/codex. What if this is no longer the case in a later version? It's OK to have an extra marine model with different load out but what about a Lehman Russ?