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Mjod
09-02-2011, 23:19
Ok this is something me and my friends have argued back and forth. Are Chapter Masters pretty much allowed to choose what ever weapon the damn well feel like?

I know that Logan Grimmnar weilds The Axe of Morkai which in the description states "Thrums with the power of the warp." Marnius Callgar uses the Gauntlets of Ultrimar which Robute Guilliman defeated a champion of chaos to get. I have yet to get a chance to read IA 9 & 10, I am still waiting on mine, The Tyrants claw worn by Lugft Huron well before his revolt and subsicquin decliration of being Excumatus Terratorus. These are the cases I can find clearly defined in the fluff.

I fully understand that the inquistion has in all reality very little oversight over the Marine Chapters but where is the line at which they put there foot down.

Scalebug
09-02-2011, 23:47
Hmm... The Axe Morkai "thrumming with the power of the warp" is nothing I've seen before, must have been added in the latest codex then...

That fuzzies the issue somewhat, but really, the weapons are not Daemon Weapons, they are lost tech Dark Age of technology artifacts, that just happened to have a champion of the chaos gods as the previous owner, before they were taken as trophies and ended up in the armoury of the Space Wolfs/Ultramarines.

A lot of ritualized cleansing and beltsanding down of spiky pits, and off you go, one funky dual-mode axe, or pair of awesome gloves for Avatar-slapping.

Hurons claw... dunno, it seems if was chaosifyed after he became a chaos champion, along with the rest of his armour. I have not read pt II of the Badab War book, but there have not been any indication previously that the Claw should have something to do with his fall. That pet of his is the usual suspect.

Son of Morkai
10-02-2011, 00:37
Axe Morkai started as a daemonweapon, before it's owner got killed by the Wolves, who melted it down and reforged it into its current form.

BASICALLY, yeah. They claimed it's a relic of the chapter, so it's ok for them to use it!

Scalebug
10-02-2011, 00:46
But where does it say it was a Daemonweapon?

Hellebore
10-02-2011, 01:47
But where does it say it was a Daemonweapon?

In the 2nd ed codex it was explicitly stated to be full of the power of Khorne on the wargear card describing it. Its rules were similar but not identical to how an Axe of Khorne actually worked. This may not have meant it was a weapon possessed by a daemon, but it was certainly full of Khornate power.



The Axe Morkai was taken by Space Wolf Commander Logan Grimnar from a defeated Champion of Khorne, and it is imbued with the brutal power of that bloodthirsty god. The Axe was reforged by the Space Wolves' Iron Priests and engraved with the two heads of Morkai, guardian wolf of the Gates of Death.


So in the above quote from the original source of the Axe Morkai, it still possesses Khornate power within it. Even the reforging didn't change the fact that 'it is imbued with the brutal power of that bloodthirsty god.'

This whole idea of 'Dark Age Technology' weaponry has only really surfaced recently. The original description of the gauntlets of ultramar in the 2nd ed codex (pg72) said that they came from a source unknown but were won from a champion of chaos by Guilliman.

I suppose it wouldn't do to have Captain Imperium using Chaos weaponry.

Hellebore

Mannimarco
10-02-2011, 02:03
Sadly it all seems to depend on who you are and how much clout you have: The SW running around with an axe taken from a champion of Khorne is ok, the UM having a pair of powerfists stripped from a berserker (look at the mural on Calgars land raider, see the bunny helm) is perfectly fine but the Relictors get wiped out for seeking out Chaos weapons to use against the enemy.

Remember what first started the Relictors in their quest to gather up Chaos weapons to use against it: The chapter master Artekus Bardane was fighting against a Chaos champion, his squad dead and the champion (of tzeentch IIRC) not having the common decency to fall over and die no matter what Artekus did, scrambling for a weapon he grabbed the first thing that came to had and struck the champion down. Only after seeing the champ fall did Artekus realise it was a weapon of Chaos. This is what started them on their mission to gather Chaos stuff.

Bit better than killing a Chaos champion, looking at his weapons and loudly proclaiming "yoink! these are mine by the way".

Icarus
10-02-2011, 21:14
BASICALLY, yeah. They claimed it's a relic of the chapter, so it's ok for them to use it!

This.
In fact, I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves have used the same logic to hang onto spaceships they have captured from rebel Imperial planets. Y'know, spaceships they are specifically forbidden to have...

Nobody messes with the Wolves! :)

[lexus]
10-02-2011, 22:20
Hell no. The Relictors used to capture a lot of Deamon weapons and they even had a (radical) Inquisitor telling them it was okay to do so. But then the rest of the Inquisition caught up with them, send in a fleet, threatened to blast them from orbit if they didnt hand over said Inquisitor and weapons and went on some long crusade without the ability to recruit new people. The Relictors complied, but ever since they have been behaving like a rogue chapter, following their own agenda.

Also, the Inquisitor that told them it was okay got executed at once.

Besides, if the Inquisition isnt allowed to do it, why the hell should Space Marines be allowed to use whatever chaos touched weapon they feel like using? Space Marines are just as susceptible to Chaos as Inquisitors.

Scalebug
10-02-2011, 23:46
;5304745']Hell no. The Relictors used to capture a lot of Deamon weapons and they even had a (radical) Inquisitor telling them it was okay to do so. But then the rest of the Inquisition caught up with them, send in a fleet, threatened to blast them from orbit if they didnt hand over said Inquisitor and weapons and went on some long crusade without the ability to recruit new people. The Relictors complied, but ever since they have been behaving like a rogue chapter, following their own agenda.



I think you missed the follow up and conclusion on their background then...

Another, it turned out radical, Inqusitor who, secretly, wanted to get hold of some artifact the Relictors had aquired (also there was some note of them having raided and burned a heretic research station dabbling in forbidden lore, and killed everyone there. This lab was a black op run by this Inquisitor.)

He sent the Grey Knights and Imperial Navy to purge them and destroy their relics. Which they did, with most of the chapter wiped out, and the rest declared excommunicated and stricken from records.

[lexus]
11-02-2011, 08:22
I think you missed the follow up and conclusion on their background then...

Another, it turned out radical, Inqusitor who, secretly, wanted to get hold of some artifact the Relictors had aquired (also there was some note of them having raided and burned a heretic research station dabbling in forbidden lore, and killed everyone there. This lab was a black op run by this Inquisitor.)

He sent the Grey Knights and Imperial Navy to purge them and destroy their relics. Which they did, with most of the chapter wiped out, and the rest declared excommunicated and stricken from records.

Really? Oh well, Ive only followed their background up till the 13th black crusade where they were mentioned attacking some library or something. It could be that heretic research station you mentioned?

Also, could you give me the source that states what happened to them in the end?

ShodansOwn
11-02-2011, 10:50
I've always been under the impression (based on some piece of fluff I read years ago) that a reclaimed Chaos weapon will virtually always result in eventual corruption.

I feel like I read somewhere that most Chaos gear has a certain level of will or presence within it, and it will always attempt to "steer" the user towards more bloodshed and tasty tasty souls.

The 3rd Ed. Daemonhunter in me says :no: "All Chaos gear is evil and you have to die because you brushed against it"

The 5th Ed. Chaos IG in me says :yes: "Eh, dont worry about it! I'm sure you're big and tough enough to resist the taint":shifty:

Hellebore
11-02-2011, 11:11
The Imperium specifically reclaims chaos space ships and refits them as Imperial ships. This is because chaos warships are almost all ancient and thus superior designs.

The imperium has a long history of using chaos tainted equipment (the ships often have their crews fused to the bulkheads etc, so it's not exactly a simple process to rebrand a ship as imperial).

Hellebore

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 11:14
Somewhere in BFG, there is a ship which says that the Imperium discontinued making its model because all of them ever built turned Traitor so they were cursed. I think it was an escort.

However, ALL of a single line turning =/= some of the ships turning because of captains/crews. I think I thought I had a point. Maybe not.

Wyrmwood
11-02-2011, 12:51
Somewhere in BFG, there is a ship which says that the Imperium discontinued making its model because all of them ever built turned Traitor so they were cursed. I think it was an escort.

However, ALL of a single line turning =/= some of the ships turning because of captains/crews. I think I thought I had a point. Maybe not.

Something to do with the Machine-Spirits? Sort of like Dreadclaw Assault Pods. I've read that too, under the Chaos Armada section.

Poseidal
11-02-2011, 12:54
Wasn't Roboute a swordsman? Did he actually use the Gauntlets or did he seal them away in his 'trophy cabinet' so to speak?

Wyrmwood
11-02-2011, 12:59
Wasn't Roboute a swordsman? Did he actually use the Gauntlets or did he seal them away in his 'trophy cabinet' so to speak?

I think that he claimed them during The Scouring.

ShodansOwn
11-02-2011, 18:37
The Imperium specifically reclaims chaos space ships and refits them as Imperial ships. This is because chaos warships are almost all ancient and thus superior designs.

The imperium has a long history of using chaos tainted equipment (the ships often have their crews fused to the bulkheads etc, so it's not exactly a simple process to rebrand a ship as imperial).

Hellebore

Ugh, seems like such a terrible idea.

I wish I had more info to offer you guys, but this reminds me of Aztek temples that got captured by the Spanish and converted into Catholic churches. Can you just imagine trying to pray in one of these churches, on the same foundation as the original temple, all the gold and artifacts are Aztek re-po's...

I bet once these Chaos ships are fitted with a new Imperial crew, a lot of them must have fallen to false Chaos-taint where people were just way too much on edge and suspicious of their peers.

Icarus
11-02-2011, 18:43
Something to do with the Machine-Spirits? Sort of like Dreadclaw Assault Pods. I've read that too, under the Chaos Armada section.

I thought it was something to do with the physical shape of the ship? As in something about the design made it more susceptible to corruption in the warp?
*goes looking through old articles*

x-esiv-4c
11-02-2011, 18:44
Seeing as how the Primarchs were made with the help of Chaos, makes sense to use Daemon-weapons :)

Pooky
11-02-2011, 21:03
Seeing as how the Primarchs were made with the help of Chaos, makes sense to use Daemon-weapons :)

Who did what now? From what (little) I know I thought the Emperor created them using SCIENCE! What's going on here? :confused:

Mannimarco
11-02-2011, 21:09
;5305473']Really? Oh well, Ive only followed their background up till the 13th black crusade where they were mentioned attacking some library or something. It could be that heretic research station you mentioned?

Also, could you give me the source that states what happened to them in the end?

IA Relictors.

We see a pretty sweet boarding action by the GK onto the Ramilies class star fort where the Relictors were based. Some fighting through the corridors and a few Relictor ships breaking through the blockade to escape.

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 21:16
I thought it was something to do with the physical shape of the ship? As in something about the design made it more susceptible to corruption in the warp?
*goes looking through old articles*

This is how I remember it, as well. I remember thinking to myself that it was just like the building in the first Ghostbusters. Damn. Now I need to name a Chaos Lord Gozer and have him command the ships Zuul and Vinz Clortho. :shifty: