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madd0ct0r
10-02-2011, 06:44
Most of the Imperial/chaos factions tend to have clear links to old Earth Cultures:

Space Wolves = vikings in space, Thousand Suns = Babaloyian Astronomers ect.

Are there any known examples for the Ad-mech?

My basic troops are distinctly Napoleonic Steampunk, but I'm a little stuck for a stronger theme to tie the army and their homeland together.

Anything too dystopian or soviet just leads back to Standard Imperium with shades of Armaggedon. Anything less then dystopian feels odd with the Ad-mech.

Any good ideas to throw into the mix?

madd0ct0r
10-02-2011, 12:13
Well, I deciced to go with the first stereotype i thought of.

Amish.

yup. I'm going to do Amish Ad-mech.

reading various things (http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/02/amish_hackers_a.php) and from what i knew already, this may actually be doable.

MagosHereticus
10-02-2011, 12:35
the admech looks to me like simply a gross exaggeration of every negative trait in the scientific community

chriscrowing
10-02-2011, 16:39
I think you're on the right track with the steampunk idea.

Check out this search http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Steampunk+Concept+Art&FORM=R5FD4 mixed with this search http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cyborg+concept+art&form=QBIR&qs=n&sk= for some cool images that areb't too dystopian or soviet.

One thing I'd caution you to remember - rebreathers & oxygen masks are 100% necessary for Ad Mech, and the dystopian thing can't really be avoided - after all, the Ad Mech made a religion out of not understanding technology because they lived on an uninhabitable, wasted world. That's pretty damned bleak...

MajorWesJanson
10-02-2011, 17:47
Apple. Cult of the machine, networked technology, dependence on machines for life, unwillingness to let the layperson know how to do even basic maintenance of equipment, treating hacks or mods as heresy.

[lexus]
10-02-2011, 23:07
Perhaps they arent actually linked to any old earth cultural stereotype, but more with various scifi stereotypes like cyborgs. That or just H.R. Gigers Biomechanical made plastic. With a flavor of Fundamental Christianity. Although I doubt that was done intentional.

Sikkukkut
11-02-2011, 11:15
I'm not sure about drawing a direct line from the Mechanicus to any specific real-world culture, apart from a general resemblance to a number of historical religions with a big emphasis on high ceremony and esoteric mysteries.

On the other hand, the themes of religions growing up around technology aren't new in science fiction - HG Wells did a story about it, and it was a part of Asimov's Foundation series. If I were to single out a particular work I'd suggest that the original designers had read and liked Walter Miller's novel A Canticle for Leibowitz. It's a moderately famous SF novel in a post-apocalyptic world in which technology has been largely forgotten and made the subject of ritual, with frightening superstitions about "fallout demons" and monks laboriously making beautifully-illuminated parchment copies of old circuit diagrams whose meanings they aren't close to understanding.

madd0ct0r
11-02-2011, 11:27
ooh. i like the parchment circuitry

Apple would be fun, but would require me to redo everything in my army, and my sisters are all ready mostly white, so a change in colour'd be nice.

Sorry - I should have been more clear at the start. I'm looking for examples of culure tropes in the ad-mech, but also peoples suggestions on how to mesh two completely unrelated ones. Like the apple example.

Sai-Lauren
11-02-2011, 12:53
One thing I'd caution you to remember - rebreathers & oxygen masks are 100% necessary for Ad Mech, and the dystopian thing can't really be avoided -

99.99% necessary, Felicia in the Cain novels doesn't have one.

And IMO, Biologis adepts might stay mostly human to stay fundamentally closer to what they're studying - they'll still have some implants though.


after all, the Ad Mech made a religion out of not understanding technology because they lived on an uninhabitable, wasted world. That's pretty damned bleak...
Mars was terraformed and later had the biosphere destroyed (although it was probably going that way anyway), and the AM probably started as a scientific think-tank.

IIRC, they supplied arms to all sides in the Age of Strife, so the religious aspect may possibly have started as a ruse to avoid coming down on one side or the other (reducing profits, making themselves a target to all other sides, and risking being on the losing side), and continued later on as a way of maintaining their prestige and position in the embryonic Imperium.

Anyway, back on topic.

Personally, I'd put the AM almost as idiot-savants - they know what they know by rote, but they're incapable of making intuitive leaps, partly because their faith proscribes against it (all knowledge comes only from the Machine God, anything else is Tech-heresy), partly because they're trained to think logically rather than imaginatively (and all the electronic systems they implant in their skulls to replace the wetware can't help).

To just (say) add hover systems to a car would be grounds for a seriously unpleasant punishment - unless you've spent six years in meditative contemplation of the car's blueprints, at which point, the Machine God granted you the vision needed to make the minor changes required.

Unless the senior adept in charge doesn't like you, in which case, refer to the first example.

Add in that the senior ranks of the AM are all incredibly old, virtually all machine, and what's left of their organics is senile (I know I read it in some old fluff, but I'm desperately trying to remember where that was), and you've got the AM.

Maybe the medieval church might be the best cultural influence, coupled with victorian mills and the very worst government beaureaucracies.

Out of order, but:


the admech looks to me like simply a gross exaggeration of every negative trait in the scientific community

Nope, most scientists are there to understand the how and why, and enhance that knowledge into the new - be that for the good of the general populace, or to make money.

The AM don't care about enhancing knowledge, and their view of the how and why is because the Machine God wishes it to happen.

Besides which, in the 41st Millenium they don't have Star Trek or Firefly (410th Century Fox cancelled it ;) ), so it can't be every negative trait. :p

ShodansOwn
11-02-2011, 21:28
To just (say) add hover systems to a car would be grounds for a seriously unpleasant punishment - unless you've spent six years in meditative contemplation of the car's blueprints, at which point, the Machine God granted you the vision needed to make the minor changes required.

Well hey, thats responsible engineering right there. Regardless of the religion, at least they're forcing only the best ideas (or at least the most thought-out) to persist.



The AM don't care about enhancing knowledge, and their view of the how and why is because the Machine God wishes it to happen.

The earlier mentioned Amish analogue seems extremely appropriate considering this mindset. They've deliberately stalled at a certain level of technological progression and they're rabidly dead-set on staying that way. The isolated home planet is just as good as an Amish community out in the country that doesnt have much contact with the modern world (by logistical constraints AND by choice).

Someone with stronger historical knowledge than myself can probably find even closer approximations, but Amish sounds good. Either way, I like this method of writing your army's fluff.

Yodhrin
11-02-2011, 22:40
Ancient Greece. No, really; unit names(Skitarii/Scutari, Hyspasists, Sagitarii etc), unit designations use the Greek alphabet, and the Machine Cult echoes the Pythagoreans in their meshing of science/mathematics and mysticism/philosophy.

Every depiction of the Mechanicus I've seen starts with that Grecian angle and adds extra elements from there.

Aliarzathanil
12-02-2011, 00:04
Never really thought of the Ad-mech as steampunk, you know, cause of all the plasma reactors and such.

The Imperium is really more like Imperial Russia than Soviet Russia btw.

destroyerlord
12-02-2011, 01:38
Never really thought of the Ad-mech as steampunk, you know, cause of all the plasma reactors and such.

The Imperium is really more like Imperial Russia than Soviet Russia btw.

Its 'Plasma-punk'. (Plaspunk?)
Like steampunk, but with plasma reactors replacing all of the steam engines.

MagosHereticus
12-02-2011, 06:42
Its 'Plasma-punk'. (Plaspunk?)
Like steampunk, but with plasma reactors replacing all of the steam engines.

you mean cyberpunk

destroyerlord
12-02-2011, 07:41
you mean cyberpunk

Uh yeah, sure.
To be honest I'm not sure what all this '-punk' stuff is about anyway. :confused:

Wicksy
12-02-2011, 16:45
Nope, most scientists are there to understand the how and why, and enhance that knowledge into the new - be that for the good of the general populace, or to make money.
They are, but you sometimes get individuals who cling to outdated ideas and refuse to embrace anything new. Usually because it means admitting that their life's work is somewhat wrong (or incorrect is probably the better word). I find it a good analogy to explain part of the AdMech's way of thinking.

RBLFunk
13-02-2011, 01:43
They are, but you sometimes get individuals who cling to outdated ideas and refuse to embrace anything new. Usually because it means admitting that their life's work is somewhat wrong (or incorrect is probably the better word). I find it a good analogy to explain part of the AdMech's way of thinking.Then they're not scientists. In science, learning that a hypothesis or a theory is incorrect is every bit as valuable as learning that it is true. Either result increases knowledge.
A good example of a non-scientist perpetuating non-science because of emotional investment would be Trofim Lysenko and Lysenkoism which replaced genuine biological science in the early Soviet Union.

Best way of explaining the supposed backwards incompetence of anything in the Imperium is religion, plain and simple.
"Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time."
-Dick Dawkins

susu.exp
13-02-2011, 03:07
Well, actually itīs impossible to ever find out that a theory is true, so learning which ones are wrong is the only knowledge science generates. On the other hand it is possible to generate positive knowledge in non-empirical fields like mathematics. The AdMech doesnīt do a lot of science (though we do have the occassional falsifiable hypothesis, like the tyranid phylogeny from the previous Codex [highly debatable in my opinion] or Anzion), they seem to try to ill-apply axiomatic deductive methods to the universe. Thatīs similar to religious fundamentalism (which applies the axiomatic deductive methods of theology to empirical fields). Itīs also not to far from the Aristotelian view - Aristotele argued one could understand the phenomenological universe through deductive reasoning. A view that science put to rest. So you get the Aristotelian philosophy and the schools of thought it influenced, like scholastics. Read some medieval bestiaries to get a feel for this and youīll find gems like this:

Of the beaver
There is an animal called the beaver, which is extremely gentle; its testicles are are highly suitable for medicine. Physiologus says of it that, when it knows that a hunter is pursuing it, it bites off its testicles and throws them in the hunter's face and, taking flight, escapes. But if, once again, another hunter is in pursuit, the beaver rears up and displays its sexual organs. When the hunter sees that it lacks testicles, he leaves it alone. Thus every man who heeds God's commandment and wishes to live chastely should cut off all his vices and shameless acts, and cast them from him into the face of the devil. Then the devil, seeing that the man has nothing belonging to him, retires in disorder. That man, however, lives in God and is not taken by the devil, who says: 'I will pursue, I will overtake them...'(Exodus, 15:9) The name castor comes from castrando,
'castrate'.

You might also be told that Jesus is the most insignificant elephant of all and Iīm pretty sure somebody in the AdMech has worked out that the Emperor is a baby Krootox.
Elephants also donīt have knees. This idea came about because some Roman historian describing Hannibals venture over the alps with the war elephants noted that they had legs like tree trunks. The intellectual elite of europe reasoned that tree trunks have no knees and ergo neither do elephant legs. Thatīs entirely logical and entirely misguided.

Iracundus
13-02-2011, 04:02
The Adeptus Mechanicus is like another version of the medieval Church. The knowledge of the ancients (i.e. the Greeks and Romans) were preserved at least partially, and in much the same way as the Adeptus Mechanicus preserves fragments of the Dark Age of Technology and the STC.

However the orthodox Adeptus Mechanicus view of technology and knowledge is much like the blind monk in The Name of the Rose: All worthwhile knowledge had been discovered by the ancients and it was a matter of preservation and unearthing that old knowledge, not generating new knowledge.

Thus even when there might conceivably be new knowledge or innovation, it has to be presented or recast as re-discovery of the old, or an allowed for variation in the STC. To claim to have generated or found new knowledge unknown to the ancients is hubris.

MagosHereticus
13-02-2011, 06:48
Nope, most scientists are there to understand the how and why, and enhance that knowledge into the new - be that for the good of the general populace, or to make money.

The AM don't care about enhancing knowledge, and their view of the how and why is because the Machine God wishes it to happen.

Besides which, in the 41st Millenium they don't have Star Trek or Firefly (410th Century Fox cancelled it ;) ), so it can't be every negative trait. :p


i assume you reply with this sort of rubbish because you dont actually know any scientists or have any involvement with the scientific community, as for star trek and firefly, they have nothing to do with science

would you like me to elaborate on what i was referring to are do you just wish to gainsay me without having a clue what you are talking about?

Raellos
13-02-2011, 08:53
Uh yeah, sure.
To be honest I'm not sure what all this '-punk' stuff is about anyway. :confused:

It's a load of ***, imo!

Sikkukkut
13-02-2011, 10:44
It's a load of ***, imo!

Very punk of you.

Answering destroyerlord, the "punk" part of cyberpunk referred to one of its major tropes: a lawless, often violent but also violently energetic underclass culture that was hacking and retasking technology ("the street finds its own uses for things"). The label "-punk" started to get slapped onto other subgenres - steampunk, dieselpunk, biopunk, mythpunk - in the same way that "-gate" tends to get tacked onto any sort of political scandal. You're not the first to wonder what it actually means when it's used so indiscriminately.

Raellos
13-02-2011, 11:49
It's an opinion brought about by an aversion to Abney Park and numpties with goggles and pocket watches in general. :)

madd0ct0r
13-02-2011, 12:53
While clearly derived from cyber-punk, the punk part of steampunk could be said to represent it as a modern day sub-culture, same as you can actually be a Cyber-punker or punk-rocker. Admittedly, this is just an excuse. Goths and Skin-heads don't feel the need to stick punk on the end of it.
and I think Cyber-goth is a more common term for real life.

it's quite a good descriptive word though. most of you knew what i was talking about.

Chem-Dog
13-02-2011, 22:03
Most of the Imperial/chaos factions tend to have clear links to old Earth Cultures:

Are there any known examples for the Ad-mech?

The AM is something of a unique entity in 40K as it doesn't have any clear parallels or influences derived from any existing/extinct cultures. While the whole steampunk thing seems to fit to some degree I think this is precisely because there are no cultural influences that can easily be drawn into it, steampunk deriving much of it's own mystique from the cultural echoes of the industrial revolution seems to fit.

As has been noted above the Adeptus Mechanicus' main inspiration, initially at least, was the Medieval Catholic Church (fitting with 40K extremely feudal casting).



One thing I'd caution you to remember - rebreathers & oxygen masks are 100% necessary for Ad Mech

Absolute bunk, use of rebreathers is simply an easy way of underscoring the archetypical AM member's divorcement from the human condition, by removing that most recognisable human feature, the face and therefore highlight the Mechanicus' lack of vanity in any normal sphere of human experience although one could easily draw comparisons with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) AKA Apotemnophilia.
A ranking Mechanicus member could just as easily be fitted with artificial/bionic lungs or any number of artificial implants to filter inhaled atmosphere, simply bypass the lungs or whatever.


the dystopian thing can't really be avoided

It can and has, at the very least you don't have to over play it.
Not least because the mechanicus is a religious order and, some parts of it at least, would be foward thinking and hopeful.



Sorry - I should have been more clear at the start. I'm looking for examples of culure tropes in the ad-mech

Did someone say Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AveMachina)?...usual warning about the loss of hours of your life to this website...



And IMO, Biologis adepts might stay mostly human to stay fundamentally closer to what they're studying - they'll still have some implants though.

This implies a level of personal attachment that flies in the face of the standard Magos type, I imagine a Magos would regard virtually any biology with the curious eyes of an outsider, even one that started as an entirely biological being. Perhaps the perfect observational scientist.



Mars was terraformed and later had the biosphere destroyed (although it was probably going that way anyway), and the AM probably started as a scientific think-tank.

I thought Mars' terraforming just simply degraded and failed rather than being destroyed. As for the origins of humans on Mars, I'd be more inclined to believe that it was primarily a resource outpost, mining valuable minerals and the like, it's also likely that Mars was a staging ground for interstellar travel as mankind first expanded across the galaxy.
Either/both would be valid reasons for Mars to initially be a repository of engineering expertise. What starts of as mining concerns for organisations back on Earth slowly becomes something else, it's own original purpose lost to the march of progress and the Old Night.


the religious aspect may possibly have started as a ruse to avoid coming down on one side or the other

I think it's origins out-universe are much simpler, the old idea of individuals with intimate knowledge of machines being able to get them working by seemingly un-orthodox methods (such as "Percussive Maintenance"), the uninformed onlooker amazed by their magical touch and ignorant of the fact that the problem is simply a gear that is jammed or pipe blocked.
Those that come after know how to fix the problem but less about why it works, eventualy down the generations learning by rote become ritual.
A lack of understanding in the fundamentals of what makes things in human experience work IS they key to a belief in supernatural beings/dieties.
Again this can be partially ascribed to the idea of the old journeyman knowing his craft and his machines inside out and anthropomorphising their various mechanical peculiarities as moods and temperament (Most car owners I know will swear as to the personality of their vehicle) the cascade of decades into centuries expands this idle idea and crystallizes into a belief system and eventually formalised into a faith.

Of course this is all the more easier when a star-god is leaking it's consciousness into the air and the ultimate messiah lives on the next planet over...;)


Personally, I'd put the AM almost as idiot-savants - they know what they know by rote, but they're incapable of making intuitive leaps, partly because their faith proscribes against it (all knowledge comes only from the Machine God, anything else is Tech-heresy), partly because they're trained to think logically rather than imaginatively (and all the electronic systems they implant in their skulls to replace the wetware can't help).

No argument from me here :)


Add in that the senior ranks of the AM are all incredibly old, virtually all machine, and what's left of their organics is senile (I know I read it in some old fluff, but I'm desperately trying to remember where that was), and you've got the AM.

Even worse than this in my mind, the loss of organs and glands remove emotion from the equasion (not to mention the Rite of Pure Thought) but not the Ambition. The Magos slowly (deliberately or not) removes morality from his being and Ambition without Morality makes for a dangerous, ruthless individual.

Wasn't one of the Techpriests in Storm of Iron a little on the batty side? (alliances with Chaos Gods notwitshtanding).



Ancient Greece. No, really; unit names(Skitarii/Scutari, Hyspasists, Sagitarii etc), unit designations use the Greek alphabet, and the Machine Cult echoes the Pythagoreans in their meshing of science/mathematics and mysticism/philosophy.

Names rather than any cultural influence, at best it's a shorthand for a scientific culture with heavy reliance on both greek and latin use within the panoply of scientific endeavour, the convention of species classification in latin, the continued use of latin and greek in all types of medical classification ect. I don't see that classical Greek culture has impacted the Mechanicus beyond that, which is really just a reflection on their influence on our culture.


All usual personal opinion caveats apply :D

Wicksy
13-02-2011, 23:57
Then they're not scientists. In science, learning that a hypothesis or a theory is incorrect is every bit as valuable as learning that it is true. Either result increases knowledge.
A good example of a non-scientist perpetuating non-science because of emotional investment would be Trofim Lysenko and Lysenkoism which replaced genuine biological science in the early Soviet Union.

Best way of explaining the supposed backwards incompetence of anything in the Imperium is religion, plain and simple.
"Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time."
-Dick Dawkins

Oh but they are my friend ;) My friend encountered this when publishing his research on the packing of membrane lipids in liquid crystals. The work he had showed that the old theories were wrong. As it stood, he wouldnt have got his main work published as the people who had to peer review it would have had their own work proved wrong. I also encountered this to a degree as i had to very carefully word certain sections of my paper to get it past reviewers as it would have contradicted their own work.

Science has very much been political for a long time. Just go back to Newton and Hook's falling outs they had.

Chem-Dog
14-02-2011, 07:48
Science has very much been political for a long time.

Science has always been political, the nature of the politics to play has changed, but the fact that science is always required to sugar coat it's findings remains, this is why Evolution is still regarded by so many as a "Theory".

With regard to the Adeptus Mechanicus though, they aren't "Discovering" anything, meerly aping designs created long ago, for the Mechanicus there is no creation or invention because everything has already been invented.
So no cutting edge Einstein/Bohr style debates for the Adepts of Mars.
But then philosophy leaks in....

Sai-Lauren
14-02-2011, 09:46
They are, but you sometimes get individuals who cling to outdated ideas and refuse to embrace anything new. Usually because it means admitting that their life's work is somewhat wrong (or incorrect is probably the better word). I find it a good analogy to explain part of the AdMech's way of thinking.

True, and it's not just scientists that do that, you could easily add in politicians, sports coaches, middle managers at large companies...



Well, actually itīs impossible to ever find out that a theory is true, so learning which ones are wrong is the only knowledge science generates.

Not quite, you can have a theory which is experimentally provable (Einstein's theories of relativity for example), but others may follow you and either improve that theory, or use other more recent discoveries to disprove it under certain conditions.

Doesn't make Einstein wrong, he was just not as right as you (and you're not as right as the next person), but was more right than Newton.

The one thing you can't do is prove a negative - that something never happens. All you can say is that under the conditions you tested it, it didn't happen.



i assume you reply with this sort of rubbish because you dont actually know any scientists or have any involvement with the scientific community, as for star trek and firefly, they have nothing to do with science

would you like me to elaborate on what i was referring to are do you just wish to gainsay me without having a clue what you are talking about?

The tv programs were meant as a joke - you know, the stereotypical geek scientist/sci-fi fan. That's why there was a smiley after it.

But yes, I'd like to hear what you think science is all about. This is a discussion board after all.

In fact, think of what I said as my theory (which some others seem to have backed up to a degree) - people who go into science are attracted to it by the opportunity to discover answers to questions. What they then do with those answers is up to the individual.



I think it's origins out-universe are much simpler, the old idea of individuals with intimate knowledge of machines being able to get them working by seemingly un-orthodox methods (such as "Percussive Maintenance"), the uninformed onlooker amazed by their magical touch and ignorant of the fact that the problem is simply a gear that is jammed or pipe blocked.
Those that come after know how to fix the problem but less about why it works, eventualy down the generations learning by rote become ritual.
A lack of understanding in the fundamentals of what makes things in human experience work IS they key to a belief in supernatural beings/dieties.
Again this can be partially ascribed to the idea of the old journeyman knowing his craft and his machines inside out and anthropomorphising their various mechanical peculiarities as moods and temperament (Most car owners I know will swear as to the personality of their vehicle) the cascade of decades into centuries expands this idle idea and crystallizes into a belief system and eventually formalised into a faith.

For colony worlds, especially when they were cut off from other worlds, I'd absolutely agree, for the AM themselves, I'd be slightly less keen on the idea - they should have the knowledge available.

Although when it became a more religious organisation, I could see the "higher mysteries" getting restricted to the more senior members, partly to protect their own positions.

And, whilst some of it could be anthropromorphising, I'd definately agree about "mechanical personality" - consider that every single part in a machine is created to tolerances rather than accurate dimensions (so some are larger or weigh less than others), that the crystallography of the parts will differ, that densities of impurities and additives within the piece will differ and so on - each car coming off the production line could easily be slightly different from the one after it.

Add in wear and tear, and in a few years, they could be drastically different in behaviour.

Chem-Dog
14-02-2011, 18:00
For colony worlds, especially when they were cut off from other worlds, I'd absolutely agree, for the AM themselves, I'd be slightly less keen on the idea - they should have the knowledge available.

They DO but they don't know it, Arkhan Land himself "discovered" the schematics required for the Land Raider, Land Speeder (and IIRC a third Land vehicle mentioned at least in RT era) on MARS. It's like finding the complete instructions on how to assemble and maintain a cold fusion reactor down the back of the sofa, the Mechanicus are so blinded by Dogma they are unable to truly master that which they seek to understand.
the supreme irony of the Cult Mechanicus.


Although when it became a more religious organisation, I could see the "higher mysteries" getting restricted to the more senior members, partly to protect their own positions.

Oh deffinitely, this is part of the reason so much knowledge is hidden away not being used, because senile old Magoses forgot where they put it.


And, whilst some of it could be anthropromorphising, I'd definately agree about "mechanical personality" - consider that every single part in a machine is created to tolerances rather than accurate dimensions (so some are larger or weigh less than others), that the crystallography of the parts will differ, that densities of impurities and additives within the piece will differ and so on - each car coming off the production line could easily be slightly different from the one after it.

*nods head enthusiastically*
Which only serves to highlight our, and by extention the AM's lack of total understanding, if they had true mastery of universally shared technology (within the order, of course) they would be able to control the properties of every component down to the absolute last molecule and atom (if not even smaller)
In this instance we are ALL the ignorant onlooker scratching our collective heads at the unseeable and largely inconceivable malfunctions of the minute.


Add in wear and tear, and in a few years, they could be drastically different in behaviour.

Not to mention the precise use of each comparative subject, like how one man's shoe sole will be worn on the inner side and another's will be worn on the outer side. I live on the coast, for example, don't ever buy a second hand car from the coast without thouroughly checking it for rust....the sea air does it a proper mischief (on the same token, if you have a tidy car you wanna flog quickly, advertise it in neaby costal towns. We ALL know about the salt air.)

Lord-Caerolion
14-02-2011, 22:31
They DO but they don't know it, Arkhan Land himself "discovered" the schematics required for the Land Raider, Land Speeder (and IIRC a third Land vehicle mentioned at least in RT era) on MARS. It's like finding the complete instructions on how to assemble and maintain a cold fusion reactor down the back of the sofa, the Mechanicus are so blinded by Dogma they are unable to truly master that which they seek to understand.
the supreme irony of the Cult Mechanicus.

Well, there is the fact that the catacombs of Mars aren't exactly the safest of places. It's not like Land just went for a stroll and tripped over the schematics in the basement where they'd never been unpacked. Most who go down into the catacombs don't return. They're infested with schismaticals ('machine spirits' that multiply and have developed the ability to spread to and infect other machines, taking them over), among other unknown things.
Land is simply one of the few that not only came back, but found something too.

Sai-Lauren
15-02-2011, 08:28
Missed this one before:


This implies a level of personal attachment that flies in the face of the standard Magos type, I imagine a Magos would regard virtually any biology with the curious eyes of an outsider, even one that started as an entirely biological being. Perhaps the perfect observational scientist.

I'd put AM Biologis personnel outside of the standard AM types simply by definition - most of the AM are concerned with the technical - machines, electronics, even basic physics and chemistry.

The Biologis on the other hand would be responsible for everything from chemical fertilisers for crops, through medical research and possibly social sciences up to genetic engineering of bio-weapons and dissection of Xenos organisms. Whilst those involved in the latter would need implants to protect themselves from things going wrong, IMO, those involved in the others are porbbaly more likely than any other members of the AM to meet with normal people, where being more obviously human in appearance will help with their interactions.

Besides which, it adds another flavour to the AM archetype, adds more characterisation, allows for other specialised parts to differentiate themselves more clearly and promotes a little dischord in the organisation which can be used for plot threads (other parts of the AM would almost certainly look down on the Biologis as "not really one of us"). :)



They DO but they don't know it, Arkhan Land himself "discovered" the schematics required for the Land Raider, Land Speeder (and IIRC a third Land vehicle mentioned at least in RT era) on MARS. It's like finding the complete instructions on how to assemble and maintain a cold fusion reactor down the back of the sofa, the Mechanicus are so blinded by Dogma they are unable to truly master that which they seek to understand.

Sorry, I meant to say that they should have that information available for dissemination, at least to their own members. But yes, throw in their faith, information being restricted based on position within the organisation and internal politics and, well, it's a wonder they actually manage to do anything at all.



the supreme irony of the Cult Mechanicus.

Agree there, I did postulate a while back that maybe the AM actually have an intact STC available, but they don't recognise it as such because, like the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they're looking for something bright and shiny to match what they think it is, rather than the dull and mundane thing it actually is.

And, of course, they've lost the adaptor plugs to be able to access it. ;)



Well, there is the fact that the catacombs of Mars aren't exactly the safest of places. It's not like Land just went for a stroll and tripped over the schematics in the basement where they'd never been unpacked. Most who go down into the catacombs don't return. They're infested with schismaticals ('machine spirits' that multiply and have developed the ability to spread to and infect other machines, taking them over), among other unknown things.

Well, you say machine spirits, I say uncontrolled cyber warfare viruses hijacking robots and servitors - some of which may have been released deliberately to determine their effectiveness. ;)

AvatarForm
15-02-2011, 12:09
the admech looks to me like simply a gross exaggeration of every negative trait in the scientific community


Apple. Cult of the machine, networked technology, dependence on machines for life, unwillingness to let the layperson know how to do even basic maintenance of equipment, treating hacks or mods as heresy.

This.

And... Thousand Sons are EGYPTIAN... not Babylonian

Sai-Lauren
15-02-2011, 13:03
Apple. Cult of the machine, networked technology, dependence on machines for life, unwillingness to let the layperson know how to do even basic maintenance of equipment, treating hacks or mods as heresy.

This.

Ah, the Omnis-iaahPod. :D

It's probably not a bad analogy actually for the AM (and kind of obvious when you think about it), and leads into various internal schisms - Apple vs Microsoft, Spectrum vs Commodore 64, Sony vs Nintendo vs Sega, Google vs Bing, Facebook vs MySpace, the various Linux distro fanbases and so on.



And... Thousand Sons are EGYPTIAN... not Babylonian

They might be primarily Egyptian, but the designers take aspects from a lot of sources for each army - I remember someone (might have been Gav Thorpe) saying that they saw a lot of White Scars lists where people had just turned the Mongol hordes into Marines as an example, when the designers would take from multiple sources (Mongols as primary source, plus native American tribes, possibly mounted Samurai and so on).

AvatarForm
16-02-2011, 09:45
They might be primarily Egyptian, but the designers take aspects from a lot of sources for each army - I remember someone (might have been Gav Thorpe) saying that they saw a lot of White Scars lists where people had just turned the Mongol hordes into Marines as an example, when the designers would take from multiple sources (Mongols as primary source, plus native American tribes, possibly mounted Samurai and so on).

Primarily Egyptian is NOT babylonian

Lord-Caerolion
16-02-2011, 10:20
Actually, I remember Dan Abnett saying that the Thousand Sons might be Egyptian in appearance, but in actual culture etc they were closer to Aztec/Mayan.

AvatarForm
16-02-2011, 10:56
Actually, I remember Dan Abnett saying that the Thousand Sons might be Egyptian in appearance, but in actual culture etc they were closer to Aztec/Mayan.

Yet, cultural references, including the Spires of Prospero were ALL Egyptian... Abnett even went so far as to reference and name 'ancient Aegyptus' throughout both books.

Sai-Lauren
16-02-2011, 12:09
Primarily Egyptian is NOT babylonian

Nor is it solely Egyptian. Same as a beefburger isn't just a patty made of ground beef, it's a ground beef patty with the addition of herbs, spices etc.



Yet, cultural references, including the Spires of Prospero were ALL Egyptian... Abnett even went so far as to reference and name 'ancient Aegyptus' throughout both books.

Let us not forget that to the Heresy era, the year 20,000 is even more ancient history than Ancient Egypt is to us - Aegyptus may be modern-day Egypt alone, or it may be an array of lands around that part of the world (which could include modern day Iraq/ Ancient Babylon), or possibly even an area in Central/Southern America based on Egypt/Babylon/Aztec/Inca named by the local warlord after himself. ;)

Anyway, weren't we discussing the AM? :)

Chem-Dog
17-02-2011, 01:25
Well, there is the fact that the catacombs of Mars aren't exactly the safest of places. It's not like Land just went for a stroll and tripped over the schematics in the basement where they'd never been unpacked.

The point I was making stands though, the AM has vast swathes of data it doesn't access (be it lost, forgotten or misintepreted and subsequently discarded).


They're infested with schismaticals ('machine spirits' that multiply and have developed the ability to spread to and infect other machines, taking them over), among other unknown things.

Not surprising given the mess the Dark Mechanicus must have left Mars in....



I'd put AM Biologis personnel outside of the standard AM types simply by definition - most of the AM are concerned with the technical - machines, electronics, even basic physics and chemistry.

I don't see any Magos sticking doggedly to a single dicipline forever, admittedly it's only one example but the Magos in Eisenhorn (Geard Bure) is quite explicitly stated as having done stints in several vastly different fields. This is how I see a Magos going about his life, adopting a new field to specialise in until he gets as far as he wants with it and then picking something else.


The Biologis on the other hand would be responsible for everything from chemical fertilisers for crops, through medical research and possibly social sciences up to genetic engineering of bio-weapons and dissection of Xenos organisms.

But one Magos wouldn't do all of these things at once, they would concentrate on a specific aspect of Biology in the same way as they would concentrate on a specific field within Physics, Chemistry or any one of the more esoteric diciplines of scientific endeavour.


those involved in the others are porbbaly more likely than any other members of the AM to meet with normal people, where being more obviously human in appearance will help with their interactions.

The people who've written AM characters to date have gone out of their way to de-humanize the characters as much as possible, so all fluff sources tend to give us Magoses with extremely bizzare appearances. PR hasn't ever normally been an issue with the AM, they seem to seek to create as much mystique about themselves as possible, so I would imagine they are either oblivious to the impact of their outlandish apearance OR be inclined to think themselves superior to unaugmented non Cult Mechanicus types.


Besides which, it adds another flavour to the AM archetype, adds more characterisation, allows for other specialised parts to differentiate themselves more clearly and promotes a little dischord in the organisation which can be used for plot threads (other parts of the AM would almost certainly look down on the Biologis as "not really one of us"). :)

Again, with the idea of the Magos as some weird hybrid of a polymath and a victorian gentleman explorer combined with the thinking of disparate ideologies within the larger Cult Mechanicus, I think you have as much scope for dischord you'll ever need.
Personally I agree that the AM needs to be far more factionalised and less of a homogenised lump. (not a subtle push for the AM codex...at all....no way...not me :angel: )



Agree there, I did postulate a while back that maybe the AM actually have an intact STC available, but they don't recognise it as such because, like the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they're looking for something bright and shiny to match what they think it is, rather than the dull and mundane thing it actually is.

Yesh, Magosh, thish ish the Shtandard Template Conshtruct Machine.[/bad Connery Impression]



Anyway, weren't we discussing the AM? :)

Back to it then :p

Sai-Lauren
17-02-2011, 08:43
I don't see any Magos sticking doggedly to a single dicipline forever, admittedly it's only one example but the Magos in Eisenhorn (Geard Bure) is quite explicitly stated as having done stints in several vastly different fields. This is how I see a Magos going about his life, adopting a new field to specialise in until he gets as far as he wants with it and then picking something else.

I'd disagree for the most part.

Firstly, how does someone become a member of the AM? Personally, I'd go with apprenticeship and patronage - someone in the Forge Worlds work force shows skills in a particular technical area, and becomes apprenticed to the AM adept running it.

But they would then follow their master's line - Materials, Power Generation, Biology or whatever. That's where the skills that brought them to their masters attention are.

And have you ever heard the joke about education, you start off at primary school learning nothing about everything (wide subjects, little depth), and potentially wind up earning a professorship learning everything about nothing (very narrow subject, immense depth). That's how I see the AM progression - you start as a lowly adept, mainly wafting incense around as your master works and occasionally allows you to do something minor, but by the time you're a magos yourself, you've become a master in a certain specific area (likely your former masters).

I do see that there would be some who would cross disciplinary boundaries (either after a broad understanding of the mysteries of the Machine God, or simply because their researches take them across multiple fields), but there would be more who go far deeper (deeper, more specific knowledge).



But one Magos wouldn't do all of these things at once, they would concentrate on a specific aspect of Biology in the same way as they would concentrate on a specific field within Physics, Chemistry or any one of the more esoteric diciplines of scientific endeavour.

True, same as an adept in the Materials part of the AM wouldn't work on plastics, metallurgy, ceramics, composites, just one of them (and likely only a small part of it - if he's in composites, he might work on SiC fibre ones alone).



The people who've written AM characters to date have gone out of their way to de-humanize the characters as much as possible, so all fluff sources tend to give us Magoses with extremely bizzare appearances. PR hasn't ever normally been an issue with the AM, they seem to seek to create as much mystique about themselves as possible, so I would imagine they are either oblivious to the impact of their outlandish apearance OR be inclined to think themselves superior to unaugmented non Cult Mechanicus types.

Well, except Felicity in her appearances in the Cain novels. :)