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x-esiv-4c
22-03-2006, 14:55
What have been some occurances of cheating that you guys have seen? Be in sly or down-right obvious.

To kick off:
-roll a fist of dice "to hit" and by slight of hand pick up a few misses.

-One kid nonchalantly put a dead basilisk back on the table and proceded to use it!

Muse
22-03-2006, 15:01
-roll a fist of dice "to hit" and by slight of hand pick up a few misses.

I've had that one done to me and when i quesioned the guy about it he smiled at me and asked if he could roll again:wtf:

and just generally people having to many points on the board

El_Machinae
22-03-2006, 15:03
My most common complaint is that people forget special rules at convenient times.

cookiescrumble
22-03-2006, 15:06
Down my local gaming club there is one guy that always cheats lol. He always has too many points on the table and thinks that ones are hits on a bs4 marine :wtf: .

Yog_Sothoth
22-03-2006, 15:08
The red-shirts at my local shop have a very simple cheat when playing against kiddies. They simply exploit the Attention-deficit disorder of them and as soon as the kid diverts its attention or wanders off to another table during the opponents turn, they reroll their dices should they be in need of it.

But then again, thats more like punishment than a cheat

Ardathair
22-03-2006, 15:11
-roll a fist of dice "to hit" and by slight of hand pick up a few misses.

This is why most gaming groups I have been in you pick out the misses, then when only the hits are left roll what remains.

Seen players roll one die at a time, only counting hits or misses after all dice were rolled, and try to hit low dice with later ones to get higher numbers.

Seen players put the tape measure touching the front of a vehical and put the back at the six inch mark or however far it was moving. A Blood Angel player was the worst, measured the blood rage distance, regular move, then supercharged engine all seperately. got two or three vehical lengths add on to his move every turn and would swear he could do it.

Lame Duck
22-03-2006, 15:21
1.measuring movement form the front of the vehicle to the back, gaining a vehicle length.

2. moving too far in general, when questioned he puts them back in there 'original' position, only to add on even more movement

3. ORKS ARE STRENGTH 4!

4. Rolling too many dice......or pickin them up too fast (okthatsthree6sandfour5s,didntseethem?toobad!)

RdDragon5
22-03-2006, 15:23
I was thinking of using this tactic, but I'm not sure if it would be "cheating". Have a squad of marines with 2 plasam guns in a rhino. Then on your first turn move the rhino with marines already inside up 12" and turn the rhino 180 so its back is facing the enemy. Now I can deploy my marines 2" from the back door and well within the 12" rapid fire range if my opponent is right on the edge of his deployment zone. Cheating? Beardy? I'll let you of Warseer deicde. (Never actually done this just thinking of giving it a try.)

azimaith
22-03-2006, 15:35
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

Grotsnik
22-03-2006, 15:35
Guy would use a cloth measuring tape that had the actual measurements start about an inch from the metal tip. Except he would use the tip to measure from and gain extra distance every move.

I let him set up his stormboyz 18" from my necrons (using the trick tape) during deployment. Then pointed out the "problem" with the tapemeasure at the start of the first turn. :angel:
He move the boyz forward anyway, only to find they were just short of charge range! Couldn't figure out why either.
Needless to say I mowed drown 16 of 18 stormboyz during my shootin phase & the last 2 ran off the table. :evilgrin:
He got a new tape after that.:D

Lotharion
22-03-2006, 15:52
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

That's incorrect. A lot incorrect. You can move 12" and dismount from any transport.

To the above poster ref: Cheesy/beardy/whatever on this... no, it's perfectly fine. Not even a little beardy.

ghost hunter
22-03-2006, 15:55
i had a unit of guarsmen i amazingly passed all my arour save (5+) and then he said thats not fair so then he brought back one of his units and told me to rerole them i mean whats up with that :wtf: but hes getting kicked out of my gameworkshop for cheating

Bloody Gauntlet
22-03-2006, 16:00
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

You can do it (you just can't assault but by using open topped/LR), and imo it's perfectly legal as long as your minis end no farther than 14 inch from the start position. Nothing cheesy or beardy in it. It's exactly the rules, and not even against the spirit of them.

Edit: Damn, too late...

azimaith
22-03-2006, 16:06
My bad it was more than 12 inches, not 12 inches.

Sasquatch
22-03-2006, 16:09
This is why most gaming groups I have been in you pick out the misses, then when only the hits are left roll what remains.

Seen players roll one die at a time, only counting hits or misses after all dice were rolled, and try to hit low dice with later ones to get higher numbers.


The rolling one die at a time thing is really low. But the picking up misses doesn't change a whole lot. If you have a lot of dice, it's easy to leave a few misses in the lot.

I've personally had few problems with cheating. The only glaring one was a guy who used an illegal and totally cheesy list. I don't know if he was ignorant of the rules (first time he'd used the list) or not, but I didn't catch on 'cause I didn't know the list. He had three 6 max dev squads (with las/plas razorbacks!) in a Black Templars army. Funniest part is that despite the ultra cheese illegal list, I still managed to beat him!

Something happened to my girlfriend. Some snot nosed kid was making up rules for his army as the game went along. She's really new to the game, so she beleived him, but later found out. She was really pissed!

Son of Morkai
22-03-2006, 16:10
One opponent rolled for the extra move for his Wulfen, then proceeded to move his Grey Slayers along with the Wulfen. Oh, and he moved them farther than he rolled.

When I pointed it out, he argued, then just nudged the Slayers back about an inch.

He also declared perfectly flat dice cocked and rerolled them, so often that I called the judge over (it was a tournament). He argued with the judge.

Last turn, he accused me of cheating after his Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest failed to destroy a Rhino, saying that I had moved it too far. And yet... those infantry models had been in base contact with my Rhino before I moved it, and they managed to assault it...

Still, I knew what to expect, when he started the game by arguing the Cleanse rules with me (basic setup, not specifics), and demanded that I show him my rulebook (reading it out loud wasn't enough for him). Sadly, this was back in the days of 3rd edition, where I couldn't just convince him with the application of the hard cover of my rulebook to his face.


Oh, and I played another guy that claimed that his Blood Claw bikers got +1 attack for having a close combat weapon. Not an extra close combat weapon, just a close combat weapon... that wasn't modeled on the models. And the models were old partially painted (and armless) Death Company models on 25mm bases... and this was also a tournament...

WanderingRogue
22-03-2006, 16:11
Heard of a kid at my gamming club (got booted out before my time), that had doctored dice.

Basically he'd drilled and filled with tipex, every single "2" so it looked like a "3" (dots), so basically all his dice meant his marines hit on two's, wounded T3 models on two's, all marines had a 2+ save vs everything from a heavy bolter up etc etc. apparently he notched up a fair few wins before anyone noticed.

Brush your teeth
22-03-2006, 16:15
one thing ive had is playing against people who measure the deployment zone and deploy all their models just infront of it, then they guess where the line would go and it always squint so the deployment zone gets closer and closer to my forces

Capamaru
22-03-2006, 16:36
Some cheating I have seen and faced:

A guy claiming that his unit gets cover saves in HtH.. :confused:

The whole "measure the distance correctly thing" can get pretty annoying especially when they add the length of the vehicle in it.

"Forgeting" an inconvinient special rule.

Cheating with points in the list.

How do you deal with cheaters when you understand that they are cheating? Cause some if not all of them continue to say that what they do is correct in some if not all of the cases.

philbrad2
22-03-2006, 16:51
'Dodgy' dice rolls is a favorite I've seen. 'Stealing' the odd inche or two in movement due to "oh my minis cant stand up on this terrain ..." Played a few Nid players who have ultra tooled up Gaunts and try to pass them as having the 'Without Number' rule recently. One young gamer at Lenton tried to convince me all Tyranid creatures had 'The Horror' and an HT and Zoanthrope came fully loaded with Nid psyker powers as standard! He was soon shown the error of his ways!

The list for 40K 'cheats' I've seen across the years is long .. and distinguished!

:chrome:

Colonial Rifle
22-03-2006, 16:52
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

Wha...? It's a completely legitimate tactic and a sisters staple. The only reason it isn't used much is rhinos are death traps and it sets up up for a counter charge if the squad haven't done their job.

Happy
22-03-2006, 16:57
My favorite is the perennial dodgy dice roll

One fellow at a tourney would roll all of his dice behind his models, making it hard for his opponent to see. He'd then quickly scoop them up, and declare "made the save" or whatever.

Thoth62
22-03-2006, 17:01
How do you deal with cheaters when you understand that they are cheating? Cause some if not all of them continue to say that what they do is correct in some if not all of the cases.

Usually if I'm playing against someone who I know is cheating, or has had a reputation of cheating I'll bring it up at the beginning of the game. Just tell them that if you catch them cheating, you'll walk away. I've left games after a couple of turns because I just don't want to deal with the hassle that will inevitably turn up.

On another note, the biggest problem I had was seeing people overmeasure with their movement, and roll their dice behind terrain features where I can't see them. I've once had someone try to assault me the turn after I found out that I was outside of rapid fire range with my bolters. He claimed that he was in range but I brought up the fact that my bolters were out of range the turn before and that because of that there was absolutely no way his avatar would be able to assault. Most people now watch carefully when he moves his units.

Sir_Lunchalot
22-03-2006, 17:09
At my local GW there's not a big problem that I've noticed. I remember one game in a ladder tournament where I accidentally pulled otu the wrong list and used a 1500 point army in a 1000 point game. I won. I realised an hour after the game, and had the result of the game changed to a loss for me and a win for my opponent.

Warjammer
22-03-2006, 17:15
Knew a guy that had premeasured the length of some moles and scars on his arm. He would then proceed to select targets that just 'happened to be in range' by nonchalantly placing his arm on the table. He would pretend to be thinking. It became really bad when he started to play gaurd. His guess range weapons were always on target (3rd edition rules).
When you called him on it he would deny it of couse but there was never a way to prove it. He pulled it a lot on unsuspecting noobs.

Rypher
22-03-2006, 17:33
gaunts are s3, not s4. my opponent thought he bought the upgrade but didn't. Next game night he proceded to tell me his mistake saying "oh...yeah. i forgot they were s3. i wouldn't have COMPLETELY killed you last game."
Somehow...he manages to never fight me again...

Str10_hurts
22-03-2006, 17:47
What I realy hate is proxying models and then when its convinient saying its a lascannon or no this time its a chaos lord. Oh and forgetting there armylist.

First turn re-rolling is horrid and is used often thats why I only awnser calls that are declared.
Somehow players that are good players (above average tactical insight) never cheat as they are above this...or there that good I never noticed ;)

Darkseer
22-03-2006, 17:54
People who nudge their models forward just that extra tiny half inch or whatever. That really gets on my tits.

Unplugged
22-03-2006, 17:57
We had one guy at our game nights who used the now so called johndoe-warp-jump: Measure 6" from model at the front of the squad, move it 6", place the rest of the unit in front of it. :D
Do I need to say that he plays Blood Angels? ;)

Sanguinary
22-03-2006, 18:06
I played a Space Wolves player that had the following issues:

1.) Didn't pay for a single drop pod in his army.
2.) Had well over 700 points in stuff he didn't add up. it was a 1500 point tourney and he had about 2250.
3.) Had a rune priest that he had given the Axe of Morkai
4.) Never paid for a single piece of terminator armor for his wolf guard.

We asked why he didn't add up the points he used to buy stuff for his characters and his answer was:

"Why wouldn't they give this stuff to the guys going out to fight?"

I didn't tihnk anyone could be that stupid.

kermit
22-03-2006, 18:10
I personally like the people who have the glancing/penetrating tables "memorized". Not a problem, but when they say that X number is what they need to happen to the vehicle when you have your book open and check it... Not good...

Dice rolling, always a problem. Most people around here leave their dice down for people to see, but way back when (different store), one kid used to roll more dice than he was supposed to. This would lead him to having a better chance of getting hits. He got caught by hitting 9 times with 8 shots. A really great roll, but that kind of got people aware of his little cheats.

What I do like though, is when you go against someone you suspect of cheating and beat them. That is really funny because they can't say anything. They can recheck their army lists and try to say that they weren't running enough but when you correct them and tell them they had 200+ extra points... priceless!

asyzpkj
22-03-2006, 18:22
My gaming club has had some bad ones.

There was a guy who found out one of his dice(non-GW) was hollow and the '1' had a panel that could be removed. So he weighted the panel with a washer and some blu-tac and the dice then always rolled a six. He'd always go for that dice when he had to make armour saves for his characters or a crucial shot with a lascannon etc. By keeping his dice on his own side of the table he could more or less stop anyone else from using the dice by accident. When we found out someone threw the dice out of the window of the fourth storey room we where using at the time.

There was another guy who measured the distance from his elbow to the tip of his extended index finger, finding it to be about 24 inches I think. When he wanted a unit to shoot he'd put his elbow over the unit and point at potential targets as if deciding which to pick.

Then there were the games of inquisitor where practicaly every character spent every other turn on overwatch 'just in case' somebody came running round the corner. After watching a few of these games I bullied my way into becoming the regular gm and promptly put a stop to that nonsense.

Oh, and of course the classic crystal targeting matrix 'misunderstanding' of thinking you can move 12 inches, shoot and move 12 inches back.

I've got loads - doubling the number of shots for a twin-linked weapon AND re-rolling misses. Stretching unit coherency ridiculously far in order to avoid catching any more than one model under a blast template.

Sanguinary
22-03-2006, 19:05
Another classic one.

A guy with the Sharpshooters Doctrine though he could reroll ALL of his misses. Twin-linked guardsmen are a tough army.

Rick_1138
22-03-2006, 19:10
i got a good one, my bad like!

playing in a local tournament, 1500 pointer, had ulthwe army o-doom, lots o starcannons d-cannon seer council from hell, you know.

anyhoo, playing in the final, (prize was a limited edition space marine codex so not too bad like) i was rolling to hit with my black guardians, BS 4 yes, fine, but i was under the mistaken impression that all guardians had thw BS 4 rule, so that includes vypers and war walker right? wrong.

halfway through the final game, this was a genuine misunderstanding, as i had played a few games with the army before with experienced eldar players, who never brought this up, so i never thought to double check it.

so anyway, we played the final again from scratch, and i was very carefull to play everything correctly, getting referee decisions from staff only etc.

i did win in the end, Yay, but i did feel; bad that i was unknowingly cheating, but at least we played the final properly, but as for the earlier games, well what can you do, it was threee days before.

it was a really good game though, sisters o battle against me eldar. good fun

Grimtuff
22-03-2006, 19:12
anyhoo, playing in the final, (prize was a limited edition space marine codex so not too bad like) i was rolling to hit with my black guardians, BS 4 yes, fine, but i was under the mistaken impression that all guardians had thw BS 4 rule, so that includes vypers and war walker right? wrong.


An easy mistake to make, as in the Strike Force all Guardians are BS4, but not in the Craftworld list, only compulsary choices are.

Chem-Dog
22-03-2006, 19:13
"Idly" rolling dice and then declairing what they are for if they are good or just keep rolling "idly".

Imaginative casualty removal policy.

Jimbobjeff
22-03-2006, 19:30
Worst one Ive seen was someone claiming that wysiwyg meant that if it was shown on the model then you didnt have to pay the points for it....there are also magic measure guard who move about 9" every turn... and people rolling dice behind building so their opponent cant see them...

zendral
22-03-2006, 21:45
I run the 40k tournies where im at, and its always a hastle trying to observe games to catch ppl cheating. This usually involves me walking a fair distance away so "cheating" players in question would think i was out of earshot and thats when i catch them.....but i find that the cheating is usually faigned ignorance or used upon new players...my last tournie i caught a necron army using the geuss(forgot how to spell it) special rule exactly like rending.

Charred Remains
22-03-2006, 22:28
i had a unit of guarsmen i amazingly passed all my arour save (5+) and then he said thats not fair
How old was THAT guy? Eight years old? I'd laugh him out the door then steal his milk money.



Heard of a kid at my gamming club (got booted out before my time), that had doctored dice. Basically he'd drilled and filled with tipex, every single "2" so it looked like a "3" (dots),
This kid will be in jail someday.




Knew a guy that had premeasured the length of some moles and scars on his arm. He would then proceed to select targets that just 'happened to be in range' by nonchalantly placing his arm on the table. He would pretend to be thinking. It became really bad when he started to play gaurd. His guess range weapons were always on target
This kid will be a millionaire someday.



People who nudge their models forward just that extra tiny half inch or whatever. That really gets on my tits.
ALLRIGHT! ALLRIGHT! But it was QUARTER inch I tell ya! :evilgrin:

Snakebite
22-03-2006, 22:49
I've seen a couple of bad ones, but mostly what others have mentioned here.

In 2nd Ed., Eldar psykers not needing LoS to use their powers because they could "see" through the Warp.

And recently, a Tau army that could "see" behind hills and tanks to the lurking Whirlwind safely concealed behind them...

Bmaxwell
22-03-2006, 23:14
There was a kid at my local store that would allways put mutiple marks on his chaos lord or give them deamonic flight and deamonic speed.

I despise this kid.

Smoking Frog
22-03-2006, 23:35
I once lost a predator to a scout sergeant's melta bombs...

Then I looked in the book. It happens when you're new to the game.

But then, that same pred had destroyed almost his whole army in five turns (including a dread with twin linked lascannons that rolled 1's every time to hit my pred).

(Evil)Ash
22-03-2006, 23:49
we've got a bloke in our group (let's say his name is frank, just to keep everyone happy) who sometimes does things that seem a bit 'fishy' (mostly that's because he's playing chaos and a lot of fishy things are possible with them). And so now every time someone seems to be cheating (ofcourse not nessesarily the case) we call it 'pulling a frank'.:D

imrhati
23-03-2006, 00:14
A guy in my playing group once faced me with a chaos army, i lost horribly but i had played well and no one could explain why, then my friend challenged him the next day: he used the same amry plus his newly bought predator for the same points! WTF!

we instantly couagfht him and added up his amry to see, he had 3000+ in a 1000 point army. I felt stupid for not catching him before.

Iron Warrior
23-03-2006, 00:48
Once had a guy pick up 3 models in his left hand and put them of to his side only to have them replaced with his right hand when he thought I wasnt looking.

Convienently having 2 squads of storm troopers with 2 plasma guns each (which were not paid for)

Opponent siad he shot target X with gun A, rolls to hit/wound and I roll armor save and of course fail. Then I look at the distance and there is no way Gun A has range! I ask him to measure range and he does saying oops im out of range, but im going to keep the dice rolls, my Las cannon at your tank, I rolled a 6 to wound so thats now a 6 to pen, and I will now roll the pen result...WTF?!

Convienently forgetting the FAQ or any other rules.

The Angry Inche rule!! (Models must be at least 1 inch awar from your opponents unless assualting.)

WHo needs a force org? With correct points?

The Jump Infantry rules, no one measure correctly: 6 inches forward 8 inches back!

Direction of Scatters...people need glassess.

LOS....I see his toe and the tip of his axe. Well from this angle bent over and around the trees I see his back pack.

Yeah. Fun.

Kahadras
23-03-2006, 01:14
Very little cheating goes on in our club. Luckily it is at Uni so most people have grown out of the need to win with model soldiers. The other know that I will come down like a ton of bricks on them if I catch them. I hate cheating; it just makes the whole game pointless IMO.

Kahadras

Grand Warlord
23-03-2006, 01:26
Not adding up the points is the big one for me ... me and 2 friend were playing agianst 3 players we didnt know (also all friends) and it was meant to be 1500 (1 force org) vs 1500 (1 force org) but somehow they managed to add 1000 points of grey knight terminators and the nasty orbital thing, like ap3 ordinance blast thingy i dont remember ... we got a draw ... we wondered why the left so fast ... and they left their list behind.

Being a rules lawyer, just so i know whats legal and whats not ... not meaning to find loopholes, I can fingure out most of those kind and beat them with a bat .. sometimes protected with foam.

bigbauske
23-03-2006, 01:45
I think the most childish ones are the majic tapes measures and the unseen dice, Good thing those guys do not last long around my group.

skyfyre
23-03-2006, 02:38
The most common one I've seen is the "front to back" movement. Basically measuring from the front of a model, say a land speeder, and then moving it say 12" but with the back of the model touching the 12" mark. Lets you eck out a few more inches of movement every turn, especially when it looks close. I'm always careful not to measure this way but if you don't pay attention its an easy one that can be done, either on accident or intentionally.

Ozeor
23-03-2006, 04:30
Having my hive tyrant shred thru a marine command squad, he had 2 guys left and i did 4 wounds, which he said went to the sargent left since the commander is an idependent char. I was pretty ticked off, even when they he called a red shirt over and he agreed with him.

I got my revenge, had my nids run amok thru his lines after my tyrant was finished eating the commander.

emperorattack
23-03-2006, 04:38
Once I played this guy and he used 2000 pts in a 500 pt battle so 2000 and 500 IG not cool

vincengetorix
23-03-2006, 05:21
Microwaved dice. Very imaginative, very McGyver, very painful.

The "my foot and your face" part is painful anyway.

Capamaru
23-03-2006, 05:34
I believe that if someone has used more than 500 points of staff and you have read his army codex you can more or less find out that he is cheating. If you havent read his codex then you are in trouble. 1000 points of cheating and above then you have to be insane if you dont notice.

neXus6
23-03-2006, 05:37
Mind you there are some armies that have next to nothing in them model wise yet costs 1500pts, it can be hard to tell sometimes. :p

Capamaru
23-03-2006, 05:40
I said if you have read the codex... didnt I? And then again it can still be tricky.

Insane Alex
23-03-2006, 05:44
At least it's not 2nd Ed. o_o

The 6 Terminator Army, anyone?

hootier
23-03-2006, 06:22
Having my hive tyrant shred thru a marine command squad, he had 2 guys left and i did 4 wounds, which he said went to the sargent left since the commander is an idependent char. I was pretty ticked off, even when they he called a red shirt over and he agreed with him.

I got my revenge, had my nids run amok thru his lines after my tyrant was finished eating the commander.

Sorry man, but that's not cheating. That's exactly how the rule is supposed to work.

Lame Duck
23-03-2006, 08:07
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

Yes you can, no doubt about it, ' passenger may disembark after the vehicle moves no MORE than 12" '

Eulenspiegel
23-03-2006, 08:34
(...) and turn the rhino 180 so its back is facing the enemy. Now I can deploy my marines 2" from the back door and well within the 12" rapid fire range if my opponent is right on the edge of his deployment zone. Cheating? Beardy? (...)
Completely legitimate. Iīve seen this done quite often and have done it myself.

we instantly couagfht him and added up his amry to see, he had 3000+ in a 1000 point army. I felt stupid for not catching him before.
:wtf: As well you should!
;)

Basically he'd drilled and filled with tipex, every single "2" so it looked like a "3" (dots), so basically all his dice meant his marines hit on two's, wounded T3 models on two's, all marines had a 2+ save vs everything from a heavy bolter up etc etc. apparently he notched up a fair few wins before anyone noticed.
That is so ... low! Utterly despicable for the fact that itīs very, very hard to get behind that trick.

/em nonchalantly wanders off to look for drill and dice

-Mysterious
23-03-2006, 09:45
I remember one game in a ladder tournament where I accidentally pulled otu the wrong list and used a 1500 point army in a 1000 point game. I won. I realised an hour after the game, and had the result of the game changed to a loss for me and a win for my opponent.

I had kind of same experience,
I was playing a ladder game, and I pulled my 1500pt list out only to find it was 1000pt game, after about 3 hours I realised what had happened when I was reviewing the game, because I had different names for my list's, and when I realised what list was on the ladder, I found my opponent, told him, he said it was fine because even if he did win he couldn’t play the next game as he had to go to his dads( parents separated) , so I brought him a WD a drink and a bag of doughnuts, and he was a happy trooper.

Also 2 games after that (same ladder) a guy moved his leman Russ 24 inches saying he though range meant movement :eyebrows:
My main problem with that was I didn't know the range of a leman Russ at the time so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
He also said guard’s men get 3 shots each for rapid fire... he road that one off saying he thought 2+ means 1+2........

I eventually smashed his army.
With a very nice victory, and winning a WD :)

commisar klink
23-03-2006, 15:10
The worst cheats are "Dice Mechanics" who have mastered the art of rolling a dice to have a high percentage chacne of getting the number they want. The fact that this skill is out there is the reason casino's require thier patrons to bounce dice off of a surface rather than directly throwing them onto the table.

You run into "dice mechanics" a lot at the GT level of play. And it really sucks to travel thousands of miles to a GT and loose a game because some one is a Dice cheat.

To prevent this Grand Tournement organizers should require all dice throws be made using a dice cup.

Dice dropers are also a problem people who have mastered the art of distracting you while droping rather than throwing thier dice. Sucks to have someone drop a dice with a six whenever they need it. Some folks are real blatent about this one.
.

Another thing that is a real problem are people who use weighted dice/ shaved dice.

At high levels of play you need to suspect anyone who pulls put the "One Special Die" for critical rolls.

To prevent this event organizers need to supply dice and dice cups to end what is the worst form of cheating in both fantasy and 40K.

Outside of the dice issue the other is "Stratiegic Scoring" ie screwing your opponent on painting comp and sportsmanship to advance your own sportsmanship,comp and painting score. GW has had a real problem with this at the GT level especially when at times a group of gamers will work together at this. Where over the course of six games a group of 3 players can screw up the scores of 33% of the players at a 60 person GT and thus artificially inflate there own scores putting themselves into the upper brackets as happened at the first Seattle GT

Rabid Bunny 666
23-03-2006, 15:22
one of my mates rolls a "1" for his Marshall's armour save against a Krak Rocket

"passed"

he would have gotten away with it too, but another one of my mates saw it

Thoth62
23-03-2006, 15:29
I have a friend who plays SM's and whenever his Termies are called on to make armour saves, he rolls the dice, and then without even looking says, "All made." Predictably, 3 out of the 5 that he rolled were ones. It's more a case of over confidence then cheating, mostly because he doesn't try and pick up the dice right away. In our gaming club, we've come to the agreement that the opponent has to be able to see and acknowledge the results of the roll before the dice are scooped up. It has definitely helped greatly when it comes to catching cheaters. There were a few members who's average roll number of hits, and made armour saves showed a marked decrease.

Gabekun
23-03-2006, 16:35
Worst cases around my area:

"Surfing": People moving the measuring tape while they move their models, so that 6" move suddenly turns into 9"...

Front-to-back: People measuring from the front of their base to the back of their base, bascially getting an extra base-length of movement.

Not measuring: people who are sure their units have assault range, but rather than measuring to make sure, just move the models in. My tyrant got charged by scarabs who I would bet money on were atleast 9" away, but did the kid measure for assault? Nope... just move them up quickly. I didn't bother confronting him, because I knew he would just move them back to a point where they were still within charge range and say "See?".

One time we had a deathwing player who had a large squad of termis scatter onto an enemy tank. He proceeded to place the models on top of the tank, claiming they weren't destroyed, but instead immediately assaulted the vehicle. His justification? "I did it at a GT and they didn't say I couldn't!"

Otherwise, most "cheating" here is just honest mistakes.

Exploited
23-03-2006, 16:49
aye, around my area (northumberland uk) there are several gaming clubs, cheating varies from the blatant to the psychological.
a blood angels player i know maintained that his squads could charge in practically opposite directions, provided at the end of the combat all moved into coherency.

he stopped doing that when i started packing nothing but plasma
this same player also likes to make minor changes to the games rules, mainly beneficial, but actually makes it convincing enough that someone who does not have encyclopeadic knowledge of the rules would be buggered... unfortunatly for him, i eat rulebooks and codicies for breakfast.

on the other side of things, we had an unfortunate session at the gaming club in alnwick, an invitational tournament with set rules.

these set rules applied to everyone but the tournament organiser, who we are damned sure was just after a quick buck... but his cheating involved almost blatently changing doctrines between games depending on who he was playing against - and while he had everyone elses list, no one could see his.

another common cheat i was the victim of there was rolling dice behind buildings - a practice enjoyed by several of their members, but which promptly stopped when i realised he had gotten 12 rending hits out of 15 attacks... and i promplty made 12 5+ invulnerable saves using the same method he used... and he had the nerve to have a go at me, we then re-rolled everything in a seperate box and his ability to rend dropped immediatly... also there are broblems with unreadable dice, they just irritate me and i will even insist that they use my gw standdard d6 in place of their tiny speckled ones of unreadablness

Adept
23-03-2006, 16:53
You run into "dice mechanics" a lot at the GT level of play. And it really sucks to travel thousands of miles to a GT and loose a game because some one is a Dice cheat.

Outside of the dice issue the other is "Stratiegic Scoring" ie screwing your opponent on painting comp and sportsmanship to advance your own sportsmanship,comp and painting score. GW has had a real problem with this at the GT level especially when at times a group of gamers will work together at this. Where over the course of six games a group of 3 players can screw up the scores of 33% of the players at a 60 person GT and thus artificially inflate there own scores putting themselves into the upper brackets as happened at the first Seattle GT

This kind of thing is in such a tiny, tiny minority that it isn't worth mentioning. GT's a great events, literally over-flowing with great players, to whom the concept of 'dice mechanics' or chipmunking peoples scores is revolting. I suggest you get out and play in some more GT's. You won't be dissapointed.

Acolyte
23-03-2006, 17:04
No offense intended, but how the hell do you guys miss 1000+ advantages in an enemy army? An extra squad or two, I can understand. But 1000 points?

commisar klink
23-03-2006, 17:18
I have played in 7 GTs How many have you played in? I have run into at least 1 dice cheat at each so statistically 5 to 10% of the players at that level may be doing something funny with dice.

Also Stratigic Scoring is aproblem at even the local tourney level where players will screw thier opponet for beating them

Shockwave
23-03-2006, 17:30
There was another guy who measured the distance from his elbow to the tip of his extended index finger, finding it to be about 24 inches I think. When he wanted a unit to shoot he'd put his elbow over the unit and point at potential targets as if deciding which to pick. Apparantly the Italain game designer that wrote the Skaven army was known and caught doing that. I've also heard that the italian's are some of the worst to play against at GT's

Stretching unit coherency ridiculously far in order to avoid catching any more than one model under a blast template. You are aware that (at least with the large one) at maximum coherency you are only just touch by the template?

Sir_Lunchalot
23-03-2006, 17:33
guys exploiting unit coherency are east to get at. assault them. then you've got your models (in tight formation) outnumbering his fighting models by 10-2 or 10-3 and he's gonna be hurting!

kermit
23-03-2006, 17:39
Well I am guilty of "cheating" though... but I attribute it GW continually changing codexes / army books. But, once I know that rules have changed, then I tell eveyone that I play with and I stop using the rules the way I used them to the new "right" way.

Just so you know that not everyone here is innocent with never cheating ever!

Ardathair
23-03-2006, 18:24
Just so you know that not everyone here is innocent with never cheating ever!

We have a difference of definitions. A mistake is a mistake. Cheating is deliberate as far as I'm concerned.

Now if you chose to use old rules after a new Codex or Army book came out to get an advantage that would be cheating. Not using latest FAQ or errata because you did know about it is not cheating.

Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone cheats. Unfortunately too many choose to.

kermit
23-03-2006, 18:28
Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone cheats. Unfortunately too many choose to.


Well said!

burn_the_heretics
23-03-2006, 18:42
I didn't participate in this game, but I saw some really bad cheating in it. The kroot mercenary player said:

"I only have 500pts of stuff, and your using 1000pts against me".

The Space Marine player said:

"so what?".

:wtf: He collects Kroot Mercenaries and the Marine player couldn't cut him some slack? And it was blatent cheating aswell...

Needless to say, the Marine player won.

emperorpenguin
23-03-2006, 18:48
once lost most of a squad of Thousand Sons terminators to a basilisk shot in the crucial final battle of a campaign. Just couldn't pass enough invulnerable saves
only after the game did I learn that the basilisk isn't AP2 as my opponent told me....:(

he was also notorious for using proxies, lascannons would represnt flamers, flamers represent plasmas and matchsticks were lascannons (no exaggeration!) He'd back all this up by ranting that GW were over-priced rip-offs and he couldn't afford the correct figures
.....then he went and bought a forgeworld baneblade.... :eyebrows:

HPD_Andy
23-03-2006, 19:00
Speed rollers. Fist full of dice, fist full of, fist full of dice..."Ok I moved, fleet of foot, hot-hit, to-wound and you need to remove four models"

transorD
23-03-2006, 19:14
I don't understand how so many people seem to be getting oversized armies into tournament play.

Any tournament I've ever played required that you provide a copy of your roster to the tourney officials, as well as have an additional printed copy with you.



On topic, I've never, to the best of my knowledge, been cheated against (knock on wood).

The fact that so many people seem to be doing it, though, bothers me. It's not so important a game to me that I would feel the need to cheat and win. I have no problem with the fact that I lose most of my games, because I'm having a great time with my friends and fellow gamers while doing it.

imrhati
23-03-2006, 19:28
cheaters in my experience come from families that spoil their children. the children meet life and find out they can't win everything so try to rig it so that they can. ****EN CHEATERS!

Ardathair
23-03-2006, 19:35
Any tournament I've ever played required that you provide a copy of your roster to the tourney officials, as well as have an additional printed copy with you.

True, but too often the officials only glance at the army lists trusting that the players are honest. They use the lists more to go back and check ofter someone has voiced concerns.

I've seen a player with 2 terminator squads of 5 men on his army list, put down 3 squads of 7 terminators, doubling the number and since the officials only looked at the army list and didn't pay attention to what he actually used he almost got away with it. Not everyone mistook his Veteran squad for a tactical squad and 4 elite choices on the table busted him.

marv335
23-03-2006, 19:41
when i enter a tourney, i provide each of my opponents with a printed copy of my list.

Aekold
23-03-2006, 19:44
Ohh i hate cheaters. We had such a player in our group. He was a complete *******. So everybody stopped playin him. Then he left his bad painted **** stuff and funny looking proxy models at our club. so everyone had a good time gluing all his models under the table! upside down.....he complained that he couldnt find his models.....hahaha

x-esiv-4c
23-03-2006, 19:49
Ohh i hate cheaters. We had such a player in our group. He was a complete *******. So everybody stopped playin him. Then he left his bad painted **** stuff and funny looking proxy models at our club. so everyone had a good time gluing all his models under the table! upside down.....he complained that he couldnt find his models.....hahaha

Regardless, that is a bit of a dick thing to do.

Kahadras
23-03-2006, 19:53
Poor measuring is the worst I've seen at our club (that I know of). An Ork player was the worst for it. He would move his fist model about 7 inches (waving the tape measure near it to try to convince you that he has measured the distance) Then move everything else up about an inch beyond the first model (so the squad moves 8 not 6). Same for vehicles as well, wave the tape measure near the tank, then move it however far he felt he could get away with.
Eventualy I got annoyed so stopped him half way through him moving one of his units and measure the distance that he was moving (turned out to be almost 9 inches).
While I don't particularly mind if someone wants to beat me that bad that they start fudging stuff but I do object when they start doing in right in front of me. At least they could wait till I popped to the toilet or was off helping someone else :mad:

Kahadras

Evilhomer
23-03-2006, 20:24
Round my local area (NW England) the simplest thing is often the hardest- movement... so many people pick up models, measure 6" but move the range ruler at the same time, so the mini's end up moving in excess of 8". Blood Angel players were notorious during 3rd edition for this (especially with black rage, and guys with jump packs).

People moving through terrain as well.. moving "around" the difficult terrain so they don't have to roll for the distance - despite the fact the route they've taken requires a terrain test... crazy...

I agree... the worst players do tend to be the boistrous, big headed gits, who refuse even to budge a little bit when disputes come up. One guy sticks in my head.. adding dice together for difficult terrain on his mega-armoured nobs (vroooooom....).... tank traps being impassable to infantry.... refusing to take terrain tests for bikes going over difficult terrain (and when he eventually relented with 3 players telling him, he refused to take off the bikes that died)... all sorts of shadey madness.

2nd edition with space wolf players (who shall remain nameless) ignoring the FAQ and revision that stated wolf guard could not have both an assault cannon AND a cyclone... and marine players "getting mixed up" with radius and diameter for the cyclone (the 12" tactical nuke pie-plate)...:)

oh yeah, 3rd edition inter-store tourny- the cell/regional manager claiming you can't move off a 1 tier hill because "its a bloody mountain 100ft high"... (fast) vehicles moving 24" as the crow flies, yet not taking any difficult terrain tests...

I very, very, VERY rarely play 40k these days - too much of the above has driven me to dislike playing alot. These days I only paint :)

darknar
23-03-2006, 20:53
people not reading the rulebook properly, i dont mind cheaters, i usually beat them, becuase once i realise the person is cheating(usuaually due to movement) i come down hard on every rule imaginable and more of the rulebook.

most of the time we are a little tooleniant when playing 40k at my local GW, but if sombody cheats i work out what rules will be a disadvatage to him and try to use those rules against him, then he disagrees i proptly get the wedgerulebook out and show him the rule.

also what i hate is people claiming they can always see skimmers, even behind that foot tall building 9" tall even head office has got that wrong so all of you read page 61 of the rulebook read the skimmers paragrath 12 rimes then tell me i cant hide my devilfish behind a wood of hight 3


also its the person that claims that my devilfish does not gain the glacing only ability when it moves over 6 because its not a fast vehicle

read page 69 for that one

there is also the problem is that people keep forgetting that infentry are hight 2 not 1

i think that there really should be a weakly question compotition the person that gets highest wins a white drawth or somin, coz im fed up with people not knowing the rules.




oh and twhat i really hate is people swapping his plasmagunner armound with a normal trooper when it dies so it stays in coherency or those people who dont take casultys from bses to base contact first in close combat, look all these up and you will see that so many people dont know the rules.

sorry i ranted a bit much

Adept
26-03-2006, 14:10
I have played in 7 GTs How many have you played in? I have run into at least 1 dice cheat at each so statistically 5 to 10% of the players at that level may be doing something funny with dice.

Also Stratigic Scoring is aproblem at even the local tourney level where players will screw thier opponet for beating them

You, sir, live in Gamer Hell, and I pity you.

Such occurances are a freakish abnormality here.

Rabid Bunny 666
26-03-2006, 14:21
The rolling one die at a time thing is really low. But the picking up misses doesn't change a whole lot. If you have a lot of dice, it's easy to leave a few misses in the lot.


i usually do the one dice thing for saving throws when a lone model is getting futtbucked in combat, like my Wolflord against 20 Hormugaunts, taking 13 saves rolled individually. i don't know why, it just seems luckier

dark angel
26-03-2006, 14:37
just recently this lad has been coming to my local club and he is a 1st class cheat:
1:he doesent write army lists so there for he can get away with having points over (against my bro 1k yes 1k over points(my bro is a noobie))
2:models hav about 7 weapons each according to him
3:he deploys basically in the middle of the table
4:he does the slight of hand thing(we are all getting used to it)
5:he thinks rhinoes have front armour 13 and he does the same for a few vehichles

and theres more but i cant be bothered to write them but i dont think he should be playing if i cant play fair

simonr1978
26-03-2006, 16:20
So why don't you insist he bring an army list? Even in a small army strictly conforming to WYSIWYG I don't see how he can have memorised his army list faultlessly. Refuse to play him unless he brings an army list that is available for inspection and that's the problem solved. Warn any new guys about him too.

Corporal Chaos
26-03-2006, 16:40
I kinda cheated swearing that my Iron Wolf Amulet was 2+ inv save. Then I read the description after being challenged and found it was a 4+. Didn't mean to cheat but did it by wishful thinking. LOL:rolleyes:

Master Jeridian
26-03-2006, 17:32
Not so much cheating, but it is irritating.

-Telling me to take Morale tests for taking 25% casualties "because I've finished shooting at them", then, depending on whether I run or not, conveniently remember you want to shoot some more at them. May even try to get me to take another test if I suffer casualties.
Suffice to say I'll take my tests at the end of the shooting phase as according to the rules.

-Not knowing even the most basic rules but having absolute confidence in your knowledge of the rules. A nasty and irritating combination.


The usual cheats are fun:

-Rapid Dice rolling.
-Hitting previous rolled dice with the next batch to improve score.
-Inability to see the Scatter dice arrow.
-Leapfrog movement- front to back of base.

The problem with cheaters and cheating is that it's almost impossible to prove they cheated and so near pointless to bring it up- so they get away with it.

Hence my favourite cheat,
deployment at more than 24" away, or your previous shooting at more than 12", etc. Then in your opponent's turn he manages to charge more than 12" or shoot 24" guns on the first turn. The look on the cheats face when he realises he can't defeat your logical argument that he shouldn't be in range yet miraculously is- that's priceless.

WLBjork
26-03-2006, 20:33
Had one of our members turn up with a new pack of dice.

Turned out they were "joke" dice, scoring 1,2,3,6,6,6.

Been up against the over-sized armies (although usually we let our opponent know beforehand)

As for the super-fast die rolling, we insist that:
All dice must be rolled, not dropped.
All failed rolls are removed, and you get your opponent to check them over before shifting them.

When it comes to the scatter rolls, I try to roll as close to the initial point as possible - it's easier to line up that way.

Stewie
26-03-2006, 21:14
I not sure this is cheating or not. But I get tired of reminding my opponent' sto take a Morale check after they take 25% shooting casualties. The worst players for this rules are SM & necron players. " I don't need to worry I have a leadership of 10". Just Because you have a leadership of 10 you can still fail.
sorry for the rant

unforgiven555
26-03-2006, 22:57
Just Because you have a leadership of 10 you can still fail.

About 8% of the time; still a decent chance. You should always check all rules - no matter how unlikely - games tend to balance themselves out when you do.

Lord Humongous
26-03-2006, 23:44
I not sure this is cheating or not. But I get tired of reminding my opponent' sto take a Morale check after they take 25% shooting casualties.

I know I do honestly forget. I've mostly played World Eaters. Most of my units are fearless, and I don't do much shooting, so its just not a rule I've got wired into my habitual play. I'm sure when I switch over to occasionally playing LaTD, it looks quite bad...
I'm not saying its unimportant- even in a WE army, it could certainly affect some of my units (demonic instability comes to mind) and I do occasionally get good shots in off one of my vehicles. When playing LaTD, its a HUGE consideration, but again- just not in my brain most times.
In both cases, I'd hope I'd remember it, but would be happy for a little "help" with this one rule.

neXus6
26-03-2006, 23:52
I think not reading your codex right and getting something totally wrong is one of the most annoying cases of "allowed cheating." The only excuse would be a complete inabbility to read and not many people who play can't read, yes some books have little rules that are annoyingly hidden away missing those are forgivable, but missing something blatant about your army, particularly when it promptly helps you crosses the line into cheating in my opinion.

Eldartank
27-03-2006, 02:43
I'd comment on the fast dice rollers, the "leapfrog movers," the front-to-back measurers, and so on, but everyone else has already commented on those type of jerks.

************************

One person at my local gaming store a few years ago was NOTORIOUS for rolling the dice and then snatching them up IMMEDIATELY after rolling them. He seemed to make a disproportionately high amount of armor saves, and the majority of his models always hit when shooting - and his scatter dice usually got direct hits or went exactly in the direction he wanted.

So I finally made it clear to him at the start of the next game I played against him - If he did the "roll and snatch" thing, then EVERY roll would count as a complete miss. And I vigorously enforced this rule, backed up by everyone else who was present at the store at the time. When one of his squads missed EVERY SINGLE SHOT, and then one of his squads failed EVERY SINGLE ARMOR SAVE, he was finally broken of the "roll and snatch" habit. After that, his dices rolls seemed to be just like everyone else's.

*************************************

In one abortive game I played, my opponent rolled his scatter dice on the opposite end of the table from where his guess range weapon hit. Then he proceeded to move the template in a very different direction from what the scatter dice indicated. When I argued about it, he insisted he was moving the template in the direction of the scatter dice. Upon further argument, he decided to "prove" that he was right by picking up the scatter dice and moving it next to the template, and of course he very clearly turned the dice around so that it was in the direction he wanted. I just ended that game and packed up my models.

************************************************** *

Then there was the Space Marine player who insisted that the Hive Tyrant "causes fear" because of the Hive Tyrant's "The Horror" rule. He interpreted this to mean that any time the Hive Tyrant assaulted a unit, then it "caused fear," meaning that the assaulted unit would have to make a morale test, and fall back from the Hive Tyrant if it failed the morale test. And he insisted that because this was a "cause fear" rule rather than losing a combat, the Hive Tyrant COULD NOT attempt to catch the fleeing unit. At the time, we were using the optional rule where you could voluntarily fail a leadership test. So if we went along with this guy's claim, that would mean the Hive Tyrant was pretty much rendered useless, and basically was UNABLE to ever assault and get into close combat (something for which the Hive Tyrant was specifically designed).
By some miracle, this guy did not end up getting the Hive Tyrant model shoved up his posterior opening and twisted around, thereby mangling his innards.....

:D

viperidae99
27-03-2006, 04:51
I love the people who ask you what THEY need to hit/save etc. and you're not sure perhaps, so you say "Im pretty sure it's a 4, hang on I'll check", they roll the dice and go "Sweet, all 8 dice hit!" and then you check and say "Sorry, I was wrong, it's actually a 5 you need, so 2 dice hit".

Then they go "What! You told me 4! I'm rerolling". Hey...buddy...

IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU NEED?!!!?! CHECK YOURSELF!!

Added to which, what you need doesn't change what you rolled! I can just see on a distant battlefield, tyranids storming a bunker of marines, marines open fire but haven't loaded yet: "WAIT! DO-OVER! I FORGOT TO LOAD!"

I have a feeling they would be well-eaten.

Grrr....

neXus6
27-03-2006, 04:54
Now better they ask you and you tell them than they ASSUME a stat, cause they've not read their book but have heard it's such and such, and just go right ahead kicking your **** cause they hit more often or save more often or whatever. :p

Plus that's alright for a starting player, I'll grant you that players who are just stupid asking you it all the time are annoying.

-Mysterious
27-03-2006, 05:01
I love the people who ask you what THEY need to hit/save etc. and you're not sure perhaps, so you say "Im pretty sure it's a 4, hang on I'll check", they roll the dice and go "Sweet, all 8 dice hit!" and then you check and say "Sorry, I was wrong, it's actually a 5 you need, so 2 dice hit".

Then they go "What! You told me 4! I'm rerolling". Hey...buddy...

IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU NEED?!!!?! CHECK YOURSELF!!


I'm guilty of this,
I understand how you calculate hits.
Just take away the BS from 7....

But I don't understand the wound chart.... I have had a 3 store members try to explain. I stood in the store for an hour and a half reading the darn rule book and I still don't understand.

Cthulhu 2.0
27-03-2006, 05:07
I think this is just human nature kicking in.

Rikkjourd
27-03-2006, 13:57
Faced a really irritating opponent once, that was always measuring first, then putting away the tape and moved. Needless to say, his moves were always off the mark. The most annoying part was the he was REALLY nice, so I didn't want to accuse him of cheating =/

I have a regular opponent which I have a special system with. I make my list, then I help him make his. This is because he is always over the points limit, and since he claims it is mistakes, he cannot deny me to "help" him correct them. I've never ever seen him "remember" to pay for lascannon side sponsons on his pred.

In my last game my opponent tried a few LOS tricks. First he shot a squad, and when I moved up another one to the same location, he claimed that I didn't have LOS back to him! Second, he said he deployed a squad in a forest, when he put them there. When I wanted to shoot them he claimed that they were in fact just one millimeter behind the forest, so there was no LOS. Then, after pulling this trick, he appearantly had no problem shooting with the squad through the forest!

I got back at him though, because he had recently played Dawn of War and got the idea that ML/AC dreads(venerable) cannot fight in close combat. So he parked his tooled up 10-man all S4 command squad in front of it =P Needless to say, they were not going anywhere soon.

Kahadras
27-03-2006, 15:10
That always annoys me when its one thing for your opponant yet another for you. We once had soem craters strewn around this area. After consulatation we decided to call it open ground. My opponant then insists I take difficult terrain tests when moving my infantry squad through it. I later caught him moving through the same piece of terrain with a transport. Then it appears that it IS open ground just like we agreed at the start of the game. :confused:

Kahadras

Murrithius
27-03-2006, 15:31
You can't move 12 inches and dismount a transport unless its open topped I believe. So I don't see it working. Unless of course its an LR.

Wrong I'm afraid. There seems to be a lot of this "you can only do this or that if you move 11 inches". Troops may disembark from a vehicle provided it has moved no FURTHER than 12". This stops people jumping their Storm Guardians with 2 fusion guns out of a falcon that has just moved 24"! Course, you cant assault unless it's open topped...

the hivemind
27-03-2006, 16:13
or it has an exeption to the rules, like being a landraider. then u can move 12 and charge

Grimtuff
27-03-2006, 16:20
...How many times has that post been replied to?

It was clarified on about page 3 :rolleyes:

the hivemind
27-03-2006, 16:25
i know, we never learn:D

Eulenspiegel
27-03-2006, 16:36
Grimtuff made a mistake, everybody stand in line to rub it in!

114th Valhallan
27-03-2006, 16:41
-The movement of squads. Guy measures the front unit and moves him 6" and then moves the squads right around him beyond their own 6 inches. I wish we had some sort of unit base where they would all be based on top.

-Not knowing the strengths of their own weapons.

Grimtuff
27-03-2006, 16:47
Grimtuff made a mistake, everybody stand in line to rub it in!


Firstly I pray that was sarcasm.
Secondly It was Azimath that said it (Unless said original reply was not on page 3)

I await you taunts Grotsnik ;)

slickbetty69
27-03-2006, 18:21
I like the wargear and vehicle options that show up when needed. In 2nd it was the ablative armor that was on every tank just never paid for. In 3rd it was extra armor.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-03-2006, 18:40
Eldar Rangers, with the AP1 shots miraculously wounding every time....

Being *just out* of Rapid Fire range with my Fire Warriors, only for them to be assaulted in my opponents turn.

Thats about it really. Thankfully, I play with mostly mature gamers.

Shockwave
27-03-2006, 20:26
Not so much cheating, but it is irritating.

-Telling me to take Morale tests for taking 25% casualties "because I've finished shooting at them", then, depending on whether I run or not, conveniently remember you want to shoot some more at them. May even try to get me to take another test if I suffer casualties.
Suffice to say I'll take my tests at the end of the shooting phase as according to the rules.
While you are totally correct in the way you do it. I play it the other way (though i don't re-shoot at the unit, not without permission anyway) because i find that people "forget" to take morale checks, or have already taken them....

Hence my favourite cheat,
deployment at more than 24" away, or your previous shooting at more than 12", etc. Then in your opponent's turn he manages to charge more than 12" or shoot 24" guns on the first turn. The look on the cheats face when he realises he can't defeat your logical argument that he shouldn't be in range yet miraculously is- that's priceless.This is my favourite cheat to catch people at. I even take to measuring the width of new tables i play one so that i know how wide they are so I don't get caught by a thin table.

unforgiven555
28-03-2006, 03:50
But I don't understand the wound chart.... I have had a 3 store members try to explain. I stood in the store for an hour and a half reading the darn rule book and I still don't understand.

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm, but reply anyways. It's pretty simple really:

If your strength is lower than your opponent's toughness:
by 1 you need a 5+ to wound (so your strength - opponent's toughness)
by 2 you need a 6+ to wound
by 3 you need a 6+ to wound

If your strength is equal to your opponent's toughness:
you need a 4+ to wound

If your strength is greater than your opponent's toughness:
by 1 you need a 3+ to wound
by 2 or more you need a 2+ to wound

It's pretty simple: (Toughness - Strength) + 4 is the value you must roll equal to or above. You can never need lower than 2; higher than 6 and if your strength is lower than your opponent's toughness by 4 + you're screwed.

Ouroboros
28-03-2006, 05:27
There's this kid that's been coming around recently and doing inordinately well against all the other new players in my area.

I recently figured out it's because he's always in range.

It doesn't matter if he's supposed to be 18" when he infiltrates, he'll walk up and RF you, it doesn't matter if you couldn't RF him last turn, you're getting charged etc.

He's really young and I figure most people think he just does it unintentionally but I'm not so sure anymore. Other new players don't have the rules know how or confidence to catch the things he does or correct him when he makes these "mistakes" so they get stomped.

Bob Hunk
28-03-2006, 07:44
Not really any cheating in our current group as we're a mature bunch, but I have to recount my favourite tale of bad-play from 2nd edition back when were were 16...

I was allied with a friend, 2k Chaos + 2k Chaos VS 4k Eldar, and our Eldar playing friend had a bit of a reputation for "dubious" practises. Anyway, in those days the Wailing Doom (Avatar's sword) could fire some sort of energy beam that was like a lascannon, and he decided to take a shot at a dreadnaught, or tank or whatever. So he rolls the dice, and misses.
"*****!" he says.
Then suddenly he snatches up the dice and starts saying "Yes! I hit, I hit!"
I exchange glances my team mate.
"Erm, no you didn't, it was a one, we both saw it," we reply. A fifteen minute argument then ensues as he swears blind that he did hit, despite swearing at the roll, and us both witnessing it! In the end we agreed to dice-off for it; on a 4+ he did hit. He then rolled another one and spent the rest of the game sulking about how we cheated him out of his hit. :rolleyes:

Ah, just remembered another example, while introducing a brand new player to the game, he told them that all their troops had meltaguns and meltapistols. Obviously this would have been a great help to the newbie, as all his troops had really powerful weapons, except for the fact that the cheater's army included the Avatar again, which in those days was immune to all melta and flamer based weapons... :rolleyes:

Dark-Hummingbird
28-03-2006, 10:12
A guy once had a fit over the injustice of his codex! We spent half an hour explaining that the codex was balanced and that he couldn't 'make' his Farseer T6!

Cheesejoff
28-03-2006, 10:22
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm, but reply anyways. It's pretty simple really...


A slightly easier explanation:

If you have the same strength as your opponents toughness, you need a 4+.
Now if his toughness is one above yours, you need to roll one higher than 4+ so you need to roll 5+
If his toughness is one less then yours, you need to roll one less than a 4 so you need to roll 3+.

Basically whatever their toughness is above your strength, that makes you add one onto what you need to roll, and the opposite goes for one lower.

So for example, S8 vs T6 is a difference of 2. So you need to roll 2 less than a 4.

4-2 = 2

You need to roll a 2.

Master Jeridian
28-03-2006, 10:38
Your not really expected to memorise reams of data.
Just to bring a Rulebook, a mini-Rulebook, or a reference sheet to your games.

treesing
28-03-2006, 17:39
ive been going to this club called stags and this boy who plays tau and deamon hunters challenged my necrons and won because he didnt have an army list and he wouldnt show me the dice rolls so do you think thats is a bit harsh?

Jimbobjeff
28-03-2006, 17:53
seriously! he didnt show you his dice! id suggest you stop playing him....or hit him with a big stick until he agrees to show you...

Red Eyes
28-03-2006, 18:53
Apparantly the Italain game designer that wrote the Skaven army was known and caught doing that. I've also heard that the italian's are some of the worst to play against at GT's

Well, I'm actually Italian, still not a player as I just joined the hobby. I hope that's not true because I want to play just for fun and cheaters make the game frustrating. Anyway what you are saying is discriminatory and goes against the rules of the forum. And if it doesn't it should. Where are the mods?

RE

ps
just for you to know, an Italian was second in the last ukgt, and with full sportmanship score.

static grass
28-03-2006, 19:19
Well Alesso wrote the skaven armybook and based on that I would say he is a total cheat.

Claiming Italains (italians?) are some of the worst cheats is not fair though. On the basis of this thread there are plenty of Brit/US/OZ/NZ ones too.

Lostanddamned
28-03-2006, 19:24
That is very harsh indeed, if you cant win without cheating like that- lose, improve your game somehow and then come back to give him his a$$ on a plate (metaphoricly, human rump stake is discoraged).

Grimtuff
28-03-2006, 20:00
Well, I'm actually Italian, still not a player as I just joined the hobby. I hope that's not true because I want to play just for fun and cheaters make the game frustrating. Anyway what you are saying is discriminatory and goes against the rules of the forum. And if it doesn't it should. Where are the mods?


Discriminatory? Yes. Slanderous? No. He said "heard" though the remark may be out of place it's not a flat out statement that calls all Italian gamers jerks.

I too have heard this about Allessio, so the comments are not entirely made up.

-Mysterious
29-03-2006, 03:53
Thank you to the two that explained the wound chart to me...
It is very simple,
Now I know thanks again.

StMachiavelli
29-03-2006, 04:16
Back in October, a group of co-workers used to play 40k in 40 minutes with at lunch put together a "Reaver Fest", where one of the players (we'll call him Eldar, because thats what he normaly played) built a mockup of our work campus and converted some IG to Zombies/Reaver's (WS:6 BS:2 S:6 T:2 W:2 I:1 A:2 Ld:6 Sv: 5i War gear: bionics, bolt pistol, power weapon Fearless Gain no bonus attack for charging Reavers must make a leadership test or move/charge d6 inches towards the nearest "human" Reavers must make a leadership test to fire their weapon Characters killed by a Reaver become a Reaver on a 4+ on a d6.)

We get started, and another player, lets call him 'Nid because normally that is what he plays gets lucky (sixes twice in a row to start play). 'Nid walks into the corridor where he encounters a Reaver. He charges ('Nid loves close combat and had armed himself with a Honorifica Imperilas and a powerfist) and gets lucky killing the Reaver with his first two non-powerfist attacks (two sixes to hit and a five and six on the wound).

My own encounter doesn't go nearly as well, with me rapid firing a plasma gun into a Reaver hitting and wounding once and taking a wound due to the plasma overheating. I do manage to kill him in close combat taking another wound in the process (I also had an Imperials).

Others go through their turns, one guy armed with a flamer bites it and comes back as a Reaver, another armed with melta bomb goes down when his thrown bomb lands on himself (which as we all joked was one way of keeping yourself from coming back). We were starting to loosen up and have a good time.

The next turn 'Nid's dead Reaver gets back up and charges him. Once again, Reaver gets lucky two sixes to hit and two wounds (six and a four). Before the 'Nid player can pick his dice back up, Eldar, who's rolling for the Reaver grabs them and makes the invuln save. Making one with a six, and missing one with two. Eldar then rolls the six die again "just for fun". And again. And again. Six, six, and six.

Turns out 'Nid who's always had a reputation for being lucky when he needed it most, was using weighted dice. In the ensuing "discussion" he admitted it. About a third of his dice (those with a brown rather than black center pip on the five) were weighted for sixes. He also had some (with a dark red one pip) which were weighted for two.

He was able to get away with it for as long as he did because he was careful about it (normally he didn't use more than 1/4 to 1/5 mix and he'd change that up depending on how critical the situation was) and when rolling mass numbers of dice the feel would 'balance itself out' (meaning when he's throwing 15 dice, who's going to notice that three of them always come up six). You take that and the fact that even weighted dice (when thrown incorrectly) don't always come up with the weighted number, and you can see how he'd do it.

Sad thing is, we haven't played as a group since then.

Gaebriel
29-03-2006, 05:16
So why don't you insist he bring an army list? Even in a small army strictly conforming to WYSIWYG I don't see how he can have memorised his army list faultlessly. Refuse to play him unless he brings an army list that is available for inspection and that's the problem solved. Warn any new guys about him too.
Memorizing is not the problem, I'm not in possession of printer, but send my lists to our playing location via e-mail. They get rarely looked at, but the point is they are available to my opponents - it's a courtesy.

There are people who could write down their Codex (what a sad life me must have... :( )

Bilreia Mortil
29-03-2006, 10:27
I do not like to cheat. Whenever I notice I got rules wrong or made an error durring a battle, it really annoys me. I'll have a bad feeling about the battle, regardles of the outcome. Point is, however, I know some cheats I just can't go around. I cant help knowing them. For example, that my falcon is about 5" long, which will just be in range for firedragons to shoot at half range. Or remembering where deploymentzones used to be to guess distances. I just can't forget these things, but it makes me feel bad to use the knowledge.

I also like to look at distances before I measure. Not that I premeasure my shots. I turn around (away from the table) and roll out the tape-measurer for the distance I want to use, to get an impression of what the distance should be, and then put it away again. One of my friends thinks it's...well, not really the way it should be, so I don't do it when I'm playing against him. But is it really cheating?
thanks,

Mortil

Mato Noupa
29-03-2006, 14:01
Lets say it folks.

People that are in need to cheat are poor fellas. And they make the G A M E really annoying to everyone.

But most mistakes that happen in my surroundings are misunderstandings or bad understanding of the codex or rules. If you correct the people and talk about it you can solve it. Happens to me also once in a while that I forget about something but not on purpose!

What really got me crazy once was a guy that picked up the good dice with one 1 left, I told him: "hey, that one's a 1." And instead of just saying yes and removing it he said: "Oh, yeah. One can but try." :wtf: I almost hit him with my hardcover rulebook in the face right there. A cheater that admits doing so on purpose should be thrown from a chair into a box full of the old Goblin spearmen!

Good thread to vent ones feelings about cheaters.

Cheers and good night.

Mato Noupa

Ironhand
29-03-2006, 16:01
Perhaps I'm fortunate in that most of the folks I game with (even the younger ones age-wise) are mature individuals who play for fun. There are only one or two folks who cheat (mostly of the "no army list so you can't check my points" type), but they don't show up too often.

I think it is important to distinguish between an honest mistake from misunderstanding a rule, and deliberate cheating.

Red Eyes
29-03-2006, 17:36
Discriminatory? Yes. Slanderous? No. He said "heard" though the remark may be out of place it's not a flat out statement that calls all Italian gamers jerks.

I too have heard this about Allessio, so the comments are not entirely made up.

So? What's the point of it? I talked about discrimination, not about slanderousness...
Anyway saying:- I "heard" Grimtuff is a *** (anything offensive)!, is an offense and in my opinion it is even worse than saying it directly. In Italy we describe this way of telling things with the phrase (sorry for the poor translation): to throw the stone and hide the hand. And if the offense is discriminatory it is even worse than worst. And this goes against the rules of the forum.

If u red the Skaven codex and found that it is rubbish, it's your right to say it, you can even say Alessio is a cheater; thats your opinion and I don't care. But you cannot say that all the English are stupid because GW game developers aren't able to write clear rules in their rulebooks, and you cannot say that Italians are cheaters beacause Alessio is a cheater.

RE

Mad Doc Grotsnik
29-03-2006, 18:04
Except that those people I know who have played him (alright. I know 2 people) have both said Alessio is a Power Gaming swine, and a rules lawyer to boot!

Shockwave
29-03-2006, 18:13
and you cannot say that Italians are cheaters beacause Alessio is a cheater.

Nor did i say that.


I've also heard that the italian's are some of the worst to play against at GT's
Though to be fair i did forget to use the word "players". I also used the word heard because i've not been to a GT, yet. Though from what i have heard, i'm having second thoughts about going this year.

You should also note that i used the words some of. Which means...



Some of is used to talk about a part of something, or part of a group of people. or things As in NOT ALL.

But english isn't your first language, thus it's possible that you didn't get that part. Just like your Italian saying is new to me.

Grimtuff
29-03-2006, 18:38
Except that those people I know who have played him (alright. I know 2 people) have both said Alessio is a Power Gaming swine, and a rules lawyer to boot!


Yup, his favourite excuse seemed to always be "But in Italy we always do it this way..." which seems to also be a rather sweeping statement too, almost condemning his own countrymen there. Because obviously not everyone in Italy plays like Alessio, but the man himself just claimed they do :rolleyes:

Yes I have had a friend play him in a GT too.

squiggoth
29-03-2006, 18:44
A cheater that admits doing so on purpose should be thrown from a chair into a box full of the old Goblin spearmen!

To all the wannabe cheaters out there and reading this: take note of this man's advice!
I once made the mistake of putting my hand down on a gaming table without looking, and had 22 of my 4th edition Goblin spears dangling from my flesh.
Twenty-two ******** pointy plastic spears. And not one of them snapped. They just hung there and leeched me.

And I'm not even a cheater. :p

hardcastle
30-03-2006, 05:06
way back when, we had a guy who use to roll his dice in the 40k rule BOX, and always magically had 5's adn 6's and if we asked to see he would shake the box.

it was so funny

Mato Noupa
30-03-2006, 06:43
I think it is important to distinguish between an honest mistake from misunderstanding a rule, and deliberate cheating.

This gentlemen I think is the most important to remember.

Cheers and may your gaming experience be fun for everyone.

Mato Noupa

Thylacine
30-03-2006, 07:09
G'day folks.

I always watch my opponents hands and I have seen quite a few stunts pulled in the last five years. I know of one guy who thinks that 6" means closer to 7" and hates to be pulled up, he did a major dummy spit at a recent tournament when I set his commander back at its start position and measured its travel across the table, 14" of movement and charge!

Another guy I know likes to leave lots of dice on the table, he rolls some and picks up the others that are always sitting there with high numbers facing up, now when I play him I just pick up the dice for him and put them on his side of the table.

I have seen guys try to palm dice holding two between the thumb and middle finger. They pick up two dice and play with them letting you see that the 1 is facing out then they pick up some more dice and shake them around as if they are all freely moving in their hand. As they place the dice they do this in a sweeping movement with the two held dice going down on the one face and not moving so they have two sixes the rest of the dice the let roll.

A couple of weeks back I was preparing to go to a tournament, I packed the rulebook, codex, templates and was counting my dice when one felt rough to the touch. The six face had been drilled deeper, the one had also been drilled but not as deep, the dice had been sanded and four corners were sharper than the others and overall it was well off square. I think that the one was to be weighted and the six was drilled to reduce the weight on that side, the mix of sharp and round edges must be to make it roll and bring it to a halt. Anyone care to expand on that.

Lastly I know of one guy who argues, from the word go he is at you over one thing or another, he has freely told me that thats his style of play, he plays loose with the rules and is a pain as he thinks that he can interpret the rules as he sees them.

Thylacine:chrome:

Dyrnwyn
30-03-2006, 08:31
Ouch, StMachiavelli. I remember seeing that post a few months ago on LJ's AdeptusAstartes community. What a horrible way to end a scenario that sounds like a whole ton of fun.

Ironhand
30-03-2006, 11:35
. What a horrible way to end a scenario that sounds like a whole ton of fun.

That's what I really don't like about people who cheat or are "aggressive" with the rules. They're spoiling the fun for the rest of us.

Red Eyes
30-03-2006, 12:28
Nor did i say that.

You actually did. There is no difference between saying:- "Shockwave is a defamer." or saying "I "heard" Shockwave is a defamer." when you say it in a public board. It is insulting, and you are the one who did it, even if you say you just heard of it. If we where privately speaking together, it would have been different.


Though to be fair i did forget to use the word "players". I also used the word heard because i've not been to a GT, yet. Though from what i have heard, i'm having second thoughts about going this year.

that's your choice. feel free to listen to what people tell you and avoid to live real life in first person.


You should also note that i used the words some of. Which means...

As in NOT ALL.

But english isn't your first language, thus it's possible that you didn't get that part. Just like your Italian saying is new to me.

If english is your first language you should try to use it better: there is a big difference between:- "I've also heard that the italian's are some of the worst to play against at GT's." and:- "I've also heard that some of the italian's are the worst to play against at GT's.". please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

regards,

RE

Adept
30-03-2006, 12:52
You actually did. There is no difference between saying:- "Shockwave is a defamer." or saying "I "heard" Shockwave is a defamer." when you say it in a public board. It is insulting, and you are the one who did it, even if you say you just heard of it. If we where privately speaking together, it would have been different

Dry your eyes, princess. No one was making a scene until you get here.

Red Eyes
30-03-2006, 14:24
Dry your eyes, princess. No one was making a scene until you get here.

my eyes aren't red becouse I'm crying, madam, it's conjunctivitis.

RE

Grand Master Raziel
30-03-2006, 16:00
Y'know, I can understand being competitive, but I really don't see the point of cheating at this game. When I play, I want to test my skills against my opponent's skills. I like to win, but if I give up a close one, that's okay too. We learn more from our failures than from our successes. In other words, losing makes you better faster than winning. Cheating just keeps you stuck as a poor player.

I find the players who premeasure their arm or whatever to be just pathetic. I've found that, having played for as long as I have, I've gotten pretty good at estimating distances with my Mark I eyeball.

I've tried to cultivate and encourage good playing habits. For instance, when I roll To Hits/To Wounds, I pick up the misses, not the hits. That way, my opponent can see the hits, and also pick out any misses that I miss - it does happen occasionally. I also roll where my opponent can see, usually next to the unit I'm targeting, or at least in the middle of the table.

Another useful habit to get into is if you have to use the Scatter Die, roll it as close as possible to the thing that might scatter. Cuts down on arguments about in what direction the item should scatter. In general, I try to hold myself to the same standards that I'd like everybody else to play to.

As far as cheaters go, there's this one guy at the store I go to who's notorious there. My friends and I refer to him as Slappy (no particular reason, it's just derogatory). He's a shifty, trash-talking player who avoids playing against anyone who knows what they are doing. Instead, he picks up games with newbies and slaughters them. He makes a lot of "mistakes" that are always in his favor, such as claiming that Dark Reapers have a 3+ save, putting SoBs in a Chimera, or having an allied SoB Exorcist in a Daemonhunters army. Anyhow, that kind of thing did eventually bite him in the ass. I was nominated a referee at a mega-battle he was participating in, and a dispute came up between him and another player. It wasn't a rules dispute, it involved whether one of their units had done something or not. I made the decision in the other guy's favor, and when I griped about it, I told him flat out that I didn't trust him, and why.

As far as Allessio goes: I want the developers to be power gaming rules-lawyers. At least that kind of player can tell what's broken and what's not. I think that more problems in the rules arise from developers who get carried away with a concept and let it override balance.

Sir_Lunchalot
30-03-2006, 16:04
Guys, give it a rest. so maybe something somebody said could have been misinterpreted as being offensive. It has since been made clear that neither offending, or stating a sweeping generalization were his intent. Please, don't get the political correctness police out.

Please, let's get back to bashing cheaters, not fellow forum members. :chrome:

Socialist
01-04-2006, 23:16
A guy in my playing group once faced me with a chaos army, i lost horribly but i had played well and no one could explain why, then my friend challenged him the next day: he used the same amry plus his newly bought predator for the same points! WTF!

we instantly couagfht him and added up his amry to see, he had 3000+ in a 1000 point army. I felt stupid for not catching him before.


I'm sorry, but it's amusing that alot of people on here are complaining about the enemy having an extra 1-2 thousand points and were not able to tell. Thats alot of points going unnoticed.

Nathaniel
01-04-2006, 23:29
Well, Chaos grant powers and such that unless someone is familiar with, for example a Chaos Lords stats, they won't know that all those abilities it has don't come standard.

I've played games and not noticed 200-300 point differences, if you're not familiar with the opposing list, it can happen. Even more so if you, like myself assume everyone is honest enough when they play 40k that they stick to points.

Socialist
01-04-2006, 23:36
2-3 hundred yes, but 1-2 thousand?

Eulenspiegel
02-04-2006, 01:00
You only find out if a Chaos Chosen unit is 250 points or 1250 very late in the game. Same for a 100pts Lord opposed to an illegal 300 pts Lord ...
and then thereīs always beginners who donīt have any idea as to how much the enemy army costs in points.

landraider1
02-04-2006, 03:13
I think cheating has become rapant in 40k. Mainly because of prizes being put up at most Tournaments. When a big toy is on the line the game gets a bit fishy. Some people make mistakes as said above. Some do it on purpose. I think as long there is a prize on the line even the honost player has thoughts about stretching the rules. Although some people just need to win no matter what. That is sad. This is a hobby to be enjoyed. Notice I didn't say "game". Checkers is a game. This is a hobby. You do more than just move figures around. Otherwise, why do they sell paints brushes and whatnot. We might as well just play a collectable minis game and just worry about the game. But, no matter what there will always be the cheaters in the world. If you catch them, call them on it. If they whine about it, pack your stuff up and leave. I will walk out of a tournament if it is out of hand.

Hadhfang
02-04-2006, 11:53
one guy I knew measured for his movement then placed his models around 3 inches furter forward from where he measured!