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Memnos
10-02-2011, 17:43
So I have a question about magic items that affect Chaos models.

There's an Ogre magic item that causes anyone making a leadership test who is either Skaven or Chaos to suffer a -3 to Leadership tests. It specifically says 'Chaos'.

There's nothing in the FAQ about this, so if a new person comes in with Beastmen and says the following, how do you show Beastmen count as a Chaos army? Do they even count as Chaos in the new edition?

"Wait... So that affects all Chaos armies? There are Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos... I see the name 'Chaos' in there. I don't see 'Beastmen of Chaos.' The word 'Chaos' isn't anywhere in their title like the two armies you're speaking of."

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-02-2011, 17:53
If a person took the stance that Beastmen weren't Chaos with me, I'd probably finish up that game and not play them again. Background and gameplay should complement each other, the rules (for me) do not exist in a vacuum.

CaliforniaGamer
10-02-2011, 17:54
Beastmen were actually kicked out of Chaos due to their unpowered nature of their newest army book.

TheBearProphet
10-02-2011, 18:00
I would try and point out that they have Chaos Spawn and Chaos Warhounds in their army. That -might- work, but it kinda sounds like this person is a bit of a dick regarding exact wording of rules, rather than the general intent.

Haravikk
10-02-2011, 18:13
It's a perfect example of a deliciously vague rule. Strictly speaking Beastmen are creatures of Chaos now, rather than specifically aligned with Chaos, i.e - they were created by the corrupting nature of Chaos.
Since Skaven are specifically mentioned, and they are believed to essentially be created by Chaos to some degree, then I'd expect that Beastmen are intended to be included for the same reason.

The end result is that this item, and anything similar (if there is any) are excellent examples of badly written rules, seeing as how it's only really backed up by back-story or book titles. The reference to Skaven at least is nice and specific.

T10
10-02-2011, 18:18
If a person took the stance that Beastmen weren't Chaos with me, I'd probably finish up that game and not play them again. Background and gameplay should complement each other, the rules (for me) do not exist in a vacuum.

Yeah, problem solved. :rolleyes:

You can argue that the Chaos armies are the armies listed on the back of the Ogre book as "... of Chaos". Beasts of Chaos has has evolved (mutated?) into Beastmen. It is not too far fetched to claim that since the item refers to an old book its legacy should carry over to the new book.

-T10

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-02-2011, 18:35
Yeah, problem solved. :rolleyes:

You can argue that the Chaos armies are the armies listed on the back of the Ogre book as "... of Chaos". Beasts of Chaos has has evolved (mutated?) into Beastmen. It is not too far fetched to claim that since the item refers to an old book its legacy should carry over to the new book.

-T10

A person with that mentality and I would inevitably have many, many other rules disagreements. It is a fundamental difference, and I wouldn't want to put either of us through continued trouble.

So take your condescending eyeroll somewhere else buddy, because you're the only one being childish here.

Lex
10-02-2011, 18:48
If I remember correctly, aren't all armies listed in the BRB now as aligned to either Order, Chaos or Neutral? And I think only TK and Lizards are neutral. I believe its in the allies section.

Haravikk
10-02-2011, 18:51
If I remember correctly, aren't all armies listed in the BRB now as aligned to either Order, Chaos or Neutral? And I think only TK and Lizards are neutral. I believe its in the allies section.
It's Forces of Destruction, not Chaos, unfortunately. It includes armies like Dark Elves and Vampire Counts who aren't Chaos armies.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-02-2011, 18:54
It's Forces of Destruction, not Chaos, unfortunately. It includes armies like Dark Elves and Vampire Counts who aren't Chaos armies.

Yeah, I believe it has something to do with the Warhammer Online Game, where that's how the armies are grouped.

TheBearProphet
10-02-2011, 18:56
Unfortunately, they are listed as "forces of destruction" rather than forces of chaos. Which is sad, because the whole paragraph describing it doesn't even use the word chaos.

I think that any reasonable player who knew about the previous incarnations of the beastmen would give it to you. I would also probably think twice before playing with this person again.

Ultimate Life Form
10-02-2011, 19:04
It is not too far fetched to claim that since the item refers to an old book its legacy should carry over to the new book.


U-huh. So in order to be able to play the game, I'm required to take an evening school course to learn the entire 25 years history of all 16 armies. Totally justified.

Didn't you all know, by the way, that Ogres are a Chaos army too, for Chaos Ogres have existed far longer so it is not farfetched to claim that this has somehow carried over to the army.

Did you know that Morathi has a soft spot for Slaanesh and has been known to lead the Cult of Pleasures? Well, obviously Dark Elves are a Chaos army.

Did you know that Vampire Counts use Warpstone in their Magic that raises their troops, the solidified very essence of Chaos itself? I guess that makes them a Chaos army.

Did you know there are Chaos cults in the Empire? Well obviously Empire is a Chaos army then.

Oh no, there's Chaos everywhere!!! Guess what? They're all Chaos armies!

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-02-2011, 19:19
Whilst I appreciate your over-the-top humor and understand your point, ULF, the point is that the rulebook is often going to require rational human beings to make informed decisions where they do not cover every possibility. Assuming Beastmen are a Chaos army does not equate to assuming everyone is a Chaos army.

On the other hand, as has been argued many, many times on this forum, every deity is a Chaos diety, so... ULF's over-the-top exaggeration is spot-on!

Ultimate Life Form
10-02-2011, 19:27
Whilst I appreciate your over-the-top humor

What do you mean, 'over the top'?!? :confused::angel:

The problem is, when we start arguing background it's a double-edged sword. For every Chaos unit in the Beastmen army there's a Karl Franz or Louen Leoncouer riding a mount that is explicitly classified as Chaos-born in the background, and for every 'some Beastmen worship...' textbox in the Beastmen book there's a 'hidden chaos cult' reference in the Empire book. This is leading nowhere, especially considering GW's inability to manage their own background and shape into a coherent story.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-02-2011, 19:47
I agree that GW is sloppy, but we play in their world and we're the ones who have to make sense. We can sit back and simply throw up our hands at their inconsistency and laziness, but at the end of the day we still have to figure out how we're going to play it. Rules-based folks would probably go with the interpretation that because Beastmen don't have some sort of "Chaos" special rule that they are not affected. Background-based folks would argue that Beastmen are made from Chaos, worship Chaos, and have been associated with Chaos since their inception, so they would be affected.

I guess, OP, the important thing would be to ask your opponent before you start the game.

decker_cky
10-02-2011, 20:04
Personally....I put as much blame on the person using the Brahmir statue as I do on the Beastmen player claiming he's not chaos. Brahmir statue one of those dumb items balanced only by random opponents.

Harwammer
10-02-2011, 20:10
While Beastmen have received gifts from Chaos the feeling is no longer reciprocated... Beastmen and Chaos have split up... Indeed the beasts have filed a restraining order to avoid attracting the undesired attention of the eye of the gods.

Any statements linking beastmen with either skaven or chaos will be treated as deformation...

Lex
10-02-2011, 21:28
It's Forces of Destruction, not Chaos, unfortunately. It includes armies like Dark Elves and Vampire Counts who aren't Chaos armies.

Bummer, couldn't remember.

Tregar
10-02-2011, 21:28
I would personally find it hilarious to see someone tailor their army list against Beastmen and use this item in the first place.

No sane player would use it at a tournament, so for friendly games, come to a friendly agreement (Such as "Don't tailor your magic items against me, and I won't act like a douche in return" ;) ).

T10
11-02-2011, 10:26
U-huh. So in order to be able to play the game, I'm required to take an evening school course to learn the entire 25 years history of all 16 armies. Totally justified.


Interesting tangent, but my point was that if you want to use the "vs. Chaos" item from the Ogre Kindoms book, then you will likely have that book on hand. On the back of that book is listed other armies in the Warhammer game, including Beasts of Chaos.

The OP made the point that the Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos armies can successfully be argued to be Chaos models, but this will in practice leave the Beastmen out of it.

My suggestion is that since we are dealing with an old book that references another old book, that reference can be passed on to the natural successor to the Beasts of Chaos army: the Beastmen army.

-T10

T10
11-02-2011, 10:48
A person with that mentality and I would inevitably have many, many other rules disagreements. It is a fundamental difference, and I wouldn't want to put either of us through continued trouble.

So take your condescending eyeroll somewhere else buddy, because you're the only one being childish here.

I assume that you've been playing at least a few games of Warhammer in spite of your apparent tendency to abandon games where your opinion fail to serve as a valid point in a rules dispute. As a veteran player you "know" that Beastmen are Chaos models because, hey, that's what they've always been, right?

But take a moment to think about it. A new player can't really be expected to be in possession of anything other than his army book and the rule book. And neither of those define Chaos as a specific type of model. If a new Beastman player and a new Ogre Kingdoms player were to meet, how should they be expected to know?

-T10

Tregar
11-02-2011, 11:38
I guess it depends on whether you should expect the Beastman player to have read the background in his army book. While they don't have "of Chaos" in their title any more, the book does clearly label them as Chaotic.

RMacDeezy
12-02-2011, 12:52
While Beastmen have received gifts from Chaos the feeling is no longer reciprocated... Beastmen and Chaos have split up... Indeed the beasts have filed a restraining order to avoid attracting the undesired attention of the eye of the gods.

Any statements linking beastmen with either skaven or chaos will be treated as deformation...

QFPG- quoted for pure gold :D. i think without some rock solid ruling that beastmen are 'chaos' the whole issue will have to come down to agreement before a game. unfortunately, fluff are not rules and there is no rule per se that beastmen would be included in the armies affected by this particular item. either that, or hope the situation comes up in a context where someone is authorized to make a definitive ruling (tourney). i for one, love fluffy, army-specific items (cloak of beards for example) and wouldn't mind seeing one once in a while.

mrtn
12-02-2011, 14:46
If it couldn't be settled with just pointing to the general background I'd think the Gifts of Chaos heading on page 91 should be enough.

Kevlar
12-02-2011, 17:24
Didn't you all know, by the way, that Ogres are a Chaos army too, for Chaos Ogres have existed far longer so it is not farfetched to claim that this has somehow carried over to the army.


Actually chaos ogres are fairly new. The original ogres fought for the empire!