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stonetroll
11-02-2011, 10:58
So, as we are supposed to get the Choppa rule on all our weapons now, what do you guys think will be the optimal loadout for our bog standard orc boy?

Personally I think the HW/Shield combo will still be pretty dominant as it enhances what the standard boyz are all about: lots of bodies that don’t give a way a lot of CR (well…. not THAT much anyway). AHW is the same as it was before (and it wasn’t taken before, so why should we now?). Spear/Shield is, in my opinion, just not worth the extra combat res you will give away, let alone the amount of points it will cost you for a big unit.

Comments?

decker_cky
11-02-2011, 18:13
HW&S or AHW. Spears are still not as good as AHW. At the same price, spear + shield and AHW would be pretty balanced, but AHW working on charges and on the flanks makes it just a better choice at this point.

HW&S is still solid, but for the points, it's a toss up between the armour and parry and the extra attacks.

CaliforniaGamer
11-02-2011, 18:17
Where is the Savage Orc AHW option? that is by far the best.

stonetroll
11-02-2011, 18:22
Where is the Savage Orc AHW option? that is by far the best.

Does that mean you think we won't be fielding no regular Orc boyz no more?

To be honest, I thought of that as well, considering switching to just arrer boyz and additional choppa savage Orcs, but wasn't sure.

CaliforniaGamer
11-02-2011, 18:27
Does that mean you think we won't be fielding no regular Orc boyz no more?

To be honest, I thought of that as well, considering switching to just arrer boyz and additional choppa savage Orcs, but wasn't sure.

Savage Orc AHW Core for an Orc based army is the max(imized) choice.

~Additional attack, frenzy being mitigated by nearbly BSB allowing rerolls+gen LD.
~ITP to prevent unit running off the board when hit by Hellcannon (+ Pandemonium or DandDarkness)
~6+ ward built in that can be upgraded to 5+ ward with 50pt magic item
~Dual choppa and big un upgrade the same cost as regular orc boyz
~Optional monster slaying impact hit upgrade.

The only downside is the Savage Orc Big Unz cant take magical banners, but Big Un Orc boyz can, which is been heavily mitigated now by the fact there are really are no good banners to choose from (put flaming on the Black Orcs and that should be sufficient).

SOs all the way in this version of the AB (which probably wont be updated for another 4-5 years...). Any price increase on the regular Orc Boyz by GW will only reinforce the fact the SOs are better, financially equivalent in cost, but better model quality wise and gamewise. 360 degree win for SOs.

Matt.Wood88
11-02-2011, 18:29
Personally I will be doing an all savage Orc/forest goblin tribe so for me I will probably use AHW solely :)
Well, that depends on two things:
1: if they can take HW&S... And...
2: if they do, do they get a 5+ parry because of their warpaint?
Or am I just wishing here?
Cheers
Matt

CaliforniaGamer
11-02-2011, 18:31
Personally I will be doing an all savage Orc/forest goblin tribe so for me I will probably use AHW solely :)
Well, that depends on two things:
1: if they can take HW&S... And...
2: if they do, do they get a 5+ parry because of their warpaint?
Or am I just wishing here?
Cheers
Matt

youre wishing frenzy troops specifically can never parry.

there is no reason whatsoever to go HWS SOs (being armor save 6+ is nigh pointless).

Matt.Wood88
11-02-2011, 18:36
Oh yeah... I forgot about that... And even after I explained in great depth and even showed an opponent in the BRB that his khorne warriors couldn't get parry...
*whistles innocently*...
So, I will be going with AHW for sure :D
cheers
Matt

stonetroll
11-02-2011, 19:00
SOs all the way in this version of the AB (which probably wont be updated for another 4-5 years...).

I'm afraid im going to have to agree with you... down the drain with those 125 regular boyz :(

decker_cky
11-02-2011, 19:58
Savage Orc AHW Core for an Orc based army is the max(imized) choice.

~Additional attack, frenzy being mitigated by nearbly BSB allowing rerolls+gen LD.
~ITP to prevent unit running off the board when hit by Hellcannon (+ Pandemonium or DandDarkness)
~6+ ward built in that can be upgraded to 5+ ward with 50pt magic item
~Dual choppa and big un upgrade the same cost as regular orc boyz
~Optional monster slaying impact hit upgrade.

The only downside is the Savage Orc Big Unz cant take magical banners, but Big Un Orc boyz can, which is been heavily mitigated now by the fact there are really are no good banners to choose from (put flaming on the Black Orcs and that should be sufficient).

SOs all the way in this version of the AB (which probably wont be updated for another 4-5 years...). Any price increase on the regular Orc Boyz by GW will only reinforce the fact the SOs are better, financially equivalent in cost, but better model quality wise and gamewise. 360 degree win for SOs.

Not quite. You left out the major downside of having a forced pursuit rather than either a reform or optional pursuit. But by all means - the people say frenzy is all win, the easier it is to take a 300 pt block out of the game for 2 turns, or to open up an easy flank charge. Not to mention normal boyz being 2 pts cheaper.

Haravikk
11-02-2011, 20:36
I think that hand weapon and shields are a good option for boyz as a tar-pit unit, Savage Orcs seem to have a ton of damage potential now, but damage isn't everything as a big, tough to kill unit with a lot of ranks is still important to any combat-oriented army. It's just that if you have a lot of boyz, then you may want to complement them with quite a lot of savage orcs as well.

CaliforniaGamer
11-02-2011, 20:47
Not quite. You left out the major downside of having a forced pursuit rather than either a reform or optional pursuit. But by all means - the people say frenzy is all win, the easier it is to take a 300 pt block out of the game for 2 turns, or to open up an easy flank charge. Not to mention normal boyz being 2 pts cheaper.

A forced pursuit meant you threw a unit of sufficient wound count to survive a round of CC vs. the SOs. That means something other than 6-10 man fast cav. that will just be blown up rather than break from combat when they hit the green meatgrinder of SO big uns.

In addition, 8th ed has created a HUGE incentive to pursue and destroy completely a unit. You get no points, nada...for units unless they are totally wiped out meaning the number of situations where you might want to restrain is very very limited. Im talking very limited. Not the way it used to be for sure.

Definitely having the pursue is extremely minor annoyance in 8th ed. Point for point (which is the only thing that matters right?) SO vastly outperform comparable Boyz. Clearly, in my mind they underpriced Savages perhaps by 1-2 points. Max'ing an army's potential begins with finding the underpriced stuff and using it in combinations.

When you think about what a Savage is in games terms..they are Orc Boyz with BOTH a Mark of Khorne and a Mark of Tzeentch. What would that be worth? Heck alot more than 2pts per model!! SOs>>>>>Boyz.

Morkash
11-02-2011, 22:49
The problem really is, you basically have a Orc Boy with Hand Weapon/Shield on the one hand, and a Savage Orc with two Hand Weapons on the other hand.
Against S1-3 the common Orc is more resilient, as he gets a 5+ Armour save. But as soon as he is hit by a S4 attack, both Orcs are equal in defensive terms: T4 and a 6+ save.
The problem is: The Orc Boy has 1 S3/4 attack, while the Savage Orc has 3 S3/4 attacks and is ItP. Even if the Savage lose his frenzy he still has a attack more...

But time will tell what we will use, I have quite a few Orc boyz and won't stop to use 'em. :) (just painting another mob...)

bluemage
11-02-2011, 23:04
Haven't done any play testing, but so far I prefer savage orcs with two choppas.

decker_cky
11-02-2011, 23:32
A forced pursuit meant you threw a unit of sufficient wound count to survive a round of CC vs. the SOs. That means something other than 6-10 man fast cav. that will just be blown up rather than break from combat when they hit the green meatgrinder of SO big uns.

In addition, 8th ed has created a HUGE incentive to pursue and destroy completely a unit. You get no points, nada...for units unless they are totally wiped out meaning the number of situations where you might want to restrain is very very limited. Im talking very limited. Not the way it used to be for sure.

Definitely having the pursue is extremely minor annoyance in 8th ed. Point for point (which is the only thing that matters right?) SO vastly outperform comparable Boyz. Clearly, in my mind they underpriced Savages perhaps by 1-2 points. Max'ing an army's potential begins with finding the underpriced stuff and using it in combinations.

When you think about what a Savage is in games terms..they are Orc Boyz with BOTH a Mark of Khorne and a Mark of Tzeentch. What would that be worth? Heck alot more than 2pts per model!! SOs>>>>>Boyz.

There's a forced overrun too on the turn you charge, so little 5 man ungor raider units are enough to force your savage orcs to open the flanks for a counter charge.

Algovil
11-02-2011, 23:37
As long as there are ranks, you are attacked in front, and you do not charge, spears are better then ahw, +1 extra in armour save, same number of attacks. That are quite some downsides though. But all options have pros and cons, I would use hw&s for deep units and ahw for wide units. Maybe spears and shield instead of hw&s for deep units with many ranks.

CaliforniaGamer
11-02-2011, 23:48
There's a forced overrun too on the turn you charge, so little 5 man ungor raider units are enough to force your savage orcs to open the flanks for a counter charge.

Youre a smart player. Obviously. Youre not a "shove it forward and scrap" WFB general.

A good Savage general though will not be so foolish. He will not be charging 5 ungor raider teams. He will blowing those up with magic or his own fast cav (spiders, wolf riders or boars even), maybe a chariot.

What a smart general will do is sink his teeth into your beloved Bestigors, Str5 51 horde attacks on the charge. He will have a shaman with the Shrunken Head giving them 5+ ward.

He will bait with character sniping spells to draw your dispel dice and then get through the reroll to hit spell on the SO.

CC starts and you will take 51x.75=38 hits and 25 wounds no armor save (well -2...none for Bestigors) before you strike. You get your Primal Fury and your 15 remaining Bestigors hit 11 times doing 9 wounds. Of those 9 wounds, the Savages save 3....you lose combat by 17CR. Break and run time.

Now the trusty Black Orcs havent seen combat, they are chomping at the bit for your Minotaurs.

Your Minotaurs see the Bestigors dead and dying and freak....

Now why would you even remotely want poor Orc Boyz in there? 31 measely Str5 attacks with HWS. Only a 6+ parry.....why?

Craze_b0i
12-02-2011, 00:20
re: regular orcs. HW&S for big anvil units. Why? Because regular orcs are only WS3 S3.5, you can increase their attacks but they won't do a huge amount of damage. On the other hand a parry save is always quite useful.

But if I were to field small flanking units then x2hw.

I agree with the comments that SO are now better value, but only slightly... A vanilla orc is now 6pts and a vanilla savage is 8pts. +2 pts for frenzy is probably about right (remember its only the front rank). However the built-in ward (warpaint) stacks nicely with dual hw whereas LA worn by itself is poor protection. So in that regard the SO has an edge.

decker_cky
12-02-2011, 00:34
Not gonna bother with your unit by unit comparison. The drawbacks of frenzy are vastly underrated on forums. A single unit is easily managed. I'll probably run a big (30ish) 5+ ward savage big uns unit with additional choppas, but that doesn't make savage orcs a great mainline unit. Savage big uns are probably the all star unit of the entire book. But once you have 2-3 frenzied units, the frenzy drawback increases considerably.

Orcs are a mainline unit. When thinking of a few blocks to just sit and do their job without needing dedicated support, they fit that bill. Keep them in the general's bubble and they'll outfight cheap stuff and be steadfast against elite stuff.

The frenzy is always better sits with the bigger is always better thought in warhammer. Nice in theory, but runs into problems in practice.

Gork or Possibly Mork
12-02-2011, 03:01
AHW in hordes and HW&S for steadbus seems like the most bang for your buck on regular orcs. On savages I'd opt for AHW always.

All are worthy i guess depending on situation though.

Spears aren't really worth it without the shield and with the shield costing you and spears being a bit situational that loadout is a little meh compared to the others.

theorox
12-02-2011, 09:12
I like the compromise that spears+Shields give, and i'm building a unit of 40 probably. :D 8p might be a bit steep, but i think it's cool. The unit looks great too, and they will not rarely be Big'Uns.

Theo

Lorex
12-02-2011, 11:48
I will get one unit of 20 Savage for flank protection.
( I will use the bow hands and get my bow orcs, Two flies in one hit )

Little Joe
12-02-2011, 11:57
If I were to take orcs then AHW. Because any kind of orc should want to bash and not cower in the cover of a shield. T4 is there for protection combined with many bodies.

Gamewise HWS regular orcs, because you can fullfill the role of core basher unit better with SO, so give them an other role. And yes it has frenzy but it is still only one of many many units within an army of many.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-02-2011, 12:14
Why not one of each loadout? That gives you choices, adds variety and means that you add a bit more skill and tactics to the deployment phase.

Little Joe
12-02-2011, 14:34
Ehm...money?:shifty:

They will cost 2,25€ (1,8 UK pounds) a piece. And Ebay will follow so you need to be fast to get them at old prices.

That is way too much for large units such as orcs.

Actually magnetizing is an option now at these prices come to think about it.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-02-2011, 14:48
Some of us already have plenty of boyz, so the new price is less of an issue- and isn't really part of the tactics of using the army anyway.

Morkash
12-02-2011, 14:49
There are always the old 6th ed AHW orcs. They are not made of awesomeness, but they are quite cheap and you can often pick up a bucket load. Maybe not in ebay (the times of "OMG, I got a well painted Whirlwind for 2,5 Mark (~1,3€)" are over, but in many forums (is there a English plural?) you can still make a good deal.

Matt.Wood88
12-02-2011, 15:56
... but in many forums (is there a English plural?) ...

You've got the English plural right there mate :)
Singular: Forum
Plural: Forums

Cheers
Matt

P.S. On topic, if I were to take 'normal' boys I would have them with HW&S personally, as has been said it is a great load out and you still get plenty of attacks!

Malorian
12-02-2011, 16:03
Point cost is what drives this, and although it's easy to say SOs with EHW are the best thing, when you go to a horde you are paying a LOT of points to get extra attacks on models that only get 1 anyway.

I'm thinking that for orcs I would normally go with shields and then one unit of savages if this 5+ ward item thing is true.

sssk
12-02-2011, 16:08
I think what we'll end up seeing is a nice mix of savage and not savage armies.

There'll be those who had the models before this release, and therefore will use normal boyz, just because they have them. There'll be people who had the models, but also got some of the new savages to up their hitting power a bit, so will have mixed armies. Then there'll be the new O&G players who will generally shun normal boyz in favour of savages.

Personally, I think savages with extra hand weapons will be a common sight, and normal orcs with shield and hand weapon will also be common. Normal orcs with extra hand weapons are only likely to occur when people already have the models, because let's face it, if you want lots of attacks, you take savages.

It seems to me that spears of all forms (except normal boar boys) are going to die out, which is kind of a shame, but at the same time, an orc isn't really going to want to prod the enemy from a distance, so on balance, it's probably not a bad thing.

As for boar boys, I think we'll see them with as much armour as they can take and spears, and savage boar boys will be wielding 2 hand weapons as a savage should.

Captainbastard
12-02-2011, 23:27
A forced pursuit meant you threw a unit of sufficient wound count to survive a round of CC vs. the SOs. That means something other than 6-10 man fast cav. that will just be blown up rather than break from combat when they hit the green meatgrinder of SO big uns.

In addition, 8th ed has created a HUGE incentive to pursue and destroy completely a unit. You get no points, nada...for units unless they are totally wiped out meaning the number of situations where you might want to restrain is very very limited. Im talking very limited. Not the way it used to be for sure.

Definitely having the pursue is extremely minor annoyance in 8th ed. Point for point (which is the only thing that matters right?) SO vastly outperform comparable Boyz. Clearly, in my mind they underpriced Savages perhaps by 1-2 points. Max'ing an army's potential begins with finding the underpriced stuff and using it in combinations.

When you think about what a Savage is in games terms..they are Orc Boyz with BOTH a Mark of Khorne and a Mark of Tzeentch. What would that be worth? Heck alot more than 2pts per model!! SOs>>>>>Boyz.

Erm I hate to tell you this but the mark of Tzeetntch is only 10 points or something like that for a whole unit. No matter how big the unit is. The mark of khorne is a bit more but still completely broken for huge units. Marauders are a bit too good in the new edition particularly.

But anyway... I really think new players will just never want to buy the old orc models because I mean look at the cost and the models. They are stinking old models at the stinking new price reigime. I never liked the old Boyz models.

Savage orcs really whoop a lot of other frenzied units such as plague monks now. But will they really be worth the points to base a whole army around. Without the magic banner their ward save is poor and in the second round of combat they would only have st3.

I think point for point orcs with hand weapon and shield are still a good unit. Most units at that cost would never get the added toughness. But for real bite a massive point sink unit of savage orc big uns with the banner and two hand weapons is better.

TMATK
12-02-2011, 23:31
... But for real bite a massive point sink unit of savage orc big uns with the banner and two hand weapons is better.

I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that savage bigun boyz still won't be taking magical banners.

Captainbastard
13-02-2011, 00:30
Yeah so you would have to have BSB and it would be even more of a points sink. Of course with the new rules it really is worth having a BSB somewhere in the army, particularly for low LD armies.

Djekar
13-02-2011, 09:11
The bigger problem with that is that if you give your BSB a magical banner then you aren't giving him magical protection - a scary prospect with the importance of a BSB to the Greenskins.

orkmiester
14-02-2011, 12:28
talking about spears i have one unit- the first O&G unit i built, its only a 20 man unit but i think it would help guard a foot slogging shamman. Other than that its the choppa and shield combo for me a little extra protection, for savages defo extra choppas learning from my woc and khorne warriors, but i personally think you have to protect them because anyone worth their salt is going to hit them first, for some reason a unit with frenzy is suddenly more scary than a black orc unit- which can of course chose to use great weapons, 2 choppas or a choppa and shield if your that way inclined...