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gamerguy1470
13-02-2011, 03:13
if two models have ASF and one model has a higher int., do the models strike in int. order or would they go at the same time?

Lord Inquisitor
13-02-2011, 03:16
The rule is clear, although a lot of people do play it wrong. "If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously".

gamerguy1470
13-02-2011, 03:40
thats what i thought just confirming thanks

Archangelion
13-02-2011, 04:12
If I remember correctly... the model with the higher initiative will also get to re-roll failed rolls to hit.

Chris_
13-02-2011, 04:19
If I remember correctly... the model with the higher initiative will also get to re-roll failed rolls to hit.No, you remember wrong:


If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule.

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-02-2011, 05:13
ASF agasint ASF = Strike Simo.

There is no comparing I vaules etc. . .

I always think of it as two samurai's drawing swords. One may have their sword out (higher I) first, but the difference is so minute, that it dosen't justify enough for that higher I samurai to to get the edge and turn a blow on his opponet.

Now if the O.P were to talk about ASL. . . than thats another story.

Lord Inquisitor
13-02-2011, 05:50
It would make a lot more sense if in the case of ASF vs ASF or ASL vs ASL the rules just cancel out and you go back to regular initiative order.

T10
13-02-2011, 09:28
Magenta

It wouldn't really help since initiative order isn't a one-on-one thing, like comparing Weapon Skill for making a To Hit roll. You still need to factor in other models with regular initiative:


Imagine an Orc (I 2) with the Always Strike First special rule fighting a Man (I 3): The Orc gets to strike first. Throw in an Elf (I 5) with the Always Strike First special rule. If the rules cancel each other out then the Orc suddenly strikes last, even after the Man.


-T10

Haravikk
13-02-2011, 11:57
It might be easier to think of Always Strikes First as upgrading a model's Initiative to infinite when striking in close combat, so when two Always Strikes First models get into a fight and the rule cancels out, they still have the same effective Initiative.

I do agree that it doesn't really make sense that an especially speedy elf should be the same speed as an especially speedy orc, but that's just the way it is.

sorberec
13-02-2011, 14:58
It wouldn't really help since initiative order isn't a one-on-one thing, like comparing Weapon Skill for making a To Hit roll. You still need to factor in other models with regular initiative:


Imagine an Orc (I 2) with the Always Strike First special rule fighting a Man (I 3): The Orc gets to strike first. Throw in an Elf (I 5) with the Always Strike First special rule. If the rules cancel each other out then the Orc suddenly strikes last, even after the Man.


-T10

Using Lord Inquisitor's scheme, determine which models have ASF. These then fight in their initiative order, which makes Assassins more scary again for High Elves. (Although the rule "cancels out" it only cancels out against other models with the same rule, so assuming the Orc is still alive after the elf with ASF has struck, he would still strike before the Man)

Then take the remaining models that don't have ASF. These then fight in initiative order.

Pretty simple

Haravikk
13-02-2011, 21:20
so assuming the Orc is still alive after the elf with ASF has struck
Wouldn't they still count as striking simultaneously? It doesn't matter against whom; at the same time the High Elf is slicing the Orc to pieces, the Orc may be chewing on the human's face, so if the Elf player rolls attacks first then the Orc still gets to go even if he's going to be dead. The rules don't cancel out in the sense of leaving the models without the rule, a model with Always Strikes First simply doesn't get any benefits against another model with Always Strikes First.

Mr_Rose
13-02-2011, 21:36
ASF should just add 10 to your I and give re-rolls if you're now 2 or more times the enemy's I.

Except for the precious "stats can't go above 10" rule it would work well.

Lord Inquisitor
13-02-2011, 23:12
Or now that chargers no longer strike first, just make any unit that is super fast have I10?

Really, ASF and ASL are relics of bygone editions. 40k switched to ASF=I10 and ASL=I1 a while ago and I think it was good for the game.

Chris_
13-02-2011, 23:41
:D High Elves would then all get I10... And re-rolls almost all the time to boot?

Edit: Well actually they get re-rolls almost all the time now as well...

Mr_Rose
13-02-2011, 23:43
Because removing ASF would mean making the decision now and having an overlap period while there are army books with ASF and army books with I10 models and so on, probably. plus there's the models that don't have ASF but can get it and...

It could be done, and maybe the decision is already made and that's the current plan, but it would take a while to implement fully.

And I still think Lances should grant ASF (or I10, whatever) on the charge. In fact there are a bunch of changes I'd make to the standard weapon rules, but this is not the place.

theunwantedbeing
13-02-2011, 23:49
:D High Elves would then all get I10... And re-rolls almost all the time to boot?

Or we could just dock ASF from them, it's not as if they need it.
Sure, it'll weaken them (as would removing any armywide rule for any list)but it'll sort ASF out as a rule for everyone seeing as no single army would have it entirely.

It can then stay as it is really, although letting ASF vs ASF troops revert to initituive makes more sense. If your in10 and fighting somebody in1 and you both have ASF/ASL weapons that natural innate speed is going to make the in10 guy fight first.

Things like the Keeper of Secrets and DE assasin do get very scary when not heavily outnumbered of course, but then....they should be really.

sorberec
14-02-2011, 09:38
Wouldn't they still count as striking simultaneously? It doesn't matter against whom; at the same time the High Elf is slicing the Orc to pieces, the Orc may be chewing on the human's face, so if the Elf player rolls attacks first then the Orc still gets to go even if he's going to be dead. The rules don't cancel out in the sense of leaving the models without the rule, a model with Always Strikes First simply doesn't get any benefits against another model with Always Strikes First.


Not in Lord Inquisitor's example of how ASF should be changed to work, which is what I was referring to. You're talking about how it actually works in game now.

T10
14-02-2011, 10:22
Using Lord Inquisitor's scheme, determine which models have ASF. These then fight in their initiative order, which makes Assassins more scary again for High Elves. (Although the rule "cancels out" it only cancels out against other models with the same rule, so assuming the Orc is still alive after the elf with ASF has struck, he would still strike before the Man)

Then take the remaining models that don't have ASF. These then fight in initiative order.

Pretty simple

Except he suggests something rather different (or perhaps incomplete):


It would make a lot more sense if in the case of ASF vs ASF or ASL vs ASL the rules just cancel out and you go back to regular initiative order.

No mention of moving ASF to a separate section that is also resolved in initiative order. I'm afraid you'll have to take credit for that, sorberec.

-T10

sorberec
14-02-2011, 10:55
It would make a lot more sense if in the case of ASF vs ASF or ASL vs ASL the rules just cancel out and you go back to regular initiative order.

No mention of moving ASF to a separate section that is also resolved in initiative order. I'm afraid you'll have to take credit for that, sorberec.

-T10

Er, that seems to be exactly what he's doing - ASF vs ASF goes back to initiative order but if there's a model without ASF in the mix as well it would still strike after the those with ASF.

T10
14-02-2011, 12:21
I'm letting this one go. It is clear that I have no career prospects in education.

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
14-02-2011, 14:55
No, you're good T10. I did say what you said I said but I meant what thay said I meant to say. :)

Archangelion
15-02-2011, 01:41
Your sentance above was confusing. What might have made it less so would have been a comma between said and but. Oh well. I got it anyways.

Chris_
15-02-2011, 01:56
My head hurts...

T10
15-02-2011, 09:09
You may excuse yourself for the day, but I'll need a note from your parent/legal guardian.

-T10

FestHest
15-02-2011, 09:14
You may excuse yourself for the day, but I'll need a note from your parent/legal guardian.

-T10

:D
I sometimes wonder if you have been drinking when writing replies...

tarrasque
15-02-2011, 10:53
no, it is his black humor everybody loves unless it is pointed at them XD