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PBGhost
30-05-2005, 11:23
I have no doubt this list would function well on the tabletop, but is it too cheesy? Basically I wanted to have an Eshin list that was fun, so opted to have ranked units and lose "Cover of Night." Set up is Clanrats behind slaves, rat swarms on one flank, Night Runners on the other. Eshin Sorceror in the middle as general. Assassin skittering about killing Characters

Assassin
Smoke Bombs, Weeping Blade
-170

Eshin Sorceror
Bare. General
-75

2x20 Clanrat Slaves
-2x40

3x 20 Clanrats
Full Command, Spears
-3x145

6 Nightrunners
2 Hand Weapons
-42

7 Nightrunners
2 Hand Weapons
-49

7 Nightrunners
Night Leader. 2 Hand Weapons
-59

2 Rat Swarms
-90

Exactly 1000 points. 124 Models, 3 Power/Dispel Dice, 0 Dispell Scrolls.

wibble
30-05-2005, 11:39
I personally would take out the clanrats and add lots of units of 5 nightrunners (no upgrades, so a measly 25pt. unit must be targetted by magic/shooting or charged) and perhaps a unit of gutter runners. Maybe make the rat swarm unit larger?

PBGhost
30-05-2005, 12:19
I personally would take out the clanrats and add lots of units of 5 nightrunners (no upgrades, so a measly 25pt. unit must be targetted by magic/shooting or charged) and perhaps a unit of gutter runners. Maybe make the rat swarm unit larger?

Armed with what? Nothing? They're going to lose combat so easily and then they'll get run down and everyone will panic.

Riddy
30-05-2005, 12:38
Whats the point in taking the eshin list? Basically you are taking the list for no reason other than the Eshin Sorc and i dont think taking a list for the rules of one single model that isn't actually that great is a good idea. I would personally drop the eshin sorc and the assassin, take a normal skaven army at 1K and leave the Eshin list to 2K games. You can fit 2 Warlock engineers with upgrades (no pistols) and a Chieften with great weapon and warpstone amulet for the points of the other 2 characters.

Cpt. Drill
30-05-2005, 14:54
I would only compare this to cheese on the fact i bet cheese would be about as good on a warhammer table! you have no need for so many models take another assasin maybe with warpstone stars try to get a triad and more night runners.... block infantry will be destroyed because it will be the only thing the enemy can attack!

PBGhost
30-05-2005, 21:10
Don't Eshin also get bonus points for taking out the enemy General? The Eshin Sorceror allows me to not only catapult the assassin into combat to get said points, but give my normal rats LD 10.

meowser
30-05-2005, 23:53
drop the spears (thats 60 points) and take the sacred ratling gun... i never leave the underempire without one!

Sariel
31-05-2005, 08:40
Squeek. I LIKE Eshin armies with ranked units. My opponents like them too - they're actually pretty fun to play with, especially if you go character-light.

And no, the army is hardly cheesy. Incredibly friendly, actually. No ratling guns, no Warp Lightning, and only 2 power dice to cast skitterleap, which means your opponent will always have a 50/50 chance of dispelling it even if he does'nt take any mages? Nah... no cheese.

That being said, some of suggestions?

1) Drop the Assassin - in a 1K game, he's overkill. Chances are, there really won't be anything expensive enough to justify the risk of him fluffing his attacks and getting killed.

Instead, get TWO Sorcerors. One level 2 would be nice, if only so you can cast 2 skitterleaps a turn on 2 dice. Park them in your Clanrat units (like you said, they get Ld 10 that way), but feel free to cast skitterleap every chance you get. Thing is, Eshin Sorcerors might not be the close-combat monsters like Assassins, but they are'nt bad either - 2 WS4 poisonous attacks? Feel free to jump them out to engage enemy war machines - outside of Dwarven war machine crews and Scraplaunchers, you've got a pretty good chance to take out any enemy war machine you care to name.

Also, since EVERYONE knows that mages are useless in close combat and you don't have an Assassin, feel free to use the Eshin Sorcerors to engage any enemy magic-users hiding in a forest somewhere.


2) Slaves. Good. 21 Slaves are better. Takes 6 casualties from missile fire before they panic instead of 5.

3) Clanrats - again, good. Like another poster said, drop the spears. You might also want to consider dropping 1 unit and bumping the other two up to units of 24 or 25 for the same reason given above. Also, ranks are your friends - especially for Skaven! 2 ratling guns (1 for each Clanrat regiment) would'nt be amiss either - right now, you've got practically no troops that can deal with cavalry/high-toughness creatures. As for worries about cheese, 2 ratlings and STILL NO Warp Lightning? Hardly cheesy, especially considering how many more ratlings you could squeeze into a 1K list.... :p

4) Night runners - eh. Best used to grab/contest table quarters, and kept as far away from your main units as possible. A bargain at 25 points, 2 units of 5 are just nice to park in extreme corners of your deployment zone, where they won't trigger panic if destroyed or broken. If nothing else, they'll contest those two table quarters, can be used to march-block flanking forces and they can always try to make a dash in late-game to contest/grab enemy quarters if you've got nothing there.

If an opponent goes after them, well, chances are, anything he sends after them will cost more than they do... pretty fair trade imho.

Cheesejoff
02-06-2005, 11:19
1) Drop the Assassin - in a 1K game, he's overkill. Chances are, there really won't be anything expensive enough to justify the risk of him fluffing his attacks and getting killed.

Well he does get +100VPs for killing the enemy General...but it may not be worth it in all cases.

Frankly
02-06-2005, 15:59
In 1000pt games it usually is.

Personally I think you should go character heavy .. abit more magic .. bound spells especially to draw dispel dice and scrolls.

Think about hassassment troops, throwing stars and poison, units that make your opponant react to them. I'm all for eshin lists playing to there strengths, harrassment, mobility and numbers.

I like the idea and clan rats and slaves in a eshin, but I prefer to play them like assasin ningas, i think thats way cooler.

Triads are well, well worth their points.

Thats rat swarm is a good option.

Sariel
02-06-2005, 17:53
Well he does get +100VPs for killing the enemy General...but it may not be worth it in all cases.

Well, if you do manage to ice the General, it is, since you get:

100 VP for killing the General
100 VP for killing a character
+ cost of character.

All this in return for a 170-point hero. Yeah. Its worth it.

Trouble is, there is a world of difference between an Assassin with a Weeping Blade and a Master Assassin with a Fell Blade. S5 just isn't going to cut it against anything with a 1+/2+ armour save.

With 3 S5 d3 wound attacks, Assassins are there to whack mages.

Once he starts going up against fighty characters (unless its an Elven fighty character), it gets a lot more trickier, since they're usually T4+ with pretty respectable armour saves (ward saves optional).

Great if the other guy's general is a level 2 High Elf mage with 50 points worth of toys. Not so good if his general is an Empire Captain with a 1+ save.

Sariel
02-06-2005, 18:13
Personally I think you should go character heavy .. abit more magic .. bound spells especially to draw dispel dice and scrolls.


Ok. Trouble is, you don't exactly have access to all that many bound spells OR magic. Your Sorcerors have 1 spell - Skitterleap, which is usually used to move your Assassin into contact with enemy characters. Your bound spells - Bands of Power and 1-shot Warpscrolls.... hardly overwhelming.

Against some armies, about the only thing you can do is hope you roll a 13.



Think about hassassment troops, throwing stars and poison, units that make your opponant react to them. I'm all for eshin lists playing to there strengths, harrassment, mobility and numbers.

I like the idea and clan rats and slaves in a eshin, but I prefer to play them like assasin ningas, i think thats way cooler.


Oh yes. Ninja rats are just adorable. Trouble is, they are pretty much a one-trick pony. Your Sorcerors keep trying to get Skitterleap off, while your various ninja rats (Night Runners, Gutter Runners and Triads) try to pick off his support troops. Whack the characters, run like the wind and leave his ranked units there scratching their heads...

In a pitched battle, there is absolutely no reason for an opponent to advance against an all-skirmish Eshin list, and skitterleaping Assassins are defeated by the very simple expedient of sticking your characters in units and parking another (cheap) unit right in front of them. You can't charge a character if there isn't anywhere for you to land.

Once you start putting in Ranks and Ratlings, it actually becomes more viable - you have a chance to engage the other guy's ranked units (or just gun them down where they stand), giving your Assassins a shot at their targets.

One of the ironies of the Eshin list - the more top-heavy the opponent's army (ie lots of points spent on characters and small, elite units), the easier it is for an Eshin player to score points. (ie you actually WANT to see the other guy field a cheesy min-maxed army).

Eshin Master Assassins rub their paws in glee when they see Greater Daemons, High Elven Archmages, Necrarch Lords. Not so hot when the other guy has a bog-standard Elector Count in heavy cavalry kit (full plate, shield, barded warhorse)and a Holy Relic in a unit of Swordsmen with a Free Company detachment right in front of him.......




Triads are well, well worth their points.

Thats rat swarm is a good option.

Hell yeah! Triads are a bargain for the points. A wee bit vulnerable to heavy enemy magic, but you can't have everything. Never leave home without 1. 2 if you can afford it.

Rat swarms are also pretty essential - its nice to have a unit that WON'T break and run. Ever. Plague Rat Swarms are nice too, since they actually become scary and can take down a Giant in 1 turn, but they're horribly expensive.

Frankly
02-06-2005, 19:04
Oh yes. Ninja rats are just adorable. Trouble is, they are pretty much a one-trick pony.

The army is a one trick pony. :rolleyes: ... its a skirmish armylist I'm referring too.

I though you could get 2 bound spells items and scrolls + warp stones ... don't know, my books at home ... I'm at work.

Why would you "whack" mages with assassins when you can kill them off with gutter runners.

Sariel
02-06-2005, 19:26
The army is a one trick pony. :rolleyes: ... its a skirmish armylist I'm referring too.


Um. Lemme get this straight - the skirmish army list is a one-trick pony, and an Eshin list with ranked units actually has some sort of tactical flexiblity and does'nt rely purely on 'leaping Assassins to win the game? Yes? :)



I though you could get 2 bound spells items and scrolls + warp stones ... don't know, my books at home ... I'm at work.


'Fraid not. Bands of Power and that's it. Warpscrolls and Warpstorm Scrolls for the Sorcerors. Gimme warpstone tokens anytime..



Why would you "whack" mages with assassins when you can kill them off with gutter runners.

I would'nt. Heck. My SORCERORS kill mages (albeit over 2 turns unless I get lucky with my poison).

Which is the problem with Assassins, imo.

1) They have nowhere near the sheer combat potential of a Master with the Fell Blade, especially since there is a huge difference between S5 and S10.

2) Its a chancy proposition sending them out after combat characters, and overkill when going after mages. As such, I find them rather iffy in small (ie under 2000-point) games, and don't have much use for them in 2K+ games except as mobile fire support (yay for Warpstone Stars!).

PBGhost
02-06-2005, 22:07
In some cases the Assassin will be a bit overkill/not enough but there are many situations he could be useful where a mage can't. Vampire Thralls, Chaos Sorcerors, Skaven Chieftans, Orc Shamans (T4), High Elf Commanders are just some I can think of. Tougher Heroes with bad equipment also.

EDIT: Hows this list?

Assassin w/ Smoke Bombs, Weeping Blade

Sorceror, General

2x20 Slaves

2x20 Clanrats w/ Full Command, Warpfire Throwers

2 Rat Swarms

4x5 Night Runners w/ 2 Hand Weapons

106 models, 3 dispell dice, 3 power dice

Frankly
03-06-2005, 03:20
[QUOTE=Sariel]Um. Lemme get this straight - the skirmish army list is a one-trick pony, and an Eshin list with ranked units actually has some sort of tactical flexiblity and does'nt rely purely on 'leaping Assassins to win the game? Yes? :)



'Fraid not. Bands of Power


I would'nt. Heck. My SORCERORS kill mages (albeit over 2 turns unless I get lucky with my poison).

[QUOTE]

An assassin can't have Bands of power to draw out dispell dice?

I didn't get that last bit at all. You said that you would use assassins to kill mage ... I said I'd go for skirmish option.

Sorry for hijacking your thread PBGhost. But I am very interested in other people views on eshin and assassin armies, I've only seen pure skirmish eshin armies.

I'm very interested in how a rank and file eshin list goes.

Sariel
03-06-2005, 14:51
An assassin can't have Bands of power to draw out dispell dice?


The Assassin could have the Bands of Power. Except, well, most Eshin armies rely heavily on Skitterleap. So, I've got an Assassin within 12" of 2 Eshin Sorcerors, and he's hiding in a corner. He activates the Bands of Power - what's going to happen next? :D

I'm not going to waste dispel dice on Bands of Power, since, if I stop Skitterleap, the Assassin can flex his bulging biceps all he wants, but its not going to hurt me... (unless he's cunningly placed his Assassin in a position where I'll have to charge him the next turn....)

The Bands of Power just don't have the scare potential of bound items like the Ring of Fury or the Book of Arkhan.

Now, if you gave the Bands to a SORCEROR, on the other hand... *grins*




In some cases the Assassin will be a bit overkill/not enough but there are many situations he could be useful where a mage can't. Vampire Thralls, Chaos Sorcerors, Skaven Chieftans, Orc Shamans (T4), High Elf Commanders are just some I can think of. Tougher Heroes with bad equipment also.


Um. These guys actually come pretty close to the "not enough" category, imho. A S5 Assassin is going to be wounding them (except for Elf Commanders) on hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s.

As for the list:

1) If you're dead-set on using an Assassin, might as well get 3 Assassins - buy a Triad! Sure, they can't be skitterleaped, but they're going to be a lot more effective in a 1000-point game, imho. Certainly more in character with an Eshin army, since they're one of the few Eshin-only unit types.

2) Why not ratling guns? Considerably more effective, since they're effective against just about any troop type in the game - cavalry, skirmishers, flyers, infantry....

3) I'd just take 2 units of Night Runners with no upgrades. They MIGHT have a chance thin-slicing a Great Eagle, but that's about it...

The most attractive thing about them, imho? They're cheap. 25-point mainstay units that can still hold/contest table quarters? Keep them cheap and save the points for your Gutter Runners.

A list something like this.....

Eshin Sorceror x2
5 Night Runners x2
20 Clanrats, musician, Ratling Gun x2
21 Slaves x2
2 Rat Swarms
6 Gutter Runners, poisoned hand weapons
Eshin Triad

107 models, 4 power dice, 4 dispel dice.

Slaves in front, Clanrats behind, ratlings in between. Swarms swarm, Night Runners sit down and play cards (or possibly move to march-block any enemy flankers.. your call), Gutter Runners and Triad scout and look for soft squishy things to beat up on.

Slaves run forward, Clanrats and ratlings trundle, play bait-and-flee or deflect charges with the Slaves, or alternatively hold and let rip at the melee with the Ratlings. Clanrats prepare for flank charges. Pretty standard Skaven tactics.

And while this is going on, feel free to keep casting Skitterleap on 2 dice. Keep his mage(s) honest. If nothing else, you can always use the Warpstone token on turn 6 to jump out and contest HIS table quarters.

Of course, if you see a T3 war machine crew/mage wandering around alone, confident in the knowledge that your Triad is on the other side of the table, feel free to cast Skitterleap on the Sorceror who is NOT your General, so he can go say hi to that lone mage...

Sariel
03-06-2005, 15:16
Sorry for hijacking your thread PBGhost. But I am very interested in other people views on eshin and assassin armies, I've only seen pure skirmish eshin armies.

I'm very interested in how a rank and file eshin list goes.

Yeah - apologies to PBGhost, but I figure this sort of applies to using/building an Eshin army, so I'm not TOO apologetic.... :D

Right. Well, like I mentioned earlier, two problems with pure skirmishing Eshin armies.

1) Eshin skirmish hordes basically revolve around skitterleaping Assassins and avoiding contact with anything else except poor lost support units wandering around in the dark, thereby whittling points away from an opponent. Very in character, but also very frustrating to play against.

2) Which sort of segues into my second point (which I've mentioned earlier) - there is absolutely NO incentive to advance against an Eshin skirmisher army unless you're running a scenario other than Pitched Battle.

I'm just going to turtle up in a tight, mutually-supporting formation in one corner, with units covering my blind spots, ranked units parked in front of my characters and war machines parked in front of my ranked units. In short, everyone starts playing like a Dwarf.


Putting ranked units in helps by:

1) Giving your opponent something to aim at, thereby reducing frustration on your opponent's part (and increasing the chance of a second game).

2) Actually giving you a chance at engaging horde, magic-heavy or (some) undead armies.

Skaven infantry isn't half-bad, especially since your Sorcerors (and a Master Assassin in large games) can give your ranked infantry Ld 10 very easily. 4 solid blocks backed up by some of the best skirmishers in the game (Gutter Runners and Triads) is pretty respectable.

You gain a little in terms of tactical flexibility - fast ranked infantry, ratlings and disposable Slave units v. little 5-8 strong skirmishing units that can't really handle ranked infantry and solid heavy cavalry units.

You also gain some durability - ranked infantry is considerably more durable against things like magic missiles (Cover of Night is just too darned irregular to count on, since 2/3 of the time, you're going to be able to see up to 18" anyway!)


For instance, an Eshin army with ranked units would actually have a better chance against a necromancer-led VC list

High leadership and decent infantry (not to mention ratling guns) give you a chance to take down the wall of zombies in front of those necromancers, while your support units beat up his support units.

When you consider that 4 out of 5 Necromancy spells don't need LOS, there really is no reason for a Necromancer to be exposed to combat, after all, and he can still peek out from between 2 Skeleton units 1/2" apart to cast Gaze of Nagash.

You can always skitterleap a Master Assassin into combat AFTER you've chopped up his meat shield.

PBGhost
03-06-2005, 21:42
I'm unsure about the Triad. Many others would see it as cheesy, and apart from that--its a 6 wound T4 no save unit. Without cover of the night, things like Empire Handgunners and Dwarf Thunderers will blast them apart.

monstallion
04-06-2005, 00:36
dont forget that they skirmish so empire will at best be hitting on 5's and thats if you leave them out as your front unit, thats why you have night runners to form a bit of a skirmish screen so your triads can get round the sides of the oppostion / make them leave a flank open.

also just a little note my eshin army at 2000 points has no trouble in taking care of big fully ranked up units you just have to hit them with the right units and all at the same time eg 2 triads an assassin with weeping blade and a large unit of gutter runners normally do the trick just avoid iron breakers. units of knights are not too bad as should be hitting a flank so only have to kill a few to mean they dont get an attack back :)