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RunepriestRidcully
13-02-2011, 08:30
It's said if Ahriman were to ever get into the Black liberary e would become a new chaos God, I thought, could he actually become Tzeentch?
A) once acsended, Tzeentch-Ahriman could send himself back in time using his sorcery.
B)It would Ironic
C)The asencion would proberbly drive Ahriman mad, turning him into Tzeentch as we know it.
D) explains why Tzeentch, despite having had several oppertunities, as not finished off the emperor, he still feels respect for him.
Though it does leave a fair number of loose threads (such as the whole mutation thing) it would be really ironic if that was the case.
any other theories on what the asencion of Ahriman to godhood would result in/cause (perhaps trigger the Rhana Dhandra maybe?)

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 08:36
He did enter the Black Library afaik and even stole a book. Still, he is not a Chaos God.

Reflex
13-02-2011, 10:07
I thought he got close but the harlies stopped him by the skin of their chinny chin chin.
cant help with the questions sorry.

Zweischneid
13-02-2011, 10:18
There's plenty of (minor) Chaos Gods. Not everone turning into a God must replace one of the more widely known 4.

El_Machinae
13-02-2011, 10:47
I'm under the impression that the Tzeentch god is orders of magnitude more powerful and inscrutable than any human (or human+) could ever be. It's like suggesting that a geneticist could modify himself to become an ecosystem.

chriscrowing
13-02-2011, 11:01
I don't think you can ascend to goodhood purely by reading a book. Godhood comes from belief - knowledge can make you a wapr power, but theres always a older, bigger, nastier one out there.

There are warp powers for every emotion, for every particular belief - in order to ascend, Ahriman would need to embody something and scoop up all the warp energy created by that belief/trope etc. He'd still not have one millionth the power or influence of the Big 4.

Think of it this way, the Emperor has had 40'000 years of reasearch and 10'000 years of soaking up the majority of the worship of the human race and he's not (quite) a God yet.

Zweischneid
13-02-2011, 11:03
I'm under the impression that the Tzeentch god is orders of magnitude more powerful and inscrutable than any human (or human+) could ever be. It's like suggesting that a geneticist could modify himself to become an ecosystem.

Not really. 40K Gods are not monotheistic, all-powerful, abrahamic Gods.



Gods are able to devote a fraction of their power to create daemons, whose appearance and character reflect the god's own nature. These daemons may be reabsorbed into the god at whim. The least of the minor Gods may be so limited in their power that expending their power to create a daemon means their entire power is expended; in effect, the god becomes a daemon.


Minor Chaos Gods may have enough power to become/manifest as a Daemon, perhaps a greater Daemon. Larger/Major Gods may perhaps manifest themselves as multiple greater Daemons, though that would be taxing. Thus, a Lord of Change, perhaps two or three (including named ones) , is the power/essence of Tzeentch expressed in corporal forms. We also have a good gauge at the power of C'Tan Star Gods and the Avatar of Khaine.

Most Lords and Special Characters (like Ahriman) are not that far away from "godhood/god-power" as it exists in 40K terms.

chriscrowing
13-02-2011, 12:39
Most Lords and Special Characters (like Ahriman) are not that far away from "godhood/god-power" as it exists in 40K terms.

For a given (i.e. not much) value of God-hood.

God-hood in 40k has prerequisites.

It either comes about 'naturally' as the coalesced gestalt of a certain kind of emotion/belief in the warp - this is how (mostly) humankind's wrath, despair & scheming manifested as Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, how the Eldar value of leadership, compassion, smithcraft, humour and martial ability manifested as Asuryan, Isha, Vaul, the Laughing God and Khaine and how the Eldar's indulgence spawned Slaanesh.

This approach also leads to less powerful, less well known deities formed of less (for want of a better word) popular beliefs/emotions such as Malal.

It can also (theoretically) be acheived 'artificially' by a sufficiently powerful (psychically speaking) individual, fuelling their potential through the belief of others. The best example of this is the Emperor of Mankind who has been powering up for 10k years and still hasn't become a God - possibly because he's still tied to the Golden Throne.

The closest any mortals have come to becoming Chaos Gods is the traitor Primarchs, most of whom have become Daemon Princes. However, this approach actually disavows them from God-hood of their own as their augmented daemon-power is on loan from one or more of the major powers, and should they make a play for their own power and the 4 remove their boons....well, they'd be seriously depowered and realise they were dancing to someone elses tune for a long time.

It has been strongly hinted that Ahriman is a tool of Tzeentch for a long time, whether he knows it or not (@Magnusss, you would ssssmash my pawnsss to readily...) so even if he did discover enough lore to daemonise himself, he would just be absorbing part of the power of Tzeentch, which is exactly what the Lord of Change wants.

I also think Ahriman would regard turning himself into a void creature to be a debasement of his humanity, given his abhorrence of the flesh change to the point where he automatised the bulk of the Thousand Sons to prevent further corruption.

I still think that Ahriman, like Cypher and a few others is actually still playing for the good guys, just from a different angle....

Iracundus
13-02-2011, 12:42
A Chaos Undivided daemon prince or minor god would not be dancing to the tune of the Big 4. They may be small fish in a big pond but they're still independent. That may be what Ahriman is aiming for: becoming a self established independent god.

ryng_sting
13-02-2011, 12:44
If Ahriman ever has his moment of triumph in the Black Library...I think Tzeentch will suddenly appear with a video camera and a tacky catchphrase.

El_Machinae
13-02-2011, 13:14
Not really. 40K Gods are not monotheistic, all-powerful, abrahamic Gods.


I know! I only talked about a few orders of magnitude. We're still talking less than the power wielded by a type III civilization, when we talk of 40k gods.

tuebor
13-02-2011, 13:33
I still think that Ahriman, like Cypher and a few others is actually still playing for the good guys, just from a different angle....

I really like the idea that Ahriman is scouring the galaxy trying to find a way to reverse the Rubric while still protecting the Legion from Tzeentch. A warband with Ahriman at the head is really the only Chaos army I've seriously considered playing.

chriscrowing
13-02-2011, 13:44
If Ahriman ever has his moment of triumph in the Black Library...I think Tzeentch will suddenly appear with a video camera and a tacky catchphrase.

I see that being more like Ahriman grabbing his Grimoire of Forbidden Eldar Lore with a big smile, Tzeentch (or more likely a delegated Lord of Change)appears, taps him on the shoulder, says something like 'you took your time', yoinks the book and vanishes and Ahriman is left standing there, suddenly revealed, no psychoic powers and some Guardians and Farseers show up in no mood to negotiate...


I really like the idea that Ahriman is scouring the galaxy trying to find a way to reverse the Rubric while still protecting the Legion from Tzeentch. A warband with Ahriman at the head is really the only Chaos army I've seriously considered playing.

I like the idea that just as there are loyalists who are in fact furthering the chaos agenda (IMHO, the Ecclesiarchy, large chunks of the Inquisition and about half the high lords) no matter how unknowingly, there are those amongst the Traitor Legions who don't want to be corrupted by Chaos and actually wish to break free of it and find redemption in the Emperor/humanity's eyes.

Thousand Sons led by Ahriman is interesting, but so is an Alpha Legion force for much the same (if less arcane) reasons.

orz192
13-02-2011, 17:42
The whole thing with the Thousand Sons, and Arhiman in particular is that they are in constant search of knowledge for it's own sake. They don't really explicitly serve chaos they just look to it to increase their intelligence and power.

And Magnus is already in a way a god, if you consider a Daemon Primarch a god.

Stonerhino
13-02-2011, 19:51
I think Arhiman believes in the idea that the Eldar gods were ascended Old Ones. To that we have the fact that Khorne did not destroy Khaine. Which is to say that the Eldar Gods were either of equal power or close enough to make the outcome uncertain.

How he came to this idea is unknown. But if true. He could be trying to become a god of near Tzeentch power. So he can free his legion from Tzeentch.

It's also possible that he believes the Eldar gods were created by the Old Ones and the Eldar have hints as to how it was done. If this is the case he could be trying to create an entire Patheon of new gods.

orz192
13-02-2011, 23:07
I think Arhiman believes in the idea that the Eldar gods were ascended Old Ones. To that we have the fact that Khorne did not destroy Khaine. Which is to say that the Eldar Gods were either of equal power or close enough to make the outcome uncertain.

How he came to this idea is unknown. But if true. He could be trying to become a god of near Tzeentch power. So he can free his legion from Tzeentch.

It's also possible that he believes the Eldar gods were created by the Old Ones and the Eldar have hints as to how it was done. If this is the case he could be trying to create an entire Patheon of new gods.


Can you provide a source for this? Or is it fan fluff

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 05:44
Stonerhino, according to the very old fluff, Khorne did see Khaine as a part of him. Probably nobody can tell how much this is still valid, but it clearly specifies that Khaine was not an opponent of Khorne at all.

Stonerhino
14-02-2011, 07:47
Can you provide a source for this? Or is it fan fluffYou should know that answer because I started it with "I think". But There is in-universe fluff that shows that the idea of the Old Ones being or making the Eldar Gods. And if it was just a matter of going to the Black Library = become a God then the universe would be filled with gods. Since there have been many people to enter. Ahriman, has to have a reason for it. Otherwise it's just pointless.

In the end it's a conection that I made and so does not have a source.

Khorne, felt that Khaine's power belonged to him. That's why he tryed to stop Slaneesh from absorbing it. Ending with Khaine being broken apart creating the Avatars.

Iracundus
14-02-2011, 08:43
But There is in-universe fluff that shows that the idea of the Old Ones being or making the Eldar Gods.

Actually there isn't such explicit evidence. We know the Old Ones had a hand in modifying or shaping the Eldar, but that is different from actually being their gods.



And if it was just a matter of going to the Black Library = become a God then the universe would be filled with gods. Since there have been many people to enter. Ahriman, has to have a reason for it. Otherwise it's just pointless.

The permitted entrants to the Black Library are not going there to hoard or read every single book and amass all that knowledge there for themselves. Ahriman has a history of going to libraries or other collections of knowledge, taking it all or copying it all, and then destroying the original to ensure only he has the knowledge. Just read his entry in the Codex for that.



In the end it's a conection that I made and so does not have a source.


Ok, so it's fan fluff then.

FlashGordon
14-02-2011, 20:19
Ok, so it's fan fluff then.

No it is a fan hypothesis. Fan fluff indicates fluff that interrupt regular fluff background. Like the Dornian Heresy for example.

orz192
14-02-2011, 20:31
No it is a fan hypothesis. Fan fluff indicates fluff that interrupt regular fluff background. Like the Dornian Heresy for example.

The book that covers why Ahriman wanted to go into the Black Library was written by C.S. Goto and most people choose to ignore his books.

But what I seem to remember it being something about a map of the webway?

The Harlequins guard the black library and in Goto's book they trick Ahriman into choosing a portal that doesn't lead to the black library.

If having access to the black library and the information there, which the Harlequins have, then they would be gods by your theory right?

GhoulStars
14-02-2011, 21:40
not necessarily, they serve as the library's guardians, surely that would make them more like angels than god?

orz192
15-02-2011, 01:19
not necessarily, they serve as the library's guardians, surely that would make them more like angels than god?

Sorry, I was being sarcastic toward the person I quoted. I dont think the Harlequin are gods or angels.

GhoulStars
15-02-2011, 02:29
Fair enough, but my reasoning is still sound in that regard ^^

Stonerhino
15-02-2011, 06:56
Actually there isn't such explicit evidence. We know the Old Ones had a hand in modifying or shaping the Eldar, but that is different from actually being their gods. In Xenology we are shown a stone with images on it. This stone is known to the Inquisition. It is this stone that shows the theory. Also the =][= does not have Ahriman's access to ancient warp creatures/deamon that may be able to shead more light on the subject.

We know that Ahriman either will or at least thinks he can become a god with the information in the black library.

The only place that in the fluff that suggest that this can happen involves the Old Ones and the gods of their young races. The Eldar being the only ones that are known to have something like the Black Library. Which just happens to be where Ahriman wants to go.


The book that covers why Ahriman wanted to go into the Black Library was written by C.S. Goto and most people choose to ignore his books That can't be further from the truth.


Over the millennia Ahriman has sought out magical artefacts, ancient arcane books, talented psykers and any aspect of sorcerous knowledge or power.

[Snip]
Deep in his black heart Ahriman believes that he can find the final pieces of the puzzle within the hidden dimentions of the Black Library of the Eldar.

[Snip]
Suck knowledge would make Ahriman a new and deadly god.

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 08:12
In Xenology we are shown a stone with images on it. This stone is known to the Inquisition. It is this stone that shows the theory. Also the =][= does not have Ahriman's access to ancient warp creatures/deamon that may be able to shead more light on the subject.

The stone shows no theory. The stone shows an image. Whatever conjectures the Inquisitor draws from it are in-character theories and thus fallible. Whatever conjectures the reader draws are the reader's conjectures and interpretations. What the actual objective truth and background behind the stone and what it portrays remains unknown. There is no explicit evidence that the images portrayed on that stone equate to an ascension as you claimed. There are other potential interpretations and the flaw in your position is you jump to the conclusion that there is only your interpretation as the only possible interpretation of that stone.



The only place that in the fluff that suggest that this can happen involves the Old Ones and the gods of their young races. The Eldar being the only ones that are known to have something like the Black Library. Which just happens to be where Ahriman wants to go.

Except there isn't proof that there was any ascension or apotheosis. You are using your own personal interpretations of an image as "evidence" for something being the case. You are making the theory sound as if it were a proven fact and then using that as base for your speculation on Ahriman, when the former is by no means a given. There has never been official explicit evidence for any form of "ascended" Old One being an Eldar god or directly making a god. It has at most been a theory among fans, but that is a world of difference from being a fact. As you admitted in a previous post, it is a connection you made and there is no source.

Stonerhino
15-02-2011, 10:44
The Stone exist and yes it's the Inquisitor that states what he thinks of the images on the stone. It does not matter fallible his opinion is. Because for him it's only a single source. What it does do though is to provide the potential in-universe for his opinion to also be viewed the same by other in-universe characters.

In the second part that you quoted "The only place that in the fluff that suggest that this can happen involves the Old Ones and the gods of their young races". There is nowhere else in the fluff to suggest this happening. So the statement is still valid untill GW says otherwise. Or provides another possible solution to how Ahriman will become a god.

So is there a souce to say Ahriman believes that the Eldar Gods were ascended Old Ones. No. But in the cannon fluff it's the only possible way so far to become a god and it's not 100% as to whether or not it even happened in the first place (Old Ones).

The alternative is to believe that the Eldar discovered long ago how to become "New and deadly Gods" and just choose not to do it. But kept the book A Big Dumbies Guide to Becoming a God sitting on the shelf.

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 10:51
The Stone exist and yes it's the Inquisitor that states what he thinks of the images on the stone. It does not matter fallible his opinion is. Because for him it's only a single source. What it does do though is to provide the potential in-universe for his opinion to also be viewed the same by other in-universe characters.

The in-universe opinions have no relevance in so far as determining what the objective truth is. Just because some people think that way doesn't mean it still can't be a wildly off target opinion.



In the second part that you quoted "The only place that in the fluff that suggest that this can happen involves the Old Ones and the gods of their young races". There is nowhere else in the fluff to suggest this happening. So the statement is still valid untill GW says otherwise. Or provides another possible solution to how Ahriman will become a god.

Realms of Chaos clearly shows minor gods of Chaos and even ascended daemon princes being like demigods. Mortarion gave out his own daemonic gifts in the original Realms of Chaos and in all ways acted like a minor god, acting as patron albeit still under the ultimate umbrella authority of Nurgle.



So is there a souce to say Ahriman believes that the Eldar Gods were ascended Old Ones. No. But in the cannon fluff it's the only possible way so far to become a god and it's not 100% as to whether or not it even happened in the first place (Old Ones).

It isn't shown to be the only possible way. That is the whole point. You repeatedly keep mixing in your own interpretation when you make such declarative statements by first claiming that the Old Ones ascended or created the Eldar gods, then by saying because they did so this is the only known way to become a god. You keep taking unproven points as fact.

You keep jumping to saying it is the only way, based on your interpretation, when it hasn't been shown that 1) there was such an ascension 2) that the only way possible was the way it was done.



The alternative is to believe that the Eldar discovered long ago how to become "New and deadly Gods" and just choose not to do it. But kept the book A Big Dumbies Guide to Becoming a God sitting on the shelf.

Or there is no precise way and Ahriman is simply trying to reach a critical point of knowledge and power that he believes will achieve apotheosis for him.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 10:53
Were the old ones not killed by the enslavers?

Source - 4th ed rulebook

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 10:56
Were the old ones not killed by the enslavers?

Source - 4th ed rulebook

Quote and page?

And thus far, no they weren't. Their civilization collapsed which is an entirely different thing from being killed off. The Necron Codex explicitly mentions how there are degenerate Old One descendants still alive in the galaxy.

AvatarForm
15-02-2011, 11:01
@OP - wouldnt Tzeentch/Ahriman going back in time to ensure everything goes exactly to plan become a paradox?

Paradox theories and discussions usually go in circles...

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:02
And thus far, no they weren't. Their civilization collapsed which is an entirely different thing from being killed off. The Necron Codex explicitly mentions how there are degenerate Old One descendants still alive in the galaxy.


Quote and page?

If the old ones were not killed off then where are they?

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 11:07
Quote and page?

If the old ones were not killed off then where are they?

I am still waiting for your quote.

The degenerate Old Ones are still around on backwater worlds as stated below. If there are any remaining undegenerate ones, they seem to be keeping a low profile.



The Legacy of the Old Ones
The C'tan still have an abiding hatred of their ancient enemies, the Old Ones. Although their civilisation is no more, it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds. These rather tragic creatures are a choice delicacy to the C'tan so they attach a disproportionate importance to seeking them out. This can be exploited by the Eldar to ambush and destroy Necrons or to lure them from their tombs. p. 61, Necron Codex

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:14
I am still waiting for your quote.


Soz you were right about the phrasing "causeed the collapse of blah blah vlah civilisation


The degenerate Old Ones are still around on backwater worlds as stated below. If there are any remaining undegenerate ones, they seem to be keeping a low profile.

But they did kil them in the long run as they have degenerated because of a lackj of gene pool

sory bout bad spelling short quote got to go back to work

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 11:15
But they did kil them in the long run as they have degenerated because of a lackj of gene pool


If they have survived for millions of years in their current primitive state, then that is hardly killing them off. One could even make the argument they have picked a successful strategy for survival, just like the Exodites.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:45
If they have survived for millions of years in their current primitive state, then that is hardly killing them off. One could even make the argument they have picked a successful strategy for survival, just like the Exodites.
one could but that would be fan fiction.

And it says possibley, you seem to be taking this as solid fact

tut tut tut

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 11:47
The following sentence says they are a choice delicacy for the C'tan, not that they might be, and that they do attach a disproportionate importance to them, not that they might do so. Those are clear declarative statements.

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 11:49
The degenerate Old Ones are still around on backwater worlds as stated below.

(...) it is possible (...)
Note that this is a chance, not a stated fact.
And yes, they are a choice for C'tan, but my personal choice is Dodo.

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 11:51
See my earlier post. The subsequent sentences are clear declarative statements about what the C'tan consider them to be and on what they do. Such statements in the form they are phrased as are not possible to make about a hypothetical situation.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:52
The following sentence says they are a choice delicacy for the C'tan, not that they might be, and that they do attach a disproportionate importance to them, not that they might do so. Those are clear declarative statements.

'it is possible that some degenerate descendants'


the rest is speculation as they probably do taste nice.


But anyway. for Ahriman to be a god he would need followers/worshippers. He could obtain god like powers without ascending but to technically be called a god he would need worshippers

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 11:53
See my earlier post. The subsequent sentences are clear declarative statements about what the C'tan consider them to be and on what they do. Such statements in the form they are phrased as are not possible to make about a hypothetical situation.
No, it's not. As I said, my personal choice is Dodo. Still, does that mean Dodos are still existing? No.

However, a descended Old One is actually not entirely the same as an actual Old One. Or are humans the same as a Neanderthal man?

Apart of that, it is entirely not important for the topic about Ahriman ;)

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 11:53
'it is possible that some degenerate descendants'


the rest is speculation as they probably do taste nice.


If it were simply a speculation it would not say it in declarative terms.

It could just as easily have said "These creatures would be a choice delicacy" and "The C'tan would attach...", but instead the sentence says they are delicacies, and the C'tan actually do place disproportionate importance, rather than just stating it as a hypothetical situation or a conditional scenario.



No, it's not. As I said, my personal choice is Dodo. Still, does that mean Dodos are still existing? No.

Your sentence is not equivalent. Yours is a statement of your preference. The Necron Codex sentence is a statement about what these degenerate Old Ones are. There is a difference there in what the subjects are. Something cannot be a choice delicacy for someone in the present tense if it is nonexistent. One cannot say dinosaurs are a choice delicacy for humans as a meaningful sentence because dinosaurs are nonexistent for humans to eat. One could however say that someone stated their preference is to eat a dinosaur.

Lord Damocles
15-02-2011, 11:56
'It is possible that Lord Damocles lives in a mansion.'



Nuh uh! It says, 'it is possible'. Therefore Lord Damocles doesn't exist.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:58
Something cannot be a choice delicacy for someone in the present tense if it is nonexistent.

yes it can. i wouldnt mind a bit of dodo now. Or Giant turtle soup

If the c'tan liked eating them back in the day, then they disappear. It doesnt mean the the c'tan don't want to eat them anymore because there none left

silly billy

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 11:58
Your sentence is not equivalent.
If you say so... I guess I just stop here, as discussions with you lead nowhere else but off topic.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 11:59
'It is possible that Lord Damocles lives in a mansion.'



Nuh uh! It says, 'it is possible'. Therefore Lord Damocles doesn't exist.

no it means the mansion wouldnt necessarily exist. bad example

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 12:03
yes it can. i wouldnt mind a bit of dodo now. Or Giant turtle soup


Which is not equivalent to the Necron Codex. Your preference of what you want to eat is the subject of such statements. The subject of the Necron Codex statement is the Old Ones.



If the c'tan liked eating them back in the day, then they disappear. It doesnt mean the the c'tan don't want to eat them anymore because there none left


Again see above. You confuse the difference between a declarative statement where the preference is the subject with a declarative statement where the subject is the food item. A food item cannot be a delicacy in the present tense if it is nonexistent. It could only be stated as a past tense if it had since gone extinct.

You cannot say dodos are a delicacy among humans. That is a present tense statement. You could say dodos were a delicacy among humans. That is a valid statement. However the Necron Codex uses the present tense.

Lord Damocles
15-02-2011, 12:09
'It is possible that Lord Damocles lives in a mansion.'



Nuh uh! It says, 'it is possible'. Therefore Lord Damocles doesn't exist.

no it means the mansion wouldnt necessarily exist. bad example

'...it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds.'

So the descendants [Lord Damocles] do exist, but the backwater worlds [mansion] don't now?

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 12:10
Iracundus, you are trying to justify your idea with hairsplitting statements.
I can say: "my preferred target is Hitler". Now what?

Really... better get back on topic now.

It is Ahriman!

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 12:12
The necron codex also says POSSIBLE, again if you think it is definite, its fan fiction and you should post it on a fan fiction forum, not on a site with so many fluff nazi's ;)
And I have to agree with Hendarion, any conversation with you goes of topic
not only has it become aboot c'tan, but also grammar. Good day sir

Iracundus
15-02-2011, 12:13
Iracundus, you are trying to justify your idea with hairsplitting statements.
I can say: "my preferred target is Hitler". Now what?


It means nothing because again you are making a statement where the subject is your preference. You don't seem to be understanding the grammatical difference in the two types of statements and keep making statements that only fall into the first case. The difference is significant because the subjects are different. One is a preference, whereas the other is the actual concrete noun that is the choice delicacy for the C'tan.

Bubonic Chronic
15-02-2011, 12:14
'...it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds.'

So the descendants [Lord Damocles] do exist, but the backwater worlds [mansion] don't now?

my bad completely, anyway ahriman, bad ass **************** aint he?

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 12:20
...
:wtf: You are really believing that yourself, don't you? So please, either you return to the topic now or go make your own topic about nouns 'n stuff.

abasio
15-02-2011, 12:35
Which is not equivalent to the Necron Codex. Your preference of what you want to eat is the subject of such statements. The subject of the Necron Codex statement is the Old Ones.

Again see above. You confuse the difference between a declarative statement where the preference is the subject with a declarative statement where the subject is the food item. A food item cannot be a delicacy in the present tense if it is nonexistent. It could only be stated as a past tense if it had since gone extinct.

You cannot say dodos are a delicacy among humans. That is a present tense statement. You could say dodos were a delicacy among humans. That is a valid statement. However the Necron Codex uses the present tense.

You can actually use the simple present tense in this case while keeping it speculative. As the C'Tan have tasted the tasty old ones and that they believe there are more out there, we can use the present tense while keeping the speculative nature of the preceeding "possibly".

When I was younger I knew a slim girl with a surprising amount of back fat (none at the front though, seriously). Hugging her was a real treat as my hands always had something to squish on the back but nothing on the front got in the way of my enormous gut. I haven't seen her since I moved to Tokyo. It's possible that there are girls in Tokyo who are slim but have a surprising amount of back fat. I look hard for these girls because I like hugging girls with a lot of back fat but still slim round the front.

So although there may be no slim girls with lots of back fat in Tokyo I can still use the present tense to describe this situation.

I think in the quote provided the most important part is the "possibly" even if you were sterlingly correct about the grammar usage then I would still take the word "possibly" over the finer grammar point as the meaning of the word is a lot more definite than grammar which has a lot of different uses and exceptions. Also the writers might not have thought about the grammar as much as you did.

Sorry about the random example above but I did really used to know a girl who was extremely thing except for the back fat in which she has quite an impressive "back cleavage" :wtf:

About Ahriman, I thought that he believes that if he reaches a certain level of knowledge then he would ascend, not just that he could find a book to tell him how to do it. If he did ever get into the black library (again?) then he would surely need an eternity and a half to get through all the tomes they have there.

Wolfblade670
15-02-2011, 15:44
Guys can we get this thread back on topic please? I'd hate to see this interesting discussion derailed and closed over arguing semantics.

orz192
15-02-2011, 16:28
The current chaos codex doesn't mention Ahriman seeking to become a god. It seems to imply that he is only after knowledge for its own sake.

Magnus banished Ahriman from the planet of sorcerors to, "Wander the eye of terror and beyond in search of perfect understanding."

If he ascended to becoming a daemon I guess he would be a dem-god, but I think he is more like Abaddon in that regard. He isn't seeking to become a daemon prince, He wants knowledge and perfect understanding to be the source of his power.

At least that's what I garner from the codex.

The_NightBringer
15-02-2011, 19:53
'...it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds.'

So the descendants [Lord Damocles] do exist, but the backwater worlds [mansion] don't now?

Forgive me in my ignorance. But isn't how both of them sentences constructed suggest where the noun (which in this context is only being employed as a subject) may or may not be? Not necessarily creating a hypotheses of the nouns existence....Admittedly...If what I have said is deemed as "dumb" then I can only apologise. I'm only half way through High school. (Hopefully the Grammar Nazis may possess mercy, after sharing that last sentence :D)

Many regards, Nightbringer

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 20:04
Please stop talking about grammar or nouns. That is so much offtopic. Please use PMs if you really want to discuss it.

eyescrossed
15-02-2011, 20:53
not only has it become aboot c'tan, but also grammar
...of course it has. If you cannot understand basic grammar, then you cannot accurately determine the meaning of a sentence - especially if people more skilled in English refute your interpretation.

Not a personal attack on you; just showing that grammar does matter in this situation.


Anyway, on topic: why does Ahriman burn the libraries he's browsed through to the ground? Aside from the cheesy (abeilt true) "Knowledge is Power".

Swordsman
16-02-2011, 19:19
Relax Hendarion, you'll live longer.

I'm almost positive that nobody is going to take his joke about a cook - book as fact, and start spreading misinformation.

On topic, I'm of the opinion that Ahriman will ascend to a "demi-god" like level, akin to a Daemon Prince should he capture the knowledge of the Black Library. Either because of the knowledge within said library, or as a reward from the Changer of Ways.

Chiara
16-02-2011, 20:26
This thread will probably be closed soon, but I can only hope people just relax and step away from the keyboard or if need be, take it out of forum.

Did anyone read the book, a Thousand Sons? The prologue and epilogue suggest Ahriman is wandering the stars to seek the power of a God to undo the damage to his Legion and re-new it? The Rubric was a temporary fix that went horribly wrong and right at the exact moment in time. It gave Ahriman his boost in strength and power and he was saved by Tzeentch from Magnus' wrath.

He was forced to wander the stars. Well it is reasonable to suggest he is seeking power to free his legion from mutation, but I seriously doubt he will turn on Tzeentch. If anything he has come to realize what pawns and chess pieces are. He just seeks to play the game and make sure he wins. I doubt he'll obtain Daemonhood, but like Abaddon, he has probably had it offered.