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View Full Version : Advice please! Dark Elves vs Lizardmen



Ultros
13-02-2011, 09:01
Hi all,

I have just started playing Warhammer again against my girlfriend's younger brother.

He has a Lizardman army with two large blocks of Saurus warriors, a smaller unit of Temple Guard, a unit of Cold One cavalry, plus a few units of skinks, some characters and a Slann.

I have a growing Dark Elf army with access to most troop types, though I only have 5 cold one knights (which I haven't tried fielding yet) and have no Hydra or large monsters at present.

I am having major difficulties taking down his Saurus, COC and Temple Guard units which are stomping all over me!

In early games I tried (foolishly) taking them on with a large unit of spearmen and some witch elves who got butchered.

I have tried shooting them to pieces with repeater crossbowmen and bolt throwers but S3 and S4 attacks with low armour modifiers cause few casualties.

Tried flanking them with Dark Riders to shoot them up and slow their marches, but again S3 repeater crossbows make little impact, whilst their cold blooded ability means they aren't bothered about the close proximity of the DR.

Tried charging them with some Executioners but these again got massacred.

S4, T4, A2, LD8 with cold blood and lots of armour make Saurus hard to take down and totally deadly in combat it seems.

The only ranged attack that seems able to make an impact is the Black Horror spell (but again limited due to S4).

Meanwhile my Black Guard are the only combat unit that can go toe to toe with them and win, and that is not without incurring heavy casualties. I can only have one unit of these bad boys and they cannot be everywhere at once!

We don't play using magic items as in the past I felt this unbalanced previou iterations of the game. Also I haven't experiemented yet with some of the other lores of magic available to me.

The only other thing I can think of that might be able to take them down is a Hydra (not got one yet) or maybe some Cold One Knights making a flank charge whilst one of my weaker melee units charges the front.

Can any of you veterans give me any tips that don't involve cheap tricks?!

jme
13-02-2011, 12:51
Dark elves can't really go toe to toe with a saurus but have lots of things to help.7

Take shadow magic, there are speels which reduce the S and T of the foe making it easier for you to hurt them and reduce the chances of them wounding you. It also has pit of shades which is deadly to lizardmen.

I've found witch elves to be very effective vs saurus if backed up with a cauldron. Give them an extra attack and the lizards will fall and if you lose combat your stubbon.

A hydra would be good but dont send it in unsupported.

Ultros
13-02-2011, 15:31
Thanks buddy - just been reading through the Shadow magic spells and they sound ideal. Like you say, the pit of shadows is clearly strong vs Saurus and desite the scatter, wouldn be good against a tightly packed army. I also like the penumbral pendulum spell too - basically turns the wizard into a walking cannon!

Not got a cauldron yet and only got a dozen witch elves so that one is not really viable yet.

Keeping my eyes peeled for Hydras on Ebay at the moment.

Thanks for the tips - I'll let you know how I get on with the Shadow magic next time we have a battle...

If anyone else has any pointers I'd be glad to hear them!

tmarichards
13-02-2011, 21:09
Okkams and elite infantry (black guard or witch elves), with the extra attack from the cauldron, will remove Temple Guard in 2 rounds of combat with ease. Pit may be good, but Okkams will be be better- no scatter, and it gives you 2 rounds of combat in which to use it.

StormCrow
13-02-2011, 23:40
Like everyone else I highly recommend shadow magic against lizardmen, dropping toughness and focus shooting with repeater bolt throwers and repeater crossbows will decimate any unit in the game. Shades and dark riders are also ideal for this purpose as they can get in close really quickly.

It's a shame you dont use magic item because a master with ring of hotek and cloak of hag graef on dark pegasus is one of the best anti slann units going around.

And as a final comment...GET A HYDRA

Don Zeko
13-02-2011, 23:47
I play DE and my twin brother plays Lizards, so I am in your predicament. A lot. I agree with what's been posted before, but let me add a couple of things. First, this is the list of units that you want to get in combat with Saurus warriors. Don't charge them with any other units in the list if you can possibly avoid it:

Black Guard
Cold One Knights
Hydras
Dragons
Anything that you have cast Okkam's on.

I agree that Shadow Magic is your friend, but you need to realize that the real strength of the lore is in the debuff spells. Fighting against Saurus that are S1 or S2, not to mention T1 or T2, is lots of fun. Okkam's is great if you can get it, but I find that it's difficult to cast reliably when you need it, whereas if you have Withering and Enfeebling Foe, you can attempt to cast both of them when a critical round of combat is coming up, making it likely that at least one will get through. Pit of shades kills stegadons dead, but his Slann will get a look out sir roll. You also need to learn to contain the Slann's magic. I assume that your opponent is running a Life Slann with the Rumination. There's no way to stop every spell he casts. instead, block these spells, listed in order of importance:

Dweller's
Flesh to Stone
Earthblood
Throne of Vines.

Take a dispel scroll and hold it back until the temple guard are about to be in combat with a strong unit. With the scroll, you should be able to ensure 2 full rounds of combat with the TG unbuffed. That's enough time for BG or COK to wipe the unit if you support them with a cauldron and a hydra. (oh, and you should have both of these things in any competitive DE list, but that applies to every opponent, not just lizards). The Slann is hard to kill and a killer in the magic phase, but if he dies, you will almost certainly win. Oh, and remember that the slann is vulnerable to killing blow now. If you deplete the TG enough to get the slann in base contact, get killing blow from the cauldron and direct every attack at him.

Learn to prioritize your crossbow fire. You won't do anything to saurus or stegadons (unless you cast the withering on them first, in which case you should hit them with every crossbow you've got), but skinks die very well to RXB's. Hit his chameleons and salamanders first.

You might also experiment with the brick wall dreadlord. Put him on a cold one with the crown of command, pendant of khaeleth, blood armor, and soulrender, then charge him into one of the LM players Saurus blocks. In all likelihood, he'll hold them in place for the rest of the game and take no wounds, leaving you to concentrate on the rest of the LM army.

Shadow_Steed
15-02-2011, 20:22
I have also struggled against our southern neighbours.

As most of you already said, Shadow magic is the best weapon. Pit of Shades is the key here. Also try casting Okkams MiIndrazor on your corsairs and watch them slaughter his saurus, hit on 3+ with a re-roll for hatred and then wound on 2+. Awesome!

Ultros
16-02-2011, 14:51
Thanks guys this is all good stuff.

Keeping my eyes peeled for a Hydra on Ebay, but the newer models are fetching an eye watering 30 at close of auctions.

tmarichards
16-02-2011, 19:23
Try oggames.co.uk, or maelstromgames.co.uk

Both do GW products (among other things) at a decent discount.

Failing that, a quick look on Google will probs show up some miniatures from alternative companies. GW is far from the be all and end all of miniature wargaming.

cougar_roger
16-02-2011, 19:37
taking a lvl 4 with shadow and a lvl 2 with metal will put pressure on him in the magic phase that you should be able to get either searing doom or pit off each turn.

Searing doom the cav - wounds on a 2+, no armor save
plague of rust to lower the armor save of the blocks, withering to lower their toughness, and then 40 shots a turn from your units of bowmen.

Their are good combos between metal and shadow.

Take the tome of furion with your levle 2 so that you get a 50/50 shot on what you want and then with doubles you should be able to pick the spell that best suits your opponent.

nzdarkelf
16-02-2011, 21:22
Why are you only allowed to take one unit of Black Guard? Take two. Take a Cauldron of Blood. Use it to give one of your BG regs Killing Blow. Rank up 7 wide, 3 deep (put a character with it). Give the unit the AP banner. With a unitchampion, thats 20 rerollable attacks that strike 1st every round plus your Characters attacks. Buff the unit champion up with Crimson Death. Yes your unit is going to take return damage, but you will win on attrition. If enemy magic attacks are a problem, use the Cauldron to give the BG a 5+ ward save until they get into combat. That can be buffed to 4+ or more by giving either the unit champ, or the character an idea with some level of magic resistance.