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Fubar
14-02-2011, 14:38
If cast on a unit of grave guard /w GW vs high elves in combat it gives them always strike first, Does this cancel out always strike first from the high elves, always strike last from the grave guard or both?

A few possibilities I can see,

1. Asf cancels out Asl and you no longer have either ability so HE goes first VC in initiative Order
2. Asf Cancels Asf from HE, HE goes first from initiative, vc go last due to Asl
3. Asf cancels Asl but as you still have Asl it also cancels out HE Asf meaning you still strike at same time.


If it's 1 then I assume you no longer have Asf as otherwise it would be 3, if this is the case can I recast Vanhels to regive Asf thus making them attack at the same time?


Also last but not least, Vanhels description states if gives them Asf "and" reroll missed hits. I assume this means they get refills to hit in all circumstances as it's separate to the Asf rule?

SteelTitan
14-02-2011, 14:46
ASF from Vanhel's cancels out ASL from great weapons.

so option 1.

rob1992
14-02-2011, 14:53
As SteelTitan said, ASF and ASL on the Grave Guard cancel out, so you'd strike in Initiative order. As High Elves have ASF, they'd go first.

I'm not sure about your second point. I have a feeling there's a restriction on the number of times you can cast Vanhel's on a unit, but I don't have the army book with me at the moment so I can't check. Even so, I wouldn't have thought that recasting it would give the Grave Guard ASF, but I'm not sure what the effect would be.

Your final point is, AFAIK, correct.

Fubar
14-02-2011, 15:01
It can be cast multiple times on same unit but they can only move once.

SteelTitan
14-02-2011, 15:31
I'm not sure about your second point. I have a feeling there's a restriction on the number of times you can cast Vanhel's on a unit, but I don't have the army book with me at the moment so I can't check. Even so, I wouldn't have thought that recasting it would give the Grave Guard ASF, but I'm not sure what the effect would be.

I have never heard that interpretation.

Vanhel's give you ASF and rerolls. Casting it twice on the same unit (disregarding the movement aspect of the spell, im just talking about its CC effects) does not give you ASF and rerolls again...at least not with any effect. Having rerolls twice doesn't give you rerolls twice and having ASF twice also has no benefit.

The way i see; GWs give ASL. If combined with ASF, you're back to just initiative to decide who strikes first. This doesn't mean the ASL and ASF are gone and you then get the ASF again if you recast Vanhel's. IMO, ASL and ASF are still there, the EFFECTS just cancel each other out.

IMO, there is no such thing as ASFx2 effects.


If someone has specific rules to back up either case, that'd be great.

Fubar
14-02-2011, 15:47
I have never heard that interpretation.

Vanhel's give you ASF and rerolls. Casting it twice on the same unit (disregarding the movement aspect of the spell, im just talking about its CC effects) does not give you ASF and rerolls again...at least not with any effect. Having rerolls twice doesn't give you rerolls twice and having ASF twice also has no benefit.

The way i see; GWs give ASL. If combined with ASF, you're back to just initiative to decide who strikes first. This doesn't mean the ASL and ASF are gone and you then get the ASF again if you recast Vanhel's. IMO, ASL and ASF are still there, the EFFECTS just cancel each other out.

IMO, there is no such thing as ASFx2 effects.


If someone has specific rules to back up either case, that'd be great.

But if Asf isn't gone then wouldn't it cancel out Asf from the HE's using my example?

SteelTitan
14-02-2011, 16:04
Because in that case the one ASF given by Vanhel's cancels out both the ASL from the GWs and the ASF from the HEs.

I really don't have any rules to back this up, but i can see huge rule debates during a game when you try to pull off two Vanhel's to cancel out HE's ASF or even to make GG strike first against other opponents.

Fubar
14-02-2011, 16:45
I'm not trying to pull anything off, I'm just wanting to know what can or can't be done, within the limits of the rules.
I ask to see if it's come up before in a tournament and what happened. I currently am playing Woc in tournaments, but I'd like to be prepared of all possible circumstances that could arise.

Lex
15-02-2011, 15:11
ASF is not a cumulative (or quantitative) ability. 80xASF = ASF. Both ASF and ASL are still present on a model when they are cast. The effects when both are present are that you do not benefit from ASF, do not suffer from ASL and strike in I order. Since you no longer benefit from ASF, though it is still there, the HE go first and get rerolls.

Fubar
15-02-2011, 15:29
ASF is not a cumulative (or quantitative) ability. 80xASF = ASF. Both ASF and ASL are still present on a model when they are cast. The effects when both are present are that you do not benefit from ASF, do not suffer from ASL and strike in I order. Since you no longer benefit from ASF, though it is still there, the HE go first and get rerolls.

That certainly seems to be the interpretation that make the most sense, although interpretations do tend to be quite varied among warhammer players depending on the circumstances.

I assume that this is just your interpretation though and hasn't been FAQ'd or written elsewhere that I've missed?

Kalandros
15-02-2011, 18:00
The "cancel out" part is not that both rules are gone, its that their EFFECTS cancel each other out.

So you still have both rules, so adding ASF to your ASF does nothing as rules dont stack unless specified.

Lex
16-02-2011, 00:36
That certainly seems to be the interpretation that make the most sense, although interpretations do tend to be quite varied among warhammer players depending on the circumstances.

I assume that this is just your interpretation though and hasn't been FAQ'd or written elsewhere that I've missed?

Not my interpretation. The rule says, "If a model has both...the two cancel out and neither applies..." No FAQ needed. Both are present but neither applies.

Surgency
16-02-2011, 06:57
However, the rulebook ALSO says that if a model has ASF and is fighting another model with ASF, then you fight at the same time, regardless.

I'd take this to mean that:
first: ASF and ASL cancel each other (note, both rules are still present, they just operate under special circumstances) -> models fight in initiative order
Second: Fighting models both have ASF (whether or not it works doesn't make a difference, they still have it) -> both models now strike at the same time, as they STILL have the ASF rule



Not my interpretation. The rule says, "If a model has both...the two cancel out and neither applies..." No FAQ needed. Both are present but neither applies.

But the model still has the rule. The rule for ASF doesn't say "if the model benefits from ASF" it says "if both have ASF"



Also note, this changes Speed of Asuryan slightly, in that now SM and WL, and any GW hero will strike in I order. Granted, its still faster than most other models, but still....

kottig
16-02-2011, 08:14
are u sure on this??

FestHest
16-02-2011, 08:30
Also note, this changes Speed of Asuryan slightly, in that now SM and WL, and any GW hero will strike in I order. Granted, its still faster than most other models, but still....

Keep HE out of this dispute, we cheat and have our own rules :)

Q. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.” How does this interact with a great weapons
Always Strike Last? (p43)
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For
example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great
weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his
opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.

SteelTitan
16-02-2011, 08:45
@ Surgency: so you're saying that GG with GW with Vanhels strike at the same time?

I understand how you interpret the rule but I don't agree. Why would ASF and ASL cancel each other out but than still allow you to strike at the same time as models that started off with ASF to begin with (and dont have the "penalty" of ASL combined with it)?

Applying your second point while "both cancel each other" doesn't make sense to me. I know, they still HAVE it but you lost its effect. I think your interpretation is too far fetched and based on rules wording too much. No offense.

I mean I play VC so your interpretation would benefit me but i cant justify it to myself.

narrativium
16-02-2011, 12:22
The Grave Guard have Vanhel's Danse Macabre and Great Weapons. They have ASF and ASL; these effects cancel out so they attack in Initiative order.

An opposing unit with ASF and no ASL will attack with ASF as normal.

Surgency
17-02-2011, 03:34
Keep HE out of this dispute, we cheat and have our own rules :)

And they call goblins sneaky gits! :eek:

Guess thats what i get for not following my own advice and double checking the FAQ first


@ Surgency: so you're saying that GG with GW with Vanhels strike at the same time?

I understand how you interpret the rule but I don't agree. Why would ASF and ASL cancel each other out but than still allow you to strike at the same time as models that started off with ASF to begin with (and dont have the "penalty" of ASL combined with it)?

Applying your second point while "both cancel each other" doesn't make sense to me. I know, they still HAVE it but you lost its effect. I think your interpretation is too far fetched and based on rules wording too much. No offense.

I mean I play VC so your interpretation would benefit me but i cant justify it to myself.

Well, its obvious what the answer is... They attack at the same time, AND in Initiative order... 2 sets of attacks for the price of one!! :shifty:

There's 2 problems with applying Init order. First is that the wording for the rules (despite how you feel) tell us 2 contradicting things. It only says "have" not "benefit". Regardless of what else happens, the model still has the rule ASF. Poor wording for sure, but thats the way it is.

The second problem is, what rule takes precedence? ASF says that merely having the rule is enough to make you strike at the same time. ASL says that having that rule makes you fight in initiative order. GW really needs tells us which rule is applied first. If ASL is applied first, then ASF makes you fight at the same time. If ASF is first, then ASL makes you fight in Init order.

Synnister
17-02-2011, 04:25
You cannot stack multiple copies of ASF since it does not say it can stack. Therefore your ASL and ASF cancel out and the HE still have ASF therefore they get to strike first and re-roll misses. You still get the re-roll part of the spell.

Fubar
17-02-2011, 08:50
And they call goblins sneaky gits! :eek:

Guess thats what i get for not following my own advice and double checking the FAQ first



Well, its obvious what the answer is... They attack at the same time, AND in Initiative order... 2 sets of attacks for the price of one!! :shifty:

There's 2 problems with applying Init order. First is that the wording for the rules (despite how you feel) tell us 2 contradicting things. It only says "have" not "benefit". Regardless of what else happens, the model still has the rule ASF. Poor wording for sure, but thats the way it is.

The second problem is, what rule takes precedence? ASF says that merely having the rule is enough to make you strike at the same time. ASL says that having that rule makes you fight in initiative order. GW really needs tells us which rule is applied first. If ASL is applied first, then ASF makes you fight at the same time. If ASF is first, then ASL makes you fight in Init order.

This is the issue and cannot be 100% argued either way, so we wait until GW happen to look at this thread and be bothered to FAQ it, Two hope's of that happening.

Chiungalla
17-02-2011, 09:12
But the model still has the rule. The rule for ASF doesn't say "if the model benefits from ASF" it says "if both have ASF"

And what did you not understand when the rules actually say "ASF isn't applied". This would be applying the ASF rule.


Also note, this changes Speed of Asuryan slightly, in that now SM and WL, and any GW hero will strike in I order. Granted, its still faster than most other models, but still....

No they don't, since they have a beautiful FAQ that gives them there advantage back.

Fubar
17-02-2011, 11:25
And what did you not understand when the rules actually say "ASF isn't applied". This would be applying the ASF rule.

But the points he's trying to make is the Asf vs Asf only stipulation is that both model Have the rule, not if the rule is in effect.

Therefore we must either assume the rule writers screwed up again or it is the intention of for the first rule Asf vs Asf to take precedence over the second rule Asf vs Asl.

In my opinion, if you have Asf and Asl you should loose both rules, and be able to gain it again via VDM or the light magic spell.

SteelTitan
17-02-2011, 11:34
the first rule Asf vs Asf to take precedence over the second rule Asf vs Asl.

Id never let you play it like this unlike you can give me a page reference where it says that "ASF vs ASF > ASF vs ASL" and I don't think I'll be the only one. Assuming that that's the case is just rediculous.


In my opinion, if you have Asf and Asl you should loose both rules, and be able to gain it again via VDM or the light magic spell.

It isn't mentioned anywhere that you lose both rules thus you can't get them again.

Chiungalla
17-02-2011, 11:55
But the points he's trying to make is the Asf vs Asf only stipulation is that both model Have the rule, not if the rule is in effect.

And the rule that both models need the rule is under the asf rule, which is no longer applied for the grave guards due to there great weapons.


Therefore we must either assume the rule writers screwed up again or it is the intention of for the first rule Asf vs Asf to take precedence over the second rule Asf vs Asl.

Any instance where the Grave Guards get any benefit from the ASF rule beyond striking in initiative order is applying that rule, what is prohibited by the very same rule.

luntan
17-02-2011, 18:04
If ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, then they have neither of ASF or ASL and strike in Initiative order. Therefore they can be the target of ASF again to get ASF.

narrativium
17-02-2011, 18:35
If they have ASL and multiple sources of ASF, they have ASL and ASF. The two cancel out. They don't stack.

There are ways to give a model Regeneration from two different sources, but if they're hit by a Flaming Attack they won't get either Regeneration save. Same principle applies.

Surgency
17-02-2011, 22:14
In my opinion, if you have Asf and Asl you should loose both rules, and be able to gain it again via VDM or the light magic spell.

I'll refrain from making my opinion on what the rule should be, and merely talk about the rule itself, and how the rule does work. I always hate to get into RAW discussions, but i think this has turned into one...



Id never let you play it like this unlike you can give me a page reference where it says that "ASF vs ASF > ASF vs ASL" and I don't think I'll be the only one. Assuming that that's the case is just rediculous.


And I'd never let you play that my model doesn't have ASF just because it carries a great weapon until you give me a page reference where it says that you REMOVE the ASF rule from the model. Demanding that be the case is just rediculous.

You seem to be missing the point of the wording of ASF. Nowhere in the BRB does application of one rule REMOVE another rule from a model. It may specifically counteract a rule, but it never removes it. No matter what ASL says, ASF says that the model merely has to HAVE the rule. Not that it has to have the rule in effect.

Noght
18-02-2011, 04:06
Rules are really clear: If model has both ASF and ASL, neither apply, use initiative. Fighting High Elves the Grave Guard are for all practical purposes "effectively" ASL. The cursed High Elves would go first and re-roll.

So I would recommend you use Danse to "charge" them into combat bypassing the charge reactions and just take your lumps for taking Great Weapons. (Not sure why you would take GW when you have Strength 4 and Killing Blow available. Hand weapon combined with Danse gives you the ASF rule, which would then actually cancel out the High Elves ASF/Reroll crapola).

So it would seem casting Danse on a unit of Great Weapon Wights already engaged in combat is a waste of dice vs High Elves.

Noght

Fubar
18-02-2011, 07:19
Id never let you play it like this unlike you can give me a page reference where it says that "ASF vs ASF > ASF vs ASL" and I don't think I'll be the only one. Assuming that that's the case is just rediculous.

I wouldn't try to play it like that! And there isn't a page reference either way.


It isn't mentioned anywhere that you lose both rules thus you can't get them again.

Did I say it was mentioned anyway, it was my opinion of how it should be.


And the rule that both models need the rule is under the asf rule, which is no longer applied for the grave guards due to there great weapons.



Any instance where the Grave Guards get any benefit from the ASF rule beyond striking in initiative order is applying that rule, what is prohibited by the very same rule.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Chiungalla
18-02-2011, 07:35
Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, but it's not right. Sorry.
A rule that does not apply is the same as if the rule wasn't there, everything else is rules lawyering to such a high degree, that even I can not agree with that.

Fubar
18-02-2011, 08:03
Rules are really clear: If model has both ASF and ASL, neither apply, use initiative. Fighting High Elves the Grave Guard are for all practical purposes "effectively" ASL. The cursed High Elves would go first and re-roll.

So I would recommend you use Danse to "charge" them into combat bypassing the charge reactions and just take your lumps for taking Great Weapons. (Not sure why you would take GW when you have Strength 4 and Killing Blow available. Hand weapon combined with Danse gives you the ASF rule, which would then actually cancel out the High Elves ASF/Reroll crapola).

So it would seem casting Danse on a unit of Great Weapon Wights already engaged in combat is a waste of dice vs High Elves.

Noght

The point being made is there is no rule stating you should use that rule as opposed to the Asf vs Asf rule first, have you not been reading this thread?

Due to your last statement I would assume not! Using danse on a unit grants Asf AND rerolls to hit.

Would I be right in thinking that Asf when the vc rulebook came out did not grant rerolls?

Fubar
18-02-2011, 08:09
Yes, but it's not right. Sorry.
A rule that does not apply is the same as if the rule wasn't there, everything else is rules lawyering to such a high degree, that even I can not agree with that.

But if the rule wasn't there then nothing would prevent you from casting danse again and giving them Asf Again, is that what your saying?

Chiungalla
18-02-2011, 08:14
But if the rule wasn't there then nothing would prevent you from casting danse again and giving them Asf Again, is that what your saying?

I actually think this is one of the few circumstances where "not applied" makes a difference to "not there". But I'am not so sure, that I want to make a point for this opinion.

FestHest
18-02-2011, 08:21
ASF must be there in some form, otherwise the ASL from the great weapon would be active again. If they truely cancel each other out they should disapear alltogether and the ASL from the great weapon would not reapear when the spell stopped.

So to speak the ASF is keeping ASL "at bay" and nighter is working. But they are both still there.
I would argue the other way around that they can't get ASL from any other source eighter, because ASL is allready there from the weapon.

SteelTitan
18-02-2011, 09:07
I don't think we'll find the right answer. I understand what Surgency is saying. I said the same thing on page one i think...that having the ability is not the same as having its effects. What happens afterwards once this is established becomes a gray area, at least IMO.

Id just discuss it with the opponent Im playing against and try to find a middle way...if there isn't any, just do what your opponent prefers. It's about enjoying the game together instead of trying to maximise your advantage :) This is probably not the tournement mentality but if we can't enjoy the game, then what?

FestHest
18-02-2011, 10:11
From BRB Faq:
Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

Isn't this the faq we are looking for ?

theunwantedbeing
18-02-2011, 10:13
Isn't this the faq we are looking for ?

Could well be, people are still going to claim its a grey area though.

SteelTitan
18-02-2011, 10:59
Works for me :)

Fubar
18-02-2011, 11:26
From BRB Faq:
Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

Isn't this the faq we are looking for ?

I dont think that was ever in question, the questions are,
do you loose the rule,(Asf vs Asl), or which one does it affect first (Asf vs Asf or Asf vs asl)

theunwantedbeing
18-02-2011, 11:37
I dont think that was ever in question, the questions are,
do you loose the rule,(Asf vs Asl), or which one does it affect first (Asf vs Asf or Asf vs asl)

1. No, you don't lose them.
They cancel out and neither applies
2. The ASF&ASL applies first, as it cancels out.

Noght
18-02-2011, 12:06
The point being made is there is no rule stating you should use that rule as opposed to the Asf vs Asf rule first, have you not been reading this thread?

Due to your last statement I would assume not! Using danse on a unit grants Asf AND rerolls to hit.

Would I be right in thinking that Asf when the vc rulebook came out did not grant rerolls?

No I really have been reading the thread. It seems that you want both the benefit of ASF and Great Weapons. I'm less interested in the gyrations everyone is going through and what actually will happen when you drop dice vs a High Elf unit (or against any unit with a higher initiative).

Your magic isn't affecting the other unit so for a second forget them, you cast Danse on a unit of Great Weapon Grave Guard, so they benefit from both ASF and ASL, according to the rules those benefits cancel and they effectively becom a unit of Init 3, Str 4 (6) Killing Blow Wights. Against any other opponent with a higher Init, they strike last. High Elves will go first and re-roll. Empire Swordsmen go first, State troops simultaneously. Wights go first against Orc Boyz and Saurus. Seems simple to me.

Are you hoping for a differant outcome?
Noght

narrativium
18-02-2011, 12:12
I think he was hoping that if ASF vs ASF cancelled out first, the High Elves (or any other kind of ASF troop) would strike on Initiative and wouldn't get rerolls to hit vs. Grave Guard with ASL still in play. However, since the ASL cancels out the Grave Guard ASF, the Grave Guard ASF can't cancel out the ASF of the High Elves.

Noght
18-02-2011, 12:32
I think he was hoping that if ASF vs ASF cancelled out first, the High Elves (or any other kind of ASF troop) would strike on Initiative and wouldn't get rerolls to hit vs. Grave Guard with ASL still in play. However, since the ASL cancels out the Grave Guard ASF, the Grave Guard ASF can't cancel out the ASF of the High Elves.

Of course he is. Just use the Danse to "charge" your GW Wights so they can't react (shoot or run) and chop em up. I'd equip my killing blow Guard with Hand Weapon/Shield so they could benefit from the ASF portion of Danse but that's just me. To much GW love floating around, not a one size fits all approach.

Noght

Fubar
18-02-2011, 13:16
Of course he is. Just use the Danse to "charge" your GW Wights so they can't react (shoot or run) and chop em up. I'd equip my killing blow Guard with Hand Weapon/Shield so they could benefit from the ASF portion of Danse but that's just me. To much GW love floating around, not a one size fits all approach.

Noght

What I want is a better understanding of the rules, I have no bias on this or any rules, and for your information, you still get a charge reaction as normal versus a vanhels charge.

Noght
18-02-2011, 13:43
What I want is a better understanding of the rules, I have no bias on this or any rules, and for your information, you still get a charge reaction as normal versus a vanhels charge.

Not if you move them 3" away and then Danse them in like my VC opponent alway does :).

Once again...what's to understand, GW Grave Guard will "never" have ASF though they may get rid of ASL with Danse. NOW Danse on Ghouls is just plain nasty.

Noght