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Malorian
14-02-2011, 17:54
So in the new greenskin book we are seeing both the black orcs and black orcs reduced and points and both are now special and thus in direct compitition.

Looking at them you get more wounds per point for the trolls with a regen typically being better than heavy armor, and attackwise I think trolls have the edge too once the units get big enough.

A horde of black orcs can either have 30 str 7 attacks in the first round or 40 str 5, whereas a horde of trolls has 54 str 5 attacks plus stomp. The troll horde obviuosly cost more, but lets see what happens when you even that playing field...

Black orcs max out in effectiveness at 30, and for that cost you could get 10 trolls (and a leg).

Assuming ws3 t3 a 5+ save and parry the black orcs will do 18.5 wounds with 2 choppas and 13.9 with great weapons, whereas the trolls will do 15.4 (this was assuming a frontage of 6). So even at this point they beat out the great weapons, and once you go to the second round (and black orc choppas are str 4) the double choppas only do 12.3.

Keep in mind that the trolls will suffer half as many wounds (for giving up CR), are faster (getting the charge more often and lossing less to shooting) and that if the target unit goes to WS 4 that the trolls do even better.

So is it just me or did trolls just take over as the greenskins best heavy hitters?

CaliforniaGamer
14-02-2011, 18:04
Black orcs will serve more roles: bunker for general providing look out sir, banner for flaming attacks etc, better static CR etc.

I dont see those in competition because most lists will have both.

Trolls still have crappy WS, no static CR to speak of (+1 for rank perhaps..) and will need magic support (reroll to hit spell).

Will be interesting to see equal point value of trolls vs. say skaven slaves both with general's inspiring presence in the combat modeller.

Stymie Jackson
14-02-2011, 18:10
Black Orcs are now 12 points? Retaining their Armed to Da Teef rules and gaining ItP?

They are simply more reliable. They don't need to worry about having a source of leadership and a BSB nearby to avoid stupid, and they totally ignore animosity.

Trolls are certainly more fun, and survive non-dwarf shooting better than the Black Orcs (regen FTW). But the BO are just going to be more reliable, if less sexy. Depends I guess on how much 'chaos' you are willing add to an already wacky army. Having your 'heavy hitter unit' squabbling like Boar Boys, or going stupid like Trolls at the worst possible time is the pro for BO I think.

Unrelated, Tooled-up Big 'Uns for 10 points and BO for 12 points give O&G troops that can go toe to toe with elite infantry for a good cost finally. Seriously, compare them to Longbeards and Hammerers. Orc infantry just got a big boost over-all, and I think a big BO unit will synergize (I love using totally assinine buzz words) best with an infantry heavy army.

The main problem with trolls is the damn babysitting they need, which can cause problems with their nice speed.

Kalandros
14-02-2011, 18:13
Why would you compare them to Longbeards and Hammerers? Those are terrible elites - they are 6th edition elites.

Try Chaos Chosen, Chaos Warriors, etc

Malorian
14-02-2011, 18:19
Black orcs will serve more roles: bunker for general providing look out sir, banner for flaming attacks etc, better static CR etc.

I dont see those in competition because most lists will have both.

Trolls still have crappy WS, no static CR to speak of (+1 for rank perhaps..) and will need magic support (reroll to hit spell).

Will be interesting to see equal point value of trolls vs. say skaven slaves both with general's inspiring presence in the combat modeller.

I already did the numbers above... remember trolls one even in the worst case, so when you have both hitting on a 2+ then they just do better.

In the end though the answer is that both units would do best to stay away from slaves.


The stupidity issue doesn't really matter. The troll unit would be at the center of your army with the bunker behind (just like it would be with the black orc horde) and LD 9 rerolled doesn't exactly fail much, and once in combat it doesn't matter at all.


I do agree though that the best lists (at bigger point levels) will have both.

Goldenwolf
14-02-2011, 19:20
Mal,

So are you suggesting 24 trolls for the horde?

I am not saying you are wrong, but at 2500 points which unit would you prefer?
I usually play at 2500 points, and fitting a 700+ point troll unit into my army will be hard if I keep it hordalishish :)

Malorian
14-02-2011, 19:31
Mal,

So are you suggesting 24 trolls for the horde?

I am not saying you are wrong, but at 2500 points which unit would you prefer?
I usually play at 2500 points, and fitting a 700+ point troll unit into my army will be hard if I keep it hordalishish :)

A unit of 24 would be VERY good however you could probably keep it at 18 and be fine.

Then again, bigger is better ;) And in a tournament setting 24 trolls would be a ton of point denial...


I'm just saying that once you go big the trolls now beat out the black orcs. Something people should be planning for.

Ronin[XiC]
14-02-2011, 20:29
After losing half of your trolls against flaming attacks in one round will make you think twice.

Morkash
14-02-2011, 20:32
In a horde you could even take a full load of vomit into consideration. Given that 3 rank in a horde are able to do so, you could easily mess up heavy armoured targets like Chaos Warriors!
A flanking unit of trolls buffed with sneaky stabbin' should do awesome as well. Shame that I do not own any trolls, so I'll go with Black Orcs once more. :)

Malorian
14-02-2011, 20:35
;5315051']After losing half of your trolls against flaming attacks in one round will make you think twice.

Assuming a unit of 18, if I lost 9 trolls in one round I could have just the same lost 27 black orcs... in either case that unit is in trouble...


Black orcs pay 12 points per wound.

Trolls pay 11.7.

I don't know about you but I see a lot more str 4+ attacks that would effect the 5+ armor of the black orcs other than flaming attacks that would effect the trolls 4+ regen.


Math is with the trolls.

Now if only they weren't so damned expensive moneywise...


I think that many people will go with black orcs over trolls just like they go for minotaurs over razorgors: money and look over tactical use.

sssk
14-02-2011, 20:38
well I'm currently planning for either 1 unit of 9 trolls or (if I get my act together with finding cheap river troll bodies and legs) 2 units of 6, because I've seen just what treekin can do first hand, and I can get twice as many trolls as I can treekin for the same points.

Trolls will be my heavy hitters (with the occasional pump wagon or chariot perhaps...maybe a few squigs) as I find them to just be disturbingly good in any given situation.

By that I mean they can hold most charges (with general and BSB nearby) long enough to get a big mass of green bodies in the flank. They can be devastating as a flank charger. They can pose enough of a threat to prevent a huge array of units from advancing into charge range.

Obviously black orcs have advantages in having characters in them, and magic banners, and ranks etc, but for me it has to be the trolls.

Malorian
14-02-2011, 20:43
Obviously black orcs have advantages in having characters in them, and magic banners, and ranks etc, but for me it has to be the trolls.

I think that advantage may be stolen from them by the now cheaper biguns.

Big un orcs with 2 hand weapons are 3 points cheaper a model, can also have a banner and are also a great place for characters at the loss of the option of a great weapon, HA rather than LA, and ItP, however they count for your core requirement.

sssk
14-02-2011, 21:04
Fair point.

I guess in that case it just comes down to personal preference.

...Nowthen, on the subject of units for hitting stuff with, where did I put those 40 wolf riders (not kidding).....

russellmoo
14-02-2011, 21:46
Mal- you forgot one more tiny advantage the troll horde would have- 6 x 40mm = 240, vs. 10 x 25mm = 250mm. Shockingly it is actually easier to fit (by 10mm) a troll horde on the board vs. a blorc horde-

As a side note do we know if regular trolls have a 4+ regen, or is that only reserved for river trolls (which I think are still a rare)? As this could change the math slightly-

However, the blorcs can still take a magic standard and this might also push players towards them as a horde-

Still my next addition will be 2 boxes of river trolls-

Malorian
14-02-2011, 22:06
As a side note do we know if regular trolls have a 4+ regen, or is that only reserved for river trolls (which I think are still a rare)? As this could change the math slightly

I haven't heard anything about that.

decker_cky
14-02-2011, 22:25
Initiative 2 vs 1 for certain spells is relevant. WS4 is relevant. Stupidity is relevant. Command is relevant (swift reforms being the big one). Magic banners too (black orcs let you have a flaming banner, which is more important than giving your opponents something to point their flaming banner unit at).

Malorian
14-02-2011, 22:31
Initiative 2 vs 1 for certain spells is relevant.

True.


WS4 is relevant.

False. As shown above even when fighting a foe with WS3 the trolls are better in the long run.


Stupidity is relevant.

Hardly. Ld 9 rerolled to ignore something that only effects you oult of combat isn't that big of a deal.


Command is relevant (swift reforms being the big one).

Apart from the hated Watchtower Blitz, a unit in the center of your formation shouldn't need to swift reform.


Magic banners too (black orcs let you have a flaming banner, which is more important than giving your opponents something to point their flaming banner unit at).

As stated the big uns can now take that flaming banner and thanks to everyone giving their characters the dragon helm you really don't see that flaming banner as often as you might think, and even when it is there it isn't a big deal.

Like I said above, trolls get mroe wounds per point then BOs, and their regen is modified much less than the black orc heavy armor.

Kevlar
15-02-2011, 01:01
Yep, this thread is making me think Warp fire throwers will only improve in value against the new O&G. Good bye Poison wind mortar and ratling gun.

Ghremdal
15-02-2011, 01:16
You should take into account that WS 4 troops will do more against Trolls then against BO's. There the BO's do slightly better. Additionally in the Dawn Attack scenario, you cannot guarantee that Trolls will end up near the general and the BSB.

I was taking a unit of 6 trolls before the new AB rumors leaked out, and will continue to do so in the future. Will probably even add more when I get the models. They make a great central holding unit.

However, I also plan taking a unit of Black Orcs to have something reliable on the flank.

I think Trolls and BO's now are fairly even, in that neither is obviously much better then the other. Perhaps its leaning a bit towards the Trolls, but I favor BO's for fluff reason. A Orc and Goblin army should have some Orcs in it. Shame that it seems regular Orc Boyz are became worse.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 01:36
You should take into account that WS 4 troops will do more against Trolls then against BO's. There the BO's do slightly better. Additionally in the Dawn Attack scenario, you cannot guarantee that Trolls will end up near the general and the BSB.

WS4 and str 3 would be your best situation. In that cast a single attack would do 0.11 wounds to a troll and 0.11 wounds to a black orc... as soon as the strength goes up the troll wins.


The only time it would matter in dawn attack is when the trolls where on one flank and the general was on the opposite on (because if either is in the center then they could be side by side).

The chances of this is 1/18.

So you are correct that this is a worry, but not a big one.

I'll also conceed that black orcs are better at fighting in buildings than trolls.

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-02-2011, 02:44
Trolls will also lose their S.C.R easier than Orcs, as their will be less bodies per a rank (although same number of wounds) as opposed to Orcs. Just sayin.

russellmoo
15-02-2011, 02:52
Found it again in the rumor thread- it appears that someone merely asked IF regular trolls had a 5+ not stating that they did- I just needed to read more carefully, but then again the rumor thread is so long-

So to clarify- trolls stats stay the same-

However, river trolls are a rare choice

Chris_
15-02-2011, 03:02
A unit of 18 trolls in horde would be about the same as 50 BO with FC, pointswise I mean.

A horde formation for both would mean that all trolls would get to fight from the get-go and 30 BO. That means the BO can take 20 wounds before they start loosing attacks, trolls start loosing attacks after 3 wounds. 20 wounds would take away 18 attacks for the trolls and 0 for BO. Just something to think about.

decker_cky
15-02-2011, 03:29
If talking about a troll heavy army with 3-4 big blocks of trolls, that's one thing. A single block, even a huge block of 18 or 24 trolls, becomes easier to deal with because every single army should include enough flaming attacks to deal with a single major regenerating threat. Dragonhelm protects one model and does nothing against magic weapons, so a combat hero with a magic weapon in a unit with the flaming is what I'm talking about here. Aside from dwarfs (they have flaming cannons) and daemons, that flaming banner will be somewhere in any semi-competitive list.

Heck....who cares about the fact that big uns can take it. Black orcs let you have the banner of discipline too, and they hide where your flaming banner is during deployment. Small things seemingly, but they add up.

Another thing is the extra banner for death and glory, which shouldn't be underestimated.

I'm not saying trolls are worse than black orcs. Trolls are great and all the trolls in the orc list are bargain basement cheap, but that doesn't mean black orcs don't have lots of reasons to be there.

Also, while not often used, combat reform lets you compensate for being out-deployed, or lets you get your flaming banner where it needs to be.

CaliforniaGamer
15-02-2011, 15:07
so a combat hero with a magic weapon in a unit with the flaming is what I'm talking about here.

except magic weapons cant be flaming in 8th ed unless they begin with both rule sets.

isanti13
15-02-2011, 15:23
Get out of my head Mal!

I'm planning on getting 18 trolls and a unit of 40 savage orc big uns for my main two hitty units. For the most part, you really only have to worry about the one enemy unit that has the flaming banner, and if you know what that one is, you should be easily be able to block it up or send another unit at them instead of the trolls.

One of the main reasons I'm really looking forward to the troll unit is the massive amount of chaos warrior players there are running around at my store. Chaos Warrior meet Troll vomit :D

isanti13
15-02-2011, 15:25
Trolls will also lose their S.C.R easier than Orcs, as their will be less bodies per a rank (although same number of wounds) as opposed to Orcs. Just sayin.

True, but static combat plays a much, much smaller part in the combats where there are 10+ wounds per side being caused.

I had a skaven vs undead game last week and I think the total amount of models killed in that one combat (on both sides) was over 30.

Stymie Jackson
15-02-2011, 15:50
Not sure you guys are taking point costs into effect. All I've read indicates base trolls (non-regen) will be 35 points a model. Regen will take that to 45-50 points.

In other words, regen trolls will cost something in the area of 4x that of Black Orcs per model.

A horde of regen trolls will run something like 800 points (18x45).

isanti13
15-02-2011, 15:55
All trolls have regen. What the heck are you talking about with 45-50 point "Regen" trolls. It's a bit early in the day to be hitting the sauce man.

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 16:02
Hardly. Ld 9 rerolled to ignore something that only effects you oult of combat isn't that big of a deal.

As long as your general and your bsb survive.
But given the 24 trolls, I would know that the trolls aren't my target, but the general is. Take out the general and 24 trolls don't do anything anymore.

And while you have to include the points of general and bsb to the trolls, because they need them to be effective after all, you don't have to do the same for the black orcs.

decker_cky
15-02-2011, 16:39
except magic weapons cant be flaming in 8th ed unless they begin with both rule sets.

That's exactly my point - the dragonhelm should rarely ever be a threat. I was addressing malorian saying flaming banners are a risk.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 17:02
As long as your general and your bsb survive.
But given the 24 trolls, I would know that the trolls aren't my target, but the general is. Take out the general and 24 trolls don't do anything anymore.

And while you have to include the points of general and bsb to the trolls, because they need them to be effective after all, you don't have to do the same for the black orcs.

Black orcs or trolls (or anything else for that matter) you are still going to have a general and BSB, and they are still going to be a target.

And relly even if the general dies in the later part of the game the trolls would have already done their job or are stuck in combat anyway.

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 17:13
And relly even if the general dies in the later part of the game the trolls would have already done their job or are stuck in combat anyway.

There is no part of the game where you could afford the trolls to be stupid, if they are 1/3 of your army. Even if it's turn 5 or 6 when you start to get problems with there stupidity (either because your general is dead or out of range) you will miss them.

And thats the major disadvantage that makes the trolls, at least in such a big unit, not better then black orcs. They may be worse in close combat by the pure numbers, but they are one of the most reliable elements in the entire army.

I actually don't say the trolls are worse then black orcs either. Both have there advantages.

I guess I will most likely run a small (something around 18) unit of black orcs and a unit of 6 trolls in the new edition. This will I will have both and enough points left for goblins, big uns, chariots, stonethrower, doom diver...

Malorian
15-02-2011, 17:18
I guess I will most likely run a small (something around 18) unit of black orcs and a unit of 6 trolls in the new edition. This will I will have both and enough points left for goblins, big uns, chariots, stonethrower, doom diver...

I was thinking more along the lines of 40 black orcs AND 18 trolls ;)


Remember, in 8th you win by killing and not by combat res. The biggest unit that kills the most wins the day.

If you doubt this just look up my battle reports (MrMalorian on youtube) and see how 40 black orcs can cut your way to an easy victory game after game. And if 40 black orcs can do that, and trolls now pack a bigger punch per point, it only stands to reason that a troll horde would do even better.

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 17:23
I was thinking more along the lines of 40 black orcs AND 18 trolls ;)

Thats more then 1.100 points. In decent sized battles this will leave you with minimum core and only few points for heroes.

I was talking more about a list for 2.000 or 2.500 points.
And I really like to have more in my army then 3 big blocks and 2 characters.

russellmoo
15-02-2011, 18:13
I think Mal tends to play 3000pts with his O&G- so at that points level a blorc horde and a troll horde should work fine as there is plenty of room for two big blocks of gobbos, and a block of boyz-

This also tends to be the way of 8th- I personally tend to field only 3-4 main blocks, and at 2500 most of the armies I've seen tend to run 3, or 4 big blocks plus some supporting units-

I watched a game yesterday DoC vs WoC and both players only had 3 main blocks- and it was a 3000pt game-

This is just the direction 8th is headed- so in short- Mal's 2 hordes should be very devastating-

Stymie Jackson
15-02-2011, 18:48
All trolls have regen. What the heck are you talking about with 45-50 point "Regen" trolls. It's a bit early in the day to be hitting the sauce man.

Sorry, the Stone and River trolls will be 45-50 points. And it's never too early to be hitting the sauce.

So we're talking 630 points for 18 base trolls. That gets the 50 BO horde for the same points.

Also, if trolls stay as rare...you won't fit that troll horde in a 2500 point game btw, let alone any other rare choices.

Asymmetric
15-02-2011, 18:50
Pfft.

If your going to run a large block of Black orcs at 3k then your going to do it with there one true ace up there sleaves

Grimgor Ironhide + Flaming banner

WS5, hatred, flaming attacks, S7 and Grimgor will carve a bloody path into a lot of the toughest units in the current metagame.

- Lore of Life boosted Temple Guard.

- Lore of Life boosted High Elves elites.

- Lore of life boosted large bret lances.

- Multi-Hellpits.

- Multi-Hydras.

- Horde regen grave guard.

- Gut magic boosted horde ogres.

- Opposing horde trolls.

- Grimgor is more than a match for 95% of the characters out there in challenges.

These are the sort of "hard as nails" units I can see a mere troll horde struggling with.

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 18:54
Also, if trolls stay as rare...you won't fit that troll horde in a 2500 point game btw, let alone any other rare choices.

Regular trolls are a special choice, which we no for sure by now.
River and stone trolls stay rare. And we also know the point costs for all types of trolls.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 18:56
Also, if trolls stay as rare...you won't fit that troll horde in a 2500 point game btw, let alone any other rare choices.

Common trolls Are special.



Pfft.

Grimgor Ironhide + Flaming banner

Grimgor changes things a lot. As soon as you add him and the black orcs get hatred they will simply crush anything in the first round.

So yes, if you plan to take Grimgor, then black orcs are better. But then again I would then be taken both ;)

Gork or Possibly Mork
15-02-2011, 19:12
I will probably stick to my Black Orcs since i have the models. In bigger games I guess i could use an Ogre horde to proxy. Im not gonna go buy all those models $:eek: and just to have them sitting in a cabinet collecting dust next edition.

Honestly i see a little more flexibility with BO though.

Asymmetric
15-02-2011, 19:22
Grimgor changes things a lot. As soon as you add him and the black orcs get hatred they will simply crush anything in the first round.

So yes, if you plan to take Grimgor, then black orcs are better. But then again I would then be taken both ;)

Black Orcs by themselves just seem a rather "meh" choice in general. Not bad by any means, simply average, they just don't do anything that amazingly well for there points. For me, if your going to make the decesion to run a large unit of black orcs, you might as well spend the points to make it truly scary.

With Grimgor on the other hand they can reliably cause utter mayhem to whatever they come into contact with. They fill a niche in the orc army book that few other things can fill - smashing seven shades of crap out of enemy's toughest units. And at 3k points levels you can expect to be running into them.

He will of course make a dent into your lord level allowance which at certain point lvls can hinder your magic phase significantly.

stashman
15-02-2011, 19:24
If Grimgor has more Initiative than opponent, then he can reroll every turn!

Stymie Jackson
15-02-2011, 19:26
Common trolls Are special.

Ah, that is a massive change that makes Troll large units possible finally without needing to go over 3k points!

Gonna need more burning in my armies I think...

Malorian
15-02-2011, 19:32
Black Orcs by themselves just seem a rather "meh" choice in general.

In 8ths great weapons are king, and in the current book they are pretty much the greenskins only unit that has hordestar potential.

I run a horde of 40 black orcs often and only once added Grimgor. He really is overkill.

Pretty much every time I take the black orc horde they just run through my opponent like he is nothing.

(Which is why I was interested to see that trolls were now better point for point.)

Asymmetric
15-02-2011, 19:47
He really is overkill.


Blasphemy!

He serves his purpose: To kill enemy deathstars.

I'm just not confident that a horde of black orcs can reliably break common enemy points denial blobs thats no doubt will be protecting that lvl 4 magic casting beast, be it a high elf archmage, a slann, a skaven warlock on a bell, etc.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 21:00
Blasphemy!

He serves his purpose: To kill enemy deathstars.

I'm just not confident that a horde of black orcs can reliably break common enemy points denial blobs thats no doubt will be protecting that lvl 4 magic casting beast, be it a high elf archmage, a slann, a skaven warlock on a bell, etc.

Common enemy point denial units are typically WS3, T3, and left with only a parry to save them from the high strength. With that in mind, a horde of black orcs will kill almost 14 of them a player turn. Most don't last long at that rate, and the super big ones won't mind a few extra kills from Grimgor.

I would rather put the points into a character killer to hunt the general or a massive unit of goblins to take steadfast away.


You are correct though that if you are planning to take on other deathstars that he is a good take.

Tregar
15-02-2011, 21:05
I had 4 basic Trolls take down 19 Black Orcs in 2 rounds of combat on Sunday, so I definitely vote for Trolls. Before the Black Orcs' free D6" Waaaagh! move would maybe have swung it for me, but no longer.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 21:06
Before the Black Orcs' free D6" Waaaagh! move would maybe have swung it for me, but no longer.

Combined with the Waaagh banner they could pull off a 28 inch charge!

Ronin[XiC]
15-02-2011, 21:12
Common enemy point denial units are typically WS3, T3, and left with only a parry to save them from the high strength. With that in mind, a horde of black orcs will kill almost 14 of them a player turn. Most don't last long at that rate, and the super big ones won't mind a few extra kills from Grimgor.

I would rather put the points into a character killer to hunt the general or a massive unit of goblins to take steadfast away.


You are correct though that if you are planning to take on other deathstars that he is a good take.

He was talking about deathstars like chosen or Graveguards.

Grimgorks pushes the mediocre 15 hits to 22.5

Malorian
15-02-2011, 21:15
;5318000']He was talking about deathstars like chosen or Graveguards.

Grimgorks pushes the mediocre 15 hits to 22.5

He was talking about both.


I think the best hordestars will be above grimgor's head since he doesn't allow any other characters in the unit.

The bsb with the banner to shut down magic items will be key in some cases.

(spectrum lord what?)

decker_cky
15-02-2011, 21:17
You'd suport Grimgor with goblins to protect you from cheap points denial units. It's the actual deathstars he fights.

CaliforniaGamer
15-02-2011, 21:22
too bad Grimgor can never get flaming attacks then. He has a magic weapon loadout.

read the brb rules on flaming.

decker_cky
15-02-2011, 21:49
That's actually the point. You don't ever want your unit to have all flaming attacks, so you put a character with a magic weapon in a unit with the flaming banner. That prepares you for both regenerate, and ward saves against flaming attacks.

Tregar
15-02-2011, 21:51
Combined with the Waaagh banner they could pull off a 28 inch charge!

I thought you didn't want people moaning about nerfs in the new book ;)

CaliforniaGamer
15-02-2011, 21:54
That's actually the point. You don't ever want your unit to have all flaming attacks, so you put a character with a magic weapon in a unit with the flaming banner. That prepares you for both regenerate, and ward saves against flaming attacks.

ah gah now I see. Like vs. a Dragon prince unit...gotcha.

Asymmetric
15-02-2011, 21:56
Common enemy point denial units are typically WS3, T3, and left with only a parry to save them from the high strength. With that in mind, a horde of black orcs will kill almost 14 of them a player turn. Most don't last long at that rate, and the super big ones won't mind a few extra kills from Grimgor.


I'm refering to the "unkillable" style of point denial units.

30 pheonix guard with telcis, 30 temple guard with slann, grave guard with regen and vampire lord, etc.


You'd suport Grimgor with goblins to protect you from cheap points denial units. It's the actual deathstars he fights.

Indeed.

Grimgor+black orcs is a missile, you throw him straight at the enemys bunker for there lvl4 magic lord.


too bad Grimgor can never get flaming attacks then. He has a magic weapon loadout.

read the brb rules on flaming.

No one claimed he could.

The rest of the unit gets S7 flaming attacks with hatred, thats more than enough to cleave through hellpits, hydras, etc.

Grimgor doesn't get nor want it, in case he runs into dragon princes/dragonhelm users, etc.

Malorian
15-02-2011, 22:14
I thought you didn't want people moaning about nerfs in the new book ;)

I'm all about the overall picture ;)

Ronin[XiC]
16-02-2011, 07:18
The rest of the unit gets S7 flaming attacks with hatred, thats more than enough to cleave through hellpits, hydras, etc.


Or anything else ^^ 30 Ws5 hatred S7 is enough!

Chiungalla
16-02-2011, 08:33
But always remember that you only get those 30 attacks, if your opponents unit is also 25mm base, and also at least 8 wide.

Against anything 5 wide on 20mm bases, for example, you will "only" get 18 attacks.

Against Monsters, it's most likely "only" 12.

antihelten
16-02-2011, 18:54
Trolls will also lose their S.C.R easier than Orcs, as their will be less bodies per a rank (although same number of wounds) as opposed to Orcs. Just sayin.

Actually this isn't entirely true. assuming a unit of 40 black orcs and 18 trolls both in horde formation, the orcs need to take 6 casualties to lose their first rank bonus and 10 for the next, while the trolls need to lose 4 and 6 models.

This means that in the best case scenario for the orcs (enemies with WS4 and S3), the enemy needs an average of 54 and 90 attacks for the first and second rank bonus against the orcs, and 108 and 162 attacks against the trolls. Even if the enemy has flaming attacks they still need 54 and 81 attacks for the trolls first and second rank bonus.

Of course at equal points you would have 50 black orcs and would need to lose 16 before you lose rank bonus (144 attacks), but the trolls will have an easier time getting the charge with M6 and a slightly smaller frontage, so...

Djekar
18-02-2011, 11:00
Where do Squigs fit into your analysis? They cost 2/3 of a black orc and have S5 all the time. They pay for it by being less resilient, but if the only factor is hitting power, it seems that the 45 squigs you can get for the proposed 30 black orcs that always pump out 18.5 wounds (on the "paper doll") would be the best.