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rb.uhs
18-02-2011, 02:30
Simple question, hopefully a simple answer.

A character has both the Helm of Discord and the Tress of Isoulde.
Helm: "The wearer counts his armour save as being one point higher than normal. In addition, at the start of each close combat phase, choose an enemy character in base contact with the bearer or his unit. That character must immediately take a Leadership test. If the test is failed, the character succumbs to the helm's sibilant whispers of malice and jealousy. In this Close Combat phase, the victim cannot make attacks and is hit automatically."

Tress(one use only): "Nominate one enemy model at the beginning of any close combat phase. The bearer hits that model on a 2+ for that Close Combat round, regardless of other modifiers."

The planned set up is for a character hunting lord on pegasus. Obviously I do not to use the Tress if the enemy character is affected by the Helm. So..

Which item goes first? Does the owning player choose? Is there a set order?

Glen_Savet
18-02-2011, 02:32
Judging from other instances of timing issues, the player whos turn it is has the deciding vote.

T10
18-02-2011, 07:49
You are allowed to use the item at the start of the close combat phase, and if there is a conflict in sequencing the players whose turn it is decides the order. However, there's nothing to say that the you have to commit to a choice of whether or not to use the item before that sequencing is determined.

In other words, I can't see that the current player is empowered to pick an enemy's optional ability and force him to "use it or lose it".

There is nothing to say the action order must be planned out in full before they are executed. That would also be a system prone to failure, e.g.: Action 1 may invalidate action 2 by removing the target model!

Some actions must be resolved, some are conditional (a player wanting to use a one-use item certainly counts as a condition!) and conditions may very well change as the actions are resolved. It seems more effective to run through the list of available actions and pick one to resolve, then proceed run through the list and pick another. This way you avoid putting actions into the "queue" that cannot be properly resolved. Sooner or later you'll run out of actions to resolve and you can proceed with the rest of the game turn.

-T10

FestHest
18-02-2011, 09:07
So to answer your question. You can choose when(and if) to use eighter item.

The "player whose turn it is chooses" is mostly used when there is a conflict between one or more items from both sides.

Haravikk
18-02-2011, 13:11
I would have said that the 2+ to hit wouldn't override hitting automatically anyway, as hitting automatically surely bypasses the to-hit roll in the first place?

FestHest
18-02-2011, 14:10
I think the reason for the question is that the Tress (2+ to hit) is one use only, so he wanted to see if the ledership was passed before he would choose to use that item.

AM1640
18-02-2011, 17:48
I would agree that rb.uhs is attempting to use the Tress against some formidable foe and wants to find out if he needs to use the Tress. I would say he can't have his cake and eat it too. The use of both items is decided at the start of the combat phase. The owner (rb.uhs) must decide if he wants to use the Tress since The Helm of Discord is automatically active. But once the player has decided to force his opponent to make a leadership roll (for the Helm of Discord) it is no longer the start of the close combat phase and the player can't decide to then also use the Tress once he knows that his opponent has passed the leadership test. If you have doubts as to your opponent failing the test then use the Tress at the start of the phase but you can't wait to see if it is advantageous to then decide to use the Tress.
Similar start of phase/turn items such as Potion of Strength can't be put back in the bottle if you use them and then your opponent does something that renders the item useless (such as fleeing or avoiding combat).

FestHest
18-02-2011, 18:42
I have to disagree.
The helm is used at the beginning of combat, so is the Tress.
If I choose to use the Helm first, then the character must immediately take a Leadership test. Then I choose to use the Tress.

The example with the potion is not the same situation.

AM1640
18-02-2011, 20:41
I guess I just interpret it differently. Is performng an action (taking a leadership test) an act in the combat phase? If so how does one perform an action in a phase and then go back to the start of the phase which would mean before any actions are taken?
Or are you interpreting the items as acting in a "start of close combat phase" limbo where items can take affect, dice can be rolled, and plans made prior to actually entering the phase.
I guess I would play it as a less forgiving conflict of items in which a choice must be made between which item I choose to use and not try and activet both. Perhaps I am trying to work to much fluff into my interpretation of the situation. I don't think is is very heroic to find out if the effect of the helm works or not and then if it doesn't out comes the tress.
Is there a situation where you could have several items (from one player )testing at the start of a phase/turn and each one is only used if the one before it fails?

FestHest
18-02-2011, 21:27
An example from the faq:


Q. If Remains in Play spells that cause damage at the start of all
Magic phases are in play and a High Elf player wishes to use the
Vortex Shard, which occurs first? The damage spells or the Vortex
Shard? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

If you can use the Shard before Remains in Play spells it will end the Magic Phase, thus it will suddenly be the end of the magic phase without the remain in play spells ever comming into effect, even thoug they also is "at the beginning of the magic phase".

This is out of a rules perspective.
As to the OP, I think it is a bit cheesy, but totally legal combo.

T10
19-02-2011, 10:58
I have to disagree.
The helm is used at the beginning of combat, so is the Tress.
If I choose to use the Helm first, then the character must immediately take a Leadership test. Then I choose to use the Tress.

The example with the potion is not the same situation.

But if it is your opponent's turn, then he gets to chose which item takes effect first which brings up the debate on whether or not your opponent can force you to "use it or lose it"...

-S

FestHest
19-02-2011, 11:13
But if it is your opponent's turn, then he gets to chose which item takes effect first which brings up the debate on whether or not your opponent can force you to "use it or lose it"...

-S

This is true, so in your opponents turn you can be forced to use the Tress before you use the Helmet. But only if you desides to use the Tress.

Other Player:"My Über Lord of Ultimate Power charges!!"
Bret player: "I want to use my Helmet to make your Über Lord of Ultimate Power take a Ledership test. It is used at the Start of Combat."
Other Player: "Thats ok with me." *makes a LD roll and passes*
Bret player: "I see you passed the roll so now I want to use my Tress to hit him on 2+."
Other player:".... cheese"

In my oppinion this is wrong, the Bret player can't opt to use the Tress after he have seen the outcome of the Helmet, because its the other players turn and he should have the opportunity to choose which item is used first. The Bret player could tell the other player that he have the Tress and ask if he may or may not use it after the Helmet. Probably the other player would tell him No he must use it first or not use it in this combat phase.

rb.uhs
22-02-2011, 04:04
As to the OP, I think it is a bit cheesy, but totally legal combo.
It's not cheesy, it's a smart combination of effective items!

I'm honestly still in two minds about how they will work. My plan was Tress + Discord + Virtue of Confidence. Hopefully a very killy challenger. The only problem with this though is that challenges are declared after 'use at start of combat phase' items are used. They can always reject the challenge and waste the effects of the item/s. That's a whole other story though.

My take is this, which may or may not be wrong.
It's the Bretonnian turn. They choose none, one or both items to use and in any order.
It's the opponents turn. If they are aware of one or both items, they should ask/remind the Bret player that they can choose to use thems that combat phase. If they are not aware of the item/s (closed lists, they have not been used in combat yet etc.) then it's up to the Bretonnian player to reveal the items or not use them. When it comes to the order in the opponents phase, I cannot be certain as I don't know the correct way to do it. I would assume the opponent chooses if they are aware of both.

Again, I may or may not be wrong.