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RandomThoughts
19-02-2011, 17:15
The new codex is coming up (eventually), and I'd like to collect a few things I and others believe should be in it.

- Wraithcreatures with Wraith Sight immune to poison weapons and other weapons that kill on a fixed X+ roll
Reason: Fluss clearly describes them as non-living models

- Witchblades always count as S9
Reason: Ork Nobs

- Shining Spear weapons count as two handed (+2 Strength) and ignore cover in assaults (double Strength +2).
Reason: Shining Spears are generally considered underpowered

- Shadow Weaver gets the same rules as the Night Weaver (i.e. Large Blast, Rending, unit moves as if in Dangerous terrain next turn)
Reason: Underpowered; same weapon needs same rules.

- Vibro Cannon should have similar rules as Shadow Weavers, simulating the effects of the Earthquake they create.
Reason: underpowered, effect fits fluff

- Vyper Jetbikes should count as Eldar Jetbikes, giving them an additional 6" move in the assault phase.
Reason: underpowered, effect fits fluff

Other suggestions? Thoughts? Rebuttals?

Hendarion
19-02-2011, 17:50
Vyper Jetbikes count as Jetbikes? You know that means it can not stay to be a vehicle and needs to change to wounds and toughness. What values you expect it to get then?

Sarevok
19-02-2011, 17:54
- Witchblades always count as S9
Reason: Ork Nobs


:eyebrows:
So Eldar Warlocks should be beating up Ork Nobz in close combat?

Are nobz really so hard for Eldar to deal with? And if so, is it really the Warlocks that should be buffed to counter them?

Slashattack
19-02-2011, 18:09
The return of the crystal targeting matrix would be nice, or some rules for Eldar vehicles so that they can jump back and forth like tau battlesuits can. Plus couldn't Eldar vehicles do that in 2nd edition before Tau were even invented?

Hendarion
19-02-2011, 18:11
Eldar could do that in 2nd edition, but ALL units could chose to go into overwatch-mode and shoot during the enemy's turn, which was basically the death for Eldar pop-up-attacks anyway.
Shadow Spectres and Jetbikes still are able to do that manoeuvre though.

Slashattack
19-02-2011, 18:18
True those two units can still pop out, then go back behind cover. However the Shadow Spectres are over 30pts each, have 12" range guns and a 4+ save, so they'll barely get to make one attack before the enemy is about to open up on them. Guardian Jetbikes are good however I feel that they do not have enough offensive power to really make it worthwhile going up that close to the enemy, for the amount of damage they will cause.

Warp Spiders though, are the bee's knee's.

althathir
19-02-2011, 18:37
The new codex is coming up (eventually), and I'd like to collect a few things I and others believe should be in it.

- Witchblades always count as S9
Reason: Ork Nobs

1) Nobz should beat us in close combat and having str 9 would also insta kill a lot of indepdent characters, what we should have is a better star cannon style option to counter fnp.

- Shining Spear weapons count as two handed (+2 Strength) and ignore cover in assaults (double Strength +2).
Reason: Shining Spears are generally considered underpowered

grenades would be nice, strength wise it isn't clear what your saying do you mean double str plus 2 so str 8 on the charge? I think an extra attack base representing the reach advantage would be nice but honestly I wouldn't mind if they were dropped never really made much sense to me.

- Shadow Weaver gets the same rules as the Night Weaver (i.e. Large Blast, Rending, unit moves as if in Dangerous terrain next turn)
Reason: Underpowered; same weapon needs same rules.

Reasonable, but I would stick with a small blast template, 3 large blast rending templates would be OP.

- Vibro Cannon should have similar rules as Shadow Weavers, simulating the effects of the Earthquake they create.
Reason: underpowered, effect fits fluff

I think they should keep these different if the rules are similiar there isn't much of a point in having both, also the earthquake isn't a prolonged event compared to a unit having to move through the monofilament wire imo.

-Vyper Jetbikes should count as Eldar Jetbikes, giving them an additional 6" move in the assault phase.
Reason: underpowered, effect fits fluff

Like how crystal targeting matrix used to work or do you want them to have a t and w values (i can see benefits either way)? I would prefer a points decrease, hopefully the hornet is in the next CWE codex.

Other suggestions? Thoughts? Rebuttals?

My main hope is that they fix hawks, i've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make them better, my newest ideal is to give the exarch an ability that makes them a scoring unit (they would still be fast attack, and you would still need two troop choices) because it fits with their current abilities.

Kjell
19-02-2011, 18:40
The Slicing Orbs of Zandros.

Raibaru
19-02-2011, 18:50
Point reductions across the board.
BS 4 on all guardian piloted vehicles/bikes.
Wraithcannons changed to 18".
Slow and Purposeful rule changed to allow shooting ranged weapons in close combat.
Assaulting out of a vehicle of some kind. Either a new transport, or an expensive upgrade.
Give Autarchs a mandatory wargear option that does X but also makes that corresponding aspect a troop choice. X can be whatever.
Give Phoenix Lords (and Drazhar) a 4+ invuln.
Some farseer powers changed to be more army wide so you don't need to babysit units like you do now.

Overall I'm not sure the army needs all that much. Either boost some of the aspects to earn their points costs, or shave their points a little. Make some of the units that are never taken somewhat useful. And remove some of the tediousness involved with the HQ.

streetsamurai
19-02-2011, 19:06
new plastic kit for dire avenger. They look good, but lack variety

plastic kits for a couple of aspect

New aspects, the slicing orbs of zandros would be ace

BS 4 for vehicuke would be good also

Raibaru
19-02-2011, 19:42
What battlefield role would the slicing orbs fill though? Eldar already have 2 CC units that fulfill different roles, long and short ranged units. Tank busters.

Short of them being a tar pit similar to DE wyches, what do you see them doing?

And yes, plastic Scopions would be a very nice addition to the line. As well as a plastic Farseer/Warlock kit. Plus if they could make a couple different exarch'esque things on each aspect kit they could be used as an Autarch too.

Obrimos
19-02-2011, 19:58
Customizable aspect warriors.
Vypers my carry 2 heavy weapons.
More devastating artillery (big templates).
Pulsar should be S9 lance weapon.
Range upgrade for all weapons.

Bold_or_Stupid
19-02-2011, 20:11
Swooping Hawks at str 4, with the ability to move like jetpacks or jump packs.

Avatar truly scary in a slaughtering units rather than characters (lots of attacks, maybe a Canis Wolfborn type bonus based on enemies in B2B).

Gwyidion
19-02-2011, 22:58
No new aspects unless all current aspects are usable.

Plastic wraithguard, scorps, banshees, hawks, spiders(!), dragons.

Upgrade all heavy support platform options

make guardians viable (s3 ap5 R24 Assault 2 s.cats should do the trick)

All turret weapons on the falcon count as 1 weapon for purposes of firing

Avatar gets EW, +1 W, +2 S, fleet

Army-wide 2d6 choose-highest run, retain current fleet USR

Vehicles priced down 20-30 pts

Walkers -> FA, Vypers lose OT, both vypers and walkers gain 11/10/10, 40pts, equal weapon upgrade costs

Autarchs allow scoring aspects, gain +1 S, +1 A, customizable rulesets

Farseers - mind war triggers off of any psychic power nullification attempt, all defensive powers become line-of-sight limited, not range limited.

4++ across the board for the PLs, all of them get buffed, barhacraptacular-swooping-hawk-guy gets completely reworked. Spiders and spears get PLs, PLs can take 1 retinue squad as a troop, all other squads of their aspect are scoring, (DAs are stubborn)

Harlequins: 18pts, kiss standard, 4++ invuln

DAs: Bladestorm adds rending, does not add +1 shot

Dragons: Feel no Pain (this basically protects them from blowing themselves up with enemy tanks)

Banshees: Hit on a 3+ when charging, struck on a 5+.

Scorpions: Stealth

Reapers: Slow and Purposeful, Targeting Vanes (-1 to enemy cover saves)

Platforms for pulse laser (S8 Ap2 R36" Heavy 2): Guardian platforms, Vypers, wraithlords, war walkers, wave serpents, falcons.

Platforms for bright lance (S9 Ap1 R48" Lance, Heavy 1): Wraithlord, Falcon, Heavy Support Platform (yes, it is only available on heavy support FOC selections)

star cannon: S7 Ap2 R36" Heavy 3: Wraithlord, Guardian platforms, vypers, wraithlords, war walkers, wave serpents, Guardian Jetbikes, Autarch (on jetbike)

Scatter Laser: S6 AP6 R36" Heavy 4: same as star cannon

Shuriken Cannon: S6 Ap4 R24" Heavy 3: same again

Falcons, prisms, night spinners all bs4

wave serpents can buy bs4


Things I think the new codex should NOT have:

assault ramps. (if the wave serpent is going to have the energy field AND assault ramps, we'll be paying 200+ pts for it, if banshees are going to have an exarch power which allows assaults out of moved transports, it will need to cost 50+ pts)

new aspects while current aspects are so bad they are useless

open-topped harlequin transport (farseers make harlequin-bombs too good)

Spell_of_Destruction
20-02-2011, 00:46
Here's an initial wishlist:-

Avatar:- I'd give him +1S and +1T, Eternal Warrior and a bit of a points hike.

Farseer:- I'd like to see Farseers get two powers as standard with the option of 3 with Spirit Stones (the idea being that a Farseer does not use powers which use an enormous amount of psychic energy due to the risks involved).

Guardians:- Get 18" range shuricat and option to take special weapons (fusion gun, flamer and new star rifle with 12" range S AP2 assault 2). Points can stay the same if they get 18" range.

Dire Avengers:- Get Avenger Blades (retractable blades which make them count as having two CC weapons). Bladestorm simply confers assault 3 on shuriken catapults but unit may not assault in the same turn it uses bladestorm.

Striking Scorpions:- They're fine but I think that they are only worth about 14pts per model at current power levels.

Howling Banshees:- Need a bit of a power boost so that you are amply rewarded when you manage to pull off a decent assault with them. Conferring the current war shout ability on to the Banshee mask and having it always take effect (so no need for enemy to fail Ld test) would be a big help in the first round of assault.

Fire Dragons:- Most non-Eldar players probably want to see these guys nerfed but I'd rather they got 3+ saves and a points increase. They're excellent at taking out vehicles but I don't like the fact that they are currently a suicide unit.

Warp Spiders:- These guys are great, wouldn't change anything to the profile. Due to codex creep, I'd reduce them to 20pts per model.

Shining Spears:- Give them grenades and an exarch power that gives them +2A the turn they assault.





Things I think the new codex should NOT have:

assault ramps. (if the wave serpent is going to have the energy field AND assault ramps, we'll be paying 200+ pts for it, if banshees are going to have an exarch power which allows assaults out of moved transports, it will need to cost 50+ pts)

new aspects while current aspects are so bad they are useless

I'm pretty certain that we won't be getting assault ramps (although I think it would be something along the lines of a deceleration chute/field for Eldar) but I'm not sure they would be as game breaking as you suggest. A decent Banshee assault is difficult to execute in 4th and 5th ed and even when you do pull it off, the end result is rarely worth the effort.

Banshees are one of those units that looks good on paper, has the potential to inflict a lot of damage, but is too easy for a decent player to counter.

TheLaughingGod
20-02-2011, 07:38
I'm in favor of most of these ideas. I don't like the idea of making Shuriken Catapults S3. That makes no sense. Up the range, but don't make them weaker. I mean, we're in an edition where you have Dreadnought troops, Power weapons and invuls in troops and 30" Strength 5 basic infantry weapons on 4+ save models. I really don't see how a Strength 4 AP 5 24" assault 2 gun is going to break the game. It SHOULD be slightly better than the bolter.

I still think Guardians need slightly better armor. I mean, BS3 and WS3 is fine (except on vehicles. Targeters, duh.)

Splog
20-02-2011, 07:42
- Bring the FW stuff into the codex

- Plan out and emphasise three strands in the codex in terms of rules and background: craftworld militia, aspects, and corsairs/outcasts/wanders, each with viable non-'special' units in each slots of the force chart. The militia are generally low skilled but have the heavy equipment (farseers, guardians, tanks, wraith units etc). Miliitia tanks etc would remain BS3, but can be upgraded to BS4 with an upgrade. The aspects are highly skilled infantry, with high quality equipment, but are specialised and ritualised with no options for variations within the unit outside of the exarch (aspect warriors and a new HQ). The corsairs are a little in between the other two in terms of stats and equipment (rangers, pathfinders, Wasp Assault Walkers, etc).

- Various points adjustments (yes, that is a bit non-specific), e.g. drop in points for brightlances and shining spears.

- Autarch stats drop to an exarch with 2 wounds, gains additional 'strategic powers', same points as a farseer.

- An exarch HQ with stats at what an autarch is now, but with access to exarch powers and wargear

- Phoenix Lords make their relevant aspect scoring

- Phoenix Lords for all aspects

- Squad exarchs all get access to three powers (as per their Phoenix Lord) to choose from. Two 'special' wargear options (e.g. no bog standard power weapons or heavy flamers) that makes them better at what their aspect does not something that is different that supports the unit (e.g. no heavy flamer for fire dragons). The exarch powers should be rejigged a little so that they reflect the nature of the avatar and/or the avatar is changed so it reflects the powers. For example, Fire Dragon exarchs (instead of FNP?) can get an immunity to flame/melta weapons as per the avatar.

- The Avatar gains immunity to plasma weapons (as per the apoc sheet). The wailing doom has an effect when he kills people, e.g. the avatar has a -2 LD bubble around him that is 1" big for every unsaved wound he has inflicted in the battle, or his kills count as double for combat resolution.

- A venom equivalent as a dedicated transport

- Close combat wraithguard (e.g. swap wraithcannons for power weapons that re-roll to hit (as per wraithswords) and can cause instant death (as per direswords)).

- Wraithlords have an option to take two swords

- War Walkers moved to fast attack

- Warlock units can be taken as an elite choice. The squad leader can be upgraded to a 'battle seer', or whatever, to represent a warlock stuck on the path. Stat increases reflect the current difference between warlocks and guardians and their psychic powers, so something like +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 LD, 3++ save, witch weapon gains rending. Additional psychic powers and abilities.

- A change to the destructor power so it isn't so obviously wargear-as-a-psychic-power.

- Hawks need a complete overhaul. One thing I was thinking of was to give them sniper rifles, and allow them to make their template attack whenever they move over a unit.

- Shuriken catapults 18", Dire Avengers count as twin linked

* Acute senses for all aspects

Hendarion
20-02-2011, 07:44
Well, S3-catapults is nothing to talk about anyway. It's not going to happen.

TheLaughingGod
20-02-2011, 07:50
Well, S3-catapults is nothing to talk about anyway. It's not going to happen.

I agree. It's absurd. But people keep going on about it. And lasblasters. Silly people.

I still think Guardians need something. They just aren't worth taking as is. I don't think they need to be cheaper and left alone. Horde Guardians makes no sense at all.

Hendarion, I know you're against more survivable Guardians, but maybe longer ranged catapults and Heavy weapon + two assault weapons? You could do something like Brightlance platform and two Star rifles or something? Or maybe the option to take a Shuriken cannon as a special weapon? (Like the Warriors can?)

I figure if Guardians are going to be easy to kill, they should at least hit hard from a decent range?

Oh. Wait. How about this, what if Storm Guardians had heavier armor and Defenders had lighter armor? That would at least make sense to have a short ranged assault unit with heavier suits and then a ranged support unit with lighter armor, right?

theJ
20-02-2011, 07:53
As I think I managed to make a point of in the last thread - I'd like less "adjustments" and more "rethinking" of most of the entries.

Eldar has had all their "shiny bits" stole-- err... "borrowed" by other armies. A few point or stat changes ain't gonna cut it - we need rethinking. We need advantages.

As was also made rather clear in the last thread (new codex wishlisting) we don't really need a whole lot of new units. Putting the FW stuff in there would be nice, but we'd gain a lot more from having our existing stuff rethought than we'd gain from a bunch of brand new entries.

Ivellis
20-02-2011, 08:04
- +1WS and/or BS across the board. (Such as +1BS for guardians, +1WS for Striking Scorpions, +1BS for Dark Reapers)
- Exarches have +1WS or BS, 2 wounds and a 2+ save.
- Farseer gets one free power and may buy a second. Also is T4.
- Autarch makes any unit it joins scoring and can buy several tactical upgrades.
- Phoenix Lords have at least 5+ invulnerables.
- Some units are S4 or T4, not both.
- Aspect armour increased to 3+, Guardians 4+
- More gear choices for aspect squads, as Gav's Path of the Warrior.
- Avatar gets some kind of attacks bonus, possibly d3 attacks on charge and eternal warrior.
- Wraithlord may take up to two wraithswords instead of ranged weapons. One sword rerolls 1s to hit and has +1 attack. Two swords reroll all failed hits and has +2 attacks.
- Vyper is a two wound eldar jetbike.
- Starcannon is Heavy 3.
- Dual power weapon wielding wraithguard unit.
- Not sure what to do with shuriken catapults. Possibly R18" S3 AP5 Assault 2 Rending.
- FIX HAWKS!!
- A LOT MORE FLUFF!!!
- Also the full colour hardback thing would be great. Oh and ART, lots of it.

Splog
20-02-2011, 08:08
Oh, and none of this "see page xx" in the wargear section rubbish. Full entries should be provided. Configuration control for this within the document is trivial.

The reference page should be on the last page.

Two editions of the codex, the new edition doubling in size with decent content (not including additional hobby/photo pages) and in hard back.

Hendarion
20-02-2011, 08:15
Hendarion, I know you're against more survivable Guardians, but maybe longer ranged catapults and Heavy weapon + two assault weapons? You could do something like Brightlance platform and two Star rifles or something? Or maybe the option to take a Shuriken cannon as a special weapon? (Like the Warriors can?)

I figure if Guardians are going to be easy to kill, they should at least hit hard from a decent range?

Oh. Wait. How about this, what if Storm Guardians had heavier armor and Defenders had lighter armor? That would at least make sense to have a short ranged assault unit with heavier suits and then a ranged support unit with lighter armor, right?
I can agree with all of that. Defenders won't need better armour if they had better range (which they had in the past). Guardians are pretty versatile (at least that was their idea), now it's time to give them the required tools to do so.
Storm Guardians go into close range and although they aren't any more useful than close-range-killing vehicless or flaming hordes (as they suck with WS3/S3), they seriously need better defense. And here I could also agree to at least give them 4+. DarkEldar are sending Wyches with paper-armour into CC, but Wyches are agile enough to dodge and compensate. CWE shouldn't be able to dodge, but still clever enough to not use paper armour in hand-to-hand combat.

kasrkinsquad
20-02-2011, 13:17
I would like to see a cost reduction accross the board and buying the exarch grants their powers. In addition I would like to see BS4 across the board.

Bubble Ghost
20-02-2011, 13:33
A general move towards increased mobility without that necessarily meaning psycho-mega-one-turn charge ranges. The specifics don't matter as long as they all contribute to the Eldar feeling like Eldar, and not a flimsy army with a load of unlikely patches to hide the fact that the rules don't really represent how they're supposed to fight.

Kresterz
20-02-2011, 14:13
Anyone add range buff for shuriken weapon?
We should make vehicles BS4, guardians aren't neccesarily need that buff?

Cost reduction to some extent will be neccesary as well as inclusion of certain Forge world items!

Give avatar certain aspect based powers when a aspect squad is within 12" based on which aspect. Give wailing doom range buff

Give us more troops?

i think we need new molds of the phoenix lords,warlocks and more.

Hendarion
20-02-2011, 14:46
Give avatar certain aspect based powers when a aspect squad is within 12" based on which aspect.
Expensive, too complex for a Codex special rule and imo not fluffy (not fitting with existing fluff).

Shamana
20-02-2011, 15:05
For the Avatar, I am hoping for a simple buff for nearby aspects, such as FC (as they get in the Court of the Young King datasheet), and, say, FnP for exarchs. The idea is that any aspect in the presece of their god would fight beyond their strength - and in the case of exarchs, beyond death itself. That is somewhat unfair regarding shooting aspects (in which case rerolling to wound would be fairer), but such is life - being overcome with bloodlust and fury in the presence of your racial incarnation of violence might not make Jho'nnie Longears a better shot.

Alternatively, the FNP aura could be a purchaseable upgrade affecting all aspects, kind of like the Chaos Daemons' gifts, but I'm not sure if this wouldn't be against the fluff - is there a mention of different craftworlds' avatars being different in their ability, or it varying depending on the Young King sacrifice?

For guardians, I had previously thrown out the idea of "basic guardians" being able to get both support platforms and special weapons, with "black guardians" (+1 BS or WS) and "storm guardians" (4+ save) being purchaseable upgrades for one or two points per moder. They would be used to reflect craftworlds with special martial traditions (such as Ulthwe) or guardian bands given extra armor for a particular combat task that requires additional protection (i.e. storming or "besieging*" a heavily defended position).

*: while the Eldar supposedly don't engage in traditional siege warfare, the idea of engaging the defenders of a fortified position might not be fully unknown.

Dwane Diblie
20-02-2011, 15:45
No new aspects unless all current aspects are usable.
+1


make guardians viable (s3 ap5 R24 Assault 2 s.cats should do the trick)
aka: Lasblaster?
Yes Guardians should have lasblaster and an option for S.Cats also. I use to think 12" was fine, I have now come around to the belef of all catapults being 18" DA and G. Oh and Vehicles.


DAs: Bladestorm adds rending, does not add +1 shot
This is an interesting idea in that it brings guardians back in to the picture.


Reapers: Slow and Purposeful, Targeting Vanes (-1 to enemy cover saves)
S&P I kind of understand but I am not screaming for it.
Targeting Vanes/Range Finder Helmet I have wanted back for a long time. The -1 to cover can come from the Exarch I think. But the unit should beable to ignore Stealth and Obscured rules. This would also come with a strength increase to 6 for the RML, as 5 is usless against almost all vehicles.


Falcons, prisms, night spinners all bs4
+1



- Hawks need a complete overhaul. One thing I was thinking of was to give them sniper rifles, and allow them to make their template attack whenever they move over a unit.
Ha! That is interesting. Flying snipers. How about R24" SX Ap5 Assult 2 Poison(4+), Pinning, Rending. OR R36" SX Ap5 Rapidfire, Sniper, AP1 on 6 to hit. I think the first is better as it leaves the long range in the hands of the path finders.
As for Swooping Hawks Jump. 24" jump. can't assult. Can drop grenades along path.


Now for my ideas.....

Guardians (both): Weapon option for every 5 members in unit.

Support Weapon Battery: For every Guardian unit (Defender/Storm/Jetbike) you may take a SWB that dose not count towards the troop allocation of the army.

Storm and Defenders their own unit entrys. Give them back grenades.

Vipers returning to Viper Jetbikes and therefor be given a jetbike statline and rules. They would then replace the Shuriken Cannon upgrade in the standard JB unit or form a unit of 1-5 as a FA choice. No upgrade for the catapults while in the JB unit.

Someone mentioned 4+ armour for defenders? Option only please. I do not want to have to be forced to pay for this if I feel it unnessessery. But good idea and explanation as for why.

Aspect Warrior squad sizes returned to 3-7. All of them. Power increased to compensate. Make them stronger at what they do but keep them just a fragile. DAs excluded as they are prety good as it is.

Falcons as dedi for Aspects and BS4

Each Aspect squad has an Exarch built in to it. This exarch has the same profile as the rest of the squad and can choose wargear. You can then upgrade your Exarchs statline and give it warrior powers also.

Character exarch with W2. NO++. Choose wargear and warrior powers from any aspect. If all options derive from only one aspect, then that Aspect counts as scoring. Can not lead army.

All Phoenix Lords have 4++. Their Aspect counts as troop. This is better than the scoring that the Exaech can produce with units counting as scoring.

Avatar. Improve him. I do not care how. But I want him to be worth more than any phonix lord. They are an aspect of him and not him compleatly. He should be as good as all of them combined to be honest. But I will be happy with better than any Phoenix Lord.

Avatar allows the choice of a CotYK consisting of 3-7 Exarch Characters with none of the units counting as scoring rules.

Farseers. 3 tiers of Farseer. Young, Old and Eldar. As it gets older it loses its fighting ability but gains power and wisdom. Body becomes harder, granting an increase to toughness and wounds. Introduce the Psyker (Mastery Level #) That GKs are supose to be getting. Young is the only one that can ride a Jet Bike as the others are to frail and old to do so.

Warlocks prety much fine as they are now. Want more weapon options for them. Give them proper powers and allow others to nulify them.

A Massive list of Psychic Powers. Everyone else is getting the treatment. So should Eldar the best psykers in the universe. I don't care if they are overly powerful, I just want lots to choose from.

Thats all I can think of for now.

Raibaru
20-02-2011, 16:31
I don't like the idea of guardians playing a larger role in the army. While it makes some sense from a background standpoint that guardians would be a large part of the force, it doesn't mean that needs to carry over to 40k.

Make guardians the support units like they're currently trying to be now. Let them have BS4 on all platforms and vehicles. And give the catapult a normal bolter rapid fire profile and call it a day.

Guardians in support with Dire Avengers picking up the slack + making a random aspect a troop choice dependent on the HQ options should be suitable enough for the Eldar troop choices.

Kresterz
20-02-2011, 16:47
Each Aspect squad has an Exarch built in to it. This exarch has the same profile as the rest of the squad and can choose wargear. You can then upgrade your Exarchs statline and give it warrior powers also.

Aspect Warrior squad sizes returned to 3-7. All of them. Power increased to compensate. Make them stronger at what they do but keep them just a fragile. DAs excluded as they are prety good as it is.




Uhm, no... Simply because this would take out a purpose of a squad that lost exarch like in PotW...?

That and it will invariably cause more point drain

The standard squad size being brought to 3? That looks like friends walking into a battlefield, not really good...

Spell_of_Destruction
20-02-2011, 20:36
I can agree with all of that. Defenders won't need better armour if they had better range (which they had in the past). Guardians are pretty versatile (at least that was their idea), now it's time to give them the required tools to do so.
Storm Guardians go into close range and although they aren't any more useful than close-range-killing vehicless or flaming hordes (as they suck with WS3/S3), they seriously need better defense. And here I could also agree to at least give them 4+. DarkEldar are sending Wyches with paper-armour into CC, but Wyches are agile enough to dodge and compensate. CWE shouldn't be able to dodge, but still clever enough to not use paper armour in hand-to-hand combat.

Change "Conceal" so that it confers the Steath USR and I think that would give Guardians the resiliency buff they need.

I forgot to mention Hawks in my last post. I would drop them down to say 16-18pts and make lasblasters assault 3. That might seem excessive but I think that we need to acknowledge what a liability it is to be T3 with a 4+ save without the potential safety of a transport.

Harfaern
20-02-2011, 20:51
- Hawks need a complete overhaul. One thing I was thinking of was to give them sniper rifles, and allow them to make their template attack whenever they move over a unit.

Not sure about the sniper rifle, but the template attack during the move + change the jump pack for a jump jet (wasp walkers) could simulate quite well the 2ed "drop grenade" attack

Hendarion
20-02-2011, 21:03
Change "Conceal" so that it confers the Steath USR and I think that would give Guardians the resiliency buff they need.
Generally true, but that would make a Warlock with Conceal mandatory and block all other choice for powers. I kinda dislike that idea. We already got the "you-have-to-take-a-farseer-to-make-your-units-work"-thing and we shouldn't ask to expand it also on warlocks.

TheLaughingGod
20-02-2011, 21:04
I don't like the idea of guardians playing a larger role in the army. While it makes some sense from a background standpoint that guardians would be a large part of the force, it doesn't mean that needs to carry over to 40k.
The problem is that there are craftworlds that rely on Guardian squads for main battle duties. I would even say that only Biel-tan and similar craftworlds can really get away with Aspect forces all the time for large conflicts.

Guardians should have a significant role if desired by the player.



Make guardians the support units like they're currently trying to be now. Let them have BS4 on all platforms and vehicles. And give the catapult a normal bolter rapid fire profile and call it a day.
Why? What's the point it making a unit no one will want? And do we really need MORE bolter equivalents in the game? I don't think so.

htmlord
20-02-2011, 21:25
Swooping Hawks as dedicated anti-tank: Haywire grenade launchers to replace the lasblaster - Assault 1 24" Glances on a 3-4 Penn's on a 5-6. S2 AP6 vs non-vehicles (getting hit in the head with a grenade would still hurt, even if it doesn't explode)

Shur Cats as S4 AP6 Assault 2 24", maybe? Assault 2 is better than a bolter, but AP6 is worse. And no weapons that readily come to mind have that profile.

Conceal as Stealth USR is nice (with the difficulties Hendarion mentions), but why not just make it a squad upgrade a la Camo Cloaks or Carapace Armour for IG?

Someone said Wraithsight as a double edged sword, 1 in 6 to stand there but also immunity to Poison weapons. +1 to that.

Kresterz
20-02-2011, 21:40
I think we might need better vehicle statline, just because a vehicle usually has some kind of targeting system...

maybe not the serpent but the falcon should and so should walkers.

Make pysker wraith units? If not then howabout some plastic wraith guard.

Maybe some new molds of Phoenix lord, warlocks etc.

A new walker that is closed top and only has gravity wells whereby it has heavy1 30" strength 6, pinning and can also use template like the warp hunter! Follows same walker statline and uses antigravity boosters to move 12" / 18"? It has special shields that protect against heavy only. Troop choice???

Nocculum
20-02-2011, 22:11
That walker sounds like a Battlesuit :p.

htmlord
20-02-2011, 22:24
New Warlock power: Poison weapons suffer a -1 to wound (so 4+ now wounds on 5+, 2+ on 3+, etc)

Going from that in an interesting way to make Guardians more resilient - all weapons suffer a -1 to wound (6 always wounds) for a Warlock power. Would effectively make Guardians T4 (or better, if the weapon is high enough strength), or Guardian jetbikes T5. Could be a little too powerful on Seer Councils, though.

We need a decent antitransport unit. Warwalkers with Scatters or EML's are decent, but they occupy a very full slot. Walkers to Fast Attack, as previously noted, and let Wraithlords that take 2 of a single weapon get 2 of that weapon instead of just a twinlinked version of it. Point cut on most of the weapons.

TheLaughingGod
20-02-2011, 22:32
Shur Cats as S4 AP6 Assault 2 24", maybe? Assault 2 is better than a bolter, but AP6 is worse. And no weapons that readily come to mind have that profile. Why does the weapon have to be WORSE? Why can't it be BETTER than a bolter? They have better technology. It's not like they have marine statlines.



Conceal as Stealth USR is nice (with the difficulties Hendarion mentions), but why not just make it a squad upgrade a la Camo Cloaks or Carapace Armour for IG?
Maybe a holographic field generator that obscures them?

Giltharin
20-02-2011, 23:27
A few things I'd like to see in the (far?) future dex:

- Banshees: WS 5 and halve enemy WS in first round of combat (this will make most enemies hit banshees on 5+ but other "average" squads that may charge together with the banshees on 4+, also it wil not hit too hard those with very high WS compared to WS1 on the first round)

- Heavy Weapons:
Shurican: as is (short ranged but fairly all rounder)
Scatter Laser: S6 AP- H4 (focus on hordes - limited anti vehicle)
Star Cannon: S5 AP2 H3 (focus on heavy infantry - no anti vehicle)
Pulse: as is
EML: as is
Bright Lance: S7 Ap2 H2 lance (on average is better then single shot S8AP2lance on any given armour)

- Dire Avengers: plasma grenades and 2CCW
- Dark Reaper: back to EML, reaper targeting array: ignores effects of targets moving at high speed (fast vehicles, turbo boosting) 3-5
- Autarch: reduce WS and BS, make master strategist affect steal initiative/reserves/flank assault
- Swooping Hawsk: lasblaster 24" S3 ap5 ass 2 + grenade launcher (hywire), skyleap: move up to 30”, land as if coming from deep strike, scatters 1d6; when skyleaping choose an enemy unit anywhere under the trajectory, you may drop grenades on them: large blast S4AP5 pinning or blast haywire (role is to arass enemy)
- Warp spiders: non vehicle targets unit next turn move as if they where in difficult terrain
- Wave Serpent: reduce cost in general, power field grants 4+ cover to friendly units with all models within 2" of embarking ramp from shoots coming from front/side of the WS
- Avatar: make it 200ish points and the uber fighter he's supposed to be
- Vypers: scout, reduced cost
- Wraithguard: 2Wounds, wraithcannon rapid fire 18"
- Shuricats: make 18" standard
- Guardians Jetbike: AS4+, big cost reduction
- Guardians: I'd go for AS4+ standard, with 18" shuricats that'd make them fairly interesting tactical squads; defenders may purchase heavy or support platform
- Holo Field: makes harder to target: no effect if stationary, re-roll hits if the vehicle moved - no effect on HTH

Cheers
Giltharin

Nocculum
20-02-2011, 23:33
What is everyone's preradiation with making Dire Avengers grossly overpowered?

Is a 5+ invulnerable in combat, -1 attack in base to base and 3 STR4 shots before assault or pre-being assaulted with 4+ save standard not good enough?

Raibaru
21-02-2011, 00:30
The problem is that there are craftworlds that rely on Guardian squads for main battle duties. I would even say that only Biel-tan and similar craftworlds can really get away with Aspect forces all the time for large conflicts.

Guardians should have a significant role if desired by the player.


Why? What's the point it making a unit no one will want? And do we really need MORE bolter equivalents in the game? I don't think so.


Ulthwe is the only one that is so heavily focused on guardians that it would be an issue, but they put all their points in a seer council anyway. Why can't Ulthwe be the Eldar equivalent of Deathwing with low model count, highly effective units? Guardians being 5-20 with every 10 allowing a support platform that is BS4 while all the models in the unit get 24" rapid fire is pretty good in my eyes.

And what is wrong with there being a bolter equivalent in the catapult? Make the guardian one like this and make the dire avenger one str5 AP 5 assault 2 18" or something.

This way you have a strong center where the guardians play the same general role as any other mid-range support unit but still feels quite eldar by being mostly ranged specialized. And the on top of this you make the Dire Avengers still fill the same role, but not obsolete. And best of all, the guardians aren't the focus of the army. They're very clearly designed to be a hang back and support unit. And with BS4 on the platforms they'll perform this role quite well.

Then you can do silly things like give the Warlocks a power to grant FNP. Or reduce the range of attacks against them. Things to further force them into the support role.

Spell_of_Destruction
21-02-2011, 01:53
What is everyone's preradiation with making Dire Avengers grossly overpowered?

Is a 5+ invulnerable in combat, -1 attack in base to base and 3 STR4 shots before assault or pre-being assaulted with 4+ save standard not good enough?

For what you currently pay for them? No. Currently, they're not an especially competitive choice.

Bladestorm is one of the most overrated abilities in the game. Considering what you have to pay for it, you would think that the disadvantage would be a bit less severe. And without 2 attacks in CC, the CC abilities the exarch can confer on the squad are fairly worthless. You pay through the nose for them as well and points are a premium in an Eldar force.

I fail to see how giving them 2CCWs would make them overpowered. They would still be mediocre assault troops (it would make them half decent against weaker troops such as Guardsmen) but a half decent tarpit unit.


Generally true, but that would make a Warlock with Conceal mandatory and block all other choice for powers. I kinda dislike that idea. We already got the "you-have-to-take-a-farseer-to-make-your-units-work"-thing and we shouldn't ask to expand it also on warlocks.

Fair point although Destructor and Enhance are currently choices I would never take for a Defender squad. Pre 5th ed I always took Conceal on Defenders and now it's always embolden (if I take a Warlock at all on the rare occasions I use Defenders) because a power which grants a 5+ cover save is next to worthless in 5th.

SgtTaters
21-02-2011, 02:29
Dire Avengers are frontline versatile fighters
Jetbikes are fast, Rangers are stealthy and snipers, Wraithguard are tough

so what is the Guardian's role? Right now it is "horde bullet catcher" the conscript to the guardsmen, the grot to the ork, the guardian to the warrior. The problem though is it leaves a rather unsavory taste... so how should civilian militia fit into the strikeforce of super advanced space elves? Here's my shot at it...

Eldar Guardian, 8pts
10-20
18" catapult, defensive grenades as standard.
storm guardian have assault grenades and access to haywire for +1pt
special rule-
WAR CALLS: The Eldar are a race in decline, every loss keenly felt, yet in times of great desperation even the civilian populace will be mobilized to war. These guardians readily face death, fighting alongside their warrior brethren for a future that may never come.
Eldar units within 6" of the guardian squad may reroll failed regroup tests, and may test to regroup even when under half strength or within 6" of enemies.


Their role is still to bolster the ranks of the Eldar, but instead of just being ablative wounds, they keep the Eldar stuck in. They will not outfight the avenger, are not faster than jetbikes, are not specialists like the ranger, but they will keep them all fighting. When guardians take the field it means that times are very desperate, the stakes are the very future of their race and all Eldar, be they warrior or civilian, will fight and die for it.
An effect similar to using the Avatar.

Retribution
21-02-2011, 03:07
You'd think a dying race could do better than throwing it's populace into the meat-grinder with nothing better than a teeshirt and a bb-gun

Inquisitor Engel
21-02-2011, 03:36
You'd think a dying race could do better than throwing it's populace into the meat-grinder with nothing better than a teeshirt and a bb-gun

The Shuriken Catapult certainly needs some more range, but I've seen Terminator squad disappear under a hail of fire from Eldar Guardians.

Spell_of_Destruction
21-02-2011, 03:51
The Shuriken Catapult certainly needs some more range, but I've seen Terminator squad disappear under a hail of fire from Eldar Guardians.

A full squad gives you enough dice to make this a possibility if you roll well and your opponent rolls poorly but the stats show that you need 12 Guardians to kill 1 Terminator on average.

Not that Guardians should be Terminator killers...

Inquisitor Engel
21-02-2011, 03:59
A full squad gives you enough dice to make this a possibility if you roll well and your opponent rolls poorly but the stats show that you need 12 Guardians to kill 1 Terminator on average.

Not that Guardians should be Terminator killers...

I didn't say I did it often, I just said it happens. ;) They're also typically numerous enough to take any survivors down in CC thanks to the number of dice being rolled.

I also take Guardians in squads of 20. :D I typically attach a Warlock to the squad with Enhance or Conceal and then an IC Farseer joins with Guide (and fortune to combine with that conceal). Guide is worth it's weight in GOLD with Guardians.

Kresterz
21-02-2011, 04:03
For the grenades, you couldmake them +2 points to make each unit an even number...

Yes, the shuirken catapults need range buff...

I think it couldbe possible that aspects are pretty fine as they are stat wise...

Maybe if we make the entire unit have two diferent types of weapon options, however, they cannot be both and all units have to be the same weapon option.

For example: More anti tank hawks v.s. more anti infantry? Just switch weapons and give exarch according skills under that weapon option...

We could definitely use some more troop allocation after a certain squad size like 10 wraithguard+spirit seer options. Perhaps 3 walkers and maybe 3 vypers can do this??? Heck why not make it 5? That number is certainly scary but expensive enough...

Inquisitor Engel
21-02-2011, 04:53
General vehicle upgrade: Assault Ramps. Provided an Eldar transport does not turbo-boost or use Star-Engines, Eldar infantry with the Fleet rule may assault on the same turn they disembark. I'd probably add the caveat that they can't shoot though, their focus is on leaping out of a speeding vehicle 10 feet off the ground and not breaking a dainty ankle.

As it stands, my Banshees have to either sit inside a stationary vehicle for a turn (and therefore die in horrible melta fire explosions) or sit outside (and therefore die to a hail mass-reactive bolts).

The Eldar (of all three varieties) are the fastest army in the game. They should be able to pull up, roll out and slice-n-dice. They can't consolidate into another combat like the days of yore but it means they will survive and will DO THEIR DAMNED JOB.

Other changes -

Banshees - WS5 is a must. They should also half enemy weapon skill in first round and if the Banshees win the combat (but fail to wipe out the unit for whatever reason)
Dire Avengers - Different Shuriken Catapults than Guardians. Re-roll to Wound OR to Hit?
Warp spiders: Unit Strength 5 (smaller units move through the webway better) No getting lost in the warp. Enemy units must pass strength tests or suffer a AP3 StrX+2 wound per model. X is the number of models in the unit. The whole unit fires one massive cloud so the strength of the cloud is directly correlated to the number of units firing. Obviously, vehicles don't really get effected, maybe difficult terrain.
Avatar: Variable points cost and special abilities depending on which Exarch you choose to sacrifice before the game. You must take a unit of said Aspect in your army.
Wraithguard: 2 Wounds, FNP.
Shuricats: 18" Str4 AP5 Assault 2 for everyone.

Athlan na Dyr
21-02-2011, 06:05
I disagree with Assault Ramps. Either the various Close Combat Aspects are going to go down in effectiveness/ up in price or it's going to be far to Over Powered. A better option would be the AOE energy shield for the Wave serpent that someone mentioned earlier... Perhaps some sort of cover save, penalty to hit, etc.

As for what I would do, the first thing would be to make the Avatar a killing machine. This is our version of a Greater Daemon, why isn't it anywhere near as good? I would either increase the Attacks and Strength but get rid of the Wailing Doom or give the option of three weapon 'modes' that can be switched at the start of each of the Eldar player's turn. Aside from being fluff accurate (WD can be spear, axe or sword) the modes could confer a ranged attack, a single s10 attack dealing multiple wounds (with reroll to hit) or a multitude of s6 attacks. This would mean that rather than being fixed to doing one thing, the Avatar could adapt and change, again reflecting its nature of being the progenitor of all the aspects.

Most of the other things I would like to see (Guardian improvements, Banshee changes and BS4 tanks) have already been said, so the only other thing I would add would be a flyer (purely because I want one)

RandomThoughts
21-02-2011, 10:22
Let's roll out a few more:

WEAPONS AND GENERAL RULES

Shurican Catapults in General: I would love to buff all ShuriCats in range, at least up to 18", if it were me we'd get 24" ShuriCats across the board! The Dire Avenger catapults could be the exception to the rule, with range sacrificed for additional fire power, say 18" and Assault 3. Just to stress the fact that Dire Avengers see themselves more as a front line unit compared to the militia holding back with support fire.

All Heavy Weapons: BS never below 4 due to Targeters and anti grav stabilizing harnesses.

Brightlance: 48" S10 AP1 Heavy1, Lance
I don't care how expansive it is, but I think the Eldar should have the one weapon feared by tanks across the galaxy. For those of you that know Babylon 5, think of the massive energy beams fired by the slender Minbary spaceships.

Pulse Laser: 48" S10 AP1 Heavy2, Lance
(see Brightlance)

Eldar Jetbikes: Hit and Run for all Eldar Jetbikes with no additional cost!

Weapon Upgrade: Vectored Engines
Mostly ignored these days, let's redefine it as a very smooth mode of flight that allows the tank carrying it to limit restrictions on weapon fire after moving and disembarking units get to charge the turn they disembark. Remember, it's still an optional upgrade nobody is forcing you to take!

INDIVIDUAL UNITS

Avatar looks okay to me. I never use him, but that is simply because I never have the points. S8 T8 might change that, however, as he'd directly take the role of my Wraithlords then. Not sure it's a good Idea, though.

Farseer is great but could be improved. Runes of Witnessing nullifying any enemy effect on casting for example (Psychic Hood), Eldritch Storm needs a serious buff, Mind War could be improved somehow. What I really want to see is cast powers at the appropriate time - guide and doom time during the shooting phase, fortune at the end of your turn (during your opponents turn would be even nastier, but would circumvent the current Spirit Stones rule). Allow all Farseers to cast the same (non-shooting) power twice a turn with Spirit Stones.
I'd also love to see a power similar to Doom that denies one unit any armor saves for that turn (and FNP, obviously) - probably to overpowered, though.

Warlocks are great, except that they seem slightly overpriced for what they actually do. Psychic powers that make all Witchblades and Singing Spears power weapons or S9 all the time could help tremendously. A fortune option for the own unit as an additional power would also help tremendously, as Warlocks could then go off on their own while the Farseer helps other units. Probably overpowered, though, especially when taken in Guardian and Guardian Jetbike squads.
Personally I'd simply go with a point reduction - probably 10 points per model. A four-men Jetlock unit with powers would then come in at just about 180 points + obligatory FortuneSeer - still pretty expansive.
Spiritseer should affect Wraithunits within range with their powers as if they were part of the same unit, i.e. Enhanced Wraithlords walking in front of Enhanced Guardians with Spiritseer.

Autarch: More variety to Master Strategist, perhaps a number of possible effects to choose from (improve reserve rolls, steal initiative, count as troops, +1 BS for all units within 12", and so on); Powerfist!

Phoenix Lords: 4++ saves, point reductions, retooling in some cases, I guess.

Guardians: Range buff to the ShuriCat as above, perhaps the +1 BS option for heavy Weapons everyone is talking about (explained with either targeters or special firing gear built into the anti grav platforms or directly into the weapons). I'd also suggest 1 anti grav weapon per 5 Guardians or 1 Support weapon per 10 guardians (thereby eliminating the Support Weapon entry in the Heavy Support section). Also remove gunners, every single Guardian can take control of any weapon attached to the squad.

Storm Guardians: Grenades. Good Grenades. How about 1 special weapon for each 3 models in the unit?

Guardian Jetbikes: obviously the same range buff on ShuriCats as everything else, perhaps a slight drop in points costs, otherwise the unit is fine as far as I can see.

Dire Avengers: see ShuriCat buff above. Beyond that, I have not a clue. I am certainly against the two cc weapons. Dire Avengers were always focused on their ShuriCats as the centerpiece of their martial tradition. If you really want to buff their close combat abilities, which I personally don't think fits the fluff, how about optional bayonets that turn their ShuriCats into two handed close combat weapons with +2 Strength?

Rangers/Pathfinders: replace their special rules for sniping/rending with the regular ones; pathfinders can still ignore armor on a roll of 5+ on the to hit roll. However, let them ignore cover with rending shots!

Wraithguard: Immunity to poison as a beneficiary effect of Wraithsight. Feel no Pain and/or an additional 5++ or 4++ save (they are the terminators of the Eldar army, right?) and/or 2 wounds and/or 2+ regular save (again, terminators of the Eldar army, right?). What they really need however, in my opinion, is some rule that allows them to use their guns after they got charged. My personal solution would be a variant on the Hit and Run rule that uses a Strength roll and only moves them 1d6".
What also kind of bothers me is that the Instant Death attack only comes up on a roll of 6. Perhaps it is extremely well balanced gameplay wise, but I find it weird that not all shots with a weapon that rips open a tiny black hole are Instand Death...

Serpent: To expansive?

Banshees: Furious Charge - it just fits the fluff. Redesign War Shout - why not WS 10 in the first turn of an assault to go along with the I 10 granted by the basic Banshee Masks?

Scorpions: Look fine to me.

Fire Dragons: I think they should really get back the 3+ armor they had in second edition. Otherwise they look absolutely fine to me. Crack Shot could double in price and affect the whole unit in exchange (see Dark Reapers for more on that).

Harlequins: No clue, never used them, except for some playtesting as Wraithlord babysitters (I loved the fluff, they became essentially the hidden puppeteers from Japanese Bunraku theater guiding a bunch of huge wraith puppets while remaining unseen themselves), whenever they had to get their hands dirty, they usually died quickly due to the meager 5++ save they have. Basic Ork Lootas slaughtered them once.

Shining Spears: overprices, underpowered. I'd still love to see their lances become double handed weapons (+2 Strength) that hit first during an assault. With a combined assault strength of 8 (double strength 3, than add 2) they would become much more efficient at blasting through Tanks, Dreadnoughts, Nobs, Space Marine Characters and whatever else tough units they find in their path. Reduced cost and/or increased unit size are also viable options, as would be a charge bonus of +1 or +2 A each (possibly as an exarch power).

Vypers: Just making them cheaper so that they compare favorably to the War Walker again might be enough; their vehicle upgrades definitely need to be a lot cheaper - a Holo Field on a Vyper is far less valuable than a Holo Field on a AV12 tank!
I personally think they need the extra 6" move in the assault phase of normal Eldar Jetbikes. I'd go even further and make them a regular jetbike with 2 Wounds like a Space Marine Attack bike or an Ork Kopta.

Warp Spiders: I think their secondary jump is to unreliable. Replace Surprise Attack with an Exarch power that grants a reroll on the Jump. You won't get great results all the time, but you won't be stuck in charge range on a bad roll of 3 and you can always use the second roll to prevent Lost in the Warp.

Swooping Hawks: I think we all agree, that they need a major overhaul. Before we even discuss specific buffs, I think we should first redefine their role on the battlefield. I can see them either as a fast, elusive shooting unit or as an aggressive grenade delivery unit.
As a fast shooting unit, I think they need better shooting and probably stealth and/or an assault phase move like a Jetbike or a Warp Spider. Presuming they keep 24" S3 Lasblasters, I think they need Assault4 to become viable, in addition to rending and/or pinning. (I did some mathhammer a while back, and 2 S3 shots about equal 1 S6 shot in efficiency against infantry while never ever grazing a vehicle).
As an aggressive jump unit / grenade delivery unit they definitely need to stay out of hand-to-hand to stay alive. I personally would love to add two rules to the basic Hawk Wings: Hit and Run and "Always hit as if they were speeding skimmers" (i.e. 6+ in close combat). There are so many things that could be done with that, from simply adding a cheap stalling unit to keeping Devestators busy for an infinite amount of time.
Additional options would be a 24" basic move (for either role), dropping Grenades as they fly by, optional combat blades that make their lasblasters double handed weapons with +2 Strength), perhaps an optional Power Spear for the exarch (double handed, +2 S - and would make for great visuals!), what they definitely need are improved Haywire Grenades.
Combine all these rules (24" move, Assault 4 Lasblasters (with sniper rules), stealth, 6+ to hit in close combat, hit and run, +2 strength optional, improved grenades) and you suddenly get a very versatile and adaptable unit that should still feel very coherent and focused.

War Walkers: Good as they are, but move to fast assault. Also, I'd love to see a flamer option, perhaps as an additional chin cannon mounted underneath the cockpit.

Reaper: Simple solution: Crack Shot doubles in price and affects the whole squad. Suddenly these nifty AP3 weapons become viable again, even under 5th Edition cover. No, especially with 5th Edition cover!
I was going to also suggest S6, but the reroll to wound from Crack Shot might make this obsolete. Okay, if you are going to shoot Vehicles, you need more strength, so let's add that.
I'd also love to see Melta Missiles with AP2 and Heavy 1 as a firing option. Those Terminators won't know what hit them!
Regular Plasma Missiles should also be an option, against these pesky horde armies.
With Space Marine Rearguard making multiple ammo a given, how about these firing modes for the Reaper Launcher:
Reaper Missile 48", S5, AP3, Heavy2
Krak Missile 48", S8, AP3, Heavy1
Melta Missile 48", S5, AP2, Heavy1
Plasma Missile 48", S4, AP4, Heavy1, Blast, Pinning

Support Weapons: Removed and repackaged in Defender Guardian Squads.

Wraithlord: See Wraithguard

Fire Prism: Don't know. I had little success running them so far, mostly due to cover. Not sure if that is universal and if so, what could be done about it without changing the game too much.

Falcon: See my suggestions for buffing Bright Lances and Pulse Lasers above. Should make for a superb anti tank gunboat, imo.

Night Spinner: Please include in codex!

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 11:09
Farseers. 3 tiers of Farseer. Young, Old and Eldar. As it gets older it loses its fighting ability but gains power and wisdom. Body becomes harder, granting an increase to toughness and wounds. Introduce the Psyker (Mastery Level #) That GKs are supose to be getting. Young is the only one that can ride a Jet Bike as the others are to frail and old to do so.

I really like this idea. A lot.



Eldar Guardian, 8pts
10-20
18" catapult, defensive grenades as standard.
storm guardian have assault grenades and access to haywire for +1pt
special rule-
WAR CALLS: The Eldar are a race in decline, every loss keenly felt, yet in times of great desperation even the civilian populace will be mobilized to war. These guardians readily face death, fighting alongside their warrior brethren for a future that may never come.
Eldar units within 6" of the guardian squad may reroll failed regroup tests, and may test to regroup even when under half strength or within 6" of enemies.


Also very much like this. Guardians serve to keep the army bolstered by keeping it from breaking, which represents the desperate nature of the battle they must be involved in. Not one they are willing to lose or be beaten back from. And I am also a fan of the Shuricat having an 18" range. 12" seems so...hey, look, we're a dying race, but we love gettin' in yo face, which, well, doesn't feel any kind of right with Guardians.

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 11:17
I don't see how Guardians, the militia of the Craftworld, shall be mentally harder and will be able to withstand and cause the much tougher and mentally more stable Aspect Warriors (the aspects of war and death in person) to not run away.
No, that sounds ridiculous.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 11:29
Not that the Guardians are tougher, but, the fact that they are forced to take to the field of battle shows how serious/desperate the battle may be, which would be reflected by their presence giving extra motivation to the Aspect Warriors. Makes sense to me.

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 12:00
To me it doesn't. If Guardians could stand more horror during a battle without being forced to draw back, they would be used to fight and not those (Aspects) who run away regularly.
Aspects also fight for desperate survival of their race, I don't see why Guardians would be better to mentally hold the line than those that are more trained and prepared for it. It's not as if Aspects would not fight for their race's bitter survival too.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 12:12
The Guardians aren't the ones who are standing more horror or mentally better at holding the line :confused: The whole point is that, if the Aspects are falling back, they get a chance at regrouping. It isn't making Guardians 'harder', it is making the Aspects, via an in-game rule, fight harder, as the battle is desperate and more serious. Otherwise, the Guardians wouldn't have been mobilized in the first place.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 12:12
EDIT: Ninja'd by Lothlanathorian

Read it again: It works the other way around.

Non Guardian units get the rally for being near Guardians (to defend their weaker kin), to represent them standing to protect the Guardians when they would otherwise retreat and run away/scatter.

It's actually an interesting idea which is different to mine which was having Guardian Warlocks Conceal work differently (Night Fighting) to make them hold objectives better for defenders. Adds another dimension to the unit.

RandomThoughts
21-02-2011, 12:16
To me it doesn't. If Guardians could stand more horror during a battle without being forced to draw back, they would be used to fight and not those (Aspects) who run away regularly.
Aspects also fight for desperate survival of their race, I don't see why Guardians would be better to mentally hold the line than those that are more trained and prepared for it. It's not as if Aspects would not fight for their race's bitter survival too.

I think there's a missunderstanding here. The Guardians themselves do not get better morale. The units around them do, because they feel desperation seeing untrained men and women forced into the militia.

The rule proposed above affects OTHER units around the Guardians, not the guardians themselves.

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 12:20
Aha. The way Poseidal expressed it made it clear. So Aspects would rally in order not to let the Guardians alone. That indeed does make more sense, but then should be a special rule for all Aspects, not for Guardian-units, as it causes confusing (as you see). Not the Guardians themselves "imbue" a heroic feeling into Aspects, but the Aspects themselves remember their protecting purpose when they see their brother- and sister-Guardians. That way it makes more sense ;)

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 12:22
Yes, there we go. Poseidal explained it much better. See, I knew it made sense, you should listen to me more often :p

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 12:28
For brevity of writing and the way it the rule it would be measured around Guardians it would save space to put it as a Guardian special rule than to eight distinct codex entries though.

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 12:42
When there's a decision about saving space or making sense, I prefer sense :p
And actually "Power from pain" doesn't take more space in every DE-Codex-entry than this special rule would at every Aspect-entry in CWE-Codex.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 12:44
Well, it would make more sense, though, to give it to Guardians as a Special Rule since it would only apply when they were on the battlefield.

Shamana
21-02-2011, 12:49
BTW, what is with the hoping eldar aspects get maximum sizes of 5? Yeah, they are rare, I get that. So are quite a few other units represented on the board - SM terminators, for example. I'd say it's much better to leave squad sizes fluid - say from 3 to 10 - and let the players adapt as the game develops than shoehorn them into a fixed size that at some point makes the unit hard to use.

Regarding the heavy weapons - please note that even if I don't say it explicitly, I expect pricing to be adjusted to match the weapon's efficiency:

- brightlance - we already have the darklance priced imo fairly decently in the DE codex. Take that, adjust if the BS is different, go with it. Its problem isn't that it's weak per se - it's that in the CE codex it's overpriced, and almost always on a BS3 chassis.

- EML - if you want its to differentiate it from the imperial equivalent, play on the whole "faster to reload" part in its fluff and make it heavy 2, possibly reducing its krak strength to 7. If not, let it cost more. It's supposed to be an elite army, after all.

- Shuriken cannon - it could do with a range increase to 30, but that's not necessary. Possibly give it to vehicles by default, the way IG light vehicles get multilasers and can upgrade from there

- Scatter laser - fine as it is imo.

- Starcannon: heavy 3, please. I'm not keen on making it S5 - it's a plasma weapon, for crying out loud, and the Impys have a S7 plasma rifle. Make it heavy 3, put a cost worth paying on it, profit.

- Pulse lasers - yes, I'd hope to see those kids on more vehicles, at least wraithlords (expecting them on war walkers might be too much). I'd like it if they could introduce "enhanced capacitors" as a purchaseable upgrade to get the PLs lance rule as per the cloudstrike squadron (if you don't shoot them this turn, they are lances on the next one)

- D-cannon - I think seeing that on a wraithlord could be fun, and it could be put on a falcon chassis a la Warp Hunter. Possibly large blast on at least one thing, option for TL. You'd think accuracy would be among the hallmarks of any army of long, pointy-eared humanoids - especially when it comes to opening holes to "hell"...

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 12:53
If I had to change the squad size, I would make it 3-7 for 'normal' aspects like Dire Avengers and Scorpions (due to historical values) but that would require re-working the boxes and not entirely needed IMO.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 12:53
See, I don't get the 'Aspects are rare' thing. This is an Eldar Warhost, Aspects are what it is made up of :confused:

Guardians should be rare.

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 13:01
Well, Lothlanathorian, don't make me cite the Codex :p
Based on the type of Craftworld, the number of Aspects or Guardians will vary massively.

I can't agree to make them 3-7, as 7 is such a low number, that any Eldar player will get out of slots really really fast. We do have that problem already, don't make it worse. The squad-size itself sounds fair at 3-7, but think of the number of slots you are going to waste and re-think that idea or drop it in a trashcan ;)

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 13:02
Swooping Hawks should get back proper bombing. The DE codex has it with the bikes, and I think the Ork Codex has something similar.

Swooping Hawks were the first bomber jump-pack troops when they were released. They should get that back at least.

Bubble Ghost
21-02-2011, 13:15
Swooping Hawks are moderately unusual jump infantry in actually being able to fly, not just jump. I'd be interested to see something where they can use that speed to hassle enemy reserves away from the table - say, for every Hawk unit you have in reserve, you can make one enemy squad re-roll its own reserves test. I doubt it would be make or break for Swooping Hawks in its own right, but screwing with the enemy army rather than just helping your own might be an interesting experiment for reserves shenanigans, that could differentiate other flying units from merely jumping ones.

Shamana
21-02-2011, 13:26
With hawks, I could also imagine pinning enemy formations due to the fire from above as well. I have an idea for 3 "styles" for every aspect, based on derivatives in their aspect totem. For an aspect that deals with mobility and aerial attacks, these can be:

- high-volume, low-strength shots (i.e. assault 3 lasblasters). This is the "Buffeting Wings" style - harassing enemies from afar and distracting them from your main force.
- lower-volume, higher-strength range combats that impose additional penalties (i.e. haywire blasters: pinning, possibly blasts) . This is the "Rending Talons" style - closer-reach debilitating attacks that might not kill enemies outright, but will temporarily neutralize them.
- short-range, powerful attacks (grenade packs or other blast weaponry, possibly plasma/melta weapons or a CC configuration). This is the "Crushing Beak" style, using the hawks' speed to get in close and deliver killing blows.

*: The imagery came from an old eldar tactica guide on Tau Online - way of the falcon, iirc

Kresterz
21-02-2011, 13:48
I constantly hear guardians getting lasblasters...

I don't like the name because it sounds too imperium, so to change that, why not make shuriken catapults the same and then find a suitable upgrade for avengers?

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 14:18
Why do so many Eldar-players ask to NERF the basic iconic weapon (since first edition) of Eldar again and again? Would you ask to nerf a Bolter? If not, why with Shurikens? They got nerfed in the past so badly, it really doesn't need to happen again.

Retribution
21-02-2011, 14:45
Guardians aren't untrained

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 15:05
Yea, we know. However, as this is not the point of the discussion and I don't wanna go too much off-topic, I won't drive it any further.

Gwyidion
21-02-2011, 17:11
Changing the regular shuricat from S4 AP5 R12" Assault 2, to S3 AP5 R24" Assault 2 is not a nerf, it is a huge buff. It goes from a weapon you can never use without sacrificing your squad, to a weapon you can use all the time. I would take that swap every chance i get, and then use farseers to doom targets and rip them to shreds with concentrated fire. As it stands, that is impossible because of how short range the guardians are.

If I thought we could get S4 Ap5 R24 Assault 2, I would go for it, but I doubt we'll get storm bolters with Doom in the codex.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 18:22
Well, Lothlanathorian, don't make me cite the Codex :p
Based on the type of Craftworld, the number of Aspects or Guardians will vary massively.

I can't agree to make them 3-7, as 7 is such a low number, that any Eldar player will get out of slots really really fast. We do have that problem already, don't make it worse. The squad-size itself sounds fair at 3-7, but think of the number of slots you are going to waste and re-think that idea or drop it in a trashcan ;)

See, I know Aspect Warriors aren't super common, fluff-wise, but 40K isn't a trade show, tea time or a walk through the garden. That's what I was meaning. When you put your army on the table it's, well, an army. Limiting Aspects based on their being 'rare' makes as much sense as an IG army being made 10% the size it is because IG only make up 10% of the Imperium's population (not necessarily accurate, but it conveys the thought well enough).

Hendarion
21-02-2011, 20:27
Changing the regular shuricat from S4 AP5 R12" Assault 2, to S3 AP5 R24" Assault 2 is not a nerf, it is a huge buff. It goes from a weapon you can never use without sacrificing your squad, to a weapon you can use all the time. I would take that swap every chance i get, and then use farseers to doom targets
So basically you are saying that S3 still sucks, as you need to sacrifice 1 HQ slot and another 100+ points to make these S3-weapons do something useful.
How is THAT a fix for the Shuriken-problem? It isn't a fix at all. It still would be a lame weapon that needs another 100 points in order to work. Meh.
Seriously, simply fix this catapult instead of just breaking it yet again. Guardians are not Imperial Guard platoons. At least they should not. S3 is the worst idea ever. It doesn't work for Swooping Hawks, it won't work for Guardians either. You can't hurt MEQ, you can't hurt vehicles. Both is incredibly ridiculous at the current state of 40k.
And apart of that, this change would also make a joke of the most iconic Eldar weapon - the Shuriken Catapult. Simply finally fix it for good, 12" is a cruel joke, same is S3. Only horde armies should have S3. And only assault-based or hit&run units should have 12". Guardians are neither the one, nor the other.

Nocculum
21-02-2011, 21:18
I always thought that the range of Shuriken weaponry was low, but reflected the mechanics of the weapon design itself. Firing a disc of metal without explosive percussion will not produce long range propulsion, even when augmented with psionic influence.

STR4 reflects the piercing nature of the razor-edge, and the increased size and capacity of the Avenger catapult is displayed with additional range. There is no way to increase the use of these guns without increasing Assault value. Giving Guardians Assault 2 and Dire Avengers Assault 3 (with the removal of Bladestorm, or the transference of it's effect to rending, a higher AP value and so on) would be the most logical conclusion.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 21:41
I always thought that the range of Shuriken weaponry was low, but reflected the mechanics of the weapon design itself. Firing a disc of metal without explosive percussion will not produce long range propulsion, even when augmented with psionic influence.


I take it you think the Tau Railgun should also have a 12" range?

Understand that the Shuriken Catapult used to have the same range a Storm Bolter, with the same strength and rate of fire. The main difference in the rules was it having better armour penetration than the Storm Bolter.

Bubble Ghost
21-02-2011, 21:46
Never mind the shuriken catapult - you could easily make a case for giving all Aspect Warrior shooting and melee attacks rending, all the time. With a bit of rebalancing elsewhere, it would help out Avengers and Hawks at shooting, Scorpions in melee, and that's about it.

Everywhere else, it would be a bit of martial arts precision for flavour, not enough to make an Aspect good at something it wasn't previously but enough to give them something to do and the opposition something to think about, and to evoke the kind of fighters they're supposed to be; just enough to get them a little more respect. Enough that favouring light armour in exchange for mobility and precision doesn't end up meaning just light armour by the time you get to the tabletop.

You'd need to change death spinners though, imagine the cries of cheese at what would amount to a unit of teleporting assault cannons. Strength 2, Assault 4, ignores cover, maybe. Lasblasters might need toning down too.

Hmmm.

Nocculum
21-02-2011, 22:10
Electromagnetic propulsion and rail technology is not the same as a disc of metal and air :p.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 22:20
Electromagnetic propulsion and rail technology is not the same as a disc of metal and air :p.

Shuriken Catapults were the original Railguns of the setting - made to be a more advanced weapon than a Bolter of Lasgun so available to more high-tech races.

The Shuriken Catapult doesn't use air to shoot, it uses gravitic propulsion the same way as electromagnetic.

And it was longer range in originally and has no fluff change. There is no reason to have it as an unfluffy 12"; 18" is better but 24" is really the most ideal. Points values can be changed so there's no balance issue.

TheLaughingGod
21-02-2011, 22:57
Electromagnetic propulsion and rail technology is not the same as a disc of metal and air :p.

Correct. Electromagnetic railguns should actually be inferior to gravitically accelerated mono-edged razor disks.

Sildani
22-02-2011, 01:06
How about borrowing from the long rifle? On a roll of 6 to hit, the shot counts as AP 2. This represents the hail of monodiscs flying through the air, with the chance of one hitting the target just right - FNP means nothing when the disc gets into the gap between helmet and neck armor and severs your jugular vein. Dire catapults get that on a 5 or 6, representing the idea that, with their heavier barrels, they can fire more at a time, more accurately, meaning more chances to nail the sweet spot. Range for both: 18 inches.

For the cannon, I suggest it get AP 1 on a roll of 6 to hit. It's a big monodisc after all...

TheLaughingGod
22-02-2011, 01:11
How about borrowing from the long rifle? On a roll of 6 to hit, the shot counts as AP 2. This represents the hail of monodiscs flying through the air, with the chance of one hitting the target just right - FNP means nothing when the disc gets into the gap between helmet and neck armor and severs your jugular vein. Dire catapults get that on a 5 or 6, representing the idea that, with their heavier barrels, they can fire more at a time, more accurately, meaning more chances to nail the sweet spot. Range for both: 18 inches.

For the cannon, I suggest it get AP 1 on a roll of 6 to hit. It's a big monodisc after all...

That's actually really cool! Though... that would be like SUPERrending. 4th Ed Super rending.

I'd still want improved range.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-02-2011, 01:24
The shuriken catapult has been the subject of intense debate since the release of 4th ed. I think we accepted the large range reduction between 2nd and 3rd ed because having the ability to move and then shoot twice seemed a reasonable trade off for the loss of the ability to fire once at 24" when stationary. At this time I think there was a fair balance between bolters and shuriken catapults.

The shuriken catapult got well and truly boned when 4th ed was released because now everyone with a rapid fire weapon can move and shoot twice. The only reason I can think of for Phil Kelly only improving the DA catapult is that he was aware of ongoing criticisms that DAs didn't offer enough over Guardians to be worth taking, and hence he wanted to set the two units apart.

I do think that assault 2 24" would be potentially game breaking as it would allow Guardians and Avengers to outrange everything else quite considerably - they would have double the firepower compared to rapid fire units in 12-24" range firefights and if the enemy advances to get into rapid fire range they have to endure several turns of fire with no ability to fire back.

That's why I'm in favour of an increase in range to 18" with Avengers getting an additional ability to give them something over Guardians.

I think that if they changed Avengers as I have suggested (they get 2 ccws and bladestorm simply gives them assault 3, the drawback being that they may not assault the turn they use it) then I think they would be a distinct unit from Guardians and fulfill a different battlefield role.

And to anyone who suggests that DAs with 2 ccws would be overpowered - statistically they will still lose to tacticals in a straight fight (although they would be slightly better against hordes).

insectum7
22-02-2011, 03:08
Seeing as how the Ork Shoota is now Assault 2 18", I can't imagine that the Shuriken Catapult wont have it's range increased.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-02-2011, 04:50
Seeing as how the Ork Shoota is now Assault 2 18", I can't imagine that the Shuriken Catapult wont have it's range increased.

I agree with you but the debate seems to have moved on from 12" vs 18" to 18" vs 24". In my opinion 24" is too much. Maybe DA catapults could be 24" but that gives them a serious range advantage over comparatively priced units.

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 06:47
Up the price. Eldar life isn't cheap, as the fluff goes.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-02-2011, 07:07
I think that Eldar infantry is already expensive when you take its resilience into consideration. I'm not sure I want to pay much more than 12pts for my T3, 4+ save infantry.

As you increase points you effectively decrease resilience as you lose wounds on the table.

insectum7
22-02-2011, 07:08
I agree with you but the debate seems to have moved on from 12" vs 18" to 18" vs 24". In my opinion 24" is too much. Maybe DA catapults could be 24" but that gives them a serious range advantage over comparatively priced units.

Yeah... although Shuriken Catapults were essentially Storm Bolters in 2nd edition, I don't think they should have the same range currently. I think this for two reasons;

1: It would radically change the balance of infantry power, 24" range on basic infantry is huuge.

2: It would pull apart the deployment (not deployment phase, but actual battlefield position throughout the game) of Guardians and Aspect Warriors. Essentially, I like to see them working in proximity with one another. I feel like a 24" range to the Catapults would push them further away from their bretheren.

I'm not totally against the idea, and if GW decided that 24" was going to be the way of the Shuriken Catapult I'd be ok with it. I just wouldn't argue for it. Id rather see Guardians become a tad more resilient (though not 4+ armor) and be able to operate "just out of reach" of the enemy.

For resiliency, I think boosting Conceal to be a 4+ would be about perfect. Guardians would then have a 4++ against shooting, but a 5+ in CC.

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 07:18
I regularly suggest to use a mechanic from another source. I guess most of you know Dawn of War II. Eldar Guardians could create some device which creates a protective shield. Imo that is pretty cool too, just makes them static instead of mobile, which is questionable if it fits the Eldar or not.

insectum7
22-02-2011, 07:32
Yeah I've seen you mention it. I'm just not big on the idea of "static" Eldar. They're fleet, they've got assault weapons, they've got a heavy weapon that can move and fire... it feels inappropriate to me.

I think it looks cool in DOW though, and it does make sense when Eldar have to defend positions from time to time. But I think most peoples problem with Guardians currently is that they aren't both mobile and more resilient at the same time. I genuinely feel like players want their guardians to be more capable of kiting effectively.

You know I just had a thought about Fleet. What if it allowed a "Run" move in the Assault Phase, possibly as long as you didn't run in the shooting phase. So Fleet would allow you both the option of Assaulting after Running, or Running after Shooting. Even if it's only a D3, that could make Guardians real frustrating in a firefight.

As a Marine player I really like that actually, and combined with the Conceal of 4+. It would make firefights and closing with Guardians way more frustrating, but once you got to close quarters with flamers (ignoring cover and enough to pass their 5+ natural armor) and assaults the guardians get pulped. I think that's where the balance of Guardian/Marine should be.

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 07:38
Yea, you sum up my doubts pretty well. I also doubt though that D3 will be really helpful. It will allow Guardians to stay out of close combat (with a good amount of luck and hell of an eye to guess ranges), but it won't make them more resilent, as not only CC is an issue, but also any kind of rapid-fire basically wipes them off the table easily.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-02-2011, 07:38
Yeah... although Shuriken Catapults were essentially Storm Bolters in 2nd edition, I don't think they should have the same range currently. I think this for two reasons;

1: It would radically change the balance of infantry power, 24" range on basic infantry is huuge.

2: It would pull apart the deployment (not deployment phase, but actual battlefield position throughout the game) of Guardians and Aspect Warriors. Essentially, I like to see them working in proximity with one another. I feel like a 24" range to the Catapults would push them further away from their bretheren.

I'm not totally against the idea, and if GW decided that 24" was going to be the way of the Shuriken Catapult I'd be ok with it. I just wouldn't argue for it. Id rather see Guardians become a tad more resilient (though not 4+ armor) and be able to operate "just out of reach" of the enemy.

For resiliency, I think boosting Conceal to be a 4+ would be about perfect. Guardians would then have a 4++ against shooting, but a 5+ in CC.

I think you're spot on and I think you have set out the reasons that 24" range on shuricats would have quite large implications for the current game balance. 24" also lets you shoots and stay out of range of jump infantry.

I can't say I'm too hurt that the shuriken catapult is now worse than a stormbolter - it's not as if it's a common weapon as it's only normally carried by characters/squad leaders and SM's elite heavy infantry. It should be at least as powerful as a bolter though (I consider assault 2 18" to be on a par with 24" rapid fire).


I regularly suggest to use a mechanic from another source. I guess most of you know Dawn of War II. Eldar Guardians could create some device which creates a protective shield. Imo that is pretty cool too, just makes them static instead of mobile, which is questionable if it fits the Eldar or not.

I've often pondered why Eldar don't make greater use of energy fields to protect infantry. Shield generators mounted on grav platforms as an alternative to heavy weapons perhaps?

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 07:40
Hmm, I really like the idea of shield generators on platforms instead of weapons mounted on them. Heavy weapons after all are the role of the support platforms or various walkers. An optional, movable shield-platform sounds pretty cool without messing with the Guardian armour and without making a Warlock mandatory (and without forcing him to always use the same power).

Shamana
22-02-2011, 07:40
Well, if you consider the shield cover to hide behind, they can kind of do it now with a conceal warlock. However, I'm not too keen on how it works out nowadays - I'd prefer it if the warlock gave the unit Stealth, with a 6+ cover (so basically the current 5+) even if they are in the open. If you can get them in actual cover, so much the better.

Overall, I don't realistically expect guardian catapults to be over 18 inches, but I consider that quite decent already. If you want it buffed more, consider making it rending (after all, the one of the rulebook examples is "hail of shots" which more or less sums up shuriken fire), but I'm kinda wary giving that to a general infantry. It could certainly work out for avengers, helping them establish a "jack of all trades" status when it comes to shooting.

@ Insectrum - I suggested something like that (run 1d3 after shooting, 1d6 with the right autarch ability, although allowing assault afterwards) some time ago. I think it certainly can work, and a similar mechanic was introduced for other armies (IG and Tyrannids, I believe).

Hellebore
22-02-2011, 07:42
You know I just had a thought about Fleet. What if it allowed a "Run" move in the Assault Phase, possibly as long as you didn't run in the shooting phase. So Fleet would allow you both the option of Assaulting after Running, or Running after Shooting. Even if it's only a D3, that could make Guardians real frustrating in a firefight.

As a Marine player I really like that actually, and combined with the Conceal of 4+. It would make firefights and closing with Guardians way more frustrating, but once you got to close quarters with flamers (ignoring cover and enough to pass their 5+ natural armor) and assaults the guardians get pulped. I think that's where the balance of Guardian/Marine should be.



Unfortunately it wouldn't with the current weapon range.

I've seen the argument for giving more speed to guardians as a way to maintain their illogically short range, but if you run the numbers it doesn't change anything.

A bolter/lasgun has a 24" range. In order to get into shuriken catapult range you have to get into bolter rapid fire range. If the eldar could move after shooting, they'd have to move 7"+ in order to be out of their opponent's rapid fire range.

Move to 12", shoot. Move 6" away from enemy, now 18" away. Enemy moves 6" and rapid fires. Moving at oblique angles wouldn't change this.

Thus, the only way for movement to be of any actual advantage it would have to be 7" or more, otherwise it produces no effect at all except the image of eldar having to run suicidally close to the enemy because they deliberately equipped themselves with short ranged guns and then trying to run away to avoid return fire but failing completely.

As moving away still produces exactly the same effect as staying still, the move would need to be substantial for it to be worth it.

Hellebore

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 07:42
Conceal has two issues:
1) You need a warlock for something that the Guardians should be able to themselves
2) You have no other choice for the Warlock's power than Conceal

Edit:
Absolutely agree with Hellebore. He exactly describes the same issue I see with the additional move. It's nice, but doesn't change anything. Guardians will still die, as they can't escape rapid-fire-range with that move either. And it's kinda dumb if you consider they first run close, then shoot and then run away again. Simply give them guns with better range in the first place. Makes more sense and actually does work.

Hellebore
22-02-2011, 07:45
3) Conceal is completely at odds with the ethos of the warlock in the first place. It is a defensive ability whilst a warlock specialises in offensive psychic ability.

If it was a different type of psyker, a seer, bonesinger, fleshsinger, Isha's Handmaiden blah blah, then it wouldn't be an issue. But warlocks have never been described as defensive psykers.

Hellebore

insectum7
22-02-2011, 07:51
Unfortunately it wouldn't with the current weapon range.


No no, you have to combine it with my earlier post where I granted a range of 18" on the Catapults.

To summarize:

18" Catapults
4+ Conceal
Fleet allows a Run after shooting (possibly just a D3)

= Insectum7's idea of Guardian perfection. (or something)



3) Conceal is completely at odds with the ethos of the warlock in the first place. It is a defensive ability whilst a warlock specialises in offensive psychic ability.

If it was a different type of psyker, a seer, bonesinger, fleshsinger, Isha's Handmaiden blah blah, then it wouldn't be an issue. But warlocks have never been described as defensive psykers.

Hellebore

Give em the ability to take 2 powers. But only one "passive" power can be active at a time. Actually, probably just one power (since casting a second power while one is already active seems a bit off). So the Warlock protects the guardians for their skirmisher-firefights, then buffs them/himself/uses Destructor when it's time to take it home.

It makes the Guardians a great little multi-role unit, but still fragile if caught on the wrong foot.

MOMUS
22-02-2011, 09:06
How about some of the current weapons being available on different platforms, such as prism cannon support weapon battery or wraithlords carrying prism cannons? Maybe vibro cannon mounted on a falcon (perhaps with transport gone).





Oh and lasblasters, lasblasters for all!

Shamana
22-02-2011, 09:18
Actually, aren't warlocks simply seers with experience as former aspect warriors? I'm not sure where the "they only use offensive powers" thing comes from. Their powers tend to be ones with direct military application, but stealth is quite useful in war. A power like conceal seems natural for, say, a former scorpion turned seer.

Nocculum
22-02-2011, 09:23
I would very much like to see Warlocks become a 1-3 elite or HQ slot Independant Character, much like Sanguinary Priests.

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 09:27
For what exactly? I don't see the use of buying 3 Warlocks as an elite choice or wasting a HQ-slot for 'em. They got only 1 wound each after all.

Nocculum
22-02-2011, 09:35
The ability to move that Conceal or Embolden around the battlefield, assuming they retain those powers in their current form, would be a very big boost and hopefully, a shift away from the focus on Seer councils and similar weighted units.

It would also allow the movement of Warlocks between Aspect warrior units, and with a reduction or boost to the Autarch, more flexibility and variation in Eldar lists.

That said, if they gave the Autarch a free power weapon and made the Scorpion Chainsword a simple +1 strength in addition (perhaps something with a different name) then we'd see more 80 point reserve HQ lists without much upheaval.

Shamana
22-02-2011, 10:59
I would very much like to see Warlocks become a 1-3 elite or HQ slot Independant Character, much like Sanguinary Priests.

Or a bigger team, like the wolf guard. Perhaps we could just buy "seers" and upgrade them to warlocks, bonesingers, spiritseers or what have you, giving them stat buffs (i.e. WS, I for warlocks, higher armor for bonesingers) and access to additional abilities.

Sildani
22-02-2011, 11:17
That's actually really cool! Though... that would be like SUPERrending. 4th Ed Super rending.

I'd still want improved range.

Not quite. No auto-wounds, just a chance to ignore armor saves and FNP.

You have increased range in my solution, just not for the cannon. I'm a firm believer in shorter ranges for Eldar guns than their Imperial equivalents, so long as LETHALITY is superior to same.

That said, a 12" catapult is a joke. I can honestly see what the design team was thinking - you have a trained civilian, not a full-time soldier, so you give her a gun that can put out a lot of shots at once to make up for his inaccuracy - a submachine gun, if you will. Usually, such guns don't have much to offer in the way of range - consider the Uzi, TEC-9, or the venerable Sten.

I've no doubt you're supposed to park your Guardians in cover, take potshots with the heavy gun, and force your opponent to dedicate an assault unit to charge in and take them down where the 12" catapult might come into play. That almost never happens though, since that squad is large and difficult to hide, the heavy gun is pretty much just a nuisance with BS3, and most opponents are content to simply blast the Guardians apart at range.

You want to know why I think Guardians even exist in their current form? They're a static unit in a mobile army, put there to cater to the player who likes the Eldar asthetic and who also wants a stand-n-shoot gunline. I believe that they do exist - new players, or Marine or IG types looking for something different yet still familiar. I could, of course, not know what I'm talking about.

Anyway! No auto-wounds and 18" range on all shuricats, that was my point!

Spell_of_Destruction
22-02-2011, 22:16
That said, a 12" catapult is a joke. I can honestly see what the design team was thinking - you have a trained civilian, not a full-time soldier, so you give her a gun that can put out a lot of shots at once to make up for his inaccuracy - a submachine gun, if you will. Usually, such guns don't have much to offer in the way of range - consider the Uzi, TEC-9, or the venerable Sten.



Like I said earlier, I think that it's a 3rd ed concept that somehow survived the 4th ed codex (probably due to a desire to differentiate Guardians and DAs) and now survives into 5th ed.

It made a lot more sense in 3rd ed when large blocks of advancing footslogging infantry were a good idea due to screening and rapid fire weapons could only fire once at 12" after moving. Guardians may be useless now but they were quite effective in 3rd edition.

TheLaughingGod
23-02-2011, 01:46
You have increased range in my solution, just not for the cannon. I'm a firm believer in shorter ranges for Eldar guns than their Imperial equivalents, so long as LETHALITY is superior to same.
As Hellebore pointed out, superior speed is negated by shorter ranges, thus crippling the whole army design with a one step forward one step backwards design ethos that needs to go.



That said, a 12" catapult is a joke. I can honestly see what the design team was thinking - you have a trained civilian, not a full-time soldier, so you give her a gun that can put out a lot of shots at once to make up for his inaccuracy - a submachine gun, if you will. Usually, such guns don't have much to offer in the way of range - consider the Uzi, TEC-9, or the venerable Sten.
It kind of makes sense. Except that in the real world, you give your basic grunt a rifle with a lot of range, not an SMG. That's what special forces gets.
Also, Guardians are NOT just trained civilians. They are still soldiers and are the equivelent at least of a fully trained human Guardsman.



I've no doubt you're supposed to park your Guardians in cover, take potshots with the heavy gun, and force your opponent to dedicate an assault unit to charge in and take them down where the 12" catapult might come into play. That almost never happens though, since that squad is large and difficult to hide, the heavy gun is pretty much just a nuisance with BS3, and most opponents are content to simply blast the Guardians apart at range. Sadly true.



You want to know why I think Guardians even exist in their current form? They're a static unit in a mobile army, put there to cater to the player who likes the Eldar asthetic and who also wants a stand-n-shoot gunline. I believe that they do exist - new players, or Marine or IG types looking for something different yet still familiar. I could, of course, not know what I'm talking about.
No, you're probably right. That kind of staticness should not exist in the army at all. It's just a liability and it doesn't work well with the rest of the list.

Sildani
23-02-2011, 02:46
As Hellebore pointed out, superior speed is negated by shorter ranges, thus crippling the whole army design with a one step forward one step backwards design ethos that needs to go.

So if we have long-range guns on fast vehicles such that we can minimize the amount of return fire we get, just what is supposed to be our weakness? Fragility means nothing if the opponent can't come to grips with us in the first place, and would be neither fun to play with or against.

Spell_of_Destruction
23-02-2011, 02:52
OK, we seem to have discussed the shuriken catapult to death. What about another unit with rules that have not fared well in 5th ed - the Falcon Grav Tank.

I still see them used fairly often but almost exclusively with a DAVU.

Part of the problem is that they now fill a middle ground between the Fire Prism gunship and the Wave Serpent transport. It's not especially good at either. The reason it works so well with a DAVU is that you don't need to fully utilise the transport capacity and a Falcon with holo-fields is still one of the hardest vehciles in the game.

I think they need a bit of a firepower boost - I'd simply make the pulse laser a heavy 3 brightlance (maybe stick with heavy 2 if all Eldar vehciles get BS4) to give it some respectable anti tank capability. I'd also reintroduce the Crystal Targetting matrix but with new rules that allow vehicles to fire all weapons at crusing speed.

TheLaughingGod
23-02-2011, 03:04
So if we have long-range guns on fast vehicles such that we can minimize the amount of return fire we get, just what is supposed to be our weakness? Fragility means nothing if the opponent can't come to grips with us in the first place, and would be neither fun to play with or against.

That's kind of the point, Sildani. If we have speed as a trade off for protection, it has to actually mean something. Short ranged weapons negate the speed, so we just have... nothing in place of less protection.

So you're saying that we should just have crappy weapons AND crappy armor... and that's it? What's our strength supposed to be again?

wolvychops
23-02-2011, 03:05
so it seems that this 'Wish List' has turned more into a problem solving thread, but I'll throw my two cents in just for fun.

My idea would be to leave everythign the same, but give them some better Army Wide special rules. much like Decent of Angels or the Combat Drugs of the Dark Eldar. Something like an Always strikes first in close combat like fantasy elves, or always gets to go first on turn one, or deploy after their opponent.
This would buff up the entire army without a major stats retooling, giving tehm a bit more unique way of playing, yet still keeping ther fragility.

As for the wish listing, I want them to get back to the true psychic masters they used to be! They shouldn't even have to think about pearls of the warp, and they should have psychic attacks and powers that take up two to three pages of the book.

New units would be cool, but I think more psychic abilities and some army wide rules, it could really fix update them nicely without to much fuss.

anywho, taht's my two cents
P.S.= squadrons of Falcons would be nice

TheLaughingGod
23-02-2011, 03:09
As for the wish listing, I want them to get back to the true psychic masters they used to be! They shouldn't even have to think about pearls of the warp, and they should have psychic attacks and powers that take up two to three pages of the book.


Except Eldar fear Perils more than anyone...

Spell_of_Destruction
23-02-2011, 03:54
so it seems that this 'Wish List' has turned more into a problem solving thread, but I'll throw my two cents in just for fun.

It's all wishlisting of a sort - we are voicing our perceived issues with the current codex and expressing our wishes regarding how those issues should be fixed :)

I'm not especially keen on army wide rules but saying that I think that Power from Pain was pretty well executed. I can't really envisage an army wide rule for Craftworld Eldar though. Perhaps a rule that allows all infantry to take objectives (the current scenario rules suggest that the Swordwind could never win a battle).

I'll probably be hung, drawn and quartered for this but I'd like to see a return of Craftworld specific FOCs (hears collective groan). I miss my 3rd/4th ed Swordwind army dearly.

I'm not sure that I'd expand on the existing Farseer powers greatly. Farseers have never been the sort of psykers to unleash devastating powers on the enemy. Rather, a Farseer is th unseen hand which tips the tide of the battle. I'd like to see them have a greater influence on the battle with the option to take use up to three powers per turn a la Eldrad.

wolvychops
23-02-2011, 04:02
Except Eldar fear Perils more than anyone...

too true. maybe 'not worrying about it would be wrong', but at least show a bit more class. If you had 1000's of years to practice psychic powers and staying warp free, then you would think that it wouldn't be such a problem all the time.

Fear is one thing, but at least make it a sliding scale or something. Like some of the higher powered psychic attacks would have a high chance of failing the pearls test, but others should be simple, almost every day, second nature things that a farseer would never mess up.

really pearls isn't the issue, its the fact that there are only 4 powers, none of which are truly amazing (though Doom can wreak shop). Im hoping the Codex creep will bring good things to teh eldar with some more powers that can really scare people.

But really its the army wide special rules that can be the game changer. Maybe even some special characters that change the FOC or can add a new dimension to the force. Having the Avatar boost everyone's stats would be sweet, or giving them some sort of fearless without the distance restriction.

Im just saying its not all about weapon and troop stats. We can make Eldar better with other cool tweaks to the army as a whole, rather than just a brighter brightlance, or a scattier scatter laser.

Dwane Diblie
23-02-2011, 05:08
Shining Spears
Laser/Star Lance: On the charge S6/8 Power Weapon that forces a reroll on successful invulnerable saves. Range attack as now but AP3 or 2.
Skilled rider base.
Better Warrior powers for the exarch.

Too much? I originaly went with compleatly ignoring invulnerable saves and thought way too much.

Oh and they use to have laser lance and laspistol, so I have no giving them back a pistol next time round. Would make alll the differance.

Hendarion
23-02-2011, 06:07
Oh and they use to have laser lance and laspistol, so I have no giving them back a pistol next time round. Would make alll the differance.
Why exactly would it make all the difference? Now they do not have pistols. When they had pistols, that's been in 2nd Edition and close combat worked entirely different back then. No way to compare it to the current system.
But yea, they won't get back pistols.

Nocculum
23-02-2011, 06:59
Perhaps Farseers should get one static power and then the two standard active ones, so a choice from X that's always active, there 'battle' control, and then Doom etc as normal.

Spell_of_Destruction
23-02-2011, 07:02
Perhaps Farseers should get one static power and then the two standard active ones, so a choice from X that's always active, there 'battle' control, and then Doom etc as normal.

I'd like that - Farseer powers which give the Eldar player some prior advantage. There's a precedent with Eldrad's redployment rules.

Makes perfect sense as the Farseers will use divination before the battle as well as during it to give the Eldar the greatest possible advantage.

Basically, I think that all Farseers should be brought closer to Eldrad's power level or for that to at least be an option. Currently every tourney list seems to contain Eldrad. Farseers are clearly not combat monsters like some armies' HQ choices but you should be able to pay as much for them to have a similar level of impact on the battle (albeit by different means).

SgtTaters
23-02-2011, 07:29
Ranger- 19pts
same stats, except...
longrifle: rends on a 5+


Pathfinder- ELITES CHOICE
0-5 pathfinders 30pts
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
3 5 3 3 1 5 1 10 5+
custom longrifle, shuriken pistol, defensive grenades

Eternal Wanderer- has infiltrate, ignores difficult terrain for movement, stealth(+2), 5+ cover save in the open.

Custom Longrifle- rends on a 4+
--------

Wraithguard
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
4 4 5 6 1 4 2 10 3+ (4+FNP)
fearless, wraithsight
wraithcannon: 18"

Wraithlord 130pts
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
4 4 10 8 3 4 2(3) 10 3+(4+FNP)
fleet, monstrous creature, fearless, wraithsight

has 2 wraithfists (contain flamers or shurikats)
may trade one fist for...
-heavy weapon
-wraithshield (4+ inv sv), but you lose the +1 attack
*wraithsword has no special rules, just a cosmetic choice

may take one additional (back mounted)
- heavy weapon
- warblade, +1 attack (so you can have a Towering Destroyer style wraithlord)
- Psychic Tower- wraithlord is a psyker, (it also eliminates wraithsight for itself and others nearby). Haven't thought about psychic powers though, maybe deserves its own set, and then being a wishlist seers and warlocks would be getting new powers too.

----

Poseidal
23-02-2011, 07:49
For the name of a fist weapon for Wraithlords, I though the name 'Ghost Hand' might sound cool.

Lothlanathorian
23-02-2011, 07:59
For the name of a fist weapon for Wraithlords, I though the name 'Ghost Hand' might sound cool.

Sounds cool, but is too passive.

Hendarion
23-02-2011, 08:00
Simply call it Dreadnought close combat weapon or Power Fist. ;)
Or do not name it at all, the thing is a monstrous creature after all and do we really need a special name for everything?

Poseidal
23-02-2011, 08:09
I had the big-fist do something different to the sword or small-fist Wraithlords, so I had to give it a name.

Power-fist wouldn't work in the way it functions and Dreadnaught CCW doesn't make any sense on a non-vehicle statline.

Shamana
23-02-2011, 11:51
Actually, I'm hoping for multi-wound wraithguard, perhaps T5 W2. I don't want them instakilled by a melta, but I think it makes a decent tradeoff. In points, size etc they are not incomparable to Ogryns or Grotesques, and the wraithbone they are made of is supposed to be as tough as anything - so more than 1 wound is imo quite acceptable.

Hendarion
23-02-2011, 12:24
Well, I assume something like that will happen anyway, judging by the latest Codex releases.

Lukasz_VT
23-02-2011, 12:41
I'd like to see:

Purchasable vehicle upgrade to make BS4.

Points decrease for most units (guardians around 6points or same with 18" range shuricat). Dragons can stay as they are.

Reapers need help in all regards (rules and I think we need new models).

Avatar needs +1 S and T. I'd also give him a close range anti-horde option: either a heavy flamer ability in the wailing doom (instead of firing as meltagun) OR a CC ability like Yriel, that places a S5 AP4-5 large blast down centred on the Avatar, in lieu of his normal attacks. He has this kind of ability in the DoW2 games, and I think it would be a great addition.

I like the idea of his inspiring presence confering FC - that would be the boost that scorps and banshees need.

Grenades! For goodness sakes, why are the Eldar so short on grenades?! They should be purchaseable (or standard) for Avengers, storm guardians, shining spears and warp spiders (at least). Heywire and plasma please. If the DE get heywire grenades from their local corner shop, so should we :D

Weapons tweaks, though nothing as drastic as I read in a few posts. Make the costs more in line with equivolents in other armies and definately sort out bright lances.

Love the idea of an option to give storm guardians 4+ AS.

Hawks should be able to make more use of their grenade packs, e.g. by flying over units as suggested - something akin to deathkopta bombs.

Exarchs should be increased in power and cost. I really don't like the idea someone posted about making them the same stats as their aspect + some upgrade options. These guys are not mere squad leaders, they are supposed to be the epitome of their aspect. Make them kroot shaper-esque with e.g. 2W.

Autarch does not need a WS/BS reduction, they are meant to be awesome.

We need a big buff to our psychic powers, which are supposed to be our thing. We need some more destructive offensive powers (S5 eldritch storm? Something like the librian avenger power to roast marines would be good) and options for wargear that extend the range, e.g. 12" for guide/fortune. Making guide work for CC attacks would make it much more useful.

Allowing warlocks to join aspect squads would be nice (enhance would go a long way here).

We need less competition in the HS slots - adding in a reliably useful FA unit (hornets?) would work.

I LOVE the look of the new FW stuff, but I think the rules need to be thought out in the context of the codex - e.g. I don't see shadow spectres as being viable, but the models and feel are drop dead gorgeous :D

Sildani
23-02-2011, 13:42
That's kind of the point, Sildani. If we have speed as a trade off for protection, it has to actually mean something. Short ranged weapons negate the speed, so we just have... nothing in place of less protection.

So you're saying that we should just have crappy weapons AND crappy armor... and that's it? What's our strength supposed to be again?

What's our weakness supposed to be, when we can stay out of range of retribution while still firing our guns to full effect? How would you balance this out, bearing in mind we can't be as fragile as Dark Eldar?

Poseidal
23-02-2011, 13:44
Bad numbers without exceptional armour.

Hellebore
23-02-2011, 14:13
Warlocks and Autarchs should be like guard advisors, 0-3 from the HQ section but don't count as a choice. Warlocks should be better, Autarch's stats worse but rules better.

Guardians get better, get a path of command guy to lead their squads (those before they've become Autarchs), exarchs become the sublime warriors of their path like they should be.

If people don't like the idea of guardians with 4+ armour and aspects with 3+, then leave the current saves as they are except Eldar Armour is so advanced it is only ignored by AP that is LOWER than the save value. Thus although Guardians have a 5+ save, it's only ignored by AP4 or less. Dire Avenger armour is only ignored by AP3 or less etc.

It has a nonlinear benefit - the better the armour, the fewer weapons it will save against. The most useful armours would be 4+ and 5+ as they have the most weapons that ignore them.

The above brings eldar armour to a point similar to 2nd ed, where guardians had better armour and also reflects their superior technology. I'd prefer 4+ guardians, 3+ aspects (which is already an army you can build now, all dire avengers, scorpions, warp spiders and dark reapers gives you an entire army of 4+ and 3+ saves), but this is a compromise.

Hellebore

Gwyidion
23-02-2011, 18:22
Psykers - fortune and doom are two of the best powers in the game, hands down. They are limited by their range, and attenuated by anti-psyker abilities of other armies. To buff eldar psykers, it is really the limitations that should be mitigated, rather than the powers change. Further, the number of powers per turn should exceed all other codicies, and the points/power should have a better ratio than all other codicies.

I still support the "mind war" effect (opposed leadership, with opposing psyker taking the difference in armor & cover denying wounds if he loses) triggering off of every pysker power nullification attempt.

In the armor saves department, I feel it should be:

2+ for the 'heavy aspects' (scorpions,fire dragons,reapers,warp spiders)
3+ for the 'normal aspects' (banshees,hawks,DAs)
Spears are a class to themselves because of jetbikes.
4+ for guardians, rangers, etc.

They're still T3, they'll never be truly hard to kill, but it improves their durability considerably.

On the wraithguard front, T6 1 W 3+ 4+FNP doesn't change anything with them. They're still basically immune to shooting, and disappear to power weapons in close combat. The basic problem with wraithguard isn't their toughness, its their offensive punch. They have amazing weapons they hardly ever get to use because most CC squads have a delivery method with 18" or greater range. The only solutions to that are to A) buff the wraithcannon's range to >=18", or B) give the wraithguard more punch in CC.

Wraithlords - same thing, 3+ 4+FNP is useless against everything except for krak missles. Everything else completely ignores both saves (ap2, rending, powerfists). The wraithlord's problem is poor ranged firepower and poor close combat power. The solution I see is decreased pt costs, duplicate weapons allowed, and +1 A.

Kresterz
23-02-2011, 18:25
I think we all want MORE PLASTIC!!! And fix Dark reapers with either better BS or an exarch skill to make it better BS and to ignore cover and even possibly invul saves as well

Hawks can get grenade fly bombers and possibly better weapons like snipers, AP5, pinning and possibly rending? Strength 4/5, changed name of rifle.

Give us a new troop choice?

Shamana
23-02-2011, 18:40
With reapers, imo 35 points will always be a LOT for a T3 3+ unit. Even if their standard weapon became better (i.e. higher S, lower AP for a starcannon-ish blaster), they would still be quite vulnerable. As it is, they basically have the price of long fangs with plasma cannon - and are a lot squishier, not to mention not having the plethora of special rules and gear the Pups have. For 35 points, a T3 3+ unit has to have an impressive offensive potential and some tricks to enhance their survivability - and reapers, at the moment, don't. In general, I support the idea of giving all aspects +1 WS or BS in their field of choice (maybe -1 to the other, although that makes little sense for avengers or spiders) to represent intense training in a specific style and to enforce the elite specialization theme of the army. The Incubi already got that, so here's hoping...

Actually, I wouldn't actually mind seeing reapers as a devastator unit of sorts - their aspect involves killing from afar, which doesn't exactly limit your choice of (ranged) weapon all that much. They could have a cost of, say, 20 pts if armed with shuriken cannons, 25-30 for EMLs and 30-35 with starcannons (especially if they are heavy 3). We could have different names for the "styles" they represent - Ulutha Vel, Syolkiir-Aarn and Uskech'shal, for example.

Col. Tartleton
23-02-2011, 19:06
Idea: Generic Pheonix Lords

Rather than "Maugan Ra" as a special character, have Dark Reaper Pheonix Lord as an HQ option. Have a PL for each Aspect as a HQ slot who can take a highly customizable Exarch Retinue. Change the fluff so that "As Craftworld Aspect Shrines may only ever have one Master, many of those who abandon the Paths and become Exarchs themselves only to abandon their craftworld and tread the dark passages of the Webway. These forsaken warriors are called the Asuryata after Asurmen the first Aspect Warrior. Over the millenia those few who endure form small bands of their Aspect led by the greatest among them. Each warrior having honed their skills to preternatural levels rivaling or even surpassing those of the traditional Exarch Masters of the Craftworlds. Their names have become things of legend and their arrival is taken as a sign of great danger for their people.

Then have "Dire Avenger Pheonix Lord" as some crazy lethal guy with exotic kit and an optional bunch of Dire Avenger Exarchs holding him down. In the fluff talk about the exploits of Asurmen and the numerous Exarchs of his School who have followed in his example.

That way Special Characters can be more like Yriel and the Eldrad Ulthran and such and give more character to the Eldar race as a whole (such as pirates and what not) and not just flesh out the temples.

Shamana
23-02-2011, 19:24
Eh, I'm not sure I quite get what you mean - they are already pretty generic mechanically, and imo it's not a great benefit to them flabour-wise. If anything, I'd say their fluff should be expanded. They already have done a lot that relates to the race as a whole, not just by establishing the temples that defined 50+% of the eldar way of war and fighting a behemukaton of battles, but by being living incarnations of a war mythos all Eldar tap into. You just need to expand (or reform) their fluff a bit. The likes of Asurmen, Karandhras or Maugy (Sue) are imo a whole lot more defining of the race than Yriel or Eldrad.

Kresterz
23-02-2011, 19:28
CAn wealso focus on making new unitsfor eldar corsairs>

I regret the coming of corsairs as that will overshadow my eldar (first army too)

BUt I think we need better shadowspectres!!!

Eldar pirate: WS 4 BS 4 T 4 W1 I 5 A1 Sv 4/5+ since they have to scrap for armour?

Col. Tartleton
23-02-2011, 19:42
Well there should be some kind of generic Exarch HQs and both Exarch HQs and Pheonix Lords is what... like 30 HQ slots. :p

There are a lot of cool Special Characters who exemplify their Craftworlds who would be better for "Special Characters" while changing Pheonix Lords to something more usable. If the Sword Wind deploys you might have an all Fire Dragon task force led by an Exarch Lord which would work well as a generic Pheonix Lord if not Feugan, and Feugan would work well as a generic Pheonix Lord. Basically the Pheonix Lord would be a Maugan Ra but he wouldn't be THE MAUGAN RA! He's an ancient Dark Reaper Exarch Commander of mystery. But he's not automatically the guy who sailed into the Eye of Terror and dragged out a Craftworld... But he could be if you want him.

Anyhow for my Special Character List:

Nuadhu Fireheart: Vyper HQ: Hero of Saim Hann
Farseer Kelmon: Wraithlord Farseer HQ: Leader of Iyanden
Iyanna Arienal and [Insert Name]: Spiritseer and Wraithlord HQ: Seer with Wraithlord-Exarch Bodyguard
Prince Yriel: Pirate Lord HQ: Leader of Eldritch Raiders
Eldrad Ulthran: Farseer HQ: Leader of Ulthwe
Duke Avele Swifteye: Corsair Lord HQ: Biel Tan Privateer
[Insert Name]: Outcast Lord HQ: Alaitoc Ranger Commander

archont
23-02-2011, 20:51
Personally...

Probably extend some psipowers-ranges, but apart from that?

Make Serpents some 20pts cheaper

Do not play with stats, don't change everything

Instead allow for leaders on the path of the warrior to give one of either ws/bs/i to members of their aspect (for autarchs: any aspect, for warlocks to guardians etc)

Make it so that an aspect-unit is moved to troops and made scoring ONLY if led by their PhoenixLord (move DireAvengers to FastAttack for example)

Make it that Units led by an autarch remain in their FOC but are counted as scoring as long as the autarch lives

Done. (Probably, bring back CrystalTargeting)


Edit: Probably either drop PhoenixLords in Cost, or give all of them an invulnerable save)

Shamana
23-02-2011, 21:32
Ok, to summarize some stuff I've been throwing around:

Army rule: eldar mobility. All infantry can move 1d3 after shooting or fleet n the shooting phase.

Overall theme: elite, specialized, and fast. I'd say look at the HE from WFB and the DE - but while the DE get more numbers on their side (via lower costs), the CE go for quality.

Avatar: S/T boost nice, though not necessary. Should offer additional bonuses to (nearby) aspects, i.e. furious charge (it's their freaking GOD, and eldar are nothing if not psychosensitive) / reroll to-hit rolls, exarchs can get extra (i.e. FnP); FNP may be a purchaseable upgrade aura. Wailing doom can be fired as a flamer (S5, AP3 for example). Cost possibly increased. (FC aura inspired from Court of the Young King Apoc sheet)

Farseer: especially if eldrad is gone, have the option for a venerable farseer (+1 T, -1 I, extra power/turn). Please make them have 2 attacks, right now iirc they are the ONLY generic HQ (Eldrad and Aun'va are the SCs) with 1 base attack. Make the witchblade an upgrade if you wish. Ideally have options to reflect pre-farseer background: warlock for better combat, bonesinger for techmarine-like abilities, runecaster for pseudo-divination (it's their shtick, yet right now Tigurius is better at it)

Autarch: same or slightly higher stats (archons get their jobs by being sneaky bastards, these guys have to bust their space elf behinds in every aspect shrine they can find), more wargear options. Have a list of purchaseable abilities to represent their strategic acumen, such as (apart from their current reserve bonus): bonus to fleet rolls, make unit scoring, give bonuses on combined assaults, give the whole squad assault grenades, reroll rolls on which side you come from during outflanking, reduce deepstrike scatter, better mobility rolls, etc. Basically have the options to give them a lot better combat potential, a lot better synergy, or both - if you are willing to pay a bucketful of points.

Warlocks / Seers: make them either a 0-5 optional HQ, ideally one that doesn't take slots (as IG advisors or haemunculi) or 3-10 elite unit that can be allocated to another unit like wolf guard. Have them be regular seers with upgrades for warlocks, spiritseers, bonesingers etc.

Aspects: ideally +1 Ws or BS. Don't reduce point costs (possibly up them for DAs, making them a grey hunter-esque skirmish/melee specialists), improve abilities. Exarchs possibly 2-wound models (if so, of course, increase costs). Try to have several "options" in styles, such as:
- Warp Spiders: current one, templates (weaker), CC with poison weapons (surprise assault allows assault after DS, exarch can reduce scatter). Theme is: mobile, hard-hitting, close-range, options for immobilizing/poison nastiness. Haywire grenades either included or optional upgrades, it goes quite well with the theme and their purpose imo :) .
- fire dragons: meltaguns, heat lances, or flamers. Theme is: heat-based, devastating short-range attacks.
- Swooping hawks: lasblasters (better), haywire launchers(pinning blasts vs infantry), grenade packs. Theme is: mobile, longer-range, either high volume of fire or disorienting special attacks; the shorter the reach of the weapons, the more powerful they should be. Either increase power significantly or reduce cost, or a bit of both.
- Banshees/scorpions: high volume of attacks or higher strength. Banshees have a +2A on a charge as upgrade abilities, scorpions can get stealth.
(not sure about DAs just yet, but I think either true grit or pistol+ccw on top of the catapult would help them perform better when they do get to melee)
- Reapers: choose between, say, shuricannons, EMLs (possibly with lower strength, heavy 2), and starcannons. Theme: death from afar. Currently lack offensive punch and survivability to be worth their points - of the two, firepower should be primary. Make them hurt a lot - right now they cost the same as plasma cannon long fangs... and are way worse in practically every way.
- Shining spears - +2A on a charge, some close-range skirmish range attack, or a "lance through" attack like reavers.

Guardians: higher-range weapons, at least as an option. Have the same unit pick either support platforms (more than one for 10+ squads) or special weapons, I'd say 1 per 4 guardians, up to 3. Have the spotter for special platform teams be able to sacrifice their attack for BS bonus on the platform (+1 BS or reroll a single miss) a la signum. Have the option for Black guardians (+1 WS or BS) or storm guardians (better armor), say for 2 points each. Ideally make shuriken catapults 18 inches, some special goodies for avengers, option for pistols and CCWs, but for the love of cthulhu, do not make them mandatory to get special weapons. Grenades (plasma and haywire) as available upgrades (1 pt/model for plasma, 2 for haywire)

Rangers: more offense would be nice, short movement after firing (sniping and changing position) would be nice to represent better mobility. Do not decrease costs, improve abilities.

Jetbikes: decrease costs slightly, especially if their weapon range is unchaged. Have the option for better melee, esp. if Nuadhu is taken. Consider having vypers instead of the current cannon bikes (multi-wound, provide heavier weapons) instead of the current shrieker jetbikes.

Vehicles: all vehicles either get BS 4 as base or (like the Tau) with a cheap upgrade. If you are a high-tech race you either a) train your tank crews well or b) give them an advanced targetting system. Geez.

Vehicle upgrades: holo-fields either make vehicle concealed (upgrade save to 3+ when it would already be concealed, like when moving flat out) or make attacker reroll successful to-hit rolls. Price accordingly.

Vehicle weapons: (unless otherwise stated, I presume BS4)
- shuriken cannon: mostly fine. Consider giving it to vehicles as starting weapon and upgrade from there, like the IG multilaser. Possibly make 30 inches range if catapult gets a range increase, especially if vehicles retain base BS 3.
- scatter laser: mostly fine
- EML: a bit overcosted on BS 3 chassis. Consider making it 15 points OR making it heavy 2 (it says it reloads a lot faster than imperial tech) for 20-25 points, possibly with a S7 krak shot
- Starcannon: heavy 3 for current price, heavy 2 for lower. Do NOT reduce strength - it's a freaking plasma cannon, supposedly advanced.
- Brightlance: see the DE darklance? It's the same, so make it cost the same - on BS 4.
- Pulse lasers: good, but perhaps around 35 points might be a better cost. It's not that much better than a lascannon - 2 shots at lower strength. Make an "enhanced capacitors" upgrade to make their shots lances if they didn't shoot last turn (see Apoc sheet "Cloudstrike squadron")

Vypers: see above, basically attack bikes for eldar. Possibly slightly lower cost as T3(4) isn't much on a multi-wound model at 3+. Ideally make them part of jetbike squads or into squadrons of their own (either 1-3 or 1-5) as FAs.

Hornets: please introduce as FA. 1-3, possibly slightly higher cost, options for upgrade to move 12 inches and fire all guns (with 2 pulses will still cost more than ravager w. flickerfields & night fields, so imo it is fine)

Wave serpents: a bit cheaper, with energy fields as a purchaseable upgrade (say 85-90 points for a serpent with shuricannons and fields). Give them the option for an assault ramp at front (Eldar aren't much worse at surprise mechanized assaults than SMs), OR introduce an open-topped serpent (11 or 12/11/10) variant for assaults

If serpent doesn't have assault ramps or is open-topped, introduce venom or a similar transport for 6-8 passengers.

Wraithguard: T5 W2 (or 3), 18 inches on cannon OR melee configuration (wraith glaives). Wraithsight means lower WS/BS and I if a spiritseer is not present (or just make it higher if a spiritseer is present - in which case adjust the costs).

War Walkers: move to FA. 35-40 for BS 4.

Falcons: ok as they are, but with BS 4, possibly another (slight) upgrade at same cost. Have more variants like how the Russ tank does: falcons, warp hunters (large blast please), firestorms, etc.

Fire prisms: squadrons please (Possibly see the sunstrom apoc sheet, up to 3 in squadron). Otherwise I'd say make them and the spinners falcon variants, but unlike most others prisms (and arguably spinners) prisms are natural in squadrons.

Wraithlord: 1 sword gives +1 attack and reroll hits (just how often do you need to reroll wound rolls on S10, unless it applies to vehicle penetration), 2nd gives another +1 A and +1 I. See wraithguard for wraithsight rules. Option for heavy guns (pulse lasers and D-cannons), 2 guns =/= TL

Am I missing something? I think I only skipped the shining spears, and I'm not really sure how to go about them.

Spell_of_Destruction
23-02-2011, 22:28
Am I missing something? I think I only skipped the shining spears, and I'm not really sure how to go about them.

I'll do that one for you.

Give them grenades. Give the Exarch a power which gives the squad +2A when they assault rather than +1A (so emphasis is still on 'hit and run' tactics as they are still crap in subsequent assault phases). Skiller rider as standard.

Unit sorted.

archont
23-02-2011, 23:30
Really? I mean, really? I'm playing Eldar for nearly one and a half decade now, and the last dex was fine being mostly a copy-paste job. In fact, it is still fine - as in, comes in average in most competetive events. It's still holding up quite good, or even better - using my CWE versus lolWulfs or lolAngels was far more enjoyable than using my DE (wich, also, I've been playing forever)

The dex is fine, it needs minute changes, nothing massive like you propose - why fiddle with a running system?

I think you ought to think about how to approach stuff like that, ie the goal should be to change as little as possible and achieve as much as possible...
Wishlisting doesn't mean "shut your brains off, just post whatever you feel like" imho, it should imply: What's your serious wish for sane improvement?

TheLaughingGod
23-02-2011, 23:32
Really? I mean, really? I'm playing Eldar for nearly one and a half decade now, and the last dex was fine being mostly a copy-paste job. In fact, it is still fine - as in, comes in average in most competetive events. It's still holding up quite good, or even better - using my CWE versus lolWulfs or lolAngels was far more enjoyable than using my DE (wich, also, I've been playing forever)

The dex is fine, it needs minute changes, nothing massive like you propose - why fiddle with a running system?

I think you ought to think about how to approach stuff like that, ie the goal should be to change as little as possible and achieve as much as possible...
Wishlisting doesn't mean "shut your brains off, just post whatever you feel like" imho, it should imply: What's your serious wish for sane improvement?

Why should ANY changes be made to anything ever?

And just because the army is moderately successful doesn't mean it's what it could be. Many of us disagree with the way the Eldar play currently. It's unfluffy and doesn't make sense. We'd like a revamp.

Kresterz
23-02-2011, 23:48
Actually to be truthful,

I thinkmost statlines are pretty balenced :) Maybe certain vehicles withactual shotting eldar in turret can get BS4, but not much needed (scorpians are said to have better armor, not seeing it...)

The rest really comesdown to their skills (reaper/hawk/spears)
MAybe the exarch skills...

And possibly a second arming choice for aspects (maybe too much workfor GW)

Avatar buff...
PL andtanks made cheaper...

Spell_of_Destruction
24-02-2011, 00:01
Really? I mean, really? I'm playing Eldar for nearly one and a half decade now, and the last dex was fine being mostly a copy-paste job. In fact, it is still fine - as in, comes in average in most competetive events. It's still holding up quite good, or even better - using my CWE versus lolWulfs or lolAngels was far more enjoyable than using my DE (wich, also, I've been playing forever)

The dex is fine, it needs minute changes, nothing massive like you propose - why fiddle with a running system?

I think you ought to think about how to approach stuff like that, ie the goal should be to change as little as possible and achieve as much as possible...
Wishlisting doesn't mean "shut your brains off, just post whatever you feel like" imho, it should imply: What's your serious wish for sane improvement?

While I agree that some of the suggestions on here are OTT I think that you are understating how poorly the current Eldar codex has translated into 5th ed.

This is masked to a large degree by the fact that the codex is still fairly competitve but all that means is that a small portion of the list remains competitive - the competitive lists all seem to follow a similar theme with DAVU units, Jetseer units and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents. Boring as hell to play.

Add to that the fact that we have to plow points into highly mediocre Troops options (which is why DAVU is so popular) when our focus should be on elite infantry. Since 5th ed came out Craftworld Eldar seem to have lost their mojo - and I don't mean in terms of having a competitive edge, I mean in terms of being a fun and rewarding army to play.

archont
24-02-2011, 06:16
I am not going to argue that our troops suck, however, having a thened/fun list is entirely possible (wraithfuard unit as troops, stormguardians/scorpions as countercharge unit)

But for the most part, our stuff is all right, and changing ALOT of stuff is not a solution. Claiming they play unfluffy is also a nonsequitur --> You think they should play differently, however, safe for crystal targeting, Eldar have had the same gameplay since their 3rd edition dex, they've been playing the same way for as long as i am in the hobby that fateful day in 1997 when my neighbour introduced a 7year old archont to warhammer


Think about what I proposed implies: Suddenly, ws5 i5 guardians become feasible, while retaining the weapon they always had. WS/BS 5 aspects (by being able to lend a single stat from their exarch/autarch/PL per turn even ws7) @ i5 will be better than a normal marine in cc (but, @ 16pts a pop + whatever leader accompanying them), darkreapers and hawks hit almost everything, Spiders csn rain s6fire and then charge in with a reasonable chance of success...


I firmly believe, that as little but as best thought through a change is what we should hope for, not a mammoth list of stuff :)

Hendarion
24-02-2011, 06:38
WS5 for everything? Either you expressed yourself very badly or your idea is entirely over the top. WS5 looks low, but check out how many units in 40k have WS5, only the most top ranked close combat units have that. Guardians and Aspects really should not all have WS5. Absolutely not. WS4 is already an elite-value.
Stats-inflation is a bad thing.

Shamana
24-02-2011, 07:25
I'll do that one for you.

Give them grenades. Give the Exarch a power which gives the squad +2A when they assault rather than +1A (so emphasis is still on 'hit and run' tactics as they are still crap in subsequent assault phases). Skiller rider as standard.

Unit sorted.

Actually, I was hoping the banshees could get that for a better first strike.Either that or FC (or both if Avvy grants FC to nearby aspects), but since the boost to initiative won't be much use to them already, I think +2A (like blood claws iirc) is a decent exarch ability - or just squad upgrade ability, if it's no longer tied to the exarch. Not cheap, natch, but worth the prize.

On the spears, I can't help but think that the DE reavers might be on to something with the whole "zoom through the enemy" thing. If anything, a much more massive jetbike with a power lance rider should be even more able to plow through an enemy, even if it doesn't quite manage something as freaky as cutting through their throat with a straight razor attached to the headlight :)

@ Archont - if you comment was aimed at me, here is what I think: the CE are supposed to be an elite army. Their units are supposed to be expensive - at SM prices per model - and yet T3, with the predominant save being 3+ or worse. Now, I am trying to imagine a viable T3 elite army - especially in the current game - and as I see it, it should come with a serious offensive punch. As in, given their comparative frailty to everything else at the same cost - one superior to that of nearly every other army. Right now, pretty much all armies that can claim to have elite infantry have WS4/BS4, with a few 5s sprinked around - and almost all are S4 and T4.

BTW, for the record, I also definitely disagree with WS/BS 5 on stock guardians. I'm ok with guardians having a single 4 as an upgrade - at which point they'd cost as much as fire warriors, more if they get a 4+ save. Presuming a base cost of 9 points per model (with 1d3 shoot move, plasma grenades and 18-inches catapults) and +2 each for the BS/save upgrade, you get a unit costing 13 points per model. Now, this is the same as SM scouts, with the same scout armor (but not toughness), none of their plethora of rules, and no krak grenades - I consider this more or less equivalent exchange, especially considered that scouts aren't considered one of the premier units of the SM codex.

On the other hand, placing a single WS/BS boost on aspects (possibly with a decrease of the other score - how much training to banshees get in ranged combat?) would serve to indicate they are among the premier warriors in the galaxy in their chosen style - which would be quite the achievement, but imo possible for specialist elite units as they are supposed to be. If they end up costing more than the regular SM or CSM, and with some obvious drawbacks (lower strength and toughness, often save, same or higher cost) I think the WS/BS could be acceptable. If the current stat ratings are kept, I certainly think they should have something to make them more "killy".

I would imagine more aspects to be like the DE incubi - expensive, utterly lethal, and with kickass models :) .

archont
24-02-2011, 07:45
WS5 for everything? Either you expressed yourself very badly or your idea is entirely over the top. WS5 looks low, but check out how many units in 40k have WS5, only the most top ranked close combat units have that. Guardians and Aspects really should not all have WS5. Absolutely not. WS4 is already an elite-value.
Stats-inflation is a bad thing.

Is it though? It's not marines, people still bolter them to death, and once the exarch/autarch/warlock lending his skill to the squad is gone, they loose the statboost. You could also make it a "in your playerturn" thing, so that guardians etc are normal ws/bs/i (wichever they were lent)

Hendarion
24-02-2011, 07:50
Is it though?
Yea, it is. Sadly I barely understood the rest of your post, maybe we should talk about that in German instead :p

Spell_of_Destruction
24-02-2011, 08:18
Actually, I was hoping the banshees could get that for a better first strike.Either that or FC (or both if Avvy grants FC to nearby aspects), but since the boost to initiative won't be much use to them already, I think +2A (like blood claws iirc) is a decent exarch ability - or just squad upgrade ability, if it's no longer tied to the exarch. Not cheap, natch, but worth the prize.

I think it works better with Spears because it emphasizes their existing role which is to deliver a hard hitting first round assault before retreating. It's also a less pronounced advantage to the Spears because they have fewer numbers.

I've thought about Furious Charge for Banshees but it makes the Banshee Mask largely redundant. The Banshee mask is already of limited use (it's not often that banshees armed with plasma grenades are going to need it - useful against other Eldar and that's about it) so I think that the best thing to do would be to incorporate the 'War Shout' exarch power (which no one seems to take) into the Banshee mask rules but simply make it half the WS of the opposing squad in the first round of assault (no Ld. roll required).

That would allow Banshees to hit on a 3+ in the first round of assault against other elite troops which I think is a good boost. Let's not get greedy ;).

Poseidal
24-02-2011, 08:24
Banshee Mask should be changed to rather than making Banshees strike first, making units they charge strike last.

Shamana
24-02-2011, 08:39
That would allow Banshees to hit on a 3+ in the first round of assault against other elite troops which I think is a good boost. Let's not get greedy ;).

It's not greed if you pay for it ;) . If all of the above pass, I'd be quite content with increasing the cost of banshees, scorpions and dragons, say to 18 points/model as a base. How much would you think striking most other elites (except specialists such as DC, berserkers, incubi, against whom it would be a defense mechanism) on 3+ instead of 4+ would be worth?

Considering incubi are 22 and have better strength, armor, WS over banshees, can get FNP or FC, already have high enough initiative to go before most anything, and only lose out on grenades, I think it might not be too much over the top.

Col. Tartleton
24-02-2011, 13:29
Yes, but Dark Eldar Incubi have to be better than Eldar Aspects. Dark Side of the Force and all that... Plus Arha pretty much killed everybody because hes A(rha)nakin. :D

Fubar
24-02-2011, 13:52
Did I miss the announcement for new eldar codex?

Shamana
24-02-2011, 13:53
Dark side, shmark side... self-entitled brats, all of them. They better be thankful Marneus or the Sanguinor haven't been going medieval on their skinny, undertanned bums recently. :p

They already have a hybrid of the banshee sword and the scoprion one, heavier armor AND fleet, plus the whole pain token goodness chain. If they can't handle not hitting on 3+ models just slightly less expensive than their own, that's their problem.

@ Fubar: no, but that doesn't stop us from wishing :) .

Nocculum
24-02-2011, 14:12
One Two Threeing The Aspect Warriors

Dire Avengers -

1. Assault 2 Dire Avenger Catapults.
2. Bladestorm adds rending for one turn.
3. Stubborn.

Howling Banshees -

1. Additional attack.
2. All successful hits against them in the first round of an assault are re-rolled.
3. 5+ Armour Save.

Striking Scorpions

1. Can always outflank.
2. STR4 base.
3. Shadowstrike gives improved Infiltrate (12" in sight, can't assault first turn).

Fire Dragons

1. No falcon option.
2. Immune to flamers and melta.
3. Heavy Support Slot?

Swooping Hawks

1. Drop small template grenades once per turn whenever they fly over an enemy unit, scatters as normal, STR3 AP5, with possible Haywire version.
2. Hit & Run
3. 5++ when moving 12"+ (or straight up cover save?)

Warp Spiders

1. Rending Spinners.
2. Can assault from deep strike with increased risk of injury.
3. Move like beasts instead of jump infantry.

Shining Spears

1. Point drop.
2. +2 attack when assaulting instead of +1.
3. 5++ cover save (they are shining :P0.

Dark Reapers

1. Heavy 2 AP3 STR6
2. Ammo option - replace above for small template that inflicts night fighting on target unit if hit.
3. Elite slot.

Harlequins

1. They will be exactly as they are in the Dark Eldar Codex.
2. No changes.
3. Quitcha whinin'!

Kresterz
24-02-2011, 15:45
Aspects can get better Toughness value?

Better armour on scorpians as shown in the fluff,

Banshees can run and shoot and have hit and run? 5/4+ amor save and warmask lasts for 2 turns and can consolidate into fresh battle.

Hawks also get exarch skill dive bomb, during the shooting phase, they can choose a unit, deepstrike near it, if less than 6" scatter, then they can attack with +1 shot. They cannot move afterwards.

VeritasMortis
24-02-2011, 17:02
oh pleasepleaseplease..... full page entry and actual SPECIAL character feel and story for each Phoenix Lord.

Retribution
24-02-2011, 20:17
What about a veteran or "hardened" upgrade for Guardians? Could possibly confer +1 BS for defenders and +1 WS for Storm's. Wouldn't exactly be too OTT, and it would make them more viable...

Shamana
24-02-2011, 20:42
That's how I saw the Black Guardians (or something else to make them less tied to Ulthwe) - a 2-point upgrade for an extra point in WS or BS. Kinda like how IG vets relate to regular guardsmen (except for the extra weapons and all, I guess).

Spell_of_Destruction
24-02-2011, 21:37
What about a veteran or "hardened" upgrade for Guardians? Could possibly confer +1 BS for defenders and +1 WS for Storm's. Wouldn't exactly be too OTT, and it would make them more viable...

I don't think that it really fits the fluff regarding the Eldar path to have Guardian veterans - you're talking about Guardians with sufficient training and experience to be approaching Aspect Warrior level skill. Surely they would then be on a Warrior Path (of sorts). Guardians are part timers - Eldar who are not on the Warrior Path who are drafted in because of dire need.

We don't really need more skillfull Guardians anyway - we have Dire Avengers. Furthermore, Enhance gives Storm Guardians WS4 I5.

It would only make sense for Ulthwe to have the option of taking 'veteran' Guardians as the fluff clearly states that they have a standing army of Guardians (although Black Guardians can also be represented by Dire Avengers). That would be a nice option if they reintroduce Craftworld specific rules but I see that as highly unlikely.

TheLaughingGod
24-02-2011, 22:00
I don't think that it really fits the fluff regarding the Eldar path to have Guardian veterans - you're talking about Guardians with sufficient training and experience to be approaching Aspect Warrior level skill. Surely they would then be on a Warrior Path (of sorts). Guardians are part timers - Eldar who are not on the Warrior Path who are drafted in because of dire need.
Remember that Ulthwe (and other craftworlds like it) have a standing army of Guardians who are not on the Path of the Warrior and are as you say "Veteran Guardians" So if anything, the fluff supports the idea. And again, Guardians are not "Drafted in because of dire need" they are ALREADY trained, already have personal weapons and army and assigned units. All they are doing is deployed during dire need. They are more like Army National Guard, than a conscript militia.

Anyways, if it's possible for Guardians to be Veteran, it's possible. Doesn't mean everyone has a large amount of them, but you've got to imagine that after a while, some Guardians are gonna be good at what they do.



We don't really need more skillfull Guardians anyway - we have Dire Avengers. Furthermore, Enhance gives Storm Guardians WS4 I5.
Dire Avengers and Guardians don't have the share roles, obviously.

Son_Of_A_Horus
24-02-2011, 22:00
new plastic kit for dire avenger. They look good, but lack variety

plastic kits for a couple of aspect

New aspects, the slicing orbs of zandros would be ace

BS 4 for vehicuke would be good also

Plastic kits for ALL Aspects dude, how would you decide which ones get plastic?

Who or what are The Slicing Orbs of Zandros?

Hell yes, the vehicles need to be much better at shooting...

Spell_of_Destruction
24-02-2011, 22:34
Remember that Ulthwe (and other craftworlds like it) have a standing army of Guardians who are not on the Path of the Warrior and are as you say "Veteran Guardians" So if anything, the fluff supports the idea. And again, Guardians are not "Drafted in because of dire need" they are ALREADY trained, already have personal weapons and army and assigned units. All they are doing is deployed during dire need. They are more like Army National Guard, than a conscript militia.

Anyways, if it's possible for Guardians to be Veteran, it's possible. Doesn't mean everyone has a large amount of them, but you've got to imagine that after a while, some Guardians are gonna be good at what they do.


Dire Avengers and Guardians don't have the share roles, obviously.

What I'm saying is that Guardians are not regulars in the same manner that Imperial Guardsmen are regulars. Guardsmen are the backbone of the Imperial Guard and deployed in vast numbers as the army's primary front line trooper. Little or no regard is given to the lives of individual troopers who will serve until death or incapacitation. Guard Vets are the lucky few/hard b*stards who survive the incredibly harsh attrition rate of serving in the Imperial Guard.

Even if the Eldar placed such little value on life, they do not have the numbers to afford that luxury. They deploy elite forces of 'warrior monks' (which is basically what Aspect Warriors are) who are completely dedicated to warfare. I'm not suggesting that Guardians are thrown into battle with only basic training, but they will not have dedicated sufficient time or energy to be anywhere approaching Aspect Warrior level of skill. Their role is to provide support for the front line troops (the Aspect Warriors) and to free them up to perform their dedicated battlefield role. They are unlikely to be deployed in the thickest fighting unless the situation is desparate.

It is therefore unlikely that the conditions exist to produce hardened Guardian vets in the same manner that hardened Guard vets are produced. It is unlikely that Guardians will spend sufficiently long in service considering that they need to dedicate their time to their given path.

I already covered off your point regarding Craftworlds which have a standing army of Guardians - if we get Craftworld specific rules that's fine but I don't think that Guardian vets deserve a place in a generic Craftworld Eldar list.

And re your point that some Guardians will be better than others - this argument coudl be applied to just about any troops type in the game. The stats for any given troop are representative and should be taken as an 'average' of troops of that type. Obviously there will be variance between individuals and even squads but the scale does not allow for it to be represented on the battlefield.

Nocculum
24-02-2011, 22:40
I hope to god all the Aspects arn't given plastic kits, such beautiful models deserve the best paint work, and metal is where it's at - I am somewhat biased in that opinion however.

Retribution
24-02-2011, 22:41
I don't think that it really fits the fluff regarding the Eldar path to have Guardian veterans - you're talking about Guardians with sufficient training and experience to be approaching Aspect Warrior level skill. Surely they would then be on a Warrior Path (of sorts). Guardians are part timers - Eldar who are not on the Warrior Path who are drafted in because of dire need.


But think about it for a second...Craftworlds are almost always in dire need, so how is it a stretch to say that quite a large portion of Guardians would have sufficient experience to...not suck? If veteran guardsmen can attain aspect warrior skill how can you argue against seasoned Guardians being able to actually hit something? I make this suggestion because i personally don't want to use aspect warriors unless absolutely necessary for a role (fire dragons); if i want to play a Guardian themed army a la Ulthwe, i should damn well be able to at a somewhat competitive level

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 22:42
Spell of Destruction, you are off on your fluff, Guardians are former Aspect Warriors who have moved on to other paths (like the artist's, or bonesinger's, etc). As such they all were formerly Striking Scorpions or Fire Dragons or Banshees. In theory, some may even have been autarchs and farseers who have returned to civilian life.

They are just not a rag-tag 'militia'.

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 22:43
But think about it for a second...Craftworlds are almost always in dire need, so how is it a stretch to say that quite a large portion of Guardians would have sufficient experience to...not suck?

Not far off at all, as it says in the CWE Codex, even the citizen-militia of the Eldar are capable of wiping out whole trained armies of lesser races due to their superior technology, training and discipline.

Squallish
24-02-2011, 22:49
Inspired by opening credits for Dawn of War II:

Refinement of Form: Eldar Aspects with a 4+ Save gain a 5+ Cover Save against shot coming from 18" or less.

And for Warp Spiders: Warp Dodge: Warp Spiders gain Refinement of Form, despite their Armour Save.

Other ideas in my Fandex.

Retribution
24-02-2011, 22:49
Not far off at all, as it says in the CWE Codex, even the citizen-militia of the Eldar are capable of wiping out whole trained armies of lesser races due to their superior technology, training and discipline.

It's too bad fluff rarely matches up with tt rules; the Eldar are so advanced that their basic armor rivals cardboard and their basic guns...shoot a whole 12"

TheLaughingGod
24-02-2011, 22:54
What I'm saying is that Guardians are not regulars in the same manner that Imperial Guardsmen are regulars. Guardsmen are the backbone of the Imperial Guard and deployed in vast numbers as the army's primary front line trooper. Little or no regard is given to the lives of individual troopers who will serve until death or incapacitation. Guard Vets are the lucky few/hard b*stards who survive the incredibly harsh attrition rate of serving in the Imperial Guard. I understand what you're saying, but you're misunderstanding my point. Just because IG Vets are the 1 out of a 1,000 guys who didn't die during his first tour doesn't mean ALL vets are that way.



Even if the Eldar placed such little value on life, they do not have the numbers to afford that luxury. They deploy elite forces of 'warrior monks' (which is basically what Aspect Warriors are) who are completely dedicated to warfare. I'm not suggesting that Guardians are thrown into battle with only basic training, but they will not have dedicated sufficient time or energy to be anywhere approaching Aspect Warrior level of skill. Their role is to provide support for the front line troops (the Aspect Warriors) and to free them up to perform their dedicated battlefield role. They are unlikely to be deployed in the thickest fighting unless the situation is desparate.
They don't necessarily need to be. An average human in 40k lives maybe 100 years if he makes it to old age. The implication is that Guardsmen rarely make it to thirty. Eldar typically live to over a thousand years old. That being the case, it doesn't seem unusual to me that given say... 500 years of training and occasional deployment, even if their actual combat experience is holding the flanks, and gunning down suicide attacks, that will still make them experienced soldiers in the long run.



It is therefore unlikely that the conditions exist to produce hardened Guardian vets in the same manner that hardened Guard vets are produced. It is unlikely that Guardians will spend sufficiently long in service considering that they need to dedicate their time to their given path. Seems unlikely that they won't. All Eldar are Guardians ALL the time. War comes before any other path. You are not given the choice to simply continue baking bread or dreamwalking or sculpting when war arrives. You fight and then you return to you path.



I already covered off your point regarding Craftworlds which have a standing army of Guardians - if we get Craftworld specific rules that's fine but I don't think that Guardian vets deserve a place in a generic Craftworld Eldar list. And yet Rangers and Jetbikes are troops now. In fact, it even says in one of the books that ALL Craftworlds can deploy formations from ANY other Craftworld. Some of them just use them more. So other Craftworlds might have a smaller number of elite Guardians (It only makes sense anyways, what happens to Guardians who spend 700 years fighting as a Guardian? Do they just tell him to stop being so damn good?)



And re your point that some Guardians will be better than others - this argument coudl be applied to just about any troops type in the game. The stats for any given troop are representative and should be taken as an 'average' of troops of that type. Obviously there will be variance between individuals and even squads but the scale does not allow for it to be represented on the battlefield.
Not really. Not many races have thousand year lifespans and compulsory military service. That said, basically every race HAS a veteran version of it's basic infantry. Aspect Warriors are different in that they have a different philosophy and progression. They are not "Veteran Guardians" as you can become a Guardian post Warrior path.

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 22:57
All Guardians are veterans, as they are former Aspect Warriors. This whole discussion is moot.

ALL Eldar ultimately walk the Path of Khaine. They ALL become Aspect Warriors at some point in their lives, when the Mark of Khaine finds them. After they lay down their Aspect and have learned how to don their war-mask, they move on to another path (usually a civilian one) and then become Guardians to be called on in times of need.

Keep in mind that the farseers of a Craftworld will begin preparing, training and equipping their Guardians probably hundreds of years before the need becomes acute. The Eldar always try to go into battle with foresight and wisdom. Yes, sometimes the farseers are wrong and a particular danger is overlooked, but in general the Guardians will know what they are doing -- they are definitely not just cannon fodder.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Aspect_Warriors

Once an Eldar warrior finishes his time as an Aspect Warrior, he or she moves on to other occupations, as called for by the conventions of the Paths of the Eldar. Since the population of the surviving Eldar race is so low, all Eldar are expected to serve if called to fight. Thus, if a Craftworld subsequently goes to war, these former Aspects will frequently be called upon to serve as Guardians, a type of citizen-soldier serving as part of a militia to defend the Craftworld.

TheLaughingGod
24-02-2011, 23:03
All Guardians are veterans, as they are former Aspect Warriors. This whole discussion is moot.


You're MOSTLY accurate. Actually, Guardians are every single able bodied Eldar. Not simply former Aspect Warriors. All Eldar are trained and armed for war, even BEFORE they strike out to become Aspect Warriors (and not all of them will, not right away at least)

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 23:05
You're MOSTLY accurate. Actually, Guardians are every single able bodied Eldar. Not simply former Aspect Warriors. All Eldar are trained and armed for war, even BEFORE they strike out to become Aspect Warriors (and not all of them will, not right away at least)

OK, short preface: I know we're arguing over debatable sci-fi fluff for a game. So, take my comments with a grain of salt, and don't be offended or take it personally if I ask you for a citation. I'm actually interested in Eldar fluff and if I'm wrong I'd like to know! :)

That said: I don't actually think an Eldar is emotionally capable of going to war before learning the Path of the Warrior. By my understanding, which comes from Gav Thorpe's 'Path of the Warrior' novel, without his war-mask, he would break down in fits of hysteria at the thought of killing or being killed.

Shamana
24-02-2011, 23:09
I'm not suggesting that Guardians are thrown into battle with only basic training, but they will not have dedicated sufficient time or energy to be anywhere approaching Aspect Warrior level of skill. Their role is to provide support for the front line troops (the Aspect Warriors) and to free them up to perform their dedicated battlefield role.

Well, aspects are still better armored, better disciplined, better in hand-to-hand combat (higher initiative), excel in both shooting and melee (guardians would have to choose one), when led by exarchs have even more access to special training, etc. Guardians won't become equal to aspects just because they get a single stat boost. They won't even become equal to rangers - who, as per fluff, are more explorers and loners than they are soldiers or assassins, yet still get BS 4.


It is therefore unlikely that the conditions exist to produce hardened Guardian vets in the same manner that hardened Guard vets are produced. It is unlikely that Guardians will spend sufficiently long in service considering that they need to dedicate their time to their given path.

True, veteran guardians are produced in a different way. Unlike IG vets, who are forged for a campaign or two over several years, veteran guardians get a whole lot more training and may well see tens if not hundreds of campaigns. Yes, their experience might be less "concentrated", but they make up for that with a lot more time spent in battle and supposedly more advanced equipment. By the way, don't be so sure they would have been safely kept from harm all that time. Sure, the autarch in charge would like to keep them out of trouble, but when it's war, s..t happens, and guardians eventually get used a lot of battle - or die.


I already covered off your point regarding Craftworlds which have a standing army of Guardians - if we get Craftworld specific rules that's fine but I don't think that Guardian vets deserve a place in a generic Craftworld Eldar list.

Yeah, like that would happen. When's the last time anyone got anything specific in terms of rules? SMs are lucky they have HQs that bestow army wide rules, and even they must buy SCs to represent chapters as iconic as Imperial Fists or Salamanders - unless they are white scars (who can have bike captains for bike troops) they are just darn out of luck unless they get their poster boy. IG can get a mish-mash of units from everywhere - elysian troops in valkyries, heavy artillery support, Al-Rahem's scouts commanded by Kell side by side with Chenkov's recruits... Why should eldar need a very special HQ to represent one of the who knows how many craftworlds that have a guardian-based army, if they pay points for the priviledge?

@ Fidestratosque: I haven't read PotW yet, but the 4e codex doesn't say anything about guardians having to have been former aspects. It says every eldar is trained to fight if necessary, and they are called "civilians" in their own entry - which, at least, I take to mean they are not always a regular force. Now, in terms of psychology, I consider the kind of breakdown you describe quite unusual. First, they do get some training - over the course of their lives, I'd say quite a bit of it. Second... these are eldar. The guys that left to their own devices became psychotic enough to drown their own advanced civilization in a tide of blood and excess. The craftworlders made all those rules, paths, and who knows what else to hide one very simple truth: deep inside, they are the same guys that did all of this. Inside, they still crave the shocks and sensations, that is why many become outcasts - and some of those start leading dark lives. I think the warrior persona the guardian (and yes, iirc they still have one, if not as elaborate as aspects) has might be to prevent him/her less from falling to pieces when it comes to killing, and more from starting to enjoy it too much.

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 23:12
Shamana: I agree. Especially...

Aspect Warriors have access to super-ancient weaponry that the Guardians don't. They are led by Exarchs who are basically demi-god warriors who combine the souls of all of their dead predecessors in one suit of armor. They devote 100% of their time to training and thus their reflexes (initiative) and strength are at the absolute possible peak.

I'm really missing special aspect warrior armor and weapon options in the current CWE Codex.

Spell_of_Destruction
24-02-2011, 23:17
I understand what you're saying, but you're misunderstanding my point. Just because IG Vets are the 1 out of a 1,000 guys who didn't die during his first tour doesn't mean ALL vets are that way.


They don't necessarily need to be. An average human in 40k lives maybe 100 years if he makes it to old age. The implication is that Guardsmen rarely make it to thirty. Eldar typically live to over a thousand years old. That being the case, it doesn't seem unusual to me that given say... 500 years of training and occasional deployment, even if their actual combat experience is holding the flanks, and gunning down suicide attacks, that will still make them experienced soldiers in the long run.

Seems unlikely that they won't. All Eldar are Guardians ALL the time. War comes before any other path. You are not given the choice to simply continue baking bread or dreamwalking or sculpting when war arrives. You fight and then you return to you path.

And yet Rangers and Jetbikes are troops now. In fact, it even says in one of the books that ALL Craftworlds can deploy formations from ANY other Craftworld. Some of them just use them more. So other Craftworlds might have a smaller number of elite Guardians (It only makes sense anyways, what happens to Guardians who spend 700 years fighting as a Guardian? Do they just tell him to stop being so damn good?)


Not really. Not many races have thousand year lifespans and compulsory military service. That said, basically every race HAS a veteran version of it's basic infantry. Aspect Warriors are different in that they have a different philosophy and progression. They are not "Veteran Guardians" as you can become a Guardian post Warrior path.

You make some fair points and I understand where you're coming from. I'd rather not get any further into a tabletop vs fluff debate because there isn't really a right answer - it's all a matter of interpretation.

My main point is that Guardians shouldn't be as skilled as Aspect Warriors. Now, I think that an argument can certainly be made that Aspect Warriors whould has either WS/BS 5 depending on Aspect but that's a different discussion.

The fluff also says that former Aspect Warriors serving as Guardians can never fully replicate their Aspect Warrior skills, such is the level of dedication that is required to maintain that level of performance.

From a design perspective I just don't think it fits the Eldar style to have elite Guardians. Our front line troops are specialist so I don't think it makes sense to introduce Guardian vets with the same level of skill as Aspect Warriors and the tactical flexibility of tactical marines.

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 23:22
SoD: To take it back to tabletop balance, in my opinion an Aspect Warrior should be a match for a Space Marine, a Guardian should be a match for a Scout. Both are the elite of their races. The Eldar don't have 'mass' troops because they are numerically so small so there's no need for the Eldar to have a hormagaunt-equivalent or guardsman-style unit.

Retribution
24-02-2011, 23:23
If veteran humans that *may* live 50 years, if they're lucky, can attain the same skill as an aspect warrior then i see no reason why a Guardian couldn't do the same over centuries of service; although to portray aspect warriors more accurately it would probably mean making them BS/WS 5...but that's another debate

fidesratioque
24-02-2011, 23:26
I would honestly like to see Guardians cost 12 and look like Dire Avengers currently, with Dire Avengers getting a cost boost to 16, like almost every other aspect warrior, with a commensurate increase in their ballistic skill and weapon strength/range.

Bold_or_Stupid
24-02-2011, 23:32
Veteran Guardians (for a premium)

Veteren Aspect warriors (for the current price), maybe make all aspects troops(DA, SS, SH), FA(HB, WS, SS) or HS(DR, FD) and allow veterens as an elite choice, maybe with some special character (biel tan autarch/exarch king/avatar) that unlocks the veterans in the normal slots.

insectum7
25-02-2011, 00:20
Veteran Aspects? Isn't that like... Exarchs? I always figured the Exarch powers were good ways of representing more "elite" Aspect Warriors.

fidesratioque
25-02-2011, 00:27
Veteran Aspects? Isn't that like... Exarchs? I always figured the Exarch powers were good ways of representing more "elite" Aspect Warriors.

No such thing. Aspect warriors are either ready for combat or not. If they are not ready for combat they are not permitted to leave the aspect shrine -- they reach a plateau of skill when they finish their training and combat experience doesn't make them 'more' veteran. Also, the exarchs are not 'elite' aspect warriors but the leaders of the shrine.

Spell_of_Destruction
25-02-2011, 00:49
If veteran humans that *may* live 50 years, if they're lucky, can attain the same skill as an aspect warrior then i see no reason why a Guardian couldn't do the same over centuries of service; although to portray aspect warriors more accurately it would probably mean making them BS/WS 5...but that's another debate

I agree - if we're staying reasonably faithful to the fluff then virtually no mortal human should be capable of matching the skill level of an Aspect Warrior. An Aspect Warrior may spend a human life time perfecting his/her discipline before moving onto a different path.

I have long been an advocate of more highly skilled and higher costed Eldar units but after much deliberation and thought over codex design philosophy, I'm not sure that this is required to accurately represent the fluff on the battlefield. Stats are simply abstractions - yes it may seem unrealistic that a Guard Vet has stats verging on an Aspect Warrior's but I think it's important to take a step back and look at how units function on the battlefield and how they actually perform rather than looking as stats in isolation - let's not get too hung up on stat values as a clear indicator of a unit's capabilities.

Obviously Aspects would perform better with WS/BS 5 but how much extra would they need to cost to justify that stat increase? GW are notorious at overcosting certain attributes and undercosting others and I'm not sure I'd trust them to get the balance right. I already struggle to put enough Eldar models on the table at current point levels. If they're going to get more expensive then they need to be incredibly powerful because T3 and mostly worse than 3+ saves on most troops is a major drawback for a force so few in numbers.

I think that most Eldar units will perform as they should with a few power and points adjustments. I'd like to see some equipment adjustments (like the change to the Banshee mask which I suggested earlier) to give Aspects a bit of an edge over their elite counterparts in other armies.

EDIT:- One idea I had to give players the option to take 'elite' Aspect Warriors would be to improve the 'Disciples' rule that Phoenix Lords get so that you can take on unit of Aspect Warriors of the Phoenix Lord's shrine with WS 5 BS5. Makes sense if they're trained by the founder of the shrine and he/she's sure to surround him/herself with the best of the best. No extra cost (would be factored into cost of PL).

Kresterz
25-02-2011, 01:01
Veteran sounds weird.

We have guardians whoare guardians who will STILL BE GUARDIANS

They are civilians IN ARMOR! IS it that hard to figure out that they aren't trained as intensly and therefore will not be as good in any level. ONly Ulthwe stand a chance of having strong guardians and that comes form being more disciplined.\

Also, being a guardian of the shrione means that his level of trainging plateaus and is then a fully consious warmask. The urge causes hime to become more adept becaus ethere is no thought, just instinct.

Retribution
25-02-2011, 01:07
Veteran sounds weird.

We have guardians whoare guardians who will STILL BE GUARDIANS

They are civilians IN ARMOR! IS it that hard to figure out that they aren't trained as intensly and therefore will not be as good in any level. ONly Ulthwe stand a chance of having strong guardians and that comes form being more disciplined.

Consider the average life-span of an Eldar, now consider the average amount of fighting a Craftworld does (this is 40k, so the answer is lots and lots and lots)...it's not hard to deduce that there would be a core of experienced veterans that actually know how to shoot their bb-guns on any given world

Spell_of_Destruction
25-02-2011, 01:21
Consider the average life-span of an Eldar, now consider the average amount of fighting a Craftworld does (this is 40k, so the answer is lots and lots and lots)...it's not hard to deduce that there would be a core of experienced veterans that actually know how to shoot their bb-guns on any given world

This logic has some merit and I used to use it often to try to justify that Guardians should have WS or BS 4 or both.

One issue I have developed with this line of argument is that despite their considerably longer lifespans, the mortality of an Eldar as regards unnatural death is virtually the same as a human's. If Guardians are being thrown into fierce fighting that is even close to the sort that Guardsmen are used to experiencing, and that over a timespan of perhaps hundreds of years, an individual's chances of surviving are going to be close to nil.

This is why Guardians shouldn't be compared to Guardmen. Yes, they have greater innate abilities, yes they have longer to train and hone those abilities but they are NOT front line troops. It would make no sense for the Eldar to employ them as such (with the aforementioned exception of Ulthwe).

This is why I have always played with a Swordwind force - their style of warfare makes most sense to me in the context of the Eldar race's predicament. Highly trained mechanised Aspect Warriors overwhelm the enemy with lightning assaults before they can properly react, thus minimising casualties. The Guardians are there purely to act as support i.e. to hold ground and mop up after the Aspects.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 02:01
The problem is in the granularity of the rules. BS5 is not the same as WS5 and so they aren't balanced against each other and don't scale well.

It's also important to remember that guardians are made up of all non warrior path eldar, which includes people that have been on all sorts of other paths, from the path of the seer, mariner, to the classic 'potter and poet', or even the warrior path multiple times. The squad could have noobs and hoary veterans side by side. But it's obviously impossible to really represent that in the rules.

Imagine that the stats were abstract ranking values - try to ignore the rules mechanics that go along with them. So that the numbers are just relative measures of quality.

This is how I think fighting SKILL would look:

Conscript - 1
Guardsman - 2
Guardian - 3
Space Marine - 4
Aspect warrior - 5

On the other hand, a marine has much higher physical skills. Now the above is not written with the current 40k rules in mind - it does not mean that an aspect warrior shoots people on a 2+, nor that a guardsman shoots them on a 5+.

They are relative levels of skill only. Aspect warriors rely on their supreme skills and exotic wargear, whilst marines rely on a combination of good equipment, skill and physical superiority.

In my D10 rules I had them look like this:

Aspect warrior - WS5 BS5 S3 T3 I5
Space marine - WS4 BS4 S5 T5 I4

Hellebore

Ivellis
25-02-2011, 02:51
If I had my way these would be the basic eldar stat lines:

Guardian WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 LD8 Sv4+

Aspect Warrior WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I6 A2 LD9 Sv3+

Exarch WS6 BS6 S4 T3 W2 I7 A3 LD10 Sv2+


Possibly moving initiative down one slot each.

Spell_of_Destruction
25-02-2011, 03:44
If I had my way these would be the basic eldar stat lines:

Guardian WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 LD8 Sv4+

Aspect Warrior WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I6 A2 LD9 Sv3+

Exarch WS6 BS6 S4 T3 W2 I7 A3 LD10 Sv2+


Possibly moving initiative down one slot each.

No offence, but this isn't going to happen. We've just had the DE codex which contained very few characteristic changes (apart from the HQ options which became very strong). I wouldn't expect any major changes to the basic stat line of Guardians or Aspect Warriors when the next codex arrives.

It's clear that Phil Kelly (who I'm pretty certain will do the next Eldar codex and is a fairly level headed and consistent chap compared to *cough*Matt Ward*cough*) has it in mind that Dark Eldar are superior warriors to Craftworld Eldar - this is explicitly stated in the fluff. We get better armour and psychic powers to compensate.

So Aspect Warriors with better stats than Incubi - not going to happen unfortunately.

At best we might get Exarchs with 2 wounds but otherwise the same stats.

Ivellis
25-02-2011, 04:03
As long as it's Phil that writes the next codex then I'm sure I'll be happy with it, he's always been my favorite codex writer, he makes mistakes of course, but still, his books actually make me happy when I read them.

I do think aspect warriors should at least be closer to Incubi though. Incubi are supposed to be the ultimate warriors, but they're still basically the Dark Eldar aspect warriors.

Spell_of_Destruction
25-02-2011, 04:28
Yeah, I completely agree that Banshees and Scorpions need a bit of tweaking. Their power level relative to their cost was fine in the days of 3rd ed. but they don't really cut it these days.

I would achieve this by improving their equipment/exarch powers. The idea I suggested earlier (that the Banshee mask should half the enemy's WS in the turn the Banshees assault) would allow Banshees to hit WS4/5 on a 3+ in the first round of assault without giving them a stat increase.

I'm not too sure how to improve Scorpions as they're still pretty decent at what they've always done best - kill hordes. I just think that their current cost is a bit steep given that assault marines now cost only slightly more. I reckon that 14pts per model is about right for their existing rules.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 04:34
They really need to take the 'squad augmentation exarch powers' away from the exarch and just make them part of the squad, or at most an upgrade for the squad. Exarchs were never about holding their squad's hands so they can do special moves. It makes no sense that the squad wouldn't know how to infiltrate without the exarch. Trying to visiualise dire avengers being incapable of parrying enemy attacks until the exarch shows them how to do it at the time is quite hard.

Thus if striking scorpions came with stealth and infiltrate as standard then it would fix the problem somewhat.

Exarchs would then go back to the original incarnartion, powerful warriors that hone their skills to become the living embodiment of their aspect. Exarch powers would then be abilities that represent what somone dedicated to their aspect can do, beyond the norm, rather than the quite dull and strange squad upgrade powers we get now.

Hellebore

Dwane Diblie
25-02-2011, 09:30
For a long time I have been going off the fluff from the 2nd ed codex. In that Guardians are the main fighiting force as there are not enough Aspects to form full fighting forces. This has definatly changed some what.


Every Eldar is trained anr ready to fight as a Guardian if need be, so these troops are the mosr common of all Eldar warriors. They are primarily a defenceive force, ready to defend their Crafgtworld against direct attack, but Guardians also accompany their formidableEldar Aspect Warriors to larger battles elseware. Sadly, there are so few Eldar that their Aspect Warriors alone rarly constitute sufficient forces to undertake all but the smallest of missions.

Something, something, something, Mesh Armour

Something, something, something, Lasguns and Shuriken Catapults

Guardians squads are led by former Aspect Warriors, those who have trodden the Warrior Path but since left it. Their experiance never deserts them, although without their Aspect costumes they cannot revive old skills. None-the-less they are an import part of the Guardians' organisation, and effectiavly form the officer corps.

The squad leader had the exact same stats as a guardian, even then there was no diferentiation between former aspects and standard guardians. Warlocks where not associated with guardian squads then eather. The guardian leader could take wargear however.

So fluffwise Guardians have changed alot over time. I prefer the old fluff of them being the main part of any army, even though I do not run any at the moment my self. (got around 60 of the floating around in various forms, some even with las weapons.)

Anyway I have cond of forgotten my point. I think it is somthing along the lines of, there is alot of confusion as to a guardians roll in the army doe to the fact that it has changed soo much ofer the corse of history with Codexes and Novels all saying different things. Make of that what you will. :confused:

In a different note, reguarding Plastic Aspect Warriors, 60%/40% Male/Female torsos with the exception of Banshees which should be 40%/60%. I have been waiting for femail aspects for way too long.

Oh and if you had to chose only 2 Aspect units to be made in to plastic what would they be and why?

- Stricking Scorpions: they are about as mainstream as Dire Avengers. I would almost be willing to call them troops in their own right. But as I would also like to see a push back to guardians, I can see Dire Avengers as Elites also.

- Warp Spiders: Primarily because the models are soo old now and they are heavy also. Would love to see these get redone, and in plastic you could do somthing fancy with the end of the gun.

Poseidal
25-02-2011, 09:53
Wouldn't the smallest missions be the ones represented in 40k? (like around 50 figures)

Larger missions would be Epic scale, and involve Titans and more tanks, of which are mostly Guardian piloted.

Kal Taron
25-02-2011, 10:20
They really need to take the 'squad augmentation exarch powers' away from the exarch and just make them part of the squad, or at most an upgrade for the squad. Exarchs were never about holding their squad's hands so they can do special moves. It makes no sense that the squad wouldn't know how to infiltrate without the exarch. Trying to visiualise dire avengers being incapable of parrying enemy attacks until the exarch shows them how to do it at the time is quite hard.

I perfectly agree with this. This would also allow to differentiate between different "schools"/"styles" of an Aspect in an easy way. Like give them the option to take 2 out of 4 teachings that boost the squad in different ways. (Possibly even equipment changes for some Aspects. I'd really like DAs with spear and shield.)
The Exarch gets a stat boost WS/BS 6, A3 W2 can take more wargear and choose up to 4 Exarch powers. Move them to HQ as IC that can join their Aspect, give them some bonus and use them as retinue. (Not 1 for 1 HQ of course, or maybe outside the normal HQ slots even.)
Use Menshad-Khorum as HQ, PLs as SC and Avatar as Apoc Datasheet.
That should mould the Aspect part of the army quite nicely.

Poseidal
25-02-2011, 10:27
I would now put Exarch on WS/BS7. They are heroes that have fought since near the time of the fall with experiences of battle that go way back, and supported by the supernatural powers of their suit.

With some of the new challengers, the 6 value just isn't enough to represent them properly anymore.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 10:30
I'd say 6/6 for a squad exarch and 7/7 for a HQ exarch. PLs should be 8/8, 9/9 or even have one or two 10s in there, given Lelith's stats...


Hellebore

Kal Taron
25-02-2011, 11:30
Like I said 6 for Exarch, 7 Menshad-Khorum, 8 Phoenix Lords.
All three of them get more powerful than their WS/BS would indicate through their powers/equipment/special rules.

edit: I'm thinking of up to 2-4 powers for Exarchs, maybe 4-6 Menshad-Khorum and PLs get all of their Aspect plus 1 or 2 extra. Equipment should be on SM armoury level for Exarchs, legendary/ancient for Menshad-Khorum and PLs.

Retribution
25-02-2011, 12:18
This logic has some merit and I used to use it often to try to justify that Guardians should have WS or BS 4 or both.

One issue I have developed with this line of argument is that despite their considerably longer lifespans, the mortality of an Eldar as regards unnatural death is virtually the same as a human's. If Guardians are being thrown into fierce fighting that is even close to the sort that Guardsmen are used to experiencing, and that over a timespan of perhaps hundreds of years, an individual's chances of surviving are going to be close to nil.

This is why Guardians shouldn't be compared to Guardmen. Yes, they have greater innate abilities, yes they have longer to train and hone those abilities but they are NOT front line troops. It would make no sense for the Eldar to employ them as such (with the aforementioned exception of Ulthwe).

This is why I have always played with a Swordwind force - their style of warfare makes most sense to me in the context of the Eldar race's predicament. Highly trained mechanised Aspect Warriors overwhelm the enemy with lightning assaults before they can properly react, thus minimising casualties. The Guardians are there purely to act as support i.e. to hold ground and mop up after the Aspects.

But given the Eldars inherent situation Guardians would inevitably come to be used as front-line troops, because unless you're representing Biel-tan you most likely won't have enough aspects to fulfill everything. I fully believe that each of the large craftworlds are designed around giving any particular fluff army a different style of eldar warfare; a la Biel-tan is the swordwind, very aspect heavy, Iyanden would be very wraith-construct heavy, Ulthwe would be very Guardian heavy, Sam-hainn would be very jet-bike and vyper heavy...the only problem is how many of these fluff builds are even remotely viable? Even if i want to play an Ulthwe themed army, i'd probably have to run Guardians as dire-avenger counts-as just to make it worth it. I think the mark of a good 5e codex would be to make all of these playstyles viable, and that would include SOME reason / upgrade to give Guardians BS4 / WS3 or BS3 / WS4

Kresterz
25-02-2011, 13:40
Then, we need toughness buffs because lets face it, the aspects could be tougher than they are...

That and more strength. They do that much training...

I also think reapers get str 7/8 get exarch power that can prevent invuln saves, cover? (come on they have that awesome skilled shot stuff to be a unit thing instead of for just the exarch)

fidesratioque
25-02-2011, 14:43
But given the Eldars inherent situation Guardians would inevitably come to be used as front-line troops, because unless you're representing Biel-tan you most likely won't have enough aspects to fulfill everything. I fully believe that each of the large craftworlds are designed around giving any particular fluff army a different style of eldar warfare; a la Biel-tan is the swordwind, very aspect heavy, Iyanden would be very wraith-construct heavy, Ulthwe would be very Guardian heavy, Sam-hainn would be very jet-bike and vyper heavy...the only problem is how many of these fluff builds are even remotely viable? Even if i want to play an Ulthwe themed army, i'd probably have to run Guardians as dire-avenger counts-as just to make it worth it. I think the mark of a good 5e codex would be to make all of these playstyles viable, and that would include SOME reason / upgrade to give Guardians BS4 / WS3 or BS3 / WS4

My Ulthwe Eldar army regularly rocks lesser races with just Guardians.

2x Farseers, Guide & Doom, Fortune & Doom on jetbike.
10x Storm Guardians mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a witchblade warlock with Khaine's Blessing
10x Defender Guardians mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a singing spear warlock with Embolden
5x Wraithguard mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a singing spear warlock with Destructor
6x Jetbike Guardians, 2x Shuriken Cannon
1x Warp Hunter

Ghal Maraz
25-02-2011, 16:22
My Ulthwe Eldar army regularly rocks lesser races with just Guardians.

2x Farseers, Guide & Doom, Fortune & Doom on jetbike.
10x Storm Guardians mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a witchblade warlock with Khaine's Blessing
10x Defender Guardians mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a singing spear warlock with Embolden
5x Wraithguard mounted in a Serpent with EML and Shuriken Cannon, led by a singing spear warlock with Destructor
6x Jetbike Guardians, 2x Shuriken Cannon
1x Warp Hunter

What's Khaine Blessing?:wtf:
And, still... Your Guardian army... has only 10 Guardian Defenders, who are the worst offenders. And you have them mechanised, which compensates a lot the sling-like range of Catapults. And the paper-like armour too, I would add!

Hendarion
25-02-2011, 16:31
"Khaine's Blessing" is the word-by-word translated entry for "Enhance" in the German Codex ;)

fidesratioque
25-02-2011, 16:43
What's Khaine Blessing?:wtf:
And, still... Your Guardian army... has only 10 Guardian Defenders, who are the worst offenders. And you have them mechanised, which compensates a lot the sling-like range of Catapults. And the paper-like armour too, I would add!

What's wrong with mounting Guardians?

Most people mount their Aspect Warriors -- Guardians deserve the same respect. :)

Kal Taron
25-02-2011, 20:56
Not much wrong with it. It just means that in essence you have like 80pts of Guardians and 110pts or so of Serpent. Doesn't tell much about the effectiveness of Guardians in the end.

Far Seer
26-02-2011, 00:26
In my opinion, the eldar codex is pretty sweet the way it is. However I would like to see exarch powers to be able to be taken for the whole squad as an upgrade without the exarch.A lot of people have been posting insane stat bonuses which will be unbalanced and overpowered. I want to see 2 of the same weapons without TL on wraithlords, and their sword giving them a 2+ attacks bonus with rerolls for missed hits. A new aspect
Would be cool as well:)

Spell_of_Destruction
26-02-2011, 04:03
In my opinion, the eldar codex is pretty sweet the way it is. However I would like to see exarch powers to be able to be taken for the whole squad as an upgrade without the exarch.A lot of people have been posting insane stat bonuses which will be unbalanced and overpowered.

Agreed - I doubt we'll see a huge boost in power level when the new codex arrives. Some units need a lot of tweaking, some a little and some are fine as they are. The sort of units that fall into the first category are Swooping Hawks (which everyone seems to accept are crap). Most units fall into the second category.

Generally, I'd like to see a points adjustment downwards if we stick with the same Troops options we currently have, as having to fit in sufficient Toops choices to hold objectives is a real hindrance for Eldar. I'm not saying that every unit needs a dramatic reduction in points cost - simply that we need to be able to fit in a bit more because the 5th ed game style does not suit Eldar as much as 4th ed did.

TheLaughingGod
26-02-2011, 04:30
Agreed - I doubt we'll see a huge boost in power level when the new codex arrives. Some units need a lot of tweaking, some a little and some are fine as they are. The sort of units that fall into the first category are Swooping Hawks (which everyone seems to accept are crap). Most units fall into the second category.


Realistically, they're gonna get a boost and a ton of new units and rules. That's just the 5th Edition Paradigmn. Look at the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights. It's HUGE boosts all across the board. Eldar aren't going to be any different.

Hendarion
26-02-2011, 07:27
Are you going to bet on that, Cegorach? :p

Ivellis
26-02-2011, 09:04
It seems like Eldar, just like Chaos Marines always manage to catch the point of an edition when GW decides to streamline everything.

Sildani
26-02-2011, 11:16
"Khaine's Blessing" is the word-by-word translated entry for "Enhance" in the German Codex ;)

Proof that sometimes, Germans get the awesome names for things. Falcon skimmer? Nein, leiblings. Rather, Falcon antigravpanzer. Much cooler.

TheLaughingGod
26-02-2011, 11:50
Are you going to bet on that, Cegorach? :p

Yes. And if I'm proven wrong I'll hide behind Khaine so you can't get me! :p

RandomThoughts
26-02-2011, 12:15
How about borrowing from the long rifle? On a roll of 6 to hit, the shot counts as AP 2. This represents the hail of monodiscs flying through the air, with the chance of one hitting the target just right - FNP means nothing when the disc gets into the gap between helmet and neck armor and severs your jugular vein. Dire catapults get that on a 5 or 6, representing the idea that, with their heavier barrels, they can fire more at a time, more accurately, meaning more chances to nail the sweet spot. Range for both: 18 inches.

For the cannon, I suggest it get AP 1 on a roll of 6 to hit. It's a big monodisc after all...

That whole rule is a left over from the initial stages of rending in my opinion. Case in point, the Eldar snipers started it, now all snipers have it. It's too similar a rule to keep separate, so expect Rangers to get regular Rending and Pathfinder to get Rending on a roll of 5 or six on the to wound roll.

That being said, I don't care too much about rending anyway, not with 4+ cover all over the battlefield. Instead, give back 24" to the normal Shurican Catapult and make it 18" Assault 3 for the Dire Avengers and you clearly help both units strengthen their identities and battle field roles.

TheLaughingGod
26-02-2011, 13:03
Proof that sometimes, Germans get the awesome names for things. Falcon skimmer? Nein, leiblings. Rather, Falcon antigravpanzer. Much cooler.

Dire Avengers? Asurymenjaeger
Farseer? Das Runeprophet
Fire Prism? Illum Zar
Ravager? Schattenjaeger

yeah. German is just better.

Kresterz
26-02-2011, 13:49
Sorry for oftopc, but have you seen the asian codex's???

BAck on topic,

Anyone going to support my idea of more toughness? T3 is pretty low for aspects, make exarchs T5, and aspects T4

Sildani
26-02-2011, 14:00
Dire Avengers? Asurymenjaeger
Farseer? Das Runeprophet
Fire Prism? Illum Zar
Ravager? Schattenjaeger

yeah. German is just better.

Quick bit o' translation here:

Asurmenjaeger = Asurmen's Hunters
Illum Zar = that's Eldar, not German. Still cooler.
Schattenjaeger = Shadow Hunter

Yep. Just niftier.

fidesratioque
26-02-2011, 17:06
Zar is Eldar for 'sword', I know that much. :)

Shamana
26-02-2011, 19:17
Hmm, something like a "Blade of Light," then? Cool. BTW, wasn't the name for warlock "Runenleser" (rune reader)? It might work better if the warlock becomes just a regular seer in the next codex.


Anyone going to support my idea of more toughness? T3 is pretty low for aspects, make exarchs T5, and aspects T4

I don't agree with that. It doesn't coincide with fluff at all, and imo is not necessary for the army mechanically.

T3 is near human levels, basically. T4 is the province of large, bulky creature genetically engineered for withstanding abuse - such as orks (who were made to serve as en masse shock troops by the most advanced civilization), space marines (elite shock troops by a still very advanced civilization), necrons, DE wracks, and so on. These don't just endure pain, they can take what would be lethal trauma for a "regular" humanoid and keep fighting. Basically, when it comes to taking the pain, they aren't just on top of the league - they are a different league.

Eldar don't have that. Their whole theme is that they are, at the core, not so different from humans physically - faster and with more psychic power, sure, but in an otherwise similar frame. They are an elite army that is still S3 T3, but whose hyperadvanced technology and psychic power allow them to compete with the big boys with similar numbers. If guardsmen can take on a marine by being 10 to 1, eldar do it with a LOT of training, harnessing their psychic might (consciously or no) and magic science. Exarchs might be heroic individuals able to fight through the pain, perhaps perform superhuman feats of endurance (which might justify a second wound), but their bodies are still that of normal eldar - just pushed to near perfection.

Ravariel
26-02-2011, 19:54
Anyone going to support my idea of more toughness? T3 is pretty low for aspects, make exarchs T5, and aspects T4

Well, the difference between toughnesses is extremely significant. So many other armies are majority t3 (DE, IG, SoB, Tau) that shifting an army that has the fluff of being fast and delicate to the beefyness you see in Marines and Orks doesn't really flow. And t5 should be ridiculously hard to get, relegated to Bikes, MCs and very special instances.

Shifting Guardian armor to 4+, Aspect to 3+ (maybe give Reapers 2+ armor), and giving them some decent defensive options should be enough to boost their survivability to respectable levels without breaking them.

Kal Taron
26-02-2011, 22:06
Zar is Eldar for 'sword', I know that much. :)

I always thought it means "storm", see Jain Zar the Silent Storm.

@toughness
It would be possible for Exarchs to become T4 IMO. They fuse with their armour after all so there'd be justification for that. Not saying that they need it though. Better armour, invuls and equipment should do just nicely. And a second wound of course.

Pigboyneo
26-02-2011, 22:29
But why should eldar get a increase in toughness? A space marine captain, is just the same toughness as a space marine scout. And if armour did add to models toughness, then why are not terminators T5????

Insta_AxE_Toast
28-02-2011, 02:46
I really like Hellbournes idea for the better armour. Ie ap 5 does not penetrate armour 5.

Wraithguard are tough enough already, they do need a range boost though. 18" would do, this will help keep them out of cc a bit longer.
-Another idea is if you have five with a spirit seer in a serpent they are a troops choice? This would make them a nice anti tank unit that people might actually consider over fire dragons.

Wraithlords, I would love to see them be able to take one of the heavier weapons plus a sword. D-Cannon, Night Spinner, Pulse Laser, Prism Cannon...
-Give them an option for two swords and one regular heavy weapon.
-Get rid of dual weapons equals twin linked or make it cheaper.

Brightlances (I think this goes with most heavy weapons in the codex) either make them cheaper or make them better. As it is they cost way too much, which is why so many people resort to fire dragons for their AT.

TheLaughingGod
28-02-2011, 03:57
But why should eldar get a increase in toughness? A space marine captain, is just the same toughness as a space marine scout. And if armour did add to models toughness, then why are not terminators T5????

Well first off. Tau Battlesuits set a precedence for armor adding toughness.
Second off: Terminator suits aren't literally part of the body of the veteran wearing them. Eldar Exarchs are literally one with their armor.

Hellebore
28-02-2011, 04:03
In 2nd ed there were two exarch powers that boosted an Exarch's Strength and Toughness. Thus you could get a S5 T5 exarch (the same S and T as a marine character).

Phoenix Lords were S5 T5 normally, so when they possessed those exarch powers they became pretty scary - Maugan Ra was T6 for example.

Exarch magical powers and their fusion to their armour are both reasons for Exarchs (and only exarchs) to be able to increase in S and T.

All other eldar should be 3/3. I never particularly liked the scorpion S4, despite their fluff justification for it. Much prefer the +1S scorpion chainsword instead.

Hellebore

Dead7
28-02-2011, 04:31
i would prefer getting -1 armor across the board, but if mephie can have s6 t6 then i dont think boosting a few eldar would be that bad.

TheLaughingGod
28-02-2011, 07:09
T3 is near human levels, basically. T4 is the province of large, bulky creature genetically engineered for withstanding abuse - such as orks (who were made to serve as en masse shock troops by the most advanced civilization), space marines (elite shock troops by a still very advanced civilization), necrons, DE wracks, and so on. These don't just endure pain, they can take what would be lethal trauma for a "regular" humanoid and keep fighting. Basically, when it comes to taking the pain, they aren't just on top of the league - they are a different league.
Oh, like Eldar Farseers who become T4? (though it's just Eldrad now)




Eldar don't have that. Their whole theme is that they are, at the core, not so different from humans physically - faster and with more psychic power, sure, but in an otherwise similar frame. They are an elite army that is still S3 T3, but whose hyperadvanced technology and psychic power allow them to compete with the big boys with similar numbers. If guardsmen can take on a marine by being 10 to 1, eldar do it with a LOT of training, harnessing their psychic might (consciously or no) and magic science. Exarchs might be heroic individuals able to fight through the pain, perhaps perform superhuman feats of endurance (which might justify a second wound), but their bodies are still that of normal eldar - just pushed to near perfection.
Exarchs are fused with a suit of living armor and are capable of performing supernatural powers. This is canon from 2nd ed into 4th.

Shamana
28-02-2011, 08:21
@ TLG: I did mention a toughness-improving upgrade for Farseers in my "wishlisting for units" earlier - and yes, at least some should be T4. However, as far as I remember eldar farseers have a very good reason for that - their bodies change and they start to crystallize. That does make them much more capable for handling shocks and wounds. Just like, for example, how that IG character (straken, I think?) who has more bionics than flesh is T4 - sure, normal humans can be T3, but there's not that much of a human on him anymore.

Regarding exarchs, I'm a bit less certain - but iirc underneath the armor (which is pretty good - SM power armor equivalent) they are "regular" eldar. As I understand it, superhuman abilities may be rooted in subconsciously tapped psychic potential - they identify themselves to be so close to Khaine that they can subconsciously tap their mental powers and "will" themselves to perform feats that aspect heroes such as themselves should be able to do. It's kind of make-believe - but make-believe can do a lot when you have a natural talent of shaping the energy of the warp. Their special toughness is imo well enough represented as a second wound, and possibly FNP if being in the Avatar's presence - when standing shoulder to shoulder (or shoulder to ankle) with their God, death itself cannot stay them.

However, I think the decision to make "regular" eldar T3 was due to the army theme. It might be nice to have some T4, but overall I don't see it as necessary - and I think we are better off asking for stuff we are more likely to get, such as offensive prowess or special defenses.

TheLaughingGod
01-03-2011, 04:32
Regarding exarchs, I'm a bit less certain - but iirc underneath the armor (which is pretty good - SM power armor equivalent) they are "regular" eldar. As I understand it, superhuman abilities may be rooted in subconsciously tapped psychic potential - they identify themselves to be so close to Khaine that they can subconsciously tap their mental powers and "will" themselves to perform feats that aspect heroes such as themselves should be able to do. It's kind of make-believe - but make-believe can do a lot when you have a natural talent of shaping the energy of the warp. Their special toughness is imo well enough represented as a second wound, and possibly FNP if being in the Avatar's presence - when standing shoulder to shoulder (or shoulder to ankle) with their God, death itself cannot stay them.
One bit of the fluff that has a Scorpion Exarch that is killed and inside the suit is only dust. This might be because Karandras absorbed him. Their abilities come from the spirit pool of the Exarchs actually. It's not just "Make believe" exactly, they just are what they are. I compared them to lesser daemons of Khaine before.

Hellebore
01-03-2011, 06:43
The original +1S was Crushing Blow. The original +1T was Tough (a tad unimaginative...). As their powers are psychic energy based, a higher toughness would be due to them channeling that energy into maintaining the integrity of the suit, fusing damge etc.

An exarch is basically a hollow wraithguard with a plethora of very focused and experienced souls within, powering it. Where they choose to direct that power is the result of their training and thus the reason they possess their supernatural exarch powers (which is what it says in the codex, despite the fact that most of the powers are mundane skills any chumpkin can learn).

Hellebore

Cosmic_Girl
01-03-2011, 07:53
Add all the FW releases to the codex lineup, the wasp is broken! Expand the Harlequin component and leave room for an exodite list.

C-girl.

Spell_of_Destruction
01-03-2011, 08:07
Add all the FW releases to the codex lineup, the wasp is broken! Expand the Harlequin component and leave room for an exodite list.

C-girl.

I'd love to see rules for Exodites but I think that they deserve their own codex rather than a single unit entry in the Craftworld Eldar codex. It's a bit different with Harlequins because they are a small enigmatic sub group. The exodites are a civilization unto themselves.

Only issue with Exodites is how to get the imagery right - it would be a bit of a disappointment if they ended up looking like some FB Wood Elf/Lizardmen b*stardization.

Shamana
01-03-2011, 08:30
One bit of the fluff that has a Scorpion Exarch that is killed and inside the suit is only dust. This might be because Karandras absorbed him. Their abilities come from the spirit pool of the Exarchs actually. It's not just "Make believe" exactly, they just are what they are. I compared them to lesser daemons of Khaine before.

Hmm, is this PotW? I might need to read that one of these days. Still, I'd expect that latent psychic abilities should play some part in any supernatural feats from the exarchs. That's how I interpret the DE PfP rule too, I guess you can call it a pet theory of mine.

Kal Taron
01-03-2011, 09:06
It was in a short story in WD a long time ago IIRC. Basically Kharandras staggers into a Striking Scorpion shrine through a Warpportal mortally wounded. The resident Exarch offers his hand for help and Kharandras sucks in his soul, leaving only the empty suit and dust behind. Kharandras is restored and leaves the shrine to warn the Craftworld while he assimilates the Exarch.

Spell_of_Destruction
01-03-2011, 09:29
It doesn't sit well with me that exarchs are so clearly inferior to autarchs in terms of combat ability. Saying that though, I'm not sure I would boost exarch abilities to HQ level.

I think that they should get a second wound and exarch powers which actually enhance his/her own abilities rather than the squad's - something that was discussed earlier in the thread.

Some examples of powers that I have devised for banshee exarchs (in the fandex I'm currently writing) is one parrying power which grants the exarch a 3++ in combat and a 'blademaster' power which is similar to the old sustained attack power (except that the attacks don't continue to accumulate - you get a single extra attack for each initial successful hit).

These sorts of upgrades would make exarchs stand out from standard 'squad upgrade sergeants' while stopping short of elevating them to true HQ status. Current exarch powers would be squad upgrades which you can take without an exarch.

What I like about this idea is that it makes exarchs more special (and therefore more expensive) and makes aspects potentially more powerful without the need to have their exarch chaperone present. This is how it should be in my view - Aspect Warriors should not need the guidance of an exarch and should be perfectly capable of performing their role without him/her.

The exarch instead gives the option of adding some serious bite to the unit but comes at a cost.

Kresterz
01-03-2011, 13:23
Ithink spell has hit upon exarchs really well!

BUt I think aspect statlines should variant for those in assualt roles or shooting roles +1 for either role...

Boost Exarchs to have slightly more strength(definitly)/ +1 wound

We then could move into giving storm guardians its own page in the codex and give them non direct order status.

I think our avatar could get better statline to something like demonprince level? His abilities are pretty good but his weapon might enjoy a bit better range 18" if all shuriken's get 18" and then avengers get either +1 BS or can be 24"

Also, give him a template flamer attack because he should be able to spew lava from himself being a flaming deity right? This could be very helpful in about to assualt AND can be used instead of normal attack :) (I really love the template idea)

Hawks could get ranger longrifles? BUT change them slightly and give them some powers?

Reapers can get more reliable weapons and exarch stays same. They get +1 BS for their targeting vanes or something like that...

Dire avengers need something like valient warriors where they can get a defense boost for a turn from shooting attacks (must be used with more than half strength)

Nocculum
01-03-2011, 13:39
Would Guardians be better served as the only troop, alongside jetbike variants and rangers?

Improve Dire Avengers but move them to Elite, or indeed, make them non-scoring (without a HQ upgrade etc).

Hendarion
01-03-2011, 17:41
Would Guardians be better served as the only troop, alongside jetbike variants and rangers?

Improve Dire Avengers but move them to Elite, or indeed, make them non-scoring (without a HQ upgrade etc).
:eek:
First I thought: "Omg, this dude is crazy, he wants horde-units for Eldar to become the only standard-choice. WTF???"
But now I realized this must have been irony to the heart. Most heavy irony ever. :D

Pigboyneo
01-03-2011, 17:54
Well first off. Tau Battlesuits set a precedence for armor adding toughness.
Second off: Terminator suits aren't literally part of the body of the veteran wearing them. Eldar Exarchs are literally one with their armor.

Hmmm so if tau can have it, so should Eldar but not marines?

Ah Terminator suit are very much "apart" of Space Marines body; the black carapace he where makes it apart of him

magnum12
01-03-2011, 20:57
Seems to me that Eldar don't need that much barring a few minor changes and new war gear options.

1. All Exarch powers that confer USRs (tank hunters, infiltrate, counter charge, etc) are free.
2. Rework point costs for weapons, especially vehicle weapons. All vehicles should get the bare minimum weapons for free with points adjusted based on said weapons.
3. Wraith guards/Wraith Lords immune to poison weapons. Hell Fire Rounds should still work because those aren't poison, they're acid.
4. War Walkers moved to Fast Attack.
5. Avatar inflicts S3 AP- hits on all enemy models engaged to it before combat begins (idea from Grey Knights). Reason: Represents its burning hot aura. This increases its threat to squads while not really affecting its threat to characters that much.
6. Stats of Autrach boosted to Archon. More expensive than Archon but more durable. New war gear options would be nice.
7. SLIGHT point increase to Fire Dragons. Should cost about as much as a demolitions vet with meltas (better stats in exchange for the demo charge as FDs get melta bombs). This would also include the free tank hunters mentioned earlier.
8. Dark Reapers cost about as much (or a little more) as a Devestator with a heavy bolter. (Exchange better AP for less shots)
9. Rangers cost similar to Scouts. Current Path Finder upgrade is fairly costed as is.
10. +1 base attack for Banshees and Scorpions.
11. The FW goodies (those new models are SWEET) in the codex.
12. Farseer costs a little less than a Librarian BUT gets two powers for free. Pay for a level 2 upgrade that gives T4 (in the fluff and Eldrad has it whatever it is).
13. Phoenix Lord grants X Aspect warriors as troops

Shamana
01-03-2011, 21:03
No more than it makes power armor a part of the marine. Besides, we don't quite know just what is included in that T4 S4 - since we never see marines without at least scout armor.

@ Magnum - I can agree with most of those, although I think aspects can use WS 5 instead of an extra attack (except possibly spears, they do need more attacks). Dire avengers, spiders and the like are trickier - possibly an option for pistol/CCW on top of the main gun?

I'm not sure about the poison and wraith constructs thing... Poison is mentioned as various acids/toxins, this is why it affects the likes of daemons or necrons. We'll see how it works with the necrons.

althathir
01-03-2011, 21:31
I think eldar for the most part are a lot more balanced then people give them credit for.

Really our assault troops need a boost . grav tanks should get bs 4 and I think a falcon should be able to fire two weapons at cruising speed, warwalkers should be able to pay for bs 4, and hawks need a boost.

I would give banshees the ability to count our transports as assault vehicles, and for scorps they should get inflitrate for free and the exarch should be base str 4. Shining spears is tough im not familiar enough with them to offer solutions.

For Dire Avengers I would allow warlocks to join them too, that would give them some anti vehicle punch and add some more variation to the unit.

Guardians Im not sure how to fix to be honest, they've never really made sense to me (i prefer all aspect armies from a fluff perspective unless they're being invaded and then honestly they should kinda suck) I think storm guardians are fine, maybe allow the squads to take 2 special weapons if they're big enough?

magnum12
01-03-2011, 23:15
1. For Guardians, I'm thinking they should just go down to 6 points. They're over costed at 8 and at 5 are better than a guardsman.
2. Shining Spears get Skilled Rider and Hit & Run for free (see Exarch USR powers being free in previous post) along with +1A.
3. Warp Spiders get Deep Strike and Hit & Run for free and slight point reduction.
4. Shuriken Cannons are essentially souped up Storm Bolters (valued at 3 points), their cost should be 5 points. Scatter Lasers are analogues to Heavy Bolters. Should cost 10 points. Star Cannons/ EMLs are analogues to plasma/missile launchers, thus should be valued at 15 points. The Bright Lance is about as powerful as a lascannon (less than it at AV 12, equal at AV 13, better at AV 14) and should be 20 points. Twin linked multiplies cost by 1.5.
5. Jet Bikes changed to 20 points. As they are, they're vastly inferior to Reavers.
6. Wraith Lord gets cheapest mandatory weapons for free. Upgrade costs scaled based on those weapons.

Note: I'm not an Eldar player (I play Guard, World Eaters, and occasionaly Orks) but I do know one and the things I'm posting are his commentary (which I agree with after looking at the codex).

As for the poison issue, the problem is exactly what the definition is. Tyranids, Marbo, and the Bane Wolf use a combination of corrosion and poison. Sternguard, and Inquisition only use acid. Dark Eldar and Nurgle use only poison/disease (which would count as poison rather than acid). The real issue here is that GW mistakenly lumps them both together when they should split the toxic property into the "Poison" and "Corrosive" sub type, then make the Wraith Guard/Wraith Lord immune to the "poison" subtype.

Squallish
01-03-2011, 23:49
Just some thoughts I had, some borrowed, some combined to create an over-arching theme for the new book. In general, these changes would not change point costs unless specified.

Army-wide Special Rules:
Grace of the Eldar: All units with the Fleet USR may roll 2d6, choosing the highest for the distance rolled, or may move d3" in the Assault phase (even if Heavy Weapons were fired), but not both in the same turn.

Psychic Mastery: All Psykers in the army may cast 2 psychic powers per turn.

Impenetrable Wraithbone: All units with Wraith Armour are immune to Poison shooting and close combat weapons.

General Buffs:

- Aspects WS5, BS5, Exarchs WS6, BS6
- else, army-wide BS4
- drop Guide as a power (or change its function to cause enemy to re-roll passed Cover Saves)
- Scorpions to Troops, gain Scout, Infiltrate for free
- Banshee Mask reduces enemy to I1, WS1 in first round of combat and Bashees to I10
- Harlequins 20pts including kisses
- Shining Spears +1A base, +2I on charge
- Vypers AV11
- Walkers to Fast, access to Stealth via wargear
- Eldritch Storm to S7 Ap5 Rending, keeps spinning effect
- Support Weapons to Troops

Ranged Weapons:
- Shuriken Cats 12" S3 AP5 Assault 3 (with Doom and BS4 these aren't that bad!)
- ShuriCannons 24" S6 AP5 Assault 3 (so it's double S, double range.. simple to remember)
- Avenger Catapults 18" S4 AP5 Heavy 3 or Assault 2, Rending
- Hawk Lasblasters replaced with Haywire Grenade Launchers: 24" SX AP6 Heavy 2 or Assault 1 Blast ; any vehicle hit with the hole in the template over the hull is glanced on 2-4, penetrated on 5-6. If the hole is not over, glance on 5-6. Infantry must take a pinning check at -1 for each model hit under a hole, but otherwise take no wounds
- the above changes "fix" the holy trinity of unfocused weaponry (Shuricats, Avenger Cats, and Lasblasters) so there is a little less overlap and each will have a distinct role (Guardians -> Light Infantry, Hordes; Avengers -> Elite Infantry; Hawks -> Vehicles, Low Ld Infantry)

- Starcannon 36" S7 AP2 Heavy 2 (so it's actually plasma without overheating)
- Bright Lance, Pulse Laser both AP1
- Starcannon, Brightlance 5-10pts cheaper depending on platforms
- D-weaponry all S10 AP2, Instant Death, Gets Hot! on any miss

althathir
02-03-2011, 02:24
I think bright lance pulse laser being ap 1 is a bit much they will keep them even with dark lances.

support weapons as troops could be a nightmare as well, maybe if they weren't scoring but eldar shouldn't be a gun line army ever.

the rest is fine as long as we have to pay for it.

edit: I think the fleet rule should be a usr for fleet units in general eldar aren't faster then their kin

Hellebore
02-03-2011, 02:58
If they dropped the LAnce rule on brightlances and just gave them AP1 it would make them better.

Currently a brightlance is:

Worse than a lascannon rangewise
Worse strengthwise
Worse at penetrating 3 of 5 armour values, equal at 1 and better at 1

All in all, a brightlance is crap compared to a lascannon and there were cries to buff the lascannon recently because it wasn't good enough... :eyebrows:

Hellebore