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View Full Version : Bear with me here, new Marine player... Some background queries!



HRM
20-02-2011, 01:38
I gave a quick look, but didn't neccessarily see these questions answered in the sticky at the top of the page...

I have decided to go full-out and create my own home-grown Chapter of Space Marines, the Templars Invictus (invictus being a Latin word for unbreakable or undefeatable, if I understand correctly). I want to base them, aesthetically anyway, on the Knights Templar that defended (or pillaged, depending on your point of view) Jerusalem during the Crusades. This will be a daunting prospect as I have, currently, neither...

A) The 40K rulebook

B) Codex: Space Marines

C) ANY experience whatsoever in 40K, really, having never played a game of it (I did buy the 3rd Edition Rulebook, but never got around to collecting an army). Yes, these guys will be my first foray into 40K - this project was inspired by Jind_Singh's thread about Ultramarines.

I don't exactly have a firm color scheme picked out yet; I guess that's actually neither here nor there. I absloutely love Dreadnaughts, and intend to include as many of them as I can - I dunno how GOOD they are, but I LOVE the models. In addition, I like the Heavy Bolter Marine model, so I want to include a Devastator Squad with all Heavy Bolters. The idea behind these guys is that they like to blow the snot out of you from a distance before closing in at the end to wreck shop in close combat - lots of Tactical Marines, lots of Heavy Bolters. Love that model.

The OTHER background idea behind these guys is that their back-in-the-day Chapter Master believes he has recieved a direct message from the Emperor through a dream (do Space Marines dream? I dunno) tasking him to protect a certain area of the galaxy from invasion - again, the Templars/Jerusalem thing. He believes (I have no name for him yet) that he has direct, Emperor-derived clemency to do as he sees fit to achieve this aim, which of course will bring the Templars Invictus into conflict with all kinds of folks, occassionally even Imperial forces.

SO! Having said all that, I humbly subject my ideas for background check, haha... Does any of this sound way outta line with 40K? Does it make you go "Well, THAT'S ***ing retarded"? Keep in mind, I have no real knowledge of the 40K background.

Also... If a Marine Chapter focused a lot on Dreadnaughts, Devastators with Heavy Bolters, lots of Tactical Squads and "softening up" of enemies before engaging, which of the First Founding Chapters does it make the MOST sense for them to come from? Does it even matter? Someone already suggested Iron Hands, but I dunno about the "bionicness" of them...

Any and all comments and advice are appreciated, thanks in advance!

Challenge Accepted
20-02-2011, 01:51
I commented in your other thread, suggesting Iron Hands because of your love of Dreadnoughts - but if you're after a Knight Templar feel, I suggest my own army, The Black Templar (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Templars).

Even if you decide not to play them, and stick with making your own chapter, you can use their conversion kits I'd imagine. :)

Although, admittedly, we are by no means a "shooty" army. We like to get in and carve up heretics like jack-o-lanterns.

AvatarForm
20-02-2011, 02:04
Why not an Iron Hands Colour scheme and codex rules but using the bits from the Templar Upgrade?

homunkulus
20-02-2011, 02:15
I'm not really sure what the Warhammer community is like, but I'm relatively certain that you'll have at least one person come and attack your ideas for slighting their perceptions of the fluff. The only part of your background I can forsee giving you any trouble at all would be the crossing of other Imperial units. I don't know exactly how far space marines can go without repercussion, though I'm sure you'll be able to find people who can fill you in on that. Personally for me it fits with the zealous nature of the marines though.

In terms of physically building your army, the Templar idea already exists in the established space marines with the Black Templars (though not in the same way as you're envisioning it, they're on constant crusades to purge the galaxy rather than defend an area) I'd view this as a wholly positive thing as you get a decent model range to represent what you're going for with alternate heads, tabards and crosses aplenty. Theyre a bit older than the current Blood Angels, Space Wolves or even the Dark Angels models, but there are still some nice modeling opportunities.

Edit:
There are options for fielding six Dreadnoughts in the space marine codex isn't their? As elites and Heavy? I don't have a copy on hand, and it's not an army I play though, so I could definitely be wrong there.

AvatarForm
20-02-2011, 02:28
In terms of physically building your army, the Templar idea already exists in the established space marines with the Black Templars (though not in the same way as you're envisioning it, they're on constant crusades to purge the galaxy rather than defend an area) I'd view this as a wholly positive thing as you get a decent model range to represent what you're going for with alternate heads, tabards and crosses aplenty. Theyre a bit older than the current Blood Angels, Space Wolves or even the Dark Angels models, but there are still some nice modeling opportunities.

Edit:
There are options for fielding six Dreadnoughts in the space marine codex isn't their? As elites and Heavy? I don't have a copy on hand, and it's not an army I play though, so I could definitely be wrong there.

Expanding from homunkulus' points. If you field them with the Black Templar bits, just remember that the Imp Fists were the Founding chapter for them. Imp Fists specialised in Defence and fortification, whilst the Templars are on a constant crusade.

The defence element ties with your ideas. The Templar bits tie with your imagery.

At the end of the day, do you want it to be rules legal or a fluff piece?

Finally, its your army, your models... do what you want. Just ensure to make a thread and show us pics of what you are doing...

ForgottenLore
20-02-2011, 02:44
I have decided to go full-out and create my own home-grown Chapter of Space Marines,

Good for you! It is so much more fulfilling to create your own army that use the crutch of one of GW's own sub-factions.


the Templars Invictus (invictus being a Latin word for unbreakable or undefeatable, if I understand correctly). I want to base them, aesthetically anyway, on the Knights Templar that defended (or pillaged, depending on your point of view) Jerusalem during the Crusades.

That sounds like a great basis for an army. As a few have already pointed out, one of GW's chapters, The Black Templars, takes the crusading theme and runs with it. You will definitely want to look into their models for some of your iconography.

For the background you are envisioning (which sounds pretty good) you could decide to base your chapter on a Black Templar crusade leader that had the vision and broke with the Black Templars. It would be unusual for that to happen and not have one of the groups declared heretic but I can see it happening.

Overall, I think you have a really solid basis. Look into the background for the Black Templars and the Imperial Fists some and I think you will find lots of ideas.

Lothlanathorian
20-02-2011, 05:43
So far, your nascent Chapter's backstory sounds pretty nice. I actually had a similar idea (I am a history nerd and loved Crusades history/Knights Templar), but ended up going a different direction.

Using Black Templars bits (there is a GW plastic kit, Forgeworld bits and you can order the plastic bits individually from several internet retailers), but, painting the piebald crosses red, of course. There are MANY (see: a whole frelling lot) of Space Marines in robes and tabards.

And, Blood Angels can field up to 12 Dreadnoughts, but, half of that would require to take a HUGE unit of very expensive (points-wise and monetarily) guys. Regular Marines using Codex Space Marines can field 3, but, you get access to the Ironclad.

Jaraknarn
20-02-2011, 10:54
If anyone says anything about fighting other Imperial forces just say

"Dawn of War"

The last 2 expansions all have every Imperial force fighting every other Imperial forces because they have contradicting orders that say that THEY should be the ones to purge the planets. Its not unheard of, and its definiately not un-fluffy

HRM
20-02-2011, 10:59
Expanding from homunkulus' points. If you field them with the Black Templar bits, just remember that the Imp Fists were the Founding chapter for them. Imp Fists specialised in Defence and fortification, whilst the Templars are on a constant crusade.

The defence element ties with your ideas. The Templar bits tie with your imagery.

At the end of the day, do you want it to be rules legal or a fluff piece?

Finally, its your army, your models... do what you want. Just ensure to make a thread and show us pics of what you are doing...

See, this is why I came into this forum, you guys know your poop.

The Imperial Fists have that bad-ass yellow on them, and the Black Templars have the imagery I'm looking for. Hmm - red, white... and yellow? THAT would be hard to pull off. Sounds like a challenge! :D


And, Blood Angels can field up to 12 Dreadnoughts, but, half of that would require to take a HUGE unit of very expensive (points-wise and monetarily) guys. Regular Marines using Codex Space Marines can field 3, but, you get access to the Ironclad.

I think I want to play them as just "generic" Marines, rules-wise. Jind_Singh's thread about Ultramarines inspired me to "go normal", haha. But, I DO like the idea of the Templar group breaking off - I need to consult more fluff junkies to see how common this would be.

HRM
20-02-2011, 11:00
If anyone says anything about fighting other Imperial forces just say

"Dawn of War"

The last 2 expansions all have every Imperial force fighting every other Imperial forces because they have contradicting orders that say that THEY should be the ones to purge the planets. Its not unheard of, and its definiately not un-fluffy

Excellent! Something tells me this is a video game...? How "cannon" would that be?

Lothlanathorian
20-02-2011, 11:05
Everything is canon. Unless it isn't. There isn't anything that isn't. Also, everything you read might be true, unless it isn't.

That about sums up GW's official stance. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

Jaraknarn
20-02-2011, 11:05
Well theres been 2 games and about 5 expansions and they all center around 1 chapter the Blood Ravens, who are a GW cannon chapter. Im not sure about the community sentiment though.

Lothlanathorian
20-02-2011, 11:09
40K is 90% myth, 2% truth and 13% lies. Some of the myth may be lies and so may some of the truth, so there is some crossover.

And, remember, you have 10,000 years of room to work within.

Shamana
20-02-2011, 11:12
@ HRM: well, it's a quite popular video game - canon enough so GW has introduced the Blood Ravens chapter and one of their SM Commander minis has their symbol on the flag (red guy at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050240). They also merited a fairly long WD article, and some BL books.

Then again, as I see it when you have two imperial fractions at odds due to orders or another bureaucratic issue, all it takes is some punk with a vox-caster shouting "HERETIC" for the guns to start shooting. ;) .

Also, as far as I remember, you are better off sticking with the codex SMs if you like devastators - Black Templars don't have any and leave heavy support to the tanks.

A breakaway faction would be quite rare imo, but "quite rare" is a relative thing in the huge span of space and time covered by the Imperium. I think a full chapter, founded with Imperial Fist or Black Templar geneseed, is slightly more likely - but in the end, it's your army, and your fluff. IIRC founding new chapters is rare, but not unseen - for example, it could be done say to commemorate the sacrifice of 1-2 companies in a major battle (say, the defense of Castellum X from a massive heretical uprising with CSM and daemonic support), which might tie into the image you want to give your army. In a loosely-held empire covering most of the galaxy, pretty much anything is possible.

HRM
20-02-2011, 17:37
Everything is canon. Unless it isn't. There isn't anything that isn't. Also, everything you read might be true, unless it isn't.

That about sums up GW's official stance. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

I now have a headache. Or not.

The bearded one
20-02-2011, 18:32
If I recall correctly the witchhunters codex ( and the daemonhunter codex as well? ) still has a couple of pages in it with some stuff to justify fighting any faction, including imperial factions. Imperial forces can clash easily enough with eachother ( and more than half the codices are imperial so if imperium vs imperium hardly ever happens than we're breaking fluff in more than half of the games we play anyway )

As far as your fluff goes, it seems perfectly within the realm of 40K possibility, nothing out of the ordinary to be honest. They're not black templars, but have a templar'esqe fluff to them so in no way does it force them to be organised like black templars, especially because the black templars are crusading and your chapter protecting a specific area.

baphomael
20-02-2011, 18:46
Yea, Black Templars have the whole Templar image down, and that range offers you lots of bits n bobs to go with tour theme.

Imperial Fists would be a good founding Legion for your chapter to be drawn from - they largely use similar tactics and some of their successor chapters have that crusading theme going on (theres already at least two canon Templar chapters that I can think of off the top of my head, the Black and Red Templars).


As for the idea of an offshoot of the Black Templars, noted above, its a nice idea but I could forsee some fluff problems with that. Ideas of tradition, lineage and history are vitally important within the culture of Astartes chapters - they're fiercely proud of who they are and where they have come from.

While I see no problem with a Black Templar crusade setting up shop in a specific area of the galaxy (perhaps to act as wardens over a particularly important shrine world, or act as guardians over a pilgrimage route or something - its not unprecedented, crusading chapters have done it before eg Astral Claws) but the idea of them changing their name and separating themselves from their chapter seems a bit problematic - why would they want to do this? They'd need a really good reason to cut ties with the family they have been psycho-indoctrinated to love and regard above all else - an bond so strong a Marine would gladly give his own life rather than see his chapter's name besmirched. The Chapter is their entire identity and I cant really see why they'd want to reinvent themselves in this way (after all, to some Primarchs - particularly Dorn - even the idea of splitting the Legions into Chapters seemed unthinkable).

Lupe
20-02-2011, 18:55
As it's already been said, you can use Vanilla codex, the Imperial Fists as the founding Legion, and still throw in the occasional Black Templar bits and iconography on your army. {i.e. tabards, shields, banners)

An example of IF successor with BT heraldry would be the Iron Knights (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Knights). I'd recommend finding a new name and paint scheme along the same theme, though, since the Iron Knights' background might not match your idea.

Dreadnaughts and HB Devastators all feel very fluffy for a defensive army, especially an Imperial Fists successor. Imagine them holding the walls of a massive fortress, for instance, Kingdom of Heaven style.

HRM
20-02-2011, 19:33
As it's already been said, you can use Vanilla codex, the Imperial Fists as the founding Legion, and still throw in the occasional Black Templar bits and iconography on your army. {i.e. tabards, shields, banners)

An example of IF successor with BT heraldry would be the Iron Knights (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Knights). I'd recommend finding a new name and paint scheme along the same theme, though, since the Iron Knights' background might not match your idea.

Dreadnaughts and HB Devastators all feel very fluffy for a defensive army, especially an Imperial Fists successor. Imagine them holding the walls of a massive fortress, for instance, Kingdom of Heaven style.

Hmmm... The shield thing IS something I want to incorporate, but I sort of envisioned them being larger and replacing their backpacks.

I think I've settled, though, on Imperial Fists as the founding Chapter - they seem to fit! And yes, I've watched Kingdom of Heaven way too many times.

Jaraknarn
20-02-2011, 20:09
Cant wait for your Chapter Master Orlando Bloom Mini :p Haha

All this sounds Kushty mate! As to the splitting off, if thats the case y would any chapter split? Y are there second founding chapters? Its to do with numbers. The codex astartes says they can only be so big, so what they gonna do send them into hopeless conflicts to lower their numbers? or just forge a new chapter thats just as loyal to them as their own?

baphomael
20-02-2011, 20:13
Cant wait for your Chapter Master Orlando Bloom Mini :p Haha

All this sounds Kushty mate! As to the splitting off, if thats the case y would any chapter split? Y are there second founding chapters? Its to do with numbers. The codex astartes says they can only be so big, so what they gonna do send them into hopeless conflicts to lower their numbers? or just forge a new chapter thats just as loyal to them as their own?

Except the Black Templars dont give a jot about 'official' chapter size - they're split into autonomous 'Crusades' of varying size. Estimations put the Templars actual strength into the multiple-chapter scale.

Besides, it always seemed to me that successive foundings are started from scratch, as chapters wont really be creating new marines when they dont need to be.

Jaraknarn
20-02-2011, 21:06
Fair enough, but to my mind, that fractured nature would lead to more off shoot chapters, i think @NRM's idea for the chapter master having a dream given commission fits well with the zealous nature of the black templars.

HRM
20-02-2011, 23:12
I got home today with Codex: Space Marines, as well as the "Three In A Box" Tactical Marine set, so I'm gonna peruse the background to see if I can come up with a more "offical-like" origin to them - as well as experiment with paint schemes!

I really DO want to keep the dream thing, as corny as it may sound - I want the Templars Invictus to be as zealous, merciless and as "keep-to-themselves" as is plausible. I want them to be sort of untrusted, even by other Marines - but what I DON'T want (honestly) is for the backstory to be super-inconsistent with established "fluff". I want to fit into the setting, honestly - not re-write it!

I'll probably come back and lean on you guys some more in future! Cheers!

baphomael
21-02-2011, 01:35
I got home today with Codex: Space Marines, as well as the "Three In A Box" Tactical Marine set, so I'm gonna peruse the background to see if I can come up with a more "offical-like" origin to them - as well as experiment with paint schemes!

I really DO want to keep the dream thing, as corny as it may sound - I want the Templars Invictus to be as zealous, merciless and as "keep-to-themselves" as is plausible. I want them to be sort of untrusted, even by other Marines - but what I DON'T want (honestly) is for the backstory to be super-inconsistent with established "fluff". I want to fit into the setting, honestly - not re-write it!

I'll probably come back and lean on you guys some more in future! Cheers!

To be fair, all of that sounds entirely plausible in the setting - there are plenty of keep-themselves-to-themselves chapters (Dark Angels being notable for their secrecy, for example), and plenty who are are mistrusted or even treated with outright hostility. There is plenty of scope here.

From what you've posted so far, I cant really see any fluff-braking issues.

ForgottenLore
21-02-2011, 01:40
what I DON'T want (honestly) is for the backstory to be super-inconsistent with established "fluff". I want to fit into the setting, honestly - not re-write it!

Nothing you have listed for background seems at all out of line with existing fluff. If anything, it seems more tame than some attempts at custom chapters. No worries there at all I think.

On the subject of the dream from the Emperor thing, I was actually going to use a similar device for my own chapter (if I ever get around to doing it).

thewordofblake
21-02-2011, 01:45
Here's some beautiful yellow marines, imo

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5209786&postcount=195

As far as the yellow red white you were talkin about. And you deff sound like an Imperial Fist offspring, or Iron Hands, like others have mentioned.

Codex: Space Marines will let you take up to 6 Dreads, but you'll lose up to 3 HS slots to do so, which cuts into your HB Dev squads. Blood Angels will let you take up to 11 Dreads, 3 Elite, 5 Troop, 3 Heavy Support, so you could take, in theory, up to 8 and have 3 squads of Devs with Heavy Bolters. Space Wolves will let you take 4 Dreads, and doesn't affect your Long Fangs(Heavy Weapon Squads). Just to let ya know ;)

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 05:45
You can take 12 in Blood Angels, 6 as Troops, and 3 in Codex: Space Marines, all as Elites.

thewordofblake
21-02-2011, 07:42
You can take 12 in Blood Angels, 6 as Troops, and 3 in Codex: Space Marines, all as Elites.

You're silly and mistaken. :( But it's okay. Blood Angels let's you take 3 as Elite, 3 as Heavy Support, and up to 5 as Troops if you take 30 Death Company as well. Ultramarines (codex) can take 3 as elite, and 3 as heavy support if you take Master of the Forge. It's okay, not one of us is perfect. ;)

HRM
21-02-2011, 09:59
Here's some beautiful yellow marines, imo

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5209786&postcount=195

As far as the yellow red white you were talkin about. And you deff sound like an Imperial Fist offspring, or Iron Hands, like others have mentioned.

Codex: Space Marines will let you take up to 6 Dreads, but you'll lose up to 3 HS slots to do so, which cuts into your HB Dev squads. Blood Angels will let you take up to 11 Dreads, 3 Elite, 5 Troop, 3 Heavy Support, so you could take, in theory, up to 8 and have 3 squads of Devs with Heavy Bolters. Space Wolves will let you take 4 Dreads, and doesn't affect your Long Fangs(Heavy Weapon Squads). Just to let ya know ;)

That first guy, the dude with the Centurian-looking head...? He makes my pants tight. That looks WAY better than the pedantic, predictable, pedestrian color schemes I had envisioned.

I think I'm going to just stick with Codex: Space Marines for now... After seeing the "Ultramarines Organization" charts I have dreams of collecting an entire Company's worth!

HRM
21-02-2011, 10:02
Nothing you have listed for background seems at all out of line with existing fluff. If anything, it seems more tame than some attempts at custom chapters. No worries there at all I think.

On the subject of the dream from the Emperor thing, I was actually going to use a similar device for my own chapter (if I ever get around to doing it).

What I really need to do, is find out what spurs the founding of a new Chapter. The codex sort of... Doesn't really specify, so far at least. I'm sure they don't just randomly say "Whelp, time for some more super-soldiers!"

Shamana
21-02-2011, 10:34
It may be just that, actually. Although given the amount it takes to actually create a chapter - you need instructors from other chapters, you need to stockpile all the weapons/guns/ships the chapter needs, to arrange them to have a workable base, etc - you need to think long-term about it. It is usually done in "foundings (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding)", where several chapters are created simultaneously. As per the lexicanum (which one should take with a grain of salt, mind you), if several chapters of SMs get (nearly) wiped out by a particularly nasty war, you may get a founding to replace them so the total number stays at a thousand. Give or take a few, of course :) . Even if you cannibalize the resources of any recently wiped out (or nearly so) chapters that the new ones should replace, it still takes a lot of time and effort.

For an example of a heroic sacrifice that may call for a founding, check out the story of the Astral Knights (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astral_Knights).

Wade Wilson
21-02-2011, 11:04
Codex Space Marines is probably your best bet if starting a chapter from scratch. as for minitures, Templars Invictus marines could do with a mix of the Black Templar models and perhaps the hooded/robed Dark Angel Veterans? Good luck with this!

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 11:18
You're silly and mistaken. :( But it's okay. Blood Angels let's you take 3 as Elite, 3 as Heavy Support, and up to 5 as Troops if you take 30 Death Company as well. Ultramarines (codex) can take 3 as elite, and 3 as heavy support if you take Master of the Forge. It's okay, not one of us is perfect. ;)

30 divided by 5 is....5:confused: You're silly and bad at math, but it's okay :p
And, if you field Astorath, you can have 36 DC Dreads, plus the 3 Elite and 3 Heavy Support ones :evilgrin:

You totally have me on the MotF, though. I completely forgot about him lol.

shadowhawk2008
21-02-2011, 14:48
What I really need to do, is find out what spurs the founding of a new Chapter. The codex sort of... Doesn't really specify, so far at least. I'm sure they don't just randomly say "Whelp, time for some more super-soldiers!"

Check out this thread for some ideas to spur you on for the background of how your chapter came to be:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289787

Sai-Lauren
21-02-2011, 15:53
Nothing you have listed for background seems at all out of line with existing fluff. If anything, it seems more tame than some attempts at custom chapters. No worries there at all I think.

Agreed - anyone else remember the Stealth Marines? :eek:

(Something that got posted on the GW forums back when they existed - to say they were overpowered would be like saying jumping in the sea makes you a little bit damp).

To the OP: the Space Marine codex is a good starting point, if you have a local GW store, then have a look through their store copy of the Black Templars one as well to see if they appeal.

If you can find someone with copies, it might also be useful to look through Imperial Armour 9 and 10 to get more ideas - there's a lot of detail of quite a few chapters in there. However, please do not take this as a suggestion to buy them yourself unless you really want them - they are expensive.


It may be just that, actually. Although given the amount it takes to actually create a chapter - you need instructors from other chapters, you need to stockpile all the weapons/guns/ships the chapter needs, to arrange them to have a workable base, etc - you need to think long-term about it. It is usually done in "foundings (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding)", where several chapters are created simultaneously.

My personal feeling is that when a founding is initiated by the High Lords of Terra, a number of chapters are chosen to create one new chapter each. Each then splits out a small number of officers (including the new chapters Master, who'd probably be an eventual candidate for Chapter Master anyway), specialists and regular marines/scouts, reconsecrated into their new chapters livery and name, then sent to wherever they're going to operate from with their weapons, armour and not much else - maybe they'd have a couple of escort class vessels to transport them, but certainly not a Battle Barge.

Some new chapters may also have perform a quest on their way - such as salvaging an adrift battle barge to use as their flagship, or conquering their recruitment world and returning it to the Imperium, that kind of thing.

Once in place, they'll have to build their fortress-monastary, recruit and train new initiates, start building new armour, weapons and ammunition etc, before they're even considered ready to go to active duty - at which point the forges might just have enough time and personnel to start building the higher tech/more labour intensive items like armoured vehicles and Terminator Armour. (I've created my own second chapter which is designed around that idea, but they've been forced into action before they're ready - so lots of scouts, a few Marines and no higher tech).

thewordofblake
21-02-2011, 16:20
30 divided by 5 is....5:confused: You're silly and bad at math, but it's okay :p
And, if you field Astorath, you can have 36 DC Dreads, plus the 3 Elite and 3 Heavy Support ones :evilgrin:

You totally have me on the MotF, though. I completely forgot about him lol.

Oh I'm plenty good at math, and it's not your multiplication or division that's wrong. It's that you are limited to 6 Troop Choices in a standard game. You are right, 30 DC would allow you up to 6 DC Dreads, if you had the FoC to allow for it, say non-standard game, or apoc. So in a standard game, you'd be looking at 130 Recilsiarch, 375-3x Furioso, 500-25 DC, 625-5x DC Dread, 315-3xDread. 1945 points to run 11 Dreads before wargear and weapons. In a standard game following the standard force organization chart.

With the DC dreads, the first pre-requisite for taking one, is that you have to have 5 DC Marines that haven't been counted towards another DCDread. The second requirement is that you have a Troop Slot available for it. Thirdly, you have to have the available points to spend on said Dread. :) Regardless, 11 Dreads is a monster of a list.


@HRM - Yeah, Dave's yellow is one of my favorite yellows I've seen in my 10 years in the hobby. I dislike the obnoxious bright yellow most do their Imperial Fists in. And on top of that, it's "hard to do right" so most of the time it comes out looking like crap, but you can't improve your skill if you don't keep doing it. :)

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 18:27
With the DC dreads, the first pre-requisite for taking one, is that you have to have 5 DC Marines that haven't been counted towards another DCDread. The second requirement is that you have a Troop Slot available for it. Thirdly, you have to have the available points to spend on said Dread. :) Regardless, 11 Dreads is a monster of a list.

Where does it say they use up a Troop shot each individually? It says you may take one for every 5 DC, no where in the Codex does it say 'based on availability of FOC slots'. So, 30 DC = 6 DC Dreads, which are all under one Troops choice together, but not a squadron. Well, two choices, one for DC and one for the DC Dreads.

Whitwort Stormbringer
22-02-2011, 01:50
You've probably already had a look through the GW online store, but in case you haven't I thought I'd go ahead and point out that there are marine bits aplenty with the "templar" feel to them.

In both the Black Templar (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060205) and Dark Angel (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod900140a) conversion frames there are several bodies that are wearing either robes or tabards, as well as hooded heads and plenty of sword and cross iconography. You could also get some of the metal veterans from those ranges for some of your elites (if you don't end up filling all the elite spots with Dreads, that is).

The Emperor's Champion (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060203) would probably make a great army general, veteran sergeant, etc.

Since the Grey Knights are due for an update soon, and typically they also get a bit of the knights templar look, you might consider incorporating some of their bits into your army.

Lastly, I doubt anyone would mind if you mixed some WFB Bretonnian bits in here and there to strengthen the theme - especially using the knights' heads on a marine here or there.

eBay is a good place to find plastic bits, and there are a couple of online retailers that cut bits from the sprue as well.

Sounds like an awesome army!

New Cult King
22-02-2011, 02:06
Black and yellow is a sharp colour scheme. Apart from the Scythes of the Emperor, not many chapters use this scheme.

HRM
22-02-2011, 20:29
You've probably already had a look through the GW online store, but in case you haven't I thought I'd go ahead and point out that there are marine bits aplenty with the "templar" feel to them.

In both the Black Templar (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060205) and Dark Angel (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod900140a) conversion frames there are several bodies that are wearing either robes or tabards, as well as hooded heads and plenty of sword and cross iconography. You could also get some of the metal veterans from those ranges for some of your elites (if you don't end up filling all the elite spots with Dreads, that is).

The Emperor's Champion (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060203) would probably make a great army general, veteran sergeant, etc.

Since the Grey Knights are due for an update soon, and typically they also get a bit of the knights templar look, you might consider incorporating some of their bits into your army.

Lastly, I doubt anyone would mind if you mixed some WFB Bretonnian bits in here and there to strengthen the theme - especially using the knights' heads on a marine here or there.

eBay is a good place to find plastic bits, and there are a couple of online retailers that cut bits from the sprue as well.

Sounds like an awesome army!

The Emperor's Champion will likely be in my force (the model, I mean) and the BT Chapter Upgrade will DEFINITELY be in my shopping cart!

HRM
23-02-2011, 01:14
Check out this thread for some ideas to spur you on for the background of how your chapter came to be:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289787


For an example of a heroic sacrifice that may call for a founding, check out the story of the Astral Knights (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astral_Knights).

Interesting stuff.

OK. After going through a bit of the Codex: Space Marines background section, and taking into account all the opinions of my fellow Warseers, I've come up with a fledgling background for my fledgling chapter.

They WERE Black Templars, to start. They started off as, say, the 3rd Company - I don't know how BT organization works compared to Codex Marines, so all I can go off of is the Codex book. So anyway, yeah, they were Black Templars, who were assigned to purge this particular set of close planets - like, close as in Earth and Mars close - plus their moons (I have no name for the system yet), of an invasion from (Orks or Tyranids, I haven't decided yet).

So, on the eve of battle, the invasion force turns out to be WAY bigger than anticipated - this doesn't particularly bother the Templars, as they aren't mere wimpy humans, but it DOES look fairly hopeless. Their Company Captain, one Hazelius Santos, recieves what he believes to be a personal message from the ol' Emperor Himself, in the form of a dream, telling him to defend the people of (insert system name here) to the last man, and just as important, to defend this one particular mountain range, as there's something - ominous voice here - ancient and powerful inside the caverns.

So, when the (Orks or Tyranids) come, the Black Templars defend this one mountain pass for 4 or 5 days, 300-style, never giving ground. Eventually, the Imperial Guard and some Imperial Fist Marines arrive to save their butts... But the Black Templars are almost all wiped out. Only Captain Santos, around 20 Devastators and three Dreadnaughts are left, out of a whole company.

So, what did ol' Hazelius find in the caverns? The BTs wouldn't say, but whatever it was, it was whisked off by the Imperium higher-ups... Leading the High Lords to declare these particular Templars "unbreakable and undefeatable" and using them as the basis for a new Chapter, hence the name... Templars Invictus! Captain Santos, of course, is the new Chapter Master, and Imperial Fist geneseed is used to create them. Many other Marines mistrust them and their entire creation, especially as no-one will say what was found in the mountains, and how the heck did such a relatively new Company Captain get elevated to Chapter Master?

Well? Foolish, implausible? Asinine? Or moderately cool? And New Cult King... I think I WILL take your advice on that yellow-and-black color scheme!

baphomael
23-02-2011, 02:17
Interesting stuff.

OK. After going through a bit of the Codex: Space Marines background section, and taking into account all the opinions of my fellow Warseers, I've come up with a fledgling background for my fledgling chapter.

They WERE Black Templars, to start. They started off as, say, the 3rd Company - I don't know how BT organization works compared to Codex Marines, so all I can go off of is the Codex book. So anyway, yeah, they were Black Templars, who were assigned to purge this particular set of close planets - like, close as in Earth and Mars close - plus their moons (I have no name for the system yet), of an invasion from (Orks or Tyranids, I haven't decided yet).

Templars dont use the normal Codex Astartes 'company' system. Rather, they're split into fleet-based "Crusades", led by a Marshall. These vary in size from being fairly analogous to a Codex Company, to having multiple companies worth of marines. Likewise, the exact makeup of each crusade will vary - they dont stick to the Codex at all (for example, neophyte marines accompany battle brothers like squires, being taught the skills of war in the thick of it, rather than being formed into scout companies). Nobody really knows how many Crusades there are dotted about the galaxy, as each crusade is fairly autonomous and left to go about smiting stuff as they see fit, but there are in all probability waay more templars than the codex allows for a chapter - probably double, or even triple chapter size. The Crusades are left to their own recruitment practices and nobody really keeps tabs on the overall strength.


So, on the eve of battle, the invasion force turns out to be WAY bigger than anticipated - this doesn't particularly bother the Templars, as they aren't mere wimpy humans, but it DOES look fairly hopeless. Their Company Captain, one Hazelius Santos, recieves what he believes to be a personal message from the ol' Emperor Himself, in the form of a dream, telling him to defend the people of (insert system name here) to the last man, and just as important, to defend this one particular mountain range, as there's something - ominous voice here - ancient and powerful inside the caverns.

Sounds OK, the Emperor moves in mysterious ways afterall.


So, when the (Orks or Tyranids) come, the Black Templars defend this one mountain pass for 4 or 5 days, 300-style, never giving ground. Eventually, the Imperial Guard and some Imperial Fist Marines arrive to save their butts... But the Black Templars are almost all wiped out. Only Captain Santos, around 20 Devastators and three Dreadnaughts are left, out of a whole company.

I'm not sure, I cant remember fully and its been a long time since I've read the Templar codex, but something in the back of my mind is telling me that the Templars dont really field dedicated devastators... I'm not sure if thats my memory playing tricks, but I await to be corrected if I'm wrong on that one.


So, what did ol' Hazelius find in the caverns? The BTs wouldn't say, but whatever it was, it was whisked off by the Imperium higher-ups... Leading the High Lords to declare these particular Templars "unbreakable and undefeatable" and using them as the basis for a new Chapter, hence the name... Templars Invictus! Captain Santos, of course, is the new Chapter Master, and Imperial Fist geneseed is used to create them. Many other Marines mistrust them and their entire creation, especially as no-one will say what was found in the mountains, and how the heck did such a relatively new Company Captain get elevated to Chapter Master?

Well? Foolish, implausible? Asinine? Or moderately cool? And New Cult King... I think I WILL take your advice on that yellow-and-black color scheme!

Sounds plausible, if the founding of a new chapter has been ordained from on high.

ForgottenLore
23-02-2011, 03:34
I like it. Pulls off the "used to be crusading Black Templars" bit without having them actually need to break away from them or anything.

Nice level of mystery in the background.

Since whatever was in the mountain was removed, that creates an absolutely PERFECT location for their chapter monastery (based on crusade era castle no doubt) and new homeworld.

As has been said, Black Templars don't adhere to the standard organizations pattern and a crusade can kinda be as big as you want so you can just pick a number that was in the crusade originally. go small to emphasize the heroic lost cause struggle or go bigger to emphasize how many casualties they took and kept fighting.

Looking through the BT codex, BTs do not themselves field devastators, so it might be problematic having it be actual devestators that were left after the battle, possibly just have it be heavy weapon guys? Anyway, having devastators included in your successor chapter is no problem at all, obviously their new role as defenders of a specific area warrants a change in tactics and a greater reliance on heavy weapons.

HRM
23-02-2011, 09:29
I'm not sure, I cant remember fully and its been a long time since I've read the Templar codex, but something in the back of my mind is telling me that the Templars dont really field dedicated devastators... I'm not sure if thats my memory playing tricks, but I await to be corrected if I'm wrong on that one.



I like it. Pulls off the "used to be crusading Black Templars" bit without having them actually need to break away from them or anything.

Nice level of mystery in the background.

Since whatever was in the mountain was removed, that creates an absolutely PERFECT location for their chapter monastery (based on crusade era castle no doubt) and new homeworld.

As has been said, Black Templars don't adhere to the standard organizations pattern and a crusade can kinda be as big as you want so you can just pick a number that was in the crusade originally. go small to emphasize the heroic lost cause struggle or go bigger to emphasize how many casualties they took and kept fighting.

Looking through the BT codex, BTs do not themselves field devastators, so it might be problematic having it be actual devestators that were left after the battle, possibly just have it be heavy weapon guys? Anyway, having devastators included in your successor chapter is no problem at all, obviously their new role as defenders of a specific area warrants a change in tactics and a greater reliance on heavy weapons.

OK. Cool. I'll change that bit about the Devastators, thanks a bunch, guys! We'll say that, ya, it was a couple heavy weapon guys, along with the Captain, the Dreads and, uh, I guess a basic Tactical Squad or two. The reason I want their foes to be a horde-style foe, Orks or 'Nids, is because I want to field lots of heavy bolters and maybe some flamers, too, as I like the model for the heavy bolter guy.

The one problem I have with my own backstory, after thinking on it a bit, is that, as written, since Santos & Co. actually found something in the mountainside, it means he must have legitimately been "spoken to" by the Emperor, rather than just being delusional. So, I thought maybe what he actually found was a piece of alien tech, designed to psychically implant "suggestions" in your mind... Causing Santos to THINK he was speaking to the Emperor. This would also explain why the High Lords snatched it up so quick, and why their's so much mystery - even the Templars Invictus themselves, to this day, don't know the truth!

Thoughts?

baphomael
23-02-2011, 15:04
OK. Cool. I'll change that bit about the Devastators, thanks a bunch, guys! We'll say that, ya, it was a couple heavy weapon guys, along with the Captain, the Dreads and, uh, I guess a basic Tactical Squad or two. The reason I want their foes to be a horde-style foe, Orks or 'Nids, is because I want to field lots of heavy bolters and maybe some flamers, too, as I like the model for the heavy bolter guy.

The one problem I have with my own backstory, after thinking on it a bit, is that, as written, since Santos & Co. actually found something in the mountainside, it means he must have legitimately been "spoken to" by the Emperor, rather than just being delusional. So, I thought maybe what he actually found was a piece of alien tech, designed to psychically implant "suggestions" in your mind... Causing Santos to THINK he was speaking to the Emperor. This would also explain why the High Lords snatched it up so quick, and why their's so much mystery - even the Templars Invictus themselves, to this day, don't know the truth!

Thoughts?

Also, bear in mind their their basic squads dont fit the codex astartes pattern for tactical squads either - they can be larger than a normal squad and can incorporate neophytes (scouts being mixed into marine squads, rather than being in scout squads). Just something to think about.

Shamana
23-02-2011, 17:39
Well, there could be some fluff about how effective static defenses and ranged combat proved in thinning the hordes before battle joined, which led to a renewed appreciation for the effectiveness of devastator marines and other Codex Astartes ideas.

As for having spoken to the Emperor... Well, that's the PR version they would give, so to speak. Perhaps he just had an inspiration for the battle, then found a relic by chance and decided to use it - it was a sign of the Emperor's blessing, after all. Or perhaps it was all true - who is to say what is possible for the Emperor of Mankind, and what not?

Lupe
23-02-2011, 17:58
Well, it is 40K. The Emperor may or may not be an actual god, capable of choosing champions and interacting with them. So I don't see why a legitimate message from the Emperor isn't an option. A direct advice from the big E would certainly explain why Santos was so quick to adopt the Codex structure (devastators, tacticals, librarians, if you ever field one)

But there's ways you can spin it any way you like. Maybe he was just latently psychic and escaped the Black Templars' screenings when he was recruited. Maybe, if it was a particularly world changing 'something' on that world, he picked up clues along the way, and his subconscious just connected the dots and chose the Emperor's image to tell him. Maybe it really was a xenos relic messing with his mind. Maybe he was just delirious from failing implants. The possibilities are endless...

ForgottenLore
23-02-2011, 18:04
I don't think you should explain where the dream/vision came from, just that SOMETHING seems to have directed him there and he assumed it was the Emperor. Maybe it was. Or maybe it was Tzeentch, or the Deciever, or an Eldar Farseer, or the last of the Old Ones, or those bad sardines he had for dinner.

If you really want something to suggest it might have been a false vision but he still found something, put an old, small, not very important imperial shrine in the mountains. Did he really have a vision saying to protect the shrine, or was it just a self deluded feeling they should make a last stand on this planet and the shrine was subconsciously added to the "vision" and just coincidentally happened to be there for a reason.

Did that make sense? Made sense in my head, but I'm not sure it came out very well.

HRM
23-02-2011, 21:05
I don't think you should explain where the dream/vision came from, just that SOMETHING seems to have directed him there and he assumed it was the Emperor. Maybe it was. Or maybe it was Tzeentch, or the Deciever, or an Eldar Farseer, or the last of the Old Ones, or those bad sardines he had for dinner.

If you really want something to suggest it might have been a false vision but he still found something, put an old, small, not very important imperial shrine in the mountains. Did he really have a vision saying to protect the shrine, or was it just a self deluded feeling they should make a last stand on this planet and the shrine was subconsciously added to the "vision" and just coincidentally happened to be there for a reason.

Did that make sense? Made sense in my head, but I'm not sure it came out very well.

Well to be honest, I actually LIKE the idea of the "Big E" speaking directly to him, in fact as well as metaphor - I was just under the impression that Marines don't venerate the Emperor as a literal "God", as they themselves pre-date the Ecchlisiarchy (spelling?), so I worried that this would be too far out of the realm of plausible.

MajorWesJanson
23-02-2011, 21:39
Well to be honest, I actually LIKE the idea of the "Big E" speaking directly to him, in fact as well as metaphor - I was just under the impression that Marines don't venerate the Emperor as a literal "God", as they themselves pre-date the Ecchlisiarchy (spelling?), so I worried that this would be too far out of the realm of plausible.

Emperor's Champions in the Black Templars are said to have visions from the Emperor, that is what leads to their selection. Perhaps there was an Emperor's Champion in the force, who is now a High Chaplain in the new chapter?

As for the Devastators, it could be that the Captain ordered as many Heavy bolters issued as he could, turning Tac squads into defacto Devastator squads, with the neophytes supporting them with ammo and target locating. The sucess means that the new chapter sees the use of Devastators and adds them to their roster.

baphomael
23-02-2011, 21:42
Well to be honest, I actually LIKE the idea of the "Big E" speaking directly to him, in fact as well as metaphor - I was just under the impression that Marines don't venerate the Emperor as a literal "God", as they themselves pre-date the Ecchlisiarchy (spelling?), so I worried that this would be too far out of the realm of plausible.

Some do, some dont. Mostly, Marines dont venerate him as a god, rather something closer to ancestor veneration and hero-worship. However, there are chapters that do view him as a God - afterall, the only recorded marine left alive from the time of the Heresy is Bjorn the Fell Handed, the Space Wolf dreadnought. While some chapters will continue the tradition of not viewing the Emp as a god, others will not have existed at the time to *know* that the Emp was, at one point, a man (albeit, one who was immortal and essentially godlike anyways).

Some chapters might view him as having always been a god. Others might believe that the Big E transcended into godhood, an apotheosis occuring after his duel with horus and internment into the throne. The galaxy is a big place, and the Imperium so diverse there is room for both fluffwise.

For what its worth, if I was around in the 40k universe, even with my outsiders knowledge, I'd probably venerate the Emp as a god - I mean, he has frickin' Saints... ones that actually, directly, physically intercede in ways that put real world saints to shame.

HRM
24-02-2011, 01:09
Some do, some dont. Mostly, Marines dont venerate him as a god, rather something closer to ancestor veneration and hero-worship. However, there are chapters that do view him as a God - afterall, the only recorded marine left alive from the time of the Heresy is Bjorn the Fell Handed, the Space Wolf dreadnought. While some chapters will continue the tradition of not viewing the Emp as a god, others will not have existed at the time to *know* that the Emp was, at one point, a man (albeit, one who was immortal and essentially godlike anyways).

Some chapters might view him as having always been a god. Others might believe that the Big E transcended into godhood, an apotheosis occuring after his duel with horus and internment into the throne. The galaxy is a big place, and the Imperium so diverse there is room for both fluffwise.

For what its worth, if I was around in the 40k universe, even with my outsiders knowledge, I'd probably venerate the Emp as a god - I mean, he has frickin' Saints... ones that actually, directly, physically intercede in ways that put real world saints to shame.

Excellent. Literal vision from the Emperor it was, then!

Who was it said to have their fortress in the mountainside? Great idea, I'm stealing that one. I need to get the rulebook next (for obvious gaming reasons, ha) but also to get a better sense of 40K's general backstory, and not just Marine background.

I've taken a few pictures of my Marines-in-painting - maybe I'll do a project log.

You guys are all awesome. Major props, guys!

baphomael
24-02-2011, 03:39
Excellent. Literal vision from the Emperor it was, then!

Who was it said to have their fortress in the mountainside? Great idea, I'm stealing that one. I need to get the rulebook next (for obvious gaming reasons, ha) but also to get a better sense of 40K's general backstory, and not just Marine background.

I've taken a few pictures of my Marines-in-painting - maybe I'll do a project log.

You guys are all awesome. Major props, guys!

No worries. Try checking something like the Lexicanum website - the Wikipedia of 40k while you wait for official fluff sources. It contains a fair bit of useful fluff, but as a caveat it does also contain some older fluff that may or may not, or outright is, outdated. Again, as a wiki type affair it does also have some outright errors and occasionally some unnofficial fan-assumptions or fan filling-in-the-gaps, but largely its got a broad spectrum of fluff from the stuff you'll find in rulebooks to black library and all sorts. To get a grasp of the universe, while you wait, it could be quite interesting for ya.

Carlosophy
24-02-2011, 07:10
I really like your idea because you seem to be doing it from a love of the fluff and/or models perspective as opposed to direct in-game effectiveness. My one request is never stray from this path!

An Iron Hands Forgefather from C:SM enables you to take up to 6 dreadnoughts instead of the usual 3, but I would suggest going down the Black Templars route for conversions and then maybe wait for their proper codex before deciding on which army you like better.

HRM
24-02-2011, 09:12
I really like your idea because you seem to be doing it from a love of the fluff and/or models perspective as opposed to direct in-game effectiveness. My one request is never stray from this path!

An Iron Hands Forgefather from C:SM enables you to take up to 6 dreadnoughts instead of the usual 3, but I would suggest going down the Black Templars route for conversions and then maybe wait for their proper codex before deciding on which army you like better.

I'm actually going to stick with just regular Codex Marines, tell you the truth. There's already a lot of Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Angels In The Outfield armies around here... And I always did like the flavor vanilla. :D

Rai_st
24-02-2011, 17:03
It sounds really cool - like many people have already said the Black Templar sprue is going to be your friend. I field Dreadnought's all the time and they can do really good things for you.