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View Full Version : So, what do you think about new Grey Knights?



sidcom
20-02-2011, 10:02
Im just interested in peoples opinions

Lothlanathorian
20-02-2011, 10:07
They aren't out yet, so no one thinks anything.

sidcom
20-02-2011, 10:16
I disagree, there is lot of info out there already for people to make some image of final product

TheWarmaster
20-02-2011, 10:39
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

Lothlanathorian
20-02-2011, 10:39
And this thread, like all the others, will be closed if we talk about it because it will deviate towards discussion of the 'leaked' .pdf. If you want to discuss the rumors, well, there is an entire other forum on Warseer for that, making this thread redundant, which will lead to its being closed.

Worsle
20-02-2011, 10:48
I disagree, there is lot of info out there already for people to make some image of final product


There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

I think this proves there is not. People are taking snippets they have not even read, take out of context and sensationalised. Also really caved his name on Mortarion's heart does not sound like something people should take literally.

Though really until we have a good idea of what the weapons stats are, particularity the psycannons we can't get a clear picture of the codex. If they stay the same then we have codex =I= with maybe one or two grey knights tagging along. If they got better, one rumour was for S7 and rending, then we might have a viable force on our hands.

Boss Zagstruk
20-02-2011, 10:55
Id love to know what a p slencer is and to hear more about there wargear. On the hole im very excited. This release is actually gettin me back into 40K ive been looking for an excuse for a long time but never followed through with it. I always regret selling my daemon hunters army.Its going to be a very good release in my opinion. Im just excited to see what metal characters they release.

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 11:08
My one hope for the new models, from the images that got leaked ages ago, is that the walker/power-suit thing they have eventually makes its way into Codex: Sisters of Battle or whatever is getting done with them, as a replacement for the penitent engine.

Also that it ends up with a proper Imperial supertech aesthetic rather than some out-of-place "looted Transformer" bit; it's very hard to tell from such a blurry photo.

overlordofnobodies
20-02-2011, 11:25
What I what to now is what happen to the Grey knight in the Rumour Discussion? They all have been close and no news ones have been open.

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 11:53
What I what to now is what happen to the Grey knight in the Rumour Discussion? They all have been close and no news ones have been open.
What happened is that someone leaked a play-test version of the GK codex and, well, that was pretty much it for rational discussion of "rumours" - I wasn't paying that much attention since the release is so far off compared to the Orcs next month - but I understand that someone may have even posted a link, which is one of the worst things you can do around here.

Lord Damocles
20-02-2011, 12:00
...and given that any further discussion of 'rumours' is almost certain to refer to the contents of the [supposedly] leaked codex, starting new threads on the topic doesn't seem like a great idea since they'll just end up locked/deleted anyway.

Raellos
20-02-2011, 12:53
So no access to the Grey Knights thread first post? Just deleted for good, not even ctrl+c and locked in the Rumour Round-up sub-forum? It's a bit disappointing.

SockMonkey
20-02-2011, 13:06
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

This. This x1000. the next codex will see this inquisitor skull ****** khorne and it makes me a sad panda.

kasrkinsquad
20-02-2011, 13:12
From the rumors I read I am fairly disappointed in the book. I have the old Daemonhunters book and was hoping to start them this year but the focus on Grey Knights is annoying especially since I enjoy the Inquisition part of the book. I also like the allies rule but that was removed too.

All in all I will buy the book to check it out but I expect to be disappointed.

Also the fluff rumors I have been hearing are depressingly bad and make me not want to buy the book period.

Fear is the mind killer
20-02-2011, 13:49
Oh no not mooooaarr space marines.

Any other opinions will have to wait until I have something else to complain about. :)

Personally I think a codex Inquisition would have been much better. Makes more sense to combine different ordo militants than it does to combine different gods' daemons.

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 14:04
Yeah it does seem weird that this appears to be a codex about the Grey Knights Chapter in the same way C: BA is about the Blood Angels Chapter rather than a book about the inquisition which happens to have some Grey Knights in it....I find myself rather conflicted because I was originally opposed to the whole idea of having GKs as an independent army in the first place, back when the old daemon hunters book came out, but I also like the idea of getting more background on the Knights of Titan, as long as it's not too ridiculous.

As such I'm just going to mutter about whipper-snappers and lawns and maybe hope a little that the Sisters of Battle get a similarly focussed codex. Again.

tangomegadeath
20-02-2011, 14:10
What happened is that someone leaked a play-test version of the GK codex and, well, that was pretty much it for rational discussion of "rumours" - I wasn't paying that much attention since the release is so far off compared to the Orcs next month - but I understand that someone may have even posted a link, which is one of the worst things you can do around here.


...and given that any further discussion of 'rumours' is almost certain to refer to the contents of the [supposedly] leaked codex, starting new threads on the topic doesn't seem like a great idea since they'll just end up locked/deleted anyway.


So no access to the Grey Knights thread first post? Just deleted for good, not even ctrl+c and locked in the Rumour Round-up sub-forum? It's a bit disappointing.



Given that the first post had basically the whole codex in it I can't see the harm or indeed the difference in discussing the leaked codex (which is incomplete anyway).
Several other forums have a discussion thread - posts that link to the pdf are just removed and I agree with this.

Frankly, I feel the mods/admin have made a mistake here.
That leaked pdf is out there and isn't going away.
Pretending that it doesn't exist or worrying about a questionable IP infringment when discussing it seems ludicrous given that I can go to, say, dakka dakka, and discuss it to my hearts content.
I understand that Warseer wants to encourage good relations with GW and I support this but I just can't see the logic in making what seems to be a knee-jerk reaction and driving people to other forums.

What significant difference is there between "rationally" discussing a staff leaked pdf and a staff leaked rumour?

Maybe I missed something??? :confused:


*****note to mods/admins - this isn't a dig, I just don't get it :) *****


Back on topic, I think they look OK.
Like others I'm disappointed that they didn't roll all the ordos into one codex and I have a bad feeling that the Ordo Xenos will get missed out again. :cries:
Simple solution would be to put an inquisitor into C:SM and allow sternguard as a troops choice to represent Deathwatch.

I am glad they put Inquisitors in this codex though.

Too bad there is no way to get a BS4 stromtrooper though :mad:

d6juggernaut
20-02-2011, 14:42
I know it's a bit too early to pass judgment but, Psylencer? Dreadnight? I don't think I can take Grey Knights seriously anymore

Korraz
20-02-2011, 14:47
Since I really stopped caring, I find them pretty damn hilarious. Waltzing through the warp, burning down Nurgle's garden, burying M'kachen, slapping around Mortarion like a little bitch, go go Grand Greatest High Chapter Grandmaster Draigo!
Calgar gets his spotlight too. And I for one welcome our Xenos Inquisitor Brothers and new orange furred Overlords in the Demonhunter codex.

40k is back to pardoy. A pardoy that thinks it is serious, but a parody nontheless.

Sarevok
20-02-2011, 15:09
I think that if you say Grey Knights on Warseer the thread suddenly dissape

Inquisitor_Tolheim
20-02-2011, 15:16
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

It's the head of the GK, not some inquisitor. I still think it's a bad bit of fluff, but I actually agree with Worsle here: read it FIRST, then criticize as necessary.

Also in fairness, the rest of the fluff is not nearly as bad. I like the blurb for Coteaz, which actually develops his character towards interesting places, and aside from some silly wargear/names the Xenos inquisitor has a pretty good fluff base too. I want the finished product in hand before I form a final opinion, but based on what I have seen there are more hits then misses in the book fluffwise, Calgar one-upmanship excepted.


I know it's a bit too early to pass judgment but, Psylencer? Dreadnight? I don't think I can take Grey Knights seriously anymore

It's a marine book. Silly names have pretty much become the norm. Don't forget the "nemesis doomfist"

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 15:26
I think the head office just like silly names for wargear; Blood this, Wolf that, Nemesis everything!
Hopefully there's a common anti-daemon thread running through the special rules for all of this nemesis gear, like ignoring invulnerable saves or doing extra damage to psykers and/or daemons or something.

Infidel
20-02-2011, 15:35
Believe me, as a daemon player, when the entire force is coming at me with Preferred Enemy (Daemons) and toting stupid things like Stern and Warp Quake and the likes, there is already very little point in actually playing a game against GK and the last thing we need is not getting EW or invuln against NFW.

If we don't autolose the game due to Warp Quake already, then save-ignoring gun and save-ignoring MC killing basic troops would do it.

Sarevok
20-02-2011, 15:37
Believe me, as a daemon player, when the entire force is coming at me with Preferred Enemy (Daemons) and toting stupid things like Stern and Warp Quake and the likes, there is already very little point in actually playing a game against GK and the last thing we need is not getting EW or invuln against NFW.

If we don't autolose the game due to Warp Quake already, then save-ignoring gun and save-ignoring MC killing basic troops would do it.

serve you right for playing a crap army like daemons
why not play a real man's army like Blood Angels or Space Wolves

Eddiethehott
20-02-2011, 15:57
I like it personally. I like the ability to basically field two completely different armies with one codex. First tho, I will be running Grey Knights, as I loves me some elites.

Killgore
20-02-2011, 15:58
Believe me, as a daemon player, when the entire force is coming at me with Preferred Enemy (Daemons) and toting stupid things like Stern and Warp Quake and the likes, there is already very little point in actually playing a game against GK and the last thing we need is not getting EW or invuln against NFW.

If we don't autolose the game due to Warp Quake already, then save-ignoring gun and save-ignoring MC killing basic troops would do it.



Why dont you wait and see if theres special bonuses for Daemons facing Grey Knights like in the old Codex?

Infidel
20-02-2011, 16:10
serve you right for playing a crap army like daemons
why not play a real man's army like Blood Angels or Space Wolves
I'm not sure if this was intended as a sarcastic remark or just trolling, so for all intents and purposes I will ignore your flanderization.

For the second part of your comment, I fail to see the correlation between being a real man and playing an army consists entirely of giant space man. I have much more respect for those who stuck with their Dark Angel, Black Templar and old GK while newer codex marines are using much fancier toys.

With that said though, I like Blood Angels, in fact, I find that Blood Angels make a better Khorne army than a Chaos Daemon Khorne army.

If you actually pay attention to Warp Quake and how it could effect armies such as DoA Jump Pack BA and Drop Pod Wolves, both of which you seem so fond of, you'll soon realise our Whinehammer is completely justified.


Why dont you wait and see if theres special bonuses for Daemons facing Grey Knights like in the old Codex?
The old rule allow us to basically have Without Number on our basic guys, but as long as they still need to deploy via Deep Strike, Warp Quake will kill an infinite amount of Daemons. I don't mind the preferred enemy part, or even NFW ignoring daemonic invuln and EW, but Warp Quake is the game breaker.

EDIT: Let's just say, they get to walk onto the board from our board edge, our tough guys are SNP, which means they'll never get anywhere while everything else will be shredded by Storm Bolter before they can get anywhere or do anything.

Mannimarco
20-02-2011, 16:27
I was originally convinced this was a fake dex leak like the Nid and BA ones but now that we see any topics relating to it are being deleted I am becoming increasingly concerned that this may in fact be real.

Its taking fluff to a ridiculous new level where once a khorne berserker would salute you if you managed to kill 3 of them, then you needed to kill somthing of an avatar or daemon prince scale to be uber, now we are at the stage where 1 GK has to burn down Nurgles garden, trash the inevitable city, slaughter several of Slaanesh chosen handmaidens and kick the crap out of a daemon prince primarch (where once it took 100 GK to banish Angron and 13 bloodthirsters now 1 can waltz through Mortarions realm and kick his teeth in? The Nurgle fan in me is offended).

Eventually we will get to the stage where a character slaughtering entire planets then building a tower of corpses to reach the next planet will be the norm, after that we will see one character slaughter entire sectors eventually cumulating into one character beating up a Chaos god for his lunch money.

I saw its incredibly unlucky for the imperium that the GK didnt exist during the heresy, as they are shaping up right now it would only take half a dozen of them at most to slaughter every single traitor on Istvaan and stop the Heresy before it even really began.

Xandros
20-02-2011, 16:29
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

I don't think you understand the context. In the context it makes perfect sense.

Usopreme
20-02-2011, 16:47
I personally really like the book and have no issues with the naming conventions, they have to be called something right?

All the nerd rage really does entertain me though, I can't wait until the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes out with ridiculous fluff and all the same people are saying "oh yeah that makes sense he is a primarch".

I don't think this book will be overpowered either outside of some of the crazy things you can do with henchmen and I'm still not sold on that. Overall good job Mat Ward, now get to work on Necrons

The Highlander
20-02-2011, 16:48
They will die just like everything else when you start firing battle cannons at them and letting rip with the power klaws. Ill see what they are like after the book comes out, then Ill work out how to kill them.

Promethius
20-02-2011, 16:56
My sole interest in this book is the hope that the plastic stormtroopers (or at least carapace guard) are finally released. As it stands I think it's a shame they have put the inquisition on the back burner and focused once again on power armour, but then thats 40k for you.

doomspittle
20-02-2011, 17:02
The fluff would be great if i was 10.

BobtheInquisitor
20-02-2011, 17:05
I don't think you understand the context. In the context it makes perfect sense.


What is the context?

Lord Damocles
20-02-2011, 17:06
What is the context?
'Marines are teh winzorz!!!!!' of course.

:shifty:

Sarevok
20-02-2011, 17:16
All the nerd rage really does entertain me though, I can't wait until the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes out with ridiculous fluff and all the same people are saying "oh yeah that makes sense he is a primarch".


Non-marine codexes don't seem to get the same sort of OTT fluff. Or should that be non-Matt Ward codexes.

Of course even if Ward does write CSM, he'll make it so the reason Horus turned traitor was jealousy, because he could never be like his brother Rowboat Girlyman.

MajorWesJanson
20-02-2011, 17:21
I used to get grumpy over all the hyperbolic whining about Ward and Marines, but it is just so over the top that I realized it fits perfectly into the 40K-verse.

I'm looking forwards to the GK dex. A unit of GKs was the second kit I bought when starting the game, and having more than a pamphlet for them will be great. Really looking forward to seeing what the SC models look like.

Sekhmet
20-02-2011, 17:48
I've always wanted to make a full inquisitorial henchmen army. Like not just Inq + retinue + ISTs, but something like a full army made up of henchmen. I'm hoping the GK codex will allow that and do it well.

Luke666
20-02-2011, 17:55
started a new grey knights rumors thread guys if you would like to take any rumors there

Souleater
20-02-2011, 18:37
After the cool fluff in the DE codex this new stuff sounds terrible. The GK used to be cool by the virute of not falling to Chaos or simply going insane after battling Chaos time and time again.

DJ3
20-02-2011, 18:45
whereas this single GK grandmaster is wiping out daemon realms that are more well known than the ones the Orks wiped out but is doing so all on his lonesome and not even having the common curtsey to die.

Uh, yeah. This.

The "HE CARVED HIS NAME ON MORTARION'S HEART" bit wouldn't be so bad if it were, you know, actually the worst part of that single fluff entry.

But it's not. It's not even close.

It's the fact that Grand Master Greydreadfaceknightbloodwolf now lives in the Warp and just rampages around killing Daemons all day long. His sword was broken, so he killed a Bloodthirster, took his axe, "cleansed" it, and now it's his. He burnt down Nurgle's forest and destroyed the Inevitable City. Every single Daemon--except particularly nutso Khorne Daemons--are now afraid of him and will not engage him.

It literally says the Chaos Gods themselves cannot kill him. Inside the Warp.

The only way this entire thing isn't the dumbest piece of fluff ever written is if it's just one big joke and the next CSM Codex comes out and you can play Daemon Prince Draigo and there's a little box next to his entry that says:

The Grand Master Draigo entry in Codex: Grey Knights is no longer valid. He's now a Daemon Prince.

What sort of idiot would try to use a Bloodthirster's axe?

(p.s. OF COURSE THE CHAOS GODS COULD HAVE KILLED HIM)

VonManstein
20-02-2011, 18:53
How it looks currently I absolutely will love the new Grey Knights! Everything I wanted is in the codex and more:

Variants of normal Grey Knights and Terminators with a great deal of weapon options.
Different ways of mobility (teleporting, deepstrike, Mech, Jump Packs)
Lot's of Psychic powers; including lots of usefull ones.
Interesting Special characters.
Over the top fluff. (yep, I do like this as I don't take it seriously)
An awesome new unit...yep the Dreadknight.

The codex seems to able to support all kinds of builds. Both fluffy and competative, foot and Mech, horde and elite.

Mannimarco
20-02-2011, 18:54
However we do know that daemons are capable of feeling fear, they fear the tyranid hive mind, they feared the rubric of Ahriman, they fear their own gods as they are the only thing that can truly destroy them and they now fear the GK grandmaster.

There was a case of one GK IIRC who destroyed his own mind before he could turn, didnt they break and torture him before slapping a collar of Khorne on him? Of course I may be misremembering this but if not then it shows it can happen with enough exposure....like the kind of exposure one might get from living in the warp and running around with a purified bloodthirster weapon.

Ill just wait for him to get to Khornes throne where he will face Ang'grath or the Blighted Pit where he will encounter Scabbiethrax, that should be impressive.

Charax
20-02-2011, 18:58
Im torn between wanting to abandon the 40k universe over OTT dross like that and perversely looking forward to the next CSM codex where, no doubt, we'll have special characters who have waltzed to Terra and defecated on the Emperor's lap, having single-handedly killed all the Custodes and turned all the Battle Sisters.

Korraz
20-02-2011, 19:04
Uh, yeah. This.

The "HE CARVED HIS NAME ON MORTARION'S HEART" bit wouldn't be so bad if it were, you know, actually the worst part of that single fluff entry.

But it's not. It's not even close.

It's the fact that Grand Master Greydreadfaceknightbloodwolf now lives in the Warp and just rampages around killing Daemons all day long. His sword was broken, so he killed a Bloodthirster, took his axe, "cleansed" it, and now it's his. He burnt down Nurgle's forest and destroyed the Inevitable City. Every single Daemon--except particularly nutso Khorne Daemons--are now afraid of him and will not engage him.

It literally says the Chaos Gods themselves cannot kill him. Inside the Warp.

The only way this entire thing isn't the dumbest piece of fluff ever written is if it's just one big joke and the next CSM Codex comes out and you can play Daemon Prince Draigo and there's a little box next to his entry that says:

The Grand Master Draigo entry in Codex: Grey Knights is no longer valid. He's now a Daemon Prince.

What sort of idiot would try to use a Bloodthirster's axe?

(p.s. OF COURSE THE CHAOS GODS COULD HAVE KILLED HIM)

Don't forget that he whacked the Arch-Nemesis of another character. I find this damn funny, Ward literally shows the finger to Andy Chambers, Phil Kelly or Graham McNeill (whoever wrote Stern) and says "You see this, you pussy? THIS is how you special character!"

The part about killing unkillable demons is also nice.

Mannimarco
20-02-2011, 19:09
Don't forget that he whacked the Arch-Nemesis of another character. I find this damn funny, Ward literally shows the finger to Andy Chambers, Phil Kelly or Graham McNeill (whoever wrote Stern) and says "You see this, you pussy? THIS is how you special character!"

Its also how you wind up the fans: "You were p****d at the calgar/avatar beat down? You wanna nerd rage at that? wait til you get a load of this!"

Still if the game being sold to the kids these days and if kids want super powered uber mega powerful superheroes then thats whats going to get sold to them.

This is of course assuming its real and not just a wind up.

Bunnahabhain
20-02-2011, 19:22
I thought the BA book was bad, but this, it's found a whole school of sharks to jump....

It seems they've taken the almost all* the worst ideas from the 5th ed marine books, and turned them up a notch.

*The only one missing is the wargear with needless renaming, and nor/pointlessly minor rules tweaks, I think.

KingDeath
20-02-2011, 19:23
Meh, and i thought Lord Inquisitor Rex's defeat of Angrath was over the top, but at the very least he had several squads of Grey Knight Terminators with him.

Korraz
20-02-2011, 19:26
This is of course assuming its real and not just a wind up.
Call mit pessimistic, but it can only get worse. Just like the leaked BA dex.



*The only one missing is the wargear with needless renaming, and nor/pointlessly minor rules tweaks, I think.

I'm quite sure there was a Nemesis Doomfist and Nemesis pretty much everywhere.

jmach04
20-02-2011, 19:32
I'm looking forward to them myself, they've been the only army that I've actually played in my year of playing 40k, which isn't a long time I'll admit. I can't wait for the black boxes to hit the stores and see some of the models ahead of time.

SgtTaters
20-02-2011, 19:59
It's great, I love the inquisitor warbands, the amount of customizability in it is wonderful and all codex's should have such a unit for squeezing in flavor.

what I don't like is that you need Coteaz to unlock them though, it's just slightly irksome that EVERY inquisitorial army MUST have him.

This codex was made with real fanaticism for the subject and no restraint. Every unit that is awesome has awesome stats and awesome rules. ws7 champions, teleporting giant robots with daemonslaying swords and when a weapon says it sucks you into the warp, it just straight up kills you with no save!

IT'D JUST BE NICE IF A NON-IMPERIAL CODEX COULD GET THIS KIND OF LOVE TOO (can you even imagine if Ghazkull was s6 t6? or phoenix lords had an inv sv? They would with a Ward-dex!)

Xandros
20-02-2011, 20:32
What is the context?

I knew I should have given more details. Dang!

Inscribing his deceased predecessors name upon Mortarion's "rotten heart" appears to be symbolic, an act of sorcery. He clearly did not have access to the heart of the heart of Mortarion who had just slain the previous grandmaster days or weeks prior.

It's similar to how voodoo dolls supposedly work.

SteelSpectre
20-02-2011, 20:33
I'm beginning to think that they should divide the hobby in half. GW uses the already established codex line and rulebook and gears it more towards kids, and let FW make a new aspect of 40k that is more reasonable and not too OTT.

I mean seriously, the new codex, if this is what will be in the final codex, than I think Matt Ward surfs the internet to plagiarize bad Fan Fic cause he can't think about the consequences. And GW is just as bad, seeing as they let it go through without noticing how insane and fluff-shattering it is.

doomspittle
20-02-2011, 20:39
Steel Spectre thats what my group has been saying for years .Advanced 40k fluff for adults, Matt ward SUPER DUPER MARINES 40k for kids.

Ben
20-02-2011, 20:46
started a new grey knights rumors thread guys if you would like to take any rumors there

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Xandros
20-02-2011, 20:55
It's great, I love the inquisitor warbands, the amount of customizability in it is wonderful and all codex's should have such a unit for squeezing in flavor.

what I don't like is that you need Coteaz to unlock them though, it's just slightly irksome that EVERY inquisitorial army MUST have him.

This codex was made with real fanaticism for the subject and no restraint. Every unit that is awesome has awesome stats and awesome rules. ws7 champions, teleporting giant robots with daemonslaying swords and when a weapon says it sucks you into the warp, it just straight up kills you with no save!

IT'D JUST BE NICE IF A NON-IMPERIAL CODEX COULD GET THIS KIND OF LOVE TOO (can you even imagine if Ghazkull was s6 t6? or phoenix lords had an inv sv? They would with a Ward-dex!)

That is actually happening. With each new codex, new mechanics are introduced and the conventions of what is possible are stretched, diversifying the rules and creating more nuances within the game. You used Codices Eldar and Orks as examples, but within those same codices there are examples of this process, even within the units that you mention. Warbosses gained T5 to further set them apart from other orks. Many other prominent orks as well, reflecting how big and tough they are. Phoenix Lords have a number of unique characteristics that set them apart from other Eldar, namely S4, T4, 2+ save and Eternal Warrior (A rule that appeared here by its' new name for the first time).

At a point in 4th Edition there was a 'reset' of sorts, starting with Codex: Dark Angels. Since then, codices Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Orks (It occurs to me that the vast majority of codices in 4th edition weren't space marines, or even imperial) and forward there has been a steady increase in codex options, conventions being broken and new venues explored, a trend that will undoubtedly continue in future releases.

Ben
20-02-2011, 21:01
Well 6th ed is out next year, so I imagine the whole thing will get rebalanced then.

Until they start releasing codexes.

Bast
20-02-2011, 21:13
At a point in 4th Edition there was a 'reset' of sorts, starting with Codex: Dark Angels. Since then, codices Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Orks (It occurs to me that the vast majority of codices in 4th edition weren't space marines, or even imperial) and forward there has been a steady increase in codex options, conventions being broken and new venues explored, a trend that will undoubtedly continue in future releases.

The DA codex was released in 2007 and the eldar in 2006. The trend is evident throughout 4th edition and did not start with DA. Your general statement is true.

HK-47
20-02-2011, 21:28
I'm not trying to troll, but to be perfectly honest if the leaked codex is true then I'm going to hate the Grey Knights, and consider Matt Ward to be a very poor writer.

Ozybonza
20-02-2011, 21:31
I'm really not too concerned about the fluff, although I would have liked them to expand on exactly "how" Drago did all those things, especially about carving the name onto Mortarion's heart - I mean, if he can keep Morty still for that long, surely he could have just killed him?

As for the rules, I really like the huge variety of lists that are possible, particuarly in regards to Henchmen + Coteaz.

The one thing that concerns me is the ability to take unlimited henchmen squads however - I think that if they are taken as troops, they should take up force org. slots.

Otherwise, we could end up with a 2000 point list like this:

Coteaz

7 x Henchment units:
5 x Acolyte
5 x Plasma
Chimera

7 x Henchmen units:
5 x Acolyte
5 x Melta
Chimera

with 70 x Melta/Plasma driving round, shooting out of the five-fire-point chimeras

Or worse:

Coteaz

15 - 20 Las Plas/AC Razorbacks with 3 x barebones Acolytes in each.


While on the whole I think the new GK dex is pretty cool and doesn't seem OP, it will probably be open to this kind of abuse.

Whatever happens, it will be on the player base to not abuse it. Just because the codex allows broken and un-fun options doesn't mean it's broken, it's only broken when players spam those broken options. There should still be huge variety of competative yet not cheesy or OTT builds that people can use.

Wolf Lord Balrog
20-02-2011, 21:32
Granted, the fluff is another notch toward over-the-top-even-for-40k, but I've grown accustomed to 'normalizing' the fluff in my head these days anyway. The game mechanics and stats all seem fine to me though. The whining from the Daemons players is particularly sweet I must say. Suck it up buttercup.

Skyros
20-02-2011, 21:51
Very excited if half of the rumors turn out to be true, because you'll have a lot of list building flexibility.

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 22:09
The thing is; once you're in the Warp, physicality as a concept is basically a hilarious joke - if you can imagine it happening there without being overwhelmed by the imaginations of others it will happen. Like if absolutely everyone in the entire universe had a Lantern Ring or something.

So dude won a few million contests of pure will? Not totally out of line for the supreme grand master of an entire order of super-humans whose day-job is winning contests of pure will...
Would it help if he had some more obvious backup though, like I dunno, a supreme psychic overlord of humanity who regularly beams raw power into the Warp for use as a navigational beacon?
Really, best just think of him as a Daemon Prince of the Emperor (or maybe Malal) and be done with it.

Worsle
20-02-2011, 22:16
I'm really not too concerned about the fluff, although I would have liked them to expand on exactly "how" Drago did all those things, especially about carving the name onto Mortarion's heart - I mean, if he can keep Morty still for that long, surely he could have just killed him?

As for the rules, I really like the huge variety of lists that are possible, particuarly in regards to Henchmen + Coteaz.

The one thing that concerns me is the ability to take unlimited henchmen squads however - I think that if they are taken as troops, they should take up force org. slots.

Otherwise, we could end up with a 2000 point list like this:

Coteaz

7 x Henchment units:
5 x Acolyte
5 x Plasma
Chimera

7 x Henchmen units:
5 x Acolyte
5 x Melta
Chimera

with 70 x Melta/Plasma driving round, shooting out of the five-fire-point chimeras

Or worse:

Coteaz

15 - 20 Las Plas/AC Razorbacks with 3 x barebones Acolytes in each.


While on the whole I think the new GK dex is pretty cool and doesn't seem OP, it will probably be open to this kind of abuse.

Whatever happens, it will be on the player base to not abuse it. Just because the codex allows broken and un-fun options doesn't mean it's broken, it's only broken when players spam those broken options. There should still be huge variety of competative yet not cheesy or OTT builds that people can use.

You are assuming the carving of his name is not a symbolic thing. Nothing in the codex to say one way or an other. However people can have that and it must be literal and Ward is the worst thing ever eleventy1bbq (ect)

Also you are doing that army wrong. First if the henchmen don't count as troops you need 2 grey knight squads. Then you take 3 monkeys and stick them in a chimera, once you have done that you repeat the process. Though even that is not a complete army, needs stuff to round your army out but it is a very worrying base to start with. However I doubt the codex was finalised, as if it was real Coteaz was far to cheep in it. Would be silly not to take him if it stays as it is.

DJ3
20-02-2011, 22:17
The game mechanics and stats all seem fine to me though. The whining from the Daemons players is particularly sweet I must say. Suck it up buttercup.

Not nearly as fun as watching each and every person on Warseer who's been getting crushed by a local Daemon player broadcast that fact into space by making statements such as these.

You may as well wave around a big yellow flag that says "WAAAAH DAEMONS ARE DIFFERENT AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO ADAPT" on it.

Ben
20-02-2011, 22:29
Thing is demons won one game at my club and have been totally crushed in every game since. I've never lost to them with my vanilla marines, even when I played with a 5 man grey knight allies squad to let them recycle all their basic troops.

Only thing that ever gave me trouble was FNP on Nurgle demons, but honour blades sorted that out.

KrimsonKing45
20-02-2011, 22:51
I think the codex will be powerful. It's a ward codex so the rules will be good. I am a grey knight fanatic and I love all their old fluff, so when I got my hands on the .PDF I was excited to read all the blurbs. It's not that bad Until you get to the Grandmasters entry.
Then upon reading lord KADOR DRAIGO's blurb I hit a wall. Right then every thing That I knew about the Grey Knights came crashing down around me and it truly hit home that this was a WARD codex. I love Grey Knights but even this is insane. too Insane. I know this sounds dramatic and I really don't mean it to be, but please please please let that not be Kaldor's truff fluff entry. If The story would have ended at Him Fighting Mortarion and dying but banishing him, then ok, but that's just a throwaway peice at the beginning that basically let's you know your In for a mind shattering, fluff destroying story.

Borgnine
20-02-2011, 22:52
I'm very excited for the new book. I have two problems, though. The rumour that you have to pay for halberds seems really crummy, since the old boxes came primarily with halberds. Second, the models will probably looks so cool that I'll have to just buy a whole new set of models ;)

zam2
20-02-2011, 22:57
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

Sounds like a Matt Ward codex. And I was really hopeful for this release too...

Borgnine
20-02-2011, 23:00
Sounds like a Matt Ward codex. And I was really hopeful for this release too...

My guess is that that is taken completely out of context and/or completely exaggerated

Wolf Lord Balrog
20-02-2011, 23:04
Not nearly as fun as watching each and every person on Warseer who's been getting crushed by a local Daemon player broadcast that fact into space by making statements such as these.

You may as well wave around a big yellow flag that says "WAAAAH DAEMONS ARE DIFFERENT AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO ADAPT" on it.

Way to assume negative things about me. I've never played a Daemons army before, nobody around here has one. I was merely noting that the loudest nerdrage about C:GK seems to be coming from Daemons players.

orz192
20-02-2011, 23:14
There's this bit of fluff where an inquisitor, among other things, carves his name on to Mortarion the Daemon Prince's heart. I think their fluff is gonna be a bit stupid.

It's not an inquisitor that does that. It's Grandmaster Draigo.

Nocculum
20-02-2011, 23:37
You can't kill daemons, only banish them, so what better way to ensure they think twice about being daemon-esque than branding them weak and feeble in the eyes of their gods?

Azzy
20-02-2011, 23:39
I think the codex will be powerful. It's a ward codex so the rules will be good. I am a grey knight fanatic and I love all their old fluff, so when I got my hands on the .PDF I was excited to read all the blurbs. It's not that bad Until you get to the Grandmasters entry.
Then upon reading lord KADOR DRAIGO's blurb I hit a wall. Right then every thing That I knew about the Grey Knights came crashing down around me and it truly hit home that this was a WARD codex. I love Grey Knights but even this is insane. too Insane. I know this sounds dramatic and I really don't mean it to be, but please please please let that not be Kaldor's truff fluff entry. If The story would have ended at Him Fighting Mortarion and dying but banishing him, then ok, but that's just a throwaway peice at the beginning that basically let's you know your In for a mind shattering, fluff destroying story.

Umm, yeah? I read the entire entry and I'm just not seeing the problems that a lot of you are. A lot of the "problems" that has been mentioned in this thread exist only by taking flowery text literally and purposefully inflating things beyond recognition.

The whole "Mortarion heart-carving" thing isn't anywhere what it's been presented as here. Here goes: Mortarion chumped the previous GK Grand Master, so Draigo promptly goes about making sure that Mortaion pays for it (in what manner isn't stated). I can't see carving the previous GM's name in Mortarions heart as being any more literal than being a "thorn in his side". The only thing that one sentence said to me was that Draigo made sure that Mortarion remembered his act of killing the the previous GM not as a victory against the Imperium, but as the inception of a run of misfortune and defeat.

Also, he didn't proceed to use a Bloodthirster's weapon--when he purified it, he used its molten material to reforge his own sword. Similarly all the great victories and heroic exploits are pointed out to ultimately have no lasting effect--the Daemons he slew were never permanently destroyed, the Nurgle jungle he destroyed grew back, etc. It's never said that he "can't be killed", rather that he resisted all attempts to corrupt or slay him.

His fluff entry is presented in the same kind of florid prose that would be used to write about King Arthur, Heracles, St. George, etc. Taking turns of phrases literally and isolating and grossly exaggerating specifics is not doing any justice to the truth.

Mr_Rose
20-02-2011, 23:50
Bonus round; the chaos gods themselves haven't even tried yet; just a few (hundred? thousand?) of their literally endless trillions of minions. I personally reckon they think he's a good test of the worth of a given daemon. I mean everyone needs a good benchmark, right?

Illiterate Scribe
21-02-2011, 00:14
His fluff entry is presented in the same kind of florid prose that would be used to write about King Arthur, Heracles, St. George, etc. Taking turns of phrases literally and isolating and grossly exaggerating specifics is not doing any justice to the truth.

This! The whole thing's basically a paean to mythological and legendary heroes of the Grey Knights. Sure, there's gonna be a lot of 'but what about my army they're meant to be the best but such is life. There are certainly problems with the background, and I admit it is a bit over the top in place, but it's not that bad if looked at from the perspective of mythological figures.

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 00:28
Thank you Azzy, for being a voice of reason. :cool:

Most of the posters here seem to have been driven mad by Chaos already... :rolleyes:

My current wonder is whether or not GKs will get a new decal sheet made for their kits. Hopefully yes.

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 00:33
So because it's written in horrible purply prose then that excuses everything? No, crap is crap. Just because someone's decided it's 'supposed' to be crap doesn't excuse it.

And I don't think the text is written ANY differently to other character entries. 3rd person omniscient narrator, exploits, goals etc. No different to all other character entries. At what point does it say 'psalms of the grey knights' or 'written whilst on shrooms by brother Fred'? Nowhere.

Using the method of writing as proof for a lack of veracity is about the flimsiest, backbending excuse you can come up with. But what can I expect from people that try SO hard to make everything GW does work. I suppose otherwise you can't validate the time you've put into it. I certainly am finding it harder and harder to validate the 16 years I've put into a setting when that setting just gets stupider and stupider whilst all the while other fans try as hard as they can to prove it doesn't suck so they don't feel bad about it.

That trash is TRASH. Defending it just makes it look even more sad. 'But, but LEGENDS! It's ok!' :rolleyes:

I'm glad some people like ****** legends because at least there's a market for it. For those who like legends that don't suck the jumbo wang, other material is required.

Hellebore

Ben
21-02-2011, 00:41
It does say everyone except Khorne demons leaves him alone now. Khorne demons don't care who dies, as long as somebody does.

KrimsonKing45
21-02-2011, 01:09
Of course your right AZZY about the Mortarion thing being abstract. I love the fluff and can say I'm a bit of a fanboy when it comes to the grey knights. Willing to look the other way and all that. I did not flinch when It said Grandmasters have to honor their agreements and traffick wit filthy xenos scum sometimes in their entry. I Even vibed with castellan crowe holding the most dangerous deamon weapon. But come on... your really stretching it when you say this is okay writing. I don't care who you are barring gods and deamons themselves nobody survives and actually thrives in the warp.:cries: and choking out Khorne's chosen bloodthirster with your bare hands(does not say that, Im only assuming this because his weapon was shattered):wtf:

Zechariah
21-02-2011, 01:09
From what I have seen and heard I have gone through the five stages myself denial, Anger, sadness, pleading and acceptance. In the beginning when the info was young I wasn’t at all believing that we would loose our NFW +2 str, a wile later I was angry that they lost a few abilities that I liked, next I thought that I would just not play, then I pleaded that the Mongers got it completely wrong, And finally I am in the state of mind that everything I’m hearing makes me giddy, even if you don’t like the fluff you have to take one thing into consideration the fluff is owned by GW yes its annoying when fluff changes but GW has the rite to do as they wish just as you have the right to fabricate your own story. So I wouldn’t take any of this fluff to heart if you don’t like it then use a counts as rule and write your own story, It’s what I’m doing and what I did in the previous addition (didn’t use the SC but that’s besides the point).

Private_SeeD
21-02-2011, 01:27
I agree with what someone earlier posted some of the stuff i've read does make the GK seem to OTT, even for my liking. I knw they're harder than your average SM but some of the fluff is too much, and it will kind of leave a bitter taste in your mouth when your super duper GK ends up dying as easily as any normal SM

edit

Someone just told me that the GK have Jesus on there side... I have no idea what they're on about tbh, any of you knw what he's talking about... Or can i put it down he's had way too much Red Bull?

zam2
21-02-2011, 01:32
My guess is that that is taken completely out of context and/or completely exaggerated

I dunno man, Ward is a pretty crappy fluff writer, he's fine enough if he's just working on rules but you ask him to write some fluff and he goes a little fanboy overboard on some things. Honestly it's like something you'll find on fanfiction.net.

Azzy
21-02-2011, 01:41
So because it's written in horrible purply prose then that excuses everything? No, crap is crap. Just because someone's decided it's 'supposed' to be crap doesn't excuse it.

Ah, thank you for providing a perfect example of disingenuous exaggeration. Nice. So I guess purposefully florid writing = crap? Uh-huh.


And I don't think the text is written ANY differently to other character entries. 3rd person omniscient narrator, exploits, goals etc. No different to all other character entries. At what point does it say 'psalms of the grey knights' or 'written whilst on shrooms by brother Fred'? Nowhere.

By and large, I don't think it's written any differently either--most fluff entries tend to be similarly florid (typically in different ways as appropriate to the army). However, I believe that you are wrongheaded in assuming that 40K's fluff is meant to be written in omniscient narrator style given what Jervis and Blanche have said in the past in regards to mutually contradicting canon fluff and the differing depictions of the same object/person. Judging my much of the setting's fluff entries it seems that it is written much like medieval narratives and histories--with accounts varying by author, inaccuracies due to author or political bias, misunderstanding, second (or even third) hand accounts and deliberate lies. This view makes sense given the setting that GW has established.


Using the method of writing as proof for a lack of veracity is about the flimsiest, backbending excuse you can come up with. But what can I expect from people that try SO hard to make everything GW does work. I suppose otherwise you can't validate the time you've put into it. I certainly am finding it harder and harder to validate the 16 years I've put into a setting when that setting just gets stupider and stupider whilst all the while other fans try as hard as they can to prove it doesn't suck so they don't feel bad about it.

Oookay... The isn't even about "lack of veracity" based on writing style it's about not taking idioms and such as literal facts. Doing so would be moronic in reading a completely factual biography, so why do so in text that is purposefully evoking a mythic quality?

BTW, the only thing I need to do to validate the time, effort and money I've put into the game is to ask myself: "Have am I having fun?" So long as the answer is "yes" (as it currently is) them I feel validated.

If you really feel so strongly against everything that's been put out lately, and you're no longer enjoying it perhaps you should do yourself (and your blood pressure) a favor and take a break or quit this hobby.


That trash is TRASH. Defending it just makes it look even more sad. 'But, but LEGENDS! It's ok!' :rolleyes:

No, what looks sad is isolating snippets away from context and then purposefully distorting them so that it barely resembles anything that was actually written.


I'm glad some people like ****** legends because at least there's a market for it. For those who like legends that don't suck the jumbo wang, other material is required.

Just because you made your mind up beforehand that it sucked "jumbo wang" doesn't mean it actually does. If you don't like, that's fine. But that's far removed from the quality of writing be bad (there are some technical aspects like repeating turn of phases that need improvement, but is otherwise not bad) or the matter of the writing being any more over the top or florid than the rest of the setting. There's certainly nothing in Daigo's entry that justifies this current spate of Wardrage.


Of course your right AZZY about the Mortarion thing being abstract. I love the fluff and can say I'm a bit of a fanboy when it comes to the grey knights. Willing to look the other way and all that. I did not flinch when It said Grandmasters have to honor their agreements and traffick wit filthy xenos scum sometimes in their entry. I Even vibed with castellan crowe holding the most dangerous deamon weapon. But come on... your really stretching it when you say this is okay writing. I don't care who you are barring gods and deamons themselves nobody survives and actually thrives in the warp.:cries: and choking out Khorne's chosen bloodthirster with your bare hands(does not say that, Im only assuming this because his weapon was shattered):wtf:

I wouldn't say thriving, but that's just the way I see it. Daigo strikes me as similar to Tolkien's Turin Turambar (and similar characters from legend and myth)--a cursed hero (GK trapped in the Warp, occasionally getting a glimpse of hope and home,but never being able to truly escape from the Warp) surviving against overwhelming odds (he's still alive and uncorrupted), but whose great achievements always turn to ash before him. As for the Bloodthirster... who knows? When it comes to speculating, though, we can go with the silly (choking out the big bad) or try for something that's not silly like him having found or made another weapon (others have been lost in the warp and their artifacts may remain) before reforging the Titansword.

I definitely wouldn't say that Ward is a literally genius (or a literary horror, for that matter), I just don't think that Daigo's fluff is nearly as bad as all that.

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 01:53
There's certainly nothing in Daigo's entry that justifies this current spate of Wardrage.

Sure there is. There is plenty that can be taken out of context and twisted, just like Calgar or the Sanguinor, simply because it has become popular, almost a rite of passage, to trash anything Ward produces. :rolleyes:

If Ward did this one, does that mean Cruddace is doing Necrons?

I'm really hoping it is Ward and not Kelly who does the Eldar when their cycle is up. If that happened, some people on Warseer would implode. :shifty:

Zechariah
21-02-2011, 02:39
Someone just told me that the GK have Jesus on there side... I have no idea what they're on about tbh, any of you knw what he's talking about... Or can i put it down he's had way too much Red Bull?

who ever told you that should separate Warhammer from Christanity, Iesus would defenatly not be on the side of any Warhammer army i myself have been cornerd into stoping my heaten actions lol for the Impirium

DJ3
21-02-2011, 02:48
Way to assume negative things about me. I've never played a Daemons army before, nobody around here has one. I was merely noting that the loudest nerdrage about C:GK seems to be coming from Daemons players.

Uhhh....I think your version of the situation is far more of a "negative thing about you" than my version.

My version: You lost to an army, and you're thrilled that they're about to literally release a book dedicated to killing that army.

Your version: You troll around Warseer being thrilled by other peoples' (legitimate) concern that a new Codex is going to make theirs borderline unplayable, even though you have no personal opinion about said Codex.

"hurr hurr! the game you enjoy to play might be ruined for you in two months! I don't know you but this is the internet and this brings me joyyy!"

Wolf Lord Balrog
21-02-2011, 02:50
"hurr hurr! the game you enjoy to play might be ruined for you in two months! I don't know you but this is the internet and this brings me joyyy!"[/I]

Umm ... ok sure, whatever. You win. :rolleyes:

SgtTaters
21-02-2011, 02:51
Someone just told me that the GK have Jesus on there side... I have no idea what they're on about tbh, any of you knw what he's talking about... Or can i put it down he's had way too much Red Bull?

When the grey knights were checking a Black Ship, amidst all the cowering and squalor was a young boy. He stood perfectly calm, the grey knights witnessed a halo radiating from the child. He said he was waiting for them.

When he became a grey knight he was the picture of valor, accomplishing many great feats. But then the unthinkable occured. While scouring the daemon infested halls of a long dead craftworld, in combat he was pierced at his side by the daemon's spear and died. When his sarcophagus was brought back to Titan, before it was interred a clamor came from within, the young grey knight had miraculously come back to life.


Since then he has died and resurrected many times. Some believe him to be an agent of destiny and speak of a prophecy, of an immortal warrior who will only finally die defending the golden throne, surrounded by the fallen.


Iesus would defenatly not be on the side of any Warhammer army
I know which side jesus would pick, E'S DA BOSS, DA BOY, AND DA 'OLY WAAAAGH ALL IN ONE that's why.

vladsimpaler
21-02-2011, 02:52
Umm ... ok sure, whatever. You win. :rolleyes:

Isn't it your bedtime about now?

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 02:55
When the grey knights were checking a Black Ship, amidst all the cowering and squalor was a young boy. He stood perfectly calm, the grey knights witnessed a halo radiating from the child. He said he was waiting for them.

When he became a grey knight he was the picture of valor, accomplishing many great feats. But then the unthinkable occured. While scouring the daemon infested halls of a long dead craftworld, in combat he was pierced at his side by the daemon's spear and died. When his sarcophagus was brought back to Titan, before it was interred a clamor came from within, the young grey knight had miraculously come back to life.


Since then he has died and resurrected many times. Some believe him to be an agent of destiny and speak of a prophecy, of an immortal warrior who will only finally die defending the golden throne, surrounded by the fallen.

It also talks about how he sees how the Imperium has decayed over time, and that all his actions mean nothing in the end, as Chaos is inevitable, but he keeps fighting.

Theocracity
21-02-2011, 03:09
I wouldn't say thriving, but that's just the way I see it. Daigo strikes me as similar to Tolkien's Turin Turambar (and similar characters from legend and myth)--a cursed hero (GK trapped in the Warp, occasionally getting a glimpse of hope and home,but never being able to truly escape from the Warp) surviving against overwhelming odds (he's still alive and uncorrupted), but whose great achievements always turn to ash before him.

This is a great example of the ways in which fluff is not set in stone by the Codex writer. All it takes is a little investment and imagination, and you can take a few poorly written paragraphs and weave it into something much bigger than it ever was originally.

That's why I like 40k fluff - heck, that's why I like Fantasy and Sci Fi to begin with.

It's not worth getting worked up over something as small as codex fluff, because it's all intended as a quick framework for you to create your own adventures in. If Ward or whoever does a bad job, just frame it differently when you play and it'll all be good.

Wolf Lord Balrog
21-02-2011, 03:12
It's not worth getting worked up over something as small as codex fluff, because it's all intended as a quick framework for you to create your own adventures in. If Ward or whoever does a bad job, just frame it differently when you play and it'll all be good.

This ^^



10 characters

Souleater
21-02-2011, 07:33
I was merely noting that the loudest nerdrage about C:GK seems to be coming from Daemons players.

I belive a large part of the complaining is about the GK's rules. Warp Quake, for example could completely mess up a Daemon army because of the way they deploy - something the Daemon player has no control over.

marv335
21-02-2011, 07:59
Isn't the whole point of GK army that it should be really good against Daemons?
You know, their whole reason for existing.

Azzy
21-02-2011, 08:10
It's not worth getting worked up over something as small as codex fluff, because it's all intended as a quick framework for you to create your own adventures in. If Ward or whoever does a bad job, just frame it differently when you play and it'll all be good.

Agreed.


Isn't the whole point of GK army that it should be really good against Daemons?
You know, their whole reason for existing.

As a counterpoint to that, shouldn't all codices be balanced against each other so that Army A of X point should have an equal chance against Army B of X points?

That said, I'm not convinced that GK are going to spank Daemons out of the gate (there's a lot of missing info and that which we have may not be finalized). We'll need to see once the real codex comes out and several actual games are played.

The Vehement
21-02-2011, 08:13
Isn't the whole point of GK army that it should be really good against Daemons?
You know, their whole reason for existing.

Would you have fun bringing your beautiful models to a game, only to not be able to deploy as a daemons player because some jerk maxed out strike squads and denied pretty much the entire board to deepstriking?

Not fun at all, it's like the white scars player that played his entire army in reserve only to be defeated by deployment issues from infiltrating kroot.

I wouldn't want to parade my models around knowing I wouldn't be able to play with them, that's just sad really.

Godzooky
21-02-2011, 08:31
10 characters

*Pedant mode engaged*

If you count the space that's 13 characters...

*Pedant mode disengaged*

*Grey Knight anticipation mode engaged*

Anyway, I'm very excited for Grey Knights. :shifty:

marv335
21-02-2011, 08:43
Would you have fun bringing your beautiful models to a game, only to not be able to deploy as a daemons player because some jerk maxed out strike squads and denied pretty much the entire board to deepstriking?

Not fun at all, it's like the white scars player that played his entire army in reserve only to be defeated by deployment issues from infiltrating kroot.

I wouldn't want to parade my models around knowing I wouldn't be able to play with them, that's just sad really.

Not a good strategy for the GK player.
You'd lose out on your terminators for a start.
Max out on GKSS and without upgrades you're looking at a minimum of around 600pts for 30 models
Start adding in toys, and it gets expensive very fast, and it's a power so it needs to be cast. If the daemons get first turn, some screamers could easily wipe out every troop choice in the GK army in turn one.
(yes I have the codex, No you can't have it, don't bother asking, I'm not telling.)

SamaNagol
21-02-2011, 08:47
I find it ironic that whilst their fluff makes them supermen, their stats are now decidedly run of the mill

Azulthar
21-02-2011, 08:55
It also talks about how he sees how the Imperium has decayed over time, and that all his actions mean nothing in the end, as Chaos is inevitable, but he keeps fighting.
"Jesus" succumbing to Nurgle? Nice... :D

I browsed the leaked codex, but I'll wait for the final one before I pass judgment on the rules. It's the fluff I'm worried about. I highly doubt that's getting another pass, and...it's not good. I feel for my buddy, who just started collecting his Daemonhunters. I hope it's more to his liking, but seeing as so many other people don't like the fluff either...

Even worse, my beloved Necron codex is apparently next and done by the same writer. Bright side: I'll be 'competitive' and will get a big new plastic super-monster/vehicle.

The Vehement
21-02-2011, 08:58
Not a good strategy for the GK player.
You'd lose out on your terminators for a start.
Max out on GKSS and without upgrades you're looking at a minimum of around 600pts for 30 models
Start adding in toys, and it gets expensive very fast, and it's a power so it needs to be cast. If the daemons get first turn, some screamers could easily wipe out every troop choice in the GK army in turn one.
(yes I have the codex, No you can't have it, don't bother asking, I'm not telling.)

You seem to think yourself the only one who does? I understand what you imply, but even 2 squads of GKSS can seriously mess up daemons.

Yes you can take termis, yes they are awesome but they are also double the price of a strike squad and they have only hammerhand. I would rather play strike squads and have paladins than troop terminators. Especially with such a disruptive power.

That's just me, yeah daemons can get first turn that is always the crux. However this power works on so many levels it is contesting evenly with troop termies.

marv335
21-02-2011, 09:08
Also the loss of Shrouding makes them vulnerable to long range shooting.

Satan
21-02-2011, 09:11
Not a good strategy for the GK player.
You'd lose out on your terminators for a start.
Max out on GKSS and without upgrades you're looking at a minimum of around 600pts for 30 models
Start adding in toys, and it gets expensive very fast, and it's a power so it needs to be cast. If the daemons get first turn, some screamers could easily wipe out every troop choice in the GK army in turn one.
(yes I have the codex, No you can't have it, don't bother asking, I'm not telling.)

Marv... how would screamers accomplish that?

Not whining about the GK rules (but the background is horrid), just wondering.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 09:58
I prefer not to.

They crossed the Rubicon, gone to the point of no return.

Infidel
21-02-2011, 10:33
Not a good strategy for the GK player.
You'd lose out on your terminators for a start.
Max out on GKSS and without upgrades you're looking at a minimum of around 600pts for 30 models
Start adding in toys, and it gets expensive very fast, and it's a power so it needs to be cast. If the daemons get first turn, some screamers could easily wipe out every troop choice in the GK army in turn one.
(yes I have the codex, No you can't have it, don't bother asking, I'm not telling.)
First, screamers? Those terrible things that can't do anything other than skulk around outside of LoS waiting to last-turn contest or hope to catch an immobilised vehicle? I can not see how it's at all possible for Daemon to do anything remotely resembling "easily wipe out every troop choice in the GK army in turn one.".

Two, I believe that GKSS has a legitimate place to exist in every GK army, specifically for Warp Quake and the ability to teleport and score/contest. Against assaulty army whose only real mean of ranged AT is some form of DS gimmick, you can simply castle up and shoot them to bits all the while being competent enough to out-assault nearly any standard troops.

Thirdly, I think other aspects of the army, with the possible exception of Cortez and the ridiculously cheap inquisitorial henchmen, is quite balanced. Of course, that also depends on what a Psycannon and NFW does, as it could seriously hurt Dark Eldar and Tyranid more than it hurts Daemons. If they do it right, there might not be a need to include rules like Daemonic Infestation since Daemon is geared specifically to butcher elite infantries, which is exactly what GK is.

In sum, I like the new DK and the direction they took it with the exception of stupid names on their wargear (Dreadknight, Doomfist, Nemesis everything army wide). The excessively florid fluff is along the same line of Mephiston and Sanguinor, that is to say, spasm inducing on the first read and forgotten soon after.

VonManstein
21-02-2011, 10:47
I'm pretty sure he means Flamers ;)

Infidel
21-02-2011, 11:15
I'm pretty sure he means Flamers ;)That makes much more sense. As a matter of fact, marv335 has made an excellent point for the inclusion of GKSS. A squad of 3 Flamers will torch a GKT squad like it's nobody's business, but landing within 12" of GKSS makes them mishap.

Off-topic: Poseidal, love the display pic. Mukuro is one of my favourite fictional characters of all time

Mr_Rose
21-02-2011, 11:37
Assuming they've passed their Ld test and/or you aren't arriving before their first movement phase. When does daemonic deployment happen exactly?

Azulthar
21-02-2011, 12:50
Assuming they've passed their Ld test and/or you aren't arriving before their first movement phase. When does daemonic deployment happen exactly?
One half on the Daemon's first turn, the other half throughout the rest of the game. So yeah, if Daemons get the first turn it's less scary, though even then the GKs can prevent the rest of the army from DSing close.

Infidel
21-02-2011, 13:09
Assuming they've passed their Ld test and/or you aren't arriving before their first movement phase. When does daemonic deployment happen exactly?
Daemonic incursion happens at the beginning of the Daemon player's turn, after deployment and Seize the Initiative!

The daemon player have to divide their army into 2 halves based on the number of units in the army, rounding up or down as the player sees fit, you choose which half is your 'preferred half' and which one you'd place in reserve. The player then proceed to roll a single D6, on a roll of 3+, your chosen half arrives and is deployed via Deepstrike and failing that, your 'unwanted' half arrives.

With the way Grey Knight work, it'd mean that we MUST split our army in the most imbalanced manner possible so we can put as much of our scary stuff on the board as possible, since the board will be quickly shut-down by Warp Quake after that initial deployment. If we fail to get the first turn, or seize the initiative, that means we basically auto-lose the game. Should we win the first turn but fail to get our preferred half, then we'll also basically auto-lose, since all of our combat-capable units have been denied entry.

It's quite a bit worse than the old Sanctuary inquisitor power...at least then we could still put our army on the board.

Mannimarco
21-02-2011, 13:27
yeah this warp quake sounds frightening for anybody who wants to (or has to) deepstrike onto the board, perhaps its even to powerful....it might even warrant enough hatred and disgust as a certain ability from Chaos 3.5 that despite the years passing we all still love to hate. If this codex is real (and I sincerely hope it isnt) then will we so vehemently despise it as much as we did Chaos 3.5? It does look like its shaping up to be more cheesy than it.

Hellgore
21-02-2011, 13:32
Umm, yeah? I read the entire entry and I'm just not seeing the problems that a lot of you are. A lot of the "problems" that has been mentioned in this thread exist only by taking flowery text literally and purposefully inflating things beyond recognition.

The whole "Mortarion heart-carving" thing isn't anywhere what it's been presented as here. Here goes: Mortarion chumped the previous GK Grand Master, so Draigo promptly goes about making sure that Mortaion pays for it (in what manner isn't stated). I can't see carving the previous GM's name in Mortarions heart as being any more literal than being a "thorn in his side". The only thing that one sentence said to me was that Draigo made sure that Mortarion remembered his act of killing the the previous GM not as a victory against the Imperium, but as the inception of a run of misfortune and defeat.

Also, he didn't proceed to use a Bloodthirster's weapon--when he purified it, he used its molten material to reforge his own sword. Similarly all the great victories and heroic exploits are pointed out to ultimately have no lasting effect--the Daemons he slew were never permanently destroyed, the Nurgle jungle he destroyed grew back, etc. It's never said that he "can't be killed", rather that he resisted all attempts to corrupt or slay him.

His fluff entry is presented in the same kind of florid prose that would be used to write about King Arthur, Heracles, St. George, etc. Taking turns of phrases literally and isolating and grossly exaggerating specifics is not doing any justice to the truth.


+1 to this!
Why do so many get all frothing about a saga-like legend that even emphasises the meaninglessness of Draigos victories?

Culgore
21-02-2011, 13:33
Daigo strikes me as similar to Tolkien's Turin Turambar (and similar characters from legend and myth)--a cursed hero (GK trapped in the Warp, occasionally getting a glimpse of hope and home,but never being able to truly escape from the Warp) surviving against overwhelming odds (he's still alive and uncorrupted), but whose great achievements always turn to ash before him.

Awesome comparison(Turin is one of my favorite literary characters of all time) Now that you mention it Draigo seems almost exactly like him.


Upon this ruin and woe Turin came, and none could withstand him; or would not, though he struck down all before him, and passed over the bridge, and hewed his way toward the captives.

the end of that sections sees Glaurung(Father of all Dragons(daemons?!?)) paralyze Turin and the orcs take the all the captives away, Turin survives to be tormented by this event. Not to spoil the rest of the story of Turin Turambar but there is an eventful showdown between Turin and Glaurung.

I think the fluff is actually pretty alright. The codex looks pretty versatile(though I think a certain bound daemon entry looks immensely weak but it doesn't seem to limit your army anymore)

doomspittle
21-02-2011, 13:47
Just makes the emperor seem a little crap. After all he was reluctant to enter Horus battle barge ,through fear of corruption,never mind enter the warp and beat up daemons.

Xandros
21-02-2011, 13:51
The Emperor was corrupt after all. Ambitious, dogmatic and murderous.

Culgore
21-02-2011, 14:12
I don't remember the Emperor being "reluctant" to enter the Warmaster's battlebarge. He couldn't until Horus dropped the shields, he teleported aboard as soon as that occurred.

Mr_Rose
21-02-2011, 14:16
The Emperor was reluctant to kill Horus, his first and favoured son, because he hoped to redeem him instead. In the end (allegedly because Horus callously obliterated a loyalist when he didn't have to) the Emperor figured out that Horus was beyond redemption and instead settled for dismantling his soul from the inside out so he could never be resurrected.

TheMav80
21-02-2011, 16:02
Comparing Tolkien's writing to Matt Wards is the pinnacle of insanity.

Iverald
21-02-2011, 16:09
Comparing Tolkien's writing to Matt Wards is the pinnacle of insanity.

Seconded. However, being a self-consciuos hypocrite:
Turin dies. Before that kills his best firend and marries his own sister.

The proportion of personal (and collateral) tragedy involved between Draigo and Turin: grain of sand to Mount Blanc.

Lord Inquisitor
21-02-2011, 16:23
As far as the rules goes I'm largely unplussed by the rumours.

Rhinos and razorbacks? Not having these sort of set the GKs apart.

Librarians? Uh, I guess. Putting Librarians in a chapter of psychic marines seems overkill, but I suppose it makes sense.

Organisation and explansion of GK units is cool. Apart from the Dreadknight. :eyebrows:

Removal of WS5? Somewhat detracts from the "elite of the elite of the elite" feel but meh, can live with it.

Inquisitors... are hugely disappointing. :cries: Really the Inquisitors were always my favourite parts of the "Hunters" books (surprised?) and they kind of sucked except as fire support. Not that it stopped me from using them as assault units, while expensive at least you could palm wounds off on the acolytes and do a bit of damage. I was really hoping the new rules would make them a force to be feared while still keeping their stats within human ranges. Their henchmen needed a boost to be the kind of double-hard nutter an Inquisitor would keep around him or her.

Now what has happened to them? Inquisitors are only WS4/BS4 (really, commissars are better trained than Inquisitors?) no immunity from instant death or way to avoid being smacked in combat. Some neat gear does make up a little.

Henchmen. I expected henchmen to be lumped into one unit ... but they're just all so awful I can't imagine ever taking a unit except perhaps as a fire support unit. Return of the Jokaero is amusing, but the options for henchmen are so insanely overcosted or underpowered. Hardly a band of the hardest boiled individuals in the galaxy. And what happened to Daemonhosts?!
Cherubael could take on TITANS!

I'd like to run a Inquisitorial Task Force with Chamber Militant support but that looks largely impossible from what I've seen. If you're a pure-GK player then the book looks alright, but the Inquisitorial aspects are a huge disappointment.

Mr_Rose
21-02-2011, 16:27
RE: Taking on Titans; that ability has been moved to the bodyguard dudes who can stab anything to death, as long as they're about to die too. Maybe you could convert one to be a bit more daemonhost-y? :P

dancingcricket
21-02-2011, 16:40
What new grey knights. Codex isn't out yet. There aren't any new GK until I can get the codex in my hand. Then I'll form an opinion. Until then, it's useless speculation.

Skyros
21-02-2011, 16:41
I think if we are comparing to characters from Tolkien, we might look at Feanor, or Hurin, Turin's father.

Both were portrayed as being totally incorruptible, and having no fear of Morgoth, even when everyone else with any sense was scared of him.

However, this did not make them the ultimate badasses of Middle Earth. Feanor died pointlessly accomplishing nothing, and Hurin was defeated in battle, taken captive by Morgoth and forced to watch as his family was cursed and destroyed.

Ok, so you can't be corrupted and aren't scared of anything. Maybe you should be?

Let's not confuse 'incorruptible' and 'fearless' with 'perfect' and 'invincible'.

Culgore
21-02-2011, 18:10
I won't say codex writing is on the par with the Silmarillion(my favorite book evar btw). I just think that Draigo's alleged fluff isn't as terrible as people are making it out to be. He is apparently one of the strongest warriors in the Imperium, cursed and drawn into the warp forever. Now his awesomeness is offset by his inability to leave the warp save for in rare instances(though with special character rules the way they are, he will probably be escaping the warp with increased frequency starting in April).

Turin was essentially the perfect warrior in the Silmarillion. He was captured once only through an act of betrayal. He was bested by Glaurung when the dragon convinced him to remove the Dragon-Helm, but save for his pride he might have defeated the dragon on the spot. He too was cursed, and despite being the perfect warrior his efforts were mostly meaningless.

So I think the parallel is that both are essentially perfect warriors who truly cannot accomplish anything. In fact Turambar's efforts were often detrimental to the fight against Morgoth. Draigo's might be the same (this is where we get into trouble when we analyze fiction, placing meaning where it was never intended). Draigo may in fact be strengthening Chaos, if Chaos evolves(and I'm pretty sure that one of the big four is a lord of that process) it will learn and become stronger than before Draigo entered the fray.

pretty pumped that this thread has a small discussion on the cross-over of two of my favorite things...booyah :eek:

Damien 1427
21-02-2011, 18:25
I think if I ever become a super-villain, I shall call myself Nemesis Doomfist.

Azulthar
21-02-2011, 18:34
This isn't high fantasy! It's a sad thing that you would point to Tolkien to reference 40k fluff...if I wanted incorruptible heroes I'd be playing in a different setting.

Then again, the setting has been moving more towards high fantasy with every codex, so unfortunately it's not unexpected... :cries:

Korraz
21-02-2011, 18:40
Only Marine dexes, only Marines. The xenos need to stay their little bitches.

:D

Inquisitor_Tolheim
21-02-2011, 18:42
So I think the parallel is that both are essentially perfect warriors who truly cannot accomplish anything. In fact Turambar's efforts were often detrimental to the fight against Morgoth. Draigo's might be the same (this is where we get into trouble when we analyze fiction, placing meaning where it was never intended). Draigo may in fact be strengthening Chaos, if Chaos evolves(and I'm pretty sure that one of the big four is a lord of that process) it will learn and become stronger than before Draigo entered the fray.

pretty pumped that this thread has a small discussion on the cross-over of two of my favorite things...booyah :eek:

I think it's the bolded part that people have problems with. Draigo is a Grand Master of the Grey Knights, which makes him an amazing warrior for sure, but walking through the warp like that uncorrputed implies a god-like virtue that eluded the Primarchs and was even a questionable realm of ability for the Emperor.

Let's take away the daemon slaying and destruction of well known chaotic landmarks for a moment, and just look at Draigo the warp traveler. Spending that much time completely uncorrupted while immersing himself in the warp puts him on a superman pedestal so far above humanity that he is effectively untouchable. There's being an incredible warrior paragon of an ancient brotherhood of daemonhunters, and then there's existing constantly immersed in the most corrupting influence in the galaxy, that has toppled demigods reliably, without so much as getting your hands dirty (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Most of the fluff is surprisingly decent, but I think Draigo really does take it too far. He is shown to be so incorruptible, and so powerful, that he basically becomes a "Daemon Prince of the Emperor". Some folks might care for that stuff, but it's not to my tastes.

FabricatorGeneralMike
21-02-2011, 18:44
i think it's the bolded part that people have problems with. Draigo is a grand master of the grey knights, which makes him an amazing warrior for sure, but walking through the warp like that uncorrputed implies a god-like virtue that eluded the primarchs and was even a questionable realm of ability for the emperor.

Let's take away the daemon slaying and destruction of well known chaotic landmarks for a moment, and just look at draigo the warp traveler. Spending that much time completely uncorrupted while immersing himself in the warp puts him on a superman pedestal so far above humanity that he is effectively untouchable. There's being an incredible warrior paragon of an ancient brotherhood of daemonhunters, and then there's existing constantly immersed in the most corrupting influence in the galaxy, that has toppled demigods reliably, without so much as getting your hands dirty (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Most of the fluff is surprisingly decent, but i think draigo really does take it too far. He is shown to be so incorruptible, and so powerful, that he basically becomes a "daemon prince of the emperor". Some folks might care for that stuff, but it's not the my tastes.


+1.........

DJ3
21-02-2011, 19:05
I think it's the bolded part that people have problems with. Draigo is a Grand Master of the Grey Knights, which makes him an amazing warrior for sure, but walking through the warp like that uncorrputed implies a god-like virtue that eluded the Primarchs and was even a questionable realm of ability for the Emperor.

Let's take away the daemon slaying and destruction of well known chaotic landmarks for a moment, and just look at Draigo the warp traveler. Spending that much time completely uncorrupted while immersing himself in the warp puts him on a superman pedestal so far above humanity that he is effectively untouchable. There's being an incredible warrior paragon of an ancient brotherhood of daemonhunters, and then there's existing constantly immersed in the most corrupting influence in the galaxy, that has toppled demigods reliably, without so much as getting your hands dirty (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Most of the fluff is surprisingly decent, but I think Draigo really does take it too far. He is shown to be so incorruptible, and so powerful, that he basically becomes a "Daemon Prince of the Emperor". Some folks might care for that stuff, but it's not to my tastes.

Pretty much all this.

The worst part is that it's like ten degrees left of what could have been a cool story. An incredibly powerful GK gets sucked into the Warp?

Just resisting corruption would have been a big deal, especially as that's kinda the "cool factor" the GKs have always had--that they are incorruptible to forces that drive normal people crazy instantaneously. If Draigo was in the Warp fighting some kind of guerilla war, hiding out, avoiding more powerful Warp entities, and just doing his best to stay alive and try to find his way home, that would have been impressive as hell and still made for an interesting story.

But just walking around doing whatever the hell he wants because he's an unstoppable badass? What's the point? It's like half that Codex is intent on the GKs making themselves redundant.

Chaos is supposed to, y'know, pose a threat. They now have Uncle Superman walking around the Warp untouched and giant Mecha-bots that are specially designed to allow a single Space Marine to do battle with (and defeat) Greater Daemons.

They may as well just ship the Ultramarines a dozen Dreadknights and disband the whole chapter if it's that easy to ward off the forces of Chaos these days.

Skyros
21-02-2011, 19:20
I think it's the bolded part that people have problems with. Draigo is a Grand Master of the Grey Knights, which makes him an amazing warrior for sure, but walking through the warp like that uncorrputed implies a god-like virtue that eluded the Primarchs and was even a questionable realm of ability for the Emperor.

Let's take away the daemon slaying and destruction of well known chaotic landmarks for a moment, and just look at Draigo the warp traveler. Spending that much time completely uncorrupted while immersing himself in the warp puts him on a superman pedestal so far above humanity that he is effectively untouchable. There's being an incredible warrior paragon of an ancient brotherhood of daemonhunters, and then there's existing constantly immersed in the most corrupting influence in the galaxy, that has toppled demigods reliably, without so much as getting your hands dirty (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Most of the fluff is surprisingly decent, but I think Draigo really does take it too far. He is shown to be so incorruptible, and so powerful, that he basically becomes a "Daemon Prince of the Emperor". Some folks might care for that stuff, but it's not to my tastes.

But we've just covered this. Being incorruptible, and fearless, and even a strong warrior, is not inherently over the top nor does it suddenly catapult you to a pedestal above the rest of humanity.

Also I have no problem at all believing the primarchs were not particular virtuous, or that the Emperor was not particularly infallible. There's no evidence that the Emperor was fallen to the taint of chaos and he spends his entire time shielding humanity from their influence, which I would think would require a lot more concentration and power than shielding one person. Moreover Draigo is a genetically engineered super soldier whereas the emperor is just... a guy. To me that makes the emperor a little bit more impressive.

You can be a great warrior and incorruptible and all your accomplishments can still mean nothing.

I have no problem with him not being corrupted yet. The part that sounds over the top, to me, is all his heroic exploits. Surely it's not that easy to knock over demons in their own realm. But then, we have calgar taking out an avatar so, *shrug*. Maybe we're supposed to think these are tales that have grown in the telling. Afterall, who is going to be indepently verifying dragio's tale? Absolutely no one but himself.

For all we know he spends his days cowering in the warp's equivalent of under the stairs crying for his mommy and desperately hoping the warp will spit him out for a few blessed hours.

Theocracity
21-02-2011, 19:25
I'm not worried about Draigo's incorruptibility in the Warp. The main difference between Draigo and the other powerful figures that have been mentioned is that Draigo is a Grey Knight - a group whose entire purpose is being bulwarks against Warp corruption. As awesome as the Emperor was, he wasnt solely focused on resisting the Warp - he had a lot of other stuff to worry about. Draigo's entire life purpose is fighting Chaos, and he's the best of an entire order of Chaos fighting Astartes badasses.

If equating Draigo with Tolkien doesn't do it for you, here's a darker suggestion I enjoy: Clint Eastwood's Man with No Name. Think about it: Draigo the bitter, unkillable lone wanderer; unaligned Furies as the townsfolk, terrified of him but needing his help to ward off the predations of the servants of the Ruinous Powers. He plays them off one another, eventually leaving the chaos domain in ruin, as he silently moves on to the next stable plane....

It's the 40K version of High Plains Drifter :D

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 19:30
Plus Draigo was spit into the Warp on 901 M41, so barring timey wimey effects, he has not been in there very long.

Grey knights are trained and equipped to be anethema to daemons, like walking Gellar fields. Their mere presence is said to be painful for the daemonic. Just as warp spawn in the material world are said to be difficult to defeat by mortal weapons, a ship or person warded against the warp is protected from its denizens, or warp travel would be impossible.

Draigo has protection from the warp, and is doing his job of tearing up as much of chaos as he can, but in the end it doesn't matter much, as everything he kills or destroys merely reforms. The Chaos Gods probably find him more amusing than anything. Just another thing to compete over, like mocking the other powers when he kills their champions. They probably find him hilarious, trying to hurt them in the warp.

tuebor
21-02-2011, 20:05
Draigo has protection from the warp, and is doing his job of tearing up as much of chaos as he can, but in the end it doesn't matter much, as everything he kills or destroys merely reforms. The Chaos Gods probably find him more amusing than anything. Just another thing to compete over, like mocking the other powers when he kills their champions. They probably find him hilarious, trying to hurt them in the warp.

This is sort of my take on it too. He's the 40k version of Bill Murray in Groundhog Day, absolutely everything he does is ultimately meaningless. He was given the slight hope that he may someday escape but the Chaos powers are amused by the futility of his current existence. They give him brief tastes of freedom but then cruelly yank him back into the Warp where nothing he does has any meaning. I could see the Chaos gods being amused at playing with something as powerful as the GK Grand Master that way.

Xandros
21-02-2011, 20:25
Someone just told me that the GK have Jesus on there side... I have no idea what they're on about tbh, any of you knw what he's talking about... Or can i put it down he's had way too much Red Bull?

Spirituality. Grey Knights don't conform to the narrow morals of the Imperium at large. They are as familiar with sin as a chirurgeon is internal organs.

Sekhmet
21-02-2011, 20:42
As far as the rules goes I'm largely unplussed by the rumours.

Rhinos and razorbacks? Not having these sort of set the GKs apart.

Librarians? Uh, I guess. Putting Librarians in a chapter of psychic marines seems overkill, but I suppose it makes sense.

Organisation and explansion of GK units is cool. Apart from the Dreadknight. :eyebrows:

Removal of WS5? Somewhat detracts from the "elite of the elite of the elite" feel but meh, can live with it.

Inquisitors... are hugely disappointing. :cries: Really the Inquisitors were always my favourite parts of the "Hunters" books (surprised?) and they kind of sucked except as fire support. Not that it stopped me from using them as assault units, while expensive at least you could palm wounds off on the acolytes and do a bit of damage. I was really hoping the new rules would make them a force to be feared while still keeping their stats within human ranges. Their henchmen needed a boost to be the kind of double-hard nutter an Inquisitor would keep around him or her.

Now what has happened to them? Inquisitors are only WS4/BS4 (really, commissars are better trained than Inquisitors?) no immunity from instant death or way to avoid being smacked in combat. Some neat gear does make up a little.

Henchmen. I expected henchmen to be lumped into one unit ... but they're just all so awful I can't imagine ever taking a unit except perhaps as a fire support unit. Return of the Jokaero is amusing, but the options for henchmen are so insanely overcosted or underpowered. Hardly a band of the hardest boiled individuals in the galaxy. And what happened to Daemonhosts?!
Cherubael could take on TITANS!

I'd like to run a Inquisitorial Task Force with Chamber Militant support but that looks largely impossible from what I've seen. If you're a pure-GK player then the book looks alright, but the Inquisitorial aspects are a huge disappointment.

idk dude, stormshield + power weapon body guards for the price of a marine sounds pretty cheap to me.

VonManstein
21-02-2011, 20:46
idk dude, stormshield + power weapon body guards for the price of a marine sounds pretty cheap to me.
1 attack, T3 and S3? Only nice for their 3++. But Henchmen squads don't gain that much with it as they die to normal fire anyways. A few might not be a bad idea though.

Deathcult Assassins have more potential in my opinion.

Sekhmet
21-02-2011, 20:59
1 attack, T3 and S3? Only nice for their 3++. But Henchmen squads don't gain that much with it as they die to normal fire anyways. A few might not be a bad idea though.

Deathcult Assassins have more potential in my opinion.

I was thinking something like 5 guys with storm shields and 5 deathcult assassins. Large amount of killy potential, a decent amount of survivability. Would give a 10 man tactical squad with power fist a run for its money. Probably also a marine assault squad, regardless of apothecary, since DCAs have higher initiative than a furious charging marine.

neko
21-02-2011, 21:15
Random thought with regards to the Warp Quake issue:
If I understand my rumours right, Warp Quake is a psychic power, and a GKSS will fail to us it 1/6 of the time. Considering the number of squads you'd need to blanket the board, there seems to be a good chance that at least one squad will fail their test, leaving an opening for daemons to deep strike into.

It may not be much, and it may not stop the ability from being overpowered, but it's something that would make the power not as bad as a lot of people seem to be saying.

Worsle
21-02-2011, 21:16
I was thinking something like 5 guys with storm shields and 5 deathcult assassins. Large amount of killy potential, a decent amount of survivability. Would give a 10 man tactical squad with power fist a run for its money. Probably also a marine assault squad, regardless of apothecary, since DCAs have higher initiative than a furious charging marine.

You know I would hope your melee unit would do better than a tactical squad in melee. Tactical marines are a shooting unit and if you can't do better than them you are not good at what you do.

Sekhmet
21-02-2011, 21:22
You know I would hope your melee unit would do better than a tactical squad in melee. Tactical marines are a shooting unit and if you can't do better than them you are not good at what you do.
That squad would win combat receiving a furious charging 10man assault squad too.

Theocracity
21-02-2011, 21:26
Or you could just roll like the Eldar and Dark Eldar do - use psychic support from your Inquisitor to win, or tarpit with assault henchmen while allowing well-equipped shooty henchmen to do their thing.

DJ3
21-02-2011, 22:18
Random thought with regards to the Warp Quake issue:
If I understand my rumours right, Warp Quake is a psychic power, and a GKSS will fail to us it 1/6 of the time. Considering the number of squads you'd need to blanket the board, there seems to be a good chance that at least one squad will fail their test, leaving an opening for daemons to deep strike into.

It may not be much, and it may not stop the ability from being overpowered, but it's something that would make the power not as bad as a lot of people seem to be saying.

Then you're just not understanding the size of a 12" bubble radiating from 10 models at 2" coherency. It would only take three units to black out the entire board.

Meanwhile, in Dawn of War, it only takes two units to effectively make the game unplayable--there would be one ~12" wide area, 6" from the opposing board edge, for a Daemon player to attempt to fit their entire army into. Virtually any scatter of 6" or more results in a Mishap, and an average scatter is 7".

Here's the MSPaint representation of that, to scale:

106264

That's not some dramatic, one-in-a-thousand scenario dependent upon a dozen things going right and someone using a heavily tailored list.

It's two units of basic Troops, in one of the three basic Deployment types, practically auto-winning a game for passing two Ld9 Psychic Tests.

That should make it very obvious why people are expecting Warp Quake to be dramatically different than what's presented in the leaked book.

Azzy
21-02-2011, 22:49
Turin is one of my favorite literary characters of all time

Mine too. :)


Comparing Tolkien's writing to Matt Wards is the pinnacle of insanity.

*le sigh*

I'm not comparing Tolkien's writing to Ward's (there's a huge difference in depth, vision, quality and attention to detail). What I was comparing is the type of character (of which Tolkien's Turin is solely an example)--it's the doomed/cursed hero archetype.


This isn't high fantasy! It's a sad thing that you would point to Tolkien to reference 40k fluff...if I wanted incorruptible heroes I'd be playing in a different setting.

Firstly, Tolkien's Middle Earth isn't high fantasy. Secondly, 40K is far and away much closer to being high fantasy than Middle Earth with its questing space knights, space elves (with their clown-ninja), demons and commonplace magic. That said, despite the commonness of the fantastical within the setting, 40K has a darker feel than most high fantasy.

TheMav80
21-02-2011, 22:51
Another loyalist marine book? Yawn.

I don't really care how powerful the book is at all.

neko
21-02-2011, 22:55
@DJ3
Congratulations, you have successfully regurgitated a map showing an area with which you have at an estimate over a 50% chance of deepstriking into. You have also regurgitated the claim that the power is overpowered, which if you had bothered to read my post you would have noticed I didn't deny could still be the case.

On the flip side, you didn't bother saying a single thing about the possibility of a GKSS failing to cast Warp Quake, and thereby opening up a massive chunk of the board. Therefore my point still stands - even in the rumoured form, the power isn't as overpowered as is being made out.

Lord Inquisitor
21-02-2011, 23:01
idk dude, stormshield + power weapon body guards for the price of a marine sounds pretty cheap to me.
The stormshield is okay and good for being shot at when you're not in cover, but in melee it's still only a 3+ save. For the same cost as a tactical marine you've got a normal human with a single power weapon. Against bolter fire or normal combat attacks you're paying 15 points for a human in power armour with no gun.

Sadly mixed-bag Inquisitorial retinues probably aren't that amazing. But now that I've calmed down and looked at it again, spamming individual henchmen might be the way forward. 12 multimelta or heavy bolter servitors? Okay, they need to be babysat. Or maybe even not? They're possibly cheap enough to take units of 12 with heavy weapons and just accept they'll only fire every other turn. Units of 8 Psykers with 4 plasmagun warriors in chimera, blasting out a S10 large blast plus 4 plasma. Or just doing the IG thing. 12 Warriors with plasma guns? Expensive but there's not much that can eat 24 S7 Ap2 shots, even at BS3. 12 Arcos assaulting from a stormraven could be entertaining. 60 WS5, S5 attacks? Equally, 12 Death Cultists would be one hell of an alpha-strike unit. Jokaero are expensive but interesting. With only T3 both units would have to damn well kill whatever they hit.

So maybe they're not all bad. It just isn't quite what I wanted to see. Units where they complement each other would have been so much better, a motley crew of Inquisitorial nutters. Instead I think we're going to see units of one type or another.

Sekhmet
21-02-2011, 23:17
The stormshield is okay and good for being shot at when you're not in cover, but in melee it's still only a 3+ save. For the same cost as a tactical marine you've got a normal human with a single power weapon. Against bolter fire or normal combat attacks you're paying 15 points for a human in power armour with no gun.

Sadly mixed-bag Inquisitorial retinues probably aren't that amazing. But now that I've calmed down and looked at it again, spamming individual henchmen might be the way forward. 12 multimelta or heavy bolter servitors? Okay, they need to be babysat. Or maybe even not? They're possibly cheap enough to take units of 12 with heavy weapons and just accept they'll only fire every other turn. Units of 8 Psykers with 4 plasmagun warriors in chimera, blasting out a S10 large blast plus 4 plasma. Or just doing the IG thing. 12 Warriors with plasma guns? Expensive but there's not much that can eat 24 S7 Ap2 shots, even at BS3. 12 Arcos assaulting from a stormraven could be entertaining. 60 WS5, S5 attacks? Equally, 12 Death Cultists would be one hell of an alpha-strike unit. Jokaero are expensive but interesting. With only T3 both units would have to damn well kill whatever they hit.

So maybe they're not all bad. It just isn't quite what I wanted to see. Units where they complement each other would have been so much better, a motley crew of Inquisitorial nutters. Instead I think we're going to see units of one type or another.

Maybe 4 Jokaero and 6 Psykers in a Chimera. :shifty:

Or 72 Warriors with plasma guns.

Or a whole bunch of Jokaero and that's it... Planet of the Apes in the GK codex.

Lord Inquisitor
21-02-2011, 23:33
Ha ha ha.

Actually... :angel:

Presuming Henchmen bought with Corteaz are counted as full Troops, an army that looks like this:

Corteaz
6x9 Jokaero

... could actually work. Turn 1 - 54 lascannon ash your transports. Turn 2+ pick off survivors. Just model Corteaz as Charlton Heston and an objective marker that looks like half the statue of liberty and you'd be ready to troll the local game store... :D

Sekhmet
21-02-2011, 23:39
Ha ha ha.

Actually... :angel:

Presuming Henchmen bought with Corteaz are counted as full Troops, an army that looks like this:

Corteaz
6x9 Jokaero

... could actually work. Turn 1 - 54 lascannon ash your transports. Turn 2+ pick off survivors. Just model Corteaz as Charlton Heston and an objective marker that looks like half the statue of liberty and you'd be ready to troll the local game store... :D

"What codex are you using?"
"Grey Knights."
"K, let me make a list (with a lot of plasma)"
...
"Wait I thought you said Grey Knights, not APES WITH LASCANNONS!!!1"

Zechariah
22-02-2011, 00:30
you know as grey knight players we need to stop all the whining seriously if we keep it up the dark eldar players will lose there trophy! and then they will be louder than befor and the battle of whinyness will consume the planet and cause mas histaria... ok maby not but still!

Dooks Dizzo
22-02-2011, 01:14
I've let Daemons use normal deployment rules in games against me for over a year now. Makes for more fun for everyone and is REALLY easy to do.

Infidel
22-02-2011, 02:56
Random thought with regards to the Warp Quake issue:
If I understand my rumours right, Warp Quake is a psychic power, and a GKSS will fail to us it 1/6 of the time. Considering the number of squads you'd need to blanket the board, there seems to be a good chance that at least one squad will fail their test, leaving an opening for daemons to deep strike into.

It may not be much, and it may not stop the ability from being overpowered, but it's something that would make the power not as bad as a lot of people seem to be saying.
Denied entry might be a bit strong a word to use, since that implies that the entire board gets blanketed out by Warp Quake. The reality of the situation is, around 2 squads of GKSS will be able to black out enough of the board to make any relevant deepstrike positioning impossible.

Our reinforcement cannot arrive where it counts and with the exception of our cavalry (which is very fragile) and winged units (which is really expensive), the rest of the army must foot slog its way to where the fighting is.


@DJ3
Congratulations, you have successfully regurgitated a map showing an area with which you have at an estimate over a 50% chance of deepstriking into. You have also regurgitated the claim that the power is overpowered, which if you had bothered to read my post you would have noticed I didn't deny could still be the case.

On the flip side, you didn't bother saying a single thing about the possibility of a GKSS failing to cast Warp Quake, and thereby opening up a massive chunk of the board. Therefore my point still stands - even in the rumoured form, the power isn't as overpowered as is being made out.

He has made a clear case for why we consider the power broken beyond redemption. This isn't something like JaWW, it's a power on basic troops that can deploy/move via teleport. In the Dawn of War scenario, the moment you pass 2 LD9 psychic test, you basically auto-win the game. In any other scenario, we fail to get first turn, GKSS teleports and casts Warp Quake, we basically auto-lose the game. Killpoint mission, spread out your GKSS as a buffer for all your ranged shooting, shoot/kite and repeat, we basically auto lose the game. Should we get first turn and deepstrike perfectly, you disembark/teleport your GKSS and now our reinforcement have to land 2~3 turns of walking/running away and we have half of our army against all of yours for the entire game.

Sure, we can hope that a squad of GKSS fail their psychic test, but then, what's to say we'll only ever face 2 squads of GKSS? what about 3? What about the usual hazards that's already present in regular deepstrike? It's not uncommon for us to lose an 200pt+ units to mishaps even on an open board, and now reduce usable space by a good 50%. There is no case against this being game-breaking.


I've let Daemons use normal deployment rules in games against me for over a year now. Makes for more fun for everyone and is REALLY easy to do.

Alas, and be forced to foot-slog an army with no transport and no shooting to speak of across the board?

Against any mech opponent, it's a case of drop in as close as possible and compress their manoeuvrability, or otherwise we'll get kited to death. Against GK mech, sure we might still be able to put our guys a long way away from your force, but then instead of weathering a turn or 2 of shooting then assault, it now a case of being shot/kited until we get tabled or concede.

Draconis
22-02-2011, 03:17
Draigo sounds like the Emperor reborn....

Dooks Dizzo
22-02-2011, 06:33
Alas, and be forced to foot-slog an army with no transport and no shooting to speak of across the board?Or deep strike or whatever.

DJ3
22-02-2011, 07:04
On the flip side, you didn't bother saying a single thing about the possibility of a GKSS failing to cast Warp Quake, and thereby opening up a massive chunk of the board. Therefore my point still stands - even in the rumoured form, the power isn't as overpowered as is being made out.

Uhh...

What?

You're saying that it's overpowered, just not "too" overpowered, because someone might fail a Ld9 Psychic Test to not win the game automatically?

So you'd be okay with walking up to a table, having your opponent roll 2d6, and if neither of those dice are a 1, you just declare him the victor and walk away? And the fact that he might roll a 1 means it's okay?

I think you and I have very different opinions of the meaning of the word "overpowered."

chromedog
22-02-2011, 08:03
I know it's a bit too early to pass judgment but, Psylencer? Dreadnight? I don't think I can take Grey Knights seriously anymore

Seriously? Why does ANYone really take 40k AT ALL seriously?

It has a sentient motile space fungus designed to be nothing but hired muscle and who act like English football hooligans (or perhaps just Juventas fans?).
Space Elfs with guns that shoot ninja stars.
Space dinosaur lizard bugs with guns that shoot more bugs.
Space Knights with automatic rocket propelled grenade launchers - the rounds of which explode AFTER they punch into you.
Bullet magnets/meat shields.
Moar space knights (in red, this time).
Spiky space knights who lost the war and insist on prolonging it.

Space orangutans who can create superminiaturised technology that certain elements of Imperial Society can use - despite 'xenos' tech supposedly being tech-heresy - and they somehow don't get executed for it.

I gave up on taking 40k seriously about 20 years ago.

I'll wait until I see the final product before passing judgement. It has been strongly rumoured for some time that the writer had what he had seriously re-written by the PTB - and as a result, he refused to even play the army for the write-up so it was left to a probie.

theJ
22-02-2011, 10:34
What I think of the codex?

The rumours have me worried, but (by principle) I'm not going to pass judgement until I've read through it properly (probably won't buy it until I've read through it, either -.-)

Lord Khabal
22-02-2011, 10:43
I think that the previous released codexes have been well balanced. I think that we should reserve judgement until the GK codex is out. I think that I've seen these "cheese" cryes before every other codex that came before this one and guess what? We still play 40k...

Hendarion
22-02-2011, 10:50
and guess what? We still play 40k...
But not all of us. Lots of my friends stopped playing because they hate how 40k is derailing and how each new Codex is only overpowered to drive sales-numbers, not to create a well-balanced game that can played over years.
Most of them now play Warmachines or Warhordes.

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 11:00
As above, I've switched over to mainly Fantasy as far as GW games go and am looking into more into other systems in different scales.

Flogger23
22-02-2011, 11:34
But not all of us. Lots of my friends stopped playing because they hate how 40k is derailing and how each new Codex is only overpowered to drive sales-numbers, not to create a well-balanced game that can played over years.


Despite my complaints about the leaked codex, I don't think GW is either that stupid, or that smart. Tyranid codex is widely perceived as weakish and many of the entries don't even have models, thus GW can't sell them. Vanilla SM codex was hardly overpowered either, even when it came out. IG, SW and BA each have individual entries which are too good for their points cost, but when was it any different? Besides, those armies were amongst the weakest with their previous book.

Never assign to malice what can be assigned to incompetence.

x-esiv-4c
22-02-2011, 11:43
Henchmen armies (doable through Coteaz) look quite abusable. I imagine in the final release there would be a max of number of plasmagun wielding henchies. Otherwise you can get a squad of 3 servitors with plasma cannons and 9 plasma gun toting maniacs for under 200 pts.

tuebor
22-02-2011, 11:44
But not all of us. Lots of my friends stopped playing because they hate how 40k is derailing and how each new Codex is only overpowered to drive sales-numbers, not to create a well-balanced game that can played over years.
Most of them now play Warmachines or Warhordes.

How long ago did they stop playing? 40k has been like that for at least a decade.

Morlu
22-02-2011, 11:55
The discussions on warp quake in particular seem a little premature, we dont yet know exactly how the powers work, the map drawn which covers half the board shows a 12" bubble around every single model in the squad... I would think it is far more likely that the bubble will be centred around the Justicar only which will significantly reduce the amount of coverage meaning you would need 6 squads to effectively cover the whole board...chances are you are only ever going to have 2, maybe 3 so at least half the board would be accessable. Lets just stop all the crying and complaining until we see the ACTUAL codex shall we?

jt.glass
22-02-2011, 12:25
Call mit pessimistic, but it can only get worse. Just like the leaked BA dex.Er, didn't the "leaked" BA 'dex bear a passing resemblence at best to the actual product?

In other words, it was an elaborate and well-produced hoax just like this one probably is...


jt.

Korraz
22-02-2011, 12:29
Yes. The hoax-dex was a masterwork, compared to the real one.

SgtTaters
22-02-2011, 13:35
Henchmen armies (doable through Coteaz) look quite abusable. I imagine in the final release there would be a max of number of plasmagun wielding henchies. Otherwise you can get a squad of 3 servitors with plasma cannons and 9 plasma gun toting maniacs for under 200 pts.

I thought that too, but then I realized "Mindlock". Without an inquisitor they will do nothing 50% of the time, and stall the rest of the unit too.

Still, that means you can have Coteaz+3 plasma servitors, then a 25pt inquisitor with 3 more servitors. 6 plasma cannons is still pretty good.

ALSO another thing to consider, Psykers. They have a 36" s3 ap6 large blast that powers up by one degree per factor. Sit 8 of them in a Chimera and you have a mobile s10 ap1 pieplate machine for about the cost of any artillery tank in the game, except this one's a Troops choice.

x-esiv-4c
22-02-2011, 13:38
Ack, forgot about mindlock.

Nevertheless, massive plasma-spam is quite scary.

Wolf Lord Balrog
22-02-2011, 14:29
I kinda liked the idea of a Coteaz-henchman-horde consisting of Coteaz and 40 jokaero. Or alternatively Coteaz, 30 jokaero, and 6 chimeras. Just the idea of being able to fire that many lascannons. :D

Charax
22-02-2011, 14:43
I was contemplating mixed squads of jokaero/assassins/warriors. minimum of 4 jokaero, say hello to 36" plasmagunny death

Brotheroracle
22-02-2011, 16:08
I am still more worried about the no line of sight needing rending autocannons the rumors talking about. Well that and a general undercosting in the whole list

loveless
22-02-2011, 16:17
I didn't read the entire thread, didn't read the "leak" and only glanced at the images, but I'll say this:

I don't care about Grey Knights. I'm sure they'll be plenty of fun and will look spectacular, but I've never been much for Ordo Malleus. Bring me the Ordo Hereticus - bring me my wide-brimmed hats, Infernus pistols, and stake-crossbows (which, looking at some of the jazz with Coteaz, may be possible...)

Actually, if we're seperating them, just bring me my Adepta Sororitas and be done with it :p

Dux
22-02-2011, 16:22
I am still more worried about the no line of sight needing rending autocannons the rumors talking about.

... allowing an 4+ cover save. But yeah this ability is scary.
I think someone at GW-HQ watched the movie "Wanted" too often.


I don't care about Grey Knights. I'm sure they'll be plenty of fun and will look spectacular, but I've never been much for Ordo Malleus. Bring me the Ordo Hereticus - bring me my wide-brimmed hats, Infernus pistols, and stake-crossbows (which, looking at some of the jazz with Coteaz, may be possible...)

Ordo Hereticus is in (Xenos too). But you'll need Coteaz to play without Grey Knights.
Infernopistol is in (at least something with that name).

loveless
22-02-2011, 16:31
Ordo Hereticus is in (Xenos too). But you'll need Coteaz to play without Grey Knights.
Infernopistol is in (at least something with that name).

Oh...damn...

*preps self to preorder Grey Knights book*

neko
22-02-2011, 17:11
Uhh...

What?

You're saying that it's overpowered, just not "too" overpowered, because someone might fail a Ld9 Psychic Test to not win the game automatically?

So you'd be okay with walking up to a table, having your opponent roll 2d6, and if neither of those dice are a 1, you just declare him the victor and walk away? And the fact that he might roll a 1 means it's okay?

I think you and I have very different opinions of the meaning of the word "overpowered."
:wtf:

Seriously, I'm going to have to call bull on you. I've never said that it was not "too" overpowered, so you're just blatently making stuff up as you go along now. As much as you seem attached to your chicken little routine, you really shouldn't go rabid on anyone who says "What happens when we take this into account?"

SgtTaters
22-02-2011, 17:13
just realized something

Culexus Assassin,
Animus Speculum 12" s5 ap1 assault 2
*for every Psyker within 12", add +2 to the animus speculum assault value

... if you take a squad of 12 psykers and they disembark from a chimera, you've just given the Culexus an assault 26 s5 ap1 gun

Mannimarco
22-02-2011, 17:20
Yep its what made the psyker battle squad so fun when you used it with the old daemonhunters dex.

Sekhmet
22-02-2011, 17:32
I kinda liked the idea of a Coteaz-henchman-horde consisting of Coteaz and 40 jokaero. Or alternatively Coteaz, 30 jokaero, and 6 chimeras. Just the idea of being able to fire that many lascannons. :D

I thought about your later idea and named it:
CHIMERAPE

Chimeras and Jokaero (apes)...
>.>

Vhalyar
22-02-2011, 17:38
... if you take a squad of 12 psykers and they disembark from a chimera, you've just given the Culexus an assault 26 s5 ap1 gun

Except that they only count as a single psyker.

Lastie
22-02-2011, 17:48
Except that they only count as a single psyker.

What about a squad of henchmen psykers?

Xandros
22-02-2011, 17:54
I thought about your later idea and named it:
CHIMERAPE

Chimeras and Jokaero (apes)...
>.>

That's bad and you should feel bad.

I don't think it sounds that scary. Nice troops for sure, but it seems like they'll be lacking support. Space Marines normally are their own support, so henchmen may be struggling.

I see great potential in the unit. Henchmen cultists or pseudo-guardsmen, arbitrators or stormtroopers. Or a squad full of daemonhosts for the occasional devastating barrage, or a psyker battle squad or a mix of a few units with feel no pain and invulnerable saves for better wound allocation. A squad of henchmen or other with a couple of death cultists for close combat punch. Many things can be done here, but I doubt that an army composed of chimeras will be a problem to anyone that has already adapted to fight Imperial Guard.

Lord Inquisitor
22-02-2011, 18:00
What about a squad of henchmen psykers?

It's going to be one for the FAQ (already? :rolleyes:) if the final version doesn't have tighter wording.

I suspect that as henchmen psykers and grey knights count one model as the psyker when casting, the psykers will only count as one psyker for the Speculum's effects. The alternative is quite horrible. Just one squad of psykers could turn it into an Assault 26 weapon.

Skyros
22-02-2011, 18:04
Ack, forgot about mindlock.

Nevertheless, massive plasma-spam is quite scary.

I don't find it so. Last edition, maybe.

The leaked codex, at any rate, was quite clear that the unit counts as a single psyker.

x-esiv-4c
22-02-2011, 18:12
"I don't find it so. Last edition, maybe."

Last edition, no army had the ability to field every unit with plasma guns.

Aluinn
22-02-2011, 18:39
I think it's odd that people are focusing on Jokaero, in terms of ideas for powerful henchmen squads. Jokaero cost a LOT of points and can only ever, in any number, get you two squad upgrades--and chances are quite good that you'll only get one even if you do roll "The Works", because any of those two rolls which turn up as 1 or 6 do nothing (you can't get another round of "The Works", as duplicates are ignored). Their weapons are very good, too, and yet you're still only firing one heavy weapon per turn with a BS3 model.

No, the henchmen squad is potentially brokenly good not because of Jokaero, but because of Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders, Servitors, and Warrior Acolytes. Let's break these down:

Death Cult Assassins: They cost one less point than an ordinary Howling Banshee, and yet have a better statline than a Howling Banshee Exarch, along with a save which is better in most situations. Crucially, they have additional Strength, as low Strength is usually the downfall of entire power-weapon-wielding units (such as, ah, Howling Banshees). I realize that cross-codex comparisons such as this aren't always fair, but I'm not seeing how the manner in which henchmen fit in the GK army (they are Troops if you take an extremely cheap SC, and thus can be spammed to high heaven, as well as capture objectives) ought to allow them to be this criminally cheap for what they do. Any way you slice it, the stats and equipment of this model are just vastly better than the points cost should allow. They might be fair at 20 points. Maybe. Seriously, these are Harlequins on crack at a lower price, with "free" power weapons. The only mitigating factor is that they lack Fleet, but the price allowing you to take so many more of them pretty much makes up for that, and their transport options are no worse than anyone else's, really, for the cost.

Crusaders: Absurdly low points cost for a model with a storm shield, by any standard. For a Warrior Acolyte to buy a storm shield as an upgrade is judged fair at 5 points more (for the item alone, mind you) than the entire Crusader himself. He also gets a power weapon, if that weren't enough. He isn't particularly deadly in close combat, sure, but taking a few Crusaders is a stupidly cheap way to make any henchmen unit supremely tough, and a power weapon attack is usually good for something.

Servitors: The cost of a Fire Warrior, with superior stats (and the same armor), but they take free heavy weapons. Specifically, a Fire Warrior with a heavy bolter or multi-melta at no additional cost. Oh, and they can also take what I believe is the cheapest plasma cannon in the game, if you prefer that. Is this starting to seem dumb, yet? Yeah, they need to be babysat by an Inquisitor, but it's not like he has better things to do. Again, I realize I'm doing that cross-army comparison thing, but it's just to give an idea of how ridiculously low the points cost for these guys really is. The power is only truly mitigated by the limit of three heavies, and it's a good thing. The problem is that there is no limit on special weapons for ...

Warrior Acolytes: I hope you like spamming plasma and melta, because these guys put any previous attempt to spam plasma and melta to abject shame. What's more (and I'm starting to notice a theme here), they do it vastly more cheaply than anyone else can. Well, Fire Dragons might rival them for low-cost melta, but then Fire Dragons are not Troops, and these dudes are still cheaper, albeit with notably worse stats. The real story, though, IMO, is a squad of 12 plasma guns, which typically cost more than melta, yet do not for the Warrior Acolyte, for 140 points. Realistically, you'll throw in some ablative wound guys with bolters, and possibly a Jokaero and/or some Servitors, but it's still crazy. Do it six times and you will make people cry. They bust transports, they kill MCs, they ignore FnP, they rapid fire your butt if you get too close, etc.

Now, the Jokaero is not bad, but a unit with a lot of Jokaero isn't an especially good deal for its cost, and when you can get any of the above for frankly unbelievably low cost, it looks like an even worse way to go. As I see it, you'd want to take a single Jokaero to gain the upgrade roll, but not more. A '6' on the chart isn't as wonderful as it seems, and 2-5 are all comparably good. In fact, '2' (extended range) may be the best for a unit full of special and heavy weapons. It pretty much makes your meltaguns into Assault multi-meltas. That's nuts.

Along with basic (or jump-packin') power-armor GKs, the Dreadknight, and maybe Mordrak's retinue, the henchmen are the most undercosted unit in the book, though not all choices are grand. Special mention goes to the Arco-Flagellant, which is not quite as awesome as the other close combat choices, but when mixed in with them gives them an edge against hordes that they would otherwise possibly struggle with.

Lord Inquisitor
22-02-2011, 19:42
I think it's odd that people are focusing on Jokaero, in terms of ideas for powerful henchmen squads. Jokaero cost a LOT of points and can only ever, in any number, get you two squad upgrades--and chances are quite good that you'll only get one even if you do roll "The Works", because any of those two rolls which turn up as 1 or 6 do nothing (you can't get another round of "The Works", as duplicates are ignored). Their weapons are very good, too, and yet you're still only firing one heavy weapon per turn with a BS3 model.
Agreed. The way it's worded, the Jokaero table actually gets worse the more you add to a squad. Two seems to be the optimum number for the table (as it guarantees a useful result). That said, spamming 5 Jokaero in Chimera is going to be very very hard to deal with that many lascannon or meltas.


Death Cult Assassins: They cost one less point than an ordinary Howling Banshee, and yet have a better statline than a Howling Banshee Exarch, along with a save which is better in most situations. Crucially, they have additional Strength, as low Strength is usually the downfall of entire power-weapon-wielding units (such as, ah, Howling Banshees). I realize that cross-codex comparisons such as this aren't always fair, but I'm not seeing how the manner in which henchmen fit in the GK army (they are Troops if you take an extremely cheap SC, and thus can be spammed to high heaven, as well as capture objectives) ought to allow them to be this criminally cheap for what they do. Any way you slice it, the stats and equipment of this model are just vastly better than the points cost should allow. They might be fair at 20 points. Maybe. Seriously, these are Harlequins on crack at a lower price, with "free" power weapons. The only mitigating factor is that they lack Fleet, but the price allowing you to take so many more of them pretty much makes up for that, and their transport options are no worse than anyone else's, really, for the cost.
Yes, these are probably the best of the henchmen for their cost. 12 in a Stormraven should be an alpha-strike that nothing can stand up to. BUT they're a glass hammer, so I don't know that they're broken. T3 with a 5+ save for the same cost as marines?

I don't know that comparisons with Banshees are fair, that's an old codex. But they do indeed look very good. I plan a unit of 12.


Crusaders: Absurdly low points cost for a model with a storm shield, by any standard. For a Warrior Acolyte to buy a storm shield as an upgrade is judged fair at 5 points more (for the item alone, mind you) than the entire Crusader himself. He also gets a power weapon, if that weren't enough. He isn't particularly deadly in close combat, sure, but taking a few Crusaders is a stupidly cheap way to make any henchmen unit supremely tough, and a power weapon attack is usually good for something.
I just don't see it. The same cost as a marine, with no gun, lower S and T, no ATSKNF? Yeah, inv and power weapon but nowhere near broken.

As for the Warrior Acolyte, the points for some of the upgrades are just borked as they stand in the beta. They pay considerably more for just about everything than full Inquisitors do.


Servitors: The cost of a Fire Warrior, with superior stats (and the same armor), but they take free heavy weapons. Specifically, a Fire Warrior with a heavy bolter or multi-melta at no additional cost. Oh, and they can also take what I believe is the cheapest plasma cannon in the game, if you prefer that. Is this starting to seem dumb, yet? Yeah, they need to be babysat by an Inquisitor, but it's not like he has better things to do. Again, I realize I'm doing that cross-army comparison thing, but it's just to give an idea of how ridiculously low the points cost for these guys really is. The power is only truly mitigated by the limit of three heavies, and it's a good thing. The problem is that there is no limit on special weapons for ...
Yes, these are incredibly cheap. But they need to be baby-sat. That said, they're so cheap I would consider spamming servitors and just sucking up the mindlock roll.

Imagine 6x12 servitors with multi-meltas? That still leaves me with about half the points in a 1500 army for grey knight choppy death stuff.


Warrior Acolytes: I hope you like spamming plasma and melta, because these guys put any previous attempt to spam plasma and melta to abject shame. What's more (and I'm starting to notice a theme here), they do it vastly more cheaply than anyone else can. Well, Fire Dragons might rival them for low-cost melta, but then Fire Dragons are not Troops, and these dudes are still cheaper, albeit with notably worse stats. The real story, though, IMO, is a squad of 12 plasma guns, which typically cost more than melta, yet do not for the Warrior Acolyte, for 140 points. Realistically, you'll throw in some ablative wound guys with bolters, and possibly a Jokaero and/or some Servitors, but it's still crazy. Do it six times and you will make people cry. They bust transports, they kill MCs, they ignore FnP, they rapid fire your butt if you get too close, etc.
Yes. While many of the upgrades for Acolytes are overpriced as I've said, the ability to spam specials is seriously concerning. I mean, wow. They'll overheat themselves pretty badly, and they're expensive for very fragile units, but nevertheless 24 plasma shots from a unit that doesn't cost as much as a tactical squad is very scary.

And even with bolters acolytes aren't bad. Same cost as a guardsman with a bolter and +1Ld?

Skyros
22-02-2011, 20:27
Crusaders: Absurdly low points cost for a model with a storm shield, by any standard. For a Warrior Acolyte to buy a storm shield as an upgrade is judged fair at 5 points more (for the item alone, mind you) than the entire Crusader himself. He also gets a power weapon, if that weren't enough. He isn't particularly deadly in close combat, sure, but taking a few Crusaders is a stupidly cheap way to make any henchmen unit supremely tough, and a power weapon attack is usually good for something.

I don't know that crusaders are that awesome. It's a savings over buying a henchman, a power weapon, and a storm shield, yes, but absolutely no one would ever buy that equipment for a henchman because it's absurdly overcosted. You could get a terminator with TH/SS instead for the same points.

A guy with one low I, low WS, low S power weapon attack is...not something really scary?

Units that have stormshields are really only useful if they *also* are powerful and/or have high armor saves.

Henchmen squads to not have high armor saves, so people can just hose them down with torrents of small fire. A storm shield on a couple crusaders in your squad will do absolutely nothing to help.

Now if someone decided to shoot lascannons or plasma at your squad of 0 henchmen then yes, a storm shield would help soak off a few wounds.

I'm thinking you'll probably want a crusader (or two) to accompany any inquisitor who doesn't have a good invuln save of his own, but that's about it.

Servitors are limited in number because they have to go with your inquisitor. One group of 3 or so will be nice, but other than that...This is also the only unit I would consider taking a jokaero for. A single weak BS3 model is too expensive otherwise for the points.

Of all of them I think DCA are the closest to being a nice must have unit.

many of them (arco flagellants, daemonhosts, mystics, banishers) seem very overcosted and not something you'd ever want to use.

Still, just the endless possiblities for mix and matching a squad has me excited. Best part of the book IMO, even if acolytes wind up a little bit more expensive and can't take endless special weapons.

I'm already trying to think of a good plastic equivalent for DCA...maybe converted wyches?

Wolf Lord Balrog
22-02-2011, 20:46
Yes, these are incredibly cheap. But they need to be baby-sat. That said, they're so cheap I would consider spamming servitors and just sucking up the mindlock roll.

Imagine 6x12 servitors with multi-meltas? That still leaves me with about half the points in a 1500 army for grey knight choppy death stuff.


Just a minor point about the servitors: you can't spam anywhere near that many. They are limited to a max of 3 servitors per henchmen warband, so the most you could have would be 6x3, not 6x12. And 2/3 of those would be subject to Mindlock because you can't have more than 2 Inquisitors.

Lord Inquisitor
22-02-2011, 20:49
Ah, you're right. I was getting overexcited again it seems. I was wondering where I'd get that many multimeltas from anyway :o

Aluinn
22-02-2011, 21:22
Yes, these are probably the best of the henchmen for their cost. 12 in a Stormraven should be an alpha-strike that nothing can stand up to. BUT they're a glass hammer, so I don't know that they're broken. T3 with a 5+ save for the same cost as marines?

I don't know that comparisons with Banshees are fair, that's an old codex. But they do indeed look very good. I plan a unit of 12.

+++


I just don't see it. The same cost as a marine, with no gun, lower S and T, no ATSKNF? Yeah, inv and power weapon but nowhere near broken.

As for the Warrior Acolyte, the points for some of the upgrades are just borked as they stand in the beta. They pay considerably more for just about everything than full Inquisitors do.


Yes, these are incredibly cheap. But they need to be baby-sat. That said, they're so cheap I would consider spamming servitors and just sucking up the mindlock roll.

Imagine 6x12 servitors with multi-meltas? That still leaves me with about half the points in a 1500 army for grey knight choppy death stuff.
[/COLOR]

Well, on the subject of Crusaders, it's not that a unit of 12 of them would ever be good as anything but a way to tie up expensive, elite stuff, or MCs. But, as you say, Death Cult Assassins are a glass hammer ... unless you take 6 DCA and 6 Crusaders. It doesn't hit as hard, but it will still make a mess of anything not in a vehicle (throw in a Banisher with eviscerator, the Inquisitorial man himself with whatever-anti-tank-stuff, or a couple of melta Warriors, and that's not so much an issue either), and it sure isn't made of glass anymore. The Crusaders do work with the DCA pretty well in close combat, in that they also have power weapons, albeit at lower Strength.

The general point is that they are a relatively cheap way to pad out an otherwise fragile unit with some "tough" (well-armored is more accurate :)) dudes.

The problem I see with this, and thank goodness I can see a weakness to henchmen units here, is that they're still extremely vulnerable to anti-infantry shooting. The 3++ is nice but not too useful when you're getting rapid-fired on by some bolters, lasguns, splinter rifles, etc.

Oh, and thank goodness also that the heavy weapon servitors can't be spammed like you proposed :).

I totally agree on the points costs of the Warrior Acolyte options, by the way. Absolutely no sense is made anywhere in that list, except maybe for meltaguns costing what they do. It stuns me that some of this stuff even made it to such an apparently late draft. I mean, personally, I am no master games designer, but I'm pretty sure I could come up with costs that made a lot more sense if I was just ballparking up a first draft of that.

Disclaimer: I may have given the impression that I was here to hate on this codex. That isn't true. If anything my criticism is due to my love of the background behind this army, or at least the Inquisitorial part of it. The original Daemonhunters army was the first GW ruleset that allowed me to fully bring my love for 40K fluff to the gaming table, so I want this book to be good.

Xandros
22-02-2011, 21:44
Death Cultists don't have banshee masks.

They don't even have frag grenades.

night2501
22-02-2011, 22:44
hell people here are really suffering form the Space marine syndrome... please remember that not all armies have 4 s filling the stat line (even tough the number of variants on SM are growing out of control they still SM), so when we see these things, having better stats, better rules, better weapons and on top being cheaper... is like a bad joke ... and no, having an older codex is no excuse, the game is supposed to be balanced regardless...

Sekhmet
22-02-2011, 22:55
That's bad and you should feel bad.

For less than 250 pts, you can have a chimera that fires 4 lascannons, a S7 AP2 large blast, a multi-laser, and heavy bolter. Oh and it's scoring.*

Chimerape.

Although that would perhaps be Psychimerape.

*If rumors are true

Skyros
22-02-2011, 23:50
I don't know why people think lascannons are so awesome. They aren't particularly good at killing tanks and they aren't my preferred anti-infantry weapon either.

Anyway, your description sounds a bit like a landraider. For 250 points I'd expect a lot of firepower!

Sekhmet
22-02-2011, 23:57
I don't know why people think lascannons are so awesome. They aren't particularly good at killing tanks and they aren't my preferred anti-infantry weapon either.

Anyway, your description sounds a bit like a landraider. For 250 points I'd expect a lot of firepower!
Well those lascannons can change out with multi-meltas if you want, like an obliterator. If the rumors are true.

night2501
22-02-2011, 23:57
I don't know why people think lascannons are so awesome. They aren't particularly good at killing tanks and they aren't my preferred anti-infantry weapon either.

Anyway, your description sounds a bit like a landraider. For 250 points I'd expect a lot of firepower!

...look at his hammerhead ... ToT

Culgore
23-02-2011, 00:01
I think a cool kit would allow you to build 3 different inquisitors, with all options, for the price of 3 HQ metals(Archon/Succubus). You would be able to use your non HQ guys as particularly badass Henchmen in Games. You could switch them out use the ones you want game to game. Just a thought I had.

Refyougee
23-02-2011, 00:17
the psyker/jokaero chimera idea is cute but putting so many points into a chimera is begging for it to get blown up and unlike a marine list you can easily expect half the guys inside to die when it does

spamming las/plas razorbacks is much scarier imo

Skyros
23-02-2011, 00:19
That would actually be really awesome.

Sekhmet
23-02-2011, 00:26
92 pt razorbacks with a tiny troop squad inside might be fun I guess? But it's not 40 lascannons.

DuskRaider
23-02-2011, 00:26
Matt Ward makes CS Goto look like Shakespeare.

In all seriousness, Ward is a plague on GW fluff. Whoever let this absolute garbage pass needs to be kicked to the curb along with Ward.

Rabid Bunny 666
23-02-2011, 00:37
I'm not too happy with the way the Grey Knights are panning out, more from a fluff perspective than anything else.

The list does seem broken, running Coteaz for henchmen troops and Karamazov together seems like a very good way to counter CC heavy armies, use the cheap firepower from the Henchmen and then shell them without scatter when the enemy reaches CC.

Aluinn
23-02-2011, 00:42
92 pt razorbacks with a tiny troop squad inside might be fun I guess? But it's not 40 lascannons.

40 lascannons (i.e. Jokaero) cost so much that, along with Coteaz (who you'd need to take in order to get the 40 Jokaero), in a 2,000-point army--which I regard as rather large--you'd barely have enough points left for two minimum-size GK Strike Squads with psycannons, which as I read it you would also need because henchmen squads do not occupy Force Org slots and thus don't count towards minimum Troops choices. Given how easy to kill the Jokaero will be, I don't think that makes a good army, at all. In fact, I'd say it makes a rather terrible army.

Fun? Well, maybe. It actually sounds kinda boring to me, but whatever floats your boat. Either way, though, I still think Jokaero are not a particularly great deal for their points beyond the first model in a squad, or maybe the second if you really want to eliminate the chance of rolling a 1 on their upgrade chart. Spamming heavy weapons is powerful in the abstract, but not exactly good when you're paying that much for them, on models that are only good for shooting and don't even have a high BS.

bonnettm
23-02-2011, 01:00
When the best thing in them arethe bare ass baboons then I would have to conclude.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. ........wait for it................................................ .................................................. .............................the Codex sucks big time.:rolleyes:

Sekhmet
23-02-2011, 01:01
When the best thing in them arethe bare ass baboons then I would have to conclude.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. ........wait for it................................................ .................................................. .............................the Codex sucks big time.:rolleyes:
Naw it's pretty cool. I think you can make like a 20 model army at 1500 pts if you wanted. I might do that too haha.

Wolf Lord Balrog
23-02-2011, 01:06
When I suggested the 40 jokaero / 30 jokaero in 6 chimeras, I was mostly being funny. It would, of course, be a one-trick pony. Nobody should be afraid of that.

Fugazi
23-02-2011, 03:32
Ha ha ha.

Actually... :angel:

Presuming Henchmen bought with Corteaz are counted as full Troops, an army that looks like this:

Corteaz
6x9 Jokaero

... could actually work. Turn 1 - 54 lascannon ash your transports. Turn 2+ pick off survivors. Just model Corteaz as Charlton Heston and an objective marker that looks like half the statue of liberty and you'd be ready to troll the local game store... :D
Please, please, please, do this.

Stealin' Genes
23-02-2011, 04:08
And then your opponent falls to his knees, yelling about how you blew it up, you maniac, god damn you to hell!

unheilig
23-02-2011, 04:52
When the best thing in them arethe bare ass baboons then I would have to conclude.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. ........wait for it................................................ .................................................. .............................the Codex sucks big time.:rolleyes:


In what way is this post acceptable?

Azzy
23-02-2011, 05:05
Actually, if we're seperating them, just bring me my Adepta Sororitas and be done with it :p

Amen! :D


I thought about your later idea and named it:
CHIMERAPE

Chimeras and Jokaero (apes)...
>.>

You are a naughty, naughty little heretic and need to be spanked.


Naw it's pretty cool. I think you can make like a 20 model army at 1500 pts if you wanted. I might do that too haha.

Just pray that the minis aren't priced like the DE beasts. :eek: *shudders*

unheilig
23-02-2011, 05:08
Those of you who have made disparaging comments about the impending codex and/or its contents have been found guilty of heresy and of collusion with the ruinous powers.

Purge the critic! Burn the cynic!

Cognitave
23-02-2011, 05:32
To be honest, I think a lot of the "nasty" units and lists are a little more gimmicky than useful.

Sure some of this stuff is gonna be beastly for a while, but in the end it will be completely beatable. I can't wait to start putting out the "Power creep, new book is unbeatable, GW is idiots" threads because I'm sure people won't want to use that lovely tactics forum. :D

Lastie
23-02-2011, 18:09
You read it wrong. The FAQ makes it explicit that the do count.


Wait ... there's an FAQ for a Codex not released yet? :wtf::p

DJ3
23-02-2011, 18:23
Wait ... there's an FAQ for a Codex not released yet? :wtf::p

He's just stretching precedent a bit--he's talking about Emperor's Champions, who do not use an FOC slot, being allowable as the required HQ choice for Black Templars.

Using a different army's FAQ to cover the RAW in the beta version of an unreleased Codex is so beyond everything that there's really no reason to even have a conversation about it.

Bunnahabhain
23-02-2011, 18:28
He's just stretching precedent a bit--he's talking about Emperor's Champions, who do not use an FOC slot, being allowable as the required HQ choice for Black Templars.

Using a different army's FAQ to cover the RAW in the beta version of an unreleased Codex is so beyond everything that there's really no reason to even have a conversation about it.

But only as GW have prior form on issuing FAQs in random directions, and ignoring clear precedent from their own FAQ.- ie Guard and Eldar reserve modifications.

Other than that, I can't see the problem.

Xandros
23-02-2011, 20:32
He's just stretching precedent a bit--he's talking about Emperor's Champions, who do not use an FOC slot, being allowable as the required HQ choice for Black Templars.

Using a different army's FAQ to cover the RAW in the beta version of an unreleased Codex is so beyond everything that there's really no reason to even have a conversation about it.

Exactly when does precedence cease to apply? And why can more or less hypothetical scenarios not be subject of discussion?

Also, Rules-as-Written is a fallacy. Interpretations can only be judged by their quality, not the often demented logic from which they are derived.

Lastie
23-02-2011, 21:05
The only problem with assuming that what passes for law for one army will also pass for another is, as the Tyranid FAQ proved spectacularly, not always the case.

Justicar_Freezer
24-02-2011, 22:01
I've read most of and skimmed the rest of this thread. Not going to comment on some of the discussions going on but to answer the ops question.

I'm excited. Granted I don't really know anything about what will be in the new book but I can't wait. I'm happy they are expanding the Grey Knights into the full chapter that they are. I've loved the grey knights since back in second edition and a friend of mine who was into the game longer then I was told me about the knights having their own list in the little black book. Had me wishing for a long time they'd make them a full chapter again.

Now with the new book I know I'll have the bases covered since I have over 30 terminators and roughly 20 or 30 guys in power armor. I'll just have to buy some of the new shiny things that come out to round out my army.

The only question now becomes to I hold off on looking into a dark eldar army till the GK book comes out or do I work on both....oh the decisions.