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marv335
23-03-2006, 18:23
right, i've got a plan.
there are some links (tenuous although they are) between the tau and spyrers. now what i want to do is have a couple of tau warbands (a stealth team and perhaps a kroot warband) trying to recover the tech data from the suits.
now also on the cards is an ordo xenos inquisitor as an npc (run by me as gm)
i have a few ideas on how to run this but i'd welcome input from other necro vets.

tau stealth team

M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld
5 2 4 4 4 2 3 2 9

burst cannon
short range 9" +1 to hit / long range 18" +1 to hit
sustained fire 2d3
S5 -2 armour mod
no ammo roll

stealth armour
3+ save,
hard to see
-1 to hit at short range, -2 to hit at long range.
(infra red sights are ineffective and confer no bonuses against stealth armour.)

jet pack
the jet pack may be used to move freely in any direction without penalty.
the jet pack may also be used to run.
pop up attack
you may move upto 5", fire, then move a further 5" as if running with a -1 penalty to hit, however this reduces the rate of fire for the burst cannon to d3 shots.

too powerful? they'll be used in groups of 3 and as a GM controled group.

any ideas for kroot?

Sick
23-03-2006, 18:43
how many points will one guy cost?
It should be at least 200-300points or even more. pretty cheesy otherwise.

Don't know if you have realised, but no man-sized model has a base toughness that is more than 3. Why should a tau have? and armour saves are completely missing.

Sick
23-03-2006, 19:06
Alright I've read your post a second time and I say it's INCREDIBLY CHEEESY.


stealth armour
3+ save,
hard to see
-1 to hit at short range, -2 to hit at long range.
(infra red sights are ineffective and confer no bonuses against stealth armour.)
this part is the ultimate cheese. a standard ganger with bs 3 will shoot at you with a las-pistol (most common weapon) from long range.
that means
-1 for longrange of weapon
-2 for the suit
(-1 for having moved)

just calculate and see that nobody will be able to even hit you.

and:
if he hits you:
-5+ to wound roll
-3+ save

nah.......that's not cheese thats cheat!


jet pack
the jet pack may be used to move freely in any direction without penalty.
the jet pack may also be used to run.
pop up attack
you may move upto 5", fire, then move a further 5" as if running with a -1 penalty to hit, however this reduces the rate of fire for the burst cannon to d3 shots.

thats booooring......the fun in necromunda is the calculating of movement: where to move? can I shoot if i move there? is there a risk in moving there? is it worth moving there? should i choose the harder way? etc.....
you just made these factors dissapear...you can go everywhere without any further ado, can fly where you like without any penalties or kickbacks.
you can shoot at everyone and then disappear and even if there would be one lucky guy who can see one of your models, he probably wont even hit it.

what about close combat? oh yes.....you're not good in close combat.....but tell me:
who will ever reach you with a movement like yours? nobody......

I say stick to the rules or create an own gang using the guide of "how to create my own gang" but dont use any house-made or stuff like that

marv335
23-03-2006, 19:26
i should have made it a little clearer. these guys are for combating a fully tooled up (max upgrades) spyrer gang. think of them as an end of level boss in a video game.

marv335
23-03-2006, 19:31
there will be kroot in the campaign also in the lower levels. i've not worked this one out though.

TrollTyg
23-03-2006, 20:19
And how do you explain the precense of Tau in Necromunda?
As they are now their better than a spyre gang, maby tone them down a bit?

marv335
23-03-2006, 20:54
the tau supplied the tech for the spyrer battlesuits. the suits record data on human fighting abilities. the tau want the data back so have sent a team to infiltrate the hive to reclaim it.
please bear in mind that this is the first draft rules.
i'm looking for;

1. constructive thought.

2. ideas for improvement

not

"OMFG TEHY R TEH CHEEZ11!!!!ONEONE!"

remember they should be hard they are to be the culmination of a campaign.

a few other things i'm going to include

1. an inquisitor (ordo xenos)
2. a kroot hunting party
3. random tau weapons for gangs to 'win' as events during the campain.

tau weapons for hidden stashes.

pulse rifle
S5 -2 armour save
short range 15" - to hit / long range 30" +2 to hit

pulse carbine
S5 -2 armour save
short range 9" +1 to hit / long range 18" +1 to hit

both weapons have the following drawbacks.
ailen tech
ammo roll 6+ tech skills may not be used to influence this roll.
(if the gun runs out of ammo during a game, you must roll 5+ in the post game sequence or you may not use it in the next game)

Tomothy
24-03-2006, 02:08
Looks good for arbitrator controlled tool. Depending on how tough the gangs are at the end of course. Don't really know why they have 4 str 2 attacks, and only 3 init though, but then i don't have the tau codex.

simonr1978
24-03-2006, 08:02
It looks potentially interesting.

Personally I would ditch the idea of stashes of Tau weaponary and Tau kit to win during the campaign. For a start if the Tau team have been sent in to retrieve these Spyrer suits they're unlikely to find caches of their own weapons lying around the place.

Tau weapons for a gang would be virtually useless outside the short-term anyway, without spares, ammunition/methods of recharging or the knowledge to service and maintain them they'll end up as little more than a nicely decorated club in virtually no time. I think your drawbacks are a fairly good way of representing this, I'd add the line that once the campaign is over the weapons break down and become useless before the next game/campaign anyway.

Lose the Kroot. I can't see any way of explaining away their presence unless they're somehow supposed to be attached to the Tau team and that seems extremely unlikely.

If you need an extra force for the campaign to work, perhaps some Arbites, a second inquisitor with some guardsmen or a witch-hunter might be better.

I'll not comment on the stats, I'm assuming that they're an arbitrator controlled force that'll disappear once the campaign is over anyway so there's no real benefit in overpowering them and without knowing exactly how powerful the opponents are, how numerous the opponents are and how numerous the team are it's difficult to say how well they're going to work.

I would lose the jet pack idea though, I think this is the one thing that is likely to make them overpowered, not to mention that in a underhive of stancions, walkways and cramped spaces using a jet pack would be a really good way of getting yourself a concussion really quickly.

TrollTyg
25-03-2006, 21:01
Lose the Kroot. I can't see any way of explaining away their presence unless they're somehow supposed to be attached to the Tau team and that seems extremely unlikely.



He could have one as a pet for an Inquisitor, it has happened before (Kal Jerico Comic and Xenology).

simonr1978
26-03-2006, 05:27
One maybe, but he mentions a Kroot hunting party.

Goq Gar
26-03-2006, 05:54
Idea: massive necromunda war, as in many gangs unite to make armies XP I know necro is a more forcused on small combat game, but wouldnt hundreds of necro gang mmbers blowing each other apart kick ass!?>

simonr1978
26-03-2006, 15:54
If you want to do that, that's what 40K is for...

That kind of game would be unmanagable. Not to mention that no single gang is likely to get that powerful, so the only real option is have ten or twenty separate gangs which is just too much to work.

Xavier
26-03-2006, 16:20
Graham you need shot. In the nicest possible way of course.

While the idea of tau going to reclaim what could possibly be early versions of their suits, those rules are very broken. If you are using 40k rules as a guide then they should be toughness 3 not 4.

marv335
26-03-2006, 19:20
right, here are the v2 rules.
any more constructive suggestions wecome

tau stealth team

M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld
5 2 4 4 3 2 3 2 9

burst cannon
short range 9" +1 to hit / long range 18" +1 to hit
sustained fire 2d3
S5 -2 armour mod
no ammo roll

stealth armour
3+ save,
hard to see
-1 to hit at short range, -2 to hit at long range.
(infra red sights are ineffective and confer no bonuses against stealth armour.)

jet pack
the jet pack may be used to move up levels at 1/2 movement. the wearer may also drop levels without penalty (i.e. does not suffer falling damage) and jump 2d6" across gaps.
the jet pack may also be used to run.

pop up attack
you may move upto 5", fire, then move a further 5" as if running with a -1 penalty to hit, however this reduces the rate of fire for the burst cannon to d3 shots.

the price is too high
the stealth team automatically fail any bottle test they are required to make

marv335
26-03-2006, 19:46
the general scenario is this.
the ethereals provided forbidden technology to the great houses of necromunda in the guise of the fighting suits used by spyrer gangs.
this was done to analyse the fighting abilities of human warriors. now the ethereals want the data engrams from the suits so that the earth caste can design new weapons and the fire caste can develop combat strategies for the greater good.
however there is a problem.
necromunda is too far for the limited jump capacity of the tau ships.
the ruling council of the ethereals have contracted one of the many rogue traders plying the space lanes of the empire (in this case a gun-runner) to transport the retreival group. a stealth team have been smuggled into the hive with a small hunting party of kroot (the kroot are scouts). the rogue trader has been paid with a consignment of tau weapons. such is the importance of the mission.
however the ordos xenos have had word that the aliens are trying to make inroads to the hive. an inquisitor has been sent to try to root out the heresy of alien tech.
the spyrers must be brought to book for dabbling in the forbidden. the xenos must be purged.

simonr1978
26-03-2006, 20:27
Sounds interesting. I know they're only going to be used in small numbers but I would still rather see the "Pop Up Attack" idea dropped.

I would also rework the background behind this slightly. It seems reasonably hinted that there is Tau tech behind Spyrer kit, so why not keep this air of mystery?

If I were running this, I'd have the background something like:

From a Necromundan Imperial Guardsman taken as a Prisoner of War news of the Spyrers came to the attention of the Council. Further interrogation revealed striking similarities between the Spyrer suits and aspects of Tau technology that warranted further investigation.

The council were naturally concerned. Had captured Tau tech been incorporated into some human equipment? Worse, had rogue or renegade Tau sold or bargained technology with some of the humans?

A specially selected team were assembled for a most dangerous mission, to go deep into Imperial space, infiltrate Necromunda and retrieve examples of the Spyrer suits for testing and evaluation.

At this point I would make the only serious alteration to the campaign, I would still ditch the Kroot. As scouts on a human hive they would be too obvious, the Tau team can still come to the attention of the Ordo Xenos via a loose tongue or careless talk, but I think the inclusion of the Kroot scouts is the weak link in your campaign narrative. If you want to include the scouting contingent, why not create a "gang" of human ex-Guardsmen who have been turned by their Tau captors?

You could include the PoW mentioned above as the Gang leader to boost the narrative. Equip them with a mix of Tau, Kroot or Imperial weaponary as appropriate and you'll get a sense of variety.

This way, you keep the mystery behind the Spyrer suits, despite the hints, are they/aren't they Tau influenced/supplied? Who knows? Whatever the outcome, there'll still be no definitive answers.

From what I've read, if there was definite links between the Spyrer suits and the Tau that came to the attention of the Ordo-Xenos, there would be rather a lot of important Necromundans from the spires that would be required to answer a lot of questions at the hands of the Inquisitors and an assortment of painful objects. Really, you don't want your campaign to have such a huge impact on the world as that, keep it vague and uncertain and you'll keep a balance between your campaign and the existing official fluff.

Xavier
26-03-2006, 21:36
Could change the way their stealth ability works, so its more like the 40k spotting distance rather than have the -1/-2 to hit

Goq Gar
27-03-2006, 06:08
If you want to do that, that's what 40K is for...

That kind of game would be unmanagable. Not to mention that no single gang is likely to get that powerful, so the only real option is have ten or twenty separate gangs which is just too much to work.
Hey you asked for ideas. you didnt specify that they had to be realistic :P

Some "realistic" ideas: They could strap several pistols together to increase their Effectiveness?

simonr1978
27-03-2006, 11:13
Not me mate, Marv335 was after feedback for his campaign idea, all things considered I don't think a hundred ganger fight-off wouldn't really fit in too well with what he has in mind! ;)

marv335
27-03-2006, 16:12
Could change the way their stealth ability works, so its more like the 40k spotting distance rather than have the -1/-2 to hit

i was trying to reflect the stealth abilities using existing necromunda rules. i would think that stealth suits would be very hard to see in the underhive.
i might drop the armour save to 4+ though.

Goq Gar
27-03-2006, 16:24
Well, technically, he asked for "ideas" therefore anything suggested, even dancing bananas, count. :P

Hmmm... how about a kill team type scenario? Send in a few gangers to kill a few enemies in their sleep?

bertcom1
27-03-2006, 16:44
Are these Tau Stealth troopers the XV15 ones, who are just Tau wearing a stealthy suit?

Or are they the new ones, which are some kind of weirdo battlesuit thing?

I think the older ones would be better, using the reasoning of they need less field support. Plus I think they look better.


That thing you have where they can move 5", shoot, move 5" is very powerful. This would make them almost invulnerable to being assaulted, as they could withdraw very quickly. Very few Necromunda models can move quickly enough to engage something moving like that. Especially as it can shoot. You don't need to wound, just to hit, and the enemy is pinned.

The suits are BS4, with +1 to hit for the gun at both long and short? That makes them effectively BS5. Again, even with the penalty for moving and shooting, they are likely to pin anything trying to catch them.

Negative modifiers to being shot at, and the ability to outrun almost anything makes them very very hard to engage.


It should still be interesting to have them. But be very careful. We had a battle where 1 Chaos Marine + 4 lackeys fought against a total of 40 Necromunda gangers (3 gangs). The Chaos marine made 1 gang bottle out, and put 10 models down and out from the other 2 gangs. And these gangers were quite hard veterans, not fresh ones. So even small numbers of hard troops can be very hard to take on.

Have fun though.

marv335
27-03-2006, 16:50
"i have a few ideas on how to run this but i'd welcome input from other necro vets."
that's what i really said.
that's not to say your input isn't welcome, it's just not in the area i'm looking for.

anyway i've decided to drop the pop up attacks

Jo Bennett
27-03-2006, 18:13
i was trying to reflect the stealth abilities using existing necromunda rules. i would think that stealth suits would be very hard to see in the underhive.
i might drop the armour save to 4+ though.

You might want to have a look at some of the darkness rules for treacherous conditions, use one of the poor light rulesets (not the total darkness one, that's a bit too extreme).

EDIT: just looked at the rules again myself, I think automatically counting as being in long shadows would be a nice, fluffy but not too powerful option (it allows running and hiding in the same turn)

bertcom1
27-03-2006, 18:22
Tau stealth team

Tau stealth with XV15 suits

M 4
Ws 2
Bs 4
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 3
A 1
Ld 9


burst cannon
(Firing on move)
Str 5. Short range 4" (+1 to hit) Max range 16" -2 Sv modifier. Sustain 1d3.
(Firing from stationary position)
Str 5. Short range 8" (+1 to hit) Max range 20" -2 Sv modifier. Sustain 2d3.

Can be used in close combat without the usual -1 for carrying a heavy weapon, but opponent wins drawn combats.

stealth armour
4+ save,
hard to see
-1 to hit vs shooting. 6+ save vs shooting.

Can run and hide in same turn. Can Infiltrate. Can Sneak Up.

Med-packs. If a model is down, then another Tau model can try to revive them. d6 roll. 1-4 Flesh wound. 5 Down. 6 Out of action.

Team leader +1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1A.


I think these might be a bit easier to use.

kris.sherriff
07-04-2006, 17:09
EDIT: just looked at the rules again myself, I think automatically counting as being in long shadows would be a nice, fluffy but not too powerful option (it allows running and hiding in the same turn)

Sounds like a good idea to me mate.
I would also tone down the range of the burst cannon to give the feel of them getting in close without being seen then hitting hard as the 18" range make them able to snipe from a distance IMO

marv335
07-04-2006, 17:10
wow, you're still alive kris!
how many days left to go?

kris.sherriff
08-04-2006, 00:34
24 days to go then I am home:D

I was also thinking that you could keep the range of the cannons the same but changing the modifiers so that it is short range +2 long range -1. I think they would work alot better if you had them feeling like preditors getting in real close for the kill

russian
09-04-2006, 20:23
you have to keep the general theme going though, tau are fragile, yes they should be hard hitting and in that sence nasty, but make it so they can be caught, and that you have to think carefully of where they are placed, ie make them be minsed in combat, also stealth suits i recon should be 5+ to represent the fact there stealthythe advantage isnt the armour its the ability to no be seen, as long shaddows would effectivly increase your armour anyway as your less lily to be hit.

the thing about that chaos marine, tecnhically the only way a marine would be killed in necro would be if they ran out of energy, because in background stuff a las pistol cannot penetrate power armer

nightgant98c
18-10-2006, 00:50
I would leave the basic statline as it is in the codex, give them a 6" move that ignores terrain. That would reflect the jetpacks without being way too powerful. I would make the burst cannon have a short range of 9"(+1) and long range 18", s5 -1 sv, 2 sustained fire dice. I like the -1 to hit at short, and -2 at long, as it is just like the stealth skill evade. I would also suggest doing some trials to see how many would be a challenge without killing everyone. I would think maybe three against a normal gang.

Autobot HQ
18-10-2006, 07:52
Give them a 4+ save and bio-boosters, it links them more to the Spyer suits without it being stated.

Darkseer
18-10-2006, 09:03
Just 1 stealth suit is enough to totally shred a gang when used tactically. A group of them is too difficult.

Cerberus
18-10-2006, 23:50
from a background point of view: Its a known fact that the noble houses on necromunda get their hunter rigs from the Tau, its just very difficult to get them to hand it over cause of their authority. In the old/first Tau codex, a bit of background says, quote: "It is imperative that these gangs be made to hand over their hunting rigs lest the tau garner even more information concerning the imperium." so background wise your story is pretty solid, although I doubt the tau would have to send a team to hunt down the spyrers. It's not like the noble houses stole the suits. The tau aren't a fan of the whole violence thing after all. Im sure if they wanted to get the suits data, they could just send an earth caste envoy over to perform some 'upgrades'. I doubt the spyrers would say no!

rules wise tho, stealth suits are pretty harsh, not to mention how difficult it would be to smuggle even one, along with a load of blue skinned aliens, into necromunda, what with the arbites tight watch on the borders of the wall. what you could do however is have a single earth caste/fire warrior on necromunda to demonstrate a new variant of suit, and he could be in the underhive with a couple of spyrer 'spectators' as escorts, and just make him really hard, like that chaos marine mentioned before. Predator style.

Cerberus
19-10-2006, 00:03
i've custom made all my spyrers to look more tau caus the current spyrer models were made when tau didnt exist. also there's no consistency between the models. I think making your own character models and conversions are one of the best parts of necromunda, and i always do it when i host big games.