PDA

View Full Version : The Wussification of Chaos



Pages : [1] 2

HK-47
20-02-2011, 22:01
This may be me just being a fan boy, but am I the only one to have noticed that Chaos as sort have lost their teeth. I have the Realms of Chaos books, and the Liber Chaotica, and Chaos is described as this ancient Lovecraftian horror, that exists beyond time and space and reason. That you can't even comprehend without going crazy. That even though humanity could beat their mortal armies you could never beat Chaos because it was the darkness that exists in the human soul. It was us through this dark and twisted mirror.

Now with the New Grey Knights codex, though this goes back longer than that, I feel like Chaos has become nothing more than your rum of the mill mustache trilling villains that do evil things because it's cool; that they are more of a nuisance to humanity rather than an actually threat. I mean you have all these idiotic things going around like; there are no legions of 10,000 year old warriors anymore just disgruntled Ultramarines; everyone keeps talking about how much of a failure Abaddon is, even though he isn't. The Gods are now just a bunch of one dimensional monsters that can't even kill one stupid Space Marine.

I don't know this may just be have a case of nerd rage, but I feel that in Game-Workshop attempts to make Warhammer and Warhammer 40k respond to a larger audience they have taken away some of the things that made it unique, and mature, by this I more intelligent. Don't get me wrong I know that it's always been tongue in cheek, but it's gone from being humorous in a dark way and satirizing, to just being over the top in the same way cartoons meant for twelve year old boys are.

Muad'Dib
20-02-2011, 23:16
Having read the Grey Knights codex today, I have to say I was quite disgusted how every second unit/character description was stating ad infinitum how Grey Knights utterly dominate Daemons.
-Lord Draigo walking through Realm of Chaos with no problems, burning down Nurgle's jungle domain on the way and pimp slapping a Lord of Change (so hard that the Inevitable city collapsed) for good measure.
-another character carving his Grand Master's name into Mortarion's heart
-Inquisitor Coteaz ruminating how he could extend his lifespan - 'the boon he seeks could easily be granted by a Daemon...'

The problem with recent (tho it started good several years ago TBH) turn in GW's background that in order to, I'd say, appeal to wider audience, they lost any sense of sensibility in detailing an army's or characters exploits. The result is that any foe of whoever GW seeks to present as badass will suffer from 'villain decay'. We had it before wth Eldar Avatars, and now, with the Grey Knight codex, it's Daemons'/Chaos' turn.

ashendant
20-02-2011, 23:47
the grey knight codex was already released?

The truth this is kinda a ploy in stories, maybe there's a troope about it, but the more you know about something the less it stays scary, example from zero punctuation about amnesia the dark descent

"... understands that a monsters stays scary, less you see of it, and if you actually manage to get a good shot a them, you're face will be ripped off, and re-purposed as a tea set faster than you can say C'thulhu f'tagn"

The more you see of it, the less scary it stays, fear of the unknown i guess

Hellebore
20-02-2011, 23:51
GW no longer cares for having any pretence of consistency. They've gone from being crazy strict on their IP to 'who gives a ****? MONEY!'.

I saw this with the 5th ed marine codex which was the first codex this edition. It's only gone downhill since then.

As I said years ago to those that just called me a hater, eventually you too will find the straw that breaks your back. The Grey Knight codex may just be that straw for a lot of players. It's so patently absurd Dragonball Z style OTT stupidity that it destroys any kind of versimilitude or suspension of disbelief.

But then GW have decided it's easier to write absolute crap than to be consistent, because their tween market won't be in the hobby long enough to give a rats ass about it anyway. So long as they bought the Draigo model for $40 cuz it said he's so hard Chuck Norris is scared of him, then they don't care one jot.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
21-02-2011, 00:31
Chaos is, as a background concept, still incredibly interesting and cool. It's poor utilization of that in published writing that makes the bad lens you're looking through.

Think of the Warhammer universe in general. Great conceptually, I think most of us can agree. Bad works and/or bad authors don't mean the universe itself takes a step back.

ashendant
21-02-2011, 00:42
Could any of you post what you read of gk codex please

I'm very curious

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 00:44
There was a thread on here discussing it which disappeared because it was referring to an unreleased codex that had been leaked.

Suffice to say, if the codex isn't fake (which is hard to countenance given it's the entire bestiary and army list written in full) then it has some of the most poorly written and deliberately OTT crap I've ever seen in 40k.

See the thread in General about the grey knights to see some snippets (no they aren't exaggerated nor taken out of context regardless of how much others attempt to say it is).

Hellebore

Challenge Accepted
21-02-2011, 00:47
Could any of you post what you read of gk codex please

I'm very curious

If we do, this thread will be closed.

On topic, while Draigo is a fluff abomination - I always view codex stories as nothing more than myth / propaganda. I don't think any of it should be taken too seriously, and as such, I won't allow a few bad characters to spoil the entire fantasy-scape for me.

Chaos has had its teeth removed recently, yeah - but hopefully that's fixed come the next Chaos codex. Then we'll have Abaddon choke the hive-mind to death, and devour the C'tan to fuel his new lazer-eyes chaos gift.

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 00:53
The problem I find with these kinds of precedents is what's called adaptive distillation or alternatively adaptive decay.

Basically, once something's been introduced into the setting, even if it's entirely allegorical, over enough time with enough different writers someone eventually misunderstands/doesn't care/deliberately makes it true.

This is why it's so dangerous to see OTT incidents in the background. People think 'slippery slope' but that happens a lot in corporatised settings with multiple writers. Things get distilled into a single image that was originally just one of many. This happens in all sorts of settings, from the Klingons in star trek (now are all a planet of hats honourable warrior race guy) to children's stories.

Hence why, whenever GW releases a codex with a silly story, I don't look at it as simply a one off, but the beginning of a set of events that will culminate a few years from now in something worse.

So far, I haven't been wrong (I disliked the Avatar vs Calgar thing as a dangerous precedent that would only escalate and lo and behold it has).

EDIT: In fact at the time when I was vociferously decrying the avatar incident and others were defending it, I specifically cited it as a dangerous precedent that will lead to a runaway oneupmanship. And it has.

Hellebore

tezdal
21-02-2011, 01:03
Don't worry, once we get a new Chaos 'dex and Abbadon strangles two Avatars with his bare hands, we will have the overpoweredness

Stonerhino
21-02-2011, 01:15
If Draigo's story was in the material realm then maybe. But the fact that it's in the Relm of Chaos means it's nothing.

For all we know, he is a plaything of M'Kar. His supposed victories just things that M'Kar wants him to see. He burns down Nurgle's forest and it grows back, destroys Tzeentch's city and it rebuilds itself. Kind of shows that if he was so powerfull as to be able to conqure the Relm of Chaos. It does not matter. Because as soon as he leaves it's back to how it was before. So no matter how hard he fights it does not matter because he will never truely make any difference. It's entirely possible in the next Chaos codex to have Draigo there as a joke amoung the the Chaos Gods. And not have it violate the existing fluff.

Nurgle: Hey Isha. Remember when Draigo burned my forest down??
Isha: Yes.
Nurgle: I wish he would come back sometime. It's funny that he things he is actually doing something productive.
Isha: If you let me out of this cage I will go and get him for you.
Nurgle: Hahaha. That why I keep you around. I need a good laugh every now and then.
Isha: :(

PondaNagura
21-02-2011, 02:04
well, yeah chaos has to be watered down, if the bad guys are too evil how else could you sell genocide to kids?

Son of Sanguinius
21-02-2011, 02:10
Kids don't know what genocide is. If GW is really targeting youths with this, as hellebore calls it, oneupsmanship, then they already know that parents aren't paying enough attention anyway.

Drasanil
21-02-2011, 02:19
Kids don't know what genocide is. If GW is really targeting youths with this, as hellebore calls it, oneupsmanship, then they already know that parents aren't paying enough attention anyway.

I thought parents stopped paying attention sometime in the 80s and have just been sueing who ever/what ever they think ruined their poorly raised brats since.

Seriously there's some lady sueing Nutella right now in California because it's not as healthy as the commercial makes it out to be and she gave her kid "too much" of it:shifty:

I think GW is just trying to cover their arses due to likely pending law suits, once "concerned" parents find out what a Space Marine really is supposed to do, let alone what Slaanesh is.

Iverald
21-02-2011, 02:25
Sorry Hellebore, but I think that you are slightly "wrong" on this. Calgar vs. Avatar was possible to be rationalised if not plausible. The stuff I gleaned is not. And it is not a matter of simple "it all went downhill". No. "It" imploded on itself and now is a bleeping black hole. The Emprah cries himself to sleep cuz he wanna be a Grey Knight. And I'm a big GK fanboy. It looks like Mat Ward paired together with C. S. Goto for this project. It is an abomination unto English language and literature (in the vaguest sense of the latter).

On topic: IMO Chaos' role is severely decreased just because there are too many doomsday scenarios played at the same time. The rumoured "second wave" of Tyranids is encroaching, the Dragon is supposedly stirring on Mars with more Tomb Worlds awakening, Ghazghkull haven't said his last word yet and the Golden Throne is slowly failing.

Who cares about a bunch of misfits who fled to the Eye 10,000 years ago? The 13th Crusade is stalled and the gods care more about the Great Game than the Materium. Even the renegades are no more than nuisance like the Eldar or the Tau. Daemons seem to have stopped being a problem at all, save their immortality.

I've never read older 40k-related books but I loved 1st ed. WFRP and then Chaos was the be-all and end-all. Your struggle against it was not futile because the multitude of daemons you killed simply were restored and some kind of balance was maintained, but it was a struggle you were slowly losing. The more pure you were, the longer was your fall and the greater delight of the gods.

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 02:32
It wasn't just calgar. Lysander was dead in the previous codex. But then he was not only retconned back to life, he also escaped the most heavily fortified daemonworld in the galaxy with nothing but his banana hamock and a stern glare and then waltzes back into the Fists chapter, gets an all clear of chaos taint from the school nurse and then takes command of the 1st company from whatever poor sap dared to presume to command it in the 1000 years he'd be absent.

Calgar and the avatar is one of the most noted instances, but Lysander's personal retconn is in many ways worse. The fact that the background of the book is more about how Calgar saved the day than how the 'ultramarines' or space marines in general function (vs orks all day and night, vs 300 night lords, whole libraries devoted to his awesomeness etc) and then the ott instances of marine forces doing silly things (taking out a craftworld, necron world engine, one dreadnought vs an entire army carrying anti dreadnought weapons then nuking itself with supa explosion).

That book was bad and it's only gotten worse.

Hellebore

Iverald
21-02-2011, 02:48
I concede, Lysander's stuff is atrocious but probably Banana Marines have it easier by not being the poster boys. Other cases are also creepy, though the destruction of World Engine would be barely passable with the total sacrifice of said chapter.

I pored over every bit of rumour since early 2009 and all I got is a respawning Justicar.

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 02:51
(no they aren't exaggerated nor taken out of context regardless of how much others attempt to say it is).

Hellebore

Well, if by out of context you mean ignoring the following paragraphs, than yes, it is being taken out of context.


If Draigo's story was in the material realm then maybe. But the fact that it's in the Relm of Chaos means it's nothing.

For all we know, he is a plaything of M'Kar. His supposed victories just things that M'Kar wants him to see. He burns down Nurgle's forest and it grows back, destroys Tzeentch's city and it rebuilds itself. Kind of shows that if he was so powerfull as to be able to conqure the Relm of Chaos. It does not matter. Because as soon as he leaves it's back to how it was before. So no matter how hard he fights it does not matter because he will never truely make any difference.

Exactly this. phrased a little differently, but after the uber-l337 stuff that is bandied about about Draigo, it says that the forest regrew, the palace reformed, and the daemons he kills don't die, they just reform later. What he accomplishes doesn't matter, but he keeps trying anyways.



As for the Coteaz complaint, I don't get that one. The point is that his search for longer life could be easily granted if he was willing to ask for Chaos to help, but he won't.

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 03:06
So I killed him but he got better excuses the ability for me to kill him in the first place?

Ok, a grot defeats the emperor, humiliates him, makes him flee in terror then kills him. It's ok though, cuz he comes back to life again. That excuse makes anything in 40k meaningless, bloodthirsters aren't horrifying opponents who can best mortal armies, no they're just dudes that grow back when some dick with a sword wins them.

Crap is crap. All this rationalising does is make it that much more evident how bad the text is that people need to try and find ways to explain the obviously stupid.

Hellebore

AlexHolker
21-02-2011, 03:21
As for the Coteaz complaint, I don't get that one. The point is that his search for longer life could be easily granted if he was willing to ask for Chaos to help, but he won't.
It actually claims that "part of him longs to embrace this small evil... It is a temptation that grows stronger with every passing day..." It also paints his use of henchmen in an evil light, as if he's planning on overthrowing the planetary government or seceding from the Imperium.

In short, it portrays Coteaz as the opposite to the man he was in the previous codex, and all because Ward is a talentless hack.

The_NightBringer
21-02-2011, 03:23
Forgive me for diverting slightly off topic; but who has written the Grey knights codex?

Nightbringer

Iracundus
21-02-2011, 03:26
Cadia is more dangerous than the Eye of Terror, it is more difficult to siege than a daemon world. That's the state that 40k is in right now. The Imperium is invincible, its defenders are the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Eldar flee as their craftworlds are smashed, tyranids are just a pest, orks scatter before the immeasurable bulk of humanity (while ghazkull has a schoolgirl crush on yarrick) and daemons have to check under their bed for grey knights.

Which is why so many Imperial players gnashed their teeth and were/are in denial over the Eye of Terror campaign results, when the results did not match their beliefs of invincibility. Frankly I think it a bad thing when a player falls for their side's own invincibility propaganda as it just promotes poor sportsmanship. People have trouble admitting they could possibly lose fair and square, and so reach for reasons such as accusing the other side of cheating or having an imbalanced Codex or army.

SgtTaters
21-02-2011, 03:30
**ah sorry, I accidentally deleted the post when editing it... reposting so Irancundus is actually quoting from the fuuuture


well, yeah chaos has to be watered down, if the bad guys are too evil how else could you sell genocide to kids?
Starcraft does it all the time, you even get to gun down civilians suspected of taint and it reaches a massive, massive audience of millions of kids. Their main writer is Andy Chambers, maybe he took the grimderp with him to Blizzard.


The crux of it is, on the tabletop Chaos cannot match their Loyalist counterparts. That's why. Loyalist marines pound their chaos brethren so very hard in every way. Champions of nurgle get splattered by s10 while a space wolf hero can shrug it off, berserkers are only half as angry as death company, when loyalist dreads grow old they gain wisdom, chaos ones just go traitorously senile. This rules reality only compounds the fluff disparity

a space marine hero crushes daemons, stomps the hell out of his enemy, he reverses the fortunes of war with only his heroic effort.

Abaddon is empowered by all four ruinous powers and loses constantly. A single planet (yeah it's a fortress world and all but it's one planet) always, always throws him back.

You have Calgar saving whole sectors, you have a Grey Knight stomping through the realm of chaos kicking down houses and burning down forests, and you have Abaddon twiddling his mustache as he shakes his fist at a bunch of guardsmen.

Cadia is more dangerous than the Eye of Terror, it is more difficult to siege than a daemon world. That's the state that 40k is in right now. The Imperium is invincible, its defenders are the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Eldar flee as their craftworlds are smashed, tyranids are just a pest, orks scatter before the immeasurable bulk of humanity (while ghazkull has a schoolgirl crush on yarrick) and daemons have to check under their bed for grey knights.

HK-47
21-02-2011, 03:40
I should say that even though I mention the Grey Knights codex, it's not just this new fluff that brought this reaction on. When I first got into 40k I read the Liber Chaotica, and the Index Astartes. Since that I have felt that the Fluff in the codex and rule books have been decaying in quality. This isn't just the Matt Ward stuff, the new Chaos codices where written by Gav Thorpe and they have had as much to do with the degrading of the fluff for Chaos as any other book. I feel like the fluff is swallower then what it was, I understand that the Fluff is in a consent state of flux even thought the setting is static, and their isn't a true hard canon, which is why it's called fluff instead of Lore, but I feel that many of the new writers don't understand, or view, 40k in the same way that the creators did.


Forgive me for diverting slightly off topic; but who has written the Grey knights codex?

Nightbringer

Matt Ward is writing the codex he is also the same guy who wrote codex Space Marines and codex Blood Angels.


**ah sorry, I accidentally deleted the post when editing it... reposting so Irancundus is actually quoting from the fuuuture


Starcraft does it all the time, you even get to gun down civilians suspected of taint and it reaches a massive, massive audience of millions of kids. Their main writer is Andy Chambers, maybe he took the grimderp with him to Blizzard.


The crux of it is, on the tabletop Chaos cannot match their Loyalist counterparts. That's why. Loyalist marines pound their chaos brethren so very hard in every way. Champions of nurgle get splattered by s10 while a space wolf hero can shrug it off, berserkers are only half as angry as death company, when loyalist dreads grow old they gain wisdom, chaos ones just go traitorously senile. This rules reality only compounds the fluff disparity

a space marine hero crushes daemons, stomps the hell out of his enemy, he reverses the fortunes of war with only his heroic effort.

Abaddon is empowered by all four ruinous powers and loses constantly. A single planet (yeah it's a fortress world and all but it's one planet) always, always throws him back.

You have Calgar saving whole sectors, you have a Grey Knight stomping through the realm of chaos kicking down houses and burning down forests, and you have Abaddon twiddling his mustache as he shakes his fist at a bunch of guardsmen.

Cadia is more dangerous than the Eye of Terror, it is more difficult to siege than a daemon world. That's the state that 40k is in right now. The Imperium is invincible, its defenders are the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Eldar flee as their craftworlds are smashed, tyranids are just a pest, orks scatter before the immeasurable bulk of humanity (while ghazkull has a schoolgirl crush on yarrick) and daemons have to check under their bed for grey knights.

Yes the Codex imbalances also help with the degradation of a factions fluff. I remember one thread in the Warhammer 40k General forum that was giving advice to new Space Marine Players, and he said the new players in his group are actually shocked that their Marines aren't as invincible as they are in the Fluff. The codices hype up their factions too much and people who only read their factions fluff get a much more skewed view of the setting that can affect game play.

insectum7
21-02-2011, 03:59
The idea that this is a new phenomena is ridiculous. I remember over 15 years ago my friend complaining that it was crazy that Nagash brought together all of chaos/undead, unified the gods and assaulted the Empire of Warhammer Fantasy, yet didn't get past a single city.

It's also no different than the 2nd Edition Tyranid campaign, where everybody fought against the "unstoppable threat" of Hive Fleet Behemoth and it came down to the battle for Macragge.

I also see Matt Ward as being no different than early Gav Thorpe's nonsense 3rd ed. Blood Angels Codex, or that ridiculous Harlequin codex published in Citadel Journal.

You guys remember the Armageddon Codex? With the introduction of Black Templars that "Broke forward" into new assaults? Or the cheap and nigh-unkillable Salamander Terminator Squads?

The "legitimacy" or "reasonability" of 40K, both rules and fluff, comes and goes in cycles, and changes armies from time to time. But it's not new, not by a long shot.

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 05:08
So I killed him but he got better excuses the ability for me to kill him in the first place?


No, the reason Draigo was able to kill the various daemons in the first place is that he is the supreme grand master of an order specifically dedicated to defeating and killing daemons.

The fact that Grey Knights in general have so many wards and forms of protection that they are physically painful for creatures of the warp to be near likely helps too. Being supreme Grand Master, Draigo is basically a walking Gellar field.

Iverald
21-02-2011, 05:40
No, the reason Draigo was able to kill the various daemons in the first place is that he is the supreme grand master of an order specifically dedicated to defeating and killing daemons.

The fact that Grey Knights in general have so many wards and forms of protection that they are physically painful for creatures of the warp to be near likely helps too. Being supreme Grand Master, Draigo is basically a walking Gellar field.

I think I nailed what bugs me in those descriptions: I don't like the overt lack of effort, sacrifice and Pyrrhean victories. First War of Armageddon was paid for dearly. IIRC, Grimnar wondered if the loss of 70+ GKT's can ever be replaced. The new stuff is written too matter-of-factly for my taste.

Conversely, if we presume it is all hyperbole, then still something is worng on the level of style.

Xandros
21-02-2011, 06:50
The strength of Chaos is the weakness and latent corruption of the human spirit, something the Grey Knights willfully and purposely excise from themselves so that they can combat daemons. Chaos only possesses power over the corrupt, which is largely everyone. The Imperium commits the exact same sins as Chaos does.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 07:33
The crux of it is, on the tabletop Chaos cannot match their Loyalist counterparts. That's why. Loyalist marines pound their chaos brethren so very hard in every way. Champions of nurgle get splattered by s10 while a space wolf hero can shrug it off, berserkers are only half as angry as death company, when loyalist dreads grow old they gain wisdom, chaos ones just go traitorously senile. This rules reality only compounds the fluff disparity

a space marine hero crushes daemons, stomps the hell out of his enemy, he reverses the fortunes of war with only his heroic effort.

Abaddon is empowered by all four ruinous powers and loses constantly. A single planet (yeah it's a fortress world and all but it's one planet) always, always throws him back.

You have Calgar saving whole sectors, you have a Grey Knight stomping through the realm of chaos kicking down houses and burning down forests, and you have Abaddon twiddling his mustache as he shakes his fist at a bunch of guardsmen.

Abaddon doesn't lose, he gets what he was after and leaves...chaos in his wake. In the previous 12 Black Crusades, he wasn't out to conquer or overthrow Terra, he was after something. Something he wanted to find and take back to the Eye with him. He also succeeded in all of this.

As for the Dreads, Chaos's being insane is explained and they have been that way since at least 2nd Edition. Chaos Dreads are not put into statis like Loyalist Dreads. They are simply chained up in a hold and left there. Also, Chaos Marines live for sensation, which a Dread is denied. He can no longer feel, he is always awake (though, not always lucid, I would imagine) and it has taken its toll on his sanity.

And, I wouldn't think a Ven Dread is necessarily a normal Dread, but old, so much as an older, more respected member of the Chapter interred.

Hellebore
21-02-2011, 07:53
No, the reason Draigo was able to kill the various daemons in the first place is that he is the supreme grand master of an order specifically dedicated to defeating and killing daemons.

The fact that Grey Knights in general have so many wards and forms of protection that they are physically painful for creatures of the warp to be near likely helps too. Being supreme Grand Master, Draigo is basically a walking Gellar field.

Tell that to 100 grey knight terminators that fought and died against 12 bloodthirsters and angron.

Don't they look stupid now? Again, entirely because of runaway oneupmanship. 15 years ago it was hardcore awesome that only 100 grey knights had a chance at taking out that many greater daemons whilst dying in the process.

Now, well if only Draigo had shown up there he'd show those fools pretending to be grey knights how it's really done...:eyebrows:

Hellebore

Nazguire
21-02-2011, 08:35
I haven't read the book yet, but from the gist I'm getting is that the Codex is pretty much Codex: Blood Angels Mk II?

Oh great.

I won't judge till I pick it up though. In the month or so before it's released on Australian shores.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
21-02-2011, 09:27
No, the reason Draigo was able to kill the various daemons in the first place is that he is the supreme grand master of an order specifically dedicated to defeating and killing daemons.

The fact that Grey Knights in general have so many wards and forms of protection that they are physically painful for creatures of the warp to be near likely helps too. Being supreme Grand Master, Draigo is basically a walking Gellar field.

I thought the point wasn't that just that it shouldn't be possible- (I mean he's in the realm of the Chaos Gods, and I'd argue that means he's subject to their rules and could sqush him like a bug, but I guess that's debatable, depending on how awesome you think Draigo is.)

-but also it detracts from the uniqueness of the 40K mythos, which was originally designed to be oppressive and invoke themes of mankind's destruction. If there's the possibility of a grey knight surviving the realm of Chaos, where even the Chaos Gods can't jsut reach out and kill him, then where's the emotive investment that comes from heroic sacrifice?

There has to be a struggle with genuine loss to make a reader care about a story. If Draigo can destroy the realms of gods, you know, the beings that are waging war on a universe-wide scale but can't crush one grey knight, then it takes away from the belief of inevitable armageddon and robs the universe of some of its appeal.

MvS
21-02-2011, 09:52
If there's the possibility of a grey knight surviving the realm of Chaos, where even the Chaos Gods can't jsut reach out and kill him, then where's the emotive investment that comes from heroic sacrifice?
Surviving is okay, depending on how it's played. Whupping everything in his sight while he's in the Warp...? Too hard to swallow. He sounds as powerful as a pre-Fall Magnus. Perhaps moreso.

But I don't think this is about marketing or a deliberate 'dumbing down' for a specific target audience. I think this is just about D-list writers being given the lead on writing projects. A good narrative well told doesn't just crap itself into existence.

Sanguinor being a good case in point.

Taipan
21-02-2011, 09:55
I really don't see what people have to complain about really. Lets examine the threat Chaos poses in the current background:

- Every psyker ever born is a potential vector for Daemons
- Daemonic incursions are rare, but when they do occur, the world in question is utterly screwed unless the Malleus or GK arrive in time to seal the portal and banish the daemons. Once the start spilling out, they propogate their existence by killing and destroying everything around them. The Tzeentchian ones read the future and outstrategise you, Nurglite ones turns the dead against you, Slanneshi ones corrupt and paralyse with little more than a glance, Khorne steamrollers you with unreal warriors of impossible potency. In many cases (noted in the Daemon codex and elsewhere), the Imperium is forced to simply call down Exterminatus, because conventional forces don't stand a chance.
- The Traitor Legions have mostly shattered into warbands since the Heresy, but even those scattered fragments of the old Legions are enough to destroy worlds and outfight the Guard. They are often utilising ancient wargear stolen of eachother or loyalists, their supply lines don't exist except in the most organised or favoured (Black Legion, Word Bearers etc).
- Abbadon overwhelmed Battlefleet Gothic during the Gothic War and forced the Eldar to sacrifice their greatest seer for pretty much nothing, plus destroying all the Blackstones he couldn't bring under his direct control. Followed up that devastation with the assault on Cadia in the 13th Black Crusade, where he has been barely halted in the naval war and he is winning the ground campaign. As many have said, plenty of Imperial players are in denial about said developments, but thats where things stand.

So, pretty much Chaos is poised to break out of the Cadian system and launch an assault on the Solar system. Abbadon hasn't failed, he's clocking off for a beer made from the blood of Cadians and Imperial Navy Captains (Eldrad added for that extra zing), then he'll get back to the much harder task of cracking the defences shielding Terra. Win or lose, Abby has still struck the Imperium a fatal blow, drawing their armed strength to one location when so many others nip at all corners of the empire.

As far as the Chaos Gods go, they're pretty happy with events. The Imperium has died the slow death that Tzeentch preferred, Nurgle has his Herald running around spreading the Plague of Unbelief, and Slannesh and Khorne are having fun on Cadia bleeding the defenders dry. Plus in the process, they'll be destroying those pesky Necron pylons.

The thing to remember is that from the lowliest daemonic foot-soldier to the mightiest and most venerable Greater Daemon/Prince, they're all playthings of their respective patron. So, it largely doesn't matter if a daemonic incursion fails or succeeds. Its true the Four Powers hate the Grey Knights, because they represent something totally inimical to their plans (incorruptible psykers), but they're still a drop in the Ocean of Souls. Daigo could walk through the Immaterium and tear down every last bastion and Daemon to stand against him, and the Four Powers still wouldn't care. Time has no meaning in such a place, so it doesn't matter.

The truly depressing fact that every Grey Knight has to countenance is that while they might live for centuries and hold back hundreds if not thousands of Daemonic incursions, it's all for nothing. Humanity is still doomed, it's just a question of when, not if. Before we even stood upright, we featured in the plans of at least four seperate factions (Old Ones, Eldar, Necrontyr, Chaos), all pulling and prodding us to different destinies.

Thats what I love about Chaos. Humanity is a plaything to the Four Powers, their attempts to remain pure and seperate pathetic and amusing. The only thing that registers as a potential problem isn't the Grey Knights or even the Emperor, it's the C'Tan and their plans to permanently seperate realspace from the Immaterium. The Deciever and Tzeentch are pretty evenly matched in terms of cunning plans and manipulating us, the Nightbringer can cut apart even the most lethal of Chaos's champions and even the other C'Tan can't match it, the Dragon can warp the laws of reality to almost the same degree as any Chaos sorceror and matches the endless legions of Chaos with technology to cut them off from the power that sustains them in realspace. The Outsider sends Tyranids running, so his effect on beings of pure warp-energy (who themselves are subdued by the cold energies of the Hive-Mind) would probably be just as debilitating.

Chaos and the C'Tan are the two big contenders in this battle for our enslavement. The former promises the illusion of power and toys with its food, the latter only elevates Pariahs to be the prison guards, and treats the rest as mere cattle to sustain them.

So Chaos players, take heart. Everything has already happened, all that remains is for all the pieces to go through the motions.

AlexHolker
21-02-2011, 10:45
- Daemonic incursions are rare, but when they do occur, the world in question is utterly screwed unless the Malleus or GK arrive in time to seal the portal and banish the daemons. Once the start spilling out, they propogate their existence by killing and destroying everything around them. The Tzeentchian ones read the future and outstrategise you, Nurglite ones turns the dead against you, Slanneshi ones corrupt and paralyse with little more than a glance, Khorne steamrollers you with unreal warriors of impossible potency. In many cases (noted in the Daemon codex and elsewhere), the Imperium is forced to simply call down Exterminatus, because conventional forces don't stand a chance.
You don't see how letting one man slaughter them in the Warp, where they are strongest and he shouldn't even be capable of existing, undermines this threat?

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 10:46
I've much preferred Fantasy Chaos in all forms over 40k Chaos, but recently this has taken the biscuit.

I actually think (apologies to those CSM players) that the Space Marine part of Chaos cheapened them a lot. Currently as it stands, why bother going traitor with no rewards?

In Fantasy, the Chaos Warrior was a mortal man gifted by Chaos and is on the whole much more powerful than his peers. But it's a fleeting power, and is gone tomorrow catastrophically after his quick climb.

But in 40k, the loyalist Space Marines have it all already, and get worse for turning to Chaos.

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 11:24
I've much preferred Fantasy Chaos in all forms over 40k Chaos, but recently this has taken the biscuit.

I actually think (apologies to those CSM players) that the Space Marine part of Chaos cheapened them a lot. Currently as it stands, why bother going traitor with no rewards?

In Fantasy, the Chaos Warrior was a mortal man gifted by Chaos and is on the whole much more powerful than his peers. But it's a fleeting power, and is gone tomorrow catastrophically after his quick climb.

But in 40k, the loyalist Space Marines have it all already, and get worse for turning to Chaos.

I'd like to see a Chaos book like 2nd Edition where you had EVERYTHING, plus the corrupted kitchen sink.

Or, if they insist on separate codecagons (the new plural. Tell your friends), then a LatD with Dark Mechanicus and Traitor Guard and Mutants without Marines in it. Show ALL the Chaos armies. I mean, Daemons got their own book for no reason, so, give 99% of the Forces of Chaos a table-top representation, damn it. Give us Lost and the Damned.

Sephiroth
21-02-2011, 11:29
Surviving is okay, depending on how it's played. Whupping everything in his sight while he's in the Warp...? Too hard to swallow. He sounds as powerful as a pre-Fall Magnus. Perhaps moreso.

More so. He's not even tempted by anything while he waltzes around for example, Slaanesh's domain.

I will repeat what I said in the original Grey Knight rumour thread: even The Emperor of Mankind, was cautious of boarding Horus' flagship and facing him, due to the high chance he would be corrupted.

For a Grey Knight, even a Grand Master, to wander the Realm of Chaos, paints him as more powerful than the Emperor, who due to being on the Golden Throne, hasn't suffered this one-up-manship.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 11:40
I'd like to see a Chaos book like 2nd Edition where you had EVERYTHING, plus the corrupted kitchen sink.

Or, if they insist on separate codecagons (the new plural. Tell your friends), then a LatD with Dark Mechanicus and Traitor Guard and Mutants without Marines in it. Show ALL the Chaos armies. I mean, Daemons got their own book for no reason, so, give 99% of the Forces of Chaos a table-top representation, damn it. Give us Lost and the Damned.

If I had my way, I wouldn't have a CSM codex at all, but a Chaos Codex; if I had to separate them then I would make it Chaos Mortals:

Chaos Lord/Sorcerer Lord: Leaders of the mortal forces (apart from DP), they come from all walks of life, whether 1st founding Space Marine or humble cultist; with their gifts of Chaos it doesn't matter at this stage.

Legions / Ancient / Chosen Chaos Space Marines: Stronger than loyalist Marines, less in numbers. Usually just leaders for the other groups though some are grouped together, like small bands of World Eaters or a group of Rubric marines. Gifts of Chaos give crazy stuff so they almost never use ordinary equipment.

Renegade Space Marines: Similar to loyalists, have mostly mundane gear and the occasional mark if dedicated but nothing special. Led by an Aspiring Champion or Legion/Ancient.

Gifted/Chosen Mortals: These are gifted and greater than renegades. They are more 'Chaos Warrior' like, and don't have connections to marine forces and concentrate more on combat than marines would. Their Champions are on par or can be greater than Legion/Ancient Marines.

Cultists: Ordinary people led by a gifted mortal champion, Renegade Marine or simple cultist leader if led at all. Same sort of stuff as Renegade Marines, but with a weaker profile and worse equipment.

Support units are then derived from each of these, so while a Renegade Marine would use their old equipment, a type of gifted mortal might be riding Juggernauts or Discs and things like that.

What I want to get is, when they are more and more gifted by Chaos, the line between whether they started as Space Marine, Human PDF, Eldar, Tau or whatever is blurred so much that it doesn't matter; you see only Chaos.

Zerodyme
21-02-2011, 11:58
When I read the part about Draigo it got me thinking too:
The Warp has always been descirbed as something that normal humans can't even look into, without going insane. I understand how someone like a GK Grandmaster doesn't go crazy etc. BUT: I'm not quite sure, how he does all this things, while he's in the warp... I mean, it's the Immaterium. No matter. It is composed of energy, raw emotions, incomprehensible for a human. How can this guy (who is in my understanding composed of matter) take such influence on the warp. I always unterstood things like cities and Khornes throne etc. as abstract concepts, not real places within the warp. The demon worlds are at the Border of the Warp, places ike the EyeOfTerror and so on, where Warp and material Universe "mix", so that's understandable... But with the rest? I just don't see, how he does this, without becoming some sort of abstract warp entity himself.
And while this is a really big ?!? to me, I don' quite hate his background as mauch as others seem to do. I like the fact that he is being described as this super-Warp-Chuck-Norris, but he is kind of M'kar s plaything, and he is doomed to be trapped forever. This has a nice, semitragic ring to me, as he could be an incredible leader for the GK, but he is forced to forever just follow demonic incursions and show up, when they do.

And with Coteaz: At first, I didn't like the fact, that his background seems to change rather drastically (from "His name alone is enough so Stop a Demon" to "He's at te border of giving into radical methods"), but in retrospective, I always had the feeling, that he was too good to be true, when reading about him in the old DH Codex. So i think, I can live with it, in terms of Character evolution...

In terms of general watering down: I just really hate the current Codex: CSM, so I reserve judgement until there is a new one, but all in all, I can sense this tendency too.
(Sorry, if the english isn't too good, I didn't get much sleep :p )

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 11:59
I'd rather have one, hardcover, uber Chaos 'dex, myself, too.

Brother of the Hydra
21-02-2011, 12:23
For me the issue is that GW do not seem to kill off characters, imo its a natural progression and the battles always seem to be in the now timeline, it bugs me. So Eldrad finally died and should he appear in a future Codex Eldar, hell no (a back ground story is fine) but will he appear.. yes!! why; but I bought a model.. :cries::cries: bore-off will ya...

Whats wrong with a WD battle report to see if a character dies off, let the dice decide!!

I have not seen anything on the new background of the Grey Knights but I think its already been said GW gear up to Tweenagers so expect the complete overload of "so-in-so is teh uber". Personally I just ignore the Tweenager ************ and try to take out the myth from the possible. Take the generic weapon names.... I just ignore the silly 'insert forename' a Lightning Claw by any other name is still a lightning claw!!

As I said just ignore the Tweenager-twaddle and think like an adult, it works for me, well sometimes ;)

Lothlanathorian
21-02-2011, 12:46
Well, Eldrad would hardly be the first SC in a Codex who was, at present in the timeline, dead.

[lexus]
21-02-2011, 12:53
This is just natural progression. You got the most brutal galaxy. There, you start out with the most brutal galaxy. But if you got the most brutal thing, what are you going to do next? After all, new stuff has to be added. But if these new characters dont overpower the previous characters in all aspects, then whats the point of having new characters? People would stick to the previous characters. Or the previous armies. So you, need to increase the badassery with each new release. Everything has to be more horrible and powerful then before. Obviously, there is a limit to this. At some point, it will just look silly and people will just be disappointed in the blatant stupidity of something that tries to be to badass. I mean, a whole army of things that would make Chuck Norris run crying to his mom just looks stupid.

I believe it will pull itself straight at some point. They will find out that kids will still buy it, even if the background of the army is no longer a picture of Chuck Norris crying for his mom, but is more balanced when it comes to the amount of badass.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 12:59
Thing is, you get silly power inflation. The original fluff material more or less did set out things of what could and couldn't be done, with little oneupmanship. In fact, the older characters were usually the stronger ones, and the ones in an ancient age (eg Primarchs, Phoenix Lords) were the most revered and powerful and the modern guy still look up to.

Now, it's like you have one guy who can destroy planets with an energy beam, but then there's a new guy who's 1000 times more powerful than him. What does he do, fling galaxies around at people?

Thanatos_elNyx
21-02-2011, 13:27
Agree with Poseidal.

If we do get a new Chaos Book.
It needs to include everything, Traitor Legions, Renegades, Daemons, Traitor Guard, LatD, etc. (Seperate Daemons is less than optimal but could be tolerable)

Atm they are just another colour of MEQ (and not very good at that).

Lord_Crull
21-02-2011, 13:54
Abaddon is empowered by all four ruinous powers and loses constantly.

Actually no. the details of Abbadon's crusades are rarely elaborated on.


A single planet (yeah it's a fortress world and all but it's one planet) always, always throws him back.


Again no..
1. The Black Crusades, contrary to popular belief, do not always attack Cadia. The 12th Crusade (Gothic War) took place several sector away from Cadia.

2. Abaddon is not thrown back by a single planet. He usually get's past it even if he does not take Cadia. Black Crusades are multi-sector wide offensives. Read any of the events from the 13th Black Crusade. In fact crack open the old 3.5 Chaos Codex, it shows exactly how far Abaddon's crusades have gotten, most of them are past Cadia actually.


and you have Abaddon twiddling his mustache as he shakes his fist at a bunch of guardsmen.


That's not really true at all. The Segmentum Obscuras is probably the most heavily militarised place in the Imperium. And that's before renforcement. It's hardly a ''bunch of Guardsmen.''

Sykorax
21-02-2011, 17:29
I think its further worsened by the who each faction is listed as combatting.

In chaos or CSM fluff the times when they do attack a popular named faction or world, they will "be a threat" but fail as in the case of Cadia & various homeworlds of the Imperium. The other 95% of the attacks described they're winning on backwater whocaresville worlds or taking out chapter unknown which doesn't give much credibility.

Compare this to the imperial fluff where they take down avatars of known craftworlds, dropping daemons of khorne, nurgle, tzeentch & slaanesh - all of which are powerhouse entities of known antagonistic forces that people can relate to.

It's just that the imperial forces have nothing significant for while chaos can destroy which is that impressive. They have no known superbeings comparable to greater daemons to fight to show their prowess so instead of killing off known characters they'll list a new made up chapter to just die.

Chaos Champion: I've killed 500 guard and 100 marines with my own bare hands!
Imperial Hero: Well I took out a bloodthirster last tuesday!

Which sounds more of an acheivement? One is easily replaceable in high numbers while the other is a rarity or at least should be

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 18:19
Chaos Champion: I've killed 500 guard and 100 marines with my own bare hands!
Imperial Hero: Well I took out a bloodthirster last tuesday!

Which sounds more of an acheivement? One is easily replaceable in high numbers while the other is a rarity or at least should be

True, but mortals die, while Avatars and Daemons just respawn back at base.

Depulsor
21-02-2011, 18:27
The real Problem for me is, that its just bad written.
The general ideas arent really that bad. GK for example ARE the most powerfull marines.
And marines are already REALLY powerfull.
Yes, they actually fight against demon-primarchs and WIN.
Or even the imperial guard: They arent THAT weak.
And in the end, chaos might be winning anyway.

So its not the raw "facts" that are bad, but that much of the new storys are told in a way, that make the antagonists look weak or even pathetic.

KingDeath
21-02-2011, 18:45
The real Problem for me is, that its just bad written.
The general ideas arent really that bad. GK for example ARE the most powerfull marines.
And marines are already REALLY powerfull.
Yes, they actually fight against demon-primarchs and WIN.
Or even the imperial guard: They arent THAT weak.
And in the end, chaos might be winning anyway.

So its not the raw "facts" that are bad, but that much of the new storys are told in a way, that make the antagonists look weak or even pathetic.

I think there should be a serious limit to what a normal mortal being can do.
No matter how long they train, now matter how elite they are, even the mighty Grey Knights/ Space Marines are ultimately nothing more than flesh and bone. There is only so much a human, or posthuman, body can endure, it's reactions can only become so fast before it transcendents any pretension of plausibility just as a mind will sooner or later be pushed to it's breaking point.

Bergen Beerbelly
21-02-2011, 18:58
I think it's honestly about time they did. Chaos 2nd edition was just absolutely WAY too over the top.

Since then the army as a whole isn't quite as powerful but for some reason they LOVE their little chaos love children so much they tend to over the top power them beyond belief.

Chaos is NOT all powerful and never should have been. But they sure like to make them seem that way.

I am glad they made them finally on par with everyone else instead of stupidly powerful.

KingDeath
21-02-2011, 19:12
I think it's honestly about time they did. Chaos 2nd edition was just absolutely WAY too over the top.

Since then the army as a whole isn't quite as powerful but for some reason they LOVE their little chaos love children so much they tend to over the top power them beyond belief.

Chaos is NOT all powerful and never should have been. But they sure like to make them seem that way.

I am glad they made them finally on par with everyone else instead of stupidly powerful.

I prefer stupidly powerful but fractured beyond repair. So you can have Chaoslords which make your average chaptermaster look like a child while still
keeping the possibility of defeat in battle for said Lord, merely by virtue of being outnumbered and outgunned.

Son of Sanguinius
21-02-2011, 19:56
Actually no. the details of Abbadon's crusades are rarely elaborated on.



Again no..
1. The Black Crusades, contrary to popular belief, do not always attack Cadia. The 12th Crusade (Gothic War) took place several sector away from Cadia.

2. Abaddon is not thrown back by a single planet. He usually get's past it even if he does not take Cadia. Black Crusades are multi-sector wide offensives. Read any of the events from the 13th Black Crusade. In fact crack open the old 3.5 Chaos Codex, it shows exactly how far Abaddon's crusades have gotten, most of them are past Cadia actually.



That's not really true at all. The Segmentum Obscuras is probably the most heavily militarised place in the Imperium. And that's before renforcement. It's hardly a ''bunch of Guardsmen.''

I can't agree with you more, Lord_Crull.

Isn't it ironic that people complaining about the shortsightedness of Abaddon's character can't see the scope themselves? :)

chriscrowing
21-02-2011, 20:01
I agree with most of what's been said above.

I remember being about nine or ten and my next door neighbour was a teenager who collected early 40k & epic scale, and had the original Realms of Chaos books - I had never before, and have never since seen anything so cool.

I hate the way that Chaos (and other things, most notably the Eldar) keeps getting powered down to make Imperial characters or whatever new force they are shilling (Tau, Necrons, Nids...) at the time.

A Greater Daemon should beat anyone, with the exception of an Avatar or similar in one on one combat, but can be defeated (which is banished rather than killed of course, but counts as a kill for the purposes of VP) by being outnumbered and outgunned.

Basically, your space marine special character of much awesomeness (Calgar, Dante, the Grey Knights CM...) should be able to perhaps survive a turn or two's hand to hand with the daemon, but could only banish it if it had been seriously shot up beforehand.

Put it this way - it was a big deal when a PRIMARCH put down a greater daemon, so I don't expect a mere Astartes to be doing it as a matter of course.

The 40k setting is brilliant, Chaos is a stunning, versatile, enthralling faction but GWs repeated desire to ram a new 'dex down our throats or force us to buy new models is nauseating.

Chaos has been repeatedly devalued, made less characterful and interesting, the Eldar have been made to look like weak space elves, despite the richness of their background, the Orks have been destroyed by rules designed to make them silly, there has been a disproportionate amount of time spent on Imperial factions, especially a dozen flavours of Astartes, compared to relatively little time spent on other, more varied and interesting races, the Squats are still gone, the Necrons were poorly thought out and contradicted acres of extant fluff, the Tau were promising but have been left to wither on the vine and the Nids have been neglected in favour of the Necrons.

For me, the rot started the second that GW decided to introduce the Tau & Necrons and when they got the license for Lord of the Rings. What was once a passionate company who loved wargaming, loved the background aspect, the community aspect etc. and were deadly serious abnout staying true to the enduring and evolving spirit of the universes have become a shallow and venal money-grubbing corporation.

If I was to still play 40k, it would be under 3rd ed rules with folks of the same age - I just try to pretend the last ten years or so haven't happened....

Depulsor
21-02-2011, 20:44
I think there should be a serious limit to what a normal mortal being can do.
No matter how long they train, now matter how elite they are, even the mighty Grey Knights/ Space Marines are ultimately nothing more than flesh and bone. There is only so much a human, or posthuman, body can endure, it's reactions can only become so fast before it transcendents any pretension of plausibility just as a mind will sooner or later be pushed to it's breaking point.

We dont talk about a grot or something. Every GK is a genetically modified psyker with the best equipment mankind has to offer. Backed up by his unbreakable loyality and faith in the emperor and his mission.
In my opinion, they deserve to break the limit just as much as any chaosmarine.

The emperor blasted horus into oblivion, although all four chaosgods backed him up and the emperor was seriously wounded at that time. There is also a limit to chaos.

The idea, that a chaosmarine is just a marine+1 is actually not really plausible or realistic as well. :eyebrows:
Chaos deserves to be interestening, versatile and powerfull, but not just "always more powerfull".

Of course, the went over the top this time. "The GK-GM shows up, and the demons run in horror" is silly, I agree. But GK deserve to be powerfull beyond the limits a a mere mortal.

Korraz
21-02-2011, 21:08
All these deeds might be fine in reality, but NOT IN THE WARP FFS. Not in the actual domain of the Chaos Gods. NOT in the personal garden of Nurgle, which is actually an extension of his body and the concentration of his power. Tzeentch should NOT hide in a corner while Draigo smashes his city and then come out of his hideout like a cliché nerd to rebuild his little toy city after the resident football jock has crushed it.

The fact that the Nemesis wasn't dominaiting these discussions or that there weren't thousands of hatethreads about the Dark Eldar dex should tell you something.

And the demons killed by Draigo won't respawn at the base, as it seems.

TrooperTino
21-02-2011, 21:38
When I read pawns of chaos and in the first part imperial soldiers are killing babys, well its very cruel but I thought thats what the fight against chaos would be, no quarter given, and yes they would kill babys.

GW today still talks about things like genocid but in a way we are shown war today in the television... in a clean an human way.

The way chaos is described and used in BL books or codexes suffers from the same loosing of teeth. It's not only because of the new audience (12-14 year old), I was at that age when I came to warhammer... I think it's because GW hasn't the guts anymore to write about soldiers killing babys, deamons having sex or sex in general, or the real horror that chaos should be like the OP said.

[lexus]
21-02-2011, 21:40
I agree with most of what's been said above.

I remember being about nine or ten and my next door neighbour was a teenager who collected early 40k & epic scale, and had the original Realms of Chaos books - I had never before, and have never since seen anything so cool.

I hate the way that Chaos (and other things, most notably the Eldar) keeps getting powered down to make Imperial characters or whatever new force they are shilling (Tau, Necrons, Nids...) at the time.

A Greater Daemon should beat anyone, with the exception of an Avatar or similar in one on one combat, but can be defeated (which is banished rather than killed of course, but counts as a kill for the purposes of VP) by being outnumbered and outgunned.

Basically, your space marine special character of much awesomeness (Calgar, Dante, the Grey Knights CM...) should be able to perhaps survive a turn or two's hand to hand with the daemon, but could only banish it if it had been seriously shot up beforehand.

Put it this way - it was a big deal when a PRIMARCH put down a greater daemon, so I don't expect a mere Astartes to be doing it as a matter of course.
For gameplay reasons alone that is just a stupid idea. Who is gonna go play against Chaos if they can field a demon that requires a full army to bring down? For that matter, who is going to play against any army that has a unit or units that require such insane amount of firepower to kill, and who can, easily, eat up your army if you dont deal with them. Besides, it beats the whole spirit of the game. There should always be a little chance that the humble Space Marine sergeant with powerfist kills a greater demon after it murdered the rest of the Tactical squad. Why should only special characters be able to kill special characters? Why cant a normal human become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

Sure, I like the idea of having powerful units that can do a whole lot of damage. But no unit should ever be powerful enough to require a whole army to take down.

I agree though, if the stories from the leaked codex are true, it sounds like a ridiculous background. Grey Knights are powerful sure, but so far they have always died themselves after banishing some demon. That shouldnt change.

Poseidal
21-02-2011, 21:47
;5332278']For gameplay reasons alone that is just a stupid idea. Who is gonna go play against Chaos if they can field a demon that requires a full army to bring down? For that matter, who is going to play against any army that has a unit or units that require such insane amount of firepower to kill, and who can, easily, eat up your army if you dont deal with them. Besides, it beats the whole spirit of the game. There should always be a little chance that the humble Space Marine sergeant with powerfist kills a greater demon after it murdered the rest of the Tactical squad. Why should only special characters be able to kill special characters? Why cant a normal human become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

Apply across factions:

Why can't a humble grot kill a chapter master? why can't a normal Guardian become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

[lexus]
21-02-2011, 21:51
Apply across factions:

Why can't a humble grot kill a chapter master? why can't a normal Guardian become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

They definitely should. But that is a matter of balancing. The fact that they didnt properly balance the Imperial factions doesnt justify them messing up the balance any further with the rest of the factions though.

Kravunhive
21-02-2011, 22:09
Ok I've read alot of the comments in this thread and there a some interesting opinions on both sides. I will say that I lean more towards Hellbore's way of thinking. And I'll explain why:

Put simply. Matt Ward doesn't understand 40k. I haven't played 5th ED so i can't comment on how the armies play but I have read alot about them. And from what i can see, in the way Ward writes like he is a power gamer. He likes hyper-powerful armies of doom that sweep all before them. The stats he writes directly affect the fluff and vice versa. A character or units stat line is used as the reasoning for influencing their fluff. As a result we have characters which punch Avatars simply to justify to us how 'awesome' they are.

In fact what you get is a cartoon version of a once great character, eg the current Calgar, who now has no depth as a character and is simply an ‘awesome and cool’ space marine commander. Punching an Avatar has a serious affect on the Avatar as an enemy. It trivialises him/them. The same can be said for Daemons in the new GK codex.

From what I've seen, there's something about an Inquisitor smashing up Nurgle’s garden and someone writing their name on a daemons heart*? This is rubbish sterile writing. This is an prime example of characters being hyper inflated because of their stats. Realing off a list of their deeds isn’t enough. Not everybody wins. Where’s the drama if one side is seen as all powerful?

Matt Ward is a gamer first and fluff writer second. He should stick to the gaming side... Maybe?
Daemons need to be feared and Grey Knights need to be depicted as heroic defenders of humanity. They are tragic heroes, as the daemonhunter dex did a good job of pointing out. But making the GK too powerful and all conquering decreases the value of both sides as factions within the background. Simply GK can’t win like it’s a walk in the park. If you diminish the threat chaos poses then I’m left with the question, why should I care? There needs to be a balance of sorts. GK should be a last resort to contain daemons, the Inquisition does much of the ground work.

I’m disappointed to hear about Coteaz. He is a great character how now sounds like he’s been reconted. Coteaz was ambitious as stated in the Daemonhunters dex but from what I hear he sounds on the point of turning rogue. Matt Ward can’t write Inquisitors. They need to be mysterious figures boarding on the edge between heroic and tragic. The inquisition is about the behind the scenes politics. The Ordo Malleus would be no different. One faction likes using daemon weapons to defeat chaos the other doesn’t.

My point is keep the characters true to the background. Yes this is science fantasy but don't make them achieve feats like smashing up the warp only to have it 'rebuild' itself. Whats the point of action if theres no consequence? Ok, so this character achieved nothing? Well then that doesnt make him special it makes him stupid, surely?

Just my thoughts,
Kravunhive

* Why would the GK or INQ who did this toy with a Daemon? This should be the other way around. A daemon carves his name on the heroes chest thus creating a 'grudge match' between the two. The Character hunts tirelessly to kill the Daemon that did it. Maybe it has a corrupting affect? Maybe his hatred forces him to react rashly? As it stands it is poor writing.

TheRatsInTheWalls
21-02-2011, 22:11
;5332278']For gameplay reasons alone that is just a stupid idea. Who is gonna go play against Chaos if they can field a demon that requires a full army to bring down? For that matter, who is going to play against any army that has a unit or units that require such insane amount of firepower to kill, and who can, easily, eat up your army if you dont deal with them. Besides, it beats the whole spirit of the game. There should always be a little chance that the humble Space Marine sergeant with powerfist kills a greater demon after it murdered the rest of the Tactical squad. Why should only special characters be able to kill special characters? Why cant a normal human become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

Sure, I like the idea of having powerful units that can do a whole lot of damage. But no unit should ever be powerful enough to require a whole army to take down.

I agree though, if the stories from the leaked codex are true, it sounds like a ridiculous background. Grey Knights are powerful sure, but so far they have always died themselves after banishing some demon. That shouldnt change.

First, I don't think he was saying it should take an entire army to take down a Greater Deamon, just more than one man. I imagine, although it is presumptuous, that he would also like to see Greater Deamons increased in power to the point of being Apocalypse data sheets rather than just a standard Codex choice.
Beyond that, I don't think anyone has too much of a problem with fluff to game disparities. What gamer on this forum has not excepted the fact that our units cannot perfectly emulate the fluff to keep the game balanced? The rules just do not have the precision or scale to accurately emulate the differences described in the fluff. For example, Eldar should be faster than humans, but the current rules do not really allow for that. It doesn't make complete sense, but we Eldar players accept it and keep playing the game. That said, it would be nice if they tried a little harder.


As to the original topic: I don't quite see what is wrong with marketing the original darkness of the 40k world to kids. I got into the game when I was 12 and it was the bleak hopelessness of the situation that appealed to me. It was different from most Sci-Fi settings, and that made it interesting (the same was true for Fantasy, but it also had rat-men who would have won me over with any world). The current taming and exaggeration of the fluff cannot just be to attract kids, as they didn't seem to have any problem trying to market to me back then. My parents also had no problem with things like the old metal Deamonettes. It is possible that my family was abnormal, but I can't imagine they were too far off the norm. I think inexperienced (or just bad) writers, and a disinterested corporate leadership are the far more likely culprits. Well, that and the this new obsession with special characters. I get the desire to include named characters with variations on the normal rules, but why must they always cost fewer points and be way more bad-ass than the generic characters?
I also don't quite understand people's problem with Chaos being incredibly powerful. That power comes at a price in the fluff, and results in a smaller army on the table. Chaos spends too much time beating itself up to be much of a threat if the individuals are not more powerful than their organized Imperial counterparts.

havoc3149
21-02-2011, 22:21
It's going to be real sad when we all age and those 12 year old kid's start to become angry neckbeards themselves, and start complaining that why their super awesome Calgar got his ass kicked by a mega powerful super space marine whose actually the father of the Emperor and eats Marty Stu's for breakfast. Actually, I really don't wanna think about it, its just too grim dark even for me.

MajorWesJanson
21-02-2011, 22:41
And the demons killed by Draigo won't respawn at the base, as it seems.

"The daemons he slew inveitably returned in new bodies"

Bergen Beerbelly
21-02-2011, 22:49
I remember when there was a lot of tongue in cheek to 40k. I'm wondering if that's why they are writing such stupid fluff...maybe they long for the days of tongue in cheek 40k stories instead of the grim-dark it has become.
:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Obrimos
22-02-2011, 00:13
I need to get some sleep soon but I just wanted to say two things:

1)Eldrad Ulthran is not an individual. It is a title. It means eldest of Ulthwé.
There will always be an Eldrad as long as Ulthwé exists. Also, like an Exarch, he is immortal. If someone finds his armour he can be revived.

2)Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines FROM HELL.
Even the lowest of the ancient legionnaires should be more powerful a fighter than the youngster Calgar.
At least they should compare the two like Chaos Knights compare to Knights of Bretonnia (or Grail Knights in the case of Grey Knights, lol).
That means WS/BS 5 for all legionnaires (and arcane weaponry and armour for the chosen).

Cheers!

ExquisiteMonkey
22-02-2011, 01:20
I prefer the set up/description they had in the previous (i think) codex. The 'why collect a chaos marine army' part of the codex made me want to collect chaos marines more than any other bit of chaos fluff/marine fluff/traitor fluff.
It was the part where they described the Marines as being the true 'DR Evil' -- esque villians of the 40K universe. The ones who have been wronged, grown tired of following others, want to dominate others etc etc. These are the guys who can actually pull this stunt off. They have the tools (chaos), experience (10K years of fighting), and the ambition (they're a chaos ******* lord!).
They surround themselves with their chosen elite, who in themselves hold planets/sectors in their clawed grasp. Their lowliest follower, the humble chaos marine, had more experience than bloody chapter master's......

alas, the days of characters with character....

Depulsor
22-02-2011, 01:24
Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines FROM HELL

Beeing mutated doesnt make a marine better at default. Some mutations maybe, but others would make him slower/stupid/insane ect.
Then: Some Others like the slannesh-ones dont train 18 hours a day anymore, because the got something better to do ect.

"... Is the dark side stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive." :p

orz192
22-02-2011, 03:02
From what I've seen, there's something about an Inquisitor smashing up Nurgle’s garden and someone writing their name on a daemons heart*? This is rubbish sterile writing. This is an prime example of characters being hyper inflated because of their stats. Realing off a list of their deeds isn’t enough. Not everybody wins. Where’s the drama if one side is seen as all powerful?


* Why would the GK or INQ who did this toy with a Daemon? This should be the other way around. A daemon carves his name on the heroes chest thus creating a 'grudge match' between the two. The Character hunts tirelessly to kill the Daemon that did it. Maybe it has a corrupting affect? Maybe his hatred forces him to react rashly? As it stands it is poor writing.


It wasn't a Inquisitor it was A Grand Master Grey Knight. Mortarion had just killed the previous Grand master. A bunch of grey knights were able to banish Angron even though one hundred died in the process as I remember. Apparently they were able to banish Mortarion too at some point, and at the very least they lost one grand master in the fight and who knows what else. He didn't carve his name either he carved the previous grand masters name into the heart.

The city in the warp he sacked belonged to a daemon of Tzeentch but not Tzeentch himself. The Gardens of nurgle grew right back so he basically did not do anything worthwhile. The five Slaanesh Daemonettes that tried to seduce him he killed. And every Daemon he kills will respawn so all of Draigo's victories in the warp are basically hollow,

Sephiroth
22-02-2011, 03:34
The Gardens of nurgle grew right back so he basically did not do anything worthwhile. The five Slaanesh Daemonettes that tried to seduce him he killed. And every Daemon he kills will respawn so all of Draigo's victories in the warp are basically hollow,

And by comparison, what have the Chaos Gods achieved against him? Nothing. If anything he does is worthless, likewise everything the Realm of Chaos has thrown at him has been moot, he's apparently faced everything it has to the point they don't even seek him out (sans blood-crazed Khorne daemons) any more.

He is not a cursed figure. Curse implies some kind misfortune. Seperation from his Chapter/brothers is not in itself enough to justify this, as many Space Marines can be stationed somewhere remote, like a stronghold of the Deathwatch, and since we've established the Realm of Chaos doesn't phase him, being there is just an excuse to show us how badass he is.

And for all the talk, about him being the plaything of M'Kar the Reborn or the Dark Gods, he is still pulled into the Material universe with each Great Incursion, to thwart them before being dragged back to his supposedly cursed existence - stuck in a Realm that doesn't even phase him as he wanders it, topping cities and leaving daemon corpses by the score.

His predicament is a way to show off he's badass and basically turn up whenever needed, which given the Sanguinor in Codex: Blood Angels, seems to be how the author likes to define his special characters.

abasio
22-02-2011, 05:45
Seing as a mortal wouldn't be able to survive in the warp as it contains no matter, no oxygen and what not, I just don't see how anything this Grand Master managed to achieve in the realm of the warp was anything more than:

1. A chaos vision attempting to corrupt him with delusions of grandeur.
2. Imperial propoganda designed to make people who actually know of the GK's existence, being extraordinarily terrified/in awe of them.

Anything else goes so far beyond bad writing to complete idiocy, which might still be the case but there is just no way for him to even survive in the warp let alone do anything. Demon world in the eye of terror: maybe, in the warp itself: no chance.

Hellebore
22-02-2011, 06:31
And by comparison, what have the Chaos Gods achieved against him? Nothing. If anything he does is worthless, likewise everything the Realm of Chaos has thrown at him has been moot, he's apparently faced everything it has to the point they don't even seek him out (sans blood-crazed Khorne daemons) any more.

He is not a cursed figure. Curse implies some kind misfortune. Seperation from his Chapter/brothers is not in itself enough to justify this, as many Space Marines can be stationed somewhere remote, like a stronghold of the Deathwatch, and since we've established the Realm of Chaos doesn't phase him, being there is just an excuse to show us how badass he is.

And for all the talk, about him being the plaything of M'Kar the Reborn or the Dark Gods, he is still pulled into the Material universe with each Great Incursion, to thwart them before being dragged back to his supposedly cursed existence - stuck in a Realm that doesn't even phase him as he wanders it, topping cities and leaving daemon corpses by the score.

His predicament is a way to show off he's badass and basically turn up whenever needed, which given the Sanguinor in Codex: Blood Angels, seems to be how the author likes to define his special characters.

Yes, that is one of the defining features of a mary sue - 'flaws' that aren't flaws at all and only act as a way to further show how awesome a character is.

As I said earlier, this isn't a very good excuse to let someone do whatever they want. It's ok, they got better does not make it ok for a character to trounce everything in front of it.

I mean, what Draigo has done is th equivalent of an ork getting into Terra and just wandering around beating the snot out of everyone from the custodes to the arbitrators until they're all too scared to fight him. If it's stupid, it's stupid.

Either it's not real, in which case it's a badly written legend or myth, or it is real, in which case it's badly written background. Either way, it's crap, just for different reasons.


Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-02-2011, 06:43
I mean, what Draigo has done is th equivalent of an ork getting into Terra and just wandering around beating the snot out of everyone from the custodes to the arbitrators until they're all too scared to fight him. If it's stupid, it's stupid.

Can you imagine the backlash if that actually happened? :D I love the smell of Space Marine flavored hypocrisy in the morning.

@Abasio. I do think it is possible for a mortal to survive in the warp, assuming the mortal has an incredibly powerful soul and incredible willpower. Those two facets could theoretically allow the mortal to not only retain its shape but also to fuel its body to make up for the lack of oxygen and sustenance. In other words, the mortal mind imposes its own concept of the laws of physics on the local warp energy and makes the energy tolerable while utilizing said energy for bodily functions.

However, I sincerely doubt that Ward thought that far ahead for characters like Draigo and Lysander.

abasio
22-02-2011, 08:09
I might not have the best understanding of the warp (but then that's how it should be right? :) ).

If he did manage to survive due to his awesome soul power, what did he stand one? All the citadels, gardens and towers and stuff are just allegories right? We can't understand it so we theorise it as a castle, say, to try and make some sense of the non-sensical dimension and the beings that inhabit it. There was no forest to burn, just warp stuff (eddies and what not) and does warp stuff burn? To me it all stinks like a warp induced hallucination that is the beginning of an epic story of the first GK to fall to chaos.

Well, I can dream can't I? :p

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 08:11
You can dream.

If he actually wrote it that way. Unfortunately, it's written in the way of an omniscient 3rd person narrator so it becomes harder and harder to chalk to being '-in universe'.

Depulsor
22-02-2011, 10:26
The really bad thing about Draigo is, that it is so poorly written. Its not, that the deeds in itself would really be all that impossible... Draigo could be really lucky or even the chaosgods themselfs could find him amusing in a way and help him to some extent. Maybe as he burns nurgles garden, Tzeentch uses him to kick Nurgle in the nuts ect.
But as it is, there seems no attempt to make it seem plausible or even a heroic effort. Its just "he goes there an kicks butt".


Matt Ward is a gamer first and fluff writer second. He should stick to the gaming side... Maybe?


That is a good point. Maybe he just should concentrate on what he can do good and leave the stuff he cant do properly to someone else?

TrooperTino
22-02-2011, 10:30
The really bad thing about Draigo is, that it is so poorly written. Its not, that the deeds in itself would really be all that impossible... Draigo could be really lucky or even the chaosgods themselfs could find him amusing in a way and help him to some extent. Maybe as he burns nurgles garden, Tzeentch uses him to kick Nurgle in the nuts ect.

That is a great way to make it possible. He was just a tool in the chaos gods little games with each others.

Obrimos
22-02-2011, 10:32
@Depulsor:
This is 40k, not Star Wars. ^^
Also I refuse to think of the Warp in the same way as the dark side.

And seriously, it's possible in Warhammer Fantasy, why shouldn't it be possible in 40k?
I tell you why.
Because Space Marines have to be the best.

When I play Chaos undivided I don't feel my troops to be different from loyalists.
I just taste another flavour of marine.
I need to play cult lists to get that feeling.

That doesn't happen when I play Chaos knights against Imperial knights. They are just a bit better, but that is enough to give me the feeling that makes me want to scream: "We are CHAOS!!! We have come to butcher you!"
Maybe I'm just insane.

But thats what Chaos is all about right?

Depulsor
22-02-2011, 12:06
@Obrimos

If you compare the stature of a chaosknight and an empire knight, then it makes complete sense that one is a lot stronger.
When you compare a SM and a CSM, it doesnt.

A demonprince should be better than a SM captain, here I agree 100%.
But why should a chaoslord be better than a chaptermaster?
Because he is evil? Because he has Cow-horns? :eyebrows:
For me, this just isnt plausible.


"We are CHAOS!!! We have come to butcher you!"

I like that. :evilgrin:
A khornelord should indeed be better at the offense, but then he should be worse at defense. And overall he shouldnt be *better*.

Hellebore
22-02-2011, 12:14
@Obrimos

If you compare the stature of a chaosknight and an empire knight, then it makes complete sense that one is a lot stronger.
When you compare a SM and a CSM, it doesnt.

A demonprince should be better than a SM captain, here I agree 100%.
But why should a chaoslord be better than a chaptermaster?
Because he is evil? Because he has Cow-horns? :eyebrows:
For me, this just isnt plausible.


I like that. :evilgrin:
A khornelord should indeed be better at the offense, but then he should be worse at defense. And overall he shouldnt be *better*.

Because on top of his space marine biology he has also been granted supernatural power from his patron(s) and because most chaos lords are veterans with more experience than even the oldest chapter master (Dante).

Being given the mark of a chaos god doesn't suddenly atrophy parts of your body - a marked space marine has all the advantages of a normal space marine AND bonus magical powers beyond those.

Ergo, a chaos lord will be better than a space marine chapter master.

Your example of a chaos knight vs an empire knight provides support from this argument - they are both identical humans with elite training. One is a mortal creature the other is infused with magic that breaks reality. Thus, a chaos knight is better.

How can it be ok for a chaos powered human to be better than a not chaos powered human but not ok for a chaos powered space marine to be better than a not chaos powered space marine?

The logic is IDENTICAL.

Hellebore

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 12:21
Also note that Chaos Warriors don't have a stature much bigger than the less gifted Marauders and have the same statline differences with them as they do with the Empire knights.

Korraz
22-02-2011, 12:36
Once again, the same ugly fact shows its face:
There are basically good ideas in the fluff, but Ward is simply a absolute terrible writer. Nearly every single fluff atrocity he brought upon us could be fixed with five minutes time and a decent writer.

The_NightBringer
22-02-2011, 13:56
Reading this thread, and countless others, it is quite clear that Matt Wards' work is single-handedly degrading the overall quality of our hobby. Now my query is: Why has there been no petition opposing him to stop writing codex's? I know, initially that does sound rather cruel, but his work is quite clearly making the majority of us unhappy. The man's work is like a cancer....at first it was the 5Th edition space marine codex but now....Other armies have fallen victim to his degenerate writing. How long is it, before new authors who will write for GW, start to deem his work to be the "foundation" of comprehending the universe? It's only a matter of time before his work starts to corrupt the very fabric of 40k we all know and love-and change it for the worse!Well I say...like a a cancer, he must be purged, quickly. Before his bias damages any more of our beloved universe. I say "no more" to characters who possess flawless traits. I say "NO MORE" to Matt Ward! Whose with me....?

Either that, or just make him stick to TT rules...

Nightbringer

omegoku
22-02-2011, 14:15
Lets hope that this is just the crest of the silly wave and future books will feature more sensible writing.
A Grey Knight should be a thorn in the side of the Chaos Daemons he fights. A handful of GK should be able to turn the tide and stop an incursion that normal marines would find impossible to stop.
But they should not be able to survive in the Warp itself, maybe planets in the Eye of Terror, but not the formless energy of the Warp.
They should not be able to go into the Realms of the Gods themselves, those realms are the gods. A GK who ended up there should be driven mad in moments, if he survives that long.

A GK should be the best of the best. Able to topple normal marines and chaos marines and daemons. But not so powerful that they win without sacrifice.

To close a rend in the very fabric of existence should cost in both blood and souls, just like opening one does.

Hedgehobbit
22-02-2011, 15:19
I've been reading my old copy of Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and, in that book, they also have stories about inquisitors and such going into the warp and encountering things (like this evil tree made of souls). So that's not totally new.

One thing that that old book stress was that the Chaos powers grew from eddies and whirlpool in the warp and that every time a person used a psychic power, it added energy to the warp, thus strengthening chaos. Even the astronomicon adds power to the Chaos gods. Does this little big of full still exists since it really sets the tone for how pointless the actions of the GKs and Ordo Malleus (sp) really are. Even if they do manage to kill a Chaos god, another one will form to take it's place.

Lars Porsenna
22-02-2011, 15:35
Either that, or just make him stick to TT rules...


Hmm, not a bad idea. Bring back Gav to write the background, and let Ward write the armylist...

Damon.

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 15:45
I'm not a fan of his TT rules either. I think he's the one who started the stat inflation at 5th, which after it went down in 3rd for a while has now gone well above the echelons of 2nd.

Mannimarco
22-02-2011, 15:54
Although in The Lost and the Damned the section about daemon worlds clearly states that the gods can end life there on a whim and nobody can spend long periods of time in the warp without either becoming a slave to Chaos or one of its champions.

theJ
22-02-2011, 16:18
I'm not a fan of his TT rules either. I think he's the one who started the stat inflation at 5th, which after it went down in 3rd for a while has now gone well above the echelons of 2nd.

doubtful.

Quickly leafing through the SM codex, I can see no overly crazy statlines (other than possibly the captain/chapter master). I'd be more willing to blame crudface and the guard codex he wrote (despite my love for the guard).
I could be wrong, ofc, but in hindsight, the SM codex actually feels pretty tame... (statwise, that is. The fluff is still horrible)
Then again, the Ork and Daemon codex were pretty crazy back in their time, too, weren't they? Perhaps it actaully started before 5th...?

Lastie
22-02-2011, 16:53
Although in The Lost and the Damned the section about daemon worlds clearly states that the gods can end life there on a whim and nobody can spend long periods of time in the warp without either becoming a slave to Chaos or one of its champions.

Kador Draigo can just simply walk into Mordor it seems ...

TV Tropes has a wonderful page that seems to practically sum up this whole affair: Running the Asylum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningTheAsylum). The problem when a Shared Universe is, well, shared is that not everyone is going to agree or be consistent with the others in all facts. Hell, even amongst the 40K fanbase there are hugely different opinions regarding even the most mundane of canon 'facts', let alone some of the more exotic concepts (Chaos Grey Knights, anyone?). Now add to that insanity the power to actually write these thoughts on paper and ask people to hand over money for it. It's obvious that those currently running the Asylum are happy with the current state of being otherwise it would not be the state it is. Whether we are happy with it is another matter, and time will tell if we will look back on the recent era of 40K as a Dork Age (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DorkAge) or not.

Poseidal
22-02-2011, 17:11
doubtful.

Quickly leafing through the SM codex, I can see no overly crazy statlines (other than possibly the captain/chapter master). I'd be more willing to blame crudface and the guard codex he wrote (despite my love for the guard).
I could be wrong, ofc, but in hindsight, the SM codex actually feels pretty tame... (statwise, that is. The fluff is still horrible)
Then again, the Ork and Daemon codex were pretty crazy back in their time, too, weren't they? Perhaps it actaully started before 5th...?

I should probably be more specific.

What I see is he always writes a Space Marine Codex with one-upmanship. Where a Xenos faction might get some good stats that make sense, Ward adds a new character or unit to one up that.

It's guys like Mephiston and oddballs like the Sanguinor.

Bergen Beerbelly
22-02-2011, 17:15
It has been and probably always will be about how many stories can they tell that make Space Marines (no matter if it's a regular codex chapter or something like Grey Knights) sell better.

It's easy to cast them, easy to make a single sprue that can modify them to whatever chapter you need, and easy to make them sell by writing crap stories that may not appeal to the casual gamer in their mid 20's or 30's but is pretty cool to a 13 or 14 year old. :eyebrows:

So your not gonna get the engaging stories that made sense in the past and made everyone fall in love with the game. Now you're gonna get video game inspired crap stories like Marneus Calgar punching the Avatar of an ancient War God. :wtf:

If you've already been playing this game for over three years then you have to face it....they don't make this game for you. They make it for that teenage kid that's gonna convince his parents to spend a ton of money on plastic that he won't even care about once he gets into high school and discovers girls.

So nerd raging about it on the internet when you can't really do anything about it is pretty pointless. Please...continue:D

Sarevok
22-02-2011, 17:21
;5330998']This is just natural progression. You got the most brutal galaxy. There, you start out with the most brutal galaxy. But if you got the most brutal thing, what are you going to do next? After all, new stuff has to be added. But if these new characters dont overpower the previous characters in all aspects, then whats the point of having new characters? People would stick to the previous characters. Or the previous armies. So you, need to increase the badassery with each new release. Everything has to be more horrible and powerful then before. Obviously, there is a limit to this. At some point, it will just look silly and people will just be disappointed in the blatant stupidity of something that tries to be to badass. I mean, a whole army of things that would make Chuck Norris run crying to his mom just looks stupid.


Its "natural progession" when you are out of ideas, lazy or just plain bad at writing.

How about writing some characters with actual character?

Look at the Dark Eldar book, you've got people like Malys and Silicus who are more interesting than the Grey Knight bores, and there's not a slain Avatar or Bloodthirster to be found.

insectum7
22-02-2011, 17:34
I should probably be more specific.

What I see is he always writes a Space Marine Codex with one-upmanship. Where a Xenos faction might get some good stats that make sense, Ward adds a new character or unit to one up that.

It's guys like Mephiston and oddballs like the Sanguinor.

Aside from a few minor issues, the characters in C:SM aren't really all that powerful either. I think the only real problems I have with the codex rules is the boost to Storm Shields and the low starting cost of Predators. But if you are just building a reasonably standard marine army, the book is excellent.

I know it's gonna get me in trouble, but I think that if you are building a reasonably standard Chaos army, the Chaos book is pretty damn good. The only major issue I have with it is the fact that Chaos players can't have their faction-specific Demons anymore. That was dumb.

SgtTaters
22-02-2011, 17:42
I can't agree with you more, Lord_Crull.

Isn't it ironic that people complaining about the shortsightedness of Abaddon's character can't see the scope themselves? :)

That's the problem. Abaddon has accomplish a lot, he's slaughtered countless warriors of the imperium, he's plunged dozens of world into hell. But those worlds themselves...

Nobody's ever heard of them. There are no space marines or guardsmen from Savaven or Tarantis. Yeah Abaddon blew up a star system, but it was full of nobodies.

Now, when Abaddon fights NAMED characters, KNOWN factions
Cadians- ravaged blah blah blah but in the end Cadia is still standing and still produces titanic amounts of guardsmen to ship around the galaxy, it's more a show of "wow, Cadians are badass!" than "good job abaddon, Creed didn't kill you".
Ulthwe- Eldrad was so close to killing Abaddon, the warmaster needed to be rescued by the gods. Eldrad was the protagonist anyways, doing a heroic sacrifice and all.

That's Abaddon's problem. When Calgar is killing Night Lords, I've heard of Night Lords, people play Night Lords, that gives Calgar's victory some tangibility.

When Abaddon blows up 'tartanis' it just doesn't have any impact. When Abaddon conquers every other planet but Cadia, that just makes Cadians cooler and the warmaster look foolish.

as a counter-example though, look at Huron. He boarded a Space Wolf (hey, I've heard of those guys!) vessel and made the wolves surrender and join him. That single act is more incredible and has more weight than everything Abaddon has ever done. Because I know what a Space Wolf is, I've played against them, they are an actual tabletop army, they are tangible.



who are more interesting than the Grey Knight bores
Hey, the Grey Knight heroes are cool! They all feel like fairy tale knights!. All of them are cursed in some way, or bear a great responsibility.

Master Mordrak was so tormented by guilt of being the only survivor that the dead haunted him. He thought they blamed him for their death. The greatest of the Imperium's warriors, incorruptibly pure, but he still has a human heart, one that grieves for fallen friends. (it was Huron who brought this perfect warrior to his knees, that guy is just getting more and more interesting...). But then when Mordrak thought he would finally die, his hauntings actually protected him. Now he realizes they stand by their master's side beyond death, and they seek to redeem themselves together to slay Huron.

Brother Captain Stern's fate is tied to the Lord of Change M'kachen. Stern defeated him once, but the greater daemon vowed an eternal vendetta. Over the centuries they've clashed many times, every time Stern stops the Lord of Change's plans from coming to fruition, every time M'Kachen has managed to slaughter all of Stern's companions leaving him the sole survivor. There is a real sense of rivalry and sacrifice, even tragedy in their eternal conflict. Stern bears the scars of their bond on his face, in his heart, and it consumes everyone around him.

Castellan Garran Crowe is the purest soul there is. He wields a powerful daemon sword that the knights fear would pollute and escape even the most remote of prisons, so they put it in the safest place possible, the incorruptible grasp of Castellan Garran Crowe. . He never calls upon its power, it is but a mundane sword in his hands but his incredibly swordsmanship makes up for that. The blade actually empowers everyone that fights against Crowe (gives them furious charge and favored enemy to hit Crowe), calling out so it may be freed and give immesurable power to a weaker soul.

Anval Thrawn is an immortal. He's fallen in battle but always returned. He's ancient but eternally youthful, yet he's seen with his own eyes the rot that consumes the Imperium. He knows it is unstoppable, but he will fight to the end of his life for the Emperor.

Col. Tartleton
22-02-2011, 18:03
Kador Draigo can just simply walk into Mordor it seems ...

TV Tropes has a wonderful page that seems to practically sum up this whole affair: Running the Asylum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningTheAsylum). The problem when a Shared Universe is, well, shared is that not everyone is going to agree or be consistent with the others in all facts. Hell, even amongst the 40K fanbase there are hugely different opinions regarding even the most mundane of canon 'facts', let alone some of the more exotic concepts (Chaos Grey Knights, anyone?). Now add to that insanity the power to actually write these thoughts on paper and ask people to hand over money for it. It's obvious that those currently running the Asylum are happy with the current state of being otherwise it would not be the state it is. Whether we are happy with it is another matter, and time will tell if we will look back on the recent era of 40K as a Dork Age (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DorkAge) or not.

However it wouldn't be that hard to have a handful of people running things creatively. 1 man who is good at writing the story can write all the fluff. 1 man who is good at the rules can do that. It's not as though they're releasing this stuff frequently (and we might get... consistency.) There are what two or three codices per year per system which someone working on as a job can't make decent?

There are fans who make better stuff to fritter away their time...

While My Heart Gently Weeps

I feel like Mortarion.

On the good news the fact the Grey Knights are clearly Heretics makes the Relictors look like the Good guys... oh wait that's devaluing the fluff. Curse you Games Workshop! I'll have find other things to obsess over like education, work, and personal relationships...

theJ
22-02-2011, 18:10
I should probably be more specific.

What I see is he always writes a Space Marine Codex with one-upmanship. Where a Xenos faction might get some good stats that make sense, Ward adds a new character or unit to one up that.

It's guys like Mephiston and oddballs like the Sanguinor.

As insectum7 briefly touched upon, the characters aren't all that crazy either (ruleswise). while I personally believe the captain/chapter master could be dropped a statpoint or two, the HQ SCs all have normal HQ stats, except for Cassius with his +2T and Calgar with his +1W and +1A(neither of which is really all that crazy).

The odd exception is really Tellion who's above the named HQs in BS and just slightly behind in WS (he's the scout dude, for those who don't know).

As for Mephiston and Sanguinor, those guys are from the Blood Angel codex, not the standard Space Marine one(and I have no intention of ever defending that thing).

Once again, what are these stats to stuff like Straken(Guard, +1WS, +3S, +1T, +2SV) or the Swarmlord(Tyranid, ain't got the exact stats on me, sorry)

My point stands. Ward is horrible with fluff, but his rules tend to work. Crudface has decent fluff (or possibly worse if the 'nid codex is anything to go by) but horrible rules.

ashendant
22-02-2011, 18:34
Seing as a mortal wouldn't be able to survive in the warp as it contains no matter, no oxygen and what not, I just don't see how anything this Grand Master managed to achieve in the realm of the warp was anything more than:
By your logic demons shouldn't be able to survive the Matterium because there aren't vast amounts of warp energy, but they form material bodies when they do

qwertywraith
22-02-2011, 18:38
The Grey Knight fluff is a crime against 40K. Besides the insane over the top nature of the writing, it's the name dropping.

Can you imagine what the next chaos codex would be like if Matt Ward wrote it?

"...and then Huron punched Leman Russ so hard he flew backwards topling over Marneus Calgar, and Vulkan HeStan! He moved in for the kill but INSERT DEUS EX MACHINA."

"Fabius Bile crept up to the body of Roboute Guilliman. He pulled out a DEUS EX MACHINEA magic needle that could extract his blood even though he was in stasis. He smiled eviley, because he was evil. He was the most evil and impure man ever. Then he pissed on a door-handle, begginning a feud with the Ultramarines that continues to this day."

"Chet Awesomelaser is magic and shows up anytime you say his name on a battlefield 3 times because of the warp (DEUS EX MACHINA). Also, the power of his personality creates beer all around him. One time he got lost in the Rock for a billion years and he destroyed a ton of watchers and servitors, but nobody cares about those except Dominius Forgarandomsyllable who is in charge of inventory and had to order more. Maybe he arm-wrestled Azrael bare-handed while Azrael wore a power fist and Chet still won. He totally knows Cypher. WS 6 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 A 4 I 5 LD 10. 3+. Special rule: His strength is 10, not 5."

chriscrowing
22-02-2011, 18:41
;5332278']For gameplay reasons alone that is just a stupid idea. Who is gonna go play against Chaos if they can field a demon that requires a full army to bring down? For that matter, who is going to play against any army that has a unit or units that require such insane amount of firepower to kill, and who can, easily, eat up your army if you dont deal with them. Besides, it beats the whole spirit of the game. There should always be a little chance that the humble Space Marine sergeant with powerfist kills a greater demon after it murdered the rest of the Tactical squad. Why should only special characters be able to kill special characters? Why cant a normal human become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

Sure, I like the idea of having powerful units that can do a whole lot of damage. But no unit should ever be powerful enough to require a whole army to take down.

I agree though, if the stories from the leaked codex are true, it sounds like a ridiculous background. Grey Knights are powerful sure, but so far they have always died themselves after banishing some demon. That shouldnt change.

OK, I'll take the idea that once in a thousand games, the veteran sargeant SHOULD be able to behead the Bloodthirster who has slaughtered his squad - but you need to have the 999 other times where the Bloodthirster uses him as a toothpick in order to make that awesome heroism...well, awesome heroism. If it happens in one in five games...it's just too often to matter.

The balance has to be kept by points value - Greater Daemons should cost a LOT, meaing that it has to be a massive game to feature more than one. Likewise, greater daemons aren't in vehicles and are predominantly close combat units which means their impact on the game limited. Keep your distance, shoot them up.

In short, it doesn't take a whole army to deal with one model, but the precense of that model will seriously affect the tactics of both sides - the Chaos player will have a smaller force on account of chosing to take a daemon instead of a whole squad of Chaos marines or a few dozen cultists, while the not-Chaos player will be keen to tie-down/avoid the massive unit, rather than engage on fairer terms as they might do to a less powerful, but more numerous foe.

It is always a tactical choice to NOT engage a foe, and you should not judge the opposition on what this or that model might do - but if your opponent has sunk a chunk of their points allocation on one model, it limts their options and adds vulnerabilitues which might not have been the case otherwise.

Swings and roundabouts - that's how the points system should keep 40k FAIR.

Basically, a standard daemon should beat the average IG 9 times out of ten, and the average space marine about 4 times in 5.

A greater daemon should be able to smash tanks, and while it is killable on the tabletop, it should usually leave a small mountain of dead around it.

Given that this whole topic is based on the power balance between Grey Knights and Daemons, I think a balance which would be right is about this...

Single Grey Knight = standard daemon (Bloodletter, Daemonette)

Basically, if you played these guys against each other 100 times on a flat table, one on one, the results should come out pretty 50/50.

Sqaud of Grey Knights = Greater Daemon

Five Grey Knights, should represent a significant points sink for the Power armour player, and while they are Terminators+1 against other foes, their psychic weaponry and wards makes them extra deadly againt Daemons. This means that a squad of GK should be able to banish a GD roughly half the time - but the loss of the Greater Daemon should usually accompany the deaths of at least three and sometimes all the Grey Knights.

Grey Knights Special Characer = 1/2 a Greater Dameon
Basically, I think that a GK special characetr should be able to single-handedly banish a GD about one time in 3. Back him up with a squad and that becomes 2 times in 3. If the Greater Deamon is accompanied by a squad of lesser daemons, then that becomes 50/50 again.

and all the time were looking at this heavyweight bout between the GK and daemons - what the hell is happening on the rest of the table top, where the 'other' squad of Grey Knights is being faced down by three times as many Chaos Marines or a hundred cultists.

You see what I mean?

Basically, I think that the Grey Knights, as humanity's ultimate anti-daemon champions should definately earn respect (I know, not the right word) from the daemons they face, and be perfectly capable of banishing them in the material realm given luck and the correct application of force/numbers etc.

But it should take effort, sacrifice and not be a sure thing - else all is worthless.

Endobai
22-02-2011, 18:44
Reading this thread, and countless others, it is quite clear that Matt Wards' work is single-handedly degrading the overall quality of our hobby. Now my query is: Why has there been no petition opposing him to stop writing codex's? I know, initially that does sound rather cruel, but his work is quite clearly making the majority of us unhappy. The man's work is like a cancer....at first it was the 5Th edition space marine codex but now....Other armies have fallen victim to his degenerate writing. How long is it, before new authors who will write for GW, start to deem his work to be the "foundation" of comprehending the universe? It's only a matter of time before his work starts to corrupt the very fabric of 40k we all know and love-and change it for the worse!Well I say...like a a cancer, he must be purged, quickly. Before his bias damages any more of our beloved universe. I say "no more" to characters who possess flawless traits. I say "NO MORE" to Matt Ward! Whose with me....?

Either that, or just make him stick to TT rules...

Nightbringer


I was hesitant with such ideas, but it changed.


I will support any petition to stop this man from writing fluff and in general to give this task to people who know how to do it. Better Horus Heresy novels should be seen as something to follow.

What is happening recently (except in Dark Eldar Codex) turns the background of the game into a grotesque parody which in the end might destroy the game.

I hope that my army (the Eldar) is safe from this scourge - I am betting on work of all previous authors and nowadays Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin, but others?

carnegiebear
22-02-2011, 18:46
The Grey Knight fluff is a crime against 40K. Besides the insane over the top nature of the writing, it's the name dropping.

Can you imagine what the next chaos codex would be like if Matt Ward wrote it?

"...and then Huron punched Leman Russ so hard he flew backwards topling over Marneus Calgar, and Vulkan HeStan! He moved in for the kill but INSERT DEUS EX MACHINA."

"Fabius Bile crept up to the body of Roboute Guilliman. He pulled out a DEUS EX MACHINEA magic needle that could extract his blood even though he was in stasis. He smiled eviley, because he was evil. He was the most evil and impure man ever. Then he pissed on a door-handle, begginning a feud with the Ultramarines that continues to this day."

"Chet Awesomelaser is magic and shows up anytime you say his name on a battlefield 3 times because of the warp (DEUS EX MACHINA). Also, the power of his personality creates beer all around him. One time he got lost in the Rock for a billion years and he destroyed a ton of watchers and servitors, but nobody cares about those except Dominius Forgarandomsyllable who is in charge of inventory and had to order more. Maybe he arm-wrestled Azrael bare-handed while Azrael wore a power fist and Chet still won. He totally knows Cypher. WS 6 BS 5 S 5 T 4 W 3 A 4 I 5 LD 10. 3+. Special rule: His strength is 10, not 5."

:shifty: imagine if he lurked on warseer..... he could be taking notes now :cries: somebody stop him!!!

Korraz
22-02-2011, 18:56
By your logic demons shouldn't be able to survive the Matterium because there aren't vast amounts of warp energy, but they form material bodies when they do

Hey, did'cha know? A demon desintegrates without a vessel or enough warp energy to create a maniphestation! Know who would have thought that?
Draigo is actually in the warp with his actual physical body. He doesn't even need a Gellar Field, he is just THAT awesome!

Col. Tartleton
22-02-2011, 20:48
On the optimistic side, HOLY CRAP OUR REAL LIVES ARE RUINED!

Now I'll have to write Warcraft Fan Fiction... *shudders*

Or bathe! Or talk to women. Or only paint the models and play the game. Or only paint the models since the game isn't really worth it without the awesome stories... Gah even Matt's Wards cannot stop the nerdrage implosion.

Honestly, do people remember when Chaos Space Marines was the sorriest codex purely based off of a lack of options and the occasional wince worthy phrase in the codex like "let no good deed go unpunished". It was a different time...

Nazguire
22-02-2011, 22:40
What is happening recently (except in Dark Eldar Codex) turns the background of the game into a grotesque parody which in the end might destroy the game.


Seriously?:eyebrows:

The models are still pretty cool. I dislike the new background but quite honestly the Black Library makes the majority of the background now and it's somewhat good stuff, particularly the Horus Heresy novels.

We don't need to go overboard.

Lord_Crull
22-02-2011, 23:02
Cadians- ravaged blah blah blah but in the end Cadia is still standing and still produces titanic amounts of guardsmen to ship around the galaxy, it's more a show of "wow, Cadians are badass!" than "good job abaddon, Creed didn't kill you".


Not really. A tthe moment Cadia is not shipping out titanic amounts of Guardsmen. At the moment Creed is barly handing on to the remaining 30% of Cadia that is not Abaddons. Creed certainly has not won.

But as for your main point........



That's Abaddon's problem. When Calgar is killing Night Lords, I've heard of Night Lords, people play Night Lords, that gives Calgar's victory some tangibility.

When Abaddon blows up 'tartanis' it just doesn't have any impact. When Abaddon conquers every other planet but Cadia, that just makes Cadians cooler and the warmaster look foolish.

as a counter-example though, look at Huron. He boarded a Space Wolf (hey, I've heard of those guys!) vessel and made the wolves surrender and join him. That single act is more incredible and has more weight than everything Abaddon has ever done. Because I know what a Space Wolf is, I've played against them, they are an actual tabletop army, they are tangible.


Actually Abaddon has won victories against named chapters. The Blood Angels at Mackan for one.

Index Astartes-Abaddon the Despoiler.


On the bloody fields of Mackan, Abaddon sought out the Blood Angels and repaid them for the part they played in the downfall of Horus. Leading a charge of berserk warriors towards the dug-in positions of the Sons of Sanguinius's heavy weapon squads, Abaddon and his warriors charged through a storm of gunfire that should surely have seen them all slain. But Abaddon clawed his way across the Blood Angels' barricades unharmed and he and his few surviving berserkers tore the beating hearts from their enemies' chests. When the inevitable counter-attack struck, the victorious Abaddon fought with such tenacity and ferocity that the Blood Angels were unable to reclaim the fallen bodies of their battle brothers. Abaddon had special reason to hate the Blood Angels - now they had one to hate him.

We agree that the Blood Angels are quite popular and well known yes?

HK-47
22-02-2011, 23:05
Seriously?:eyebrows:

The models are still pretty cool. I dislike the new background but quite honestly the Black Library makes the majority of the background now and it's somewhat good stuff, particularly the Horus Heresy novels.

We don't need to go overboard.

While some people are using this thread to vent their frustration, which is perfectly fine, I really started this thread because I genuinely feel that over the course of time the fluff in the Chaos codices, and in the main rulebook, have started to decay. A lot of people think this is true for 40k general, and I am starting to agree with them.

I think the writers of BL and GW need to come up with a fluff bible, that can sort of act as a ceiling for the craziness. This way they can allow authors to come up with new stories, but if you write something that to over the top, or to against established fluff then it can be edited.

TheSaylesMan
22-02-2011, 23:38
I know it's just beating a dead horse talking about how ridiculous Draigo is at this point (which is really saying something seeing as the codex isn't even out yet), but there are some things that really just need addressing. For instance, the idea that he is able to just WALK around the Realms of Chaos. Lets put aside the fact that he doesn't get torn apart by the raw stuff of Chaos for now. He is able to WALK AROUND in the WARP! Sorry to abuse caps lock like that, but since when has the Warp had ground? I mean, yeah, there are the occasional world that gets sucked into the Warp via Warp Storm or whatever but he wasn't on a Daemon World. He was just in the Warp. The notion that the Warp is a place like that is just stupid. Its implying that if you were to peak out the window during Warp Transit that you'd be able to pick out Slannesh's Demonnette pile and Khorne's Flesh Hound Kennel. Anyway, what was Draigo breathing!? There's no oxygen in the warp! Matter in the warp at all is a rarity. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume his power armor remained environmentally sealed the entire time (which also assumes he's one of those characters who wears a helmet at all), the powerpack on power armor doesn't last forever. Even if it did, he was metabolizing oxygen. The suit can only carry so much of that. Exactly how long was he walking around in the Warp for?

If I hear correctly, he also beat up a Bloodthirster and stole his axe to reforge his own weapon. Again, ignoring the beating up the Bloodthirster bit. How the hell could he reforge his sword? Aren't Nemesis Force Weapons the rarest of the rare and nigh impossible to create? Is he somehow also a Tech-Marine on top of being a Grandmaster? If he did somehow have the ability to recreate a Nemesis Force Weapon in the field with no advanced tools to do it with, with what materials did he do it from? A Bloodthirster's axe? We've already been over the whole "matter in the warp is a rarity" thing. Its impossible! The guy just casually breaks so many seemingly obvious little rules about the universe.

I have to agree with notion that the Chaos fluff is degrading. It used to be that the Warp and the Realms of Chaos were a primordial place beyond the comprehension of mortal minds. In that story, its being portrayed like Mount Olympus or something. Where the gods are actual people you can walk up to and interact with. I went from DnD to 40k and was glad that the Gods weren't treated as such mundane things. Now I'm kinda upset that some of the cool bits of the setting are getting watered down.

Hellebore
23-02-2011, 00:02
Love to see Draigo's stats in and out of the warp:

In the warp - his patron god Mah'twarrd encompasses him in an ego bubble of awesomeness. See codex grey knights for stats.

In realspace - all the imaginary crap that sustained him disappears and he is seen for what he is, stick thin, 5 feet tall and smelling of BO wearing tinfoil armour he made in his mum's basement shouting "Pew pew! I'm a grey knight! (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/george-lucas-at-the-convention.html) I'm the bestest at everything, including the stuff I'm not!" His sword disappears when it remembers that it is in fact made from IMAGINATION and has no physical component.

I can see it now, he comes running out of a warp portal and, like Wile. E. Coyote realising he's standing on thin air, get's an attack of reality. :cool:

EDIT: Maybe that's why Draigo stays in the warp, kept cozy and warm wrapped in his ego bubble where he doesn't have to face reality...

Hellebore

Nazguire
23-02-2011, 00:04
While some people are using this thread to vent their frustration, which is perfectly fine, I really started this thread because I genuinely feel that over the course of time the fluff in the Chaos codices, and in the main rulebook, have started to decay. A lot of people think this is true for 40k general, and I am starting to agree with them.

I think the writers of BL and GW need to come up with a fluff bible, that can sort of act as a ceiling for the craziness. This way they can allow authors to come up with new stories, but if you write something that to over the top, or to against established fluff then it can be edited.

Apparently the BL at least already do that. Strict editing on the background. Obviously doesn't apply to the Codexes or if it does, the grand old excuse of 'everything you have been told is a lie' that GW used on the BL forums is still in effect.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge on GW's IP can elaborate or clarify...

Hellebore
23-02-2011, 00:09
I am in agreement entirely.

In another thread about changing the c'tan, I said that they didn't need to be 'Lovecraftian horrors' because the Warp was, is and has always been the go to theme for that.

Yet as time goes on it is relegated more and more to moustache twirling eeevilll and the depth of the original concept (almost Nietzchean in concept) is being lost entirely.

It used to be that imperial guard were executed after fighting chaos whilst marines were mind scrubbed, because the risk of contamination and corruption was so high. Now it's fine if someone wanders through the warp breathing in warp energy for the lolz...

Chaos is no longer described in the eldritch unbeateable horror it was originally envisioned. But then, 40k itself isn't really being described the way it originally was either...

Hellebore

abasio
23-02-2011, 01:16
By your logic demons shouldn't be able to survive the Matterium because there aren't vast amounts of warp energy, but they form material bodies when they do

Well it takes an enormous amount of energy for them to manifest at all and when they do, they have a corporeal body with which to stand on the ground. Did this Draigo change his corporeal form to an ethereal warp form now? He just gets more and more awesome :)

Hellebore
23-02-2011, 01:27
Daemons can remain in realspace longer if they possess a realspace object, like a body or a vehicle. Wraithbone can allow this indefinitely.

Maybe draigo possessed a daemon with his realspace body to allow him to exist in the warp....:cries:

Hellebore

TheRatsInTheWalls
23-02-2011, 01:50
I'm pretty sure there is fluff in Fantasy about people walking bodily into the Realm of Chaos, where they usually go mad and get corrupt, but they certainly don't die. It is perhaps similarly possible for 40k (although I also seem to remember something about ships getting torn up in the warp so maybe not).

Mannimarco
23-02-2011, 02:04
Thats different.

The RoC in fantasy is a physical place that is saturated by Chaos (much like the EoT and its daemon worlds in 40k) There is ground there, there are rocks and plants and people and animals all infused with the warping power of Chaos but the domain of the Gods is somthing else altogether, you wont just be wandering around in the EoT and find Nurgles Garden or Khornes throne room any more so than you could get in a plane, fly up in the sky and look out the window to see the pearly gates and God.

traeplien
23-02-2011, 02:55
If material objects being present in the warp is physically impossible, how does warp travel work? Do astropaths and navigators surround the ship with psychic shielding that protects it from warp-energy? Because then it's no far leap to think that Draigo could project such a field around himself. I imagine a full cruiser, or heaven forbid, a battle barge would be MUCH tougher to "shield" in such a manner than a single person, especially when considering how powerful that person's psychic ability is supposed to be.

Or, perhaps it's entirely possible for physical objects to exist in the warp without being torn apart. Which fits the idea of Warp travel much better in my opinion. And, also kinda undermines the idea that "when stuff comes in the warp, the gods don't like it, so it goes squish." Again, is the astropath or navigator preventing that? See previous argument.

Frankly, this is nothing new. I actually think it makes for a great story about a tragic hero. Whether it's accurate or hyperbole is irrelevant, it is nonetheless a very heroic story. It's the ultimate example of a man "behind enemy lines", except enemy lines in 40k happen to be really, really scary. Fantasy has seen this before, Oxyotl in the Lizardmen army book was taken into the realm of chaos, which is described as so horrible he refuses to speak of it. He stealths around and can't even be FOUND by the chaos gods, kills some demons, and escapes, uncorrupted.

I dunno, that's a really well written story too, partially because it debunks the "omg chaoz is supah-awsum, it can't be beet and doeznt mattur how hard u try itz gunna win in the end becuz itz awesum and corrupts evrything!!!1111one111!!eleven!"


And no, that's not aimed at anyone here, I KNOW people who feel that way. :eyebrows:


Seriously though, an unbeatable enemy is not fun. An enemy that can be beaten, but only be sheer force of will and incredible effort is much more interesting. Nothing in Draigo's fluff implies his actions were easy. Just futile :evilgrin:

Lord-Caerolion
23-02-2011, 03:45
If material objects being present in the warp is physically impossible, how does warp travel work? Do astropaths and navigators surround the ship with psychic shielding that protects it from warp-energy? Because then it's no far leap to think that Draigo could project such a field around himself. I imagine a full cruiser, or heaven forbid, a battle barge would be MUCH tougher to "shield" in such a manner than a single person, especially when considering how powerful that person's psychic ability is supposed to be.
Yep, there's the Gellar Field, a shield projected around every ship during Warp travel, to create a "bubble of reality" to prevent the raw warp energy from tearing it apart. These can't be created small enough to be man-sized (otherwise Terminators would have them) and even if they are, their shield is fragile and requires constant monitoring to make sure it doesn't burst and get the ship torn apart. Also, they're created mechanically, not by psykers.


Or, perhaps it's entirely possible for physical objects to exist in the warp without being torn apart. Which fits the idea of Warp travel much better in my opinion. And, also kinda undermines the idea that "when stuff comes in the warp, the gods don't like it, so it goes squish." Again, is the astropath or navigator preventing that? See previous argument.
Nope, see above.


Frankly, this is nothing new. I actually think it makes for a great story about a tragic hero. Whether it's accurate or hyperbole is irrelevant, it is nonetheless a very heroic story. It's the ultimate example of a man "behind enemy lines", except enemy lines in 40k happen to be really, really scary. Fantasy has seen this before, Oxyotl in the Lizardmen army book was taken into the realm of chaos, which is described as so horrible he refuses to speak of it. He stealths around and can't even be FOUND by the chaos gods, kills some demons, and escapes, uncorrupted.
What's tragic about it? This Grey Knight gets to spend eternity hacking down daemons, so much so that they're actually running away from him, while he suffers no negative consequences whatsoever? That's pretty much the exact opposite of tragic. Hell, it's basically Valhalla for the Grey Knights.
It's also not heroic because the guy's doing all this without breaking a sweat. There's no risk of defeat, no possibility of failure, only Marty Stu wandering around the Warp, killing everything he finds. Someone isn't heroic for beating up a kid, because there was pretty much no chance of the kid winning. This is the 40k equivalent of that. He's not being challenged, he's not constantly fighting for survival, he's waltzing around the Warp, casually slaughtering anything he finds.


I dunno, that's a really well written story too, partially because it debunks the "omg chaoz is supah-awsum, it can't be beet and doeznt mattur how hard u try itz gunna win in the end becuz itz awesum and corrupts evrything!!!1111one111!!eleven!"
Yes, the threat that is constantly stated to be eternal and the biggest threat to humanity. Now, it's being beaten by a single guy.



Seriously though, an unbeatable enemy is not fun. An enemy that can be beaten, but only be sheer force of will and incredible effort is much more interesting. Nothing in Draigo's fluff implies his actions were easy. Just futile :evilgrin:

And Draigo's fluff doesn't seem to make him an "unbeatable enemy" in itself? This guy is attacking the Chaos Gods themselves, and he's not being beaten. He's burning Nurgle, smashing down Tzeentch, and going on a general killing spree, with nothing the Chaos Gods can throw at him managing to beat him, and he's not an unbeatable enemy?

So in other words, you complain because the 40k equivalent of Cthulhu and the other abominations are unbeatable enemies, because they're eternal, yet a single Grey Knight who's able to bitch-slap each of those Cthulhu's in the face and calmly walk away, killing his entire family and burning down the house on the way out, that's perfectly acceptable?
Dude, the Primarchs, hell even the Emperor himself wasn't capable of doing what this guy is doing. To the Emperor, Chaos was actually still a threat. To Draigo, Chaos is something there for him to pass time stabbing repeatedly in the face, probably before he walks off to take of the Hive Mind of the Tyranids single-handedly.
If you can't see a problem with a single character removing the threat from one of the most powerful forces in the galaxy, one single man with some geneseed, some armour, a sword and some psychic protection, then you really need to check your perspective.

HK-47
23-02-2011, 03:59
If material objects being present in the warp is physically impossible, how does warp travel work? Do astropaths and navigators surround the ship with psychic shielding that protects it from warp-energy? Because then it's no far leap to think that Draigo could project such a field around himself. I imagine a full cruiser, or heaven forbid, a battle barge would be MUCH tougher to "shield" in such a manner than a single person, especially when considering how powerful that person's psychic ability is supposed to be.

Or, perhaps it's entirely possible for physical objects to exist in the warp without being torn apart. Which fits the idea of Warp travel much better in my opinion. And, also kinda undermines the idea that "when stuff comes in the warp, the gods don't like it, so it goes squish." Again, is the astropath or navigator preventing that? See previous argument.

Frankly, this is nothing new. I actually think it makes for a great story about a tragic hero. Whether it's accurate or hyperbole is irrelevant, it is nonetheless a very heroic story. It's the ultimate example of a man "behind enemy lines", except enemy lines in 40k happen to be really, really scary. Fantasy has seen this before, Oxyotl in the Lizardmen army book was taken into the realm of chaos, which is described as so horrible he refuses to speak of it. He stealths around and can't even be FOUND by the chaos gods, kills some demons, and escapes, uncorrupted.

I dunno, that's a really well written story too, partially because it debunks the "omg chaoz is supah-awsum, it can't be beet and doeznt mattur how hard u try itz gunna win in the end becuz itz awesum and corrupts evrything!!!1111one111!!eleven!"


And no, that's not aimed at anyone here, I KNOW people who feel that way. :eyebrows:


Seriously though, an unbeatable enemy is not fun. An enemy that can be beaten, but only be sheer force of will and incredible effort is much more interesting. Nothing in Draigo's fluff implies his actions were easy. Just futile :evilgrin:

I have two things to say to this, one Imperial Warp travel works by using Gellar fields which surround the ship in a bubble of "real space" that keeps the warp from entering the ship, this is a piece of technology connected to the warp drive. If the Gellar field fail then the ship is almost immediately swamped by daemons, navigation is done with Navigators who have the ability to stare into the warp without going insane. They have a third eye that lets them see Astronomican in the warp and use it as a light house to guide the ship through.

Also as Mannimarco stated earlier the RoC in fantasy is not the same as the warp of 40k. The RoC of fantasy is basically the North Pole, Oxyotl basically get transported their when the spell Slann backfired, he never went into the Chaos gate or he never would have made it back, since we would have been sent to another planet or dimension.

Lord-Caerolion said what I was going to say so I'm just going to put up these links so you can look up Gellar fields and warp travel.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_jump
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_drive
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Navigator

bruceadsero
23-02-2011, 05:39
Well to be fair Chaos has its share of WTF moments. Like when ten thousand or so word bearers were able to wipe out a system with billions of guards and support from several hundred White Consuls. I mean honestly...... ten billion on Boros Prime alone. Besides Chaos also has a knack for corrupting every planetary governor and his brother from Segmentum Solar to Ultramar and no one ever seems to catch up. Lets not forget about Thontius in Ravenor who could evidently cripple an entire sector just by screwing with a few people in the bar.

Nazrax
23-02-2011, 06:10
@traeplien, while I respect your opinion and won't say your wrong, I can't help but wonder why you think the GK fluff(Draigo in particular) is so great? How does it add to the grimdark setting?

Lord-Caerolion
23-02-2011, 06:48
Well to be fair Chaos has its share of WTF moments. Like when ten thousand or so word bearers were able to wipe out a system with billions of guards and support from several hundred White Consuls. I mean honestly...... ten billion on Boros Prime alone.
Haven't read that, so I can't comment on it.

Besides Chaos also has a knack for corrupting every planetary governor and his brother from Segmentum Solar to Ultramar and no one ever seems to catch up.
Wait, you mean the thing that is such a threat because it can corrupt anyone... corrupts people? Funnily enough the people who turn to Chaos are the ones either with ambition and power (because they want more) or ambition and no power (because they want more). Planetary Governors fit soundly into the first category, as a whole. They're also bored, and usually felt abandoned by the wider Imperium.

Lets not forget about Thontius in Ravenor who could evidently cripple an entire sector just by screwing with a few people in the bar.
Yes, because killing very high-ranking Administratum officials has no side-effect whatsoever... Sending in armies to kill lots of people isn't the only way to stop a regime. Often, simply killing a single figure can do just as much, if not more damage in the long run. Progena-guy just understands that fact. Hell, the Imperium does it all the time with the deployment of Assassinorum operatives.

While Chaos may have a few WTF moments, they are few and far between. Matt Ward seems to have a personal competition, trying to find out how many he can cram into a single codex. So until we get "Chaos Lord Kittenkiller of the Black Legion managed to land on Terra, and proceeded to go around slaughtering every pilgrim and official in his way, and even the Custodes are too scared to fight him", the Imperium is definitely ahead in stupidly over-powered fluff.

Hellebore
23-02-2011, 07:00
Yes, because killing very high-ranking Administratum officials has no side-effect whatsoever... Sending in armies to kill lots of people isn't the only way to stop a regime. Often, simply killing a single figure can do just as much, if not more damage in the long run. Progena-guy just understands that fact. Hell, the Imperium does it all the time with the deployment of Assassinorum operatives.


This is pretty much the modus operandi of the Vindicare assassin temple. Kill one key figure and watch the whole thing fall apart.

But I suppose it's ok if it works for Vindicares, they're Imperial agents and awesome yo.

Hellebore

HK-47
23-02-2011, 07:06
Haven't read that, so I can't comment on it.


*Spoilers Ahead!*

It's from Dark Creed the final book in Anthony Reynolds Word Bearer trilogy, and to be honest they are not Anthony Reynolds best work, thought they are very entertaining. All three books have :wtf: moments, like in the second book where a Dark Apostle breaks out of a Dark Eldar ship by summoning a bunch of Daemonettes. I know it doesn't sound so crazy but the way he did it was a little weird, and I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Also to be far the Word Bearers end up losing, do to infighting and a Necron fleet showing up and kicking the crap out of them.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Dark-Creed.html

Lord-Caerolion
23-02-2011, 07:48
This is pretty much the modus operandi of the Vindicare assassin temple. Kill one key figure and watch the whole thing fall apart.

But I suppose it's ok if it works for Vindicares, they're Imperial agents and awesome yo.

Hellebore

It's also the modus operandii of the Callidus, Venenum, arguably Culexus and technically the Vanus. In fact, the only Temple that doesn't follow that method is the Eversor, and that's because they're a walking Exterminatus device rather than an assassin, really.

To put it another way, if you have a vial of a toxin/virus/whatever, and are put in a room with high-ranking officials, and can't think of a way to destabilise the government, then there's something wrong with you.

As you said though, we can't have non-Imperials capable of doing what the Imperium does. That would make them overpowered and be over the top... /sarcasm

Kal Taron
23-02-2011, 11:54
I need to get some sleep soon but I just wanted to say two things:

1)Eldrad Ulthran is not an individual. It is a title. It means eldest of Ulthwé.
There will always be an Eldrad as long as Ulthwé exists. Also, like an Exarch, he is immortal. If someone finds his armour he can be revived.


That it's a title is possible but never said outright. I too like to believe that it is that way because it makes more sense with the fact that Eldrad at the same time warned the Emperor and has held his position for several hundreds of years.
But where did you get the idea that he is an immortal armour like an Exarch? Besides only Phoenix Lords work that way. Normal Exarchs may be a gestalt conciousness but normally the most recent donor is dominant. PLs are exceptional because with them the first one dominates.
Farseers on the other hand are normally laid to rest in the Crystal Dome, turn into crystaline statues and move into the Infinity Circuit. From there they commune with their living peers or can even go into Spirit Stones to advise them more directly.

ashendant
23-02-2011, 12:17
@traeplien, while I respect your opinion and won't say your wrong, I can't help but wonder why you think the GK fluff(Draigo in particular) is so great? How does it add to the grimdark setting?

By making chaos suffering from Grimdark to, it's one of the things i dislike, the "good" guys always in near end apocalypse setting, the "bad" guys are like they never suffer, i want everyone to suffer from the grimdark .

Lord-Caerolion
23-02-2011, 12:25
By making chaos suffering from Grimdark to, it's one of the things i dislike, the "good" guys always in near end apocalypse setting, the "bad" guys are like they never suffer, i want everyone to suffer from the grimdark .

We have to put up with fighting Marneus Calgar! Haven't we suffered enough?:p

Poseidal
23-02-2011, 12:40
The 'bad' guys suffer from the nature of Chaos. In the end, their power is fleeting, and they'll lose all individuality and freedom to natural forces (the Chaos powers) or be spawned.

It's better to view Chaos (as in Warp Chaos) as a 'natural force' than moustache twirling bad guys. The 'bad guys' are the Chaos Space Marines or forces who put their lot in these powers who will ultimately pay the price.

Lupe
23-02-2011, 12:49
By making chaos suffering from Grimdark to, it's one of the things i dislike, the "good" guys always in near end apocalypse setting, the "bad" guys are like they never suffer, i want everyone to suffer from the grimdark .

I think there are better ways to have Chaos suffer from 'grimdark'.

Skalathrax; Ahriman's Rubric; Fulgrim's sword; crazed dreadnoughts; insanity; attrition; the constant threat of a fate worse than death... and that's just off the top of my head...

Chiara
23-02-2011, 14:27
Chaos is suffering grimdark. It was taken out of the current codex and made Spikey-Marines with a slight touch of Chaos.

I think GW is trying hard to pull back from the 13th Crusade and bring the Imperium some 'light' to its failing Grimdark. However, this is not the case. Half the reason I play 40K is because in almost any scenerio, each individual race can win 'the game'. This is how GW needs to rectify the fluff.

Not make each race the said codex of the month's whipping child, but to add the slight idea of hope within the codex. The Eldar are forming their own new god with all the collected souls within Craftworlds, the Dark Eldar are growing in numbers and prospering, the Tyranid Hive Mind is creating new methods and experimental 'bugs' to counter the Imperium and other races' tactics, etc.

This idea of adding hope or the possible route of victory each race 'has' then it could be countered with naysaying and how the races actually fair against each other. Like have a few races be 'nemisis' while other races are not wholly considered a direct threat. I would imagine Tau/Eldar relations to be stronger then Tau/Human or Human/Eldar relations.

Ghal Maraz
23-02-2011, 16:38
That it's a title is possible but never said outright. I too like to believe that it is that way because it makes more sense with the fact that Eldrad at the same time warned the Emperor and has held his position for several hundreds of years.
But where did you get the idea that he is an immortal armour like an Exarch? Besides only Phoenix Lords work that way. Normal Exarchs may be a gestalt conciousness but normally the most recent donor is dominant. PLs are exceptional because with them the first one dominates.
Farseers on the other hand are normally laid to rest in the Crystal Dome, turn into crystaline statues and move into the Infinity Circuit. From there they commune with their living peers or can even go into Spirit Stones to advise them more directly.


Ulthran actually means "The foremost of Ulthwè", not "The ancient of...".:)
Eldrad is his name.
And he is so living because he is (was) the oldest (and wiser and more powerful) living Farseer of the most psychic active Craftworld of all Eldardom (if such a word do exist!).
And all Eldar, except in cases of violent deaths, are naturally very long living.

Challenge Accepted
23-02-2011, 19:16
*Spoilers Ahead!*

It's from Dark Creed the final book in Anthony Reynolds Word Bearer trilogy, and to be honest they are not Anthony Reynolds best work, thought they are very entertaining. All three books have :wtf: moments, like in the second book where a Dark Apostle breaks out of a Dark Eldar ship by summoning a bunch of Daemonettes. I know it doesn't sound so crazy but the way he did it was a little weird, and I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Also to be far the Word Bearers end up losing, do to infighting and a Necron fleet showing up and kicking the crap out of them.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Dark-Creed.html

The books were entertaining, definitely.

They were a little absurd at times though. Like when, as you mentioned, Marduk summons Daemonettes onto a Dark Eldar ship after he's been possessed by what seems to be Slaanesh herself.. yep..

That trilogy definitely reads as Chaos war-porn.

Lupe
23-02-2011, 19:50
That trilogy definitely reads as Chaos war-porn.

To be fair, that's a nice break from all the Imperial flavored bolter-porn... And as far as bolter-porn goes, it wasn't half bad...

orz192
23-02-2011, 20:07
Please don't roast me for this, but haven't imperial space marines gone into the eye of terror and not been corrupted? The eye of terror is supposed to be a warp space/material world overlap I guess/:

With all fairness he didn't attack Slaanesh or Tzeentch themselves, he attacked their greater daemons. His back story is really over the top I'll agree but doesn't it also mention that the Chaos gods might be playing with him? Chaos is cool, I think the Thousand Sons ROCK! But isn't this kind of a case of "nerd" rage?

I want the stats for Greater Daemons to be mega-upped in a new chaos space marine codex, and the same with the Eldar Avatar.

This is my opinion please don't take extreme offense.

Challenge Accepted
23-02-2011, 20:07
To be fair, that's a nice break from all the Imperial flavored bolter-porn... And as far as bolter-porn goes, it wasn't half bad...

Imperium may have the majority, but Chaos tends to get the better quality. So I'm not sure what the complaints are about.

You guys get works like Lord of the Night, Soul Hunter, Storm of Iron and the Dark trilogy. Whereas we get Brothers of the Snake, Sons of Dorn and the Last Chancers. Yes, we get some nice works too, like Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Helsreach, however, our "jewels" are few and far between.

I'd be more than willing to trade quantity for quality. ;)

Shamana
23-02-2011, 20:20
We have to put up with fighting Marneus Calgar! Haven't we suffered enough?:p

So do... Tyrannids, Eldar, Orks, Tau, am I forgetting someone here?

BTW, I'm kinda pissed at how EoT ended for Ahriman. His plotline was almost universally dumped by Chaos players afaik, he got booted out of the webway which he used DE support to enter (about as risky a proposition as one could get) and he gets... reunited with Magnus, apparently? WTH?

Lastie
23-02-2011, 21:10
... reunited with Magnus, apparently? WTH?

What? Ending that 10,000-year old break-up in Chaos' most classic bromance isn't a good end? :p

Shamana
23-02-2011, 21:53
Considering how his high-risk adventure in the webway ended? Kinda too good of an end.

Eldrad, one of the biggest manipulative bastards of a race of manipulative bastards, essentially gets sacrificed, for the greater good of the Imperium. Ahriman gets ditched by his own factions' players (shows how much they care) and gets the good ending. It's like GW wanted to give him a push no matter what happens - like they had the good ending preset for him and didn't expect Chaos players choosing the freaking CADIA over him.

Yeah, it could be an elaborate Tzeentchian scheme, but it felt like disregarding the player efforts, both eldar and chaos.

Obrimos
23-02-2011, 23:57
@Gal Maraz:
Dunno about the English translation. I only have a German 2nd. Edition Codex Eldar.
And it is stated there, that his name means "eldest/oldest of Ulthwé".
The article doesn't explicitly state that Eldrad is his personal name, so I think both words form the meaning.
It's impossible for me to even think the name Taldeer Ulthran witout a getting a migraine if she was to become the new leader of Ulthwé.

@Kal Taron:

Farseers compare to Exarchs in respect to being imprisoned on their path.
A farseer relates to a warlock like an exarch to an aspect warrior.
Yet, I have to admit that the fluff is a little inconsistent there.
Apparently, farseers, despite being prisoners on their path retain compatibilty with the infinity circuit, which is kinda odd.
Also, their psychic powers are completely different from those of warlocks, warlocks being more warlike and farseers more subtle and calm, which is the second oddity.
Their bodies crystallizing is a nice feature but without further effect, so it doesn't really matter.

Thus, to me, the crystal dome of farseers is a kind of infinity circuit of its own which is indeed separate from the one the other Eldar go to. It's sort of their own personal think-tank including the souls of the ancient dead farseers whose souls are unable to do anything but ponder the fate of all things.
This is of course no official fluff but it makes sense to me since I reckon the Eldar in general keep "trapped minds" out of their little paradise.

Oh, and if someone finds Eldrads soulstone they can reembed him at least.
Or he ends up as a guidestone for the next Eldrad, so no harm done.
The only problem would be to replace the Staff of Ulthamar but I guess if someone finds his body he might find the staff, too.

At least if Ahriman didn't take it before... :shifty:
Now that would be badass!

Sry for offtopic.

Lord-Caerolion
24-02-2011, 03:12
Please don't roast me for this, but haven't imperial space marines gone into the eye of terror and not been corrupted? The eye of terror is supposed to be a warp space/material world overlap I guess/:

With all fairness he didn't attack Slaanesh or Tzeentch themselves, he attacked their greater daemons. His back story is really over the top I'll agree but doesn't it also mention that the Chaos gods might be playing with him? Chaos is cool, I think the Thousand Sons ROCK! But isn't this kind of a case of "nerd" rage?

I want the stats for Greater Daemons to be mega-upped in a new chaos space marine codex, and the same with the Eldar Avatar.

This is my opinion please don't take extreme offense.

Actually, he burned part of Nurgles Garden, and smashed part of the Crystal Labyrinth. Since the domains of each God in the Warp essentially are the God, yes, he did attack the Chaos Gods themselves, and get away pretty much unharmed. If one Marine is capable of this, why not send in 100, and raze Nurgles Garden totally, then head on to demolish all of Tzeentch's realm. Matt Ward, if you're reading this, and do what I just said, I will end you.

And while Imperial vessels have gone into the Warp, they've either been unmanned research probes, or the crew were pretty much shot upon exiting, just to be sure they didn't bring something with them.
Remember, the Imperium is willing to raze planets and destroy entire populations because of a relatively small-scale daemonic incursion, where the Materium was still almost entirely strong. Imagine their reaction after someone went into the Eye.

Mannimarco
24-02-2011, 04:02
I believe it was the inevitable city and not the labyrinth. Heres some of what we know about the city:

You cant even step towards it without it shooting off into the distance, if you get near it its because those within want you to get near it.

It can drive you mad just trying to find a way in with its doors opening and closing disappearing and reappearing at will

only the Lords of Change can pass safely through it without being warped and twisted

you can cross leagues with a single step or spend years walking an inch, its all screwed up in there

I may be misremembering some of that and confusing it with Tzeentchs own little hang out but I think thats pretty much the gist of Tzeentches domain: its a screwed up place where bad things happen. In fact all the gods domains are like this, look at the daemon codex to see just what the realms are like. You just try walking through Nurgles garden to burn it down: you wont get 5 feet without catching every single disease to have ever existed ever.

Thats not forgetting the fact that the gods domains dont actually exist as a physical manifestation (see my earlier reference to getting in a plane and flying above the clouds, you wont see heaven and the pearly gates up there though).

The gods themselves are nothing more that huge swirling vortexes of psychic energy, for you to wander around in Nurgles garden or the inevitable city then you need to be composed of energy yourself and have entered into the vortex and good luck surviving inside a sentient super vortex that doesnt like you.

Im reminded of somthing in the Seige of Vraks where the imperium sent a probe into the warp to gather intel, the crew was composed of servitors and 1 blank. This should have been all but invisible within the warp and even then contact was still lost with the ship.

So this Draigo is some kind of super psyker who is able to exist inside a sentient super vortex in a realm of beings who (and I quote the lost and the damned book) can end life on a whim without any ill effects. Of course being a super psyker composed of energy (he couldnt have had a physical body to do the stuff he does, it would need to be energy) then that would open him up to a whole host of new problems: Screamers of Tzeentch are kinnda drawn to that, Enslavers would be all over him in a heartbeat and then theres the furies who swoop down and snack on the souls that float around the warp.

Hes even better than Ang'grath! The same Ang'grath who has only been summoned 3 times in the past and laid waist to whole worlds before being banished. So yeah while Ang'grath can wipe out whole worlds he can be stopped (at great loss), Draigo on the other hand can wipe out the gods domains and cant be stopped. Who sounds more uber? Khornes ultimate bloodthirster of mass killyness and ultra stomp death and destruction who will kill whole planets but can be stopped at a great cost......or Draigo, the grey knight grand master who destroys chunks of the chaos gods realms and seems to have GOD MODE turned on.

Its actually worse than "chaos lord kittenkiller lands on terra and kills everything he sees so now everybody is scared to fight him so he just wanders around wrecking the place" because terra actually exists as a physical place. Now if kittenkiller could somehow transcend the physical body and enter somthing like the emperors mind and start wrecking up the place and nobody could stop him then we would have a decent comparison.

shadowhawk2008
24-02-2011, 05:51
I'm pretty sure there is fluff in Fantasy about people walking bodily into the Realm of Chaos, where they usually go mad and get corrupt, but they certainly don't die. It is perhaps similarly possible for 40k (although I also seem to remember something about ships getting torn up in the warp so maybe not).

The Fantasy RoC is very different from the warp of both systems where the Gods actually have their own domains. You can compare the RoC to be more like the Maelstrom and the EoT. Mortals can 'walk' and exist in both realms and over time they will be corrupted depending on various factors. Perhaps like the Chaos Warriors and the Chaos Marines these mortals choose to live in these realms and possibly were born there.

My knowledge of WHF is limited but in the Gotrek and Felix novels, the two guys go into the RoC on a quest aboard a hindenburg-ish ship and seem to suffer no ill-effects other than having to fight a mutated monster Skaven on their return journey who had been hiding on the ship all along.


Well to be fair Chaos has its share of WTF moments. Like when ten thousand or so word bearers were able to wipe out a system with billions of guards and support from several hundred White Consuls. I mean honestly...... ten billion on Boros Prime alone. Besides Chaos also has a knack for corrupting every planetary governor and his brother from Segmentum Solar to Ultramar and no one ever seems to catch up. Lets not forget about Thontius in Ravenor who could evidently cripple an entire sector just by screwing with a few people in the bar.

Carl Thonius, Ravenor's former interrogator, was not the one who was shown in that scene in the book. It was Ravenor's arch nemesis whose name escapes me at the moment. Said guy showed how he could cripple an entire sub-sector by killing off a few HIGHLY placed important individuals in the sub-sector government or by inciting revolts and such. It is pretty spot on and in no way far-fetched. Imagine what would happen to a sub-sector dominated by the Ecclesiarchy in which its ruling cardinal is offed by an assassin. Or if Warmaster Macaroth is killed in combat during the Sabbat Crusade.


Imperium may have the majority, but Chaos tends to get the better quality. So I'm not sure what the complaints are about.

You guys get works like Lord of the Night, Soul Hunter, Storm of Iron and the Dark trilogy. Whereas we get Brothers of the Snake, Sons of Dorn and the Last Chancers. Yes, we get some nice works too, like Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Helsreach, however, our "jewels" are few and far between.

Minus an odd story, Brothers of the Snake was actually good and I definitely didn't expect the ending to come full-circle. Sons of Dorn makes me regret buying it because it is just boring and at times over the top. Not to mention the ungodly amount of times that the pain-glove is mentioned or how the aspirants have this childish infatuation with hating each other but never do anything about it. That kind of a sitation was much better handled by William King in the first Ragnar novel IMO.

Iracundus
24-02-2011, 06:01
Minus an odd story, Brothers of the Snake was actually good and I definitely didn't expect the ending to come full-circle. Sons of Dorn makes me regret buying it because it is just boring and at times over the top. Not to mention the ungodly amount of times that the pain-glove is mentioned or how the aspirants have this childish infatuation with hating each other but never do anything about it. That kind of a sitation was much better handled by William King in the first Ragnar novel IMO.

Sons of Dorn really comes off as an attempt at re-writing the original Space Marine novel by Ian Watson. In that novel, there was a love/hate relationship between the three main characters, and some of the phrases from that book were recycled wholesale for Sons of Dorn.

Carlosophy
24-02-2011, 07:05
I actually quite like all this 'overpowered character' nonsense GW is currently pushing. The underlying theme of course is based on the fact that Special Characters are the focus of army lists and thus GW wants to sell more of them so it gives them a bit more pomp to make them sound cooler.

Some of it isn't that bad and actually equates to the rules. Ever seen an Avatar vs Calgar in-game? Calgar would most likely win.

Once we get the new Necron, Chaos, Tau and Dark Angels books we will see a balance of ridiculous fluff across every army because when every army is allegedly overpowered, none will be and the game will be balanced.

I fully expect this place full of complaints when The Nightbringer is shown as waving his hand and eradicating entire planets ("But he can't do that in-game!" they will cry), having the Dark Angels exterminatus imperial worlds without inquisitorial sanction, Farsight and 3 Fireknives defeating 4 companies of Ultramarines via JSJ and Abaddon back on top as best villain.

Hive Mind 33
24-02-2011, 07:20
Don't worry, once we get a new Chaos 'dex and Abbadon strangles two Avatars with his bare hands, we will have the overpoweredness


But he will be wishing to be an Ultramarine.
The Fluff will read: As Abbadon strangled the Avatars, he began to openly weep for he will never be a Ultramarine.

MvS
24-02-2011, 07:32
I fully expect this place full of complaints when The Nightbringer is shown as waving his hand and eradicating entire planets ("But he can't do that in-game!" they will cry)
I don't think the main complaint is whether or not a character can do something in the game. The problem is whether or not it makes sense for a character to do the stuff attributed to them in the background imagery.

I agree that the 40K game seems to be more special character focussed / obsessed these days - particularly Mat Ward's work.

Endobai
24-02-2011, 08:07
Once we get the new Necron, Chaos, Tau and Dark Angels books we will see a balance of ridiculous fluff across every army because when every army is allegedly overpowered, none will be and the game will be balanced.


Thank you but I am not very kee on on reading about my Ulthwe Eldar Farseer Eldarus eldarising entire chapters of Space Marines (except Ultramarines because in depths of his filthy xenos soul Eldarus always wished to become one of them) using his Eldar 'Eldarise' psychic power and killing them in hand to hand combat with his Eldar Eldarsword while writing a poem and knitting at the same time.

If 'balance' of fluff means that all armies should enjoy 'Ward treatment' then I'd like to see veteran edition of future codices where this... thing called 'fluff' is removed leaving only rules.


Thankfully I am half-certain that my Eldar will not see Mr. Ward's influence. I pity others, though.

shadowhawk2008
24-02-2011, 08:44
Sons of Dorn really comes off as an attempt at re-writing the original Space Marine novel by Ian Watson. In that novel, there was a love/hate relationship between the three main characters, and some of the phrases from that book were recycled wholesale for Sons of Dorn.

yeah that's exactly how it reads. I have never read space marine but some of the text does give the impression of having been ripped off a source without any changes at all.


I actually quite like all this 'overpowered character' nonsense GW is currently pushing. The underlying theme of course is based on the fact that Special Characters are the focus of army lists and thus GW wants to sell more of them so it gives them a bit more pomp to make them sound cooler.

Some of it isn't that bad and actually equates to the rules. Ever seen an Avatar vs Calgar in-game? Calgar would most likely win.

Once we get the new Necron, Chaos, Tau and Dark Angels books we will see a balance of ridiculous fluff across every army because when every army is allegedly overpowered, none will be and the game will be balanced.

I fully expect this place full of complaints when The Nightbringer is shown as waving his hand and eradicating entire planets ("But he can't do that in-game!" they will cry), having the Dark Angels exterminatus imperial worlds without inquisitorial sanction, Farsight and 3 Fireknives defeating 4 companies of Ultramarines via JSJ and Abaddon back on top as best villain.

the issue is characters doing something quite impossible in their fluff that just should not be possible as they don't have any justification and just a whole bunch of chaos being bullied

Lord-Caerolion
24-02-2011, 08:49
I actually quite like all this 'overpowered character' nonsense GW is currently pushing. The underlying theme of course is based on the fact that Special Characters are the focus of army lists and thus GW wants to sell more of them so it gives them a bit more pomp to make them sound cooler.

Some of it isn't that bad and actually equates to the rules. Ever seen an Avatar vs Calgar in-game? Calgar would most likely win.

Once we get the new Necron, Chaos, Tau and Dark Angels books we will see a balance of ridiculous fluff across every army because when every army is allegedly overpowered, none will be and the game will be balanced.

I fully expect this place full of complaints when The Nightbringer is shown as waving his hand and eradicating entire planets ("But he can't do that in-game!" they will cry), having the Dark Angels exterminatus imperial worlds without inquisitorial sanction, Farsight and 3 Fireknives defeating 4 companies of Ultramarines via JSJ and Abaddon back on top as best villain.

You've entirely missed the point. The problem isn't that the fluff doesn't match the tabletop, it's that the fluff is becoming pants-on-head retarded.

carnegiebear
24-02-2011, 10:02
pants-on-head retarded.

so THAT'S what Ward does when he isnt writing! who knew? :D

Easy E
24-02-2011, 12:40
Draigo enters the warp:

"I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ****!

... and I'm all outta bubble gum."

Ville
24-02-2011, 12:57
Draigo enters the warp:

"I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ****!

... and I'm all outta bubble gum."

Brilliant!:D

Or as Lionel Cosgrove attacks the zombies with a hoisted lawn mower in Peter Jackson's "Braindead":

"Party's over!"

Ivellis
24-02-2011, 12:57
Draigo enters the warp:

"I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ****!

... and I'm all outta bubble gum."

So that's why Duke Nukem Forever took so long to see release, the Duke was busy playing space marine and rampaging through the warp. (BTW, I know the line isn't original from Duke Nukem, just thought it fit)

Kal Taron
24-02-2011, 14:02
My knowledge of WHF is limited but in the Gotrek and Felix novels, the two guys go into the RoC on a quest aboard a hindenburg-ish ship and seem to suffer no ill-effects other than having to fight a mutated monster Skaven on their return journey who had been hiding on the ship all along.
Just to clarify:
It's always said in the book that what they did was exceptional and pretty much suicidal. They only managed it because
a) their ship was warded by magic
b) they brought enough supplies as everything in the wastes is tainted
c) being airborne they could ignore many of the threats wandering around on ground

To give a real life comparison. The Chaos Wastes/Eye/Maelstrom/etc are heavily radiated areas. The Realm of Chaos is more like inside a star.

Wyrmwood
24-02-2011, 14:45
So that's why Duke Nukem Forever took so long to see release, the Duke was busy playing space marine and rampaging through the warp. (BTW, I know the line isn't original from Duke Nukem, just thought it fit)

I think that it's actually used by Duke Nukem too, as a homage to the film... Or because it's badass and Duke Nukem is, well, nothing but pure misogynistic, testosterone fuelled badass.

I go where I please... And I please where I go. Half man, half animal... ALL DEAD!

But back on topic, what good does exist within the newer publishings is little more than common sense, or taking a theme and running with it. For example, the Sanguinor isn't too bad as a concept; as the psychic manifestation of the good within the Blood Angels - their hope, if you will, juxtaposed with the more tangible (possibly Khornate) taint of the Black Rage/Red Thirst. Granted, it's very in your face obvious and lacking in subtlety and it only works if you ignore everything else attached to the Sanguinor... Still, there are many, many more brainfarts than slightly interesting concepts.

All of it let down by flawed execution and Ward's name dropping idiocy, among other things like, well, just bad writing and the forced farming of inconsistent philosophies.

shadowhawk2008
24-02-2011, 15:18
Just to clarify:
It's always said in the book that what they did was exceptional and pretty much suicidal. They only managed it because
a) their ship was warded by magic
b) they brought enough supplies as everything in the wastes is tainted
c) being airborne they could ignore many of the threats wandering around on ground

To give a real life comparison. The Chaos Wastes/Eye/Maelstrom/etc are heavily radiated areas. The Realm of Chaos is more like inside a star.

Well we can consider the situation that the members of the Wolfblade, a squad of Blood Claws and Lady Gabriella of House Belisarius found themselves in the book Wolf's Honour. Gabriella takes a SW ship into the warp without the protection of the Geller Field (IIRC) and then they spend considerable time on a planet literally conjured with the raw stuff of the warp that resembles a material realm world. While Gabriella seemed to have suffered no ill-effects other than being stabbed by Madox of the 1k Sons, the most the Wolfblade suffer is heightened awareness due to the Mark of the Wulfen whereas all the Blood Claws end up turning into Wulfen themselves. Even when they lose control of their faculties an aged and legendary Wolf Lord is on hand to bring them back to their senses.

AlexHolker
24-02-2011, 15:43
Well we can consider the situation that the members of the Wolfblade, a squad of Blood Claws and Lady Gabriella of House Belisarius found themselves in the book Wolf's Honour. Gabriella takes a SW ship into the warp without the protection of the Geller Field (IIRC) and then they spend considerable time on a planet literally conjured with the raw stuff of the warp that resembles a material realm world.
If the book says what you claim it does, it does so because Lightner screwed up. Any discussion of canon in a shared universe requires the willingness to write off such failures, because there are always people like Goto, Anderson and Austen who make the setting worse with their influence.

Carlosophy
24-02-2011, 15:58
You've entirely missed the point. The problem isn't that the fluff doesn't match the tabletop, it's that the fluff is becoming pants-on-head retarded.

Ive read all the recent post-eldar codices and the only one I disliked was Blood Angels and this was for their preposterous amount of characters, Sanguinor and the terrible, terrible cover art. Their actual list was quite cool and I debated starting a flesh tearers army just to include the kick ass Seth model.

When I read the Calvatar story I didn't think it sounded ridiculous because in-game they would square up to each other. If I was an Ultramarines player Id send Calgar after the Avatar. And as an ex-Eldar player I only ever used my Avatar as a fire magnet. I never relied on him killing things because he wasn't very good at it. The idea of Fulgrim smashing one is also quite plausible.

Tyranids, Orks, Guard, Space Wolves (with the exception of Lukas) and Dark Eldar have all been well written and highly characterful. I see no-one bemoaning Vect and his deep striking imperial battleship.

Poseidal
24-02-2011, 16:06
When I read the Calvatar story I didn't think it sounded ridiculous because in-game they would square up to each other. If I was an Ultramarines player Id send Calgar after the Avatar. And as an ex-Eldar player I only ever used my Avatar as a fire magnet. I never relied on him killing things because he wasn't very good at it. The idea of Fulgrim smashing one is also quite plausible.
Which is ridiculous. The former joint most feared model on tabletop became a laughing stock in one edition, then kicked when it's down. Bad writing, especially the Fulgrim part, with the Primarchs themselves being subject to massive power inflation hyperbole.

They were more interesting before as exceptional men, where things were shrouded in myth.


Tyranids, Orks, Guard, Space Wolves (with the exception of Lukas) and Dark Eldar have all been well written and highly characterful. I see no-one bemoaning Vect and his deep striking imperial battleship.
Because it's not actually that ridiculous. He didn't literally pick it up and throw it in himself.

Rai_st
24-02-2011, 16:35
I realize a lot of guy's are upset here but really - is this the first time fluff has been written that's this poor? Of course not - take the good with the bad. Guy's have been moaning about Calgar beating up an Avatar for YEARS now. Can't we let it go? Is it any more ridiculous than Yarrick being able to go toe to toe with the greatest warboss alive? Or anything ever written about Sly Marbo? I actually really liked the fluff in a lot of the newer codexes - remember the Pamphlet you got with a couple rules in Third Edition. I actually prefer having something to read even if it's not all good.

One thing I do think is that when they kill off a character; he should not have rules in the next codex. Eldrad and Lysander would still be used, just now they are a farseer and and a chapter master.

Poseidal
24-02-2011, 16:40
This is one step worse.

I think people who were ok with Calgartar aren't ok with this; their line is drawn just at a different point.

MvS
24-02-2011, 16:47
Personally I'd like to see more background on things like force organisation, institutions, beliefs, practices, secrets, treaties, tactics and controversies (etc), and less of an emphasis on descriptions of battle after battle and duel after duel.

I mean things like the battle for Macragge against the Tyranids is an important part of Ultramarine history, but endless examples of Ultramarines in battle (or whatever) smacks of 'filler text' to me. The same goes for Chaos or Grey Knights or anything else.

I would prefer my knowledge and appreciation of the setting and its factions deepened, with plenty of hooks, nods and winks for me to add my own ideas or write wargame/roleplay campaigns for my friends and me, not just repetitive "and so did he smite his enemy with unsurpassed badassery" war porn.

Rai_st
24-02-2011, 16:53
This is one step worse.

I think people who were ok with Calgartar aren't ok with this; their line is drawn just at a different point.

You are right - I haven't read the codex myself and so cannot comment - but if it turns out to be true then I will be dissapointed. I just wanted to point out that at one time we didn't have fluff being printed at all.

I for one really liked the ret-conned Chaos fluff from the chaos daemon codex. I like the "greek gods" struggling for dominence and power. It means that a lot of the older stuff is invalid though. No longer do Khorne and Slannesh daemon's kill each other on sight, now they attempt to manipulate the other for personal gain. It may come across as a 'wussification' but it added something to the narrative of your army. Said manipulation still often results in one side being respawned in the warp of course.:)

Easy E
24-02-2011, 20:20
Is it any more ridiculous than Yarrick being able to go toe to toe with the greatest warboss alive?

Note, Yarrick never actually went Toe-to-toe with Ghazzie. There battle was more about tactics and strategy rather than a physical duel. Therefore, as a cerebral exercise between two great generals it is incredibly believable.

bruceadsero
24-02-2011, 20:34
The Fantasy RoC is very different from the warp of both systems where the Gods actually have their own domains. You can compare the RoC to be more like the Maelstrom and the EoT. Mortals can 'walk' and exist in both realms and over time they will be corrupted depending on various factors. Perhaps like the Chaos Warriors and the Chaos Marines these mortals choose to live in these realms and possibly were born there.

My knowledge of WHF is limited but in the Gotrek and Felix novels, the two guys go into the RoC on a quest aboard a hindenburg-ish ship and seem to suffer no ill-effects other than having to fight a mutated monster Skaven on their return journey who had been hiding on the ship all along.



Carl Thonius, Ravenor's former interrogator, was not the one who was shown in that scene in the book. It was Ravenor's arch nemesis whose name escapes me at the moment. Said guy showed how he could cripple an entire sub-sector by killing off a few HIGHLY placed important individuals in the sub-sector government or by inciting revolts and such. It is pretty spot on and in no way far-fetched. Imagine what would happen to a sub-sector dominated by the Ecclesiarchy in which its ruling cardinal is offed by an assassin. Or if Warmaster Macaroth is killed in combat during the Sabbat Crusade.




Well I do not disagree with the fact that those officials being killed would destablize the sub-sector the ways he would do it did seem a little far fetched, at one point he claims he has hypnotized a man and is able of convincing him to be a important dignitary to death in order to cause a trade war of some sort or another. Im not disputing that GK fluff had its bad points but Chaos still has it moments like that too. I personally think the whole govenor corruption thing is a cheap plot ploy that has been used to death. A inquistor arrives on a backwater planet to investigate rumours of a cult. He is opposed by the govenor but find evidence that the cult exists. He returns to the govenor who is suprise suprise a member/leader of the cutl and is orchestrating a massive rebellion.

HK-47
24-02-2011, 20:48
Well I do not disagree with the fact that those officials being killed would destablize the sub-sector the ways he would do it did seem a little far fetched, at one point he claims he has hypnotized a man and is able of convincing him to be a important dignitary to death in order to cause a trade war of some sort or another. Im not disputing that GK fluff had its bad points but Chaos still has it moments like that too. I personally think the whole govenor corruption thing is a cheap plot ploy that has been used to death. A inquistor arrives on a backwater planet to investigate rumours of a cult. He is opposed by the govenor but find evidence that the cult exists. He returns to the govenor who is suprise suprise a member/leader of the cutl and is orchestrating a massive rebellion.

That's actually an example of what I'm talking about. Games-Workshop authors have stopped trying to show chaos as anything other than a bunch of mustache twirling villains. That does bad things for the laughs.

The assassination concept itself is perfectly fine, but sometimes GW and BL take it a little too far, like the Nemesis HH novel for example.

TheMav80
24-02-2011, 20:51
As much as I like the Dark Eldar codex, I didn't like a lot of the back round just because it seemed to be more about how awesome Vect was than the Dark Eldar themselves.

SgtTaters
24-02-2011, 21:11
I see no-one bemoaning Vect and his deep striking imperial battleship.

Vect was killing other dark eldar, so DE players don't really complain since a no-name died and it supports the leader of their faction. If Vect dropped a space ship on Ultramar and made Calgar run away, that would rouse fanboy anger.
DE accomplishment were mostly in killing each other, killing each other with a show of super tough space marines mowing down dark eldar, devastating guardsmen and tau from worlds they just made up for that battle. They did troll the space wolves pretty hard though, but again, a bunch of nameless guys.

Tthat crucial element of humiliation isn't really there. That's the magic of Matt Ward, it's not just about winning, it's about tinkling all over the loser's corpse. It'd be more like
"and so Lelith Hesperax, who was getting sort of sweaty from dodging a bunch of lascannon blasts, ran up to the chapter master and they started fighting. Calgar swung his power fist but Lelith blocked the blow with her knife, and then she cut off his arms and legs. The sight of Calgar flopping like a fish scared the ultramarines and they ran away. Lelith was getting a leg cramp."

Oh, Calgar's mostly a cyborg so he survived it, so it's OK, just like how the Avatar always comes back from defeat.

Then a short blurb about "and so the Intruders Kabal struck the Space Sharks Chapter home planet and killed everybody, leaving the fortress monastery an empty tomb of carnage".

and if we want to get Primarchy, how about
"then with an expert cut Drahzar ripped out the landraider's throat, suffocating the battletank. You heard right, that landraider suffocated, because Drahzar is a goddamn Phoenix Lord, got it?"

That, that is how far you have to go to bring other races to Space Marine fluff level.

Carlosophy
24-02-2011, 22:03
Vect was killing other dark eldar, so DE players don't really complain since a no-name died and it supports the leader of their faction. If Vect dropped a space ship on Ultramar and made Calgar run away, that would rouse fanboy anger.
DE accomplishment were mostly in killing each other, killing each other with a show of super tough space marines mowing down dark eldar, devastating guardsmen and tau from worlds they just made up for that battle. They did troll the space wolves pretty hard though, but again, a bunch of nameless guys.

Tthat crucial element of humiliation isn't really there. That's the magic of Matt Ward, it's not just about winning, it's about tinkling all over the loser's corpse. It'd be more like
"and so Lelith Hesperax, who was getting sort of sweaty from dodging a bunch of lascannon blasts, ran up to the chapter master and they started fighting. Calgar swung his power fist but Lelith blocked the blow with her knife, and then she cut off his arms and legs. The sight of Calgar flopping like a fish scared the ultramarines and they ran away. Lelith was getting a leg cramp."

Oh, Calgar's mostly a cyborg so he survived it, so it's OK, just like how the Avatar always comes back from defeat.

Then a short blurb about "and so the Intruders Kabal struck the Space Sharks Chapter home planet and killed everybody, leaving the fortress monastery an empty tomb of carnage".

and if we want to get Primarchy, how about
"then with an expert cut Drahzar ripped out the landraider's throat, suffocating the battletank. You heard right, that landraider suffocated, because Drahzar is a goddamn Phoenix Lord, got it?"

That, that is how far you have to go to bring other races to Space Marine fluff level.

Space Marines are supposed to not only be the archetype and poster boys of 40k but also the paragons of heroism. Younger gamers want to play marines because they wish they were them and so GW has to 'Videogame' their fluff. Calgar represents the pinnacle of Marines in the same way as Master Chief, Kratos or Marcus Fenix. He HAS to kill something more badass than himself so gamers want him in their army. Hive Tyrants are 10-a-penny and Grey Knights match wits with Daemons so this leaves the Avatar. Calgar is literally a 'God of War' and I see no reason why he shouldnt be that badass in the same way Drazar just slaughters the best incubi and Abaddon can strangle and boss daemons around.

Mannimarco
24-02-2011, 22:18
Calgar is not literally a "god of war" he just has a fancy special rule.

A literal god of war would be khaine.

To literally be a god of war you would need to be a god. Calgar is a marine, a tanked up one but a marine nonetheless.

I eagerly await the day when Abaddon is capable of smacking the best daemons around, as it stands right now his biggest test of strength would be when he cracked open the supposedly impenetrable gates of the citadel of the Kromach at El'Phanor after he and his terminators got shot to hell trying to reach the gate.

Quite a feat in itself but not quite the same as beating an Avatar, catching a great big flaming sword swung at him by somthing bigger and (we must assume) stronger. That kind of downward force should have turned his bones to mush (the remaining non cybernetic ones anyway)

Sarevok
24-02-2011, 22:24
Personally I'd like to see more background on things like force organisation, institutions, beliefs, practices, secrets, treaties, tactics and controversies (etc), and less of an emphasis on descriptions of battle after battle and duel after duel.

I mean things like the battle for Macragge against the Tyranids is an important part of Ultramarine history, but endless examples of Ultramarines in battle (or whatever) smacks of 'filler text' to me. The same goes for Chaos or Grey Knights or anything else.

I would prefer my knowledge and appreciation of the setting and its factions deepened, with plenty of hooks, nods and winks for me to add my own ideas or write wargame/roleplay campaigns for my friends and me, not just repetitive "and so did he smite his enemy with unsurpassed badassery" war porn.

Funny, that's exactly the sort of thing Matt Ward was deliberatley trying to get away from

[lexus]
24-02-2011, 22:36
Funny, that's exactly the sort of thing Matt Ward was deliberatley trying to get away from
That was the Space Marine codex and with good reason. Its simple really, this is the codex and they are about the game and the army. That means they have some background, but that background will mostly be about awesome battles. No new gamer is going to pick an army because it has such a deep and detailed description of their religious believes, and how they have organized their entire chapter. The basics are nice to know, but youre primarily interested as a new gamer in the awesome battles that army has won and how awesome they look on the battlefield.

Once you get hooked to an army, you start to develop a deeper interest in the background, which is good for the sales as they can then start writing a special book about the background of those armies and sell those.

I think its just part of the business strategy. Get people hooked to the game first, and those that develop a deeper and stronger interest in the background of the game, you can sell them extra books. It might actually help people to develop stronger ties with the hobby. I mean, whats better, two books, one for gaming and one for background or a book that does a bit of both, but fails with the background.

Iracundus
24-02-2011, 23:16
That was not how they did it in 2nd edition and the game survived just fine and still attracted new players. A Codex would open with introduction and background on the faction or army and sometimes go on extensively about them before even beginning to delve into their recent battles. There certainly were not the same sort of <insert name> beating up on <insert incompetent enemy> warporn stories.

insectum7
24-02-2011, 23:28
Calgar is not literally a "god of war" he just has a fancy special rule.

A literal god of war would be khaine.

To literally be a god of war you would need to be a god. Calgar is a marine, a tanked up one but a marine nonetheless.

. . .

Quite a feat in itself but not quite the same as beating an Avatar, catching a great big flaming sword swung at him by somthing bigger and (we must assume) stronger. That kind of downward force should have turned his bones to mush (the remaining non cybernetic ones anyway)

To be perfectly honest, I think the "God of War" phrase, and the over the top detail of punching through an Avatar is pretty much a direct nod to the video game "God of War". If not a direct nod, then at least a result/recognition of a certain pulp aesthetic. I'm almost positive that somebody at GW at some point made a conscious decision to emulate what was popular in video games at the time, and there you have it. "God of War" is well known for it's ultra-violent, over the top kills of giant supernatural entities. GW has a long history of giving nods to other genres, I think this is one of them.

I'd rather it not spill over to story form so much, but really, I'm fine with Calgar defeating an Avatar, especially when Calgars got a bunch of marines around him. The only thing wrong is that the portrayal is in poor taste.



I eagerly await the day when Abaddon is capable of smacking the best daemons around, as it stands right now his biggest test of strength would be when he cracked open the supposedly impenetrable gates of the citadel of the Kromach at El'Phanor after he and his terminators got shot to hell trying to reach the gate.

Does his sword Drachn'yen (or whatever) still cause instant death? Because from what I remember, Abbadon has been one of the top tier character/creature killers in game because of that thing, and he's pretty tough himself. He doesn't get stories about it, but he's always been very dangerous on the table.

Hellebore
24-02-2011, 23:39
When I read the Calvatar story I didn't think it sounded ridiculous because in-game they would square up to each other. If I was an Ultramarines player Id send Calgar after the Avatar. And as an ex-Eldar player I only ever used my Avatar as a fire magnet. I never relied on him killing things because he wasn't very good at it. The idea of Fulgrim smashing one is also quite plausible.

And in game a grot will kill marneus calgar, a small percentage of the time.

Does that mean that we should have a story where an army of grotz is being overpowered by ultramarines so one grot decides to take on Calgar. Calgar ignores lascannon fire (4+ invulnerable save, 1s to wound and hit), ignores ork power klaws (4+ invulnerable save, 1s to wound and hit), but is then defeated by a grot (fails to hit the grot, or wound the grot, grot managed to hit and wound every round and calgar fails his armour save).

That can happen in a game, therefore by your logic it should exist in the fluff.

There are plenty of incongruities in the game. It's abstract and cannot provide a 100% simulacrum of the background. Therefore it's not a particularly good basis for comparison.

A grot can ignore a demolisher shell, lascannon, even a bolter hit. It can be hit and yet its toughness is so awesome that it bounces off (rolling a 1 to wound is a failure to wound the target).

In reality if you hit even a space marine in the face with a bullet, they'd die. Mashed brains is lethal in most cases.

Hellebore

Mannimarco
24-02-2011, 23:39
Does his sword Drachn'yen (or whatever) still cause instant death? Because from what I remember, Abbadon has been one of the top tier character/creature killers in game because of that thing, and he's pretty tough himself. He doesn't get stories about it, but he's always been very dangerous on the table.

Nope its a just a daemon weapon that doubles his strength up to S8, he can also reroll any rolls of 1 so theres less chance of him stabbing himself in the face. Its still a kicker that he forgot he had mastered it back in 3.5 though.

Lord_Crull
24-02-2011, 23:41
Does his sword Drachn'yen (or whatever) still cause instant death? Because from what I remember, Abbadon has been one of the top tier character/creature killers in game because of that thing, and he's pretty tough himself. He doesn't get stories about it, but he's always been very dangerous on the table.

No, but Abaddon has S8 with re-roll on wounds. But he's still a top tier creature/character killer.



In reality if you hit even a space marine in the face with a bullet, they'd die. Mashed brains is lethal in most cases.

Hellebore

A marine loses half his head to an autogun round in Grey Hunter and manages to survive, although he won't be combat effective every again.

[lexus]
24-02-2011, 23:46
I wonder then why people object to Calgar punching an avatar in the face? I mean, if Calgar, one of the strongest Space Marines alive cannot fight an avatar and have a decent chance at winning, then who can? Youd get certain monsters who are fluff wise pretty much untouchable or require entire armies to drag down and then in game these Avatars suddenly are weak shadows of their fluffy brothers.

I mean, its not like Calgar is not much better then your average Ultramarine, no hes one of the best, and him punching the Avatar in the face just reinforces the fact that Calgar was meant to be the human Space Marine equivalent of an Avatar or greater deamon.

I havent read the story, but I dont think its written like 'Calgar walked up to the Avatar, took a jump and punched him in the face and walked back.'

insectum7
25-02-2011, 00:06
And in game a grot will kill marneus calgar, a small percentage of the time.

Does that mean that we should have a story where an army of grotz is being overpowered by ultramarines so one grot decides to take on Calgar. Calgar ignores lascannon fire (4+ invulnerable save, 1s to wound and hit), ignores ork power klaws (4+ invulnerable save, 1s to wound and hit), but is then defeated by a grot (fails to hit the grot, or wound the grot, grot managed to hit and wound every round and calgar fails his armour save).

That can happen in a game, therefore by your logic it should exist in the fluff.


That is a very, very, very poor comparison. A grot costs about 1% of what Calgar costs, and is generally considered to be a wuss and expected to die.

Both Avatars and Chapter Masters are respective "heroes" of their armies, are both expected to be badass, and are. On Thursday, Calgar beats an Avatar, on Friday the Avatar beats Calgar. I really don't think there's much to complain about other then story presentation.



Nope its a just a daemon weapon that doubles his strength up to S8, he can also reroll any rolls of 1 so theres less chance of him stabbing himself in the face. Its still a kicker that he forgot he had mastered it back in 3.5 though.


No, but Abaddon has S8 with re-roll on wounds. But he's still a top tier creature/character killer.


Well that's a little disappointing about weapon mastery, but S 8 striking at initiative is definitely no slouch. In fact, he hits like a Bloodthirster but at higher initiative. That will do most opponents in pretty handily.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 00:24
That is a very, very, very poor comparison. A grot costs about 1% of what Calgar costs, and is generally considered to be a wuss and expected to die.

Both Avatars and Chapter Masters are respective "heroes" of their armies, are both expected to be badass, and are. On Thursday, Calgar beats an Avatar, on Friday the Avatar beats Calgar. I really don't think there's much to complain about other then story presentation.


It's an entirely appropriate comparison because the poster claimed that GAME MECHANICS should influence background. If that is true, then a grot should be able to defeat calgar, as the GAME MECHANICS allow that. It's an entirely poor argument at all, which was my point. Don't use game mechanics to support background. Being a 'hero' doesn't change anything, calgar is still a space marine and the avatar is still a greater daemon warp entity. Giving them artificial titles in no way overrides their IN-universe differences.

The ultramarines have had dozens of chapter masters who were all presumably as good as calgar. But they're all dead. if they weren't calgar wouldn't be chapter master. So calgar is no different to his predecessors and they're all dead. The ONLY reason people give current named characters a break is because there are no future events. Imagine if the book gave us chapter master Caeser from M36. He was so hardcore he did all these awesome things. Well how the hell do we get to Calgar, when a previous chapter master was pulling all this crap too? What is going to be a realistic way to remove said chapter master? there isn't.

And that's the problem. When you present characters overcoming big nasties, you limit what can actually defeat them. We KNOW Chapter Master Caeser is dead because there have been other chapter masters. But if he's as awesome as calgar no fan will accept his death. There isn't any 'heroic' way for him to die, he's survived all of those.

And thus we are left with stupid background.

Hellebore

DeeKay
25-02-2011, 00:26
The 40k setting was brilliant, Chaos was a stunning, versatile, enthralling faction but GWs repeated desire to ram a new 'dex down our throats or force us to buy new models is nauseating.

I'm truely sorry, but I had to make some modifications. The disparity between old and new Codexes in terms of gameplay and fluff is, as you said, nauseating. I could refer to it in other ways, but I think language like that would get me warnings.

It seems to be the whole "Star Wars saga" problem. It's been around for a while and gathered an ageing but loyal following that assumes that the worlds were made for them. However, GW wishes to make changes in order to appeal to others in order to make money, as any business must do. Those changes may appeal to the newer blood but they rankle with the old timers.

If you want to see anything like this in action, stick an original Star Wars fan and a fan of the new trilogy in a room together and watch them fight to the death. Well maybe not that last part. The same happens when old fluff nuts discuss new books with anyone, I've seen it happen.


Chaos has been repeatedly devalued, made less characterful and interesting, the Eldar have been made to look like weak space elves, despite the richness of their background, the Orks have been destroyed by rules designed to make them silly, there has been a disproportionate amount of time spent on Imperial factions, especially a dozen flavours of Astartes, compared to relatively little time spent on other, more varied and interesting races, the Squats are still gone, the Necrons were poorly thought out and contradicted acres of extant fluff, the Tau were promising but have been left to wither on the vine and the Nids have been neglected in favour of the Necrons.

A few points to make here:

1) Marines, at one point at least, made up over 50% of GW's TOTAL sales. Of course they get preferential treatment.

2) Squats have been phased out by GW. Accept it and be happier for it. Necrons and Tau are essentially the product of a games dev team that realised over 60% of 2nd Ed codices were devoted to human armies.

3) Nids neglected in favour of Necrons? Nids have had 2 books out since the Cron initial release for 3rd Ed.

4) In the eyes of GW plc, a solid balanced rules set < cash. Cash is gained by selling what's new. If what's new wins games = cash.


If I was to still play 40k, it would be under 2nd Ed ed rules with folks of the same age - I just try to pretend the last fourteen years or so haven't happened....

I have altered your post to reflect my views. It's a shame in a way but at least my way guarantees me that I play against someone with a similar mentality beyond the usual over-excitable GW fanboy.

With regards,
Dan.

HK-47
25-02-2011, 00:27
;5340194']I wonder then why people object to Calgar punching an avatar in the face? I mean, if Calgar, one of the strongest Space Marines alive cannot fight an avatar and have a decent chance at winning, then who can? Youd get certain monsters who are fluff wise pretty much untouchable or require entire armies to drag down and then in game these Avatars suddenly are weak shadows of their fluffy brothers.

I mean, its not like Calgar is not much better then your average Ultramarine, no hes one of the best, and him punching the Avatar in the face just reinforces the fact that Calgar was meant to be the human Space Marine equivalent of an Avatar or greater deamon.

I havent read the story, but I dont think its written like 'Calgar walked up to the Avatar, took a jump and punched him in the face and walked back.'

It's not the just the fact that Calgar killed an Avatar; it's the way the story is written. It's written in the over the top, cartoonish Matt Ward style. The Eldar are describe as acting like complete idiots, and Calgar is describe as like a cross between Hercules and Rommel. He out fights the Eldar, he out thinks the Eldar, and the Eldar do these stupid things. They charge Warp Spiders; I mean World War 1 style bayonet charge, into the Space Marines defenses. The Striking Scorpion's get ambushed by Scouts in a forest. The Eldar vehicles land on an open hill to fire! Thunderhawk gunships out dogfight Eldar air superiority fighters! Calgar is describe as not even being stained in countering the Eldar attacks on the fly, while engaging in hand to hand fighting at the same time! The whole story is just tripe.

eyescrossed
25-02-2011, 00:33
Calgar is a massive Mary Sue. He's amazing in combat and apparently a tactical genius, yet the Space Marine book gives no examples as to how. It literally says he's a tactical genius because he ordered Space Marines to move over there, or to shoot that. Ward also portrays the Eldar as intelligent as Orks; they run pointlessly into the fire of the Ultramarines.

Also, tell me how Thunderhawks can outmaneuver Nightwings.




Both Avatars and Chapter Masters are respective "heroes" of their armies, are both expected to be badass, and are. On Thursday, Calgar beats an Avatar, on Friday the Avatar beats Calgar. I really don't think there's much to complain about other then story presentation.
Except that the Avatar is the physical manifestation of a God of War, equivalent to a Bloodthirster. You don't need to have heroes clashing in epic duels like this; that's not what 40k used to be about. It was all grimdark before, with everyone being faceless in the endless masses of humanity and individuals mattering nil, with heroes dying (heroically, mind you) in last stands and such.

The way Matt Ward writes is turning 40k into Clash of the Titans on steroids.


EDIT: Ninja'd. HK-47 said it better than me, though.

Sephiroth
25-02-2011, 00:39
And that's the problem. When you present characters overcoming big nasties, you limit what can actually defeat them. We KNOW Chapter Master Caeser is dead because there have been other chapter masters. But if he's as awesome as calgar no fan will accept his death. There isn't any 'heroic' way for him to die, he's survived all of those.

Clearly an Avatar got the drop on him. :p

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 00:44
Clearly an Avatar got the drop on him. :p

Which, as he's already beaten one, will produce cries of 'suck' because there's no way he could lose.

And that is the problem. When, in order to make a character pimping awesome, you make him better than those things that could beat him you run out of ways to realistically beat him. So fans are either pissed that he died in such a sissy way because the background showed he shouldn't, or the fans are pissed that he could win at everything in the first place.

If he didn't win at everything being killed by an avatar would seem reasonable - a daemonic avatar of a wargod is a pretty awesome thing to die to.

Anyway, the Draigo stuff is stupid. Calgar was stupid. Sanguinor is stupid. There is no depth to their stories beyond 'fap fap, AWESOME!'...:rolleyes:


hellebore

eyescrossed
25-02-2011, 00:49
You know, Hellebore... I can actually imagine Matt Ward jacking off to his own fluff. I dunno, it's just that ridiculous.

Hrogoff the Destructor
25-02-2011, 00:57
Matt Ward's fluff reminds me of the South Park where Mint Berry Crunch fights Cthulhu.

The only thing missing is "Shablagoo".

Chapters Unwritten
25-02-2011, 00:59
In my opinion, Chaos should be the most powerful and flexible army out there.

Most armies have a weakness. Tau are small-scale; Necrons are still busy awakening; Tyranids are dependent on synapse; Orks are too busy fighting with each other half the time. Even the Imperial armies are slaves to their dogma and practices. Hell, the SM themselves literally fight most of their battles by using one single book's tactics.

Chaos has no such qualms. They should have the most flexible equipment and army composition, and their army practically builds itself. This is the army that needs to finally have the "The HQ takes this, the rest of the army makes it troops" bit that so many people want. Terminator HQ? Terminator Troops. Mark of Nurgle HQ? Mark of Nurgle Troops. So on and so forth.

For me it's not even about the fluff, though I am a bit peeved. The grimdark universe of WH40k attracted me because the "good guys" are desperate and in the midst of a grand last stand, their only hope being sheer will and determination. Now, with all these books that show the SM handily dismissing everything in their path, they have really made things pretty unbelievable that any enemy could pose a realistic threat.

Draigo is walking around doing things that the Emperor himself could not. It's way too much, honestly. I really loved the story and all, but it would have made a lot more sense if he had been rendered into some kind of warp entity (like most people assume the Sanguinor is).

I realize I am alone in this, but I actually *like* the Sanguinor, and the very concept that perhaps the Emperor is now actively creating his own "daemons" in the warp to aid his people in realspace. Unfortunately, Ward's writing really falls short of implying this in any meaningful way, and he literally depicts the Sanguinor as just some dude that comes out of the sky on a rough day at the office instead.

Col. Tartleton
25-02-2011, 01:41
Remember, Marbo killed a Titan with a knife... (or something.)

Lord_Crull
25-02-2011, 02:20
They charge Warp Spiders; I mean World War 1 style bayonet charge, into the Space Marines defenses. The Striking Scorpion's get ambushed by Scouts in a forest.

Actually no. The Warp spiders where not described as charging enemy lines WWI style. They where descirbed as being driven into an ambush by Predator guns. Striking Scorpions arn't even mentioned in the entire story.


The Eldar vehicles land on an open hill to fire!

Not really. The Fire Prisms are mentioned as being attacked in the scrublands before they could fire, but no mention otherwise of their fate. Vypers are mentioned as engaging Bikers in ''hill and crag''.


Calgar is describe as not even being stained in countering the Eldar attacks on the fly, while engaging in hand to hand fighting at the same time!

Not quite. He described as not letting the strain show. but it's implied he is feeling strain.

Honestly the only problem I have with the story is the Thunderhawk vs. Nightwing thing. The rest I'm fine with.

Lord-Caerolion
25-02-2011, 03:39
Ive read all the recent post-eldar codices and the only one I disliked was Blood Angels and this was for their preposterous amount of characters, Sanguinor and the terrible, terrible cover art. Their actual list was quite cool and I debated starting a flesh tearers army just to include the kick ass Seth model.

When I read the Calvatar story I didn't think it sounded ridiculous because in-game they would square up to each other. If I was an Ultramarines player Id send Calgar after the Avatar. And as an ex-Eldar player I only ever used my Avatar as a fire magnet. I never relied on him killing things because he wasn't very good at it. The idea of Fulgrim smashing one is also quite plausible.

Tyranids, Orks, Guard, Space Wolves (with the exception of Lukas) and Dark Eldar have all been well written and highly characterful. I see no-one bemoaning Vect and his deep striking imperial battleship.

And in-game we have an ICBM with a minimum range of about 50 metres, which is being steadily ignored because it's "not mobile enough".

Game rules =/= fluff. Game rules = an interpretation of the fluff. Otherwise, based on your statements, in the next Eldar codex we can expect to see the Avatar changed from the fiery manifestation of their War God to a harmless bullet-magnet, whose only role is to jump dramatically in front of lascannon shots and any passing Calgars.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 04:44
They invented the Dreadknight to take on greater daemons in combat - and then proceed to make it redundant by providing characters that do that on their own. :rolleyes:

What the hell was the point? Oh, to sell new plastic models pulled out of someone's ass. I forgot.

Hellebore

Lord-Caerolion
25-02-2011, 04:51
They invented the Dreadknight to take on greater daemons in combat - and then proceed to make it redundant by providing characters that do that on their own. :rolleyes:

What the hell was the point? Oh, to sell new plastic models pulled out of someone's ass. I forgot.

Hellebore

No, I'd more say Matt Ward had just watched a bit too much of Aliens when he came up with that. After all, Ripley got in a construction rig to fight a Queen, so Grey Knight should hop in a construc... I mean Dreadknight to fight Greater Daemons.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 05:02
No, I'd more say Matt Ward had just watched a bit too much of Aliens when he came up with that. After all, Ripley got in a construction rig to fight a Queen, so Grey Knight should hop in a construc... I mean Dreadknight to fight Greater Daemons.

Does that mean Draigo hops inside himself to fight the daemons:p? My point was if grey knights can simply do this stuff by themselves anyway, what the hell is the point of a dreadknight?

EDIT: It says in the dreadknight entry that it was designed because grey knights can't rely on faith and flesh alone to take on greater daemons ... except when they can. :eyebrows:

Hellebore

Lothlanathorian
25-02-2011, 06:02
the Orks have been destroyed by rules designed to make them silly



You clearly skipped 2nd Edition. And everything before it. The Orks being serious was the out-of-character anamoly. Also, since you think 3rd is where all the action was and clearly didn't play 2nd, why gripe about the Squats?

MajorWesJanson
25-02-2011, 06:40
EDIT: It says in the dreadknight entry that it was designed because grey knights can't rely on faith and flesh alone to take on greater daemons ... except when they can. :eyebrows:

Hellebore

They can't on it. Sometimes it works. Most the time, it gets 300 GKs eaten on a daemon world, or 90+ GK terminators killed fighting Angron, or their Supreme Grand Master being sucked into the warp fighting one.

It's like saying that people can't rely on faith and flesh alone to survive a car wreck, so they invented air bags and seat belts. A few people survive just fine without using them (usually drunks for some reason). Most just end up mangled and dead.

MvS
25-02-2011, 08:49
;5340068']That was the Space Marine codex and with good reason. Its simple really, this is the codex and they are about the game and the army. That means they have some background, but that background will mostly be about awesome battles.
Even then though, the battles are hardly 'awesome', they're just 'big'. They don't tell us about the Ultramarines, they just tell us what they did.


No new gamer is going to pick an army because it has such a deep and detailed description of their religious believes, and how they have organized their entire chapter.
That isn't what I was saying - although even then I'm not convinced. I was saying that more detail on what they are and how they think, and what makes them what they are and distinct from other marines (or whatever else) is just as interesting and appropriate as "and here's another battle where the Ultramarines fought someone"


The basics are nice to know, but youre primarily interested as a new gamer in the awesome battles that army has won and how awesome they look on the battlefield.
Maybe. But then I wasn't, nor were my friends, and this isn't how GW began building its fanbase, so...

Poseidal
25-02-2011, 08:53
In regards to what 'new gamers' want, as a kid (back around the time in 2nd ed when I started) I read through the codices for these things. The details on how Power Armour work, Eldar society, biology of Tyranids and all things like that.

I don't want to read about these battles because that's what I do in the game, I don't need to see someone else doing it. It just wasn't that interesting.

Also remember that during that time 40k was in a growth period. When it stopped in favour of 'awesome battles', 40k has been losing more and more players. I'm not saying it's the cause, but bring new players in is something that style doesn't seem to have done.

[lexus]
25-02-2011, 09:08
It's not the just the fact that Calgar killed an Avatar; it's the way the story is written. It's written in the over the top, cartoonish Matt Ward style. The Eldar are describe as acting like complete idiots, and Calgar is describe as like a cross between Hercules and Rommel. He out fights the Eldar, he out thinks the Eldar, and the Eldar do these stupid things. They charge Warp Spiders; I mean World War 1 style bayonet charge, into the Space Marines defenses. The Striking Scorpion's get ambushed by Scouts in a forest. The Eldar vehicles land on an open hill to fire! Thunderhawk gunships out dogfight Eldar air superiority fighters! Calgar is describe as not even being stained in countering the Eldar attacks on the fly, while engaging in hand to hand fighting at the same time! The whole story is just tripe.

And the Eldar codex contains no stories in where they utterly defeat another army in a slightly unrealistic fashion? Hmm, as a matter of fact yes. One Phoenix Lord with a 100 followers utterly destroying a Hive Fleet. Ok, the followers all die, but the Phoenix Lord kills them all. Thats unrealistic as well. Nobody cares though, because its the Eldar, and they arent as hated as the Ultramarines.

That aside, Eldar have always been utter losers in the fluff. Everytime they interfere to save a craftworld or a few Eldar lives, they get drawn into some huge scale conflict that ends with them dead. Besides that, out thinking the Eldar isnt such a rare thing. There are multiple stories about Guard captains doing the same thing. Hell, for a race that can look into the future, they rarely dont see their own destruction at the hands of some Guard regiment or Space Marine chapter.

But ok, the story is over the top and a little silly, is that a reason to get so worked up over it? Just say that the author of said story should never write a book for the Black Library and be done with it. After all, its just a story, in a codex. Those stories are always over the top. In fact, the whole 40K setting has always been over the top in a lot of aspects. Everyone just accepts that, but when it comes to Space Marines it invokes some kind of super hate.

Poseidal
25-02-2011, 09:16
It isn't the defeat in an unrealistic fashion, it's the humiliating fashion on top of it, and the silliness of some of the implications.

Iracundus
25-02-2011, 09:20
;5340910']And the Eldar codex contains no stories in where they utterly defeat another army in a slightly unrealistic fashion? Hmm, as a matter of fact yes. One Phoenix Lord with a 100 followers utterly destroying a Hive Fleet. Ok, the followers all die, but the Phoenix Lord kills them all. Thats unrealistic as well.

Actually no, that isn't a story in the Eldar Codex and there are no such unrealistic over the top killings in the Eldar Codex from 2nd ed., 3rd ed., or 4th ed. That story dates from a WD artcle on Mauga Ra, but even then you are overstating the details.

Maugan Ra's tale on Iyanden doesn't have him destroying Kraken himself. That was a major struggle between all the armed forces of Iyanden and ultimately also Yriel's Raiders. Maugan Ra just ended up defeating one assault, and one synapse creature that in today's terms would be a Trygon Prime.

Ghal Maraz
25-02-2011, 09:26
The problem is that Marines seem to show no flaws, they are the perfect and good and generous and nobile heroes.

Marines DO are Imperium's heroes: integralist killers with no remorse, fascists and racists, psycho indoctrinated to kill and kill and kill.

They can make great action heroes, but they are far from humanity perfection.
Or, better. Thay are humanity perfection, but in the 40K setting, a setting no one, I presume, would gladly want to see in real life! :D

[lexus]
25-02-2011, 09:28
Actually no, that isn't a story in the Eldar Codex and there are no such unrealistic over the top killings in the Eldar Codex from 2nd ed., 3rd ed., or 4th ed. That story dates from a WD artcle on Mauga Ra, but even then you are overstating the details.

Maugan Ra's tale on Iyanden doesn't have him destroying Kraken himself. That was a major struggle between all the armed forces of Iyanden and ultimately also Yriel's Raiders. Maugan Ra just ended up defeating one assault, and one synapse creature that in today's terms would be a Trygon Prime.

The story describes it as if he pretty much destroyed the whole assault himself. That aside, he destroyed a wave that would be unstoppable for a whole lot of other units. On his own. Face it, its over the top, given what we know about Tyranids. Yet, nobody minds as it are Eldar and they deserve some love between all their defeats in the Imperial fluff.

That aside, when it comes to Eldar, all their defeats are humiliating as they could and should have seen it all coming to them and they never do. On top of that, half of those defeats could have been avoided if they just worked together with the Imperium as their goals are very often the same.

Poseidal
25-02-2011, 09:40
What he did was destroy a (albeit impressive) Synapse creature, so internally to the Tyranid style of operation that sort of defeat would make sense (the small bugs literally become mindless and useless when the Synapse is killed). It isn't that over the top in all consideration.

And it only happened in a specific area of Iyanden, and wasn't a defeat of Kraken itself.

The other problem is certain writers tend to write all armies as having Synapse leaders.

With the working with the Imperium, I want more defeats for the Imperium not listening to the Eldar; especially as that makes more sense considering the latter's farseeing ability.

Obrimos
25-02-2011, 09:55
You clearly skipped 2nd Edition. And everything before it. The Orks being serious was the out-of-character anamoly. Also, since you think 3rd is where all the action was and clearly didn't play 2nd, why gripe about the Squats?

The "'ere we go!" mentality has been a feature of the Orks since they got their first codex. However, the Ork Codex still has its extremely philosophical moments. Orks don't take anything seriously, not even their own deaths. Of course this opens up opportunities for a lot humourous things. The Orks are the comic relief of Warhammer. They need to be this way. The Orks don't care to be wussified either because they never took themselves serious in the first place, but Chaos does take itself seriously.

Point is that Chaos itself has changed styles rather dramatically over the years.
This does not concern writing alone but also illustrations, miniatures and other sorts of artwork.

Artistically Chaos started out as a sort of multicolored disproportioned baroqueness in the style of Hieronymus Bosch. Next came a more D&D like fantasy style, which was pretty awesome but not fearsome. Finally in third edition we get a more "organic" lovecraftian style with strange intermixture of flesh and armour in disturbing shapes (which is in no way represented well by most of the miniatures).

Now, you tell me which artistic aspect of Chaos is the most serious, more frightening, more disturbing. And can still be sold to kids..
(Now don't get me started on Dark Eldar. They are still Space Elves and thus will always be wussies.)

I don't even know if a book full of nightmarish illustrations, horror texts and descriptions of complete derangedness would make the wussification go away. Chaos is so deranged that you probably cannot take it seriously.

[lexus]
25-02-2011, 10:15
What he did was destroy a (albeit impressive) Synapse creature, so internally to the Tyranid style of operation that sort of defeat would make sense (the small bugs literally become mindless and useless when the Synapse is killed). It isn't that over the top in all consideration.

And it only happened in a specific area of Iyanden, and wasn't a defeat of Kraken itself.

The other problem is certain writers tend to write all armies as having Synapse leaders.

With the working with the Imperium, I want more defeats for the Imperium not listening to the Eldar; especially as that makes more sense considering the latter's farseeing ability.

Yeah, before he got to killing the big Synapse creature he first had to blast his way through wave after wave of smaller ones. In the end, he still killed a ridiculous amount of Tyranids that would have overrun most other factions (except maybe Ultramarines). Anyways, in the 5th edition of the codex Tyranids he defeats a whole swarm singlehandedly. Im not sure what they mean with swarm though.

Still, its apparently worth mentioning on the galactic map with all of Leviathans notable engagements, so I assume it wasnt just a few dozen of them.

EDIT: Oh wait, apparently they retconned the whole thing. Its now an Avatar that fights the Tyranids and gets utterly destroyed by a dozen of Carnifexes (wow, those Avatars are worthless) but in comes a lost prince and he saves the day. Maugan Ra is now fighting Tyranids on some other distant planet no one ever heard of and killing them all singlehandedly.

Kal Taron
25-02-2011, 11:17
@lexus
Yes, they recently tried to turn Maugan Ra into a Marty Stu like Calgar for some reason. It's still true that the Eldar codizes never had the kind of OTT stuff seen in some recent codices. It's probably only a matter of time though until they get their 5th ed treatment and if it's done even close to what the Marines got... They will be lucky if it's only DE level OOT stuff.

AlexHolker
25-02-2011, 11:54
;5341029']Anyways, in the 5th edition of the codex Tyranids...
Well there's your problem. The latest Tyranid codex is a complete write-off from a fluff perspective, alternating between pro-Tyranid bias (attacking an Iron Warrior fortress world and winning), anti-Tyranid bias and just plain stupid (Narwhales).

Idaan
25-02-2011, 11:58
;5341029']Yeah, before he got to killing the big Synapse creature he first had to blast his way through wave after wave of smaller ones. In the end, he still killed a ridiculous amount of Tyranids that would have overrun most other factions (except maybe Ultramarines). Anyways, in the 5th edition of the codex Tyranids he defeats a whole swarm singlehandedly. Im not sure what they mean with swarm though.

Still, its apparently worth mentioning on the galactic map with all of Leviathans notable engagements, so I assume it wasnt just a few dozen of them.

EDIT: Oh wait, apparently they retconned the whole thing. Its now an Avatar that fights the Tyranids and gets utterly destroyed by a dozen of Carnifexes (wow, those Avatars are worthless) but in comes a lost prince and he saves the day. Maugan Ra is now fighting Tyranids on some other distant planet no one ever heard of and killing them all singlehandedly.
The story about Maugan Ra on Iyanden is still canon. Craftworlds are moon-sized with populations in millions at least, and Iyanden was the largest of them. There's a lot of room for Maugan to defeat one Trygon Prime - the fact that it's unmentioned in the Codex - Tyranids only shows that it was relatively insignificant in the grand scale.

Also, the description doesn't mention him killing any other Tyranids than the Trygon nor does it mention any other Eldar than his Reaper retinue. You're making the whole story seem larger than it really was.

The fact that Maugan's fight against a "Tyranid swarm" on Stormvald is mentioned doesn't mean that it was strategically important. There's a lot of little facts mentioned across the codex. As far as I know, the moon base on Gheist isn't exactly the lynchpin of Imperial defence, and it's still marked on the map.

Hellebore
25-02-2011, 12:14
On the other hand Prince Yriel stole the Avatar's glory quite dramatically - the story went from the Avatar besting the swarm leader in single combat to Yriel doing it and the Avatar standing around yelling incoherently until some carnifexes ran him over. :eyebrows:

Hellebore

MvS
25-02-2011, 12:33
On the other hand Prince Yriel stole the Avatar's glory quite dramatically - the story went from the Avatar besting the swarm leader in single combat to Yriel doing it and the Avatar standing around yelling incoherently until some carnifexes ran him over.
Avatars and their drinking problems...

If they'd just lay off the sauce they wouldn't fall over so quickly whenever some Tom, Marneus or Carnifex bumped into them.

Grubnar
25-02-2011, 13:11
Apply across factions:

Why can't a humble grot kill a chapter master? why can't a normal Guardian become a hero through extreme amounts of luck?

My grots kill a "hero of the Imperium" on a regular basis. But then again they are so numerous that one is bound to get lucky and stab a chapter master in the eye or something. :angel:


... I mean, what Draigo has done is th equivalent of an ork getting into Terra and just wandering around beating the snot out of everyone from the custodes to the arbitrators until they're all too scared to fight him. If it's stupid, it's stupid.


Can you imagine the backlash if that actually happened? :D I love the smell of Space Marine flavored hypocrisy in the morning.

Actually, this has already happened ... kinda, sorta.
You see, there really are orks on holy Terra! Not many, the Deathwatch only encounters a handfull at a time, but it seems to be impossible to exterminate them compleatly (because of the "spore" reproduction method). It vexes them to no end that these filthy xenos walk upon holy Terra.


It has been and probably always will be about how many stories can they tell that make Space Marines (no matter if it's a regular codex chapter or something like Grey Knights) sell better.

It's easy to cast them, easy to make a single sprue that can modify them to whatever chapter you need, and easy to make them sell by writing crap stories that may not appeal to the casual gamer in their mid 20's or 30's but is pretty cool to a 13 or 14 year old. :eyebrows:

So your not gonna get the engaging stories that made sense in the past and made everyone fall in love with the game. Now you're gonna get video game inspired crap stories like Marneus Calgar punching the Avatar of an ancient War God.

Wait. I know this. It is a video game for consoles called ... God of War?
Since I do not own a console I have no way of knowing, but I am told it is quite popular. About an angry dude that kills the entire list of the old greek gods? So Calgar is Cratos, Kretos, something?


Its "natural progession" when you are out of ideas, lazy or just plain bad at writing.

How about writing some characters with actual character?

Look at the Dark Eldar book, you've got people like Malys and Silicus who are more interesting than the Grey Knight bores, and there's not a slain Avatar or Bloodthirster to be found.

That is a good example. I like how the storys bring out the "character of the Dark Eldar without making them seem too silly or stupid evil.


"... Is the dark side stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive." :p

Indeed! ;)


That is a good point. Maybe he [Matt Ward] just should concentrate on what he can do good and leave the stuff he cant do properly to someone else?

Maybe they should use some of the real writers they have working for the Black Library write the background storys? Like Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Dan Abnett or Graham McNeill.
Come to think of it, McNeill did have a hand in writing many codexes while he was still working for Games Workshop, but the only one I can remember him writing by himself is Codex: Black Templars.
How did people like that one?

[lexus]
25-02-2011, 13:17
The story about Maugan Ra on Iyanden is still canon. Craftworlds are moon-sized with populations in millions at least, and Iyanden was the largest of them. There's a lot of room for Maugan to defeat one Trygon Prime - the fact that it's unmentioned in the Codex - Tyranids only shows that it was relatively insignificant in the grand scale.

Also, the description doesn't mention him killing any other Tyranids than the Trygon nor does it mention any other Eldar than his Reaper retinue. You're making the whole story seem larger than it really was.

The fact that Maugan's fight against a "Tyranid swarm" on Stormvald is mentioned doesn't mean that it was strategically important. There's a lot of little facts mentioned across the codex. As far as I know, the moon base on Gheist isn't exactly the lynchpin of Imperial defence, and it's still marked on the map.
Yeah, youd think that they would mention it if the Tyranid Swarm fought against one of the Phoenix Lords. Especially if you do mention him fighting off the Tyranids alone on some backwater world.

And Im not saying that battle was strategically important, Im just saying that Swarm doesnt mean 20 Tyranid warriors or something. The battle had to be of some notable size to justify mentioning in the codex. And still, say that it was only a small army of Tyranids, its still an insane feat. No one just murders through a whole army of Tyranids alone and wins. And then people say that Calgar punching an Avatar in the face is ridiculous, Id say that this is way more ridiculous.

Wyrmwood
25-02-2011, 13:23
... On the subject of Grots, a small woman akin to a Grot kills the Soul Drinker Captain/Commander at the start of the novel...

Iracundus
25-02-2011, 13:33
Maugan Ra did not single handedly "murder" an army of Tyranids. You keep repeatedly overstating what actually happened to the point where much of what you're saying didn't actually happen at all.

The actual article describes Maugan Ra being accompanied by a massive bodyguard force of 100 Dark Reapers and Dark Reaper Exarchs. Initially as the Tyanids advanced, the Dark Reapers fired at the general swarm, the Exarchs with their EML at the Tyranid Warriors, and Maugan Ra swept the Genestealers. The swarm absorbed the losses and kept advancing. A different tactic of blasting a trench to slow the Tyranids doesn't significantly disrupt their advance. In desperation, Maugan Ra appears to utilize Fast Shot to sweep across the swarm, but the kills still do not slow the swarm. Then the Trygon Prime surfaces and the advancing swarm hits the Dark Reapers. In this melee Maugan Ra blinds the Trygon and tries to climb on it to deliver the fatal blow but is impaled by a talon and knocked off. He uses some special power to become immovable (previously alluded to in the article) and the Trygon Prime which was diving down onto him ends up being impaled and split open by the Maugetar. With its death, the rest of the swarm falls into confusion and the surviving Dark Reapers mop up.

None of this is ridiculously overpowered or a single handed victory. His victory is achieved with the aid of his followers and it was a massed battle. Many of these pay with their lives, and Maugan Ra also ends up not being infallible because his tactics fail several times and he is wounded before he finally wins.

SgtTaters
25-02-2011, 15:10
Yeah, before he got to killing the big Synapse creature he first had to blast his way through wave after wave of smaller ones. In the end, he still killed a ridiculous amount of Tyranids that would have overrun most other factions (except maybe Ultramarines). Anyways, in the 5th edition of the codex Tyranids he defeats a whole swarm singlehandedly. Im not sure what they mean with swarm though.
There's arguably real world examples of feats as impressive, or more than what Maugan Ra did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Severloh
In D-Day, the german soldier Heinrich Severloh killed 2,500 Allied soldiers with his machinegun and was known as the Beast of Omaha
This happened in real life. One guy killed 2,500 and he wasn't a space elf either, he was just a guy with an automatic weapon in a well defended position.


Maugan Ra is an immortal ballistic kungfu master with a cannon that shoots ninja stars
He also has with him 100 space elf rocket kungfu disciples
They are in the super "last stand do or die" mega fortress inside their magic space elf moonship.
They are fighting space bugs using the strategy "run straight forward into gunfire"

a lot of bugs died.

come to think of it, Maugan Ra's possibly the only special character I've heard of famed for actually shooting things to death, though the highlight was still him swinging his s6 power weapon against a t6 monstrous creature with no inv sv...

KingDeath
25-02-2011, 15:30
There's arguably real world examples of feats as impressive, or more than what Maugan Ra did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Severloh
In D-Day, the german soldier Heinrich Severloh killed 2,500 Allied soldiers with his machinegun and was known as the Beast of Omaha
This happened in real life. One guy killed 2,500 and he wasn't a space elf either, he was just a guy with an automatic weapon in a well defended position.


He would have caused nearly all allied casualties at Omaha Beach then.
Sorry, but i am convinced that this number is a gross overstatement.
Indeed the Wiki article itself notes that those 2500 caused casualties ( which includes wounded and dead ) is a claim from his own autobiography.

Of course, the point that few, well entrenched soldiers ( or one, in Maugan Ra's case ) can overcome a large number of hostiles still stands.

Edit: The Beast of Omaha nickname is also questionable. Wiki's footnotes regarding this name link to two tabloids and one book
which deals with the Language of Tabloids :)

Brother Siccarius
25-02-2011, 17:30
The problem is that Marines seem to show no flaws, they are the perfect and good and generous and nobile heroes.


If you read their codexies then yes, they do seem that way. However, go anywhere else and you see they're just over-supplied pansies. Let's put it this way. Arnold Schwarzenegger's character in Commando, the guy runs around never having a bullet get near to hurting him and seems to never need to reload. In Predator his character was outgunned and out maneuvered over the entire movie and only through skill and luck he was able to win. The real hero isn't the guy who's over-trained, over-supplied, and over-protected for what he's doing it's the guy who has to struggle and fight to win.

Marines aren't heros unless you read their propaganda (IE codex), and the Chaos Marines are only wussy if you follow the propaganda (codex) of the guys who are supposed to be fighting them. The Chaos Gods "failure" to kill any particular character is like claiming a tornado "failed" to kill a certain person. Quite frankly that's actually more accurate of what the Grey Knights have to go through. Just look at what they had to do to win the first war for Armageddon. It's not a depiction of Chaos getting weaker, it's a depiction of Grey Knights losing their "noble sacrifice" mantle.

------
As to the Eldar's (dear god stop the complaining!) "wussification" it's made up entirely. It's a conflict between Eldar players thinking Eldar shouldn't ever lose and that their powerful people should never be beaten, and the belief of every other army that Eldar do lose on occasion especially when there's more than 10,000 years being covered. Eldar lose, not every Eldar is a tactical genius, and yeah, strange thing happen in battle. If they never had anything happen that didn't make 100% sense I would be disappointed. If you're complaining about the "humilitation" of the Eldar, then I invite you to play Orks or Guard, cause they aren't consistently humiliated in every codex ever written.:rolleyes:


There's arguably real world examples of feats as impressive, or more than what Maugan Ra did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Severloh
In D-Day, the german soldier Heinrich Severloh killed 2,500 Allied soldiers with his machinegun and was known as the Beast of Omaha
This happened in real life. One guy killed 2,500 and he wasn't a space elf either, he was just a guy with an automatic weapon in a well defended position.



I think Audie Murphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy#Medal_of_Honor_citation) is the more notable example, and probably close or closer to the actions described.
Add unarmored enemies, more advanced weaponry and better skills and it's slightly more believable.

HK-47
25-02-2011, 19:59
;5340910']And the Eldar codex contains no stories in where they utterly defeat another army in a slightly unrealistic fashion? Hmm, as a matter of fact yes. One Phoenix Lord with a 100 followers utterly destroying a Hive Fleet. Ok, the followers all die, but the Phoenix Lord kills them all. Thats unrealistic as well. Nobody cares though, because its the Eldar, and they arent as hated as the Ultramarines.

This isn't a fan boy reaction I'm having; I don't even play Eldar only Dark Eldar, I hate the story because it's a crappy story. It reads like it was written by a twelve year old who had just finished watching to many movies about medieval knights.

Israfael
25-02-2011, 23:19
Maugan Ra did not single handedly "murder" an army of Tyranids. You keep repeatedly overstating what actually happened to the point where much of what you're saying didn't actually happen at all.

Did Marneus Calgar single-handedly murder an army of Eldar?

Did he face off against the Avatar alone?

No, he didn't. That doesn't stop the massive amount of crying that takes place over the Avatar story regardless.

I find that people take the stories found within codices way too seriously. These things should be considered propaganda, and little else.

All factions have heroes who are "OTT", that's just how it is. As many of the angry people in this thread are Eldar, I give you the example of Prince Yriel, the Calgar of the Eldar.

He apparently can easily accomplish what Avatars cannot. His return tipped the battle for the Eldar. He casually swoops in, stomps the hive fleet - and grabs the "spear of awesomeness". He then proceeds to anime-style whirlwind his way to the heart of the Tryanid swarm, gutting the leader. But this is all alright though, because he's an Eldar. The spear has damned him, so it's "ok" that he's so stacked, right.

Or how about our good friend Maugan Ra, who wanders into the EYE OF TERROR, and returns with his craftworld. The same warrior who "locks his legs" to brace against the impact of a monstrous Tyranid creature diving on him, and slices the creature in two by doing so. But this is all "ok", it's just "slightly impressive".

The double standard for these stories is hilarious to me. I notice that a lot of peoples view of "GRIMDARK" means that humanity, and humanity alone is desperately fighting for survival. While xeno armies should all be flawless warriors; tacticians without equal. Never making tactical errors, or walking into ambushes. Only humans should be so flawed, right?

What a joke.

Korraz
25-02-2011, 23:29
Actually, Calger faced the Avatar one on one.

And most of Ra's stuff comes from EoT, doesn't it? That should say enough about the quality.

And GRIMDARK means that everyone struggles for survival, not that everyone is so *********** awesome.

Israfael
25-02-2011, 23:38
Actually, Calger faced the Avatar one on one.

You're mistaken. Again, I find very few people have actually read the story about which they make such hyperbolic claims.

The Avatar is being engaged by "Terminators of the 1st Company" equipped with power-fists and thunder hammers, as well as there being "Heavy weapons of every kind were brought to bear on the Avatar's glowing molten form".

This is all happening when Calgar moves to engage the creature. He kills it, but does not do so alone.


And most of Ra's stuff comes from EoT, doesn't it? That should say enough about the quality.

What does this add to the discussion? The fluff still exists for him, and it is just as "absurd" as any C:SM addition. People only speak out when the "larger than life" heroes are human.


And GRIMDARK means that everyone struggles for survival, not that everyone is so *********** awesome.

Then why isn't that what people ask for? It's always lamentations about humans overcoming the odds recently, and xeno's not being portrayed as superior in every way.

Everyone is allowed to be exceptionally gifted and powerful, unless they're a human.. and then they should be fighting for their lives. Fighting one futile battle after another.

Freak Ona Leash
25-02-2011, 23:48
People have persecution complexes, especially people on the internet.

The Thirty
26-02-2011, 01:08
Did Marneus Calgar single-handedly murder an army of Eldar?

Did he face off against the Avatar alone?

No, he didn't. That doesn't stop the massive amount of crying that takes place over the Avatar story regardless.

I find that people take the stories found within codices way too seriously. These things should be considered propaganda, and little else.

All factions have heroes who are "OTT", that's just how it is. As many of the angry people in this thread are Eldar, I give you the example of Prince Yriel, the Calgar of the Eldar.

He apparently can easily accomplish what Avatars cannot. His return tipped the battle for the Eldar. He casually swoops in, stomps the hive fleet - and grabs the "spear of awesomeness". He then proceeds to anime-style whirlwind his way to the heart of the Tryanid swarm, gutting the leader. But this is all alright though, because he's an Eldar. The spear has damned him, so it's "ok" that he's so stacked, right.

Or how about our good friend Maugan Ra, who wanders into the EYE OF TERROR, and returns with his craftworld. The same warrior who "locks his legs" to brace against the impact of a monstrous Tyranid creature diving on him, and slices the creature in two by doing so. But this is all "ok", it's just "slightly impressive".

The double standard for these stories is hilarious to me. I notice that a lot of peoples view of "GRIMDARK" means that humanity, and humanity alone is desperately fighting for survival. While xeno armies should all be flawless warriors; tacticians without equal. Never making tactical errors, or walking into ambushes. Only humans should be so flawed, right?

What a joke.

/applaud

Very well said, bro.

I nominate Israfael to be the defender of all things human on Warseer! :D

Mánagarmr
26-02-2011, 01:13
/applaud

Very well said, bro.

I nominate Israfael to be the defender of all things human on Warseer! :D

He's my brother in real life, and just let me say this is nothing. His impassioned speeches at our gaming club have made people buy entire new armies at the drop of a hat. His skill at oratory makes Lorgar seems socially awkward. ;)

On topic, I share my brothers stance on codex stories just being propaganda. Don't take them too seriously, you'll live longer.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
26-02-2011, 02:09
He's my brother in real life, and just let me say this is nothing. His impassioned speeches at our gaming club have made people buy entire new armies at the drop of a hat. His skill at oratory makes Lorgar seems socially awkward. ;)

On topic, I share my brothers stance on codex stories just being propaganda. Don't take them too seriously, you'll live longer.

Even if you take this stance, I think it's badly written propoganda and they should regulate Matt Ward to rules design.

Hellebore
26-02-2011, 02:37
Did Marneus Calgar single-handedly murder an army of Eldar?

Did he face off against the Avatar alone?

No, he didn't. That doesn't stop the massive amount of crying that takes place over the Avatar story regardless.


He stood on a bridge by himself for a day and a night and fought an entire ork army.

The avatar tried that and it lasted all of ten seconds before the bridge was blown out from under it and was destroyed.



I find that people take the stories found within codices way too seriously. These things should be considered propaganda, and little else.


Poor excuse for crap. It's crap, just because it's propaganda doesn't mean that's carte blanche to write ****.



All factions have heroes who are "OTT", that's just how it is. As many of the angry people in this thread are Eldar, I give you the example of Prince Yriel, the Calgar of the Eldar.

He apparently can easily accomplish what Avatars cannot. His return tipped the battle for the Eldar. He casually swoops in, stomps the hive fleet - and grabs the "spear of awesomeness". He then proceeds to anime-style whirlwind his way to the heart of the Tryanid swarm, gutting the leader. But this is all alright though, because he's an Eldar. The spear has damned him, so it's "ok" that he's so stacked, right.


Well you don't see Calgar at the edge of death simply to save his people. He recovers and moves on. Even when Yriel is calgaring it up he's still sacrificing in the process. Calgar always comes out of his battles. The gauntlets of Ultramar aren't killing him while he wears them.

And Yriel MADE MISTAKES. He screwed up and left his craftworld defenceless. Then rather than admit he'd made a mistake he got all pissy and took hist bat and left. Calgar is so flawless he can look at a battle and know exactly how to win (read the codex). So yeah, he and Calgar are very similar. :rolleyes:

Really disliked the retconn where Yriel takes over the job of the Avatar, was just silly and further devaluing greater daemons in 40k.



Or how about our good friend Maugan Ra, who wanders into the EYE OF TERROR, and returns with his craftworld. The same warrior who "locks his legs" to brace against the impact of a monstrous Tyranid creature diving on him, and slices the creature in two by doing so. But this is all "ok", it's just "slightly impressive".


You do know how many billions of people live in the eye of terror right? His own craftworld was in there, so it's not like it's impossible to get into. He also had the use of the webway which is a cheat. I'm sure the Imperium would have far greater successs at getting into the Eye if they could slip in the back door and never have to come up against the millions of chaos forces between Cadia and the eye.



The double standard for these stories is hilarious to me. I notice that a lot of peoples view of "GRIMDARK" means that humanity, and humanity alone is desperately fighting for survival. While xeno armies should all be flawless warriors; tacticians without equal. Never making tactical errors, or walking into ambushes. Only humans should be so flawed, right?

What a joke.

And your fallacious logic is hilarious to me. You selectively report on background to support your own position because you've started from a fallacious position and are just trying to make sure everything fits that. Evidence first, conclusion second. Remember that if you want to logically discuss something. Concluding something and then selectively reporting to prove your point just makes you look biased.

Calgar is a Mary Sue, by the DEFINITION of a Mary Sue. Yriel, whilst definitely up there on the stupidometer in terms of 40k characters, is NOT a Mary Sue because he is shown with REAL flaws that have REAL consequences and his pride blinds him to them.

You've taken single instances of background and defined the entirety that way. Calgar's Avatar fight is one of MANY instances, but all are universally awesome for calgar. Yriel's hive tyrant fight is one of MANY instances, but NOT all of them are awesome for Yriel.

QED.

Hellebore

AkredtheChosen
26-02-2011, 02:37
After much lurking on this thread I've finally decided to comment.

Israfael and Managarmr, thank you for some balance! I would have to agree you guys. To treat the Codex's as fact or fluff concrete, it'll make your head spin!

While I do agree with you guys, and very few points on Chaos and such, I see things like this:

When I read something like the Avatar getting punched out by Calgar or something like Maugan Ra taking on the Swarm I take it with some salt. This is just me personally but I try to flesh out the story in my mind, add the details that may be missing. Perhaps the Ultramarines were taking heavy casualties leading them to display "Ork" like tactics. Like Israfael had mentioned, Calgar engaged the Avatar, after the First Commpany Terminators and Heavy weapons got to it.

Now I am a fan of some the Black Library Novels which I know some people on Warseer don't see as fluff cannon or what not, but for me they add the close to what might have actually happened then the Codex. Things like the Crimson Fists defense of their home, the struggles at Helsreach, the amount of sacrifice, the thoughts, the doubts, the reasoning's.

This of course is just the way I look at it....

Israfael
26-02-2011, 03:09
He stood on a bridge by himself for a day and a night and fought an entire ork army.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the Avatar whine-fest you regularly take part in. It also doesn't change what I said in the least, every codex has "larger than life" characters.


Poor excuse for crap. It's crap, just because it's propaganda doesn't mean that's carte blanche to write ****.

Your opinion doesn't pass for fact oddly enough Hellebore. Some people enjoy the fluff within said codices, and the stories are definitely "OTT", but that doesn't mean they're "****" because you say so.


Well you don't see Calgar at the edge of death simply to save his people. He recovers and moves on. Even when Yriel is calgaring it up he's still sacrificing in the process. Calgar always comes out of his battles. The gauntlets of Ultramar aren't killing him while he wears them.

Oh please, save it! Yriel exists in a non-advancing storyline. He will never pay that terrible price for his people. His "OTT" spear of cheese has no downside aside from the emo implications of his soul slowly burning away. In the meantime, he beats down Swarm Lords like they're drunken Guardsmen. What a terrible price to pay. :rolleyes:


And Yriel MADE MISTAKES. He screwed up and left his craftworld defenceless. Then rather than admit he'd made a mistake he got all pissy and took hist bat and left. Calgar is so flawless he can look at a battle and know exactly how to win (read the codex). So yeah, he and Calgar are very similar. :rolleyes:

Eldar being emotionally unstable isn't new or unique. Because he has a hissy-fit and leaves his people to die doesn't make his incredible feats less absurd.

Calgar being a masterful tactician is all he has. That's his "it thing". The Ultramarines are the fairly bland vanilla of the astartes, the Ultramarines only have one thing going for them, being so gifted at command. So I would hope he would have a decent grasp of tactics as a Chapter Master for one of the most logistically / tactically gifted chapters out there.


Really disliked the retconn where Yriel takes over the job of the Avatar, was just silly and further devaluing greater daemons in 40k.

Like I said, every faction has a hand in it.


You do know how many billions of people live in the eye of terror right? His own craftworld was in there, so it's not like it's impossible to get into. He also had the use of the webway which is a cheat. I'm sure the Imperium would have far greater successs at getting into the Eye if they could slip in the back door and never have to come up against the millions of chaos forces between Cadia and the eye.

And those "people" are the thralls and playthings of demons, or dangerous mercenaries. There's no "Dave the Mailman" in the Eye, it's a pretty rough place. With Eldar being the caviar of souls, you would think Eldar there would be as vulnerable as young Asian school-girls at a tentacle demon convention, yet he just used the "backdoor" via the webway, and casually floated his Craftworld to safety. "Don't mind me, just floating this small-moon out of your territory."


And your fallacious logic is hilarious to me. You selectively report on background to support your own position because you've started from a fallacious position and are just trying to make sure everything fits that. Evidence first, conclusion second. Remember that if you want to logically discuss something. Concluding something and then selectively reporting to prove your point just makes you look biased.

Lets see if you could fit fallacious a few more times into your rambling. :rolleyes:

You are adeptly skilled at typing a block of text while saying nothing, Hellebore.

I gave glaring examples of "OTT" Eldar heroes, and your best reply is that in your opinion, the Marines are worse, as if that makes the Eldar cases alright. Since Eldar heroes have small, petty, personality flaws. It's somehow easy to swallow the tripe written about them. You argue opinion as fact, omit the parts of my argument you have no response for, and attack others as being "biased" when they don't share your view. Fitting, considering you're coming off as a complete fanboy as of the moment, only supporting my earlier points.


Calgar is a Mary Sue, by the DEFINITION of a Mary Sue. Yriel, whilst definitely up there on the stupidometer in terms of 40k characters, is NOT a Mary Sue because he is shown with REAL flaws that have REAL consequences and his pride blinds him to them.

A Mary Sue is found in FANFICTION, so your DEFINITION is faulty from the start, Hellebore.

What you consider flaws don't somehow water down the retardation that is Yriel. You make excuses for your factions heroes, but hop on your soap-box and rage when anyone else has an equally herculean feat accomplished.


You've taken single instances of background and defined the entirety that way. Calgar's Avatar fight is one of MANY instances, but all are universally awesome for calgar. Yriel's hive tyrant fight is one of MANY instances, but NOT all of them are awesome for Yriel.

My entire stance this whole time is that all codices have absolutely silly fluff, and should be taken as propaganda. It doesn't matter who is the most common offender, it's everywhere.


QED.

quod erat demonstrandum? Hah. :rolleyes:

You're an Eldar apologist, Hellebore, and incredibly stubborn. That doesn't mean that you're right, simply because you think so.


Israfael and Managarmr, thank you for some balance! I would have to agree you guys. To treat the Codex's as fact or fluff concrete, it'll make your head spin!

I agree wholeheartedly. It's unfortunate that Hellebore is going to suffer a heart attack with how seriously he takes codex battles.

Charlie Scene
26-02-2011, 03:25
Hellebore calling others biased, whooo boy. Now we've seen everything on Warseer.


you would think Eldar there would be as vulnerable as young Asian school-girls at a tentacle demon convention

Quote worthy to the extreme! :D

On topic, I got the feeling that Draigo's story is to represent the futile struggle against Chaos. He tears down cities and burns down jungles that respawn the moment he leaves the area. Nothing he does has any significant meaning.

AkredtheChosen
26-02-2011, 03:32
I am thinking the same about Draigo's story. Sure its full of OTT stuff, but the deeper meaning of it all is that....Chaos doesn't give a rats tail what destruction he causes.

The chaos gods know that this Draigo can not destroy them so why bother crushing him. To them he is probably amusing in his attempts.

Israfael
26-02-2011, 03:53
I got the feeling that Draigo's story is to represent the futile struggle against Chaos. He tears down cities and burns down jungles that respawn the moment he leaves the area. Nothing he does has any significant meaning.

I felt the same. I got a Sisyphus vibe from the story. He is nothing more than a plaything of the Dark Gods, kept around for amusement.


I am thinking the same about Draigo's story. Sure its full of OTT stuff, but the deeper meaning of it all is that....Chaos doesn't give a rats tail what destruction he causes.

The chaos gods know that this Draigo can not destroy them so why bother crushing him. To them he is probably amusing in his attempts.

Agreed.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
26-02-2011, 03:58
I am thinking the same about Draigo's story. Sure its full of OTT stuff, but the deeper meaning of it all is that....Chaos doesn't give a rats tail what destruction he causes.

The chaos gods know that this Draigo can not destroy them so why bother crushing him. To them he is probably amusing in his attempts.

I think you're reading too much into it, what Matt Ward wrote wasn't Cormac Mcarthy or William Golding symbolism and themes. I'm sure his intention was to make Draigo seem like the ultimate daemon killer.

The fact that Draigo can survive in the realm of Chaos, crush the chosen of the gods and break into the gods' strongholds on a regular basis probably doesn't make him "amusing."

Ichigo
26-02-2011, 04:02
I think you're reading too much into it

I was going to say the same of the doomsayers in this thread, informing us all that the sky is falling because of one codex characters fluff.

If Matthew Ward causes you to experience such intense emotions, and dislike. I'd suggest you step away from the hobby for a while. It's just a game in the end, guys.

/chill pill

ORKY ARD BOYZ
26-02-2011, 04:07
I was going to say the same of the doomsayers in this thread, informing us all that the sky is falling because of one codex characters fluff.

If Matthew Ward causes you to experience such intense emotions, and dislike. I'd suggest you step away from the hobby for a while. It's just a game in the end, guys.

/chill pill

Not to bring this off topic any more but...

I'm just saying, I'm pretty sure most people that participate in these discussions just exaggerate their language when they're on their computers to get their point across, plus it'd be boring it everyone just moderated their language.

The Red Pilgrim
26-02-2011, 04:08
I'm sure his intention was to make Draigo seem like the ultimate daemon killer.

Assumption =/= Fact


The fact that Draigo can survive in the realm of Chaos, crush the chosen of the gods and break into the gods' strongholds on a regular basis probably doesn't make him "amusing."

I much prefer AkredtheChosen and Charlie Scenes take on it. It makes for a very dark story if you allow it to take on depth. I like it.

TLDR: Grand master of an order designed to fight daemons does just that, film at 11.

Son of Sanguinius
26-02-2011, 04:45
I find it hilarious that Hellebore is "stubborn" and an "eldar apologist" because he hasn't conceded the point. With this being an internet discussion about a fantasy game, I think we should resort to "agree to disagree" before insinuating ignorance or stupidity.

Back to the original topic, I don't agree with this idea that the codices are propaganda. GW knows very well that the majority of individuals who read the background in the army books take them at face value. They know what they are publishing, and that the fan base takes it seriously. Moreover, they know that a majority of us long time players will keeping playing and buying, and that their target audiences are attracted by stories of insane heroics. It's not hyperbole, myth, or fanciful tales. When GW says Draigo stomped around the Eye of Terror and ransacked the domains of the gods, they mean it.

Moreover, it's rather hypocritical to pick and choose what is propaganda and what isn't, and we are all guilty of it because we all have various levels of suspended disbelief.

The sad part is that when you look at all of the things like Sanguinor equaling the achievements of his primarch, Maugan Ra cutting a bio-titan in half, Wazzadakka destroying a titan with his bike and his klaw, Marneus' long list of poorly written exploits, or Draigo being completely safe in the realm of chaos side by side, none of them are objectively heroic.

Israfael
26-02-2011, 05:00
I find it hilarious that Hellebore is "stubborn" and an "eldar apologist" because he hasn't conceded the point. With this being an internet discussion about a fantasy game, I think we should resort to "agree to disagree" before insinuating ignorance or stupidity.

He explained away badly done Eldar fluff, and condemned the Marine equivalent in the same breath. What would you call that, exactly, Son of Sanguinius?

I'm more than happy to "agree to disagree", as I don't take these discussions beyond being a friendly exchange of opinions. The problem is, instead of accepting that it's prevalent in all codices, and the game at large is to blame - people vilify Marneus Calgar and Matt Ward. That's what bothers me, and motivated the discussion here. I consider it unfair and hypocritical. People in glass houses, and all that. ;)


Back to the original topic, I don't agree with this idea that the codices are propaganda. GW knows very well that the majority of individuals who read the background in the army books take them at face value. They know what they are publishing, and that the fan base takes it seriously. Moreover, they know that a majority of us long time players will keeping playing and buying, and that their target audiences are attracted by stories of insane heroics. It's not hyperbole, myth, or fanciful tales. When GW says Draigo stomped around the Eye of Terror and ransacked the domains of the gods, they mean it.

Several people in this very thread, including myself specifically mention how we don't take it that seriously, yet you make claims that the "majority" of the player-base does exactly that.

Where are you getting the information to state something like that as a fact?


Moreover, it's rather hypocritical to pick and choose what is propaganda and what isn't, and we are all guilty of it because we all have various levels of suspended disbelief.

I respectfully disagree. What is canon to one fan is "garbage" to another. We see that very idea heavily reinforced whenever Black Library works are discussed. People have the freedom to pick and choose the background and conspiracy theories that suit them, as there is no "canon" really.


The sad part is that when you look at all of the things like Sanguinor equaling the achievements of his primarch, Maugan Ra cutting a bio-titan in half, Wazzadakka destroying a titan with his bike and his klaw, Marneus' long list of poorly written exploits, or Draigo being completely safe in the realm of chaos side by side, none of them are objectively heroic.

This again is why I can't take it as anything other than propaganda. Every faction has heroes achieve ridiculous feats.

It's all in good fun. :D

Iracundus
26-02-2011, 05:08
The same warrior who "locks his legs" to brace against the impact of a monstrous Tyranid creature diving on him, and slices the creature in two by doing so. But this is all "ok", it's just "slightly impressive".


If you're going to argue a point, at least get the facts straight. Maugan Ra's taking out of a Trygon Prime is nowhere near the level of invulnerable Superman syndrome that Matt Ward's new characters have.

Maugan Ra didn't just "lock his legs". Nowhere in the article does it say that. It is portrayed as a mystical ability, similar to how some martial arts people talk about rooting themselves to the ground.



Maugan Ra is said to be able to beocome immovable at will...To this end, the heavy leg armour and boots of the Dark Reaper are fitted with sensitive stabilisers, as well as clamps which secure the Aspect Warrior to the ground. Inthis way they echo their forefather's implacable nature...

...Uttering a single syllable, the Harvester of Souls became as immovable as rock. Maugan Ra, the Harvester of Souls, WD 284

The ability is not just the character being so awesome just because he is. It is a mystical ability that like Exarch powers comes from the pool of psychic energy within the suit. It is no different from say Asurmen's Battle Fate ability allowing him to survive against power weapons or even Titan scale weaponry. There is precedent for such supernatural abilities among Exarchs and Phoenix Lords already in the Codex so Maugan Ra exhibiting another relatively minor power is not that far fetched than someone simply being so awesome that no one can stand before him.

Also, the Maugan Ra story shows his flaws as his tactics failed multiple times against the Tyranids and he himself was wounded:



Suddenly, a taloned claw whipped across from the monster's midsection and speared Maugan Ra through the chest. He lost his grip as the serrated claw ripped free, and fell into the sea of aliens below. WD 284

Again and again he has to change his tactics after his earlier attempts fail and it is only at the end that he succeeds. Even then, final victory is only achieved with the aid of his surviving followers:



All around the Phoenix Lord, the small knot of surviving Dark Reapers gave a great shout, for the smaller aliens were fleeing in panic at the psychic shockwave caused by the death of the great beast. Once more, they took up their reaper launchers, and began to drive off the remainder of the swarm with methodical disciplined volleys.

This is contrasted with the more recent stuff where Mat Ward's characters show no real failures, make no mistakes of any real note in their decisions, while singlehandedly defeating ridiciculous numbers of enemies with no assistance and again singlehandedly destroying major enemy strongholds. There is little sense that there was any real cahnce of failure at any point during their endeavor and without risk of failure, the value of success is demeaned.

Israfael
26-02-2011, 05:22
If you're going to argue a point, at least get the facts straight.

Maugan Ra didn't just "lock his legs". Nowhere in the article does it say that. It is portrayed as a mystical ability, similar to how some martial arts people talk about rooting themselves to the ground.

You'll have to forgive me, my description of the encounter was done with the same level of hyperbole applied to the Avatar fight.

So because he uses a "mystical martial arts" move, it's "alright" that he braced himself against a monstrous creature? So if Calgar had use a "Black Bladed Lotus Strike!" attack when he swung his power-fist, it would of been perfectly acceptable that he killed the avatar. :rolleyes:

Mephiston was torn apart on this forum for being "OTT", in that his psychic might manifested in a melee form - allowing him to fight a carnifex. A smaller variant of Tryanid. Yet when an Eldar uses psychic "martial arts", it's acceptable to destroy a significantly larger foe? Hrm.

Why defend "OTT" stories for one faction, but attack another?


The ability is not just the character being so awesome just because he is. It is a mystical ability that like Exarch powers comes from the pool of psychic energy within the suit. It is no different from say Asurmen's Battle Fate ability allowing him to survive against power weapons or even Titan scale weaponry.

.. and that isn't silly to you? :confused:


Also, the Maugan Ra story shows his flaws as his tactics failed multiple times against the Tyranids and he himself was wounded.

What does "wounding" a technically immortal warrior really mean? It's as pointless as them displaying that Calgar was weakened and vulnerable after dealing the death-blow to the Avatar. It means nothing, because nothing will come of it.


Again and again he has to change his tactics after his earlier attempts fail and it is only at the end that he succeeds.

The Ultramarines are losing the fight until Calgar counters the Avatar alongside his men, and the Eldar lose heart at the sight of their god being bested in combat. That doesn't seem to matter though.

shadowhawk2008
26-02-2011, 05:23
One thing I do think is that when they kill off a character; he should not have rules in the next codex. Eldrad and Lysander would still be used, just now they are a farseer and and a chapter master.

Lysander is only Captain of the First Company and the overseer or something for the Phalanx. Not a Chapter Master. The Imperial Fists chapter master is Vladimir Pugh.


Personally I'd like to see more background on things like force organisation, institutions, beliefs, practices, secrets, treaties, tactics and controversies (etc), and less of an emphasis on descriptions of battle after battle and duel after duel.

I mean things like the battle for Macragge against the Tyranids is an important part of Ultramarine history, but endless examples of Ultramarines in battle (or whatever) smacks of 'filler text' to me. The same goes for Chaos or Grey Knights or anything else.

I would prefer my knowledge and appreciation of the setting and its factions deepened, with plenty of hooks, nods and winks for me to add my own ideas or write wargame/roleplay campaigns for my friends and me, not just repetitive "and so did he smite his enemy with unsurpassed badassery" war porn.

That is something lacking in the marine codices I believe. There should be more details on how some of the various chapters organize themselves. Like how in the Captain entry for C:SM one of the chapters calls it captains Master Bombardiers. Perhaps details on how the Crimson Fists 1st company has a certain amount of Terminators due to a special campaign. Maybe how the Iron Hands chapter is organized, more details than just various indepent clans with their own mobile city-fortresses. Things like that make the army fluff more engaging and more complete in my opinion.

Having examples of some of the most famous battles is one thing and the majority of those battles having the UM as heroes is another which is what C:SM did. I wanted an example of a Raven Guard or Salamander solo victory. Or maybe something to do with the Iron Hands. Not like 3-4 stories about the Ultramarines. I get they are the poster boys but comeon.


Well I do not disagree with the fact that those officials being killed would destablize the sub-sector the ways he would do it did seem a little far fetched, at one point he claims he has hypnotized a man and is able of convincing him to be a important dignitary to death in order to cause a trade war of some sort or another. Im not disputing that GK fluff had its bad points but Chaos still has it moments like that too. I personally think the whole govenor corruption thing is a cheap plot ploy that has been used to death. A inquistor arrives on a backwater planet to investigate rumours of a cult. He is opposed by the govenor but find evidence that the cult exists. He returns to the govenor who is suprise suprise a member/leader of the cutl and is orchestrating a massive rebellion.

He hypnotized the man with hand signals. He himself is an agent of Chaos and knows a few tricks about manipulation and deception and so on. How is that so OTT? Would it have been better for you if he was a psyker and had mind-controlled the guy directly?


... On the subject of Grots, a small woman akin to a Grot kills the Soul Drinker Captain/Commander at the start of the novel...

She killed him with a poisoned knife I believe when he wasn't looking (basically they took her to be a child and not a threat at all). And the wound was in an exposed area between armour plates.

Son of Sanguinius
26-02-2011, 05:26
He explained away badly done Eldar fluff, and condemned the Marine equivalent in the same breath. What would you call that, exactly, Son of Sanguinius?

If you're referring to the Yriel v. Calgar debate, he did not explain away the poor written heroics for Yriel. He was explaining that, in his opinion, Yriel's situation is not at drastic as Calgar's because Yriel is more of a three dimensional character with printed flaws. Calgar has no flaws of any kind.

In fact, he lamented earlier in the thread about the fact that GW retconned to make Yriel kill the Hive Tyrant leading the swarm instead of the Avatar.

He's making two arguments, that I can see. 1) These ridiculous heroics are out of hand across the board (which I think you agree with) and 2) that the Marine heroics are far and away the most over the top of them all, violating years of established background with the easily assumable goal of riding the cash cow.


I'm more than happy to "agree to disagree", as I don't take these discussions beyond being a friendly exchange of opinions. The problem is, instead of accepting that it's prevalent in all codices, and the game at large is to blame - people vilify Marneus Calgar and Matt Ward. That's what bothers me, and motivated the discussion here. I consider it unfair and hypocritical. People in glass houses, and all that. ;)

Matt Ward should be chastised for his recent writings. They are hurting the credibly of a universe with unique flavor and incredible depth. You can't have depth when someone goes and ignores the measuring sticks every time he picks up the pen.


Several people in this very thread, including myself specifically mention how we don't take it that seriously, yet you make claims that the "majority" of the player-base does exactly that.

Where are you getting the information to state something like that as a fact?

Claiming not to take it seriously and the actual act are very different. The fact that you are still debating this means you are taking it seriously. I ALWAYS take it seriously and I hate debating with people who don't take it seriously. It's like I'm back in school, playing sports, and I get stuck on the team who doesn't care if they win or lose.

When I say "agree to disagree", I don't mean to walk away from the discussion. I mean that I want people to realize that if they truly think someone else is not going to abandon their stance, to respect their opinion rather than devolve into name calling, and then move on to a new point.

I'm getting this information on a combination of my own personal experience with other players (I've played and discussed warhammer in six U.S. states now) and my years discussing this on the internet, and then combining that experience with a few assumptions that I think are logical: GW is expanding, meaning their customer base is increasing; GW is a business, whose primary concern is making money; and finally, we nerds are hopelessly addicted to our games.

Don't deny it. You know you are. :D


I respectfully disagree. What is canon to one fan is "garbage" to another. We see that very idea heavily reinforced whenever Black Library works are discussed. People have the freedom to pick and choose the background and conspiracy theories that suit them, as there is no "canon" really.

Canon does exist. Is it still 40k if you take out the warp? Or say that there can be female Space Marines? Or say that the Emperor never existed? Or that Sigmar is a primarch? There are lines that should never be crossed, and while everyone is allowed their opinions on those lines, I think the writers should be more concerned about violating those lines without well thought out explanation. I think the fanbase deserves to understand why Draigo can walk the physics-warping Eye of Terror safely rather than just being told he did.


This again is why I can't take it as anything other than propaganda. Every faction has heroes achieve ridiculous feats.

It's all in good fun. :D

If you do see it all as propaganda, why read them in the first place? That's a serious question, by the way.

It reminds me of the Stories and Art forum here on Warseer. One member asked what we thought of him making up fake battle reports with accompanying artwork/model pictures. I don't know if he responded to me, but I told him I thought that if he's good enough to write a fake battle report and make it seem real, put that talent to use writing a real short story instead. GW's authors, especially Matt Ward, should do the same. Tell us about realistic victories. They don't need to be impossible to be cool.

Iracundus
26-02-2011, 05:31
So because he uses a "mystical martial arts" move, it's "alright" that he braced himself against a monstrous creature? So if Calgar had use a "Black Bladed Lotus Strike!" attack when he swung his power-fist, it would of been perfectly acceptable that he killed the avatar. :rolleyes:

If that was part of the core precedent and concept of the character of Calgar and if he had always been described as being a conglomeration of a pool of powerful spirits capable of displaying supernatural powers, yes. But he isn't.

In contrast, Maugan Ra's displayed abilities are in keeping with the original archetype of a wandering immortal martial arts master.



Mephiston was torn apart on this forum for being "OTT", in that his psychic might manifested in a melee form - allowing him to fight a carnifex. A smaller variant of Tryanid. Yet when an Eldar uses psychic "martial arts", it's acceptable to destroy a significantly larger foe? Hrm.

Mephiston's original conception in the Angels of Death Codex does not portray such a depiction of a SM being so powerful as to match a Carnifex single handedly. Also, you again neglect that in the Maugan Ra story, Maugan Ra isn't being described as individually being so strong he can destroy the creature with bare hands. The creature ends up being destroyed because it dives down on him and his powered blade with its full weight. There is a difference in who is being the active actor, and Maugan Ra's victory is really more taking advantage of his compromised position than him being individually super powerful.

A situational power is a more limited thing than outright more powerful stats that work all round constantly.



Why defend "OTT" stories for one faction, but attack another?


The Maugan Ra story isn't that over the top. He didn't defeat the Tyranids single handedly. His battle was just one part of the greater conflict for Iyanden, and his failures during the battle mean he wasn't infallible or invulnerable.



What does "wounding" a technically immortal warrior really mean? It's as pointless as them displaying that Calgar was weakened and vulnerable after dealing the death-blow to the Avatar. It means nothing, because nothing will come of it.

The wounding and fall from the creature's back was the failure of his original plan to kill it. He has to improvise a new plan after the failure, just as each time earlier in the story he had to try a new tactic after the earlier one failed.




The Ultramarines are losing the fight until Calgar counters the Avatar alongside his men, and the Eldar lose heart at the sight of their god being bested in combat. That doesn't seem to matter though.

There is no sense the Ultramarines are losing the fight after all those earlier paragraphs depicting how perfect Calgar is at planning and directing the battle with glances while still simultaneously fighting in close combat. Over and over again it is about how with effortless ease Calgar's decisions are infallible and defeat the Eldar.

I am not defending the Eldar alone. Ludicrous Eldar background is equally undesirable, such as Cruddace's Tyranid Codex which does depict a ludicrous bit about Maugan Ra single handedly defeating a Tyranid swarm. However the bulk of the increasingly escalating level of power is to do with SM and in particular the SM that Matt Ward pumps out as he seems fixated on trying to create flawless paragons whereas throughout history the tales of heroes have been of interest because they were not flawless.

fizzelopeguss
26-02-2011, 05:37
Save your money from the herpy derp derp codices and spend it towards the FFG books instead.

Israfael
26-02-2011, 05:51
If you're referring to the Yriel v. Calgar debate, he did not explain away the poor written heroics for Yriel. He was explaining that, in his opinion, Yriel's situation is not at drastic as Calgar's because Yriel is more of a three dimensional character with printed flaws. Calgar has no flaws of any kind.

Absurd writing is absurd writing. I don't care if Yriel has a gambling addiction and a mistress on the side. He shouldn't casually destroy a Tyranid menace that outwits Avatars.


In fact, he lamented earlier in the thread about the fact that GW retconned to make Yriel kill the Hive Tyrant leading the swarm instead of the Avatar.

So then why defend it? It's equally bad, but he still attempts to make it seem less comedic than Marine equivalents, as if that's some sort of victory. "We're not quite as awful!"


He's making two arguments, that I can see. 1) These ridiculous heroics are out of hand across the board (which I think you agree with) and 2) that the Marine heroics are far and away the most over the top of them all, violating years of established background with the easily assumable goal of riding the cash cow.

I agree with the first point, definitely. It is all over the place. I do however disagree with the Marines being the worst offenders when there is fluff of Orkz casually killing titans and the like. I think everyone is equally guilty. The bad writing has been a slow creep across the entire hobby, hence me being tired of Marines being called-out, as if they and Matt Ward alone are responsible for the state of things.


Matt Ward should be chastised for his recent writings. They are hurting the credibly of a universe with unique flavor and incredible depth. You can't have depth when someone goes and ignores the measuring sticks every time he picks up the pen.

He's writing some bad fluff, yeah, but he isn't alone.


Claiming not to take it seriously and the actual act are very different. The fact that you are still debating this means you are taking it seriously. I ALWAYS take it seriously and I hate debating with people who don't take it seriously. It's like I'm back in school, playing sports, and I get stuck on the team who doesn't care if they win or lose.

I won't force you to debate me, Sanguinius, as I'm not "that guy". However, I assure you - I'm just arguing against hypocritical hatred. I don't have a dog in this fight, when I myself personally consider codices to be half remembered myths and legends, more than "I was here, this happened".

I enjoy the discussion, and take considering others opinions and thoughts seriously though, definitely. I don't want to portray myself as kicking back in my armchair with shades on, going "whateva", but I'm not nearly as emotionally invested as Hellebore and the like seem to be.


When I say "agree to disagree", I don't mean to walk away from the discussion. I mean that I want people to realize that if they truly think someone else is not going to abandon their stance, to respect their opinion rather than devolve into name calling, and then move on to a new point.

I'm aware of what it means to respectfully disagree, and I don't see how I've been "name calling".


I'm getting this information on a combination of my own personal experience with other players (I've played and discussed warhammer in six U.S. states now) and my years discussing this on the internet, and then combining that experience with a few assumptions that I think are logical: GW is expanding, meaning their customer base is increasing; GW is a business, whose primary concern is making money; and finally, we nerds are hopelessly addicted to our games.

Your view is anecdotal though, and varies from my own. While I've only played my game into two states, I've had vastly different experiences than you, and as such, would never argue them as fact - despite them appearing logical to me. I understand why you think the way you do, I just don't agree.

As for GW, GW is trying to expand, while also cutting shop staff down to a single man. That doesn't speak to me of growth. It speaks of a company that is trying to hold on. It would also explain the massive change to the style of fluff, trying something "new", because the "old" isn't selling.


Don't deny it. You know you are. :D

Oh, I don't dispute that. I have a Calibanite Lion tattoo, my addiction is absolute. :D


Canon does exist. Is it still 40k if you take out the warp? Or say that their can be female Space Marines? Or say that the Emperor never existed? Or that Sigmar is a primarch? There are lines that should never be crossed, and while everyone is allowed their opinions on those lines, I think the writers should be more concerned about violating those lines without well thought out explanation. I think the fanbase deserves to understand why Draigo can walk the physics-warping Eye of Terror safely rather than just being told he did.

Saying there is no true "canon" was a mistake on my part. Certain aspects of the fantasy-scape are drawn out for us, yes. There is a warp, the Emperor came from Terra, etc. Others, are as I said earlier, are second-hand accounts of battles, or half-remembered myths, or outright lies that we can't prove or disprove. I apply this all when reading a codex.


If you do see it all as propaganda, why read them in the first place? That's a serious question, by the way.

I love the Dark Angels, and I love the universe they inhabit. I also know to not take everything at face value in real life, let-alone in a codex designed to make a faction look good. Most people don't want their codices stories to be about Pyrrhic victories and brutal losses. So I take it all with a pinch of salt as a possibility of what happened.


It reminds me of the Stories and Art forum here on Warseer. One member asked what we thought of him making up fake battle reports with accompanying artwork/model pictures. I don't know if he responded to me, but I told him I thought that if he's good enough to write a fake battle report and make it seem real, put that talent to use writing a real short story instead. GW's authors, especially Matt Ward, should do the same. Tell us about realistic victories. They don't need to be impossible to be cool.

I agree.

Iracundus
26-02-2011, 06:00
Absurd writing is absurd writing. I don't care if Yriel has a gambling addiction and a mistress on the side. He shouldn't casually destroy a Tyranid menace that outwits Avatars.


So then why defend it? It's equally bad, but he still attempts to make it seem less comedic than Marine equivalents, as if that's some sort of victory. "We're not quite as awful!"


You are blurring the two chunks of background on Yriel. There was the original more balanced chunk written in the 1990's and there is the more recent depiction of Yriel with his spear.

Hellebore's comments about Yriel being a more three dimensional character relate more to the first and his disappointment with the retcon about the Avatar relates to the second.

In the first, Yriel is portrayed as a balanced character with the very serious flaw of pride. This is more than just a throwaway comment about his personality though as it has real consequences. It is what results in him refusing to engage in discussion over his actions leaving Iyanden undefended, and it results in him leaving Iyanden with a sizable portion of its fleet. His pride is also what makes him hesitate before returning to Iyanden to save it. If he had never left, or if he had hastened to Iyanden sooner, then Iyanden may have taken far fewer losses and prevailed against the Tyranids in a more decisive fashion. Yriel's strengths also were earlier more about his talent for space combat and his ability as a commander rather than just about individual fighting prowess.

The second chunk of background retconning Yriel and the Avatar is part of the undesirable spiral of individual OTT CC heroics that has become increasingly apparent since late 4th edition. Yriel being a close combat monster is not in keeping with his original core concept. That kind of individual CC prowess belongs in the realm of the Exarchs and Phoenix Lords.

Israfael
26-02-2011, 06:19
Boy, these replies are getting massive. Discussing this with several people is a chore, haha. :D


If that was part of the core precedent and concept of the character of Calgar and if he had always been described as being a conglomeration of a pool of powerful spirits capable of displaying supernatural powers, yes. But he isn't.

In contrast, Maugan Ra's displayed abilities are in keeping with the original archetype of a wandering immortal martial arts master.

He is described as being a master tactician though, in keeping with his Chapters strength. Something mentioned as being "OTT", as he's able to command and fight simultaneously.

He also doesn't kill the Avatar by himself, either. It's being lit-up by "heavy weapons of every type" and attacked by terminators. He doesn't do anything exceptional aside from masterfully passing down orders, which is his characters "it thing". Why is that any more absurd than a wandering, immortal, martial-artist?


Mephiston's original conception in the Angels of Death Codex does not portray such a depiction of a SM being so powerful as to match a Carnifex single handedly.

Arguing older codices as taking precedence is a bit silly, don't you think?

He's an Alpha level psyker who has overcome a psychic curse that grants one a slight amount of power similar to their primarch. I don't see why that's stretching realism. When immortal, pointy-eared Mr. Miyagi's are alright. That's just me though.


Also, you again neglect that in the Maugan Ra story, Maugan Ra isn't being described as individually being so strong he can destroy the creature with bare hands.

Well, to be fair, you avoided arguing my points against Yriel. ;)

On point though, is him using his hands rather than a "martial arts stance" and a lance that much worse? Especially considering his foe is much smaller?


The creature ends up being destroyed because it dives down on him and his powered blade with its full weight. There is a difference in who is being the active actor, and Maugan Ra's victory is really more taking advantage of his compromised position than him being individually super powerful.

A monstrous creature dies when it tackles him! That's madness. He makes himself so solid, that the creatures chitin yields before his petite, humanoid frame does.

We'll just have to disagree on what we consider absurd.


A situational power is a more limited thing than outright more powerful stats that work all round constantly.

It is more limited, yeah. It doesn't make it less insane though.


The Maugan Ra story isn't that over the top. He didn't defeat the Tyranids single handedly. His battle was just one part of the greater conflict for Iyanden, and his failures during the battle mean he wasn't infallible or invulnerable.

I never claimed he did beat the army single-handed, him beating the bio-titans little brother is what defies realism.


The wounding and fall from the creature's back was the failure of his original plan to kill it. He has to improvise a new plan after the failure, just as each time earlier in the story he had to try a new tactic after the earlier one failed.

Ok, but that doesn't alter my view of it. If I "failed" to punch a titan to death, but then kicked it, and won, I would still find it retarded.


There is no sense the Ultramarines are losing the fight after all those earlier paragraphs depicting how perfect Calgar is at planning and directing the battle with glances while still simultaneously fighting in close combat. Over and over again it is about how with effortless ease Calgar's decisions are infallible and defeat the Eldar.

While his defense is shown to be quite an impressive feat, it also shows it's not enough.

"Already hard-pressed, the Ultramarines' defence line buckled beneath this new onslaught, and Calgar knew that only desperate means could preserve victory."


I am not defending the Eldar alone. Ludicrous Eldar background is equally undesirable, such as Cruddace's Tyranid Codex which does depict a ludicrous bit about Maugan Ra single handedly defeating a Tyranid swarm.

That's all I'm saying! It's everywhere, and equally loathsome in any book.

EDIT - I just noticed all of my quotes say Son of Sanguinius.

Iracundus
26-02-2011, 06:32
He is described as being a master tactician though, in keeping with his Chapters strength. Something mentioned as being "OTT", as he's able to command and fight simultaneously.

Expecting someone to command a busy battle while simultaneously cracking heads is too much. It's fine to have someone have good command abilities if they are actually devoting their effort and attention to it, but Calgar is depicted as doing a perfect job with no strain or effort whatsoever despite simulataneously being a combat monster. It is being too good on too many fronts at the same time.

This is in contrast for example with the earlier Maugan Ra story. Maugan Ra is a fighter but he isn't portrayed as a commander. None of the Phoenix Lords are. Their area of expertise is in direct combat.



Arguing older codices as taking precedence is a bit silly, don't you think?

He's an Alpha level psyker who has overcome a psychic curse that grants one a slight amount of power similar to their primarch. I don't see why that's stretching realism, when immortal, pointy-eared Mr. Miyagi's are alright. That's just me though.

Don't misquote who you are discussing with. I am not Son of Sanguinius

The older Codices set out the core concepts and just because something is old doesn't mean it is automatically by default invalid. See also my earlier comment about the difference between a situationally useful power such as Maugan Ra's ability to become immovable, and all round stat boosting that is effective and useful in any situation.




On point though, is him using his hands rather than a "martial arts stance" and a lance that much worse? Especially considering his foe is much smaller?


Yes, it is far worse. Using a powered blade to tear up a gigantic monster is more believable than expecting a human to use their bare hands to do the same. That is the whole reason why people use tools and technology in the first place, because our bare hands are not as good as specialized tools.



A monstrous creature dies when it tackles him, that's madness. He makes himself so solid, that the creatures chitin yields before his petite, humanoid frame does.


The creature dives down on top of his extended blade. Much of your claims are simply inaccurate because you're not actually reading the story and are using hyperbole.



It is more limited, yeah. It doesn't make it less insane though.

It is far more reasonable to have better performance in one limited area that is only useful some of the time than to have all round super performance in all areas at all times. The latter all round performance is of greater utility. The very existence of limitations and conditions reduces the value compared to a no condition boost. That kind of same logical rationale is for example why in real life, for credit cards, shopping vouchers for only one particular store or that have expiry dates are a cheaper reward than cash back rewards.



I never claimed he did beat the army single-handed, him beating the bio-titans little brother is what defies realism.

Why should it? A Trygon Prime is not a bio-titan and it is a feat that is accomplishable on the table top.



Ok, but that doesn't alter my view of it. If I "failed" to punch a titan to death, but then kicked it, and won, I would still find it retarded.


Learning from a mistake and improvising a new plan to win is retarded? You seem to be expecting infallible characters then that always get it right the first time.



That's all I'm saying! It's everywhere, and equally loathsome in any book.

The examples written by Matt Ward are worse and if anything are getting even more OTT. His characters are repeatedly portrayed as being too good at everything with too little effort, with no discernable major flaws of any significance. Calgar is portrayed as not only being a master tactician, a total combat monster, but also a master administrator that is well loved by his subjects. Then, Matt Ward goes out of the way to squash even the very hint of any flaw, such as of pride, by saying anyone else might be prideful but oh no, not Calgar.

Yriel might have been a master at space combat strategy and tactics but he was susceptible to pride and he actually took detrimental actions because of it (i.e. saying he is prideful is not just a throwaway phrase). The Phoenix Lords though portrayed as master fighters, keep to that realm and do not intrude into being also master commanders and strategists. The characters either are flawed or have limits on their prowess, rather than being portrayed as masters of everything.

MajorWesJanson
26-02-2011, 06:35
The main issue it seems with Calgar is that he was able to down an Avatar with his fists, after it walked through heavy weapons fire and Thunder Hammer strikes. The fight was actually over in 6 blows.

1. Calgar rushes the Avatar who was dealing with other Terminators and Heavy Weapons fire, and sucker punches him.
2. Avatar turns and swings, barely missing.
3. Avatar swings again, wounding Calgar and damaging his armor.
4. Third swing of the Avatar, destroys one of Calgar's shoulder pads (the most heavily armored piece of his suit) and drives him to his knees.
5. Avatar attempts to behead Calgar, Calgar throws up his hand and the Gauntlets of Ultramar don't break, stopping the blade.
6. Taking advantage of the surprise of something actually stopping the Howling Doom, Calgar stands and makes a wide right swing which punches a hole through the Avatar's torso.

Problem 1: Size differential. The Avatar is larger than Calgar, by an unknown amount. There seems to be a range of sizes for Avatars, from slightly larger than a normal eldar to some 30 feet tall, going by various models and art. Lets assume the Avatar is twice the height of an Eldar warrior, plus a bit, so call him 16 feet tall. 2-3 feet of that is in his crest. So about 13 feet to eye level.
Calgar is in terminator armor, so somewhere around 9 feet tall, give or take a foot. Reaching up, he could probably reach the 8-9 foot mark, so on our 16 foot Avatar, about the mid to lower torso, or somewhere in the mid to upper abdomen.

The size differential also works to explain how the fight could have went. Calgar is effectively fighting with his fists, from below, while the Avatar has a sword that is somewhere from 6 to 8 feet long (assuming a 16 foot Avatar still).

The first step, Calgar gets a good hit in from his charge on the distracted Avatar. the Avatar turns and backs off, swinging, which misses because Calgar started in so close and could probably duck under the blade. The Avatar gets it's footing and swings again, glancing Calgar and cutting his armor open. A third swing, downward, catches Calgar in the shoulder and drives him to his knee.

The Avatar steps in to finish him off with a lateral swing to behead Calgar, who gets a gauntlet in the way. Instead of cutting through it, the blade is stopped. Wounded, Calgar takes the opportunity to counterattack while the Avatar is assessing it's options, and swings for the Avatar's torso, ripping into it (aiming for a wound caused by his first blow or the prior combat the avatar fought?) and destroying its spine.

Host body crippled, the Avatar's spirit returns to the Infinity Circuit, causing the rest of the host form to explode into fragments, and Calgar collapses from his wounds and exhaustion.

Problem 2: Strength differential. The Avatar has an unknown strength level, on the scale of a greater daemon or large Nid beastie. Calgar has the strength of an Astartes (though questionably stronger or more durable, as all four limbs are augmentic, and likely heavily reinforced), plus the enhancements of an artificed suit of Tactical Dreadnought Armor, and is wearing a set of power fists of unknown design and little known origin. End result, we really don't know the strength differential. The one point it matters is the block, where Wailing Doom is stopped by the Gauntlets of Ultramar.

The blow was intended to be a decapatation strike, so presumably a lateral blow. Calgar is on one knee, and blocks the blow with his left hand. We don't know which side the Avatar swung from, or which knee Calgar was on, so various levels of force being transferred can be inferred. Blow is stopped, energy transferred through gauntlet to armor and bionic arm down and across his body and torso armor (also possibly augmented) down into his legs (bionic and braced on the ground) and into the ground. Blow stopped, Calgar clamps his fist around the blade to trap it temporarily, stands, and swings a wide right hook into the Avatar's torso. If not for the gauntlets stopping the blade, he would be dead. It's also likely that without the terminator armor and augmentic body parts, and the fact that he was kneeling, the force would have pushed him away or knocked him over away from the Avatar, preventing the second hit.

Basically, the fight was not really decided by any sort of tactics, but the fact that Calgar managed to hit the Avatar first and stay in close. It rallied and was winning, but the combination of Wargear Calgar had managed a lucky block, and at the level these two were fighting, it only took one or two direct blows to win.




TL:DR version.
Calgar sucker punches distracted Avatar.
Avatar focuses on Calgar and quickly gains the advantage.
Avatar is about to kill Calgar when Calgar gets lucky and his Gauntlet stops the swing.
With the Avatar's sword out of the way, Calgar uses his other Gauntlet to get a direct hit on the Avatar.




Very short version:
Magic Power Fist crucial factor deciding the fight.