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Imma_De_Freakin_Pope
23-03-2006, 22:33
1. do you think that waywatchers are worth 24 pts/model?
-they do get skirmish, 2 handed weapons, lethal shot,forest stalkers, which means they work a lot like scouts, but it doed not matter if the enemy can see them or not, also get S5 in HtH, and they can shirmish, which brings me to my second question

2. is skirmishing as good as people say it is? do you think that you should pay the extra points for skirmishing, how do you use them to your best advantage?

DarkTerror
23-03-2006, 22:53
1. the best part of waywatchers is that they rarely die. Often worth it to use them in my opinion

2. the extra points for skirmishing what?

Keller
23-03-2006, 23:06
Well, it would depend on a lot of things, especially what else you like to take in your army. I've been on the recieving end of Way Watchers a few times as of late, and I can tell you, they hurt. Their high BS means you can almost always hit the enemy, and they themselves are much harder to be hit with shooting, meaning the enemy has to send a unit to take care of them, which the skirmishers can easily avoid. Even if they do get into combat, at 2 attack and high WS, they aren't exactly pushovers.
They can really compliment an army as well, since they have KB on their shots. Now this isn't usually something I concern myself with, since my armies are typically comprised of low- armor infantry units or Ogres (exempt from KB), but they can really add a punch to your army to handle knights and the like. Since most shots should hit your target, even a small unit can reliably kill any man-sized unit rather quickly, even if they have loads of armor.
However, it does come at quite a price. Using your Rare slot, and coming in at over 100 points for the smallest unit, you invest quite a bit in them, especially in smaller games.
Personally, I love the idea behind the Waywatchers, and would include them in my armies. I don't really like the forest spirits, though, so my WE army, should I even get one, would be mostly elves and rely on Way Watchers and War Dancers to make up for lack of high-strength attacks that Treemen and Kin can provide.



As for skirmishing, it is not such an easy decision. The ability to shoot, as well as move, more easily is always helpful for ranged units. I love my skirmishing Bowmen for my Empire army, especially compared to ranked bowmen. Archers aren't supposed to see combat, so you don't need the rank bonus which goes along with a standard unit.
However, since all WE ignore wood penalties, you don't really need the added movement rules either, though it is nice to be ablr to avoid enemies when they get near you. Also consider how expensive Glade Guard already are. By making them scouts, you are further reducing your numbers, which are already fairly small.

I'd say it comes down to two things. Do you want to be free of worry from deployment restrictions, in that you don't need to spread out to fire? or would you rather get more models on the table by not increasing the costs of your models? Do you want to line up and fire as many shots as possible, or be able to avoid enemies that get near?

I would say strike a balance. A few scout units can be used to help contain enemy movements. They can marchblock, bait charges, or just cause the enemy to send units to deal with them when they would otherwise set up more tactically. Too many scouts will hurt your army, in that you don't get as many shots as you could otherwise.

Imma_De_Freakin_Pope
23-03-2006, 23:06
1. the best part of waywatchers is that they rarely die. Often worth it to use them in my opinion

2. the extra points for skirmishing what?

usually skirmishers cost more then bulk units

Arduhn
24-03-2006, 00:35
if you get the minimum size unit it is only 120 points, with that you can pretty much guarentee taking out a war machine, possibly worth 100 points, anything else they do after they have almost earned back their points.

"Why are they so good vs warmachines?" you might ask, they can set up an inch away, they skirmish so that is good vs cannon, mortar, bolt thrower, etc. (though not vs hellblaster), they have two hand weapons each and will hit most things on 3+ as well as outnumbering them.

Imma_De_Freakin_Pope
24-03-2006, 01:18
keller - finally someone who agrees with me on waywatchers, also on the tree spirits, i try to include as many elves vs tree spirits as possible

arduhn - good point, i think i will add some in the upcoming tournament this weekend, could you look at my "revised wood elf army" in the tactics part, ans see what you think

Diego
24-03-2006, 04:12
"Why are they so good vs warmachines?" you might ask, they can set up an inch away, they skirmish so that is good vs cannon, mortar, bolt thrower, etc. (though not vs hellblaster), they have two hand weapons each and will hit most things on 3+ as well as outnumbering them.

No they can't.... not unless there is a wall that completely blocks LoS. Per the Direwolf FAQ, when placing scouts (and by extension Waywatchers) all units are treated as having 360 degree LoS.

DarkTerror
24-03-2006, 05:02
You're in very dangerous territory quoting Direwolf FAQ (as I learned myself). This is incorrect, units do not have 360 degree LoS. Also, remember the waywatcher rules Diego, which allow them to be placed in LoS.

Ganymede
24-03-2006, 05:18
During deployment, units do indeed project a 360 degree field of sight.

Imma_De_Freakin_Pope
24-03-2006, 05:50
actually it sais they can be placed either the same way as couts, or can be places anywhere (including line of sight), but must be 12" away from any enemy unit

DarkTerror
24-03-2006, 07:56
During deployment, units do indeed project a 360 degree field of sight.

please state reference

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-03-2006, 08:05
I believe it's in one of the Chronicles, but yes, units do have a 360 degree LoS for determining where you can deploy scouts.

Baindread
24-03-2006, 11:48
GW home page. Chronicles. Commentary:Skirmishers. Scouts.

"As Scouts have to deploy out of sight of the enemy, most Warhammer battlefields will only have a few places where Scouts can deploy. With regards to the deployment of Scouts, units are assumed to have a line of sight outside their normal arc of 90° to the front. The best way to think of this is to deploy the Scouts in a position where they cannot see the enemy, which by default means that the enemy cannot see them. This is to prevent Scouts ending up in an odd position deep inside the enemy deployment zone just because enemy units happen to be facing the front."

You´re welcome.

Fredmans
02-04-2006, 21:40
I think you should take Waywatchers merely on behalf of their coolness. I always try to use mine, and they're almost always worth their points. Reasons why?

1) They're extremely hard to kill (as long as you stick to forest), which means that you're denying your enemy victory points as well as table quarters.

2) They're one of the few things wood elves have against heavy cavalry. It's only 1 in 6 you say (KB), but there's six turns of shooting, meaning that a unit of 6 waywatchers should get at least 5 killing blows during the game. If those kills happen to be chosen knights, or grail knights, they're more than worth it.

3) Deployment within your opponent's army means march blocking from turn 1

4) A unit of waywatchers means that your opponent has to be very careful with his wandering wizards and heroes.

As for deployment, Waywatchers must be deployed without LOS, but can be set up closer than 10", or within LOS, but 15" away. They're far more deployable than scouts. You can set them up in woods, buildings etc, almost starting within the other player's army.

Things Waywatchers should look out for: Magic, auto-hit weapons, and Chaos Spawns. Using Waywatchers demands that you protect them from magic. Chaos Spawns have the annoying ability of giving rats about LOS and can blunder right through forest into your precious T3, S3 soon-to-be-dead über-scouts.

Waywatcher treat: Put them in the same wood as your opponent's scouts, but stay out of sight (2"). Other armie's scouts cannot deal with them in hand-to-hand or shoot-outs.

Pravus
03-04-2006, 11:43
I can tell you from personal experience that waywatchers don't like a beastherd to the face. Keep them away from fast or agile units and you should be fine - they're still T3, pointed eared nancies even with their high BS and two hand weapons.

Whether to take them or not - well Ireckon that all depends on the rest of your army. If you want to slow your opponent to a crawl and turn them into pin cushions at range I'd say take them. If you're an advocate of the "choppy wood elves of doom (tm)" approach you might have a better use for the points

drubenor
04-04-2006, 18:31
they're shure are,
I play woodies myself and I can tell you they have never ever have led me down bevore:D :angel:

Da GoBBo
04-04-2006, 20:37
2) They're one of the few things wood elves have against heavy cavalry. It's only 1 in 6 you say (KB), but there's six turns of shooting, meaning that a unit of 6 waywatchers should get at least 5 killing blows during the game. If those kills happen to be chosen knights, or grail knights, they're more than worth it.


Hehe, ye would have to be facing one really daft general if he allows for yer archers to shoot at his knights for 6 rounds.

Simon23
04-04-2006, 20:51
Killing blow is more useful for taking down characters than it is cavalry. You`ll kill as much cavalry with regular glade guard at half the cost, than with waywatchers.

Waywatchers are there to inhibit marching, charge artillery (one of our weaknesses), mage hunt, character snipe, encourage the enemy to go near woods (big mistake) and generally be a right pain the ass.

One unit of 6 is what I take in 2150. At 3k i`d have 2 units. :)

Da GoBBo
04-04-2006, 21:06
Character snipe? Last time I checked waywatcher had to shoot units around charrs first just like any other unit. Correct me if Im wrong though.

Simon23
04-04-2006, 21:28
Character snipe? Last time I checked waywatcher had to shoot units around charrs first just like any other unit. Correct me if Im wrong though.

No your not wrong, I was talking about lone mages. Because waywatchers would deploy after characters. :)

Steel_Legion
05-04-2006, 16:43
i played against way watchers once, waywatcher V ironbreakers...crap! they were amazing at picking em off

Fredmans
24-04-2006, 22:36
Hehe, ye would have to be facing one really daft general if he allows for yer archers to shoot at his knights for 6 rounds.

Of course, Da GoBBo, and especially if he would keep them within 15" as well. ;) I was just talking odds. If you shift targets and keep shooting at models with high cost (knights, infantry, lone generals or mages), you would score about 5 killing blows in a game. On top of that you would get the additional kills for failed armour saves.

Furthermore, a lucky roll with 2 or more 6's can be really devastating to your opponent. In my last game with them, I rolled 3 sixes out of 5 dice, killing 3 chosen knights in the first round of the battle.

I'm not saying they're invincible, but their potential in combination with how hard they are to take out make them well worth 120 pts.

Da GoBBo
24-04-2006, 23:38
Oh yes, I really do agree on that one. But you'll have to admit that killing 5 chosen knights is a bit too much to hope for. But even killing two will give you a huge advantage for the rest of the game, so yes, the serve their (this?) purpose really well.

jahorin
25-04-2006, 12:44
they do get the job done. last time i've played with 7 of them they manage to kill 2 dragon with KB. and when set up in a forest they are REALLY REALLY hard to hit. i don't leave home without them!

Keller
25-04-2006, 16:19
they do get the job done. last time i've played with 7 of them they manage to kill 2 dragon with KB. and when set up in a forest they are REALLY REALLY hard to hit. i don't leave home without them!

I take it you mean Dragon Princes? Killing Blow only works on man-sized models, so you couldn't kill any monsters with it, though you could get the rider.