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Dorack
24-02-2011, 11:13
Can the Dwarf's Rune of Challenge be used to force a unit inside a Watchtower to charge or flee, thus exiting the building?

Ive seen arguments on both sides, still unsure about it.

shelfunit.
24-02-2011, 11:48
Can the Dwarf's Rune of Challenge be used to force a unit inside a Watchtower to charge or flee, thus exiting the building?

Ive seen arguments on both sides, still unsure about it.

Sort of.

From pg 127 of the BRB


A unit that is Frenzied, or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building as close as possible to the enemy instead of charging

So whilst not actually charging, the unit will still be removed from the building.

Dorack
24-02-2011, 14:45
But some people argue something along the lines that the unit should be able to declare a normal charge in the first place, something units in the watchtower cannot normally do.

Malorian
24-02-2011, 14:48
From pg 127 of the BRB.

Seems to me from that quote that the unit would have 2 options:

1. 'charge' and exit the building on the side of the rune.

2. Flee and exit the building on the other side.

Tregar
24-02-2011, 14:57
But some people argue something along the lines that the unit should be able to declare a normal charge in the first place, something units in the watchtower cannot normally do.

Yeah, and the same people tend to believe that frenzied units don't have to test for frenzy while in a building. Show them the rules and they are generally amazed that they never knew they were wrong all along.

shelfunit.
24-02-2011, 15:42
But some people argue something along the lines that the unit should be able to declare a normal charge in the first place, something units in the watchtower cannot normally do.

Again I direct you (and "other people") to the quote...


or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building as close as possible to the enemy instead of charging

If the unit affected by the rune "cannot" normally declare a charge it still must exit the building.


Seems to me from that quote that the unit would have 2 options:

1. 'charge' and exit the building on the side of the rune.

2. Flee and exit the building on the other side.

I am of exactly the same opinion - although if the unit is blocked, it just needs to exit the building in any direction that takes it as close to the runed unit as possible.
EDIT: Also brings in to question what to do if the unit is unable to leave the building at all due to the proximity of units on all sides of the building...


Yeah, and the same people tend to believe that frenzied units don't have to test for frenzy while in a building. Show them the rules and they are generally amazed that they never knew they were wrong all along.

I think we all get caught in previous-edition-rules-syndrome at some point in our gaming lives - I know I have :angel:

Dorack
24-02-2011, 22:00
Thanks for the clear answers.

Bodysnatcher
24-02-2011, 22:14
What's the exact wording of the rune?

Lord Inquisitor
24-02-2011, 22:16
This question is essentially the same as with the Daemonic power Siren Song. The kicker here is the exact wording of the power:

Master Rune of Challenge:
'Nominate one enemy unit within 20" of the rune user. The unit must be able to charge and reach the rune user or the unit he is with according to the normal rules.'

Siren Song:
'Nominate one enemy unit within 20" of the Daemon- this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules.'

For completeness, here's Frenzy:
'If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so...'

And buildings:
'A unit that is Frenzied, or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building'

The arguments that the Master Rune/Siren song cannot be used is as follows. Because a unit inside cannot complete a charge against any enemy unit, it cannot be selected as a unit that "must be able to charge". Therefore the rune/song cannot be used as they are an invalid target.

Personally, I don't subscribe to this because the exact same logic would apply to Frenzy, if the building rules didn't explicitly state that Frenzy is affected (because units in buildings can't declare charges so Frenzy couldn't be triggered). Personally I think "otherwise forced to charge" gives implicit permission that units can be otherwise forced to charge. So I think both Master Rune and Siren Song do apply and have the effect of forcing a unit to abandon a building (the choice is front door or back!).

However, the arguments work both ways and I have had it ruled that Siren Song doesn't work on indoor units at tournaments. It's definitely one for the FAQ.

Kauzu
25-02-2011, 03:50
Oddly enough I think the rules clearly make units in a building ineligible targets for both siren song and the rune.

-both abilities specifically require a unit to be able to charge
-A unit cannot charge out of a building

The reason to put the note "otherwise forced to" would seem to explicitly preempt the use of either ability to function on a unit in a building by saying "no you can't ever charge" and the note about exiting the building clarifies the rule for a frenzied unit which is presumably affected prior to entering the building as well as providing a blanket coverage for nearly any situation that could ever result from new powers.

By that I mean if the line "must be able to charge" is ever removed from the description of master rune of challenge the rules would already accommodate the updated power.

Just my two cents

Tomalock
25-02-2011, 05:39
Lets take this a step further. What happens when you use the rune on a warmachine that is inside a building? By shelfunit's definition, "If the unit affected by the rune "cannot" normally declare a charge it still must exit the building," you can still force a warmachine out of the building even though it would be exempt from the rune in any other circumstance. I don't think that the rune, or siren song, was intended to be a method for bypassing existing rules that prohibit charges. If a unit is barred from charging, it is barred from charging, whether that rule is situational (as in the case of the temporary occupation of a building) or permenant (as in the case of warmachines never being allowed to charge).

Therefore rather than skipping the step of determining whether the unit is able to charge, you have to stop right there as that first check (is the unit "able to make a charge according to the normal warhammer rules") results in a no answer. Because it results in a no, you cannot go further. The rule for the rune does not state, "the unit must be able to make a charge using the normal rules for warhammer if it were not inside a building."

shelfunit.
25-02-2011, 07:00
Oddly enough I think the rules clearly make units in a building ineligible targets for both siren song and the rune.

-both abilities specifically require a unit to be able to charge
-A unit cannot charge out of a building

The reason to put the note "otherwise forced to" would seem to explicitly preempt the use of either ability to function on a unit in a building by saying "no you can't ever charge" and the note about exiting the building clarifies the rule for a frenzied unit which is presumably affected prior to entering the building as well as providing a blanket coverage for nearly any situation that could ever result from new powers.

By that I mean if the line "must be able to charge" is ever removed from the description of master rune of challenge the rules would already accommodate the updated power.

Just my two cents

I am begining to swing towards your view here - as you say, the "must be able to declare a charge... ...according to the normal rules" does look like it takes affect before the "otherwise forced to charge" section of the building rules - in order to be "forced to charge" they would have to be able to declare a charge in the first place. Bugger :(

Bodysnatcher
25-02-2011, 07:16
My view, for both the rune of challenge and siren song, is that you can't suck units out of a building with them.
We'll have to see if the question pops up in an FAQ somewhere though.

T10
25-02-2011, 10:59
Both the Master Rune of Challenge and the Siren's Song allow the the target unit the option of not charging in which case they must flee. If I recall correctly, a unit that fails a panic test while inside a building does not actually flee.

Can't the unit's simply opt not to charge and "suffer" the consequences?

-T10

Snake1311
25-02-2011, 16:32
You cannot pull units out of the watchtower this way, since they cannot complete the charge - and therefore aren't a viable target to start with.

All the confusion stems from this:



'A unit that is Frenzied, or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building'


which is somehorrible wording to be honest, they clearly didn't think about it very well. The way I'd 'logic' it is:

- 'external' charge forcers cannot target the garrison, since its not a viable target
- 'internal' compulsary movement rules (e.g. frenzy, random compulsary movement clauses, etc) do force the unit to come out.

H33D
25-02-2011, 20:35
The rules for the Master Rune of Challenge state that the unit must be able to charge and reach the bearer "according the the normal rules." I would say that the rules for buildings are not exactly 'normal rules' in fact they are quite different than the normal rules for charging. That and if a unit in a building flees as a result of a panic test, it exits the building as if it failed a break test, so that would be even better for the Dwarf player if they elect to flee.

Synnister
25-02-2011, 23:13
the rune and song won't affect models in the building because they have the must be able to charge language in their description.

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2011, 23:24
The Rune says the target must be able to reach the users or his unit according to the normal rules.
-Page 46, Dwarf book.

The normal rules for buildings are that you can't charge out of them, but instead must exit the building as close as possible to the enemy instead of charging
-Page 127, Rulebook.

The rune does state and reach though.
Clearly a unit in a building can never reach an enemy even if it is "charging" out of it.
So the rune won't be useable.

However, the Daemonic Gift Siren Song would work as the target unit merely needs to be able to charge, not charge and reach.

Simple enough really.

Kauzu
26-02-2011, 00:12
Siren song does still specify must be able to charge where as the building rules state a unit may not charge from them. Typically the not portion of the rules is the defining point for any related rule.

H33D
26-02-2011, 01:18
So basically everyone agrees that either-

A ) A unit may not be forced to exit a building by an item that forces a unit to charge, because items that force you to charge to not say that they will force a unit to leave a building in their description.

or

B ) A unit may be forced to exit a building by an item that forces a unit to charge because there are specific rules in the book for forcing a unit to charge out of a building.

And I hardly agree that the rules for charging out of a building count as the normal rules for charging. The normal rules just require you to have Line of Sight, be in the forward arc, and be able to complete the charge with equal to or less than a 90 degree wheel. As long as these requirements are met, the Master Rune of Challenge would work.

Lord Inquisitor
26-02-2011, 04:39
Oddly enough I think the rules clearly make units in a building ineligible targets for both siren song and the rune.

-both abilities specifically require a unit to be able to charge
-A unit cannot charge out of a building
The problem I have is that Frenzy also follows this logic. A unit inside a building may not declare a charge therefore the Frenzy "Ld check or charge" clause never kicks in, therefore the line about Frenzied troops being forced to abandon a building can never happen.

Therefore I would say "Frenzied or otherwise forced to charge" presumes that a unit inside a building is treated as if they could make a charge. Or that rule makes no sense.

Bodysnatcher
26-02-2011, 09:43
The problem I have is that Frenzy also follows this logic. A unit inside a building may not declare a charge therefore the Frenzy "Ld check or charge" clause never kicks in, therefore the line about Frenzied troops being forced to abandon a building can never happen.

Therefore I would say "Frenzied or otherwise forced to charge" presumes that a unit inside a building is treated as if they could make a charge. Or that rule makes no sense.

I would say they've made a special exemption with associated rules for frenzy, rather than intended it to be the default position when such a thing comes up.

theunwantedbeing
26-02-2011, 10:18
I would say they've made a special exemption with associated rules for frenzy, rather than intended it to be the default position when such a thing comes up.

It says "or otherwise forced to charge"
Siren song forces you to charge
The rune of challenge does as well(it has an extra clause that voids its use though)

Clearly not just for frenzy as they wouldn't have added that extra bit.

Bodysnatcher
26-02-2011, 13:44
It says "or otherwise forced to charge"
Siren song forces you to charge
The rune of challenge does as well(it has an extra clause that voids its use though)

Clearly not just for frenzy as they wouldn't have added that extra bit.

And siren song has (from the FAQ):

Q. Is Siren Song supposed to read that you have to charge the
Daemon with the Siren Song ability only if you are able to, as per the
normal Warhammer rules? (p94)
A. Yes.


I would say that you are unable to charge as per the normal rules, therefore siren song can't suck you out of a building.

T10
26-02-2011, 19:51
Master Rune of Challenge[/B] state that the unit must be able to charge and reach the bearer "according the the normal rules." I would say that the rules for buildings are not exactly 'normal rules' in fact they are quite different than the normal rules for charging. That and if a unit in a building flees as a result of a panic test, it exits the building as if it failed a break test, so that would be even better for the Dwarf player if they elect to flee.

Obviously what is missing are the "normal rules" for determining the quasi state of "should have been able to charge, but can't actually do so".

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
27-02-2011, 02:29
I would say they've made a special exemption with associated rules for frenzy, rather than intended it to be the default position when such a thing comes up.

Yeeeah, I'm not convinced. There isn't really any real explaination as to how you resolve this even, I mean, a unit in a building doesn't have an arc of sight for starters.

It's fundamentally just a poorly-worded rule and I find any case where a rule is self-defeating like this it's best to just take it at face value. If a unit is Frenzied or otherwise forced to charge, it leaves the building. Siren song and rune of challenge force a unit to charge so that falls under "otherwise forced to charge".

At the very least there's a strong case for RAI, so it'd be one for the FAQ.

If nothing else it's nice to have some things that can screw up deathstar units in buildings (WoC or High Elves for example can prove to be impossible to shift). Buildings are a really wonky part of 8th and forcing units to charge/abandon is a clear and defined weakness for units in buildings laid out in the building rules.

Kauzu
27-02-2011, 04:50
I don't think it is rules as intended that these abilities would work but rather an attempt at future proofing the rule. The rule states a unit cannot charge out of a building. The rules for those abilities state a unit must be able to charge. It can not charge. Not a valid target. However, if an ability comes along that forces a charge regardless of whether or not the unit can legally charge it is already clear how to handle this situation. I take the "normal rules" to be the specific set of rules impacting a unit when the ability is activated. If a unit is in a building than it follows the building rules.

*edit* It sounds as though one of the new O&G spells can force a unit to flee which might indicate that there will be newer abilities that force units out of the watch tower. Unfortunately that also probably means that the scenario wont be updated to suck less.

AMWOOD co
27-02-2011, 06:05
I think, Lord Inquisitor, that you are using faulty logic (Horror of horrors!). Allow me to follow your reasoning as I see it.

1. The Siren Song and Rune of Challenge (Song and Rune) force a unit to charge if able.
2. A unit that is compelled to charge while in a building will leave the building instead of charging.
3. The unit leaves the building because it is compelled to charge by the Song or Rune.
Problem: Since the unit is not able to make the charge, why are the Song and Rune able to work in the first place? There can be no compulsion to charge if the compulsion cannot work.

I know you've heard the arguement before (just on this thread let alone the half dozen that have discussed this before) but it really is surprising that this little bit of evidence keeps being ignored by those in favour of having it work.

An example of a compulsion that isn't frenzy which already exists (although this example can't actually be in a building) is the Scraplauncher. The rule for the rhinox having to pass a Ld test or charge is not Frenzy, but it is a compulsion should the beasty fail its Ld test.

Lord Inquisitor
27-02-2011, 20:35
I completely understand your logic and it is indeed sound, if you take a slavishly strict view of the rules. It just ends up with the conclusion that the clause "otherwise forced to charge" actually doesn't cover units that are otherwise forced to charge. My problem is that exact same logic results in Frenzy units being unable to be forced out of a building, except that the building rules actually mention Frenzy. The Frenzy stipulation with the inclusive "otherwise forced to charge" has an implicit allowance that units inside a building that are under forced-charge rules are treated as if they can make/declare a charge with 360-degree arc of sight. Otherwise Frenzy doesn't get triggered.

Let's take your Scraplauncher example. Assuming it could be in a building (a big one!), the Bad Tempered rule is as followed: "If there is an enemy model that is an eligible target for the scraplauncher to charge during the Declare Charges part of the Movement phase, it must immediately pass a Ld test or declare a charge." Since a unit in a building cannot charge, it's impossible for it to be triggered - the rule is functionally identical to Frenzy.

There isn't anything that can be triggered by the "otherwise forced to charge" because any forced-charge rule will stipulate that the unit must be able to (declare a) charge - they have to include such a clause or your scraplauncher would have to test or attempt to charge units that are on the other side of the board!

So I think the correct reading of the rule includes this implicit allowance for units otherwise forced to charge to be allowed to be forced to charge!

But that's my opinion. I'd like to see a FAQ on this.

H33D
27-02-2011, 21:08
I agree with Lord Inquisitor's post above. There are exceptions for charges being forced, but then again the rules are written poorly. I think the rune and the song should both work, as well as frenzy. It definitely needs an FAQ however.

Bodysnatcher
28-02-2011, 06:56
Should, but don't. And do you really want people bi.. uh.. complaining even more about multiple siren songs?

T10
28-02-2011, 10:43
Just a reminder, though:

The Master Rune of Challenge and the Siren Song do not force the target unit to charge but instead requires that it selects one of two options:

1. Charge
2. Flee

-T10