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View Full Version : Orcs and Gobs: Trolls worthwhile?



DraconisTheElder
26-02-2011, 14:15
Hi everyone, I am a new Orcs and Goblins player and am in the process of building my army (I have about 2k points worth of models atm but haven't played a game yet). I have been reading lots of army lists and different tactics posted by members and it seems like quite a few people use Trolls.

When I first read the Troll profile I thought that there would be no possible way I would ever take them. Could some of you explain why they are good and how (as is the case in many 2k and under point lists) having under 5 trolls can survive let alone do much damage and thats if they aren't stupid for most of the game. So far they don't seem worthwhile to me considering their point cost and monetary cost.

One other thing I was wondering is what are people's opinions on Azhag the Slauterer. Just yesterday I was thinking that he could do some pretty mean damage being both an excellent warrior and (in the new rulebook) a level 3 lore of death wizard. He has stupidity but that shouldn't be a big deal because of his high leadership and his quell animosity rules and increased range for inspiring presence (because he is on Skullmuncha) seems useful. Any thoughts?

Kauzu
26-02-2011, 14:28
Trolls benefit from regeneration, can get the ld boost from your general to try to counter stupidity a little bit, and because they are monstrous infantry lots of formations are viable as the second rank gets all of its attacks. They are pretty versatile as their normal attacks tear up soft units and you can vomit on harder units. I know someone on these boards did the mathhammer kills per turn with a blackorc horde versus a troll horde and they were pretty even.

As far as azhag goes, I think that it is very risky in an O&G army to put your general in a position where he is going to be easily shot at by everything (I have the model-it is fairly tall) and can also miscast.

brynolf
26-02-2011, 14:44
Trolls are supposed to go down in points in the new book, so they will certainly be more worthwhile.

DraconisTheElder
26-02-2011, 15:56
Ya I guess what your saying makes sense Kauzu, as long as the general is nearby I suppose that definately helps counter their stupidity. Can they reroll a failed stupidity test if the BSB is there also? In addition, in the new rulebook regular trolls are dropping to a special choice, not bad I suppose. To expand on the initial question, what do you guys think about the different types of trolls. Is it worthwhile to upgrade to a troll type or leave them as regular?

It seems to me that if you were to upgrade the stone troll would be the most viable as long as they are fighting medium strength -> squishy units. Also with the reduction in possible counter magic in the new book the magic resistance (2) could be useful aswell.

As far as Azhag is concerned I can definitely see how having an expensive general who can kill himself with a miscast could be rather detering. I was thinking he might be a tempting target for enemy archers which would give, lets say, my medium sized unit of orc bigun's with double choppas, less to worry about before they hit the enemy line and wreak havoc. Also, being a large target, he can be screened by (for example) NG's with fanatics and any melee units who want to get to him will have to deal with that first. After which he can charge because he can see over all allied units, in addition this charge could be a flank charge that would quickly end combat with a unit already engaged by a chariot or spider riders or any other fast units that have tied up the enemy.

brynolf
26-02-2011, 16:07
Actually, Magic resistance doesn't stack with Regen as far as I know, so Stone trolls should be a total, 100% and complete waste of points.

Edit: Well, except against flaming attacks of course.

Kauzu
26-02-2011, 16:16
If all you have to worry about is enemy archers you are probably pretty safe, I was thinking more about being cannon bait.

Mobility is great but you'll still want to keep him close enough to your army that you can benefit from the ld bubble.

In general I think wyverns are great, but as an army general they bring a whole slew of potential issues with inspiring presence.

ihavetoomuchminis
26-02-2011, 16:45
Trolls are great. I run a unit of 6 trolls. In every game i've played, they have performed from quite well to amazing. You need them to be close to the general. But, i'm thinking about try to put a hero in the unit (possibly a goblin warboss) mounted in a giant spider (it is a mount option in the new book) the ptolos shield and the 2+ ward save against fire amulet.

6 trolls will cost 10 points more than a giant in the new book. :rolleyes:

Shimmergloom
26-02-2011, 17:12
Be cautious about troll hordes. You are going to hear alot about using them. And it should be fine if all you play are regular pitched battles.

But if you and your friends randomly roll from the 6 scenarios each time you play, then 1/3rd of the time you could find big troubles for your troll horde.

You might have your general not set up on the board in turn 1 or you could be forced to place your trolls far from your general during set up outside of his LD range.

So be careful. In the end black orcs might be better because they have to worry less about those scenarios, then trolls do.

Trolls are more flexible in their formations though, as you don't really need to have huge units to get a lot of attacks out of them.

If only VPs weren't so terrible and poorly thought out this time around. Little units of 1 troll would be more useful.

xxRavenxx
26-02-2011, 17:22
Troll horde = epic pit of shades autofail funtime.

'Nuff said :)

brynolf
26-02-2011, 18:24
Actually, Magic resistance doesn't stack with Regen as far as I know, so Stone trolls should be a total, 100% and complete waste of points.

Edit: Well, except against flaming attacks of course.

Regarding this, has anyone read the rules for Stone trolls in the new army book? If they only have MR2 as usual, they will be next to useless and prove that GW doesn't really know what they're doing.

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2011, 19:44
If they only have MR2 as usual, they will be next to useless and prove that GW doesn't really know what they're doing.

Like that would be anything new, after all they also failed to adjust the Slann's Regeneration skill, which is now officially useless since he automatically comes with a 4+ Ward anyway.

Scalebug
26-02-2011, 20:28
The weird thing isn't that the regen skill became useless, that is just a normal case of some stuff getting made redundant in edition shifts, and then updated when they get around to get a new army book.

No, the WTF? here is "Why did they stop at essentially updating one single thing, the Steam-tank, in the FAQ's/erratas, why not take the time to do more?"

Also, what was wrong with the 6-7th ed Magic Resistance rule, one could ask...

snottlebocket
26-02-2011, 20:51
Also, what was wrong with the 6-7th ed Magic Resistance rule, one could ask...

It was a good rule in the 7th. Would have been insanely good in the 8th. The whole idea behind the magic phase in the 8th is that you'll have slightly less dispell dice than your opponent has power dice on average.

The old MR rules would effectively let you roll more dispell dice than your opponent has powerdice easily. It would make it fairly pointless to even have a magic phase.

Urgat
26-02-2011, 21:07
Sure... let's say I field stone trolls. My opponents could just throw his casters away, his magic phase would be doomed, I mean, the trolls totally prevent him from doing anything :p

Tedurur
26-02-2011, 21:10
Troll horde = epic pit of shades autofail funtime.

'Nuff said :)

Purple Sun and Pit of Shades will destroy a troll horde no doubt but the same is true for a BLOrc horde as well. All the insta gibb spells are amazingly boring and makes you wonder wtf were they smoking when they came up with those pos rules. However, most tourneys (at least around here) only makes them do 1 wound instead which in those instances makes the trolls better against those spells as well.

As for cannons vs trolls its actually pretty much a waste to fire at a troll horde since you only have a ~27.8% (55.6% for a flaming cannon ball) chance of killing a troll with a cannon ball so it will most likely just stop in the first rank.

FluidSpace
26-02-2011, 22:04
I actually like my trolls chances against things like small units of heavy cav. Your 1+ armor save means nothing when corrosive projectile vomits hits them in the face.

DraconisTheElder
26-02-2011, 23:55
Ya the comment about the vomit would also apply to killing heavily armoured heroes, think malice darkblade 1+ save... um nope.

decker_cky
27-02-2011, 01:35
Regarding this, has anyone read the rules for Stone trolls in the new army book? If they only have MR2 as usual, they will be next to useless and prove that GW doesn't really know what they're doing.

I think they have a 5+ scaly skin as well, like in the 7th edition book. That makes them even better against S3 troops and shooting than other trolls. Add in resistance to flaming magic, and they're pretty ok.

Ronin[XiC]
27-02-2011, 12:10
But they are 10 points more expensive than common trolls, that's about 15% more for just a 5+ armorsave and a protection against only very few spells? :(
Rivertrolls on the other hand are MUCH better in cc. -1 to be hit is pretty good and in my opinion worth the extra points.

stonetroll
28-02-2011, 17:23
Rivertrolls on the other hand are MUCH better in cc. -1 to be hit is pretty good and in my opinion worth the extra points.

They are worth the points probably, but the problem is that those points will eat into your allready cramped rare allowance of 25%. Therefore I think the most ubiquitous troll will be the humble "common" troll that only uses the generous Special allowance.

herohammer
28-02-2011, 17:34
I think that one will see many more river trolls after the ZOMG factor of the Arachnarock wears off. It is one of the better large monsters in the game and is probably a viable option in a variety of lists but it takes up a huge percentage of one's rare allowance.

Once there are fewer people running around with arachnarocks more people will run river trolls as none of the other rare choices costs more than 100 points and it would take a very specific army build to max out on pump wagons or artillery. I think that many people will end up dropping the spiders for 2X mangler squigs to free up more rare points for wagons, artillery, and trolls.

Slayerthane
28-02-2011, 21:33
I have often asked myself this question. The truth is, in certain circumstances they are worth it. 6 of them dish out roughly the same number of attacks as a unit of 6 squig herds, although squig herds are slightly cheaper. Regeneration essentially means they have a 4+ ward save to non-flaming attacks. The Vomit attack is great for when you are fighting a few well armored units like chaos knights. Keep them close to your BSB and you use his leadership for stupidity. Use them in combination with a unit of night goblins with nets, and that essentially increases their toughness when the nets roll 2-6. They are more survivable than squig herds, so won't give up as much CR in combat. I'd run them naked though, no upgrades. With the new monstrous infantry rules, there really isn't a reason not to run them. Just keep them close to your general and use them as a flanker for his unit.

ivrg
28-02-2011, 23:58
One problem with trolls is that they must be within the generals ld or else they will proberbly just move one D6 forwards and drool. And considering that there are also other things who need to be close to the general, i think its a problem.

Small units of 4 could work as supporters, 140 pts and 12 S5 attacks.
But i would not take more than one unit of trolls.

AMWOOD co
01-03-2011, 03:39
You could always throw a Big Boss riding a boar in the unit. In the new book that's only (checks) 71 pts with light armour and shield, 75 with the great weapon. Gives them a handy Ld8 for dealing with stupidity. Alternatively, a Black Orc Big Boss will be 108 for the 2+ save and consistant Immune to Psychology.

Tedurur
01-03-2011, 06:59
I think that one will see many more river trolls after the ZOMG factor of the Arachnarock wears off. It is one of the better large monsters in the game and is probably a viable option in a variety of lists but it takes up a huge percentage of one's rare allowance.

Once there are fewer people running around with arachnarocks more people will run river trolls as none of the other rare choices costs more than 100 points and it would take a very specific army build to max out on pump wagons or artillery. I think that many people will end up dropping the spiders for 2X mangler squigs to free up more rare points for wagons, artillery, and trolls.

I think Trolls screening the Spider could be a very viable combo, the one thing that the spider really fears are cannons and putting a unit of 4 or 6 trolls in front of the spider the first turn forces the opponent to gamble with his placement of the cannon shot instead of just making sure a bounce hits it.

AMWOOD co
01-03-2011, 16:28
I think Trolls screening the Spider could be a very viable combo, the one thing that the spider really fears are cannons and putting a unit of 4 or 6 trolls in front of the spider the first turn forces the opponent to gamble with his placement of the cannon shot instead of just making sure a bounce hits it.

I like this... this also works for wyverns (and my Chaos Dragons) on the first turn until I can get in position to charge. Excellent.

Turtleking
01-03-2011, 17:23
I think Trolls screening the Spider could be a very viable combo, the one thing that the spider really fears are cannons and putting a unit of 4 or 6 trolls in front of the spider the first turn forces the opponent to gamble with his placement of the cannon shot instead of just making sure a bounce hits it.

Love it. I always want to find more uses for my Trolls.

sssk
01-03-2011, 17:36
In answer of the original question: yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes (etc)

I've always used trolls in my gobbo army (they're the heavy hitters), and in 8th ed, the second rank getting to attack means a unit of 6 is my optimum unit size (the mythical 18 troll horde is simply too many points, too unmanouverable, and too big a risk for my liking). At present I use a unit of 6, but I believe I will start using 2 units of 6 to get the kills in. Excellent for causing wounds, killing knights, holding up heavy hitters, they're just very very good.

Obviously stupidity can be a problem, but not too much if the general and BSB are still alive (playing goblins, this isn't by any means a certainty for me), and even with stupidity, for the price you're paying they're a brilliant unit.

As for the river troll/normal troll debate, I think I need to do some more (highly scientific) tests before I reach a conclusion about it. In the back of my mind, I'm very much thinking that I'll stick with the theme of my army (cheap and cheerful) and just go with normal trolls, but at the same time, the temptation to take river trolls alongside night goblins (-1 to hit, and -1 strength from nets = very survivable unit) is quite high.

The jury is out on that one

DraconisTheElder
01-03-2011, 18:15
Well congratulations gents I am persuaded. Trolls will be included in my army! Now I just need to find some money.... I know there was a couple of quarters hanging around in my couch ... somewhere. There! only 400 more to go ...

Avian
01-03-2011, 18:44
I just bought three more of the old metal Trolls, to bump my unit up to 8. I think they're great with the new BSB rule and bonuses to monstrous infantry.

drear
01-03-2011, 19:25
they will be useful, but shouldnt be the central point of an army.
i can see them being exceptional hammer units used longside a horde or orc boyz or goblins, with stomps, and vomit, they should do alot of damage.

their only let down is their leadership, but it can be helped alot by a very cheap character on a mount just being deployed with them. goblin on a wolf, thats around 70 points for ld 7-8 , and some extra combat help.

however unit size is going to be the real issue with them. like ogre kingdoms they need to be feilded in units of 6 + as msu or solo trolls wont really do much damage.

ihavetoomuchminis
01-03-2011, 20:14
You could always throw a Big Boss riding a boar in the unit. In the new book that's only (checks) 71 pts with light armour and shield, 75 with the great weapon. Gives them a handy Ld8 for dealing with stupidity. Alternatively, a Black Orc Big Boss will be 108 for the 2+ save and consistant Immune to Psychology.


as i said in another thread, i think the best hero one can add to a troll unit is a warboss (common goblin) or an orc big boss, mounted in a spider or boar, with the ptoloss shield and the 2+ ward save against fire. I prefer the orc one, but in a goblin theme army, the goblin fits better. :) and the spider has forest strider.

what do you think? it's vulnerable to cannons and other multiwound non save templates, but it boosts the unit quite well.

AMWOOD co
01-03-2011, 21:11
If you go the goblin route, you could always stick him on a Gigantic Spider for the extra fighting power and the advantage of being the same base size. My buddy's got the old Gigantic Spider model and it is on a 40 mm base I believe.

Kauzu
02-03-2011, 00:52
I'm pretty sure the one still for sale is a 50mm square but mine is packed so I cant check.

ihavetoomuchminis
02-03-2011, 09:09
it's 50 mm base. This way it fits in a spider unit.

AMWOOD co
03-03-2011, 05:50
Sorry. My buddy has the old 4th edition model, it was on a 40 mm.

Urgat
03-03-2011, 06:01
How did he manage to have it fit on a 40mm base? I can hardly get mine to fit on a charriot base...

Avian
03-03-2011, 09:23
I think there were several different Spider models.

Thénon
03-03-2011, 11:24
quick rules querry since i don`t have the book at hand.

cannonballs don`t ignore regen?
so cannonball could be stopped by trolls? as it stops it bound if it dosn`t kill a model.?

sssk
03-03-2011, 11:32
I'm pretty sure a troll would stop a cannon ball even if it failed it's regen but only sufferes 1 or 2 wounds....wouldn't it?

regen has nothing to do with it.

Thénon
03-03-2011, 11:49
i know it would stop the ball if ur oponent was unlucky in rolling a 1 or 2 but can`t remeber if u get regen against it.

sssk
03-03-2011, 11:58
oh, well unless it's one of those dastardly dwarf burning cannon balls (rune of burning), yes, you'd get regen against it

Crube
03-03-2011, 12:36
I have just deleted a number of posts that break the forum rules. Please keep the discussion on topic, and remember posting points values is against the rules.


Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

Spiney Norman
03-03-2011, 12:46
Actually, Magic resistance doesn't stack with Regen as far as I know, so Stone trolls should be a total, 100% and complete waste of points.

Edit: Well, except against flaming attacks of course.

True, but stone trolls were never a particularly good choice ruleswise, their armour save is too low to have much of an impact and MR is now virtually superfluous as it doesn't work against the spells you really need it for. Fortunately its the stone trolls that have terrible models, so no reason to use them.


They are worth the points probably, but the problem is that those points will eat into your allready cramped rare allowance of 25%. Therefore I think the most ubiquitous troll will be the humble "common" troll that only uses the generous Special allowance.

Yes, common trolls are great, cheap and special choices, and I'm finding my special section has far more space in than my rare section this edition. I like my river trolls for theme reasons (and because the models are not only awesome, but cheaper than the commons or rivers), but it does mean my rare section is usually pushing its upper limit.

Dead Man Walking
03-03-2011, 13:45
You won't think that magic resist is useless if you get hit by a flaming spell.

Avian
03-03-2011, 16:49
You won't think that magic resist is useless if you get hit by a flaming spell.
But you will think so whenever you are hit by something else, which is 99% of the time. ;)

Turtleking
04-03-2011, 11:18
I don't think magic res is useless. But I don't think it's worth taking stone trolls over river. But that's just me :)

Andy p
04-03-2011, 18:03
I already have 6 river trolls, used as normal trolls in my list, they are excellent for their value now.

ihavetoomuchminis
04-03-2011, 19:42
Until GW doesn't errate the "instakill" spells, MR is useless. It's useful against only 20 of the 56 spells in the BRB, and the vast majority of those spells belong to the less used lores. It's useless against the important spells.

Gork or Possibly Mork
04-03-2011, 19:56
Until GW doesn't errate the "instakill" spells, MR is useless. It's useful against only 20 of the 56 spells in the BRB, and the vast majority of those spells belong to the less used lores. It's useless against the important spells.

Some of the those nasty spells are designed to keep deathstars in check somewhat. If MR worked on everything it would kind of defeat the purpose.

Avian
04-03-2011, 20:26
Some of the those nasty spells are designed to keep deathstars in check somewhat.
But that plan didn't work anyway.

Gork or Possibly Mork
05-03-2011, 06:45
But that plan didn't work anyway.

It's definitely a deterrent. If MR was business as usual same as 7th it would make magic alot weaker and encourage deathstars alot more.

Glabro
06-03-2011, 09:32
True, 6 trolls are a good way to pack a punch in a relatively small frontage, but still one shouldn't discount the option of taking trolls 4 wide - the added stomp will help, and 8 will always get to attack.

Squigkikka
06-03-2011, 11:28
There are better ways to deal with Deathstars. The new OnG magic vortex only does 1 wound with no armor saves, and that' based on a random test.

I have no idea what they were thinking when they made it so that the entire model, no matter the size, instadies. Oh hoi, there goes my trolls and my arachnarok spider and all that other junk in one, power scrolled phase! Gosh!

theunwantedbeing
06-03-2011, 11:37
35pts for a basic troll.
How is that not absurdly good value?

ihavetoomuchminis
06-03-2011, 12:14
it's one of the best options in the book. I'm thinking about fielding two units of 8 trolls.

Squigkikka
06-03-2011, 12:51
That'd be brutal to deal with! Only thing keeping me back from it is the price for the units and the fact that I've got so much other stuff I want to fit in :P

Turtleking
07-03-2011, 03:42
Far more then just worthwhile. Better then black orcs? Hm....

ihavetoomuchminis
07-03-2011, 10:18
no, no better. BO are worse. Yes....1 troll, 3 black orcs, wich can punch 6 S5 attacks, but only the first rank, and don't have regen. TO me, black orcs are good in units of 10-12 models, in two ranks. Reliable hitty support units :P

orkmiester
07-03-2011, 11:17
i'll be using a unit of three river trolls, ok not very big- but i have seen what three trolls can do and they have caused more than a 'few' problems... (they are a better choice, my giant is now redundant as him being on his own= dead)

and don't knock black orcs either :evilgrin:, for some reason people go crazy when they see a unit (ahem a unit of 30 with grimgor...). it all comes down to player taste really...

Wade Wilson
07-03-2011, 11:54
Have to say, im brand new to O&G myself but the idea of taking 6 trolls along with a mounted character (i like the idea of a gobbo boss on a gigantic spider) appeals to me. I dont wana break forum rules on exact points costs (sorry mods if i mess this up)but a unit of 6 with a spider mounted gobbo is cheaper than a unit of 25 black orcs (with added command, shields n bits n bobs). Seems like an excellent hammer unit to go near the BSB. Im tempted to try 4 trolls with a mounted gobbo to see how that goes in my new army.

Turtleking
07-03-2011, 14:19
Yeah. More and more of us are looking at Trolls as a real hammer unit. I think they will see some play soon.

Turtleking
07-03-2011, 14:21
Black orcs can still be a great unit, but more multi purpose then before. Kinda a horde killer swiss army knife. Pure whup though seems like it goes to Trolls.

Wade Wilson
07-03-2011, 14:27
Black orcs for hoards and high toughness units with trolls as heavy cavalry/high armour save killers perhaps? urgh, as a noob to O&G i feel spoilt for choice.

russellmoo
07-03-2011, 17:39
The real thing that is going to hold people back from running a troll horde is the actual financial cost- assuming you pay full retail

i.e. horde of blorcs= $132
horde of trolls= $267 and that's using river troll models- if you go with the actual troll models the cost is way more-

This means that a lot of players will most likely, slowly build up to troll hordes over time- so expect to see more and more troll hordes about 6 months from now- as players go from a unit of 6 to 2 units then to a horde of 18-

RainSong
10-03-2011, 14:48
Would your opponent think you're a bit cheesy if you used a horde of 18 trolls in a 2k game??

Also...

Would a horde of 18 be more effective than 3 blocks of 6?

or compared to just a block of 8 trolls for example... is it worth the 350 extra points?


Guess you have the benefit of being able to steamroll over enemy units... but there's also the risk of getting destroyed by an uber-spell. ..

snottlebocket
10-03-2011, 15:35
Would your opponent think you're a bit cheesy if you used a horde of 18 trolls in a 2k game??

Also...

Would a horde of 18 be more effective than 3 blocks of 6?

or compared to just a block of 8 trolls for example... is it worth the 350 extra points?


Guess you have the benefit of being able to steamroll over enemy units... but there's also the risk of getting destroyed by an uber-spell. ..

Three times six is certainly more flexible. And depending on your opponent's magical and fire related options he might actually thank you for your giant pointssink / target.

Dutch_Digger
10-03-2011, 22:31
3 units would also all have to be near the bsb, which is easier for one larger unit.

but 18 trolls isn't that overkill?

snottlebocket
11-03-2011, 05:27
3 units would also all have to be near the bsb, which is easier for one larger unit.

but 18 trolls isn't that overkill?

18 is the magic number because it's a full horde. For every troll that manages to get in base contact during combat you get a stomp and 9 attacks.

Less than 18 and you don't need a third rank and might as well go with units of 6 or 8.

RainSong
11-03-2011, 11:03
An 18 troll horde would be a true 'deathstar'; not because it's full of characters/items that make it invincible, but because it's a massive entity with the power to destroy planets, unless your enemies pop a spell into its exhaust port and cause it to implode spectacularly...

Two units of 8 trolls + 1 mangler squig also sounds very tasty for the same point cost...

Turtleking
12-03-2011, 15:25
Would your opponent think you're a bit cheesy if you used a horde of 18 trolls in a 2k game??

Also...

Would a horde of 18 be more effective than 3 blocks of 6?

or compared to just a block of 8 trolls for example... is it worth the 350 extra points?


Guess you have the benefit of being able to steamroll over enemy units... but there's also the risk of getting destroyed by an uber-spell. ..

Yeah, I might. If you see someone with a horde of Trolls then some people may feel its a little cheesy. I myself run a Horde of Squig herders and hope my opponents don't look at me crossed eyed. A horde of Trolls sure would.

snottlebocket
12-03-2011, 15:31
Heh, I just realized how easy it would be to shield a cheap general and battlestandard unit behind the trolls. People are unlikely to break through the trolls or be able to draw line of sight to the unit beyond it considering the troll's height and width.