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View Full Version : So, what ended up being "the whole new direction" with the O&G book?



Smacksaw5000
27-02-2011, 15:44
I beleive it was Harry who mentioned early on that the O&G Army Book would reveal a 'whole new direction' army boooks would be taking in 8E.

Other than the hard cover, has there turrned out to be anything else new and exciting?

Thanks,

Snake1311
27-02-2011, 15:52
Well, the item list is restricted to only the most army-specific and characterful items. I know people are raging, but I quite like that tbh. Otherwise during my brief period of looking over it I woudn't say I saw anything revolutionary.

Crube
27-02-2011, 15:55
I think it's mainly the format of the book tbh...

Ultimate Life Form
27-02-2011, 15:57
It referred basically to the layout and such, as far as I remember. So, though I did not yet have a chance to flip through it, yes, indeed the hardcover that you drowned in a subordinate clause is the new direction.

GodlessM
27-02-2011, 16:11
I beleive it was Harry who mentioned early on that the O&G Army Book would reveal a 'whole new direction' army boooks would be taking in 8E.

Other than the hard cover, has there turrned out to be anything else new and exciting?

Thanks,

Hard cover, full colour books are a whole new direction even in themselves; it's people's own faults if they over analyse everything Harry says and get 'drastically new direction with loads of changes' from 'new direction'. But of course there is also the static cost of command groups, smaller amount of magic items, and of course magic lores being streamlined into the same format as the RBRB lores (albeit this was to be expected).

Confessor_Atol
27-02-2011, 17:02
I would be really suprised if they keep the low, low number of magic items for other books. It makes sense that Orks aren't great at making or keeping a vast array of magic treasure.

Pigboyneo
27-02-2011, 17:13
I would be really suprised if they keep the low, low number of magic items for other books. It makes sense that Orks aren't great at making or keeping a vast array of magic treasure.

That makes no sense, OnG get magic items from some of the sillyist ways, the Kicken Boots for example are only "magic" because the previous owner of them got blown up by a cannon and only the boot survived.

And the fact OnG are looters :shifty:

snottlebocket
27-02-2011, 17:18
I beleive it was Harry who mentioned early on that the O&G Army Book would reveal a 'whole new direction' army boooks would be taking in 8E.

Other than the hard cover, has there turrned out to be anything else new and exciting?

Thanks,

You expected the army itself to take a whole new direction? Orcs & Goblins, fighting evil with the power of science!

Ultimate Life Form
27-02-2011, 17:19
Yes, but they're not very good at maintenance, and even the sturdiest Magic Item doesn't tolerate years of constant abuse.

Confessor_Atol
27-02-2011, 18:14
That's what I'm saying. Orks have never been a magic item based army, unlike dwarfs or high elves.

xxRavenxx
27-02-2011, 18:16
Yes, but they're not very good at maintenance, and even the sturdiest Magic Item doesn't tolerate years of constant abuse.

Even a magical shield of +1 abuse tolerance?...

Shimmergloom
27-02-2011, 18:20
Well luckily those beastmen are master craftsmen. And ogres spend all their time practicing their magical techniques.

And vampires take out so much time from their busy schedules of looking in the mirror to make a constant supply of new items.

And it's always a good idea for a highly flammable mummy to go into the forge to make a new sword or talisman.

UberBeast
27-02-2011, 18:32
The "Whole new direction" doesn't really seem to be worth the hype. I doubt it would have been worth keeping the secret of just more color photos and a thicker cover.

Even the decline in magic items doesn't scream "whole new direction" to me.

ihavetoomuchminis
27-02-2011, 18:49
+1 to that. As i said before in other thread, the new O&G book is just a bunch of tweaking in points and rules, a hard cover, less magic items, and that's it.

BlackPawl
27-02-2011, 19:32
Isn't it also that there are many more Special Characters in the new book?
And the new Spider Monster (go bigger, stronger, faster ...)

Ultimate Life Form
27-02-2011, 19:32
Well, but that's hardly anything new. :rolleyes:

neXus6
27-02-2011, 19:36
The "many more special characters" seem to just be the inclusion of old ones which were given the boot for no reason.

Whurzag in particular was always a far far more interesting character than Grimgor and yet they chose Grimgor for the previous book and "important" role in the Storm of Chaos nonsense.

As for the big spider it is hardly new that every new army book released has to come with access to a new big monster.

Artinam
27-02-2011, 19:40
I'm actually very happy that they simply tweaked the army instead of completely remaking it. Its all it needed a simple tweak. The whole new direction probably refers to the lack of magic items, some new units and the hardcover book.

Tokamak
27-02-2011, 19:42
I wish every army would get the treatment Orcs gott.

But hey, all armies are balanced, some are just more balanced than others...

AMWOOD co
27-02-2011, 20:01
The thing with the magic items is that it's not even new. Digging through my 5th edition Warhammer Magic book, I found that Greenskins only had 10 items specific to them.

Item name (who could have it in 5th, differences for now)

Weapons:

Morgor the Mangler (Orcs only, Gorbad Ironclaw's weapon)
Elf Biter, the Axe of Grom (any, guess where it is now?)
Axe of Bork (Orc only, it's gone)

Banners:

Bad Moon Banner (Night Goblins only, still around but changed)
Spider Banner (Forest Goblins only, around in name only)
Morks War Banner (any, sort of still around)
Gork's War Banner (any, I think it's gone)

Enchanted Items

Collar of Zorga (any, it's gone now)
Mad Cap Mushrooms (Night Goblins, also gone)

Bound Item
Skarsnik's Prodder (Night Goblins, back to its owner)

No unique Magic Armour, Wards, or Arcane Items

This was with a list of about 200 items or more that anyone could use. Compared to now, we've got a higher ratio than back when I started. Also, there were 2 weapons that only Greenskins could NOT use: The Blessed Sword and Gromril Blade.

ihavetoomuchminis
27-02-2011, 20:11
I wish every army would get the treatment Orcs gott.

But hey, all armies are balanced, some are just more balanced than others...


do i detect some kind of sarcasm or irony? :p

GodlessM
27-02-2011, 20:15
Well luckily those beastmen are master craftsmen. And ogres spend all their time practicing their magical techniques.

And vampires take out so much time from their busy schedules of looking in the mirror to make a constant supply of new items.

And it's always a good idea for a highly flammable mummy to go into the forge to make a new sword or talisman.

Not to mention that all of these books came out after 8th edition just like Orcs and Goblins...oh wait... :shifty:

Cragum
28-02-2011, 08:58
I would probably say that it is mainly aimed at how the book is set out. I mean we are now like the the main rulebook going into a warhammer world that utilises decent printing processes.

Its price is insane for what your buying as i buy books for my graphic design and illustration with much higher page counts than the O&G book but the fact they have done it hardback and fullcolour is something that GW are risking with. True prices have increased for an army book but at same time its a book that lasts. {hopefully...}

Avian
28-02-2011, 09:04
The thing with the magic items is that it's not even new. Digging through my 5th edition Warhammer Magic book, I found that Greenskins only had 10 items specific to them.
Back in 5th, my Orc Warboss, my buddy's Skaven Warlord and my other buddy's Dark Elf Lord all ran pretty much the exact same combo of items (+2 S sword, 1+ armour, 2+ Ward against first wound). Disregarding everything else, that was a bit dull.

FatCat
28-02-2011, 12:30
Yeah but at least most of those 5th ed. book items were good. Axe of Grom made it on every warboss of mine. The new list has the nice savage orc ward save buff and that's about it. It's not such a big deal with the common items but I don't understand what GOOD reason there is for such a small list. I'm guessing later books won't get this treatment. I hate always being the first book of an edition where they try some semi-crippling change ONLY for the O&G book. OK I'm probably jumping the gun here;) Shame is aside from the silly short list of magic items it's an outstanding book.

ihavetoomuchminis
28-02-2011, 12:59
Yeah but at least most of those 5th ed. book items were good. Axe of Grom made it on every warboss of mine. The new list has the nice savage orc ward save buff and that's about it. It's not such a big deal with the common items but I don't understand what GOOD reason there is for such a small list. I'm guessing later books won't get this treatment. I hate always being the first book of an edition where they try some semi-crippling change ONLY for the O&G book. OK I'm probably jumping the gun here;) Shame is aside from the silly short list of magic items it's an outstanding book.

we should wait for the next book, in 3 months, to know if our fears are founded, or not.

Shimmergloom
28-02-2011, 17:15
3 months may not tell you much.

Empire in 7th was not overpowering. Although it came out with knights the same price as before and not raised in price which was an early warning that the greenskin book was a mess of lies, we didn't know how bad it would be till months later when we saw the HE army rumors.

xxRavenxx
28-02-2011, 17:36
Re: Magic items.

Of the huge list of magic items available in the WoC book. How many are used? I bet the number is about 4...

I agree that maybe a *couple* more items would be nice, but with the basic book streamlining things a little, its not so bad.

Shimmergloom
28-02-2011, 17:42
That line of reasoning falls apart, because when looking at the 8 magic items given to greenskins, 6 are useless, 1 is situational to taking savage orcs and a savage shaman and the other may or may not be good to take.

So even with 8 items, greenskins still only have 2 worth taking.

If they had come out with say 15 items and 10 were really good. Then there would be less to complain about.

Avian
28-02-2011, 17:46
Re: Magic items.

Of the huge list of magic items available in the WoC book. How many are used? I bet the number is about 4...
About 12. And then you can add in a few chaos gifts. So about twice as many items as the greenies have in total.

UberBeast
28-02-2011, 19:00
Let's not get carried away with how many items are supposedly used in 7th edition books. In friendly games I see people take all sorts of items that aren't considered competitively sound. We can't even say that people were only taking two or three, especially when a typical 2k point army in 7th and 8th edition still reguarly makes room for magic items on nearly all of its characters.

Azazyll
28-02-2011, 20:44
The fact that it costs more? At least being hardback gives them a reason to jack up the price. I can't believe the base cost for the old softcovers has gone up to $29. I would really like to buy every army book, but I'm not going to at that price. Would that they could be purchased through Amazon.

Captainbastard
28-02-2011, 20:55
Its not actually a bad deal for a hardback book. Hardback books in full colour are mega pricey. You could say its one of the few things GW do that is similar to the price in the open market.

However, my gripe with modern army books is that they tend to be full of filler and advertisements. The original orcs and goblin book was much bigger, and had a full battle report and tons of background material. Also, considering that some army books only have a shelf life of 4-5 years, they could have kept it in paperback.

Leogun_91
01-03-2011, 07:01
However, my gripe with modern army books is that they tend to be full of filler and advertisements. The original orcs and goblin book was much bigger, and had a full battle report and tons of background material. Also, considering that some army books only have a shelf life of 4-5 years, they could have kept it in paperback.What you consider advertisement might not be the same as others, currently a book has these sections (for this estimate I have looked at 4 7th edition armybooks, HE, Empire, VC and WoC, the sections may differ in order somewhat):
List of Contents (the books tend to be easy to navigate without it but it serves a purpose)
Introduction (one page for completely new guys, nothing special and defenitively needed)
Fluff about the army (30 or more pages about the army, I like it)
Units (Fluff and special rules for each unit, needed)
Collecting an X army (painted minatures, examples of painted minatures, used by many for inspiration)
Army list (no Surprise)
Magic Items (More rules)
Reference (Rules reference page)

I find all those sections needed and wouldn't cut out any. I don't enjoy battle reports too much so I'm glad they cut that out, what you see as advertisement is probably something someone else enjoys to have in the book.

dominic_star
01-03-2011, 07:29
Colour and a stiffer material aren't a new direction. It's an inconsequential aesthetic change.

AlexHolker
01-03-2011, 07:51
Its not actually a bad deal for a hardback book. Hardback books in full colour are mega pricey. You could say its one of the few things GW do that is similar to the price in the open market.
No, it's not. A similarly priced full colour, hard cover D&D book is 250-300 pages, not 112.

xxRavenxx
01-03-2011, 07:53
I just re-read a few posts I'd glossed over earlier, and since I'm doing very little in the next hour, felt compelled to comment on peoples aversion to cost.

The price of a warhammer book is not *cheap*, but by no means is it expencive.

Jeremy Clarkson's last book was on sale when I bought it a month or so back, 50% off... 12.50.

So thats... 25 new.

I was shocked to realise the cost (cunning waterstones hadn't marked it clearly), but forked out as its not *too* bad. This led me to look round at all the celebrity books they had on sale (autobiographys, which clearly were not written by the fatuous bints who claim to have composed them, as they contained grammar.) and lo' and behold. They were all 20+

This led to me thinking about some of my university text books, gathering dust in the back of a cupboard.

112 page book. In black and white, softcover - 28. The price of learning? I suppose... ([edit]: Is 112 pages a standard thing because of binding? I just realised that the number comes up a lot, and I've never really considered it before.)


So yeah, specialist book, full colour hardcover. The price is appropriate.


Then again, I don't blink at the cost of figures either. A new unit is less than a computer-game... :\

bazragh elfburna
01-03-2011, 08:20
What annoys me the most about the new book is the fact that they took all the good toys and trinkets away, and put some highly situational and overpriced stuff instead.

+1 a +1 s AP sword for 50 pts is a good item but a bit overpriced, Shagas was waaaay better for 50 pts.

Also removing effigy of mork for magical defence was a huge nerf, and completly unnecessary.
Ok so removing the sneaky stealing staff I dont have a problem with as it got exchanged for a bit more offensive abbility with little waaagh, but removing the banner of butchery and effigy is really stupid, those 2 items were good.

Also they removed all our offensive enchanted items (no more killing blow for orcs, no additional attack in enchanted items, no more D6 S6 hits when killed, no more removing ward saves), really stupid and pointless to nerf our allready limited magical item selection, when I see skaven with all their war gear and all their magical items I wanna yell WAAAGGHH and bash GWs head in.

Other than the magical item stupidity it seems like a good book:D

Ultimate Life Form
01-03-2011, 08:29
Even if they hadn't been removed there is no guarantee they'd be the same items you know. It is not uncommon for magic items to magically change properties between editions (obviously the powers of chaos at work again).

Basically the name is just an empty label waiting to be filled with meaning. That is one of my main gripes with Warhammer; Items (and special characters) just being randomly generated every time anew. There is not 'the' legendary Spirit Totem, only a random item that is coincidentally named that, basically eradicating all traces of epicness. Talk about boring.

Memnos
01-03-2011, 08:50
The Orc and Goblin book is genius and the magic items limitation is wonderful.

I predict that doom will come in the form of a bearded short man who 'Simply must' keep the Runic Items ability. This, of course, will be followed by Chaos who 'Are well known for their magical artifacts'. Then, the Lizardmen, High Elves and such will come on touting how they are the ones with powerful artifacts and access to lots of magic items.

Razhem
01-03-2011, 10:18
The Orc and Goblin book is genius and the magic items limitation is wonderful.

I predict that doom will come in the form of a bearded short man who 'Simply must' keep the Runic Items ability. This, of course, will be followed by Chaos who 'Are well known for their magical artifacts'. Then, the Lizardmen, High Elves and such will come on touting how they are the ones with powerful artifacts and access to lots of magic items.

Or, more probably, orcs will be the bitches again and will keep a crap selection of items along with probably tomb kings. If beasts and Skaven got as many items as they got with "8th edition" in mind, I'd dare say the orc reduction was a whim and chances are that whim will be rectified after the whine.

HidaYaginaka
01-03-2011, 10:55
Greetings.

I've been following all the discussions that interest me in the WS for a long time now but, as you can see, I generally don't post. But I want to point out something.

The bearder short man you mention who will spell doom upon the game because he will be allowed to keep his Runic magic items, had access to them for as long as I can remember WFB. They have been an integral part of the particular army almost forever. Why? Because Dwarfs don't have mages, monsters, chariots, cavalry, don't have access to common magical items, don't have much else to be exact. Would you deprive them of that flavorful ability because of fear of what might happen?

I'm quite sure that if the Dwarfs lose their runes some people will rejoice. They are rather excellent. I wonder what their reaction will be if Dwarfs get access to common magic items instead, including the wizarding hat. Or should we also keep them away from common magic items also?

The past few weeks I'm seeing an escalating discussion started with the upcoming O&G armybook. Not all the criticism is unjustified, but in most cases it is taken to the extremes. One has to keep in mind that WFB, although suited for tournament play too, is not just that. Having armies with variety and character is the greatest plus of this game (because we all know that there are indeed both rules and balance issues), but taking away Dwarf runes or Orc animosity won't make the game better. It will only make it more dull.

Although one chooses his army on coolness and taste criteria too, one also chooses his army on a gameplay preferance basis also, so if one has problems with the unpredictability of the O&G, or the slowness or restricted type selection of Dwarfs one only needs choose a different army. I love the Wood Elves models, but if I want a horde-style army then more probably than not they are not the right choice for me.

Before all the uproar that this is going to cause, let me elaborate that I play BOTH Dwarfs and O&G. This is not a biased opinion. I'd just hate to see armies that are downright flat and similar. (But I'm all for the balance, although not high in hopes...)

Dead Man Walking
01-03-2011, 12:30
The reason the O&G book has so few magic items is because the WFB rulebook has so many common magic items. You have a crudton of magic items already and if they released a O&G book with a crudton of magic items there would be needed crudtons of rule erratta's for interactions between magic items of both books and the more options you have for variety the higher the chance someone's going to figure out a way to abuse the system by creating an unstoppable combo (I'm looking at you Demons of Chaos and Skaven.) We all know they don't play test enough to give infinite options.

I'll take less options for the semblance of balanced gameplay.

BramGaunt
01-03-2011, 12:31
I would be really suprised if they keep the low, low number of magic items for other books. It makes sense that Orks aren't great at making or keeping a vast array of magic treasure.

You're up for a big surprise then.

Chaos and Evil
01-03-2011, 12:41
What's new?
Hard-backed cover.
All colour pages.
Higher price tag.

Nothing much changed with the content, though.

Memnos
01-03-2011, 14:41
You're up for a big surprise then.

I have no doubt that Orcs, Tomb Kings and the army after that has few magic items.

I also have no doubt that every army after that will have escalating magical item power. Chaos, Lizardmen, High Elves and Dwarves(Dwarfs?) all have arguments that they should be the exception. Once exceptions start being made, they will be made for all armies. It will start with one of those armies. My prediction, since it is oldest, will be Dwarves(Dwarfs?).

Spiney Norman
01-03-2011, 15:22
Its not actually a bad deal for a hardback book. Hardback books in full colour are mega pricey. You could say its one of the few things GW do that is similar to the price in the open market.

However, my gripe with modern army books is that they tend to be full of filler and advertisements. The original orcs and goblin book was much bigger, and had a full battle report and tons of background material. Also, considering that some army books only have a shelf life of 4-5 years, they could have kept it in paperback.

This is the clincher for me, I don't need an army book that will last 20 years, because it'll be superceded in 5 yrs or so, the reality is that paper back books last as long as they need to. My 7th Ed paperback O&G book doesn't show any signs of falling apart, the same with my 6E Tomb King book which is nearly 8 years old now, heck even my 5th Ed Lizardmen book is in pretty good nick, and its been updated twice since I bought it.

Look at it this way, most of the gainsayers for the hardback books base their objection on the current price of paperback books vs the new cost of a hardback book, the reality is they were most likely going to raise the price of books anyway, at least this way we get something out of it and they can't get away with increasing the price of all the other books because they're not hardback yet.

H33D
01-03-2011, 17:26
Things that are different at least for the Greenskins if not also in comparison to all of the other army books (and thus a new direction):

-Hardback
-Full Color
-More Special Characters Maybe this is due to the fact that all greenskins are 'special' :P
-Less Magic Items I foresee all armies having less of their own unique magic items, Dwarves will probably have less runes than currently but still enough for a few useful combos.
-Magic Lore specific to 8th Of course this would happen.
-Larger Monsters Let's face it, this includes models outside of the new O&G Book such as the Plague Furnace and Azhag on his Wyvern (He is the one on the Wyvern, right?). BUT the new spider monster has the biggest base of any single model yet.
-An Obvious Intent for Players to take more Special Characters Not only are there many Special Characters in the new O&G book, as well as less magic items, but there are also special characters that fulfill different roles, like the goblin one that makes wolf riders awesome. This isn't exactly a new trend but with all things considered its not hard to see that they are trying to make it so players stop banning Special Characters.

At least thats what I think of it. These things are all bigger, better, or different than before so if they said future army books are going in a new direction they could have been talking about any one or all of these things.

Jack Spratt
01-03-2011, 17:57
8 magic items are a big turnoff no matter what. I like a lot of stuff about 8th but this blows. It just blows. That, at least, is one new direction I do NOT like.

bazragh elfburna
01-03-2011, 18:40
Im hoping for a PDF or a general WHFB magical supplement for more magical items cause this really blows, not only are ther very few magical items, most of them are completly useless and horribly overpriced, we can only hope that if the new O&G is gonna setup a new trend that they may actually listen to their player base and perhaps remedy this mistake before the book comes out or just put on the website a PDF with some more usable items from the old edition of the book (kinda like some pansy elves got a long time ago, but ye we are orcs we supposed to be funny and easy to beat, gotta love that attitude, makes me wanna sell my greenskins whom I been collecting since 5th edition) and also make some minor price changes to the existing magical items in the book since allmost all of them are totaly overpriced for what they do.
100 pts for heawy armor with d3 toughness and impact hits, waaaaay too much imho, 100 pts for +d6 attacks and d6 strenght also overpriced since that way your lord doesnt have any protection what so ever.
50 pts for +1at +1str ap (that optional bit for double bonus against dwarves is utterly useless agains other armies that are more dangereous to my char with that weapon), screw that gimme back my shagas screaming sword!!!

Also on another note, I really expected more bonuses for black orcs, sure they guard mages better now since they are ITP, but hell more offensive bonuses like +1 attack to get them in line with other elite infantry would have been better, magical item allowance for black orc champs, and a magical banner allowance for at least a single goblin or night goblin unit, those kinds of things is what some of us hoped for.

I wont even get started about magical banners cause that section really pisses me off.

Pigboyneo
01-03-2011, 19:39
The biggest problem I have with the new magic items OnG get is not that we get less, but most of them will not "add" anything to units apart from the model that weilds it itself.

For example the new item that savage orc shaman can take is cool, because it gives the shaman a better ward save, but also gives the unit he is with a better ward save. The magic banner are like this, but really only work with a BSB, and not many peeps put a BSB in goblin units (unless youre takin a goblin only army) so you will be using 1 or 2 at the most, and a Warbanner is just way more better.

Now look at the "new" 8th ed Grimgor he does get two less attacks, but is now str 8 first turn of combat and has 5 attacks, WS 8, 1+ armour save and 5+ ward, ASF and has hatred against every one. He not only a "monster" in CC but he also makes a Black Orc unit go from so-so in to "monsters" because he increase's their WS to 5 and gives them hatred. Or if you take Gorbad he is the only Lord choice that OnG can get who is LD 10, has a command range of 18" and works like a BSB, is pretty lethal in CC himself, but best of all allows for a entire army of Big 'Uns!

This IMO is what "army" magic items should do, is "add" to the army/units not to the actual model itself, that what common magic items should do.

But it looks like once again GW missed the mark, and "if" (i really doubt/hope they don't) start adding more and more magic items to new 8th ed army books, then I will want (but never will get) a errata for OnG so we have just as much magic items, but more than likely if they do give more magic items to other armies down the line then OnG players will have a gimped magic item list till 9th ed :mad:

AlexHolker
01-03-2011, 19:42
8 magic items are a big turnoff no matter what. I like a lot of stuff about 8th but this blows. It just blows. That, at least, is one new direction I do NOT like.
I agree with that. IMO, stripping the armoury to the bone is the worst thing they ever did to 40k, and now they're doing the same to WHFB.

Francis
03-03-2011, 20:13
I for one am horrified by the lack of magic items in the new O&G list. One of the things I really enjoy with warhammer is trying to make interesting characters, and the only way to do this in game is to give them magic items that reflect the background you would like for them to have.

My HE prince for example is an old Swordmaster so White Sword is a must, likewise my Archmage is sort of a magic hungry pyromaniac, so there you go Jewel of the Dusk and Ring of Fury (uses lore of fire). My heroes are even more eccentric with one of my builds being a Noble with 2HWs, Temakador's Gauntlets, and The Amulet of Light (to make his swords magic). Another is a Noble with a GW and the Radiant Gem of Hoeth to make wahammer's answer to the Sword Mage.

All these options will probably go if they reduce the amount of magic items and that will steal a bit of the joy from character creations from me. I am willing to go so far as to keep the unkillable Dread Lord combo in the game (and I hate that combo with a fury) if only I am allowed to keep my eccentric colourful character builds.

hashrat
03-03-2011, 21:53
This is the clincher for me, I don't need an army book that will last 20 years, because it'll be superceded in 5 yrs or so, the reality is that paper back books last as long as they need to. My 7th Ed paperback O&G book doesn't show any signs of falling apart, the same with my 6E Tomb King book which is nearly 8 years old now, heck even my 5th Ed Lizardmen book is in pretty good nick, and its been updated twice since I bought it.

My 5th ed books fine too, as are my 3rd and 4th, the pages fell out of my DE and IOB books within 2 weeks, it is quite situational.


they can't get away with increasing the price of all the other books because they're not hardback yet.

How much do Orcs cost these days? I seem to recall a sudden 100% price rise of late.
Same ancient plastic Orcs. :p

I should add that I thought 40K went to the dogs with 3rd doing away with an entire phase and mountains of equipment, I am not excited by the thought of WFB going the same way.
I enjoy picking through the lists looking for fun items and combos, it is part of the hobby that appeals to me.
Now if someone dislikes hunting through a 100 items they can ignore it, if someone likes it but there are only ten items their going to be bored.

Captainbastard
03-03-2011, 22:03
A lot of players have already thrown their book down the toilet - thats what the new direction was.

Malorian
03-03-2011, 22:07
If beasts and Skaven got as many items as they got with "8th edition" in mind, I'd dare say the orc reduction was a whim and chances are that whim will be rectified after the whine.

If GW had reduced the beast and skaven items before all the 8th ed items came out people out have cried bloody murder.

I support GW in this as long as the other books follow the same path.

The only way around this being books that don't have access to the 8th ed ones.

Makaber
03-03-2011, 23:30
I, for one, don't mind the reduction in magic items as long as they're all genuinly good. In fact, I wouldn't mind the army spesific items being a bit better/cheaper than the one in the BRB, as long as they reflect the army. And really, how many "Ignores Armour Saves - 50 pts." weapons do we need? And it's pretty established that a 5+ Ward is 30 points and about 80% of all armies have access to one, so why print that in every single army book?

And I see Beastmen getting mentioned a lot, as an example of a book with tons of magic items, written with 8th edition in mind. Well, let me tell you, the vast majority of those items are utter ****. There are about 10 genuinly good items in there, and most of those are fairly situational, and in many cases overshadowed by better deals found in the BRB.

I for one, wouldn't mind for a second if they replaced the Primeval Club or the Banner of Outrage with a reprint of the Thomas Wanderer poem. :p

UberBeast
04-03-2011, 01:01
I'm worried about the 8 magic item trend, but from another perspective. What about armies that had other cool things that took up their magic point allowance like chaos gifts, or Bretonnian virtues? And how would they go about limiting dwarf magic items where you basically build what you want? I don't see how they can keep a fair standard of less is more without unfairly gutting some of the more characterful books out there.

Malorian
04-03-2011, 01:09
I don't see how they can keep a fair standard of less is more without unfairly gutting some of the more characterful books out there.

See is how you are looking at it wrong.

It's not that less is more, it's just that the common list grew bigger while the race specific grew smaller.

Overall orcs and goblins have more options than they did pre-8th.


No need to change dwarfs at all.

No need to play with powers, gifts, big names, or vampire powers. Those are seperate.

UberBeast
04-03-2011, 02:25
See is how you are looking at it wrong.

It's not that less is more, it's just that the common list grew bigger while the race specific grew smaller.

Overall orcs and goblins have more options than they did pre-8th.


No need to change dwarfs at all.

No need to play with powers, gifts, big names, or vampire powers. Those are seperate.


I think you're missing my point. I'm wondering that if they continue to drop the number of available items, will they also cut back on virtues, vampire powers, or dwarf runes. I also agree there isn't a need, but then nobody was claiming there was a need to reduce the orcs to 8 items either.

Not only do I not want to see this trend continue against special options, but I'd also think it unfair if orcs get 8 race specific options and then following army books end up having significantly more.

AMWOOD co
04-03-2011, 02:56
I don't see the magic item thing as a big deal, especially once you look at 5th edition.

In 5th, there were somewhere around 200 common magic items. For greenskins, there were 10 more. Of these, I typically used... 3: The Mad Cap Mushrooms, the Sword of Bork and the Bad Moon Banner.

Now, we have 80 Common Items and 8 Greenskin items. Not too different.

UberBeast
04-03-2011, 03:00
Yeah, that was 5th edition... there was also a common magic item sword that gave you strength 10...

I'd say that 6th edition with lots of specialized items was a big improvement.

Freman Bloodglaive
04-03-2011, 05:19
I started assembling my army in 5th edition (Warhammer Fantasy Dogs of War) and I loved the massed magic items found in the box. Then in sixth we had access to only the common magic items with their +1 strength, +1 save and 6+ ward. That sucked.

Now in 8th there is at least a decent set of items available in the rule book to draw on. Give your Warboss heavy armour with a 4+ ward, and a sword which gives him +2 attacks and that's a shed load of strength 6 attacks in the first round, and still a bunch of strength 5 in the second. What's more he's hard to kill. (I regard strength 5 as the minimum that should be possessed by a character before enhancing his attacks). Sure they're not "specialist" Orc items (except the choppa rule) but they do the job anyway. You want to compromise on protection, take a Savage Orc Warboss, give him the Sword of Bloodshed and the Potion of Speed (you even have enough points left over for the armour of fortune). 8 attacks at strength 6 and initiative 8 (when you use your potion)? That's pretty evil.

Sure, the downside is a lot of people will use the same equipment (my mercenary general has the armour of destiny and the ogre blade). At least that makes it "fair".

Shagga's sword was pretty similar to the sword of anti-heroes, and to be honest I think an Orc would be ideal for carrying that, if only because he's rather vicious even without it. Characters who start with strength 4 aren't that good with it.

Neffertech
04-03-2011, 19:48
Snotlings moved to special. Though...who really cares:D

Captainbastard
04-03-2011, 21:35
This is the clincher for me, I don't need an army book that will last 20 years, because it'll be superceded in 5 yrs or so, the reality is that paper back books last as long as they need to. My 7th Ed paperback O&G book doesn't show any signs of falling apart, the same with my 6E Tomb King book which is nearly 8 years old now, heck even my 5th Ed Lizardmen book is in pretty good nick, and its been updated twice since I bought it.

Look at it this way, most of the gainsayers for the hardback books base their objection on the current price of paperback books vs the new cost of a hardback book, the reality is they were most likely going to raise the price of books anyway, at least this way we get something out of it and they can't get away with increasing the price of all the other books because they're not hardback yet.

Yeah and its not like the books are even as good as they were in 4th or 5th edition. Notice how they are releasing separate books which have army colour schemes in them (ftw). In the modern army books the centre pages are basically advertisements for GW figures. In the old 4th and 5th edition books it would have been a battle report and about 4 pages of army tactics and a lot of stories in the front.

hashrat
05-03-2011, 00:59
I guess we should be grateful we weren't given the full 40K treatment, drop good books like Angels of Death, replace with pamphlets at twice the price! PROFIT.

But did they profit? I am sure I am not alone in once having bought books merely for the fluff etc, now I give pause to buying books for armies I actually collect.
I bought more than 1 army due to enjoying an army book just to read (Bretonnians, Dark Elves, Orcs and Goblins) Not something that will ever happen again, quite the reverse, I cancelled Chaos/Cult of Slaanesh because they split the force, I cut my O&G wishlist from 150-200 to 60 solely due to their box set nonsense.

I miss really looking forward to Army books and WD. (Yeah, going back a ways for WD lol) Fact remains good books tempt people into spending, poor overpriced books do not. I might pick up a 12 book to read the lore and end up with a new army, I ain't touching 22.50 books for anything beyond the 6 I have.

I am a fan of the new O&G book, but I feel it lacks a certain something, honest passion perhaps?

Captainbastard
05-03-2011, 01:46
With orcs ang goblins it always feels like they redo the same book over and over again, without adding much new to the "feel" of the army, or adding any new background.

Compare the army books for orcs and goblins with the army books for vampires or skaven. I'm not talking about rules, just the background stuff.

It feels like orcs and goblins become more and more like a kind of cliche, based purely around a few characters.

AMWOOD co
05-03-2011, 07:43
The Greenskins are one of only 4 races that may not record their history, the others being Daemons, Beastmen, and Ogres (maybe). The Greenskins have been around for a while, though. It would be nice, I think, to see the Warlords of the current day being put back in the spot light. Bring back characters for Morglum Necksnapper and Gorfang Rotgut. Rotgut had some real class to him paralleled only by Grom and Skarsnik. A devious Orc is a pleasant twist.

ihavetoomuchminis
05-03-2011, 12:02
With orcs ang goblins it always feels like they redo the same book over and over again, without adding much new to the "feel" of the army, or adding any new background.

Compare the army books for orcs and goblins with the army books for vampires or skaven. I'm not talking about rules, just the background stuff.

It feels like orcs and goblins become more and more like a kind of cliche, based purely around a few characters.


and the same is applied to the rules. It's always the same.

Captainbastard
05-03-2011, 12:54
and the same is applied to the rules. It's always the same.

I don't mind the rules being always the same. They usually change a few of the rules in each edition. But they have never given them the dark elf treatment (when there is a problem, throw as many special rules at them as possible).

I'd like to see more stories about orcs raiding and pillaging local villages. The whole background seems to be based around a few special characters.

astornfleshlay
05-03-2011, 13:14
I actually REALLLLY like the new OnG book.

What I enjoy most about it:
1. I love how special characters can add bonuses to current units, making them perform potentially better on the field
2. I really like the new magic spells, especially ones where you can augment your own units
3. I'm one of the few who really enjoys the 8 magic items. So many people on here say they're worthless, but I think they all have their value, and some of their rules are very "Orcy"
4. Some of the points reductions fit right into the units I currently use, making my current army cheaper and allow me to field more "fun" units/warmachines/etc.

If anything, this book has got me excited for greenskins again...it's all I could've really asked for

ihavetoomuchminis
05-03-2011, 14:20
I don't like the banners. Too much expensive, and require a BSB. BSB's without equipment are very weak. And the last waagh's axe is.....i'm not sure. It'll be worth if it was only +1d6 attacks and +1d6 Strenght...but the -1d3 WS.....not worth 100 points, taking in account that you can roll a 1 or 2....the blood sword is much better, and cheaper. The kaloth's staff would be worth if you could curse a model in base to base with the unit, not only the model, otherwise....if the designed model passes his test, probably the shaman will get killed (taking in account that it won't have any save at all).

it leaves me with only 3 items out of 8.

Harry
05-03-2011, 14:26
I don't remember ever saying anything about "a whole new direction"

I said ... 'expect something a bit different'.
I was at pains to say I was not talking about the contents but the presentation.

BorderKing
05-03-2011, 14:44
Why don't they just FAQ the magic items, to make them better, as having 8 good magic items is better then having 20+ fairly mundane ones? I think with a good FAQ it would stop alot of people whinning as there are alot of good things with the new O&G book.

Shimmergloom
05-03-2011, 20:01
Why don't they just FAQ the magic items, to make them better, as having 8 good magic items is better then having 20+ fairly mundane ones? I think with a good FAQ it would stop alot of people whinning as there are alot of good things with the new O&G book.

It was a solid hit instead of a home run. More magic items and taking out the quell animosity where you kill your own guys would at least make it a solid double or triple.

The 7th editon book was a strikeout on 3 pitches, a hit batsmen and a bunt that didn't clear the plate all put together.

ihavetoomuchminis
05-03-2011, 20:28
It was a solid hit instead of a home run. More magic items and taking out the quell animosity where you kill your own guys would at least make it a solid double or triple.

The 7th editon book was a strikeout on 3 pitches, a hit batsmen and a bunt that didn't clear the plate all put together.


whaaaaat????