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Dwarf Longbeard
28-02-2011, 03:22
Hi all, first off I'll apolagize if this turns into a bit of a rant

After listening to a friend gonig on about how great and unkillable his Deathwing terminators are now the storm shield got a 3+ save since the errata came out; I asked him what was wrong with them having the original 4+ save; he simply answered "their space marines and deserve the best"
After listening to him go on for a little while longer about how he can't wait for the new codex Dark Angels because if it's done like the Blood Angel and Space Wolf ones were the new army would be absolutly devastating with the Deathwing and Ravenwing being a lot better for a start.

This attitude got me thinking isn't it about time GW really took a step back from all the favouritism towards space marines.
I'm still pretty new to this edition of the game and building up an eldar force and have had some very good games against other armies (Imperial Guard - Tyranids - Necrons and Orks) I've found that playing against space marines is really boring as whilst pretty much every other army has some kind of drawback space marines don't really have any and they have a counter (or something better) for anything you can throw at them. (though my friend did thing it was unfair and cheesy that I was able to wipe out a full tactical squad in 1 turn of shooting from my dark reapers)

As I mention would it be such a bad thing if GW toned down the power level on marine armies for a change as the current trend seems to be getting to the point that soon they'll have a special rule that the best result you're allowed to get against marines is a draw :(

Basically I'm wondering what other peoples opinions are on this?

Col. Tartleton
28-02-2011, 03:28
Tone them all down except the Dark Angels...

Even the stoic Ultramarines wish they had the InGlorious Legacy of the Emperor's Angels of Death! It is said that Supreme Grandmaster Azrael is the reason Supreme Grandmaster Draigo is stuck in the Warp. This Galaxy is only big enough for one ominous Supreme Grandmaster, and his name ain't Draigo!

Mannimarco
28-02-2011, 03:32
And thats why Draigo flees back into the warp (some say he is sucked back in but we all know the truth) because he knows that if he leaves the warp Azrael will fly the rock over there and slap him around!

big squig
28-02-2011, 03:44
It's only going to get worse with grey knights.

Pigboyneo
28-02-2011, 03:45
What do marines need toning down?

They are by no means the best shooting armies or best CC armies.

They do have the best armour saves through out their army but they still die to lasguns pretty easily. And there are more than enough power weps/fist, AP 3/ below weps and etc.

They can have lots of Transport, but a Rhino is not the hardest thing to crack open in 40k.

And it not like marines are the cheapest either.

So what in you're op do they "need" toning down?

Bergen Beerbelly
28-02-2011, 04:06
their story line :D

Dwarf Longbeard
28-02-2011, 04:51
They are by no means the best shooting armies or best CC armies.
True but they have a very good WS and BS which makes all the difference any unit in the army has the potential to beat anything thrown against it either through shooting or close combat

They do have the best armour saves through out their army but they still die to lasguns pretty easily. And there are more than enough power weps/fist, AP 3/ below weps and etc.
Not always about the power weapons; an Imperial Guard army can try to overwhelm them in close combat but having such a good saving throw means they can weather an assault quite well
Don't get me started on assault terminators with storm shields lol

They can have lots of Transport, but a Rhino is not the hardest thing to crack open in 40k.
It is the only tank to have it's own self-repair function though, on a lucky day it can be very difficult to stop a Rhino rush

And it not like marines are the cheapest either.
But they never seem to be totally outnumbered either, unless its Orks or Imperial Guard they seem to be more or less equal numbers against most other armies


All in all I don't know what needs toning down maybe it's just bad experiences against a power gamer (he does a Deathwing army and Thousand Sons chaos army) but taking on the armies feels more like a chore than a game

I think the biggest problem just now is how GW have made the chapter specific codexes so powerful especially with the Blood Angels and as big squig mentioned it's only going to get worse with the grey knights

Darnok
28-02-2011, 04:54
To me it sounds more like your friend needs toning down, not Space Marines. ;)

Dwarf Longbeard
28-02-2011, 05:26
After having another look through his army lists I'm thinking that your right on that point

Firmlog
28-02-2011, 06:16
Rules are Roo-EHLS. Do Space Marines need toning down? Yes and no. Yes, they need toning down in both the fluff and in game so all the armies are fighting with the same rules, and its simply dice and fire/assault control to win. No, they are interesting with lots of tactical flexibility and interesting abilities that make them cool and fun.

What really needs to be said is other armies need "buffed" to exhibit similar but different types of interesting combat tactics. No, not really, actually many armies "certain" units need adjusted/buffed to increase use and flexibility to bring them on par with marine units/abilities. I think that is a better way to describe it.

Also, while some/you may like xenos or non-marine armies because they are interesting or divergent, marines are cool. Sci-fi gaming is generally about power armor, cool, powerful, power armor. Space Marines didn't become the most sold race because they have the coolest new rules, SM have dominated the game since 2nd ed. While it may seem its the rules people get marines for, its the models and fluff that pull people to them. GW is simply marketing their game towards what people want.

Orks, Dark Eldar, and especially Guard are all really powerful armies completely able to compete with any marine army. Eldar and Nids may seem a bit lacking, but its the units I would say, not the army that is bad. Necrons are just out dated (but can still be played competitive, just not an auto-win) and in need of severe overhaul to bring them in line with newer armies.

Dvora
28-02-2011, 07:53
Orks, Dark Eldar, and especially Guard are all really powerful armies completely able to compete with any marine army. Eldar and Nids may seem a bit lacking, but its the units I would say, not the army that is bad. Necrons are just out dated (but can still be played competitive, just not an auto-win) and in need of severe overhaul to bring them in line with newer armies.

I agree completely with this, however the only thing I feel space marines need are less codices. I suppose I should say that I have a feeling it's going to be Grey knights, Necrons , Dark Angels, Eldar, Black templars, Tau, And chaos somewhere in here for the next codex releases.

Israfael
28-02-2011, 08:02
I agree completely with this, however the only thing I feel space marines need are less codices. I suppose I should say that I have a feeling it's going to be Grey knights, Necrons , Dark Angels, Eldar, Black templars, Tau, And chaos somewhere in here for the next codex releases.

I highly doubt it. The recently released FAQ makes me feel it will be sooome time before my Legion is redone; possibly not until the next edition. In which case we'll be the "testing ground" for C:SM again..

Dvora
28-02-2011, 08:03
Not that particular order Israfael, but just that it'll be, xeno release, then space marine release. And when I finally think I'll get my Witch Hunters codex, BOOSH! 6th ed C:SM.

Stealin' Genes
28-02-2011, 12:15
To me it sounds more like your friend needs toning down, not Space Marines.


This. Some people like to talk up their army, brag on about unit X or rule Y will be your impending doom. It's just trash talk, if there's a point to it, it is to psyche you out and make you hesitant or think defensively. Don't let it get to you.

IcedCrow
28-02-2011, 12:36
I don't think marines need toning down. In fact, I'd say that my real issue with marines is:

1) not all chapters are equal. Which is why you hardly ever see Ultramarines or Dark Angels among other things. It's been like this since the before time in the long ago. When armies like Blood Angels and Space Wolves just have so much awesome packed into them and the other chapters are kind of bleh, don't be surprised when everything on the table is red or grey.

Give these chapters some love too. Ultramarines are supposed to be tactical masters. Give them something to represent that!

Anyway... that comes down to the next bit... marines don't need toned down, the other armies need brought UP.

There is a lot of love for specific marine chapters because... THEY SELL so well. You can't change that. It was decreed by the high profits (notice the catch on spelling) of the long long ago that this would be so and it is =) But the designers need to boost up the other armies a bit too.

Just my opinion. I did have a marine player tell me how much he thought my thousand sons were cheesy. ;)

I will say that if someone was going on about his unit of doom, nothing says love more than when you take his unit of doom and then make it your bitch. The look on their face is priceless =) Pretty much every unit in this game can be countered. With marines, especially assault types... that counter typically comes in the form of stay away from it and shoot at it a lot, especially with AP3 and AP2 weaponry.

Raibaru
28-02-2011, 13:12
The variety needs toning down.
The total number of codex need toning down.
The blatant creep needs toning down.
The special rules to invalidate other special rules need toning down.

Overall Space Marines are fine when you look at their codex. The problem comes with GW's desire/need to give each Marine codex some new whacked out thing that had no right even being dreamed up. Key examples being Thunderwolf Cavalry, Spirit Wolf, Mephiston, Dreadknights, Force staffs. There's bound to be one or two things in the BT and DA codex whenever they come out too.

And then the fact that we have something like 6 marine codex is also obscene when we can tell with each new revision GW tries harder and harder to justify their existance. Take Space Wolves for example. Why did they need a new codex if not for thunderwolf cavalry and their background aside from the simple fact that they had one before?

Why couldn't Space Wolves have 5 pages of fluff and 2 special characters to give some rules variety to the army? Perhaps one to beef up scouts into grey knights and another to make devastators shoot 2 targets (I'd bet money devestators will change to do this baseline anyway next SM codex).

Why couldn't Blood Angels have 5 pages of fluff and 2 special characters to make assault marines troops and give FnP to a unit the other joins.

Why couldn't DA get 5 pages of fluff and 2 special characters to make terminators troops and give tacticals a second heavy weapons choice for 10 models.

Why couldn't BT get 5 pages of fluff and 2 special characters with one being the champion and the other to allow your marine squads to be joined by 10 scouts.

When all is said and done the only real answer to these questions is that they've each already had their codex.

The idea that they do it because Marines sell so well is backwards logic getting the better of GW. Why didn't Dark Eldar sell well? Because the army had enough white dwarf articles and rules updates that could be counted on 1 hand over the course of 12 years and their models sucked hardcore. Why do SM sell so well? Because every white dwarf mentions them in detail, they have 6 codex, and get 5 new models a year.

Other armies would be just as popular and succesful as Marines if GW would spend 1/10th the effort on them as they did on Marines.

homunkulus
28-02-2011, 13:56
The idea that they do it because Marines sell so well is backwards logic getting the better of GW. Why didn't Dark Eldar sell well? Because the army had enough white dwarf articles and rules updates that could be counted on 1 hand over the course of 12 years and their models sucked hardcore. Why do SM sell so well? Because every white dwarf mentions them in detail, they have 6 codex, and get 5 new models a year.

Other armies would be just as popular and succesful as Marines if GW would spend 1/10th the effort on them as they did on Marines. Even though they're not a particularly endearing company, I doubt they arbitrarily picked the Marines as the army they'd support just in the hope of sales. Aside from being nonsensical, it wouldn't explain the degree to which they dominate sales.

Warmachine is better
28-02-2011, 14:01
Hi all, first off I'll apolagize if this turns into a bit of a rant

After listening to a friend gonig on about how great and unkillable his Deathwing terminators are now the storm shield got a 3+ save since the errata came out;[quote]

Dark Angels are one of the weakest books in the game. I would say THE weakest.

[quote] I asked him what was wrong with them having the original 4+ save; he simply answered "their space marines and deserve the best"[quote]

With the 4+ save in combat, assault terminators were never used. With the new 3+ vs everything they are now merely a average unit. And still need a land raider bought for them to be useful. Which everyone meta's against.
[quote]After listening to him go on for a little while longer about how he can't wait for the new codex Dark Angels because if it's done like the Blood Angel and Space Wolf ones were the new army would be absolutly devastating with the Deathwing and Ravenwing being a lot better for a start.

Yep. Dark Angels need to be made better.


This attitude got me thinking isn't it about time GW really took a step back from all the favouritism towards space marines.

They are the most popular. Of course there will be more books about them. As for game balance those books are no better than books such as orks, eldar, dark eldar, guard.

I'm still pretty new to this edition of the game and building up an eldar force and have had some very good games against other armies (Imperial Guard - Tyranids - Necrons and Orks) I've found that playing against space marines is really boring as whilst pretty much every other army has some kind of drawback space marines don't really have any and they have a counter (or something better) for anything you can throw at them.[quote]
You/your friends are most likely simply not using good lists. Start going to a national tournament before you make sweeping statements about the game.
[quote](though my friend did thing it was unfair and cheesy that I was able to wipe out a full tactical squad in 1 turn of shooting from my dark reapers)

How did he let this happen. It is almost impossible to not get a cover save in 40k now. Also dark reapers are a trash unit. Its statements like this that show how you and your group of friends are beginners compared to people like me. As I said, get to the top of your game before making statements about the game.


As I mention would it be such a bad thing if GW toned down the power level on marine armies for a change as the current trend seems to be getting to the point that soon they'll have a special rule that the best result you're allowed to get against marines is a draw :(

No. As they would then be weaker than the rest. Again. Go to a national tournament.


Basically I'm wondering what other peoples opinions are on this?

Ive said mine. The reason the game is a mess is that GW listens o people who have little to no experience of the game and then nerfs/boosts units because of what they say.

Poseidal
28-02-2011, 14:03
Does anyone have any details on the Dark Eldar sales (for the recent release?)

All I've found is someone's (probably) anecdotal that the Dark Eldar release sold twice as much as the Blood Angel and Space Wolf release combined.

Bonzai
28-02-2011, 14:07
I think C:SM minus Vulkan is fairly balanced. Vulkan is a little too good, as he acts as a force multiplier. Otherwise I think the codex is in a very good place.

C:DA? I think with the update they are also in a nice spot. Deathwing is about the only thing that you can't do in C:SM, and while strong it does have some drawbacks (Small number of units, foot slogging terminators are slow and easily out manuevered, etc..).

C:BA? I think there are some minor tweeks that need to be adjusted, but over all they are in a decent place. I'll admit when they first came out, I was very concerned. Yes, they are very strong. However they pay for that strength, and for the most part they did a good job of pricing. However I do think that Mephiston is 100 points too cheap, and Baal predators having a scout move scares the crap out of my Necrons.

C:SW? Ok, here there are some problems, as there is no balance between them and vanilla Space marines. Where as Blood Angels pay extra for their perks, Space Wolves get theirs, with a price reduction on top of it. Sure, I realize that devestators were a little over priced in C:SM's, and that isn't so much my complaint. JWW is far too strong a power, but that has been covered to death. I also think Thunderwolf Calvary are a tad too strong. Making them 4(5) I think would fix them I think. There is a very good reason why Space Wolves are cleaning up at tournaments, and it is because it is poorly balanced in comparison to the other Marine codexes.

C: GK? I am not up on all the rumors on them, so we'll wait and see what their codex brings.

C: BT? Have yet to meet anyone who plays them and still uses their old codex. Not even sure how much the update even helped them. Can certainly use some love.

How do I think they compare to the 5th edition codexes?

IG: IG are about as strong as you can get without becoming over the top. I think it's a great codex. Strong, flexible, but not unbeatable. It gets better the more points it can bring to the table. I think Space wolves is slightly more powerful, but IG can hold thier own against them, and are one of the few codex'es that can from a power standpoint.

Tyranids: I think that on a pure power perspective, they are roughly balanced with C:SM minus Vulkan. Normally this wouldn't be a bad place to be, except that the codex is rife with it's own internal balance issues, and SW's, IG, and BA's are over the power curve at the moment.

Dark Eldar: Still early. From what I see though, they are strong, but faily balanced. Some where between BA's and C:SM's.

Everything else is a 4th edition dex, and really not a fair comparison.

Dwarf Longbeard
28-02-2011, 20:34
Dark Angels are one of the weakest books in the game. I would say THE weakest.

Have you played against Necrons?

Yep. Dark Angels need to be made better.

Care to explain why, one Dark Angel player at my local GW has a good win/loss record with his, they always seem to perform well
Yes they need to be brought upto date with the current C.SM but don't really need much more

[quote] How did he let this happen. It is almost impossible to not get a cover save in 40k now. Also dark reapers are a trash unit. Its statements like this that show how you and your group of friends are beginners compared to people like me. As I said, get to the top of your game before making statements about the game.[quote]

Granted Dark Reapers are expensive for a small unit but for a unit which can shoot twice hit and wounds on 3's and has an AP of 3 there quite capable of cutting down heavy armoured units and thats before the exarch fires - powerful but with obvious weaknesses yes but a trash unit seems a bit over the top

Just because cover saves are available dosen't mean units always get them; as for how it happened the unit's Rhino had been immobilised and the squad was moving to the objective, yes there was some lucky rolls included

As for being beginners - to this edition I am but I've been playing GW games for over 18 years now and seen and played pretty much every edition of every game; my last game of 40k was when 3rd edition was out so I've missed out on a bit of experience in the game but still a capable player

Nurgling Chieftain
28-02-2011, 20:51
I find it hard to talk meaningfully about something so generic as "Space Marines". Sanguinary Priests need to be toned down (affect the unit they join rather than everything within 6"). Long Fangs need to be toned down (or rather made more expensive). No sort of overall fix is going to address the internal imbalance of those two models versus the rest of the army they are in.

TrooperTino
28-02-2011, 20:52
You have to admit that spacemarines are the iconic army of 40k. SMs were the army that got me into 40k. Still Eldar, Nids, Guard(that I now play) and orks are interesting and deserve proper updates of course, but Marines are the "heros". I even think they are to weak.

Sometimes we play with the moviemarines-rules (with a few changes-they are pure fungames with friends) and only there I have the feeling to fight the marines I know from BL-books and fluff... that said I nearly allways loose such games and the battlefield is full with the broken tanks and bodies of my beloved IG as they die in their hundreds so hopefully GW will never take it so far in official codexes.

Dwarf Longbeard
28-02-2011, 21:02
You have to admit that spacemarines are the iconic army of 40k. SMs were the army that got me into 40k. Still Eldar, Nids, Guard(that I now play) and orks are interesting and deserve proper updates of course, but Marines are the "heros". I even think they are to weak.

You make a good point there about them being the iconic army - first 40k game I played was epic space marine, some very good memories there :)
They do have very good imiagary and some of the models are outstanding, but as you say it would be nice to see some of the effort put into them being put into the other armies as well

Vaktathi
28-02-2011, 21:14
I think something that should be pondered is the increasing frequency and profile of the discussions regarding various Space Marine armies, from whether or not there are too many SM books, various power level discussions, the innumerable "counts as" discussions, increasing ability for marine armies to do stuff that were previously hallmarks of other armies, etc.

There are currently 4 topics on the first page of general discussion alone about these sort of things.

I believe that in and of itself is a powerful statement.

Murdoch
28-02-2011, 21:16
Hey DL, don't get sucked in by the privateer press fanboy. We have had a week of trolling and he has yet to really scare the goats... :D

Marines don't really need a tone down, you pay the points for them and they get (by and large) appropriate equipment. Couple of bits get left behind in play test or overlooked as being fluffy. It would be nice however if the use of a theme in an army wasn't stretched as far as it has been for SW, BA and, by repute, GK but the powers that be in head office are aiming at a teenage market (because they are the next wave of people that will be gaming for 18 years) and they have deemed that your average 12-14 year old will be bought in buy thematics...

Not sure there is a codex creep but more "shiny new model must sell" tendency in the design process... :angel:

I must say of the "relatively" new books though DA and CSM both got rather stiffed

hellspawn1
28-02-2011, 23:44
God yes! But then they wouldn't sell as much, and push GW's products. So they will probably stay blatantly cheesy and favoured ad infinitum.

Skyros
28-02-2011, 23:48
Not until Imperial Guard is toned down.

Raibaru
28-02-2011, 23:49
At this rate they may as well make a horus heresy sub game and call it a day.

Or center the 6th edition around another great betrayal because this game is 75% marine players. 10% IG players. And the remaining probably split between the rest.

*percent value chosen for dramatic effect.

Col. Tartleton
01-03-2011, 00:03
Not until Imperial Guard is toned down.

Just because they can spam chimera vets and skimmers and tactical nukes doesn't mean they're OP. It just means I'm planning to Count as Marines as Guard.... In a classy way.

:p

Obrimos
01-03-2011, 01:11
Toning down? Maybe some, but let's face it.
The profile of Space Marines is going nowhere.

Now, I don't mind the profile, which is perfectly adequate but I think they are too cheap at the moment. I'd like to see a tactical marine at 17 or 18 pts per model. Blood Angels and Space Wolves should cost the same as regular marines and should balance out special rules with flaws or variations in the profile but the overall power level should be the same as with vanilla marines, just different to play.

Now, there are some units, equipment and characters that are just stupid or clearly OTT. They need to go again or be toned down dramatically. It happened to the Leman Russ battle tank for Space Wolves or to the true grip special rule. It can happen again to thunderwolf cavalry and sanguinary priests.

The general movement back to superpowerful heroes in 40k bothers me a lot. I don't want to play warhammer fantasy in space or a pseudo RPG. I want my characters to be believable heroes and inspirational leaders and tacticians, not something that could outshine Arthas the Lichking or best a greater Demon in hand-to-hand combat.
The biggest benefit of 3rd was the decrease of IC power level, most dramatically psykers. It made the troops more important and the game more tactical. That positive move is now mostly undone. And SM are the spearhead of this movement.

Also toning down attention for the marines is absolutely necessary. GW should really put some effort into the other fractions, articlewise, updatewise, modelwise, fluffwise.
I'd love to see four Chaos codices, for example.
Lost and Damned
Renegade Marines (Huron &co)
Legions of Chaos Undivided
Cult Legions
They are Marines too and get no love at all, even though fully fledged army lists would open so many opportunities for different playstyles and new awesome models to sell.

Thus I conclude:
"Put up worthy enemies for mankinds best and love them equally!"

GrogDaTyrant
01-03-2011, 01:12
At this rate they may as well make a horus heresy sub game and call it a day.


That means they'd have to do a codex to represent the Chaos Legions, period. Since we all know the current Chaos dex just handles the 'Renegade Chapters'. :rolleyes:

Even so, it'd still end up Codex: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar (for some reason...:eyebrows:), Dark Angels, etc. And opposing them would be Codex: Chaos.