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View Full Version : Separation of Space Marine and Xenos



Vedar
28-02-2011, 18:56
Something is starting to bug me more and more with these 5th ed Codex.

Were once we had some things that were special to each codex and more and more they are getting lumped into all of them.

I started playing Eldar way back because they were fast and had fleet. Now everyone can run, just about every codex has some kind of fleet and just about everyone has fast vehicles.

I started playing Chaos Marines as wanted a Daemon Prince to use as wrecking ball MC. Now space marines have MC/units that eat DP for lunch. 3++ terminators, Space Wolf HQ, Blood Angel HQ, now Dreadknights and GK HQ.

I started playing Daemons to try something different, but evey new codex that comes out seems to make playing Daemons that much harder. I'm not sure if GK will be an auto-win on Daemons yet, but it does not look good.

I'll never do it but there is a small part of me that wants to buy a Space Marine Army and paint them Red, Gray and Blue so I can proxy them as the latest and greatest Space Marine swiss army knife army.

Kaltenberg
28-02-2011, 19:19
I think i recognize that story.. ohh yes, from my own experince!
Having played eldar CSM og Chaos deamons myself, this seems quite close to my own perception of the new codex's

shin'keiro
28-02-2011, 20:13
Its called codex creep.. the next codex has to be better or people wont buy it... its just business

boogaloo
28-02-2011, 20:13
lol Kor'Sarro, AKA the Great Harlequin

Shamana
28-02-2011, 20:37
Unless it's Tyrannids ;) .

chromedog
28-02-2011, 20:54
If you just want to play your sm as the latest and greatest swiss army knife - just don't paint them. That's what the kids at my local store do. Made me happy that they couldn't just proxy their SM as DE when that new shiny came out (so they ALL bought DE, realised they suck at playing them, and now there's a glut of 2nd hand DE on the market).

I still play my eldar and even win a few games v sm.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-02-2011, 21:02
I was pretty annoyed when Space Marines gained deep-strike-into-HtH while Daemons lost it... :mad:

Mr Zoat
28-02-2011, 21:30
You could just play as Grey Knights.

New Cult King
28-02-2011, 22:08
It's because the players of one army moan that they can't do something that another army can. GW is trying to be all things to all people.

dancingcricket
01-03-2011, 01:07
It's because the players of one army moan that they can't do something that another army can. GW is trying to be all things to all people.

Here, let me fix that.

It's because the players of Space Marine armies moan that they can't do something that another army can.

Seriously, how long after a xenos race gets something interesting or unique before it shows up in a Marine army in some form or manner. And if not, then guaranteed you'll see a specific counter.

Israfael
01-03-2011, 02:22
Here, let me fix that.

It's because the players of Space Marine armies moan that they can't do something that another army can.

Seriously, how long after a xenos race gets something interesting or unique before it shows up in a Marine army in some form or manner. And if not, then guaranteed you'll see a specific counter.

Because other factions haven't been getting them as well? It's not just Marines, everyone is getting everything, derp.

I'd also love to see links to the posts where Marine players are "constantly moaning" about wanting what other armies have. The most moaning I see on average is Eldar wanting vehicles they can assault from. :shifty:

Hellebore
01-03-2011, 02:34
Because other factions haven't been getting them as well? It's not just Marines, everyone is getting everything, derp.

I'd also love to see links to the posts where Marine players are "constantly moaning" about wanting what other armies have. The most moaning I see on average is Eldar wanting vehicles they can assault from. :shifty:

Strange that the army that relies most on speed (sacrificing armour in the process) would want the ability to use that speed, whilst armies full of tougher better armoured models get it as well as their other bonuses.

But can you point to a xenos army that has received something that marines have unqiuely possessed? I can't think of anything. Orks didn't get anything marines have, nids didn't, dark eldar didn't. DE didn't get ork units, nids didn't get DE units.

The guard received the Valkyrie, a better falcon. ogryns got better than tyranid warriors. The stormraven is a better falcon. It's definitely not a whole army thing, but if you can get a marine army that does fast assault better than those alien armies then that's one less reason to play non marine armies.

EDIT: some people choose their army based on play style. If GW can ensure the most playstyles available to space marines, then they ensure they sell more space marines. Which is their main line. So why not?

hellebore

riotknight
01-03-2011, 02:40
I doubt it'll happen, but I hope with 6th edition comes out, the FAQs change all the slightly different USRs (So they aren't USRs) in every codex to a new USR, and I hope the USR sucks balls.

More on topic though, I am a little annoyed at it, but as a gamer who plays both BA (OOO NEW SHINY!....Angels of Death was still my favorite BA codex)and Dark Eldar/Eldar/Tau, I have a unique perspective, all the cool factor from the Eldar was offered to me in Blood Angels, But I get the amazing toughness! All the Fire Power of Tau...well okay. if I still played guard, I'd have more effective shooting than an army whose mandate is effective shooting.

There are a lot of problems, but short of a major shift in the edition (3rd edition included All the then-current armies in its core book), we'll keep seeing the same band-aid situation....which i may go into more in a separate thread.

night2501
01-03-2011, 02:48
you did not get the memo?
the game name is changing to Space Marines 40K ...

Necromion
01-03-2011, 03:00
But can you point to a xenos army that has received something that marines have unqiuely possessed?

I do believe that Necrons at the moment that are the only army with a unique rule set in the form of gauss and WWB, I cant say that confidently because I dont know the other codices confidently, so I could be wrong.

Kresterz
01-03-2011, 03:08
Sigh, Just make it fluffy and separate rules into less obvious parts and then split certain things and try less overlap (not saying its bad but its codex creep that killed my eldar... AND KICK MATT WARD OFF. I dunno about Deus Ex Machina Kelly/Cruddace?...

They need new writers for sure...

TheMav80
01-03-2011, 03:12
Did someone seriously just claim that Ogryn are better than Warriors? Really?

Israfael
01-03-2011, 03:24
Strange that the army that relies most on speed (sacrificing armour in the process) would want the ability to use that speed, whilst armies full of tougher better armoured models get it as well as their other bonuses.

Clearly the designers disagree with you on what Eldar "need". It's easy to compare C:E and C:SM and complain about differences, when you ignore internal balance though, I guess.


But can you point to a xenos army that has received something that marines have unqiuely possessed? I can't think of anything. Orks didn't get anything marines have, nids didn't, dark eldar didn't. DE didn't get ork units, nids didn't get DE units.

Everyone can run now, and almost every codex now has something that has fleet - which was his original point. The blending of the armies is happening across all codices; it's not just Marines stealing your precious toys. People are being given more ways to field their armies than before.


The guard received the Valkyrie, a better falcon. ogryns got better than tyranid warriors. The stormraven is a better falcon. It's definitely not a whole army thing, but if you can get a marine army that does fast assault better than those alien armies then that's one less reason to play non marine armies.

I wasn't aware that Guard were a variant of Space Marine. Who was their Primarch?


EDIT: some people choose their army based on play style. If GW can ensure the most playstyles available to space marines, then they ensure they sell more space marines. Which is their main line. So why not?

Another Marine conspiracy on Warseer. Who would have thought?

Ichigo
01-03-2011, 04:03
Did someone seriously just claim that Ogryn are better than Warriors? Really?

Yeah, he went there. I'm equally confused.

LoneSniperSG
01-03-2011, 04:12
Here, let me fix that.

It's because the players of Space Marine armies moan that they can't do something that another army can.

Seriously, how long after a xenos race gets something interesting or unique before it shows up in a Marine army in some form or manner. And if not, then guaranteed you'll see a specific counter.

I'm waiting to see other Marine chapters get Sagas like the Space Wolves before I start complaining.



I wasn't aware that Guard were a variant of Space Marine. Who was their Primarch?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ollanius_Pius OLLANIUS PIUS OF COURSE!


The guard received the Valkyrie, a better falcon. ogryns got better than tyranid warriors. The stormraven is a better falcon. It's definitely not a whole army thing, but if you can get a marine army that does fast assault better than those alien armies then that's one less reason to play non marine armies.

I totally disagree. Ogryns are 70% worthless, since you can't rile them up with Priests anymore. Stormravens are junk and totally inferior to the Valkyrie since it lacks the Valk's default Extra Armor and Rocket Pods. Ultimately both aircraft are big, intimidating bullet magnets and even though I love my Valkyrie, I'm quite positive the Eldar Falcon does the job better.

Hendarion
01-03-2011, 05:28
Clearly the designers disagree with you on what Eldar "need". It's easy to compare C:E and C:SM and complain about differences, when you ignore internal balance though, I guess.
What exactly was that internal balance in C:BA and C:SW again? Because at the moment I don't remember. And I don't see it yet in C:GK either.

Israfael
01-03-2011, 06:44
What exactly was that internal balance in C:BA and C:SW again? Because at the moment I don't remember. And I don't see it yet in C:GK either.

Are you insinuating that Blood Angels are imbalanced? Grey Knights as well, when the codex isn't even out yet?

Are you going to be that guy?

Nurgling Chieftain
01-03-2011, 07:04
EDIT: ^ Why would anyone bother insinuating? Blood Angels are internally imbalanced. That's hardly even worth arguing about.


But can you point to a xenos army that has received something that marines have unqiuely possessed? I can't think of anything.Feel No Pain. Started with Death Company, now it's virtually universal. Rage, too. And Furious Charge came from Blood Angels, too, for that matter. And I think Slow&Purposeful started with Chaos Marines? ...And mostly remained with Chaos, aside from Broadsides of course. Weird, really. True Grit started with Space Wolves, de facto escaped to Kroot, and then was made altogether redundant starting with the Eldar Autarch. Acute Senses also started with Space Wolves and has since migrated to Tau and Dark Eldar. Stubborn started with Dark Angels, changed forms, and ended up in a few places, mostly Commissars. Preferred Enemy substantially changed forms this edition, but has its roots in Black Templars. Counter-Attack is kind of like that, too, started with Space Wolves, migrated around, and then changed form.

Honestly, Blood Angels and Space Wolves together spawned a very substantial following throughout the milieu.

FarseerMatt
01-03-2011, 07:47
True Grit started with Space Wolves, de facto escaped to Kroot, and then was made altogether redundant starting with the Eldar Autarch.

I'd say it was made redundant starting with CSM, who were given bolters, pistols AND ccw to make them more versatile. This idea was quickly snapped up by their loyalist counterparts (clearly, some tech-priest has recently revolutionised 40K by discovering the STC for a pistol holster!).

Other examples I can think of of rules being spread around:

Turbo-boost (4th edition) was originally unique to Dark Eldar, but the writers at least allowed them to maintain some edge by allowing Eldar / Dark Eldar jetbikes to move an extra 6" in the assault phase.

Armour-piercing sniper rifles (5th edition) were originally unique to Eldar. While it does make sniper units more attractive, it leaves Rangers a little overcosted.

The inverse case is combat tactics - being able to choose to fail morale checks was originally an optional rule for everyone in the back of 3rd edition. However, it remained optional because the writers admitted that it made "high Ld troops, particularly space marines (who could auto-regroup) even better" and that there were "many ways to abuse this rule horribly". I don't know if changes to the core rules since 3rd edition have made it less broken.

Death Company
01-03-2011, 07:53
EDIT: ^ Why would anyone bother insinuating? Blood Angels are internally imbalanced. That's hardly even worth arguing about.

Care to explain?

Nurgling Chieftain
01-03-2011, 07:58
I'd say it was made redundant starting with CSM...Even among Space Marines, the Dark Angels HQ's had it before the Chaos Space Marines. CSM's were the first Troops to have that setup - well, no, even then the Kroot basically had it first. Really, the CSM's, other than Nurgle, were pretty late to the party.

I was responding to the mistaken notion that Marine USR's in particular don't get spread around. Given that USR's didn't even exist in 3rd edition (and boy was that a mess), I don't think the notion that they've spread in general is contested.

EDIT:
Care to explain?Not really. That horse is long since dead.

Hendarion
01-03-2011, 08:05
Are you insinuating that Blood Angels are imbalanced? Grey Knights as well, when the codex isn't even out yet?

Are you going to be that guy?
Yes, I am. To all of your questions. Now is there an answer to my question?

Shamana
01-03-2011, 08:27
Clearly the designers disagree with you on what Eldar "need". It's easy to compare C:E and C:SM and complain about differences, when you ignore internal balance though, I guess.

Yes, it appears they do - at least for now. Mind you, internal balance has little to do with that - just because some units in a codex are worse off than others doesn't mean much to how the codex works together against other armies. Right now, having assault specialists that can't assault from a moving vehicle is an instance where the Eldar codex doesn't click very well - it slows down an army that is supposed to be fast.


Everyone can run now, and almost every codex now has something that has fleet - which was his original point. The blending of the armies is happening across all codices; it's not just Marines stealing your precious toys. People are being given more ways to field their armies than before.

True, which is a serious bonus for units that didn't have it and wanted to get somewhere fast. Well, some marines get the new fleet too... Imagine that, raven guard termies fleeting ;) .

Poseidal
01-03-2011, 08:47
The same principle that gave us the AP system and nerfed the Starcannon.

Kal Taron
01-03-2011, 09:18
Ultimately both aircraft are big, intimidating bullet magnets and even though I love my Valkyrie, I'm quite positive the Eldar Falcon does the job better.
Made my day.

Shamana
01-03-2011, 11:19
I think the three best "heavy" skimmers right now might be Vendetta, Stormraven, and Valkyrie, in that order. YMMV, and all that.