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Malchek
24-03-2006, 22:17
Hi everyone,

I usually go for lots of troops in my armies with as few characters and mosters as possible but I feel like a change and have devised a new chaos army with this in mind.

Your thoughts, suggestions and criticisms are all welcomed I do want this army to be competitive! ;)

Thanks in advance

1 x Lord of Chaos - Barded Chaos Steed, Rending sword, chaos runeshield

- 4 x knights of chaos musician + standard

1 x sorcerer of chaos - lvl 2, power familiar, lore of death.

- 14 x marauders of chaos - light armour, shields, standard, musician,

5 x knights of chaos - musician, standard, chosen

12 x warriors of chaos - shields, full command, chosen,

12 x warriors of chaos - shields, full command

4 x minotaurs - additional hand weapons

1 x dragon ogre shaggoth, great weapon, light armour

This all comes to 1998 pts

What do you think....?

I had 5 pts spare so plumped for the light armour on the shaggoth to add to his scaly skin save - presumably for a +3 overall...?

I originally had the minotaurs with great weapons but couldn't find the points so had to downgrade to additional hand weapons.

This is quite a small compact force compared to my current chaos army but I think it would work well - basically headlong charge across the table I really like my Chaos Lord character and his attendant knights I reckon they'll be hard to live with.

Anyway enough of my ramblings!!!! Tell me what u think...?

Cheers Malchek ;)

MarcoPollo
25-03-2006, 00:58
Perhaps some beast herds to protect them from shooting.

Perhaps some furries to deal with the warmachines.

ROCKY
25-03-2006, 01:06
I personally perfer dragon ogres than shaggoths, A unit of 4 of them will be a force to fear. As for a Sorcerer, if you only have one, high probability you will not pull off a single spell so take him down a level and give him two scrolls or make your general an exalted and take 2 scorcerers. As for the general, I would highly recommend giving him the gaze and as for armor I would think the enchanted shiled works good (o+armor save if he is on a barded steed) as for the weapons I would take the great fang (50points no armor saves). AS for your units, I would definately up the marauders at least by 10, make all your chaos knight units 5strong, I would drop one unit of warriors and make the other 15-18 strong. Thats about it, As for the minataurs, they (from experience) do not perform well unless they have the mark of Slaanesh, or nurgle. I would ditch them and gets some furies/screamers to go hunting. Good luck.

Malchek
25-03-2006, 10:15
thanks for your replies.

As for making the 4 chaos knights 5 the Lord of Chaos will be riding with this unit making them 5.

I think the chaos Lord's outfit makes him a real headache for enemy charaters - chaos runeshield means their magical weapons are void and the rending sword means multi-wound opponents wont be staying around long.... ;)

I usually try and avoid magic at all costs considering only a magic defence and leaving the winning of the battle to my troops but I wanted something more than a scroll caddy, its not a brilliant magic defence or attack but its better than nothing right...? I'm trying to be more considered in my approach - if someone goes magic heavy I wont be able to contend much even with 2 dispel scrolls - at least this guy has 3 dispel dice - not bad...? And he can pack a bit of a punch or am I just being idolistic...? ;)

I'm not keen on Dragon Ogre models but I like the Shaggoth model I also really want a big creature in the army just for the change so I'd have to replace it with another large model... I think I have my heart set on this one...

As for the minotaurs I hear what u say - again I'm in love with the models and the idea - should I let this win over rational concerns about winning games 16 s4 attacks is pretty handy with fear...?

Before u think I'm rubbishing all ur ideas I think ur right about the chaos warriors and marauders.

The marauders are really just a nice big meat shield for my sorcerer and to hold large enemy units up so I can get a flank/rear charge but to do that they need to be larger.

The chaos warriors are, on reflection, too small and will get shot to hell so really one larger unit would suffice maybe with a beastherd as Marcopollo suggested (or 2) to cover them - this is what my normal chaos army fields so wont be a problem fielding.

I'll change the list and repost on this thread hopefully I'll get some more ideas ;)

If anyone wants to try and persuade me otherwise on the Lord, sorcerer, minotaurs and Shaggoth please have a go ;)

Neknoh
25-03-2006, 11:20
First of all, the Chaos Lord doesn't matter for the Knights being 5 or not, if there are only 4 Knights in the unit, the Lord doesn't get a Look Out Sir, and, without a Wardsave, that Lord is going to die very quickly to any form of Template Weapon.

As for the rest of the army, could work, however, there are some major flaws:

1. Non-chosen Warriors should be fielded in blocks of at least 16 if given only Shields and a Full Command to support them in combat, they are mean, but not THAT mean.

2. Chosen Warriors, if fielded in numbers of 12, should ALWAYS be given Shield and another weapon (Greatweapon or Hallberd, I prefer Hallberds myself) in order to be protected well from shooting and dishing out loads of hurt in Close Combat, line them up in 2 ranks of 6.

3. What on earth do you think 14 Marauders and a Sorceror will accomplish? This unit is free Victory Points for your opponent.
Drop 1 Minotaur from your Mino-Unit and get those numbers up to at LEAST 20 Marauders to make them useful.
Also, a Champion in hte unit will be worth GOLD! Even a moderate fighty character can beat the crap out of a sorceror blindfolded and with his hands backbound. A Champion upgrade will be able to save the Sorceror for at least one round of combat, which might be enough to either bring another unit to bear or to make the static combat resolution and high stats of the marauders

4. A single level 2 in 2k won't get anything through and won't protect you, dump him, make him a scroll caddy or get him someone to play with.

5. Your only source of Fast Cavalry is your Dragon Ogre Shaggoth (Monster Movement allows him to turn freely, which is just like the movement of Fast Cavalry), and he can't be everywhere.
I'd drop the second units of Chaos Knights and get at least one unit of Marauder Horsemen with Flails and Musician.
For the rest of the points, I'd get 3 or 4 new Warriors to your Warrior unit to bump them to 15 (three ranks of 5, but then, you'd better get them the Warbanner and some weapons that can deal out hurt) or 16 (four ranks of four, preferably a Warbanner in there as well, but not really the same need for ouchy weapons).

6. Your Lord is designed to kill characters, however, this makes him useful at a maximum of four times (other than overkill, in which case, the Shield is not needed), so, I'd drop the Runeshield in favour of the Crown of Everlasting Conquest or the Gaze of the Gods and an Enchanted Shield.

Just my two cents.

Malchek
25-03-2006, 13:31
ok everyone I've taken on board your comments and come up with a revised list which I think kicks ass ;)

Tell me what u think...

1 x Lord of Chaos, Lord of Tzeentch (lvl 4 sorcerer) Lore of Tzeentch, Chaos Runeshield, Rending Sword, Barded chaos steed

5 x knights of chaos, full command, chosen,

1 x aspiring champion of chaos, additional hand weapon, sword of might
- 19 marauders, light armour shields, standard, musician,

16 x warriors of chaos, full command, chosen, shields, halberds,

4 x minotaurs, additional hand weapons,

1 x draon ogre shaggoth, great weapon, light armour,

10 x gors additional hand weapons, 9 x ungors spears, full command

= 1999 pts

What do you think...? The Lord solves my magic problems for less pts and I've got a jiucy cc character for my marauders I think this list is cool and a big departure from my usual armies ;)

Thanks in advance ;)

ROCKY
25-03-2006, 13:41
ok everyone I've taken on board your comments and come up with a revised list which I think kicks ass ;)

Tell me what u think...

1 x Lord of Chaos, Lord of Tzeentch (lvl 4 sorcerer) Lore of Tzeentch, Chaos Runeshield, Rending Sword, Barded chaos steed

5 x knights of chaos, full command, chosen,

1 x aspiring champion of chaos, additional hand weapon, sword of might
- 19 marauders, light armour shields, standard, musician,

16 x warriors of chaos, full command, chosen, shields, halberds,

4 x minotaurs, additional hand weapons,

1 x draon ogre shaggoth, great weapon, light armour,

10 x gors additional hand weapons, 9 x ungors spears, full command

= 1999 pts

What do you think...? The Lord solves my magic problems for less pts and I've got a jiucy cc character for my marauders I think this list is cool and a big departure from my usual armies ;)

Thanks in advance ;)
Eyyahh...I think that we need to rehearse what Nekoh and I just siad...Your Lord being the only character, an expensive one at that WILL be the main focus of the enemy and HE/SHE will easily destroy him. Trust me take the gaze, enchanted shield and any weapon. As for the units I would increase the marauders, change the beastherd and make to small ones of 5gors and 5ungors, with musicians.

Neknoh
25-03-2006, 14:04
new cents:

1. The worst part is that the Lord can't even go with the Knights, so, either the Crown or the Gaze, and, as said before, you have very little magic... not to mention you've put over 150 points of a lore FILLED with magic missiles and spells that require Line of Sight on a dude that you WANT to have in combat ASAP (that Shield protects him best in combat, as does his weapon, not to mention he's on a horse and is supposed to go with the Knights).

So, remove he Mark of Tzeentch from him and swap the Runeshield for something.


2. NEVER take an Aspiring Champion unless playing Cult of Slaanesh (in which case, there are better choices still), Warbands or Border Patroll (games where you want low costed characters). Use 20 of the points from the Lord and upgrade him to an Exalted Champion. The Additional handweapon doesn't benefit him in any way, and, if you're not going to take a shield, it's not even worth wasting 25 points on the Sword of Might, get him a Hallberd in that case, the exact same effect and keeps his cost down.

Now, this guy actually could be given the Runeshield to keep a nasty suprise if you are expecting to face characters with mega slying weapons of doom, however, keep the Hallberd, seeing as it will allow him to either opt for strength 5 (if Exalted Champion), a 3+ Armoursave (the Shield doesn't grant the bonus of Handweapon And Shield) and nulliffying magical weapons in btb when facing characters, or, he could go for strength 6 and a 4+ armoursave when slaughtering Rank and File.

I'd most deffinately invest in a Warbanner for your Knights and the Mark of Tzeentch and the Blasted Standard or a Mark of Slaanesh and the Raptorous Standard for your Warriors, seeing as you will have an undivided general and you WANT to keep them chosen allive, and, seeing as you'll lack magic, the Slaanesh and Raptorous will probably keep them better protected from Knight charges and such.

3. Drop two Gors and get four more Ungors, will grant both CR and surviviabillity to the herd.

4. NEVER replace a R&F soldier with a character, if you are going to bring the aspiring (which should be an Exalted) with the Marauders, still have 20 marauders, also, a Champion is still a good investment, allowing the Exalted to brutally butcher anything that comes in his way instead of getting tied up with a Unit Champion and thus might gett your unit the risk of not killing off the first rank when charging, which can tip the balance greatly in your enemy's favour if he manages to get some wounds back at you.

5. I still see no rankbreaking units with free reform other than the Shaggoth, you need a unit of Fast Cavalry of some sort, be it Fleshhounds, Mounted Daemonettes or Marauder Horsemen.

And a question:

The Minotaurs could be used either to smash hordes or to crack armour, whichone do you want them to do?

ROCKY
25-03-2006, 14:18
I also think that having a lord in a 2000point game is not as rewarding as having 2exalteds and a scorcerer(caddie), That way you can have more freedom in deciding roles for the characters, And as for what Nekoh said about the fast cav, hes right, you need distractions, plus I ALWAYS field hunters (either screamers or furies or BOTH) they can distract your opponent and tear cannon crew apart.

Malchek
25-03-2006, 15:51
1. The worst part is that the Lord can't even go with the Knights, so, either the Crown or the Gaze, and, as said before, you have very little magic... not to mention you've put over 150 points of a lore FILLED with magic missiles and spells that require Line of Sight on a dude that you WANT to have in combat ASAP (that Shield protects him best in combat, as does his weapon, not to mention he's on a horse and is supposed to go with the Knights).'Make your mind up friend - either I don't have any magic or I have loads of magic which one is it....? lvl 4 sorcerer = 6 power dice and four dispel dice all I've done is lose the single 170pt sorcerer which is useless - spent 140pts and got a lvl 4 sorcerer which kicks ass both in magic and close combat....? Can u think of a better combination? As an independent character he is protected from being directly targetted as long as I'm careful with deployment so I can't see the problem....? The knights are hardy enough on their own.
'So, remove he Mark of Tzeentch from him and swap the Runeshield for something.'Whats wrong with the runeshield...? Any special characters I come up against weilding nasty weapons of doom are nullified - and with the Rending sword combo this is the best outfit for taking dwon enemy characters. As for taking on enemy units, with that number of attacks I don't think he's going to have many problems do u...?
'2. NEVER take an Aspiring Champion unless playing Cult of Slaanesh (in which case, there are better choices still), Warbands or Border Patroll (games where you want low costed characters). Use 20 of the points from the Lord and upgrade him to an Exalted Champion. The Additional handweapon doesn't benefit him in any way, and, if you're not going to take a shield, it's not even worth wasting 25 points on the Sword of Might, get him a Hallberd in that case, the exact same effect and keeps his cost down.'Can I just remind u that u posted this before......
'Also, a Champion in hte unit will be worth GOLD! Even a moderate fighty character can beat the crap out of a sorceror blindfolded and with his hands backbound. A Champion upgrade will be able to save the Sorceror for at least one round of combat, which might be enough to either bring another unit to bear or to make the static combat resolution and high stats of the marauders'I went one better than a unit champion and imported an aspiring champion - he aint the hottest in the world but he is far better than a unit champ (especially a marauder unti champ) An aspiring champion is just what this unit needs as u rightly said before. An additional hand weapon gives him another attack and the sword of might upgrades all those attacks to s 6 = -3 save mod - now that's handy.
''d most deffinately invest in a Warbanner for your Knights and the Mark of Tzeentch and the Blasted Standard or a Mark of Slaanesh and the Raptorous Standard for your Warriors, seeing as you will have an undivided general and you WANT to keep them chosen allive, and, seeing as you'll lack magic, the Slaanesh and Raptorous will probably keep them better protected from Knight charges and such.'No need to invest more points in warbanners with magic missiles if I've got a Lord lvl 4 sorcerer = more points saved - the knights will also want to be in cc at all times so a bit wasteful as per your earlier arguments.
'3. Drop two Gors and get four more Ungors, will grant both CR and surviviabillity to the herd.'I think this is a good idea and will follow your advice (see I'm not flaming u needlessly ;)
'4. NEVER replace a R&F soldier with a character, if you are going to bring the aspiring (which should be an Exalted) with the Marauders, still have 20 marauders,'why??????? ur just gaining one more arrow catcher to protect ur rank bonus which will be gone in another wounds time = no need.
'5. I still see no rankbreaking units with free reform other than the Shaggoth, you need a unit of Fast Cavalry of some sort, be it Fleshhounds, Mounted Daemonettes or Marauder Horsemen.'I agree its just a matter of fitting them in and I'm right off Flesh hounds (2 units in my chaos army getting bored of frenzy) Marauder light cav do well to last till turn 2... so a bit stumped....
'And a question:The Minotaurs could be used either to smash hordes or to crack armour, whichone do you want them to do?
Agree - was going to go for anti-armour = great weapons - but coulldn't find the points so had to plump for additional.Please remember I'm trying to get away from minimal characters, scroll caddies and large numbers of rank and file troops - thats what most of my armies are and I really fancy a change.However, feel free (as I'm sure u will ;) to shoot me down mercilessly ;)Cheers Malchek

Neknoh
25-03-2006, 16:16
1. A total of four levels of magic can work, if that Lord instead would've been an exalted sorceror of Slaanehs with the Daemonsword, I would have had no problem whatsoever.

The problem is, that the Tzeentch lore almost exclusevly requires Line of Sight for its spells, meaning that your 140 points will be wasted round 2 or 3 when he ends up in combat and cannot cast anything worth noting (if he only can cast 1 or 2 spells, they'll be dispelled).

The Runeshield is fine, however, it is not the best he could get, after a single cannonball or stonethrower, that unit of Knights is going to be down to 4, also, things such as Wights, Graveguard, Blackknights and Tomb Guards amongst others have built-in Killing Blow, this is NOT nullified by the shield, thus, a single 6=a dead and really expensive wizard-lord.

Also, the Runeshield will only be effective in a maximum of 4 occasions in a game, whilst Regeneration or a Wardsave will be effective a LOT more, if your friends are using Special Characters and Weapons of Doom, the Crown of Everlasting Conquest is better due to the fact that you only ever have to roll a 4+ on 1 out of the perhaps 10 wounding dices to stand back up and cancel a lot of combat resolution.
But, if your opponents uses a lot of Killingblow, the Gaze of the Gods is better due to protecting him from it.

As for the number of attacks, I never told you to drop the Rending Sword, the Rending Sword is fine, especially seeing as the things that can threaten his unit will most likely have at least 2 wounds.

2. Actually, I never mentioned an Aspiring Champion, when I said Champion upgrade, I meant a Chieftan, and I still stand by my argument for Exalteds over Aspirings, for 20 points, you get higher WS, I, ld, the abillity to be a general (only important when including Beastlords at 2k) AND you get +1 Attack.

And actually, an Aspiring Champion does NOT benefit from both an Additional Handweapon and a Magical Weapon, since he MUST use the Magical Weapon solely, without any other weapon at the same time, this is why the Additional Handweapon is useless. So, you don't have a sheild and you only have 3 strength 6 attacks, an Exalted with a Hallberd does the same thing but better for only 1 more point (if not even 1 point less).

As for the banners, neither of the two are shooting Magical Missiels, that's the banner of wrath, I suggest you have another look at them, the Raptorous Standard gives the unit the Soporific Musk abillity and the Blasted Standard have a bound Yellow Fire which grants the carrier unit a 5+ Wardsave as long as it remains in play (and that is the reason why I leaned towards the Raptorous Standard, will protect them better in combat and is actually activated all the time and it cannot be dispelled)

As for the Warbanner, it is always good to have one on Chosen Knights in case they fluff their attacks.

4. Not only that, but, if you need to redeploy the character or dump him in another unit at the start of the game due to you discovering a weakness in your setup, you will still have a full man unit.

Marauder Cav with Flails and Musician will do quite well, of course, if your opponents shoots them turn 1 and turn 2, that means you'll charge in turn 3 with full numbers on your other units.

Otherwise, it's just up to you to handle them with care, if you do it right, your opponent won't be able to shoot at them untill it's too late.

If you are prepared ot try them out, Mounted Daemonettes makes for very evil flankers.

Now, these are my two cents.

Malchek
25-03-2006, 16:48
Thanks,

plan 3

1 x Lord of Tzeentch - Disc of Tzeentch, 1 x dispel scroll, Gaze of the Gods, Halberd

(magic should well and truly be covered + quite handy in cc if need arises)

1 x Exalted Champion - Rending Sword, barded chaos steed, shield,

(now to join knights = multi wound + character killer...?)

5 x knights of chaos - chosen, standard, musician

16 x warriors of chaos - shields, halberds, chosen, full command

4 x minotaurs, additional hand weapons,

1 x dragon ogre shaggoth, great weapon,

20 x chaos marauders, full command, light armour shields

8 x Gors additional hand weapons 12 x ungors - full command

= 1998 pts

Whadda ya think now...?

Small but perfectly formed...?

Still couldn't fit light cav in and not sure if I want any of the options open.

The Lord is now an out and out magic maestro

The aspiring champ is now exalted and mounted to join the knights to get him where I need him quicker.

Marauders and Beastmen are meat grinders to hold enemy units,

Shaggoth = anti -armour (pretty much everything else too)

Minotaurs = anti - horde + fear inducing...

Chosen warriors... need I say more... :)

Thanks in advance - ur comments ARE appreciated and heeded ;)

Neknoh
25-03-2006, 20:03
Looking better and better, some slight points:

1. Your Lord will be much better off with the Gaze of the Gods if he's on a Disc of Tzeentch, seeing as he'll only be charged in if the need really arises and that there's only one Killingblow Unit which he cannot avoid easely (Wardancers), so a 3+ Wardsave aggainst any form of missiles is very handy when you count as a Large Target, you could also throw in a Power Stone to make sure that you don't miss a chance to blast the enemy to smithereens.

2. A Warbanner on either your Warriors or your Knights is soemthing I still think is needed, especially seeing as you don't have any fast cavalry to cancel the oppositions ranks, it is good if you manage to start the battle on equal/less differing terms.

3. As you said yourself, it is indeed hard to fit some Fast Cavalry into this list, so, basically, try the list out and see how it goes, if it doesn't work, perhaps drop the Mintaurs in favour of a unit of Marauder Horsemen, due to the fact that if you want to slaughter loads of troops, an exalted Champion with a unit of Chosen Knights as well as a unit of Warriors will do that pretty good themselves whilst the Beastherds whipes upp anything left behind.

Good luck, let's see how it does.

Malchek
26-03-2006, 00:31
Thanks Neknoh, you know u r now my personal warhammer FB mentor don't u...? ;)

Thanks for all ur help ;)

The_powers_of_chaos
24-04-2006, 19:44
Get as many shaggoths as you can with light armour and great weapon ive played like 3 games 4000Pt with 4 of them there evil

ROCKY
24-04-2006, 20:40
4shaggoths are a waste of points. they take up a rare and a special slot. plus they are big ass targets and will be the focus of the enemy. Dragon ogres are far better. you can have 3of them for less than that (with light armor and GWs) which means tons of S7 attacks and a 4+armor save, and 4wounds each! thats 12!

The_powers_of_chaos
25-04-2006, 18:13
Rocky im seriously starting to dislike your hate for shaggoths

der_lex
25-04-2006, 18:28
Nekhoh - I assume you meant the Golden Eye instead of the Gaze of the Gods in your last post?

Powers - ROCKY could say the same thing about your excessive love for Shaggoths. If you like them, fine, but there are a lot of things to be said in favor of taking a larger army instead of smaller one with a few big critters that will probably get blasted to bits in two turns or so. I know it's tempting for new Chaos Players to focus on all those big characters, but in the end it's your rank and file and your ability to prevent your opponent from outmaneuvering you that'll save the day for Chaos.

So pla;) y nice, kids

ROCKY
26-04-2006, 00:31
Indeed...I hate it when a cat's speech begins to make sense to me...

Alex Under
27-04-2006, 09:25
Your list is fine, at least it's not the typical list everyone expects from a Chaos General... I think your general is a risk being both your wizard and fighty character, but hey, it's cool to risk! ;). He will be decisive or he will be a waste of points so look after him!

Anyway, the opponent (unless he has very heavy firepower) will have to decide to aim and try to bring down the Shaggoth or your General, if he goes for both, both of them with a wound or two less wil get into combat and that's the game for you if those two beasts make it into CC.

I do miss some Furies in that list, I am a huge Fury Fan, especially when you consider that warmachines are your main menace with a list like yours and that if you get to take out enemy wizards, you will dominate the magic phase with a great and nasty lore, but that said, I can't see how you can fit them in without dropping other units that are also useful.

So anyway, have fun, enjoy and spread Chaos throughout the Old World! :D