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Lord Solar Plexus
04-03-2011, 08:14
Here's the situation:

AAA---------><------------BBBB
AAA---------><------------BBBB
AAA---------><------------BBBB

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

A, B, C = units. C facing "up", A + B facing left/right

C is in A + B's front arc. Units must charge the arc the majority of models is in, no exceptions.

Have A + B stopped C dead in its tracks?

mortiferum
04-03-2011, 08:22
assuming unit C charges unit A - wouldn't unit C allign best as possible to the front of A - (which in this case would effectively be the flank of unit A) if theres insufficient room for unit C to wheel then it might also have to charge unit B? - then because unit C cant 'close the door' wouldn't unit A wheel 90° to close the door?

Vice versa if unit C charges unit B?

Charging More Than One Unit – BRB p18
“A unit can normally only declare a charge at a single enemy unit. However, if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another then the charging unit must also also charge against the other unit/s.”

Unusual Situations – BRB p22
“Sometimes a charging unit can move into contact with its target, but cannot cclose the door because something else lies in the way, normally another unit or piece of terrain. (snip) in some cases the enemy unit might have to close the door with the chargers instead….”

tmarichards
04-03-2011, 08:40
From the way the picture is drawn, unit C appears to be in the flank arc of whichever unit it charges.

b4z
04-03-2011, 08:53
From the way the picture is drawn, unit C appears to be in the flank arc of whichever unit it charges.
regardless of the diagram, the intent is as below...

C is in A + B's front arc. Units must charge the arc the majority of models is in, no exceptions.

Warhammer Rulebook P.21
If a charging unit straddles two zones, then the unit is considered to be in the zone where the majority of the models in its front rank are.

And regarding the Original Question, i think mortiferum has it correct...

C is ABLE to charge A in terms of fulfilling the criteria of a Charge.
C is unable to close the door because of B.
At which point it becomes A's responsibility to close the door with the maximum 90 degree wheel.

However it will mean that C will come into base contact with B as part of charging A...

Therefore C would have to declare a Charge against both A AND B in the Front Arc, with both units A and B having to Close the Door with their Maximum 90 degree Wheel.

That all complies with the Charging Rules as written in the Rulebook.

A front arc is south. B front arc is south. C front arc is north.

_____________________BBB
___AAA_______________BBB
___AAA_______________BBB
___AAA_______________BBB
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Lord Solar Plexus
04-03-2011, 09:08
There is insufficient room to charge the front without contacting - and therefore declaring a charge against - the second unit regardless of which one you charge first. The wheel would always bring you into contact with the one charged "in addition".

The majority of C is in A, B's front arc but unable to contact the front of any of its targets, only the flank.

Closing the door does IMO not come into play because this only happens after contact has been made, and contact must be made in the correct arc.

mortiferum
04-03-2011, 09:44
Closing the door does IMO not come into play because this only happens after contact has been made, and contact must be made in the correct arc.

In your diagram, unit C is able to contact the very corner of the front arc of either unit A or B.

However, I think it is possible to align units A and B so that they (by RAW) do become unassailable. See attached diagrams.

Grey dotted line illustrates how much of unit C is in front arc
Red dotted line on unit A illustrates where contact is required to make a front arc charge.

Diagram 1 is basically what I understand your diagram to look like.
Diagram 2 is very similiar to Diagram 1 but units A and B are at a very slight angle, so much so that its not possible for unit C to make contact with that corner of either Unit A or B.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d112/r555ung/Internet%20Play/lsp.jpg

Easy to pull off using 2 fast (so they have the speed) single unit models (so they get unlimited reforms). Whilst strictly feasible I'd feel 'dirty' using this tactic.

b4z
04-03-2011, 09:50
Easy to pull off using 2 fast (so they have the speed) single unit models (so they get unlimited reforms). Whilst strictly feasible I'd feel 'dirty' using this tactic.
Your Diagram 2: A = Great Eagle, B = Great Eagle, C = Deathstar Unit :D :D :D

---------

Yes... i agree. touching the corner is enough. By touching the corner you are JUST touching the Front Arc of Unit A and Unit B,
at which point, you are unable to Wheel to Maximise yourself, so A and B have to do so using their 90 Degree Wheel.

It all seems within the Rules. And is actually a satisfactory resolution for a strange [yet probably common] problem.

The unit C is 22 models wide, 4 deep, what kind of unit is that exactly? :D Slaves? Goblins?

Heres a Diagram i made, using your A B C formation exactly above.

mortiferum
04-03-2011, 09:56
Heres a Diagram i made, using your A B C formation exactly above.

Archangelion
04-03-2011, 10:02
I don't know why the unit is 22 models wide. Clearly, by your diagram above b4z the large unit could actually afford to loose a few columbs to make it a standard hoard unit.

I agree with the conclusion you have come to, concerning how the charge would work with the target units closing the door. I also agree that mortiferum's diagram of the unasailable units, that they would infact be unasailable.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-03-2011, 10:55
Just to clarify: The diagram wasn't intended to allow a possible corner charge. Just extend unit C a bit so that touching the corner isn't an issue.

Even so, how is the corner in the front? Isn't it 50/50 and you're coming from the flank? And even if *this* isn't an issue, would C not stop when contacting said corner and thereby only charge one unit?

By touching the corner you are JUST touching the Front Arc of Unit A and Unit B, at which point, you are unable to Wheel to Maximise yourself, so A and B have to do so using their 90 Degree Wheel.

I don't understand this. You declare a charge on A and subsequently on B. You wheel towards A (B) to maximize. During this wheel, you contact B (A) precisely at the corner, but not the unit you first declared a charge against because you stop right there.

At this point, you have already wheeled to maximize, so saying that you are unable to do so sounds wrong - the corner is the extent you could possibly maximize. Now it is time to close the door.

I agree that in this case, the unit you did contact closes the door but is that really limited to a wheel of up to 90 degrees?

Mid'ean
04-03-2011, 11:18
Here's the same topic in TWF.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83525

If someone tried that tactic on me and told me I couldn't charge either unit I would thank them for their game, pick up my models and consider such person a tool and wouldn't bother playing them again. The game is about having a good time and enjoying a tactical exercise of the mind and pushing little men around the table....:) JMO though....:D

Frosty_TK
04-03-2011, 11:24
I don't understand this. You declare a charge on A and subsequently on B. You wheel towards A (B) to maximize. During this wheel, you contact B (A) precisely at the corner, but not the unit you first declared a charge against because you stop right there.

At this point, you have already wheeled to maximize, so saying that you are unable to do so sounds wrong - the corner is the extent you could possibly maximize. Now it is time to close the door.

I agree that in this case, the unit you did contact closes the door but is that really limited to a wheel of up to 90 degrees?

Wasn't there a clause, that you do not have to wheel to maximize if you would fail the charge, or was that last edition?

Otherwise, I support the solution posted by mortiferum and b4z.

b4z
04-03-2011, 12:25
Here's the same topic in TWF.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83525

Those 3 pages are well worth a read, Thanks :)

sssk
04-03-2011, 19:50
Those 3 pages are well worth a read, Thanks :)

Well I got most of the way through the first page, realised what a ridiculous point it was, and then abandoned the idea.

If this ever actually came up in a game (which I highly doubt), I'd either let them close the door (to present their flank or front, whichever they prefere) through a bit of bodge-ing, or, if they weren't going to settle for that, I'd take my leave of the game.

I don't play with expletives

AMWOOD co
04-03-2011, 20:02
Interesting read, yes. Necessary read, no. This comes down to the kind of situation that you call an arbitrator on at a tournament and then have the tournament organiser make an official ruling.

The fact that this setup can be done so easily (especially with anyone who have a cavalry character (ie. not dwarfs)) makes it something that each group will have to sort out on their own.

Personally, I'm all in favour of allowing the big unit to charging and having the little units (models?) close the door. Doesn't matter what side of the table I'm on, that's just a bad spot to be in for the little guy.

Lord Inquisitor
04-03-2011, 20:31
Good to know about. Forwarned is forarmed. You can spot someone trying this little trick during their turn and deal with it long before it gets to the make-or-break declare charges step in your turn.

Archangelion
04-03-2011, 21:05
I was reading through my rulebook and something came to mind. When chargeing a unit... do you need to actually contact the apropriate flank? Or just make contact with the unit? Once contact is made, the door closes, either by the charger or the chargee.

Masque
05-03-2011, 10:11
The problem is that if you don't contact at least the corner of the facing you are charging then neither unit can close the door. Closing the door involves rotating the unit around a point and there is no point that either or both units can be rotated around that will bring the proper edges into alignment.

It bugs me that the rules refer to closing the door as a wheel because (normally) wheeling involves rotating a unit around its own corner whereas closing the door only does this half the time and the other half of the time rotates a unit around the opposing units corner.

Archangelion
05-03-2011, 11:36
Upon looking again at mortiferum's diagram, it actually looks like the unit is stradleing the chargee's zone, but regardless. My point is this, if such a situation arose, I think that I would let my oponent charge the flanks of those two units. Otherwise... I think I would have to take my rule book and give myself a severe beating with it.