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View Full Version : High Elf Sea Guard problem for a skaven player help!!!!



h4rdriv3
25-03-2006, 17:49
I play a skaven hoard army approx 178 models but am looking at tactics against high elf sea guard as i have a match with someone who plays them soon. We play approx 2000 points and i was wondering what equipment unit strategies work well against them as im sure hes going to shoot whatever unit my commander is in to spook it only way around it i can figure is to put him with the monks this is my list:

Grey seer, Tenebrous Cloak, Warpstone charm, Eye of the horned rat. 315pts

Warlock engineer SUA, UWEC, WB, Storm Deamon. 110pts

Warlock engineer SUA, UWEC, WB, Dispel Scroll *2. 135pts

Chieftain battle standard, Storm Banner, Heavy Armour. 149pts

3 * 23 Clan rats , Standard, Musician & ratling gun team. 570pts (total)

3 * 22 Slaves, musician 141pts (total)

3 * Rat Swarms 135pts

4 * Poisoned wind Globadiers 40pts

2 * 3 Gutter runners, Tunneling team, 2nd weapon, poisoned weapons. 102pts (total)

20 * Plague monks, full command, warbanner magic banner. 201pts

6 * Censor bearers. 102 pts

Total = 2000.

was toying with droping one of the globadiers and haveing umbranor on the monks instead of the warbanner to cut down the shooting.... any help guys (and gals) please im desperate. (tactics as well as equipment/unit stratedgies would be appreciated as well, sorry dont know what make up he is running other than he has bolt throwers and long bows in itand that from what ive been told i can activate my bsb as apparently the high elf special shooting phase counts as before the battle so the banner cannot be activated is this correct?)

Krootman
25-03-2006, 18:17
take bigger tunneling teams ino that way you can be sure that you will take his wm's down.

Donnie Darko
25-03-2006, 21:18
You're playing 3 Ratling Guns and are complaining? Running a SAD list against the Sear Guard army probably isn't such a good idea.

Try running a Balanced list, some Storm Virmn (the beefed up clanrats), since this army has no Calvary it suffers like any other HE infantry army.

Use lots of big blocks and simply overrun their overpriced inefective units. The tunnleing teams will make his Bolt Throwers go away, and your magic is much more effective than his shooting. Static CR will see you through the day.

Simply take units in excess of 24 models (30 is a good number) since shooting will then have no impact.

You know, just generally thinking outside your cookie cutter list

h4rdriv3
26-03-2006, 09:01
Just because i have three rattlings doesnt mean my list is automatically a sad army in fact i dont have that much by way of shooting my only other shooting unit are globadiers and they only really get to shoot once ive locked something in close combat.
Yes i have quite abit of magic but that is part of this armys theme, this is a balanced army that whittles down enemy then wins by static combat resolution.

What my current tactics are is to use the tunnelers for war machines and spread the rattlers along my line 1 on each flank and one in the middle my monks hold the middle. I then use the banner in my opponants first turn to cut down ALL SHOOTING includeing mine and to restrict mobility by making flying impossible I try to tie the enemies hardest unit with my swarms and warp lightning it to death with one of the warlocks and use the other warlock to whittle things before the monks hit home followed by the censers. My clanrats and slaves just set up at 90 to each other to make sure i can get a flank charge at any cavalry that try and "jump" into my line with charges.

There is ALOT of tactics with this army annd very little shooting yeah it has magic but most skaven armies do (lets be fair its one of their main strengths) i resent you calling this army a SAD army (wheres all the jezzails, wheres the third warlock, wheres the 4th rattling gun why am i taking a banner which gives all shooting a -2 modifier meaning id only hit on a 6 with my bs or only be able to shoot at all on a 4+).

Sorry for the rant but just because an army has a couple of rattling guns doesnt make it a SAD list this is unreasoned hatred and the only reason i have three and not 2 or 1 is because if i dont roll a 4+ i cant shoot it (even then it might blow up or back fire) so i ahhve three so that i can shoot atleast one if really needed to which makes this list balanced.

Im NOT worried about his shooting other than his "special turn" of shooting as what i didnt want was mass panic tests and all my shooting (as i only have the 4 globadiers besides the rattlers) dieing before the battle starts and just wanted advise.

I Didnt want to use stormvermin as this is a tourny list and stormvermin tend to be abit like the screaming bell (cost too much for what they do and reduce your ability to make a hord). Any ideas on formation or deployment strategies that would help versus the HE's? im kinda hopeing if i can avoid mass panicking my army and my plague monks get away realtively unscathed i can use them as an "ultimate combat unit" to pick apart his amry a unit at a time as chances are i will out no. and have better static combat resolution (with warbanner its 2+ so resolution with out no. is 6 before wounds or if i take umbranor 5 before wounds)

Major Defense
26-03-2006, 14:26
Any ideas on formation or deployment strategies that would help versus the HE's?Yes. As they already said, deploy something different! Your ratling guns will be dead as soon as they reach the table. If you want to take shooting units stick with a large group of 10+ Jezzials and/or a WLC. Either of those stand a far better chance of existing after the Sea Patrol's special round of shooting.

The storm banner is a great idea because it will deter shooting but only a WLC will be able to fire from your side while it is up. You're taking 8 ranks of magic and that's good too because in order for him to get his special shooting he will have to forego a lord level mage.

How smart is your friend? Do you know if he knows about this forum? I ask because after I've popped a SAD army's Sea Patrol cherry I'd expect them to do something exactly like we're discussing and build my army accordingly. Something like the Book of Hoeth with a scroll caddy and Banner of Sorcery to back him. BSB with World Dragon banner and a unit of 15 Shadow Warriors to shut down your lightning. Maybe a terror causing Merwyrm and only 2 RBTs.

h4rdriv3
26-03-2006, 17:47
As far as im aware we are both using tournament lists which is why im not tailoring it to suit his army, i expect my ratling guns to be useless vs his army but im thinking he will kill them will which mean he cant shoot at 3 other units but if 1 or more does survive they ARE allowed to shoot once ive activated the banner as they dont shoot using BS they "auto hit" which means on a 4+ i CAN use them.

I was thinking of deploying alot of my eggs in one basket (namely the monks as they dont panic) i was going to put my bsb, grey seer and one of the warlocks (the one with the scrolls) in the monks for deployment then moving the seer centrally once im in my first turn and skitterleaping my warlock into his more expensive troops to warp lightning them, my other warlock would be primarily there to use his scrolls and prevent them casting Curse of arrow attraction at all costs if the banner fails on a 1 or 2/and or in the first turn so i can close with more troops.
my slaves and clan rats would all deploy 90 degrees to each other to guarantee flank charges but basically sit still and let the rest of the army do the work until the late stages. My Monks would deploy in the center of my battle line initially (so that i can take advatage of my grey seers leadership) and would then speed towards their army to engage any softenned up units. My swarm would tie any hard units while my monks mop up (and if they are still alive which i doubt my censors would help) then last but deffinately not least my seer and warlocks would mage hammer the rest of his army at any and all opportunities and generally disupt his battle line as much as possible before the gutter runners turn up and motor any scroll caddys and war machines.

Latro
26-03-2006, 18:05
You are aware that during his "free" round of shooting he can't concentrate all shots on just one unit? A unit can only be targeted twice if all of your units have been targeted at least once.

... and you never need to make a panic test due to this "free" shooting.

It's all in the FAQ and Errata of the SoC lists.

:cool:

Major Defense
26-03-2006, 19:57
As far as im aware we are both using tournament lists which is why im not tailoring it to suit his army, i expect my ratling guns to be useless vs his army but im thinking he will kill them will which mean he cant shoot at 3 other units but if 1 or more does survive they ARE allowed to shoot once ive activated the banner as they dont shoot using BS they "auto hit" which means on a 4+ i CAN use them.There is no *IF* here. I promise you that any and all ratling guns you field will be the first things shot by 10+ model units and they will most certainly all be dead. Don't fool yourself with the idea of having any ratling guns on the table. The next thing he will shoot at are your expensive point/model units like plague monks or censer bearers.

The Sea Patrol's special round of shooting is the army's only real advantage over a regular HE list. If you concentrate on denying that shooting from doing any real damage to your army then the rest of the battle is just marching them down. Good idea to use as many tunneling teams as possible because they are not an option to be shot at.

Ganymede
26-03-2006, 22:36
Here are some hints.

1: First off, dump your ratling guns. I am not saying they won't be effective, it is just that they will all be dead before the game even starts due to your opponent's free, unrestricted shooting. Spend the points you save on cheap ranked units, especially speedy giant rat packs.

2: Your opponent will not really have heavily armored targets that your globadiers will be able to hurt. I suggest you replace these troops with night runners with extra hand weapons. They can perform similar roles (screens, marchblokers) and they will be able to wound the elves twice as often in HtH.

3: bump up your censer bearer units to 8-9 models. These guys are lethal against elves, and can single handedly break practically any elf infantry. unfortunately, your opponent will know this and seek to take them out with his free round of shooting. If your starting unit is large enough, he won't be able to kill enough with his initial volley, and you can safely screen them until they get into combat.

4: Since the enemy undoubtedly has a non-spellcaster lord, you can afford to drop one wizard and one scroll. Use the points you have saved to bulk up your clanrat units. The more models they have, the fewer panic tests they will have to take, and the less chance they will start to lose their rank bonus.

h4rdriv3
27-03-2006, 06:32
I didnt know about the not causeing panic test rule which makes me feel alot better thanks lattro.
Ganyemede and major defense this is a TOURNAMENT list unless it will help me against all armys i wont drop or take anything.
I have got two tunneling teams thankfully already and my plague monks i reckon are going to get umbranner instead of warbannner and i will lose 1 globadier to cover the cost as this would make this army harder against sea guard without costing much against other armies.
Now that i know about it not causing panic tsts i might move one or two of my charecters from the plague monks unit to make it abit less of a target (altho that might also work to my advantage as hes only going to know it has umbrannor after hes shot it lol)

Frankly
27-03-2006, 11:03
Ganyemede and major defense this is a TOURNAMENT list unless it will help me against all armys i wont drop or take anything.


So your looking for advice, but no willing to change your armylist which is lacking against a Sea Farers armylist?:rolleyes:

Other than that, your asking for tactical against an armylist that very few people get to play against.

A Seafarers armylist can be pretty different and extremely potent depending on who's playing it.

Monster heavy or Shooty/magic heavy will both give you alot of trouble since your have alot of units with low unit strength and low L.d.

If he goes shootyfor examle: Both his out of turn and in turn shooting + magic phases will course you alot of trouble firstly thought panic checks if you don't watch the distances between your units and secondly through taking away rank and file and unit size bonuses.

If he goes Monster terror causing for example: You face alot of panic checks inside and outside of combat, people who know how to combine monsters can cause any ono immune to pyshe armylist troubles.

Like other posters, I think that upping the size of alot of your units will help, not just against Sea Fairy's, but against alot of opponants.

Besides that, I think you've got quite a nice 2k armylist going on there ... I honestly don't know what Donnie Darko is going on about calling that a SAD list.

Good Luck.

Major Defense
27-03-2006, 11:47
So your looking for advice, but no willing to change your armylist which is lacking against a Sea Farers armylist?:rolleyes:No doubt! ;)

If I were considering Skaven against Sea Patrol IN A TOURNAMENT LIST then I would probably go for the Vermin Lord with blocks of 21 slaves/clan rats, a massive unit of Jezzials and a WLC guarded by night runners. Something like that.

h4rdriv3
27-03-2006, 17:14
So your looking for advice, but no willing to change your armylist which is lacking against a Sea Farers armylist?:rolleyes:

Thanks Frankly yeah im not looking to change the army list per say unless its a chnage that suits the theme of the army and would help against all enemies as a whole like taking umbranner instead of warbanner on the monks and losing one globadier as a result which i think is the way im going to go.


Other than that, your asking for tactical against an armylist that very few people get to play against.

Yep thats why i dont want to get to carried away with making the army the perfect Sea farer killing list (there arent many) so im just tweaking it a little so its still potent against other lists.


Monster heavy or Shooty/magic heavy will both give you alot of trouble since your have alot of units with low unit strength and low L.d.

I Admitedly dont know too much about monster heavy and what to expect thats why i want help so i know what to expect and look out for besides the arrows of doom comming at me. as for shooty/magic i was more worried about the shooting than the magic as i figure he will have a max 3 level 2 wizards (1 being a scroll caddy) as he cant take a lord level wizard if he wants the special shooting round.


If he goes shootyfor examle: Both his out of turn and in turn shooting + magic phases will course you alot of trouble firstly thought panic checks if you don't watch the distances between your units and secondly through taking away rank and file and unit size bonuses.

The shooting im worried about is mainly from his special turn as after that my banner will mean he is hitting on 5's at best 6's if he suffers ANY other penalty (like long range etc) should be able to keep the banner working for atleast 2 turns which means i should be in his line by the time it stops (fingers crossed) Magic should be too bad as i have 8 levels of magic and 2 dispel scrolls.

Do you know any unit combinations or evil elfy type tactics/equip-combinations i need to watch out for...?

Thanks Frankly for the help.

h4rdriv3
27-03-2006, 17:23
No doubt! ;)

If I were considering Skaven against Sea Patrol IN A TOURNAMENT LIST then I would probably go for the Vermin Lord with blocks of 21 slaves/clan rats, a massive unit of Jezzials and a WLC guarded by night runners. Something like that.

And probably lose as in the sea farers special shooting round they would shoot all your rattling guns then all your jezzails (any that survive would run after as they dont like panic tests) and lastly they would probably have a go at either the lord (going for lucky wounds) or the rats (clan bring their size down) without shooting youd face a long slog threw a killing ground of arrows as youd have no defense against there shooting and no units except the skitterleaping lord who could catch any of their units. thats why i take the banner and multiple warlocks as i cut down shooty armies and also skitterleap warlock towards heavy armour to warplightning (which isnt effected by the banner) it out of existance (plus if in front rank of a unit they count as str 5 in c/c which aint bad either).

My main threats are other hords more hordy than mine and fast cavalry nightmares with lots of scroll caddies.

Major Defense
27-03-2006, 23:46
And probably lose as in the sea farers special shooting round they would shoot all your rattling guns then all your jezzails (any that survive would run after as they dont like panic tests) and lastly they would probably have a go at either the lord (going for lucky wounds) or the rats (clan bring their size down) without shooting youd face a long slog threw a killing ground of arrows as youd have no defense against there shooting and no units except the skitterleaping lord who could catch any of their units. thats why i take the banner and multiple warlocks as i cut down shooty armies and also skitterleap warlock towards heavy armour to warplightning (which isnt effected by the banner) it out of existance (plus if in front rank of a unit they count as str 5 in c/c which aint bad either).

My main threats are other hords more hordy than mine and fast cavalry nightmares with lots of scroll caddies.

You're starting to be a pain to bother communicating with. I didn't say that I would use ratling guns and you really need to read these posts and get the point that Sea Patrol special shooting does NOT cause panic tests. By the absurd way you describe the tactics you envision me using, I can tell that you have no idea how the Vermin Lord is used either. In short, stop being such a jerk in the very thread that you're asking for advice in. Or better yet, just stop.

Ganymede
28-03-2006, 03:49
I personally guarantee that my suggestions would not weaken your army in the least. When it comes to making a tourney worthy list, my suggestions will make a tough skaven army, as well as an army much more prepared to take on the seaguard.

h4rdriv3
28-03-2006, 06:35
Yeah i liked your idea Ganymede not so sure about dropping the rattlers tho was thinking of dropping the poisoned wind as unit is only 3 models and strictly only good for throwing off peoples plans in deployment now, was thinking of maybe either bumpiing up the censers a couple of models to 8 or adding 2 clan rats to each of the clan rat units....dont think i have enough for a decent unit of nightrunners with extra handweapons tell me what you think? anyways any monster or spell combos you know the sea farers are likely to use?

scatterlaser
28-03-2006, 12:17
I'd boost the Clanrat units to 27-ish rather than 23, if you can manage it (against everything, not just Seaguard). I find they're a lot more durable - they retain their rank bonus longer and don't panic as easily. As long as you have a decent number of models, most Seaguard lists shouldn't be that much of a threat. Even if you lose all your weapon teams and half your infantry by the time you get across the table, the stuff that's left should be able to deal with the handful of pretty mediocre HE units. Elves evaporate horribly quickly when exposed to Warp-lightning, so my plan would basically be to run across the table as fast as possible while electrocuting everything in sight. Unless this is one of the rare monster-heavy Seaguard lists, there's not too much they can do about it other than sit there, fire bows at you and then get swamped.

h4rdriv3
28-03-2006, 16:40
i could get them upto 25 and have umbranor on the monks by stripping out the remaining poisoned wind is this worth it? or would it be better to add 2 plague censer bearers and have umbranor...i know the extra clan rats would be usefull against sea elfs and maybe shooty dwarfs but i was thinking about other army combis like hord goblins or worse yet chaos knights/bretonians

Ganymede
28-03-2006, 17:48
Don't be afraid to ditch ratling guns; you have four. Three ratling guns can fund two large, fast units of giant rats. Those guys are just as good at flank deterrance as the guns are, plus they are far more useful against elves.

h4rdriv3
29-03-2006, 07:18
Don't be afraid to ditch ratling guns; you have four. Three ratling guns can fund two large, fast units of giant rats.

I only have 3 ratling guns and tend to keep them for causing panic in hoards and desimating anyone foolish enough to stay within their 15" range went against the rats as they are only range 12" with a charge altho they are more durable when shot at by sea guard.

For sake of argument i'll try my new list with extra clan rats see what happens then try without the ratlings and some giant rats or maybe another gutter runner pack as scouts to impede marchers/block firing lines