PDA

View Full Version : Tetto'Eko ability



whydiablo
08-03-2011, 17:13
LM' character Tetto'Eko has a ability call Herald of Cosmic Events, if this ability occur, all dobule roll when use Lore of Heaven count irresistible force.

So, I need to roll miscast table each time when I roll double dice under this ability@@?

jaxom
08-03-2011, 17:32
Reread the magic rules. It's all clearly in there in the section about abilities that cause miscasts or irresistible force. Specifically, unless the rule says that it causes both, it does not cause both. It only causes what it says it causes.

whydiablo
08-03-2011, 17:42
Oh, I miss to read the last sentence in magic rule.......

Masque
09-03-2011, 11:54
Reread the magic rules. It's all clearly in there in the section about abilities that cause miscasts or irresistible force. Specifically, unless the rule says that it causes both, it does not cause both. It only causes what it says it causes.

I would agree with your contention that the rules are 'clearly' written if they had not used the word 'automatically' in them.

Chris_
09-03-2011, 23:19
Jaxom is right in that it is clearly there if you read the rules, but his conclusion and reading are wrong.

The rules for abilities that cause IF other than on double 6's also cause Miscast, EXCEPT for those that cause the effect AUTOMATICALLY.

This means that Tetto'eko needs to roll Miscast for all his IF.

Masque
10-03-2011, 10:34
Can you give an example of something that does cause and irrestistable automatically?

Chris_
10-03-2011, 10:47
Can you give an example of something that does cause and irrestistable automatically?I don't know off the top of my head, but until the O&G book there was no model/item with Devastating Charge either... Was there a point to this or you just interested?

WDWOLF
10-03-2011, 11:14
Potion of Foolhardiness gives Devastating Charge.

Chris_
10-03-2011, 11:29
Potion of Foolhardiness gives Devastating Charge.Okay, missed that item ;) I still want to know if Masque was trying to make a point or not.

Masque
10-03-2011, 12:48
If there aren't any items or abilities currently that cause 'automatic' irrestistables or miscasts then that rule can be seen in one of two ways. It could exist to future proof the rules against a time when such an item or ability exists or GW could have a different definition of 'automatically' then most people and it applies to any and all items and abilities that lead to irresistables and miscasts. We don't really have any way of knowing which is correct.

Chris_
10-03-2011, 13:34
If there aren't any items or abilities currently that cause 'automatic' irrestistables or miscasts then that rule can be seen in one of two ways. It could exist to future proof the rules against a time when such an item or ability exists or GW could have a different definition of 'automatically' then most people and it applies to any and all items and abilities that lead to irresistables and miscasts. We don't really have any way of knowing which is correct.Seriously dude... I don't know what to say :wtf: You are trying to argue with the basis that 'automatically' doesn't really mean 'automatically' but something else that only GW knows...

Masque
10-03-2011, 14:52
I'm saying I don't think there is any way to know for sure what they mean. You don't think Tetto'Eko's ability counts as causing automatic irrestistables. This implies you either think there are other types of abilities that do or that you assume the rule that seperates irresistables from miscasts during automatic situations is just to future proof the rules. I'm more inclined to think that when they said 'automatically' they really should not have used that word to say what they mean.

Chris_
10-03-2011, 21:13
I'm saying I don't think there is any way to know for sure what they mean. You don't think Tetto'Eko's ability counts as causing automatic irrestistables. This implies you either think there are other types of abilities that do or that you assume the rule that seperates irresistables from miscasts during automatic situations is just to future proof the rules. I'm more inclined to think that when they said 'automatically' they really should not have used that word to say what they mean.The problem is that what you are "inclined to think" makes no sense if you actually read the rules as they are written. You are asking us to redefine a word just because it doesn't fit with what you think it should be. There is an easy way to be sure, read the rules and do what it says and not what you think it should say.

rb.uhs
11-03-2011, 02:40
This particular ability was discussed thoroughly only a short while ago (here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291685)). I realise it wasn't in the rules section but it covered interpretations.

Chris_
11-03-2011, 04:08
This particular ability was discussed thoroughly only a short while ago (here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291685)). I realise it wasn't in the rules section but it covered interpretations.I only see a few posts about the rules, the rest seems to be fluff/tactics. But it seems like there are two arguments as to why Tetto'eko should only roll miscast on double 6's:

1. Only double 6's IF causes Miscast.
2. Automatically does not mean Automatically.

The first one is refuted by the first two paragraphs of the actual rules of Miscast (pg. 34). Some people have mentioned Teclis and Book of Hoeth as a prime example to strengthen this argument, but that fails since the Errata clearly states that all other doubles IF do not cause Miscast, which the rules for Tetto'eko do not mention.

The second argument is not really a very good one, its foundation requires us to redefine the meaning of 'automatically'. Which is just silly...

rb.uhs
11-03-2011, 06:20
Tetto'eko

'Herald of Cosmic Events'.
The cosmic event is rolled for at the beginning of any one friendly Magic phase, and its effects last until the beginning of the next friendly Magic Phase. On a 2d6 roll of 3+, Tetto'eko's calculations are correct and the cosmic event occurs. All spells from the Lore of Heavens will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll that includes a double, provided it is not a miscast. If 2 is rolled, the Chaos Moon has corrupted Tetto'eko's calculations and all spells cast by the enemy will benefit from the above effect instead.
- - - - -
Lizardmen FAQ V.1.3

Page 69 - Tetto'eko, Herald of Cosmic Events
Ignore "[...] provided it is not a miscast [...]".
- - - - -
Warhammer 8th Ed. Rulebook

Page 34
"Note that some magic items and special rules talk of automatically triggering a miscast or irresistible force. This is the only occasion on which one can be had without the other."

Page 32
Irresistible Force
"If two or more 6's are rolled when casting a spell it has been cast with irresistible force. The spell will be cast automatically and cannot be dispelled, but the Wizard has to roll on the Miscast table when the spell has been resolved."
- - - - -

Specifically is why I linked the thread. Yes, I realise I am quoting myself but I feel all the relevant information is there and that should be enough evidence to convince as to only one interpretation of the rule.

Greyfire
11-03-2011, 14:43
rb.uhs, so you're saying he does not suffer miscasts on doubles, other than a double-six, correct? (Before anyone jumps on me, it's been a long week and I'm a big fan simple statements like "and so he does not suffer a miscast", so please help me out.)

Thanks!

Chris_
11-03-2011, 20:51
Lol, since he didn't refute what I said I just assumed he agreed with me.... I.e. Tetto'eko needs to roll Miscast for his each and every IF.

rb.uhs
12-03-2011, 06:07
In summary of the quote:
A wizard that rolls a double 1,2,3,4 or 5 when casting a Lore of Heavens spell while Herald of Cosmic Events is active (Either for Friendly or Enemy mages) will cast it with Irresistible Force. If a Lore of Heavens spell is rolled with a double 6, then the spell will be cast with BOTH Irresistible Force AND as a Miscast.

Chris_
12-03-2011, 06:38
In summary of the quote:
A wizard that rolls a double 1,2,3,4 or 5 when casting a Lore of Heavens spell while Herald of Cosmic Events is active (Either for Friendly or Enemy mages) will cast it with Irresistible Force. If a Lore of Heavens spell is rolled with a double 6, then the spell will be cast with BOTH Irresistible Force AND as a Miscast.Wrong, read the section you quoted on Miscast again. IF without Miscast is only when the ability/item/special rule grants you the IF automatically, so not when you have to roll a double. Then you can also read the two first paragraphs of the rules for Miscast which say that an IF is always followed by a Miscast, the stuff you quoted is the exception to this rule and does not include Tetto'eko's ability.

Kalandros
12-03-2011, 06:52
Here's one way to read it too:
Tetto'Eko's ability makes any double to be automatically an Irresistible Force.

Its automatic so Miscast does not occur unless its on a double 6.

Etc
Ring of Hotek makes all your doubles automatically Miscast unless its a double 6 then you get Irresistible Force but Ring of Hotek does not make all doubles to be both an IF + Miscast.

Book of Hoeth/Teclis do not get any Miscast when they get a double other than Double 6

Power Scroll is quite clear that you get both Miscast and IF from any double.


The rule is quite clear, to me, that when something calls for 'all doubles to IF' then it excludes the Miscast Part unless you meet the requirement of a double 6.

H33D
12-03-2011, 06:54
The Irresistible Force is not generated automatically it is generated on the roll of any double, so there is still a miscast.

Tetto'eko's ability just says that any double rolled results in Irresistible Force. A miscast is only ignored if the Irresistible Force is automatic, if you still need to roll something in particular then it is no more automatic than normal Irresistible Force.

EDIT: Sorry I just read the above post which was posted while I was typing my original post here. Both the rules for the Book of Hoeth and Teclis in the High Elf FAQ specifically say that they only Miscast on a roll of a double 6. Tetto'eko doesn't have that exception.

Chris_
12-03-2011, 07:04
Here's one way to read it too:
Tetto'Eko's ability makes any double to be automatically an Irresistible Force.

Its automatic so Miscast does not occur unless its on a double 6.

Etc
Ring of Hotek makes all your doubles automatically Miscast unless its a double 6 then you get Irresistible Force but Ring of Hotek does not make all doubles to be both an IF + Miscast.

Book of Hoeth/Teclis do not get any Miscast when they get a double other than Double 6

Power Scroll is quite clear that you get both Miscast and IF from any double.


The rule is quite clear, to me, that when something calls for 'all doubles to IF' then it excludes the Miscast Part unless you meet the requirement of a double 6.But then you are adding and warping the text to get it to say what you want, i.e. you are making a house rule. That is fine, but it is not what we are discussing here.

There is nothing automatic about the IF that the ability in this case causes, you still have to roll for it.

All your examples are either bad or working in my favour. Ring of Hotek, Book of Hoeth, Teclis all explicitly say when to roll Miscast and when it is IF. This is in their rules, i.e. the exception mentioned in the general rules for Miscast never applies. Power Scroll has a reminder that it also causes Miscasts when rolling the non-6 doubles.

Masque
12-03-2011, 07:43
Can anyone name any item or ability that causes an irresistable or miscast automatically? Does everyone think this rule only exists to cover cases that don't exist (yet)?

Kalandros
12-03-2011, 07:56
Can anyone name any item or ability that causes an irresistable or miscast automatically? Does everyone think this rule only exists to cover cases that don't exist (yet)?

Its just another Mat Ward problem where he can't write anything without being completely unclear.
Thats how I see it.

H33D
12-03-2011, 08:29
Tetto'eko's ability is actually very clear. It was in 7th edition and now in 8th edition the rules are very clear and specific about how a rule such as his would work.

Masque
12-03-2011, 08:55
Kalandros was referring to the clarity (or lack thereof) of the rule that seperates irresistables from miscasts when one is caused automatically.

Chris_
12-03-2011, 09:24
Can anyone name any item or ability that causes an irresistable or miscast automatically? Does everyone think this rule only exists to cover cases that don't exist (yet)?This really has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion but I think the Hellcannon has a misfire that causes automatic Miscasts. Just because there might not be one right now doesn't mean that we should redefine the meaning of a word...