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angrySCORCH62
08-03-2011, 20:48
Hi, I was wondering if the Imperium would use Void Shields to protect a small mining facility on a mining world?

If they did then would they ever use a bubble like shield (as in a shield that covers the facility and several areas of land around it)?

Thanks

Bad monkey
08-03-2011, 20:55
dont think they'd use it in that instance, maybe on a research station or maybe if the mine prodcuced a very rare mineral.

Id expect there to be no small amount of military presence if this was the case,

angrySCORCH62
08-03-2011, 21:03
ah right cheers, I don't suppose you'd know the military size of a small or average mining world mining world?

Like PDF or Imperial Guard

Scalebug
08-03-2011, 21:11
I don't see why not, if your narrative requires it...

Void shields are not *that* uncommon, and especially if the mining operation as suggested above is digging up something more than usually rare/valuable, or if the Adeptus Mechanicus is involved. Any private operation or mining guild/corporation/military-industrial-complex-deal would have to negotiate with the Adepts of Mars anyway.

Think an ancient shield generator, in an actual shrine in the facilities, discovered by explorators and maintained and outright worshipped by a small priesthood of Tech-Adepts, who also takes care of other technical issues in the mining complex.

Fingol23
08-03-2011, 21:24
Or if the planet suffers from hostile weather conditions then it could be equiped with a weak void shield to keep them at bay which could then be strengthened in times of war by the adeptus mechanicus. Something similiar occurs in the seventh gaunt's ghosts book.

AvatarForm
08-03-2011, 21:35
I don't see why not, if your narrative requires it...

Void shields are not *that* uncommon, and especially if the mining operation as suggested above is digging up something more than usually rare/valuable, or if the Adeptus Mechanicus is involved. Any private operation or mining guild/corporation/military-industrial-complex-deal would have to negotiate with the Adepts of Mars anyway.

Think an ancient shield generator, in an actual shrine in the facilities, discovered by explorators and maintained and outright worshipped by a small priesthood of Tech-Adepts, who also takes care of other technical issues in the mining complex.

If the facility in question is owned and operated by the AdMech, they will do what they deem necessary to protect their interests.

However, this is not free from internal politicking and resource availability. Though, the resources WILL become available if the site is believed to contain ancient STC cogitators or tech. The AdMech are just crazy enough to station titans and fleets around this planet if the importance is high enough.

Finally, you could also include that the AdMech are doing all this, while maintaining a charade that it is not what it is... though, Im not so sure that senior AdMech are capable of such thought... being mainly machine, they may be more direct in their approach.

Hedgehobbit
08-03-2011, 23:32
Hi, I was wondering if the Imperium would use Void Shields to protect a small mining facility on a mining world?
There's a shield generator Strategic Asset in Apocalypse. It's not exactly a Void Shield (more like a Knight Shield) but covers the same area. Since it's the same cost as the other strategic assets, I'd say that makes it pretty common. Rather than protect the mining facility itself, it would be more usefull protecting a defense laser emplacement. The 4th ed boxed set even gave the Ultramarines a portable shield generator called a Magna Power Field Projector.


If they did then would they ever use a bubble like shield (as in a shield that covers the facility and several areas of land around it)?
In the Battle Missions book, one of the missions, Linebreaker, has you trying to knock out a shield generator that, apparently, is powerful enough to keep any ships from landing on the entire planet. The wording is kinda vague. The Tau captured the shield generators in a suprise attack so it seems that it is not possible (or cost effective) to keep the shield up all the time (kinda like the shield on Hoth)

However, I'm confused by your original question. If the planet is indeed a mining world then there would be multiple, perhaps thousands, of different mining facilities around the planet. If that was the case, there is little need to protect each individual mining facility.

ShodansOwn
09-03-2011, 02:21
I'll have to try to track down my source (I just read Flight of Eisenstein, and I think it was in there) but I seem to remember recently coming across a moon-base or something that was protected by a void shield.

This next bit is just personal interpretation, but I feel like a land-based void shield (as opposed to floating in space) would extend underground. I can imagine there being some interference or maybe geological reactions if its traveling through miles of dense rock or natural metals. It would certainly make a good barrier against tunneling attacks, and I really cant place it but I think I've seen that in some fluff at some point.

Sorry my post is so vague, but I think what you're trying to do would work just fine. I'll try to find those references for you.

Edit: its full of typos, and seems slightly crack-poty, but I think hes a sanctioned author... http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__17_Void_Shields.shtml
Not sure if that helps, but its a very detailed description of how void shields work. If this is an accurate description, all void shields are potential warp gates waiting to be tripped open :S skeeeeetchy

Mannimarco
09-03-2011, 02:26
Im reminded of an age old IW story where they laid seige to a city with an ancient void shield so yeah its probable.

MagosHereticus
09-03-2011, 02:38
ah right cheers, I don't suppose you'd know the military size of a small or average mining world mining world?

Like PDF or Imperial Guard

they would have miners levies and a pdf force, pdf forces would likely be about 10 thousand although i dont have my tactica imperialis next to me atm, they would also have turret defences (possibly automated) and maybe some armour but not certain on that, also they will likely have lots of AA guns

IvanTih
09-03-2011, 13:11
I'll have to try to track down my source (I just read Flight of Eisenstein, and I think it was in there) but I seem to remember recently coming across a moon-base or something that was protected by a void shield.

This next bit is just personal interpretation, but I feel like a land-based void shield (as opposed to floating in space) would extend underground. I can imagine there being some interference or maybe geological reactions if its traveling through miles of dense rock or natural metals. It would certainly make a good barrier against tunneling attacks, and I really cant place it but I think I've seen that in some fluff at some point.

Sorry my post is so vague, but I think what you're trying to do would work just fine. I'll try to find those references for you.

Edit: its full of typos, and seems slightly crack-poty, but I think hes a sanctioned author... http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__17_Void_Shields.shtml
Not sure if that helps, but its a very detailed description of how void shields work. If this is an accurate description, all void shields are potential warp gates waiting to be tripped open :S skeeeeetchy

He's not sanctioned author(but he did some art for GW),but Void Shields dump energy into warp as per Path of the Warrior.

We also have theatre Void Shields in Titanicus.

Hedgehobbit
09-03-2011, 14:14
Edit: its full of typos, and seems slightly crack-poty, but I think hes a sanctioned author... http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__17_Void_Shields.shtml
Not sure if that helps, but its a very detailed description of how void shields work. If this is an accurate description, all void shields are potential warp gates waiting to be tripped open :S skeeeeetchy
It's getting to where you can barely flush a toilet in 40k without opening a warp gate.

...

ShodansOwn
10-03-2011, 21:10
It's getting to where you can barely flush a toilet in 40k without opening a warp gate.

...

Hey, the imperium has a lot of doo doo and it has to go somewhere...

Icarus
10-03-2011, 21:26
... and that's where Nurgle came from!

Next week: Learn about Warp-rift trash cans and why Tzeentch recycles!

Sai-Lauren
11-03-2011, 11:56
Hey, the imperium has a lot of doo doo and it has to go somewhere...
Processed into fertilisers and shipped out to agri-worlds IMO.

Back on topic - I don't think Void Shields are impermeable, they're more like the shields in Dune, which resist high energy impacts, but let low energy ones through, which is how Titans can step over things like infantry, tanks, and street furniture without creating a bow wave of debris in front of them. :)

As for them funnelling energy off into the warp, I guess someone's been reading the Judge Dredd Apocalypse War story recently. Why does everything have to go through the warp, why can't it be engineering and intelligence which solves the problem?

Still, at least it's not "a big C'Tan did it and ran away" :rolleyes:

Anyway, it's also stated that Orks use power fields on Space Hulks to seal in atmosphere, so it's highly probable that the other races do too.

GavT
11-03-2011, 12:05
As for them funnelling energy off into the warp, I guess someone's been reading the Judge Dredd Apocalypse War story recently. Why does everything have to go through the warp, why can't it be engineering and intelligence which solves the problem?


That is how void shields have worked since they were introduced in Adeptus Titanicus... But you're possibly right on the Apocalypse War inspiration, there is a lot of Dredd in the heart of 40K.

And what makes you think that creating an auto-reacting warp shield is anything other than high-tech engineering and intelligence?

Gav

Iracundus
11-03-2011, 12:10
That is how void shields have worked since they were introduced in Adeptus Titanicus... But you're possibly right on the Apocalypse War inspiration, there is a lot of Dredd in the heart of 40K.

And what makes you think that creating an auto-reacting warp shield is anything other than high-tech engineering and intelligence?

Gav

Also the warp in 40K IS a natural part of the universe in the same way that gravity and electromagnetism are. Its chief difference from these other forces is that it can be manipulated easily by a conscious mind with sufficient strength.

The warp is also shown as able to interact and be interacted with via material means. The most well known of course is the warp engine. Other forms include the Necron monolithic structures that as part of the Great Warding calm and pacify the warp, and Chaos religious structures such as Angron's building on Armageddon that do the opposite and attract warp energy.

Sai-Lauren
11-03-2011, 14:55
That is how void shields have worked since they were introduced in Adeptus Titanicus... But you're possibly right on the Apocalypse War inspiration, there is a lot of Dredd in the heart of 40K.

I thought they were energy field emitters that absorbed the impact energy, and then vented it off as heat originally. If heat build up became too much, the field collapsed until the heat could bleed off (or the generators melted), that's why Titans had several.

There were also Warp Missiles, which skipped around void shields by phasing in and out of the warp, and that doesn't seem too likely if Void Shields are at least partly there as well.



And what makes you think that creating an auto-reacting warp shield is anything other than high-tech engineering and intelligence?

Gav
It feels lazy, like it's saying "the warp did it" when there's already power fields (which also absorb energy and eventually collapse when the fuses blow), and rather than them being power fields v2.0 (needing more power to run, more labour intensive, expensive and controlled manufacturing to build, more maintenance in the field and so on), they're something else entirely.

Plus I doubt the denizens of the warp would pay no heed to large amounts of energy suddenly being redirected into their domain - I can imagine a daemon absorbing the energy, saying thanks, using it to punch a hole through to reality and the crew of the Warlord titan or Battlecruiser that shunted the energy across suddenly turning into a packed lunch. :)

(And yes, if that's caused inspiration, feel free to take it. :D)



The warp is also shown as able to interact and be interacted with via material means. The most well known of course is the warp engine.

Which I personally think of as something which generates certain fields, of particular wavelengths and amplitudes, that cause a hole between reality and the warp to be forced open - somewhere between starburst from Farscape and B5 jump gates, but with lots of arcing energy.

Kind of like standing at the corner of Oxford Street and Regent Street with a road drill, and not stopping until you reach the northbound Bakerloo line platform of Oxford Circus tube station. :)

But such things would have come from when humanity was in it's higher technical knowledge phase - the Imperium of 40k might think of it as magic, but the people that invented them (and remember, they predate the Navigators, who would have been the ones to play up the "flying through Hell" angle, partly because they're the only ones who can actually see it as such, but mostly to justify their extortionate fees ;)) would have done so to very well understood (at that time) scientific principles.

I also think of the warp as the 40k universe's one impossibility - the great scary unknown where your worst nightmares are merely the best case. But the more stuff that gets hung off it (psychics, warp creatures, FTL travel and teleportation, communication, vortex warheads and Distortion Cannon...), the more it becomes a known and cheapens it.

And sometimes (sorry, going off on a bit of a tangent here), as, Cuu in the Tanith novels shows, sometimes, the scariest thing is something known doing what it wants because it wants to, not due to the great unknown interfering because it's scary and evil. People can be monsters, egged on by a daemon on their shoulder on their own, they don't need any help from an actual daemon.

Iracundus
11-03-2011, 15:07
I thought they were energy field emitters that absorbed the impact energy, and then vented it off as heat originally. If heat build up became too much, the field collapsed until the heat could bleed off (or the generators melted), that's why Titans had several.

They do bleed some energy off as heat, and some off as light. However that is insufficient to explain how it stops some devastating blasts as the area isn't reduced to magma and people are not permanently blinded. The energy however must go somewhere.



There were also Warp Missiles, which skipped around void shields by phasing in and out of the warp, and that doesn't seem too likely if Void Shields are at least partly there as well.

The shields are not impermeable or they can perhaps be viewed as creating interference. That is why ships in BFG have to have their shields brought down before teleport attacks can work. Active shields interfere with teleporters.



It feels lazy, like it's saying "the warp did it" when there's already power fields (which also absorb energy and eventually collapse when the fuses blow), and rather than them being power fields v2.0 (needing more power to run, more labour intensive, expensive and controlled manufacturing to build, more maintenance in the field and so on), they're something else entirely.

How do we know for sure the power fields as used on Ork Gargants isn't another form of warp interfacing field? The only functional difference between the two lies in the ability of a void shield generator to not burn out on the first hit, but that may potentially be an engineering difference and not something to do with the mechanism of the field itself.



Plus I doubt the denizens of the warp would pay no heed to large amounts of energy suddenly being redirected into their domain - I can imagine a daemon absorbing the energy, saying thanks, using it to punch a hole through to reality and the crew of the Warlord titan or Battlecruiser that shunted the energy across suddenly turning into a packed lunch. :)

Who says the energy is in a form usable by a daemon? If daemons in realspace can be disrupted apart by energies and solid projectiles, couldn't they also potentially be at risk for some disruption if they were suddenly exposed to energy being dumped nearby?



I also think of the warp as the 40k universe's one impossibility - the great scary unknown where your worst nightmares are merely the best case. But the more stuff that gets hung off it (psychics, warp creatures, FTL travel and teleportation, communication, vortex warheads and Distortion Cannon...), the more it becomes a known and cheapens it.

The Eldar base their entire civilization off of it. It is a realm of another form of energy and with entities within it that may be hostile to material life. However it has always been available to manipulate and channeled for mundane uses, whether it be for cargo ships to travel through or a psyker flinging a bolt of flame to light his fireplace. It is the entities in the warp that can be problematic. The energy itself in 40K appears to be no more than just another fundamental part of the universe like gravity or electrmagnetism, to be interacted with and used.

Hedgehobbit
11-03-2011, 15:29
It is the entities in the warp that can be problematic. The energy itself in 40K appears to be no more than just another fundamental part of the universe like gravity or electrmagnetism, to be interacted with and used.
I don't know if it's part of the fluff anymore, but in the original Realms of Chaos book, it was pretty clear that the Chaos Gods only exists because of energy that's added to the warp. Everytime a psyker uses his power some excess energy is added to the warp which only make the chaos gods stronger. Even the astronimicon adds power to the chaos gods. That's why humanity is doomed.

However, I do agree, which is why I made the comment about toilets, that having everything work through the warp is just getting old and boring.

Sai-Lauren
11-03-2011, 16:04
They do bleed some energy off as heat, and some off as light. However that is insufficient to explain how it stops some devastating blasts as the area isn't reduced to magma and people are not permanently blinded. The energy however must go somewhere.
Radio waves, microwave, x-ray and gamma ray bursts, sound waves...

With the amount of energy involved, a void shield's going to make a mess of the EM spectrum anyway - I have a nice mental image of Titans striding around in the middle of an apocalyptic lightning storm. ;)

As for blindness, well, RT had lots of equipment for protecting people against things like photon grenades, conversion fields and the like, that could all be included in everyones base equipment, like communicators and a last resort melee weapon.



The shields are not impermeable or they can perhaps be viewed as creating interference. That is why ships in BFG have to have their shields brought down before teleport attacks can work. Active shields interfere with teleporters.

Maybe they interfere with the teleport warp tunnel, or maybe they interfere with the targetting of the exit point ;). Or maybe Andy C has seen too much Star Trek, or alternatively, it's just a rules mechanic to prevent fleets from racing up to the enemy and dumping off boarding parties.



How do we know for sure the power fields as used on Ork Gargants isn't another form of warp interfacing field? The only functional difference between the two lies in the ability of a void shield generator to not burn out on the first hit, but that may potentially be an engineering difference and not something to do with the mechanism of the field itself.

Because as I posted earlier, Orks use power fields to hold atmospheres in place (which would seriously pump energy into the warp), whilst Void Shields are more permeable (ok, yes, Guns of Tanith - IMO, Dan got that one wrong) because there's instances where titans step over things, which Gargants both can't really do and the Orks in command probably don't care about anyway. And neither collapses on a single hit, both absorb energy to a point, then fail - but void shields can potentially come back up again, power fields can't.



Who says the energy is in a form usable by a daemon? If daemons in realspace can be disrupted apart by energies and solid projectiles, couldn't they also potentially be at risk for some disruption if they were suddenly exposed to energy being dumped nearby?

In realspace, daemons become subject to the laws of realspace, plus it takes energy to maintain their presence against reality pushing them back, which injuries increase (hence the use of daemonhosts to reduce the energy requirements). But in the warp, it's their realm, and they can pretty much make the rules as they need to.



The Eldar base their entire civilization off of it.

Actually, that's another use of the warp I forgot, Wraithbone.

Icarus
11-03-2011, 19:56
Kind of a side-note but I think Ork Power Fields may work quite differently, as Explorator Tezla was commended for his studies on them. If they were just Ork versions of Void Shields I doubt the Xenarite Techpriests would have bothered trying to learn anything from them.

However that's not to say they definitely don't work on similar principles so er... yeah just thinking aloud here. :)

Iracundus
11-03-2011, 20:46
Radio waves, microwave, x-ray and gamma ray bursts, sound waves...

With the amount of energy involved, a void shield's going to make a mess of the EM spectrum anyway - I have a nice mental image of Titans striding around in the middle of an apocalyptic lightning storm. ;)

When I said bled off as light, I included other forms of light on the electromagnetic spectrum. The problem only gets worse if we start trying to include however high energy radiation as then it raises the issue of why plants and people are not being killed off by the discharge (or suffering severe radiation burns at the least).



Because as I posted earlier, Orks use power fields to hold atmospheres in place (which would seriously pump energy into the warp), whilst Void Shields are more permeable (ok, yes, Guns of Tanith - IMO, Dan got that one wrong) because there's instances where titans step over things, which Gargants both can't really do and the Orks in command probably don't care about anyway. And neither collapses on a single hit, both absorb energy to a point, then fail - but void shields can potentially come back up again, power fields can't.

We know Orks use force fields but do they use "power fields" specifically? There can be a difference. The Orks are known for their force field technology, of which power fields can be a subset.



In realspace, daemons become subject to the laws of realspace, plus it takes energy to maintain their presence against reality pushing them back, which injuries increase (hence the use of daemonhosts to reduce the energy requirements). But in the warp, it's their realm, and they can pretty much make the rules as they need to.

A god makes their personal realm with laws at their whim, but the average random daemon isn't described as doing so and appears entirely at the mercy of whatever happens to it. The warp also appears to have certain rules or tendencies as specific psychic techniques manipulating warp energy, such as Wraithbone creation, work reliably year after year century after century. Similar regularity occurs with things like Warlock powers, which the Eldar have been using for thousands of years, so evidently there is some constancy if such techniques can be reliably taught and passed down.

Sai-Lauren
14-03-2011, 13:08
When I said bled off as light, I included other forms of light on the electromagnetic spectrum. The problem only gets worse if we start trying to include however high energy radiation as then it raises the issue of why plants and people are not being killed off by the discharge (or suffering severe radiation burns at the least).
Considering the state that any conflict that needs a titan or defensive void shield will leave of the countryside, I doubt a little high energy radiation will contribute that much environmental damage. If it starts getting into fallout and radioactive dust, then yes, it's getting nasty. But any damage and casualties are just a cost of defending/ conquering that world.

I also think it's likely that Guard and Navy get regular doses of anti-radiation drugs, whilst the medicae regularly monitor for tumours as a part of the normal anti-mutation checkups. That's not to say they're always effective, after all, a certain character in the novels might be terminally ill after the effects of such radiation.

Poseidal
14-03-2011, 13:48
However, I do agree, which is why I made the comment about toilets, that having everything work through the warp is just getting old and boring.

The Warp is a natural force in 40k. Saying it's old and boring or lazy is the equivalent of saying: "Televisions are boring and lazy designs since they use electricity. Why do so many things use electricity and the electromagnetic force? why can't they use high-tech engineering and intelligence?"

Sai-Lauren
14-03-2011, 15:26
The Warp is a natural force in 40k. Saying it's old and boring or lazy is the equivalent of saying: "Televisions are boring and lazy designs since they use electricity. Why do so many things use electricity and the electromagnetic force? why can't they use high-tech engineering and intelligence?"

TV's aren't natural, it's more like saying everything uses wave power, and not just tidal electricity generation or waterwheels, but can somehow dump massive amounts of energy into the sea from the middle of a continent, without any repercussions. ;)

Poseidal
14-03-2011, 15:31
Hmm, maybe I should phrase differently.

I mean, Void Shields aren't natural; Distort Cannons aren't natural; Warp Drives - all use the Warp in the same way a TV will use electricity, along with several other appliances.

A Psyker is natural (or can be natural) and uses the Warp; in a similar way an Electric Eel uses electricity.


Note that electromagnetism is a lot more fundamental and has a lot more to it than these examples (which I chose for simple illustration); there's no reason to assume the Warp isn't any less fundamental and deep in the 40k setting.

Hedgehobbit
14-03-2011, 15:45
The Warp is a natural force in 40k. Saying it's old and boring or lazy is the equivalent of saying: "Televisions are boring and lazy designs since they use electricity. Why do so many things use electricity and the electromagnetic force? why can't they use high-tech engineering and intelligence?"
That's exactly why I made my point. The Warp is supernatural. The realm of nightmares and the source of mankinds unstoppable doom. To turn it into a natural force akin to eletricity is a mistake. As it making it so common that it is no longer terrifying.

Poseidal
14-03-2011, 15:59
With it as a natural force, it's much more than that though.

The natural forces are fundamental to everything, and with the Warp being a fictional one makes it so much more of a permeating thing throughout everyone in the setting; something no one there can really escape.

Idaan
14-03-2011, 16:10
That's exactly why I made my point. The Warp is supernatural. The realm of nightmares and the source of mankinds unstoppable doom. To turn it into a natural force akin to eletricity is a mistake. As it making it so common that it is no longer terrifying.
No it's not. It's inherent in the nature of the setting that a parallel dimension of emotion and concepts exists and has existed since the beginning of time. It's a force of nature just like gravity or strong nuclear force, that can be described with certain rules and understood - not perfectly, but that's because of the level of science possessed by the Imperium.

Sai-Lauren
14-03-2011, 16:49
I mean, Void Shields aren't natural; Distort Cannons aren't natural; Warp Drives - all use the Warp in the same way a TV will use electricity, along with several other appliances.

Actually, they use electricity like a TV uses electricity ;), the last two just use it to open a hole to the warp - like standing on a frozen lake and cutting a hole through the ice to reach the water below (and occasionally, the ice cracks and you plung through, or a polar bear comes up and eats you, so that's probably not a bad analogy for the warp).



A Psyker is natural (or can be natural) and uses the Warp; in a similar way an Electric Eel uses electricity.

Nope, Electric Eels generate an electric charge and then use it to stun their prey, Psykers can direct energy from the warp to cause effects in realspace, but don't generate that energy themselves. Maybe a bird soaring on the wind is a better analogy.

Although, back in RT Psykers used to generate their own power, with their level indicating their mastery, but psi-points started leaving with the Warlock/Farseer powers in the original Eldar army list (although they kept some to run the combat boost effects of their Force Weapons) and went for good in 2nd edition in favour of the 4th edition WFB winds of magic deal, which was itself replaced by "that's too much book-keeping, roll under your leadership" in 3rd.

Poseidal
14-03-2011, 16:55
Well, it's a bit difficult to make a direct comparison as they're purposefully different forces; I only wanted to make an illustration that forces can be harnessed and used and occur through man-made objects or in nature.

Looking deeper, there's much more to the forces (both Electromagnetic and the Warp) than that. And in the setting, the Warp is such a fundamental thing that it's completely expected to occur a lot.

Sai-Lauren
15-03-2011, 09:21
And in the setting, the Warp is such a fundamental thing that it's completely expected to occur a lot.

I disagree - the more it occurs, the less unreal and dangerous it appears.

Another analogy - look at Alien, and how little the titular creature actually appeared in the entire film. We only ever see small bits of it up until Ripley blows it out of the Narcissus' airlock.

Or Jaws, exactly the same thing (although that's more because the prop shark was a complete failure than any dramatic reasons), which helps ratchet up the tension.

Sometimes less is a heck of a lot more.

In universe, the warp isn't understood by anyone except the Eldar (and even then, I doubt they know that much).

Iracundus
15-03-2011, 09:49
It is the entities in the warp that make it truly dangerous. Granted uncontrolled release of large amounts of warp energy is also dangerous to life but so is any fundamental force that is not controlled.

The existence of large scale interstellar travel, communication, and commerce all fundamentally involve interaction with the warp. The warp is central to the functioning of the Imperium. Without functional understanding of at least some of the warp (the part that's not alive and incorporated into another entity like a daemon or Enslaver), that would not be possible. Likewise it would not be possible for psychic techniques to be passed down the generations if there were not some reproducibility and validity to the teachings about the warp.

The warp is perhaps best analogous to an ocean. There are living things in it of varying size, complexity, and threat level. There are some really alien entities living in its depths. However the water of the ocean can be channeled usefully to do work, and can be used as a method of travel. It is also used as a dumping site for waste, not just solid or liquid waste but think thermal pollution which is basically dumping of heat (i.e. energy) into the ocean whenever water is used as coolant and then flows into the ocean.

Sai-Lauren
15-03-2011, 13:30
The warp is perhaps best analogous to an ocean. There are living things in it of varying size, complexity, and threat level. There are some really alien entities living in its depths. However the water of the ocean can be channeled usefully to do work, and can be used as a method of travel. It is also used as a dumping site for waste, not just solid or liquid waste but think thermal pollution which is basically dumping of heat (i.e. energy) into the ocean whenever water is used as coolant and then flows into the ocean.

Don't disagree with the analogy, but dumping heat into the ocean causes problems of it's own - such as algal blooms, influx of non-native species attracted by the raised temperatures and so on. Which takes us back to warp creatures potentially using dumped energy to break through.

IIRC, most countries prevent such heat dumping now because of the environmental impact it causes.

Poseidal
15-03-2011, 13:35
Dumping untempered emotion into the Warp also causes problems. :D

Sai-Lauren
15-03-2011, 14:17
But unless it's a gestalt release, say as the result of mass hysteria, the amounts are comparatively tiny.

Imagine the amount of energy being released when something like a railgun round hits a void shield.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2011, 14:28
Another analogy - look at Alien, and how little the titular creature actually appeared in the entire film. We only ever see small bits of it up until Ripley blows it out of the Narcissus' airlock.

It was the Nostromo.

Poseidal
15-03-2011, 14:35
But unless it's a gestalt release, say as the result of mass hysteria, the amounts are comparatively tiny.

Imagine the amount of energy being released when something like a railgun round hits a void shield.

We don't know what the energy comparison is; the void shield could be a lot smaller than what a psyker does, for example.

Or another look: The Fall of the Eldar was due to their psyche and emotions; there would be just as much psychic technology present throughout the Empire (at least one piece per Eldar in the Galaxy) as there was people but that had little/no affect on the Warp while the Eldar Psyche of that many Eldar caused Slaanesh and the dissipations of the violent Warp Storms throughout the galaxy.

Sai-Lauren
15-03-2011, 14:53
It was the Nostromo.
Nostromo was the tug that was hauling the ore refinery, and the crew landed on LV 426 in, Narcissus was the shuttle Ripley escaped in after setting the Nostromo's engines to overload.

Although to be fair, the shuttle's not named in any of the movies (I think it's named in the novelisation of Alien).



We don't know what the energy comparison is; the void shield could be a lot smaller than what a psyker does, for example.

A Railgun round is impacting at somewhere about Mach 5. Assuming a 1 kg round, that's roughly 1 MJ of impact energy.

The brain works on roughly of 10-20 milliVolts current, or roughly 2.5e-20 J of energy.

And the psyker still only channels the warp currents to do what they want, they don't generate any energy themselves.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2011, 20:37
Nostromo was the tug that was hauling the ore refinery, and the crew landed on LV 426 in, Narcissus was the shuttle Ripley escaped in after setting the Nostromo's engines to overload.

Damn, I've been out-nerded :p I can't believe I didn't know this.